S05.E04: The Sons Of The Harpy

[Meredith Quill]

Episode Synopsis:
 
The Faith Militant grow increasingly aggressive. Jaime and Bronn head south. Ellaria and the Sand Snakes vow vengeance.

Reminder: There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into a potential spoiler you should leave now. Book Talk assumes you have read all the books to date. Any information from unpublished books, such as preview chapters should be in spoiler tags.

[loki567]

I'm gonna throw it out there: I think Stannis is dead by the end of the season. I was getting that vibe by the books and TWOW chapters alone and the show's starting to confirm it for me. In the books, Stannis is at his strongest position since ACoK. He's actually become more of a sympathetic character now that he's aligned with the North. The Boltons are seemingly in a bad position, surrounded by their enemies inside and out at Winterfell. Wouldn't it be completely GRRM if the Boltons get lucky during the battle, actually scored a victory and killed Stannis? I'm thinking that Ramsey's note at the end of ADWD turns out to be true and it's Stannis letter about, "You might hear that I have died," is the actual red herring.

 

Now the show is giving us even more hints, Brienne's oath to kill Stannis is getting more play and she's conveniently found herself heading in the same place as Stannis. Stannis and Shireen's scene felt like the last time they'll ever see each other. I'm more curious if Davos is going to take the hit with Stannis.

[InsertWordHere]

All those R+L=J hints. We're getting a reveal soon. I can feel it.

 

Barristan, no!

[Avaleigh]

I got chills when the High Sparrow was talking to Cersei about hypocrisy. The way that he looked at her face I swear he already knows about her history with Lancel. 

 

They killed Barristan! Son of a bitch!

 

I wonder if Grey Worm is alive?

 

What does Melisandre want with Jon at this stage? What would she do with another shadowbaby?

 

I liked the scene of Jaime fighting. I like the idea of him becoming skilled with his other hand so I'm glad to see that his training is paying off. I'd like to think that there's a long term purpose to having Jaime become a good fighter again, ideally something to do with the Others.

[magdalene]

Jaime's facial expression when he looked at Tarth, the Sapphire Island....

Also, I am going to pretend Jaime meant Brienne when he said he wanted to die in the arms of the woman he loved. I am just contrary that way.

 

Cersei, Cersei, Cersei, because arming religious fanatics is always such a splendid idea.

 

This is the first episode I ever found Stannis sympathetic. Maybe he is getting killed off soon.

[Black Knight]

Grey Worm AND Barristan?! Nooooooooo!

 

I've always known that Shireen is doomed to die, but boy, with her the showrunners really like to stick that knife in and twist it hard and break the hilt off, don't they? Further, I've always assumed that Shireen's death will come by Stannis sticking his sword into her heart because fucking Mel will tell him that that's what's necessary, and having this sweet scene where he basically tells her how much he loves her just confirms it. It's never really that clear with BookStannis whether he really cares about his daughter or not.

 

"You know nothing" - wow, Mel, you're cold. That was creepy!

[Haleth]

Ha! I called it 2 weeks ago that the show would have Loras arrested instead of Margaery.

Yeah, lots of pretty unsubtle hints about Rhaegar and Lyanna.

RIP Ser Grandfather. :(

[Winnief]

I'm gonna throw it out there: I think Stannis is dead by the end of the season. I was getting that vibe by the books and TWOW chapters alone and the show's starting to confirm it for me. In the books, Stannis is at his strongest position since ACoK. He's actually become more of a sympathetic character now that he's aligned with the North.

 

 

I wonder about that too-if Stannis's army (and the GNC) might defeat the Boltons but Stannis (on the show at least) dies during the battle.  I'm also really worried about Shireen, but between the two I think we can all agree (Stannis more than anyone really) that its better Shireen survive than her father. In fact I can't think of anything worse than Stannis surviving to learn Shireen went to the flames...Seven Help Us.  I wonder if Stannis's 'sacrifice' might not heal Shireen and let her someday be the Lady of Dragonstone or Storm's End, because I would like House Baratheon to continue if only through the maternal line.   But I have a nasty feeling that once Stannis leaves Castle Black, (neither he or Davos would ever allow it-they'd burn themselves first,) Selyse will  try to offer up her own daughter to the Lord of Light. 

 

I'm noting all these mentions of Rhaegar and Lyanna and thinking that means the Big Reveal is coming this season and they're just setting it up...also with Mel's interest in Jon, because she senses his King's blood.

 

Sob, farewell Barristan.  You fought the good fight and went down nobly.  Maybe Grey Worm survived, but probably not.  God this show is cruel. 

Edited May 4, 2015 by Winnief

[Tara Ariano]

Nick's post on the episode: War! Huh! Good Gods, Y'all!

[Skeeter22]

The Sand Snakes are terrible. I really don't understand why they killed the man who sold out Jaime. You'd think people wouldn't bother bringing them information if that's the way they roll. I know the show was just trying to make them badasses, but they seem stupid and awful instead.

[Black Knight]

Was it established that the ship captain willingly went to the Sand Snakes to rat out Jaime, though? I know Bronn thought he would, but Jaime felt he wouldn't. I can't remember now if any of the Sand Snakes had a line that actually established this.

[CherryMalotte]

Noooooooo.....not Barristan!  Damn it anyway!  I hope I didn't interrupt any sports events the neighbors are watching when I primal screamed out the window.  Damn damn damn. 

 

I dunno about Stannis getting his just quite yet, but that sure was a lovely little scene with Stannis and Shireen.  No, I didn't tear up.  Not at all.  

 

Melisandre, shut down.  Jon does know something, and it's that he doesn't want much to do with you.  Good instincts.    

 

Oh Cersei, I'm so going to enjoy when it comes time for you to take your own walk around town.  Margery shouldn't underestimate her mother in law...ever. 

 

Well, no more whorehouse scenes for awhile.

Edited May 4, 2015 by CherryMalotte

[Avaleigh]

Ha! I called it 2 weeks ago that the show would have Loras arrested instead of Margaery.

Yeah, lots of pretty unsubtle hints about Rhaegar and Lyanna.

RIP Ser Grandfather. :(

Isn't it possible that Margaery can be arrested as well? 

 

I'm thinking that Loras is just the first domino to fall. 

[benteen]

Noooo!  Not Ser Barristan!

 

I'm sorry we won't get to see Hand of the Queen.  I will miss the character.  Should have realized he was dead when he started talking about Rhaegar the singer.

 

Speaking of which, great to finally get some Lyanna and Rhaegar conversation.  Got to hear about the two sides of Rhaegar, which is important to know.

 

Really good episode.  A lot of the storylines worked.

 

Cersei being the one to propose bringing back the Faith Militant makes her look even worse as a decision-maker so props to D and D.  Though it makes the new High Sparrow much more passive although given the Faiths sweep through King's Landing, it's clear that he is very much in control.

 

Poor Tommen...I really felt for him there.  He is not prepared for this and is surrounded by people who only want to use him for their own purposes.  This is why you need a Tywin Lannister around.  The kid playing Tommen was terrific.

 

Speaking of changes...it's Jaime who wants to kill Tyrion now.  I'm glad they've kept the bad blood but can't help but think this is D and D's latest attempt to make Tyrion look like a saint compared to everyone else.  I've said before that there's one Lannister brother who is a rapist and it's not Jaime.  But on the show, Jaime is the rapist who wants to kill his brother.

 

That being said, I'm enjoying Jaime and Bronn's "Road to Dorne" trip and the fight was great.  Yay that Jaime managed to actually kill somebody!

 

BTW, loved the "cameo" by Tarth and the callbacks to Jaime and Brienne.

 

Of course, Melisandre opened up her robe again.  Glad they had Jon resist...wasn't sure there for a moment.  Great little detail about Jon not wanting to ask the Boltons for help.

 

I admit, I teared up a little during the Stannis and Shireen scene.  A LOT of references to Stone Men so I strongly suspect we'll get that next week or very soon.  I'm VERY worried about Melisandre noting Shireen's king's blood and that look she gave Selyse. 

 

Tyrion and Jorah definitely work well together onscreen.

 

Very good scene with Sansa and I will share the above concerns about this further setting up Stannis's death.

 

I think the Book Unsullied would have won that battle at the end.  Still, very good fight scene.  I understand losing Ser Barristan will hurt Dany a great deal and her decision-making.  Though she was terrible at it in the books WITH him in the picture!

Edited May 4, 2015 by benteen

[elzin]

I am almost too angry to type, but I too was getting a very loud "Shireen is going to burn" vibe this episode.  Not IN this episode, but that is her ultimate fate.

 

And apparently Jaime is going to die in Brienne's arms.  Which has always been one of my theories, that there's a replay of the Aerys/wildfyre thing with Cersei and Brienne is there and the three of them take each other out. The twins will go out together as been said and Jaime will have some kind of further redemption and Brienne will walk a mile in his shoes. Or something.

 

it's hard to type through the rage

[ToniG]

Was it established that the ship captain willingly went to the Sand Snakes to rat out Jaime, though? I know Bronn thought he would, but Jaime felt he wouldn't. I can't remember now if any of the Sand Snakes had a line that actually established this.

Yes, one of them said the captain sought her out to tell her about Jamie.

Edited May 4, 2015 by ToniG

[benteen]

Grey Worm AND Barristan?! Nooooooooo!

 

I've always known that Shireen is doomed to die, but boy, with her the showrunners really like to stick that knife in and twist it hard and break the hilt off, don't they? Further, I've always assumed that Shireen's death will come by Stannis sticking his sword into her heart because fucking Mel will tell him that that's what's necessary, and having this sweet scene where he basically tells her how much he loves her just confirms it. It's never really that clear with BookStannis whether he really cares about his daughter or not.

 

"You know nothing" - wow, Mel, you're cold. That was creepy!

 

Oh yeah, "You know nothing, Jon Snow" was creepy.  I wish Melisandre would have been a little more subtle in the rest of that scene but yeah, definitely chilling.

 

The Stannis/Shireen relationship is weird because you never get the sense as to whether he loves her or not.  We know he doesn't want his daughter to marry an "abomination" like Tommen and that he is very mindful of her rights.  But without the POV, it's tough to know for sure what he thinks of her.

[Mya Stone]

Quick thoughts: 

I've been known to carry my three year old like Jorah carried Tyrion onto the boat. Poor Peter Dinklage. With that being said, I LOVE the glimpses of his quick-wit and brains. His best monologue since Blackwater. Way better than "Wherever whores go..." 

Interesting that LF was given the exposition of the tourney at Harrenhall. I'm glad that story stayed in the show. Sad Meera didn't deliver it. 

Loved loved loved Stannis and Shireen. Truly. I really hope it doesn't earmark him for immediate death. I know people are now speculating that he will have to sacrifice her, but I can't see him willingly doing it. 

Ugh, Cersei. Just ugh. But I admit I laughed hysterically at Tommen's newfound backbone. Then I felt horrible for him, because of the commoners yelling about him being an abomination. I know he's going to die, but man. :( 

The scenes with the faith militant were poignant and I can't help but feel like they had a political undertone to them. 

Lastly...RIP, Ser Barry. I wish you had told Dany more of Rhaegar, but alas. I'm still holding out hope for Grey Worm. (My sister and I throughout the entire fight kept saying how Buffy would have slayed them all without breaking a sweat. We really miss Buffy.) 

[Black Knight]

I think the Book Unsullied would have won that battle at the end.

In the books there's a group of Unsullied who are slaughtered in much the same manner. A character notes that the Unsullied are great for open-field combat, not so much for guerilla-style in narrow streets.

 

ToniG, thanks for answering my question. Yeah, that makes the Sand Snakes seem really stupid.

 

The Stannis/Shireen relationship is weird because you never get the sense as to whether he loves her or not.  We know he doesn't want his daughter to marry an "abomination" like Tommen and that he is very mindful of her rights.  But without the POV, it's tough to know for sure what he thinks of her.

 

 

Yeah, exactly. In the books there's a strong argument to be made that Stannis is only thinking of family honor when he insists on Shireen's rights and on her not being married to an abomination. It's in his character to be rigid about that stuff even if he doesn't love her, so I honestly don't know about BookStannis. But ShowStannis turns out to be quite the teddy bear where his daughter is concerned. I won't lie, I cried...awwwww!

Edited May 4, 2015 by Black Knight

[Independent George]

The Sand Snakes are terrible. I really don't understand why they killed the man who sold out Jaime. You'd think people wouldn't bother bringing them information if that's the way they roll. I know the show was just trying to make them badasses, but they seem stupid and awful instead.

 

Agreed. I understand (and agree with) the need to trim down the loads and loads of characters, but the end result is hurting the character development in this case. We know nothing of the Sand Snakes, and we know Oberyn himself was against harming Myrcella. So by making Elaria into a composite of the book version of the Sand Snakes, while cutting out Arianne's perspective entirely, they seem like straight monsters instead of people we might otherwise sympathize with. 

 

I'm gonna throw it out there: I think Stannis is dead by the end of the season. I was getting that vibe by the books and TWOW chapters alone and the show's starting to confirm it for me. In the books, Stannis is at his strongest position since ACoK. He's actually become more of a sympathetic character now that he's aligned with the North. The Boltons are seemingly in a bad position, surrounded by their enemies inside and out at Winterfell. Wouldn't it be completely GRRM if the Boltons get lucky during the battle, actually scored a victory and killed Stannis? I'm thinking that Ramsey's note at the end of ADWD turns out to be true and it's Stannis letter about, "You might hear that I have died," is the actual red herring.

 

Now the show is giving us even more hints, Brienne's oath to kill Stannis is getting more play and she's conveniently found herself heading in the same place as Stannis. Stannis and Shireen's scene felt like the last time they'll ever see each other. I'm more curious if Davos is going to take the hit with Stannis.

 

This could pose an interesting dramatic situation for her - they're working hard right now to establish Stannis as the best hope for toppling the Boltons, and uniting the North to defend the Wall. Brienne has a personal grudge against Stannis, so is she willing to put that aside for the good of the realm?

[Winnief]

Looking at the Unsullied discussion, even people there were noting that again, Rhaegar may not have kidnapped Lyanna so much as ran off with her, (the way Oberyn put it in Season 3,) and moreover the anvil of Stannis commenting that Ned was no Robert Baratheon who whored around raising questions as to where exactly Jon came from.  Yeah, the Big Reveal is coming soon.  In fact that may be another reason Sansa is at Winterfell...she might just discover something one day in those crypts she's been visiting. 

[Malaprop cocktail]

This episode was about evenly split between very strong and very weak scenes for me. Strengths: Jorah and Tyrion, Jamie and Bronn, every scene at Castle Black, Tommen at the steps of the Sept. Weaknesses: the scene with the Sand Snakes (I especially thought the actress from Whale Rider delivered her lines terribly, and her sudden launch into a monologue seemed forced), Petyr and Sansa in the crypt, and the fight scene at the end. The swordfighting was distractingly bad, and I don't usually notice. It really took away from the impact of Barristan's death for me.

I feel like Loras's imprisonment will be instead of Margaery's, not in addition.

I hope the Boltons send their men to the wall before Stannis marches on Winterfell.

[Winnief]

I hope the Boltons send their men to the wall before Stannis marches on Winterfell.

 

 

I wouldn't count on those treasonous, selfish, sadistic Boltons doing a damn thing to help the NW.  They wouldn't even send prisoners up there-they'd prefer to flay them themselves. 

[ToniG]

Weaknesses: the scene with the Sand Snakes (I especially thought the actress from Whale Rider delivered her lines terribly, and her sudden launch into a monologue seemed forced...

Yes! I thought the scene with the Sand Snakes was just awful. And, has Ellaria's accent changed from when she was in King's Landing for the wedding to this season? That accent just grates.

[Malaprop cocktail]

Yeah, exactly. In the books there's a strong argument to be made that Stannis is only thinking of family honor when he insists on Shireen's rights and on her not being married to an abomination. It's in his character to be rigid about that stuff even if he doesn't love her, so I honestly don't know about BookStannis. But ShowStannis turns out to be quite the teddy bear where his daughter is concerned. I won't lie, I cried...awwwww!

I thought that scene was pretty true to book Stannis. Even in his speech about the origins of the grayscale and his efforts to save Shireen, at the end he says something like "you are a princess of the house Baratheon and your place is here." I don't remember the dialogue, but it was phrased in terms of her status and role, not in terms of his affection for her. And when she goes in for a hug, he doesn't quite know what to do.

[benteen]

So Melisandre is going to go with Stannis to Winterfell?  It sure looks that way.

 

It was also noted that Stannis needs to clear out the Boltons to get the North on his side.  So does that mean for sure he won't be making his bookstops?  And does that seem to hint that he won't be the one to do it?  Might be Jon and Sansa.  Just some speculation.

[Winnief]

And when she goes in for a hug, he doesn't quite know what to do.

 

 

Which summed up Stannis to me.  He loves his daughter deeply, he just has no clue how to express affection in terms other than declaiming "her rights" under the banner of family pride.  Just like he won't say Davos is his best friend...just that he needs Davos's service or what have you.  Stannis can care for others but he doesn't know how to say it to them...perhaps because he can't even say it to himself.

 

And yeah, LF confidently betting on Stannis, bodes poorly for Stannis's odds.  I think the Boltons will go down but it will be because of Sansa and/or Jon instead.  And interesting how they're setting up that however much, Jon personally hates the Boltons he isn't willing to violate NW neutrality simply for revenge, (he's infinitely more mature than say the Sand Snakes,) adding more drama for if/when he does break his vows in the name of saving his 'sister.'  Breaking neutrality won't bring Robb or Ned back, but Sansa is still alive and in danger-that's how he'll see it.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Winnief

[anyanka323]

There were some wonderful scenes about the importance of family in here, especially the Stannis/Shireen and Littlefinger/Sansa.  Stannis has grown on me as the one mostly smart Baratheon brother, with the glaring defect of his dependece of Melisandre. 

 

Watching the Faith Militiant and Sons of the Harpy, I was struck by the contemporary parellels between those two groups and ISIS/ISIL in the Middle East.  It was both compelling and horrifying watching the FM purify Littlefinger's brothel.  More has come out about the terrible treatment of gays in ISIS controlled regions since production finished on S5 and it didn't make those scenes any easier to watch.  More information has come out about the recruiting tactics which seem like kidnapping, so there's some parallels to the Sons of the Harpy as former fighting pit slaves dressed up in masters' robes and masks still doing the masters' dirty work. 

 

Cersei, Cersei, Cersei... how dumb and short sighted could you be arming a group of religious fanactics with some serious grudges against the elite of King's Landing and sending away people who might have suggested a difference course of action.  It will be fun to watch when the Faith Militiant turn on her and that sweet idiot Tommen to atone for their crimes of incest. 

[Independent George]

Which summed up Stannis to me.  He loves his daughter deeply, he just has no clue how to express affection in terms other than declaiming "her rights" under the banner of family pride.  Just like he won't say Davos is his best friend...just that he needs Davos's service or what have you.  Stannis can care for others but he doesn't know how to say it to them...perhaps because he can't even say it to himself.

 

I want a plush Stannis doll that I can hug and squeeze and pet and carry around with me.

 

HBO store, get on that, chop chop! It'll be a bestseller!

[Malaprop cocktail]

I'll take one Stannis doll, hold the grayscale.

[benteen]

Props to first-time GOT screenwriter, Dave Hill.  D and D's promotion of him was a wise decision.

 

I was worried Cersei wasn't incompetent enough before last week.  Not worried about that anymore!  Love her passive-aggressiveness with Tommen, which damn well nearly got him killed.

 

Mace is going to Braavos with Ser Meryn, which I think is safe to say sets up Meryn's death by Arya.  Props for that plot development, which will keep Arya better connected to Westeros.

I want a plush Stannis doll that I can hug and squeeze and pet and carry around with me.

 

HBO store, get on that, chop chop! It'll be a bestseller!

 

Just make sure you don't by the doll from a Dornishmen.  I think Stannis made that very clear tonight.

[Winnief]

Mace is going to Braavos with Ser Meryn, which I think is safe to say sets up Meryn's death by Arya.  Props for that plot development, which will keep Arya better connected to Westeros.

 

Ser Meryn is definitely getting whacked by Arya.  The real question is whether Mace ever leaves Braavos alive or if he dies too.  I have a nasty suspicion that aligning with the Lannister's is going to prove the doom of House Tyrell. 

 

It's also safe to say that the stone men and greyscale will make an appearance pretty soon.  But who will be infected?  My money's on Jorah, but it's possible Tyrion may get an internal case that starts paralyzing him from the inside out as well...an especially cruel irony since one of the symptoms is that the victim loses their ability to speak which fits with Martin's nasty habit of characters losing what parts of them they value most.  (Jaime his sword hand, Aemon man of learning loses his sight and can no longer read, Theon his fingers for archery and his 'favorite toy', etc.)

[whirlingdervish]

Question(s): didn't Lancel say something about having repented and been forgiven his sins?  Does that mean that someone in the Sparrows already knows about Lancel and Cersei, and perhaps about Cersei's role in Robert's death? 

[ChromaKelly]

Aaah! Not Ser Barristan! My husband was like "Oh he's going to die since he told that story." when he saw him walking around after the attack broke out. I'm all "This isn't Lost or The Walking Dead. He's still alive in the books." Yeah, which one of us was right :(.

Why is Stannis Fucking Baratheon the one that made me tear up this ep?

[Independent George]

Why is Stannis Fucking Baratheon the one that made me tear up this ep?

 

Because Stannis does not cry, so I cry for him.

[benteen]

I definitely think we'll be getting Stone Men, probably next week.  I'm looking forward to that after how it's been built up although yeah, Ser Jorah is probably going to come down with a case of greyscale. 

Edited May 4, 2015 by benteen

[GreyBunny]

Hi Tommen, have fun being King!  Can't wait for Cersei's bad decisions to backfire spectacularly, though I'm amused at the way she got rid of Mace.

 

I predicted Barristan's fate ages ago - his role in the story is to tell Dany about her family, once that's done he's disposable.

 

They keep dropping clues to Jon's parentage like anvils.

 

They sullied the Unsullied, while fighting they looked pathetic.  Poor Grey Worm.

 

Nice move by Jaime, he found a use for that silly hand (even if accidentally).

 

Still not enjoying the character assassination of Ellaria by the writers. The Sand Snakes are duds.

 

 It's never really that clear with BookStannis whether he really cares about his daughter or not.

In the book he says if he dies he wants his men to put Shireen on the Iron throne.  He loves his daughter.  If it does come down to a Nissa Nissa moment I think Stannis will balk and stab Melissandre instead, or try to.  I don't think he'll kill his daughter.

 

I could watch an entire episode of Tyrion and Jorah.  It's a shame Varys isn't with them, that would be a hilarious three-way.

[Avaleigh]

Question(s): didn't Lancel say something about having repented and been forgiven his sins?  Does that mean that someone in the Sparrows already knows about Lancel and Cersei, and perhaps about Cersei's role in Robert's death? 

Yes, I'm convinced that he already knows. 

 

I feel like Loras's imprisonment will be instead of Margaery's, not in addition.

Loras being arrested in interesting enough but it doesn't really do that much to the story not in the way Margaery getting arrested does. IMO Loras getting arrested is in place of Margaery's cousins. 

[DigitalCount]

Assuming they cut the Griffs, Jorah's got to get grayscale. Someone we care about needs to be afflicted, especially since (thankfully) we haven't seen much if any of the pale mare.

 

This episode was probably the most moving of the 4 this season, and of course it was almost impossible to watch. The feels are being had. :(

 

Am I right to think that the crying lady was in league with the Harpies? It seemed like she was setting a trap for them, hence them ending up in a freaking kill box. But since it's Barristan the Boss and Grey Worm, they took down all those guys with them, at least. I blame Dany for the loss; one brain + two dragons = a huge heaping helping of roast harpy. I still have hope for Grey Worm, but I am thinking that Barristan is done, since he gave his exposition to Dany re: Rhaegar.

 

Speaking of which, holy heck. We got two stories about Rhaegar tonight, one about the freaking tourney at Harrenhall. I could have done without Baelish's kiss of Sansa, but I'm glad they still have someone alive who knew (of) Rhaegar.

 

Seeing Cersei's use of the Faith as a weapon for her own personal vendetta was like a kick to the throat. I know Joffrey wouldn't have given two flying cowpies about Loras, but if he had found himself in the position Tommen was in those Sparrows would have been snapped like twigs. At least Loras can a) fight his own trial, and b) possibly demonstrate that he's not guilty for lack of proof. I'm assuming Olyvar won't talk, because he seemed pretty ready to beat feet out of there, plus he was astounded that they were breaking into the brothel in the first place. On the one hand, great, Cersei's going to get hers in a matter of moments, but on the other hand, these crazy weirdos need to sit the heck down.

 

I was a bit more impressed with Jaime and Bronn in Dorne, although Bronn was probably right about Jaime being ultimately more of a liability than anything else. Both Lannister brothers seem incapable of keeping their mouths shut even when death is knocking at their door. Not much to say about the Sand Snakes yet, though I wasn't particularly a huge fan of them in the books either...that is to say, they barely made a ripple. I don't have a huge problem with Ellaria going nuts, because it's a logical response. I see her as having had two choices, following Oberyn's death: the book choice or the show choice. Book!Ellaria chose the book choice, obviously. But we need more than just Jaime and Bronn to tie us into the Dornish storyline. Familiar faces on both sides of the conflict makes for a better viewing experience.

 

Shipping Jaime/Brienne (BrieMe? Jainne?)

 

I could have sworn I took my allergy pill, but my allergies must have been flaring up during the Stannis scene with Shireen. Jon and Mel were great, I loled, and even more so when she dropped the mic with the Ygritte line. She does that in the book too, right? It's been a while :/

 

I do want to see Margaery arrested too; to me she's kind of the valuable Tyrell and while Loras is a big deal, it's not nearly the big deal that it would be if we get Queen Trials. To me, Margaery's a villain as well, though she benefits from being placed opposite someone that could easily be the villain. So it was nice to see her get knocked back a bit too when her poor preteen hubby couldn't get the job done. And anything that brings Grandma Redwyne back is a plus in my book, though she doesn't have as many worthy opponents anymore.

[Greta]

After the story about the Dornish ship and the infected doll, I'm wondering if Oberyn's "We don't hurt little girls in Dorne" maybe only literally meant little girls IN Dorne (if that). Killing/maiming a relatively unguarded* Baratheon child as one salvo of revenge for Elia, while keeping a safe distance and plausible deniability?   

 

*unguarded as opposed to Cersei's children in the Red Keep.

[Happy Harpy]

First of all, Jaime and Bronn are fucking fantastic. I laughed, I cheered ("are you sure she feels the same", oh please, make Bronn be the one who tells Jaime about Lancel), I loved the fights, I loved the snark, I love them,  I'll throw a major tantrum if they kill Bronn. He has the best chemistry with all the Lannisters. And being away from Cersei is doing wonders for Jaime. Let's make this permanent, please, and not as in "he's dead".

 

They killed me with Jaime and Tarth, because I didn't expect it at all. His wistful look. Damn.

 

Then, they killed me with Shireen. Her smile watching the training. I've always thought that Stannis loved his daughter. I'm afraid that his terrible taste in wife and mistress will cost her her life, though, because the Meaningful Creepy Look between them means imo that something is planned for her when he's gone. 

One thing in favor of Shireen: the greyscale anvils all around. I hold on to the hope that she might be significant there. Maybe Selyse is despaired in the S5 Wheel promo because someone prevented her from killing Shireen and she thinks it will doom everyone. I know, I'm grasping at straws.

 

Hands off my bastards, red bitch! Well, you can get Ramsay, if you really want one. She doesn't take rejection well, does she ? 

Jon was great, as always. He isn't perfect, he's tempted, but he does the right thing in the end. And once again, excellent acting from K.Harrington imo. And the hints are coming, anviliciously. 

 

Tommen is nice, but too weak. It isn't only his age imo. Margaery, yep, she doesn't have the patience and is too emotional to be the great manipulator she'd like to be.

Graphic violence isn't why I watch, but I'm glad they didn't sugarcoat the abomination of the Sparrows' actions.

Why didn't Loras just slay them? He's supposed to be a competent warrior, somewhere, and it isn't as if this band of bullies were the Mountain reborn.

And to me, Cersei just made the dumbest decision in the history of Game of Thrones. At least, Ned made his out of honor and Robb made his out of love. She did it just out of spite. And I find it ironic that she blamed Tywin last year for tearing Tommen apart, when it's actually what she's doing right now. I wonder if he won't eventually meet his end at the hands of the people or the Sparrows, considering the insults thrown at him. 

 

Famous last words: "I'll be back in no time", by Creepyfinger. Please, please, make it work. It works everytime, in all logic he should be doomed. The idea that Ramsay could be infatuated enough with Sansa to control himself with her, and that she could manipulate him just long enough for the cavalry to arrive is kind of reassuring. Interesting how hard was her glare at him, for one second, while he turned his back.

 

Tyrion/Jorah was good, not great but it's only the beginning. 

 

Was that Daenerys smiling? Wow, she looked so human and approachable, I miss that side of her character. I hope that Grey Worm isn't dead! I loved him trying to save/avenging Barristan. I never had much use for the latter, but of course they kill him on the first episode where I thought he was OK.

 

I didn't dislike the Sand Snakes. I could have done without the heavy accents, but I thought they already showed embryos of personality (Mommy's girl, the Quiet One, the Brawn) and I favor kickass women so the jury's still out. Emily Thorne, I mean Ellaria, isn't going to end well imo. 

 

Good news: Olenna should come back King's Landing, Meryn Trant is sent to Braavos where someone is very eager to show him some needlework.

 

Fantastic episode (as the length of this post shows). They had a real balance imo, between all the storylines, tension, humorous moments (Mace, Cersei and the wine), emotional moments, and action.This season, I find every one better than the other and this one is my favorite so far. It wasn't perfect to me because No One wasn't there, only.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[mac123x]

Cercei's stupidity with the High Sparrow was expected, but her stupidity with Tommen was horribly out of character.  She's been the over-protective mother to him:  see her speech to Tywin last season.  Here, she blithely sends him to go talk to the High Sparrow, knowing full well that the other sparrows are armed and belligerent.  When the crowd started shouting "bastard! abomination!" I genuinely feared for his life.  It just seemed out of character that Cercei would send him into that situation.

[DigitalCount]

Oh yeah, during the Jon/Mel scene I couldn't help but think she's looking for more kingpower. As soon as she saw him last season and had that expression like "WELL HEY THERE BRO" I had a feeling that she knew about RLJ. Her continued jonesing for it is only another sign of the theory being true, IMO. What clues have we gotten thus far on the show, and how many of them were in this episode (lol) ?

 

- Ned promising to talk with Jon about Momma, meaning it was something he'd have to sit down to take in

- Stannis saying Ned wasn't the type to just swan around

- Baelish and the story about Harrenhall

- Mel having the hunger for Jon

- Barristan's story about Rhaegar being a real swell guy

 

I really wish we could have gotten a chance to hear the Knight of the Laughing Tree story, but it makes sense that it would be cut, and now it'd be weird. Can anyone think of any other show-only hints we've gotten re: RLJ?

[Mr. Simpatico]

So what did we learn in this episode that they so clearly foreshadowed:

Jaime will eventually die in the arms of Brienne (or Cersei depending on how you view things and Mel and her mother are going to attempt to burn Shireen (no offense to D&D though but there has never been a sign Book!Mel wants to burn the Princess, no? and of course Book!Selyse is overly protective of her) and then they had to move Mel/Jon from subtext to actually text in the TV show?

 

Stannis is getting sympathetic airtime - that means he is on the Death Watch. Also, I thought LF knew things and was a good reader of people - he really think Roose is more dangerous than Ramsay and that Sansa can "handle" Ramsay or that Ramsay is capable of loving anyone (and we really have no scenes with Sansa/Ramsay to prove this - it's all tell and no show). Same goes for the Dorne plot, replace Arianne with Ellaria and give her a simple revenge plot to kill Myrcella (I thought that's not how things are done in Dorne, according to Oberyn).

 

I hate the death of Barristan Selmy, one of my favorite characters. I'm just starting to get confused at this point - it's not only that they are moving past ADWD but they are putting things in such ridiculously out of order that its hard to tell what is going on when? 

[SeanC]

Yeah, the Big Reveal is coming soon.

This season has been said to be more or less TWOW spoiler-free, so I doubt it'll be any time soon.

[Avaleigh]

I don't think Mace Tyrell is going to make it out of Braavos alive. I think they set up three different ways for House Tyrell to take hits in this episode. We were also specifically reminded that Meryn Trant is on Arya's list so obviously he's going to be one of her kills this season.

 

Bronn is pretty well travelled. Where hasn't he been?

Assuming they cut the Griffs, Jorah's got to get grayscale. Someone we care about needs to be afflicted, especially since (thankfully) we haven't seen much if any of the pale mare.

 

I agree that it seems likely that Jorah will be the character to get greyscale since Tyrion hasn't been afflicted in the books so far. So much for my hope that he'd be the 1000th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. (Although it does give me a the tiniest possible shred of hope that Jaime might end up in that position after all instead of dying after killing Cersei which I think is a lot more likely.)

Jaime will eventually die in the arms of Brienne 

 

 I will have a full on Claire Danes in Homeland ugly style cry if this is what ends up happening. It would make me so sad but it's kind of perfect.

 

I was a bit more impressed with Jaime and Bronn in Dorne, although Bronn was probably right about Jaime being ultimately more of a liability than anything else. Both Lannister brothers seem incapable of keeping their mouths shut even when death is knocking at their door. Not much to say about the Sand Snakes yet, though I wasn't particularly a huge fan of them in the books either...that is to say, they barely made a ripple. I don't have a huge problem with Ellaria going nuts, because it's a logical response. I see her as having had two choices, following Oberyn's death: the book choice or the show choice. Book!Ellaria chose the book choice, obviously. But we need more than just Jaime and Bronn to tie us into the Dornish storyline. Familiar faces on both sides of the conflict makes for a better viewing experience.

I don't see anything logical in Ellaria's response. It would be different to me if she hadn't seen what happened to Oberyn for herself or had been somehow unaware that Oberyn chose to fight or if she'd been given the impression for some reason that the Mountain had cheated.

 

 

Oh yeah, during the Jon/Mel scene I couldn't help but think she's looking for more kingpower. As soon as she saw him last season and had that expression like "WELL HEY THERE BRO" I had a feeling that she knew about RLJ. Her continued jonesing for it is only another sign of the theory being true, IMO. What clues have we gotten thus far on the show, and how many of them were in this episode (lol) ?

After four seasons and four books where she's been around it's still unclear what exactly it is that she wants. If Jon had given in and had sex with her in that moment what would be her next move? How does Stannis fit is? If she's legitimately concerned about the threat of the Others why doesn't she mention it more? If it's all about King's blood why didn't she want to use Mance's blood to work any spells? Why should Shireen's be any different?

 

Why not try the leech magic on the Boltons? 

[BloatedGuppy]

I guess I'll be the resident whiner. One of the worst hours of GoT I've seen, particularly after the strong episode three. 

 

Where to begin?

 

• Cersei suggesting the arming of the faith militant instead of having it suggested to her is the kind of small deviation that makes very little sense to anyone. That the High Sparrow never even considered it and seems almost taken aback at the suggestion undermines his ambition and intelligence, and it presents Cersei as a student of history (in which case she should have also been aware of why they were dismantled in the first place, and how difficult and protracted that process was).
• How does having Loras imprisoned get Cersei what she wants (I.E. Margaery out of the picture)? All it really accomplishes is inflaming the situation. Cersei is not exactly a master statesman but she can at least keep her various goals sorted.
• Faith Militant seemed a bit comically over the top.
• Jon/Melisandre scene was decent but seemed a bit heavy on the boobsposition. Melisandre is still very much in camp Stannis at this juncture, so "Shh we don't need to tell him" seemed OOC.
• Sons of the Harpy staging guerrilla type ambushes for Unsullied = good. Those ambushes taking the form of pitched battles in narrow alleys where their advantage in numbers is nullified and the Unsullied can best make use of tight formations and spear/shield = bad. Why not arrows, Sons of the Harpy? Why not traps? Guerrilla warfare works best when you're not dying at a 10 to 1 ratio. Just some helpful tips.
• Sand Snakes came off as stiff and pointlessly nasty. Why are we killing Myrcella now, instead of crowning her? Ellaria comes off as spiteful and capricious as a result, at odds with her season 4 portrayal.
• Sansa/Littlefinger is so far off the reservation at this point I can't even be upset at it. At least they worked in a nice Rhaegar story, delivered in Aidan Gillen's best scenery-chomping stage whisper.
• What on earth was Barristan Selmy doing wandering the streets? Was it his lunch break? He's literally the ONLY QUEENSGUARD.

 

I realize it's churlish to complain about deviations, and I don't always, but what troubles me is how consistently the deviations lack any kind of common sense or internal consistency with the world. It's "Talissa Syndrome", where they're either writing in outright anachronisms or deviating from canon for no apparent purpose beyond "they think it's neat". They got by on the strength of some Arya/Tywin scenes because Charles Dance was a gift, but for the most part their additions to the story have come across like poorly conceived fan fiction, belonging to a much lesser show. They're dealing with some of George's weakest book material now, and are somehow making it even more plodding and aimless.

 

Bleh. Terrible. I had high hopes after last week, too. 

[Mr. Simpatico]

I don't see anything logical in Ellaria's response. It would be different to me if she hadn't seen what happened to Oberyn for herself or had been somehow unaware that Oberyn chose to fight or if she'd been given the impression for some reason that the Mountain had cheated.

 

 

After four seasons and four books where she's been around it's still unclear what exactly it is that she wants. If Jon had given in and had sex with her in that moment what would be her next move? How does Stannis fit is? If she's legitimately concerned about the threat of the Others why doesn't she mention it more? If it's all about King's blood why didn't she want to use Mance's blood to work any spells? Why should Shireen's be any different?

 

Why not try the leech magic on the Boltons? 

There is no logic in the Ellaria plot. Revenge on little girls is NOT the Dornish way. GRRM said it. Heck, Show!Oberyn said it. Why they just couldn't go with the crowning of Myrcella idea is beyond me (but why they ditched Arianne entirely but still kept the Sand Snakes is beyond me).

 

The treatment of Mel bugs too. I'm not a huge fan of the character. But she doesn't have sex with every dude she meets in the books. But on the show she is all about sex to get what she wants - Stannis, Gendry, Jon. She hasn't even made advances in the manner towards Jon in the books (even though we know she's interested in him). It's ridiculous.

 

Oh, and another bit of foreshadowing I didn't mention. Meryn Trent is going to Braavos. Hmmm, I wonder if there happens to be a girl there who wants to kill him?

[Dev F]

There is no logic in the Ellaria plot. Revenge on little girls is NOT the Dornish way.

 

I don't know why this is such a point of contention for folks, considering that two of the revenge proposals offered by the Sand Snakes in the book were to a) murder eight-year-old King Tommen, and b) burn Oldtown to the ground. While it's true that Ellaria wasn't down with getting revenge in the books, there were certainly some prominent Dornish who thought that indiscriminate death and destruction was the appropriate response to Oberyn's death.

[JustaPerson]

Once they heard about Jaime's arrival in Dorne, wouldn't a much better plan be to capture/kill him and turn around and accuse the Lannisters of trying declare war on Dorne? He's a much bigger prize than Myrcella is.

Edited May 4, 2015 by JustaPerson