S05.E04: The Sons Of The Harpy

[Shanna]

Looking at the Unsullied discussion, even people there were noting that again, Rhaegar may not have kidnapped Lyanna so much as ran off with her, (the way Oberyn put it in Season 3,) and moreover the anvil of Stannis commenting that Ned was no Robert Baratheon who whored around raising questions as to where exactly Jon came from. Yeah, the Big Reveal is coming soon. In fact that may be another reason Sansa is at Winterfell...she might just discover something one day in those crypts she's been visiting.

I thought that as well when she was visiting lyannas grave.

This episode man. I have so many thoughts but I can't quite put them in order. I did live stannis and shireen! They were adorable. I'm wondering if Jon will send her away with Sam to protect her or if they will cut that.

Why are the sand snakes so stupid?

[nodorothyparker]

Barristan's actor has been giving interviews about being killed off, so that combined with previews of him laid out on a bier make it pretty certain he's gone. The actor is a book reader so he apparently was as surprised as anyone. It figures that we'll probably still be stuck with Gray Worm and his inability to enunciate clearly and more tedious speculation about what he may or may not have in his pants.

Edited May 4, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[nksarmi]

Are we completely sure the Sand Snakes won't try to crown Marcellas?  They said they wanted war, but crowning Marcellas queen could still lead to war.  And as I recall in the books, the people of Dorne had wanted war for decades and it was only the head of house Martell that refused.  In the books, he has good reason to refuse - so I'm interested in what motivation they will lay out in the show.

[WearyTraveler]

My new theory regarding the R+L=J is that Bran is going to see the events of The Tower of Joy, including a marriage, which would make Jon legitimate, not a bastard (remember that the rules were bent for the Targs, allowing them to marry their siblings, and Aegon The Conqueror was allowed to marry his two sisters). This vision will be the trigger for Bran wanting to leave the tree and head back to The Wall to tell Jon all about it, because Jon is "the prince that was promised" and the only one capable of stopping the White Walkers.

 

Bloodraven was too merged with the tree to leave, but Bran could do it, since he would not have been merging with the tree for too long. And, I think Bran might actually be able to walk again, because his experience with the tree will enable him to do so.  If that doesn't happen in the books, I think it could still happen in the show.  It would be a great way to get Bran back into the main story.

Edited May 4, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Hecate7]

Didn't Bloodraven say he wouldn't walk again, though? But he'd fly?

[WearyTraveler]

Didn't Bloodraven say he wouldn't walk again, though? But he'd fly?

 

I'm not sure what Bloodraven said on the show.  In the books, the three eyed crow from Bran's dream said that, I can't recall if Bloodraven himself said it again.  But if he did, Bloodraven also said that Bran couldn't communicate with anybody through the trees, yet he was able to say Theon's name, and Theon heard him.

 

I think Bloodraven is projecting his limitations onto Bran, but as we know, Bran is a pretty special boy.  It may be that Bloodraven doesn't know exactly how powerful Bran can be.

 

It's just a theory, though, but I have to believe Bran still has a major role to play in this story, as the story opened with him and his journey has been very epic.  I know Martin meanders a bit, but there's got to be a point to Bran's journey and his abilities.  What good is he growing roots and watching everything without intervening?  In the first book, after Bran sees beyond the Wall in his comatose dream, the three eyed crow tells him he needs to survive because "winter is coming"; that seems to strongly suggest that Bran has some major role to play in the upcoming war.  I don't see what role he could play stuck in a tree without being able to affect the events he sees.

[magdalene]

Bleh. After seeing the Faith Militant in action I can't possibly condone or cheer for anything they will do in the future to a certain character deserving of comeuppance.

 

That's the thing about this whole fictional universe - it gives you things you think you wanted, but in such a way that as a moral human being you can't enjoy it. At least I can't.

 

The R+L=J anvils were so heavy this episode I felt concussed just watching them fall. Wasn't that the thing GRRM tested the showrunners with? And they got the answer right and got to do the show.

[nodorothyparker]

I'll be honest that Bran's chapters have bored me so thoroughly since the second book that I can't even remember what the deal is with him and Bloodraven anymore beyond turning into a tree of some sort.  I know it's supposed to be important but I'm completely prophesied and visioned out and don't miss his story at all this season.

[simonesaysso]

I'll be honest that Bran's chapters have bored me so thoroughly since the second book that I can't even remember what the deal is with him and Bloodraven anymore beyond turning into a tree of some sort.  I know it's supposed to be important but I'm completely prophesied and visioned out and don't miss his story at all this season.

Ditto -- Wxcept that I get a sick feeling because it seems so clear that Bran's fate is to turn into a tree.   I don't care that he will be able to warg into weirwood trees anywhere in time and all over westeros.  If that were to happen to one of my children I would be horrified....

 

And while I'm being negative, let me just say that R + L = J also turns my stomach.  So Rhaeger Targaryen gets tired of being married to Elia, and she can't give him more than 2 kids, decides -- along with Lyanna -- to screw over the wife and pursue their passion because they just can't help it and justifying it by believing in prophesies.  Presumably, Elia is supposed to be thrilled to have a sister wife join the fold, and readers are supposed to be thrilled that Jon is legitimate and a Targaryen.

 

But on a more positive note, I'm thinking that Shireen may still be allowed to escape if Sam takes her, rather than baby Mance, away from the wall.

 

 

[ulkis]

And while I'm being negative, let me just say that R + L = J also turns my stomach.  So Rhaeger Targaryen gets tired of being married to Elia, and she can't give him more than 2 kids, decides -- along with Lyanna -- to screw over the wife and pursue their passion because they just can't help it and justifying it by believing in prophesies.  Presumably, Elia is supposed to be thrilled to have a sister wife join the fold, and readers are supposed to be thrilled that Jon is legitimate and a Targaryen.

 

I don't think readers are supposed to be thrilled he's a Targaryen, necessarily. I think everything in the books has made it clear that Jon's fate is tied in with the North/the Wall/the Starks, but I could be wrong.

 

I couldn't care less about that part, myself. I like that he's probably Lyanna's son, but I don't care about the Targaryens in general.

[Minneapple]

I don't care that he will be able to warg into weirwood trees anywhere in time and all over westeros.  If that were to happen to one of my children I would be horrified....

 

I would have quite a few questions for you if your kid could warg into a weirwood tree.

 

And while I'm being negative, let me just say that R + L = J also turns my stomach.  So Rhaeger Targaryen gets tired of being married to Elia, and she can't give him more than 2 kids, decides -- along with Lyanna -- to screw over the wife and pursue their passion because they just can't help it and justifying it by believing in prophesies.  Presumably, Elia is supposed to be thrilled to have a sister wife join the fold, and readers are supposed to be thrilled that Jon is legitimate and a Targaryen.

 

Well, we don't know the story behind Rhaegar and Lyanna. I don't think we're supposed to be "thrilled" that Jon is a legitimate Targaryen. We don't know Rhaegar, Lyanna or Elia's mindsets. It's just that it's the biggest mystery of the series and it will be good to finally know how it all came about.

 

So now...NO NEED TO READ THE BOOKS. R + L = J IS COMING TRUE. THIS IS NOT A DRILL.

[nodorothyparker]

I like Shireen a lot.  She's surprisingly normal and astute given her parentage and upbringing so I'm a fan of whatever keeps her out of the fires of her wackjob mother and whatever the hell Melisandre is supposed to be.  I'd be fine with it if that also gave Sam something to do other than moon endlessly over Gilly.

 

I've long accepted that Jon is most likely Lyanna and Rhaegar's secret son, and since this episode was hammering the subject pretty hard I'm guessing we're going to get confirmation of it sooner rather than later.  The implications of it are interesting storywise but I'm not particularly excited about it either because I've yet to really see any evidence that there was really much of anything good about any of the Targaryens.   They're all inbred to the point of making the Lannister incest seem like the work of rank amateurs and at least half of them seem to have been full bore balls to the wall crazy and just all around terrible rulers.  But I know we're not supposed to remember that because dragons.  Still, I wouldn't really blame Jon if he took a good look at his new family tree after all this comes out and says, no I'm good, thanks.  There's clearly worse things than being a high-born bastard.

Edited May 5, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[WearyTraveler]

And while I'm being negative, let me just say that R + L = J also turns my stomach.  So Rhaeger Targaryen gets tired of being married to Elia, and she can't give him more than 2 kids, decides -- along with Lyanna -- to screw over the wife and pursue their passion because they just can't help it and justifying it by believing in prophesies.  Presumably, Elia is supposed to be thrilled to have a sister wife join the fold, and readers are supposed to be thrilled that Jon is legitimate and a Targaryen.

 

Well, I'm not thrilled or disappointed, just theorizing, given the amount of anvils this episode had regarding Jon's parentage.  I'm trying to tie the possible confirmation of R+L=J with the story for the other characters given what we see on the show and what we know from the books.  While we are at it, we don't know if Rhaegar grew tired of Ellia, or if he married Ellia to fulfill the prophesy (Dany sees him and Ellia with baby Aegon, saying Aegon was the prince that was promised) and then wanted to move on with his life, having fulfilled his duty. We don't know how Ellia felt about the whole thing either way; according to the books, she and Oberyn were supposed to marry Jaimie and Cersei respectively, but that didn't happen because Tywin wanted something else.  Ellia might have hated the idea of being married to Rhaegar, for all we know.  Also, Ellia was raised in Dorne, were they are very much sexually liberated (at least in the books) and it's not uncommon for people to have multiple partners of any gender; the idea that she might be offended / felt cheated by Rhaegar loving, and even being sexually active with, someone else doesn't correspond to her liberated upbringing.

 

It seems important for the story, set in the fictional world of Westeros where a trueborn son is somehow "better" than a bastard, that Jon be a legitimate heir.  It doesn't matter to me, personally, if he is.

 

Finally, I'd like to add that I couldn't look at this story through a 21st century sensibility lens because it would be downright aggravating; I think if we're going to analyze this world and try to make inferences based on what happens on the show (like this episode's anvils about Jon's parents) and what we know from the books, we have to see it through the eyes of the Westerosi culture, applying the rules established by the creators (Martin and D&D).  You can't argue the morality of the characters choices using our standards because they are not the characters' standards.

[Winnief]

I've long accepted that Jon is most likely Lyanna and Rhaegar's secret son, and since this episode was hammering the subject pretty hard I'm guessing we're going to get confirmation of it sooner rather than later.  The implications of it are interesting storywise but I'm not particularly excited about it either because I've yet to really see any evidence that there was really much of anything good about any of the Targaryens.   They're all inbred to the point of making the Lannister incest seem like the work of rank amateurs and at least half of them seem to have been full bore balls to the wall crazy and just all around terrible rulers.  But I know we're not supposed to remember that because dragons.  Still, I wouldn't really blame Jon if he took a good look at his new family tree after all this comes out and says, no I'm good, thanks.  There's clearly worse things than being a high-born bastard.

 

Yeah, considering the Targaryen family history, I've always been of the opinion that it was a damn good thing that Jon took after Lyanna's side of the family-and not just in looks...and it helped that he was raised by the Starks as well.  Basically, he gets the dragon riding genes without any of the madness, narcissism, and other excesses of his father's kin.

 

Thing about Rhaegar is that while he was no rapist/kidnapper even by the standards of his time his behavior was considered scandalous.  He publicly embarrassed Elia and even if she would have been ok sharing him, fact is he left her and her babies alone in KL with his nutjob dad in the middle of a raging war that began in part because he couldn't be bothered to just tell Rickard Stark that he was taking Lyanna as his second queen and hey your grandkids will be in line for the Iron Throne! Robert would then just drown his sorrows in wine and other women.

 

Of course, even then the whole misunderstanding probably could have been cleared up peacefully if not for Aerys being a complete lunatic. 

 

For the record, my theory is that Rhaegar's second bride *had* to be Lyanna because AA was always destined to have Stark blood as well as Targaryen blood and Rhaegar may have known it.  He certainly would have known about the old Pact of Ice and Fire at any rate.  I think there's something about the Stark bloodline that's central to the treaty with the Children of the Forest which is also why Bran's with Bloodraven...and maybe why "There must always be a Stark at Winterfell." 

Of course if that's true then it's yet another mark against Boltons, Frey's, Lannister, and Baelish-great going guys you nearly extinguished the one House central to defeating the Undead Army.

[benteen]

LF noted that Stannis has the bigger army.  This is a change from what we've heard earlier although I assume that once he got the Iron Bank loan, he was able to hire a lot more help.

[ulkis]

I would have quite a few questions for you if your kid could warg into a weirwood tree.

Well, we don't know the story behind Rhaegar and Lyanna. I don't think we're supposed to be "thrilled" that Jon is a legitimate Targaryen. We don't know Rhaegar, Lyanna or Elia's mindsets. It's just that it's the biggest mystery of the series and it will be good to finally know how it all came about.

Yeah, plus, wasn't Lyanna just 15, 16? I doubt she knew or cared about the prophecy. She was probably just a reckless kid who fell in love and/or saw Rhaegar as a way out of her arranged marriage with Robert.

[Maximum Taco]

Are we completely sure the Sand Snakes won't try to crown Marcellas?  They said they wanted war, but crowning Marcellas queen could still lead to war.  And as I recall in the books, the people of Dorne had wanted war for decades and it was only the head of house Martell that refused.  In the books, he has good reason to refuse - so I'm interested in what motivation they will lay out in the show.

 

Ellaria is clearly the leader of that faction, and she seems to want to chop Myrcella into tiny tiny bits and mail her back to Cersei one piece at a time.

 

I suppose they could do a complete turn, but I don't see any reason to speculate that they will.

 

Personally I think Trystane will be filling Arianne's place as Queenmaker and Ellaria and the Sand Snakes may be filling Darkstar's role.

[GreyBunny]

Yeah, considering the Targaryen family history, I've always been of the opinion that it was a damn good thing that Jon took after Lyanna's side of the family-and not just in looks...and it helped that he was raised by the Starks as well.  Basically, he gets the dragon riding genes without any of the madness, narcissism, and other excesses of his father's kin.

 

As for the looks, the Ashara Dayne rumor could have served as a cover had Jon been born with silver hair and purple eyes.  Lucky for Ned he decided to return Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn to Starfall at about the right time in case Jon took after his bio-father.

 

Regarding Bran, I don't think he'll ever walk again.  He's a tree.  I think Rhaegar and Lyanna had a secret wedding under a heart tree and Bran will be able to see it and then tree-mail the information to Jon somehow.  In the book Bloodraven said Bran wouldn't be able to communicate with those he sees (he probably bases that on his own experiences) but I think Bran may grow to be stronger than Bloodraven and/or the Starks, Jon in particular, may be tuned in well enough to hear him.

Edited May 6, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Oscirus]

middle of a raging war that began in part because he couldn't be bothered to just tell Rickard Stark that he was taking Lyanna as his second queen and hey your grandkids will be in line for the Iron Throne! Robert would then just drown his sorrows in wine and other women.

 

To be fair, the Starks are stupid and nobody could have foresaw that they would be handle that situation so idiotically. But even if he did tell the Starks and Robert, I seriously doubt that "hey I want to take your daughter as my second wife. I know I'm ruining your arrangement with the Barantheons but I love her.  Is that cool?" Would have been sufficient enough to keep the peace with the Starks or Robert.

 

That being said, yea it was a prick move on his part  given that he should have at least had an inkling that it was going to piss people off.

 

Watching that episode again, and it amazes me how badly Margery is handling things. I know it must be annoying to have a weak husband, but suck it up, you're the queen, make sure you have him wrapped around your finger. Don't leave him alone with his mommy to be poisoned against you.

[Elkins]

But I admit I laughed hysterically at Tommen's newfound backbone. Then I felt horrible for him, because of the commoners yelling about him being an abomination. I know he's going to die, but man. :(

 

Ugh, I know, it's awful, isn't it? He was so horrified by the idea of shedding blood "right on the steps of the Sept," too. Probably the first -- hell, probably the only -- genuinely pious sentiment we've seen from this royal family, and he's the one getting all the "abomination!" hurled at him. Such a decent kid, it seems so terribly unfair.

 

 

I'm assuming Olyvar won't talk, because he seemed pretty ready to beat feet out of there, plus he was astounded that they were breaking into the brothel in the first place.

 

Huh. See, I got just the opposite feeling from that scene. It showed Olyvar fleeing from the brothel and in doing so, abandoning his clients to their fates. It seemed to me as if that scene might be there partly to establish Olyvar as a profoundly self-interested person. In other words, as someone who would be more than willing to throw Loras or anyone else to the wolves if he thought it would save his own skin. It left me with a very uneasy feeling about what Olyvar's role in this season's plot might be.

 

 

I can't see one reason why I'm supposed to be rooting for Ellaria and the Sand Snakes to torture and kill Myrcella because they have issues with a dead member of House Lannister.

 

Okay, I feel I must be missing something here. Why would you assume that you're supposed to be rooting for them at all? They're certainly not sympathetic characters in the books; why would they be on the show?

 

 

Personally I think Trystane will be filling Arianne's place as Queenmaker and Ellaria and the Sand Snakes may be filling Darkstar's role.

That's my suspicion as well. I'm expecting a three-way struggle over Myrcella this season, with the Sand Snakes trying to harm or perhaps capture her, Trystane trying to crown her, and Jaime trying to bring her back to King's Landing. And Doran trying to prevent all of the above -- which I suppose would make it a four-way struggle.

[Triskan]

That's my suspicion as well. I'm expecting a three-way struggle over Myrcella this season, with the Sand Snakes trying to harm or perhaps capture her, Trystane trying to crown her, and Jaime trying to bring her back to King's Landing. And Doran trying to prevent all of the above -- which I suppose would make it a four-way struggle.

 

 

Personally, I can definitly see the Sand Snakes in KL by the end of the season. 

 

My guess is that Jaime will be put in custody by episode 6 and in episode 7, Doran will dispatch the Sand Snakes to KL (at least for Nymeria I'd say) so they're not present when he releases Jaime in 9 and sets him free with Myrcella. This could potentially conclude with a speech to Trystane on his true intentions once Jaime's gone.

 

And in episode 10, using Littlefinger's TARDIS, one or two Sand Snakes (Nym and Tyene ?) could be present in the capital for a certain Walk.

 

That's all just speculation, but I could see the Dornish arc going that way.

[vibeology]

I didn't love Dorne in the books, but on TV it's a mess. The Sand Snake scenes were just bad TV. They stood around on a pile of indistinguishable sand and talked about how they all agreed with each other. Then they talked about Jaime being in Dorne, something the audience already knew. There was no real characterization and no new plot since we already saw that Eliria was out for revenge.

Also, I'm not looking forward to the plot where women are crazy and out for revenge and Doran/Trystane are calm, thoughtful and have the cool plan. Dorne was the place where women had agency in the books.

[Constantinople]

Also, I'm not looking forward to the plot where women are crazy and out for revenge and Doran/Trystane are calm, thoughtful and have the cool plan. Dorne was the place where women had agency in the books.

 

I don't see how calmness is synonymous with agency.

 

I also don't see how choosing to disobey one's lord shows a lack of agency.

[Avaleigh]

Ugh, I know, it's awful, isn't it? He was so horrified by the idea of shedding blood "right on the steps of the Sept," too. Probably the first -- hell, probably the only -- genuinely pious sentiment we've seen from this royal family, and he's the one getting all the "abomination!" hurled at him. Such a decent kid, it seems so terribly unfair.

 

Huh. See, I got just the opposite feeling from that scene. It showed Olyvar fleeing from the brothel and in doing so, abandoning his clients to their fates. It seemed to me as if that scene might be there partly to establish Olyvar as a profoundly self-interested person. In other words, as someone who would be more than willing to throw Loras or anyone else to the wolves if he thought it would save his own skin. It left me with a very uneasy feeling about what Olyvar's role in this season's plot might be.

 

Okay, I feel I must be missing something here. Why would you assume that you're supposed to be rooting for them at all? They're certainly not sympathetic characters in the books; why would they be on the show?

 

I totally agree about Tommen. I actually winced when he repeatedly had the word abomination thrown at him because it's clear to me at least that he isn't one and neither is Myrcella. The level of venom in general that is directed at people in this series who are born illegitimately is truly sickening. (I know it isn't only about the legitimacy in Tommen's case.) I've noticed too that the smallfolk seem to have very little idea of who's on their side and who looks out for their best interests when it comes to highborn characters. With rare exceptions like Margaery (who IMO isn't sincere anyway when it comes to supposedly being all about the smallfolk)* it seems like the common people see the highborns as being one in the same. Whether they're happy and cheering to see honorable Ned Stark getting his head chopped off or amused at the sight of the High Septon being whipped naked through the streets of King's Landing--they just seem like they're happy to see any highborn person brought low whether that person was helpful to the lowborn people or not. Tyrion was a great Hand like Varys says but the smallfolk seem to have little sense of this stuff so Tyrion's efforts weren't appreciated.

 

Tommen probably is the best choice to be the King and I agree with Tywin that he seems to have the right qualities and think that Tommen might have even been a great King if he'd been surrounded with the right people. Imagine if Tywin, Jaime, Stannis, Olenna, Margaery, Cersei, etc. Imagine if they'd all been able to work together to make Tommen's reign as strong as it can be. He basically would have been unstoppable IMO. Unfortunately, the incest keeps certain people from seeing and appreciating the bigger picture and I think that's too bad. Imagine if Stannis had actually acted like an uncle to Tommen and helped him rule instead of stubbornly wanting the kid to die because he supposedly doesn't have the right blood. 

 

Re: Ellaria and the Sand Snakes--

 

Comments from D&D in addition to comments from viewers about how understandable it is that Ellaria and the Sand Snakes completely blame the Lannisters for Oberyn's death. I'm getting the impression that I'm supposed to want to see the Sands fight back even if it means going through Myrcella to do so and that this is somehow root worthy to people simply because they're standing up to the supposedly evil Lannisters. 

 

I also can't shake the feeling that we're supposed to think that Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are these cool badasses (I get this impression in the books as well save for Ellaria) and so far they've just made me roll my eyes. They gruesomely kill the man who just helped them out by giving them valuable information? Oh, but Obara does her own fighting so I guess I'm supposed to focus on the awesome potential that can come from that.

 

On the show I feel like the female characters who are skilled when it comes to fighting (Brienne, Asha, Ygritte, Arya, etc.) tend to be played sympathetically and so far I don't think Obara is going to be an exception. The fact that they put KCH in the role only makes me more convinced of this. 

 

As for Olyvar, my early guess is that he's going to factor in to bringing Margaery down as well in order to attempt to save his own ass. I don't think it's going to score Olyvar that many points to confirm what everybody already knows about Loras so maybe he'll end up giving up a name like Margaery's. I can see how he might think that sort of information might be more valuable and might prove to the fanatics that he'll do whatever it takes to be of use to them. Littlefinger seemed to know that Margaery was no innocent so I don't think it's that much of a stretch that Olyvar could have been told various sexual details about the higher ups at King's Landing Cersei and Jaime included. 

 

*Re: Margaery and the smallfolk--

Seeing the HS interact with the smallfolk just highlights to me how superficial all of Margaery's efforts towards the smallfolk have been and it makes me think that the HS will be able to easily see through how phony she is underneath all the rosy smiles. 

Edited May 5, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Holmbo]

I think we can regard the sandsnakes however we want. D&D has stated they don't consider Tywin a villain but I still considered him one and never felt like the writing was suggesting anything else. I'll probably just consider the sandsnakes villains as well though possibly somewhat relatable which Tywin was as well.

[Holmbo]

Also good point Avaleigh about all the people who could have helped Tommen be a good ruler just fighting each other instead. Throw in Varys as someone who could have gotten behind him too.

In the book I felt like at least Margaery and Loras showed an interest in him growing up to be a good ruler. I wish they would have kept that in the show.

[nksarmi]

Well, I think there is at least the possibility that the show will have Margaery's grandmother come back and instruct her in how to help Tommen be a good king.  I wonder if they aren't going to do the queen trials at all now that they have had the marriage consummated and Loras arrested.  Perhaps if grandmother returns, she will be the one to inspire Cersei's arrest but Margaery will be left to help Tommen overcome challenges to his rule - which could come from accusation of Cersei/Jamie incest so that Stannis would be the rightful king, Dorne trying to crown Marcella, and the potential of Dany coming and taking the throne back.

 

I still want Tommen and Marcella spared and I don't know that I truly believe they will die before Cersei does based on the prophesy.  I think we can interpret "gold will be their shrouds" as they will die before they gray.  And I'm not sure Margaery has to take Cersei's children from her to take "all that she holds dear."  Yes Cersei is perceived as truly loving her children on the show, but if Cersei's image is destroyed, her children and Jamie may turn their backs on her on their own.  And now that Cersei has gone after her brother, Margaery just might prove herself capable of doing Cersei some serious damage without costing Tommen the crown.

 

I must say that I'm rather disappointed that we don't seem to be moving toward Jamie becoming disenchanted with Cersei this season.  To me, his story in the Riverlands and his story with Brie were his biggest saving graces.  But it also helped a lot that he got sick of Cersei as well.  I was hoping to see some of this come about this season, but I'm not sure what could happen in Dorne to develop his character the same way.  Unless they make him come face to face with his father's crimes against their princess and her children as he is trying to rescue Marcella.  I must admit that it would be almost awesome if somehow they convince Jamie to back Marcella as queen.

[Avaleigh]

Also good point Avaleigh about all the people who could have helped Tommen be a good ruler just fighting each other instead. Throw in Varys as someone who could have gotten behind him too.

In the book I felt like at least Margaery and Loras showed an interest in him growing up to be a good ruler. I wish they would have kept that in the show.

I agree that this would have been nice. Margaery and Loras both wanted to build Tommen up in the books while show Margaery seems more concerned with sending Cersei away and now of course she's preoccupied with freeing her brother. I agree too that it's odd that Tommen doesn't seem interested in attending any small council meetings especially when I consider that Tywin told Tommen that this was one of Robert's failings. That's the sort of thing I would think that would stick in a kid's mind when I consider that he was being told this as he was looking at his older brother's corpse, the older brother who was 'not a good king'. I'm surprised that Margaery hasn't suggested he attend or even want to attend herself. Instead she's shown giggling with her ladies. I realize they only have so much to show certain things but it's stuff like this that make me go up and down with her character.

 

When Loras and Jaime bumped into each other at the PW I was sort of hoping that we would get a little more of that clash further down the road by maybe having Loras be Tommen's master at arms or something. Jaime and Loras seem to have a grudging respect for each other in the books but this element to their relationship hasn't so far been present in the show. I think they've only been in group scenes together apart from that brief interaction. 

 

I must say that I'm rather disappointed that we don't seem to be moving toward Jamie becoming disenchanted with Cersei this season.

I felt it in the scene where he talks about wanting to die in the arms of the woman that he loves. I think he was talking about Cersei and I think Bronn's reply bothers him because he knows perfectly well that Cersei probably doesn't want the same thing. Or maybe she does even though she doesn't associate Jaime with the prophecy. I think in general Cersei totally wants to die last. I don't think that she'd want to die in the arms of Jaime. 

Edited May 5, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Funzlerks]

I was really confused when people thought he was talking about Brienne. This season opened with Jaime declaring his love and faithfulness to a pretty indifferent Cersei.

I am not a Jamie fan but I did really like the weirdness and complete fuckedupness of the Riverlands/Trident/Brotherhood without Banners/Stoneheart story. It was not only a good way to see how Jaime might actually become a better person somehow, but it also made you realize as a reader that these wars had actually ruined the lives of all the common people of a large swath of the country and no real help was coming for them because all the lords were concerned with holding the various large keeps. I am very disappointed because Dorne completely lacks the best elements of putting Jaime there. In the book, Jaime is navel gazing about things Cersei said years before and the whole world is turning into a zombie apocalypse with wolf packs descending on broken soldiers and regular people.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Funzlerks

[nodorothyparker]

As much as I really love Jamie/Brienne, I didn't think he was talking about Brienne either at that point.  I did think Bronn's questioning him about it along with his commentary on the ship about how Cersei must have reacted to knowing that Jaime freed Tyrion was starting to set some wheels in his head turning for him.  Or maybe that's wishful thinking because Jaime's storyline about starting to find his own way and finally seeing Cersei clearly is the primary saving grace of Feast For Crows for me.  I can't remember for certain without going back and rewatching season 2, but wasn't Bronn there when Tyrion was blackmailing Lancel about his relationship with Cersei?  Since the show missed the prime opportunity of having Lancel lay that particular hard truth on Jaime when the characters were in the same place for the first time since maybe season 1, I'm hoping maybe Bronn can do it.  Because right now, I'm having a hard time seeing how we're going to get the same character growth in Dorne too.

 

I did like the Tarth sighting and the wistful eyes as kind of a reminder that Brienne is still out there somewhere and saw something better in him.

Edited May 5, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[Holmbo]

I think in the show Jaime will return to kingslanding with Myrcella and two of the sand snakes (without Bronn cause he'll be dead). Either at the end of this season or the beginning of the next. He will get there before Cersei's trial and refuse her to her face.

Him coming back to KL and seeing how horribly Cersei's screwed up and her, presumably, totally changed attitude to him now when she needs him will make him refusing to fight for her feel plausible. He can even be conflicted about it. It's not very likely that he'd win.

What he'll do after that I have no idea. Maybe head for casterly rock to try to convince Kevan to come back and run into trouble on the road.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Holmbo

[Starving Writer]

I can see why the showrunners went with a vengance driven Ellaria.  She knows exactly what happened at the Kings Landing Trial by Combat.   But she lost the love of her life, she doesn't care that it came out that way partly by his own decision making.  She lost him and House Lannister continues to skate on by despite all the House does to others.

 

I'm super curious about what's ahead for House Tyrell.  I'm now questioning whether we will get the Queen Trials.   I admit in the book I got caught up in the chaos and excitment and scandal of both Queen Margaery and Queen Cersei on trial for their very lives BUT if they are going to both make it out of the trials VIA the book, I can understand why the showrunners chose not to pour so much into it.   Could we get another suprise and unplanned execution by a High Sparrow run amuck only  this time the executed is Loras?   

 

Mace being sent to Bravos with Meryn Trant (I now assume he will fall to the Hand of the King curse in TWOW).

 

I know many people have issues with it BUT I'm really enjoying LF and Sansa.   They are in so over their head and have know idea.  LF is a complete cockaroach but I assume that's how he survives.   While Sansa is left holding the bag aka having to stay as a "guest" of House Bolton.   Liked how she taunted LF with the fact that the next time they meet she is likely to be a married woman.   I also now question what will happen to Sansa if Stannis wins Winterfell.  He insisted Jaimie be referred to as a Knight ("whatever else he is") and Davos can attest that Stannis believes in punishments for a crime no matter the reason, Sansa is a Lannister, wanted for regicide, was peripherally involved with the death of Lady Regent of House Arryn, and is now conspiring with Littlefinger and betrothed to Ramsay Bolton.   Stannis may not be pro-Sansa.

I think you just outlined the downfall of Littlefinger.  Especially considering that LIttlefinger does not have one vital piece of information -- the fact that Bran and Rickon are still alive and out there somewhere.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Stannis discover this (either from Sam or Jon Snow), and of course Stannis being Stannis he'll immediately consider Bran (then Rickon) to be the legitimate heir to Winterfell, and will do everything in his power to find Rickon.  

 

And then there's LIttlefinger, all smug because he put all of his eggs into the Sansa basket and believing that rigid, unbending Stannis will have no choice but to accept Littlefinger as the protector of Winterfell's heir.  Except, oops, there's Rickon, so Stannis doesn't even need Sansa. And Sansa is a Lannister / Bolton traitor who just happens to be wanted for regicide.  Stannis might let Sansa live (albeit punished harshly), if just so he doesn't piss off the North, but Littlefinger's toast.  

[Shanna]

I don't think stannis would consider Sansa a traitor. She has so obviously been a pawn in others games. And I think stannis likes Jon enough that he might take his lead in this.

I am amazed littlefinger just left Sansa at winterfell. This is going to be so strange watching what the show writers think is a good plot.

I'm so sad they killed ser barriston.

[hacman00]

It seems important for the story, set in the fictional world of Westeros where a trueborn son is somehow "better" than a bastard, that Jon be a legitimate heir.  It doesn't matter to me, personally, if he is.

 

 

 

Being a legitimate child might be more beneficial if you need to inherit lands, titles, and other BS.  Somehow, however, I don't think White Walkers and Dragons give a shit if your name is Snow, Stark, or Targaryen.

Edited May 6, 2015 by hacman00

[jeansheridan]

 

She isn't getting any, nor will she, because of the greyscale. It's just like the way Tyrion got no takers because of his dwarfism, despite being one of the most eligible bachelors in every other way.

I think a crippled Bran would be a good match for Shireen.  If Stannis wins and gets on the throne, then he can consolidate his power  by marrying his daughter to the Warden of the North.  Shireen can't rule (female!)  but I see Northerners being much more forgiving of her her scales.  There are times when I wish the series would REALLY jump time and move forward.  Like it would be great if next season we were smack in the middle of Winter and fighting the White  Walkers. 

 

BTW, I think Bran is awesome and would be an excellent catch.  It just seems like his disability is viewed as a major tragedy by most of the people in Westeros.   The fact that he is vastly brighter than Robin and more of a leader than Tommen seems to escape most people (on the show, not fans).  My dream ending for him is that he takes control of a dragon and rides back to Winterfell like a total badass.  And he and Shireen rebuild the Stark dynasty.  And Book Sansa can marry young Griff and make a happy ending for another Stark/Targaryan pairing.

 

On another note, I wonder if seeing Tarth is foreshadowing for Jaime and Marcella to hide out there.  It's a relatively quiet part of the world, two blonds won't stand out, Brienne's father is loyal to the crown (if he accepts Marcella is Robert's).  I just think it was odd they had him see Brienne's home and we get a story from Brienne about her home.  I hope the show tells us about how Brienne's father helped her learn to be a fighter.  I know he's always off page but he seems like a good dad.  A Ned Stark kind of dad.

Edited May 5, 2015 by jeansheridan

[Gudzilla]

If Stannis didn't consider Joffrey to be king I don't think he would consider Sansa guilty of regicide.

[Avaleigh]

I think in the show Jaime will return to kingslanding with Myrcella and two of the sand snakes (without Bronn cause he'll be dead). Either at the end of this season or the beginning of the next. He will get there before Cersei's trial and refuse her to her face.

I don't think that Jaime will tell Cersei to her face that he won't defend her only because there's too much build up for when Jaime and Cersei see each other again in the books that I feel like there's still more in store for Jaime before he ends up in KL again. The last time Jaime and Cersei separated Jaime fought in a war, was imprisoned for a year, and lost his hand. It altered his personality and changed their relationship. This next separation I feel like the same thing is going to happen in that Jaime is going to deal with huge life changing shit and by the time he sees Cersei again it will probably just be in time to keep her from burning KL to the ground. I'm not sure that the trip to Dorne will be enough unless Myrcella ends up being killed somehow and even then I feel like that would make him inclined to want to help Cersei since he'd have failed in protecting their daughter. 

 

That being said I actually really, really, really like the idea of Jaime telling Cersei to her face that he won't be her champion. Seeing her get turned down by her twin of all people when her life is at stake is just the sort of comeuppance that Cersei needs in order to emphasize how all of her horrible decisions have finally even turned the one person who has always sworn to protect her away from her. She'd positively lose her mind and it would make for a great scene. 

On another note, I wonder if seeing Tarth is foreshadowing for Jaime and Marcella to hide out there.  It's a relatively quiet part of the world, two blonds won't stand out, Brienne's father is loyal to the crown (if he accepts Marcella is Robert's).  I just think it was odd they had him see Brienne's home and we get a story from Brienne about her home.  I hope the show tells us about how Brienne's father helped her learn to be a fighter.  I know he's always off page but he seems like a good dad.  A Ned Stark kind of dad.

Yep, I get that impression about Brienne's father too. His reaction to Brienne wanting to fight was basically the same as Ned's reaction to learning about Needle. 

 

I love the idea of Jamie and Myrcella quietly hiding out on Tarth but that's way too sweet and simple for this series.

 

I can't decide whose life is more in danger right now Myrcella or Shireen.  

[benteen]

I wouldn't mind a detour into Tarth but I doubt Brienne's dad knows that much about her friendship with Jaime. 

 

Selwyn and Brienne seems one of the better father/child relationships in Westeros.

[magdalene]

I too am dreading what Tommens fate will be. That poor sweet boy. I so wish him safe somewhere playing with  Ser Pounce. Somebody upthread wanted Jaime and Myrcella to hide out on Tarth. Can Tommen join them there?

[Ambrosefolly]

I think a crippled Bran would be a good match for Shireen.  If Stannis wins and gets on the throne, then he can consolidate his power  by marrying his daughter to the Warden of the North.  Shireen can't rule (female!)  but I see Northerners being much more forgiving of her her scales.

According to what I read, she can rule or to Stannis credit, wants her to rule. If anything happened to him, he still wanted his army to put her on the Iron Throne and was having her tutored in geography, history, religion, and classical literature so she can be a competent ruler one day.

[Independent George]

Aerys clearly failed Rhaegar by not hiring J. Walter Weatherman to teach him to Always Leave A Note.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Independent George

[GreyBunny]

I am not a Jamie fan but I did really like the weirdness and complete fuckedupness of the Riverlands/Trident/Brotherhood without Banners/Stoneheart story. It was not only a good way to see how Jaime might actually become a better person somehow, but it also made you realize as a reader that these wars had actually ruined the lives of all the common people of a large swath of the country and no real help was coming for them because all the lords were concerned with holding the various large keeps. I am very disappointed because Dorne completely lacks the best elements of putting Jaime there. In the book, Jaime is navel gazing about things Cersei said years before and the whole world is turning into a zombie apocalypse with wolf packs descending on broken soldiers and regular people.

 

One of the things that really impressed me about Jaime's Rivelands tour is that it demonstrated that he's an effective and fair administrator with diplomatic skills.  His identity is so wrapped up in being a warrior and the loss of his hand left him bereft, but it's clear he has other talents and would make a very good adviser or even Hand to a king.  He dealt with the latest Bracken/Blackwood feud, got the Tullys to give up (even though the Blackfish slipped through his fingers), dealt with Jeyne Westerling's horrible mother, went out of his way to help the serving girl Pia when she was nothing to him, and understands the food situation for the smallfolk is dangerously dire and is about to get even worse and is searching for solutions.  Bummer that that miserable zombie Stoneheart seems to have taken him out of commission for the time being and hopefully not permanently.  He was doing a good job.

 

Aerys clearly failed Rhaegar by not hiring J. Walter Weatherman to teach him to Always Leave A Note.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a note and it's one of the many things stashed away at Greywater Watch.

Edited May 6, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Avaleigh]

One of the things that really impressed me about Jaime's Rivelands tour is that it demonstrated that he's an effective and fair administrator with diplomatic skills.  His identity is so wrapped up in being a warrior and the loss of his hand left him bereft, but it's clear he has other talents and would make a very good adviser or even Hand to a king.  He dealt with the latest Bracken/Blackwood feud, got the Tullys to give up (even though the Blackfish slipped through his fingers), dealt with Jeyne Westerling's horrible mother, went out of his way to help the serving girl Pia when she was nothing to him, and understands the food situation for the smallfolk is dangerously dire and is about to get even worse and is searching for solutions.  Bummer that that miserable zombie Stoneheart seems to have taken him out of commission for the time being and hopefully not permanently.  He was doing a good job.

It's Jaime's handling of the Riverlands that makes me feel that he would have been a good king given the right circumstances. 

[Brn2bwild]

I liked the Winterfell crypt scenes this week, but wish that they had been a little more mournful.  Sansa's back in her childhood home for the first time in years, only it's desecrated and her entire family is dead, for all she knows.  It's one thing to be so emotionless about it in front of King's Landing enemies, but alone in the dark?  Let her remember, lose her composure even for a moment.  I think Sophie Turner could have done a pretty heartfelt scene, so I blame the writers/director/etc. for not staging it as such.  Not even a few mournful notes a long the lines of the previous Stannis-Shireen scene.

[paramitch]

It's weird. I'm both petrified at where this season is going because it feels so wildly off track. Yet it's also so much fun. It also feels kind of exhilarating too. For instance, I'm absolutely loving the idea of Sansa as the 'Fake Arya' of Winterfell even if it terrifies me, as well. I'm hoping they don't go too off course, but for now, I'm all in.

 

I'm also intensely curious about Jaime and Bronn in Dorne, I love the High Sparrow (but I've always adored Pryce), and I'm interested in the events at The Wall for the first time ever.

 

The fun part is, as a bookwalker, this season for the first time makes me feel unspoiled. I was shocked at Jojen's death last season, and shocked again this week when Barristan appeared to lose his battle. Stuff like that is awful but so much fun because suddenly, the playing field is leveled and I don't know what will happen next. 

 

The only thing I DON'T like about D&D's approach this season is that, to me, it shows just how much (incredibly) extraneous and immaterial material lies in Martin's books -- and that hardly any of it really matters. With the huge cuts in the plots from Lady Stoneheart, to the Ironborn to Quentyn, Darkstar, Jeyne/fArya, the show has seriously easily cut at least a full novel's worth from the show, and with very little fallout or effect on the actual story. Which makes me cranky, as it's something I can't unsee: that Martin is writing these incredibly huge, overlong tomes in which 1/3 of the action literally doesn't matter at all. I wish he'd just edit himself better or allow his editors to do so (which they won't -- he has too much power at this point, and every page is another dollar in everyone's coffers). 

 

I'll be honest that Bran's chapters have bored me so thoroughly since the second book that I can't even remember what the deal is with him and Bloodraven anymore beyond turning into a tree of some sort.  I know it's supposed to be important but I'm completely prophesied and visioned out and don't miss his story at all this season.

 

I have to say this loud and proud: I love Bran, I love his plotline, I've always loved it, and for me it remains one of the most powerful stories in "Game of Thrones."

 

So many times, I've heard people talk about Bran's story being boring, being too quiet, and that "nothing happens." I don't understand this. I watch this show and read fantasy to be taken away to another world and time. Bran's story does this gorgeously, and the underlying resonance that I'm watching a paraplegic orphan with psychic powers who's seeking some kind of heroic destiny makes it all that much  more moving to me.

 

I also love pretty much everyone Bran's shared a scene with -- especially Osha, Meera, Jojen, and more, and I'm still completely invested in his plot and outcome. More than anyone else, I feel like Bran is the one whose story offers clues about how this will all resolve, and I also think he's going to hold the key to controlling the dragons and saving the people of Westeros.

Edited May 6, 2015 by paramitch

[Avaleigh]

It's weird. I'm both petrified at where this season is going because it feels so wildly off track. Yet it's also so much fun. It also feels kind of exhilarating too. For instance, I'm absolutely loving the idea of Sansa as the 'Fake Arya' of Winterfell even if it terrifies me, as well. I'm hoping they don't go too off course, but for now, I'm all in.

 

I'm also intensely curious about Jaime and Bronn in Dorne, I love the High Sparrow (but I've always adored Pryce), and I'm interested in the events at The Wall for the first time ever.

 

The fun part is, as a bookwalker, this season for the first time makes me feel unspoiled. I was shocked at Jojen's death last season, and shocked again this week when Barristan appeared to lose his battle. Stuff like that is awful but so much fun because suddenly, the playing field is leveled and I don't know what will happen next. 

 

The only thing I DON'T like about D&D's approach this season is that, to me, it shows just how much (incredibly) extraneous and immaterial material lies in Martin's books -- and that hardly any of it really matters. With the huge cuts in the plots from Lady Stoneheart, to the Ironborn to Quentyn, Darkstar, Jeyne/fArya, the show has seriously easily cut at least a full novel's worth from the show, and with very little fallout or effect on the actual story. Which makes me cranky, as it's something I can't unsee: that Martin is writing these incredibly huge, overlong tomes in which 1/3 of the action literally doesn't matter at all. I wish he'd just edit himself better or allow his editors to do so (which they won't -- he has too much power at this point, and every page is another dollar in everyone's coffers). 

 

 

I have to say this loud and proud: I love Bran, I love his plotline, I've always loved it, and for me it remains one of the most powerful stories in "Game of Thrones."

 

So many times, I've heard people talk about Bran's story being boring, being too quiet, and that "nothing happens." I don't understand this. I watch this show and read fantasy to be taken away to another world and time. Bran's story does this gorgeously, and the underlying resonance that I'm watching a paraplegic orphan with psychic powers who's seeking some kind of heroic destiny makes it all that much  more moving to me.

 

I also love pretty much everyone Bran's shared a scene with -- especially Osha, Meera, Jojen, and more, and I'm still completely invested in his plot and outcome. More than anyone else, I feel like Bran is the one whose story offers clues about how this will all resolve, and I also think he's going to hold the key to controlling the dragons and saving the people of Westeros.

Speaking as a person who felt like Bran's early chapters were a bit of a chore to get through--I thought his story really took off in book five so for me I feel like the show has cut Bran off right when it was getting good. Bran touching the weirwood on the show in that one scene at least gives the Unsullied some idea of the power of the weirwood web, but I was totally bummed when I read that

Bran won't be appearing this season. The one bright side to that IMO is that Bran's story must truly kick into high gear next season if D&D decided it would be better to hold off so I'm hoping, hoping that this means lots of FLASHBACKS!!!

[Shanna]

It's Jaime's handling of the Riverlands that makes me feel that he would have been a good king given the right circumstances.

Yes, I miss the river lands for that reason.

I understand the impulse to send him to dorne but when I first heard I guess I thought they were going on a diplomatic visit or something . Not sneaking in and snatching myrcella. This is such a dumb plan that I am afraid I am just going to find all aspects of the dorne stuff stupid even though I love bronn and Jaime and I love the setting. We better get something about myrcella being the rightful queen soon because that was what I loved about the story in the books. Nobody wanted to hurt myrcella herself except dark whatever and I don't remember what the hell his point was.

The sand snakes were always kind of vengeful and bloodthirsty but they weren't killing random dudes who brought them information!

(I knew the last two books were full of filler reading them so I'm not upset at the streamlining but there are things I like that I got want cut out. Like the ghost of winterfell stuff. And now that Sansa is subbed in I do Not want I see her treated like Jeyne. If she takes the manderlys place that could be ok. I do miss some of the river lands both because I wanted to know what was going on but also because the brotherhood and the common people and the sparrows I think all sort of were running around and I think that is important)

Edited May 6, 2015 by Shanna

[Haleth]

The only thing I DON'T like about D&D's approach this season is that, to me, it shows just how much (incredibly) extraneous and immaterial material lies in Martin's books -- and that hardly any of it really matters. With the huge cuts in the plots from Lady Stoneheart, to the Ironborn to Quentyn, Darkstar, Jeyne/fArya, the show has seriously easily cut at least a full novel's worth from the show, and with very little fallout or effect on the actual story. Which makes me cranky, as it's something I can't unsee: that Martin is writing these incredibly huge, overlong tomes in which 1/3 of the action literally doesn't matter at all. I wish he'd just edit himself better or allow his editors to do so (which they won't -- he has too much power at this point, and every page is another dollar in everyone's coffers).

 

Paramitch, I sooooo agree with this!  And I would add the whole (fake) Aegon storyline too.  Makes me so angry to get interested and invested in these storylines and characters only to find out now they are irrelevant?  Curse you, Martin!

[Avaleigh]

Paramitch, I sooooo agree with this!  And I would add the whole (fake) Aegon storyline too.  Makes me so angry to get interested and invested in these storylines and characters only to find out now they are irrelevant?  Curse you, Martin!

Just knowing that a lot of this stuff is going to lead nowhere makes me realize that I'm totally going to be chapter hopping when TWoW finally comes out. 

[nksarmi]

One of the things that really impressed me about Jaime's Rivelands tour is that it demonstrated that he's an effective and fair administrator with diplomatic skills.  His identity is so wrapped up in being a warrior and the loss of his hand left him bereft, but it's clear he has other talents and would make a very good adviser or even Hand to a king.  He dealt with the latest Bracken/Blackwood feud, got the Tullys to give up (even though the Blackfish slipped through his fingers), dealt with Jeyne Westerling's horrible mother, went out of his way to help the serving girl Pia when she was nothing to him, and understands the food situation for the smallfolk is dangerously dire and is about to get even worse and is searching for solutions.  Bummer that that miserable zombie Stoneheart seems to have taken him out of commission for the time being and hopefully not permanently.  He was doing a good job.

 

 

The more I think about it - the more I believe this may be the one plot - Jamie in the Riverlands - that I am truly sad to see the show drop.  His character changed SO much during that part of the books.  With everything else - even the Stoneheart story which I admit that I hated - it doesn't seem vital to the story OR it was all Red Herrings anyway.  So I wonder if either all the progress Jamie makes in the Riverlands is later reversed or if the show plans on having him make similar strides while in Dorne.  It doesn't feel like he has progressed much and I believe he is still smitten with Cersei (which is disappointing) but they do have 6 episodes left to get him where he should be - especially if they plan to be more or less done with book 5 by the end of this season.