Family Ties: The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

[emma675]

I would just tell her that she has the upcoming visit to pick out the things she wants to keep (and take back with her), otherwise it's all going to Salvation Army or the dump. I would also probably throw it back in her face that at least you finished college and graduated, unlike her.

But I'm in a mood today, so take the above with a grain of salt, lol.

[JTMacc99]

Since this thread has "The Good" in the title, I might as well go ahead and share a good story here.

My dad has a taste for a specific beer that is made in upstate New York. He doesn't drink much beer, maybe a couple of six packs all summer. He likes it on a hot day after coming in from doing something outside. The store where he normally gets his yearly amount in New Jersey ran out, so he tasked me with finding some for him.  I'm in New York, and I see that beer all the time. They sell the 30 packs of it in CVS, so I figure it won't be too hard to find somebody who carries it in bottles.

He's very specific on this, he wants it in bottles. 

So I stopped at the beer store on my way home Friday night and inquired about it. The owner told me that had the 30 pack, so I asked if she had it in bottles? She stopped dead in her tracks and explained to me that the distributor for that beer stopped carrying bottles, and that they were the distributor for most counties in New York. I told her my dad was going to be unhappy. She told me that she wasn't happy either, but there was nothing we could do about it.  I mentioned that my dad was getting it in New Jersey and she said, yep, you can get it in Jersey.

So on Sunday I told my dad this story ("Damn distributors! They do what they want" was the direct quote,) and that he's on his own to find it.

This morning I didn't like the way that sat with me, so I went to the brewery's web site and did a "Find a place to get our beer" search putting in my dad's zip code.  120 places within 20 miles of his home. I called the one 2.5 miles away. They can get it for me, but not until after the 4th. I thanked him and did not ask him to place any orders yet. Called the second one, 3.0 miles away. The owner picks up the phone, says "hold on, let me check... hold on, let me check in the back... Yep. Are you coming today, do you want me to put it in the fridge to cool it down?"  I told him no, but my dad will be down there to pick it up probably today. 

I called my dad and told him this new part of the story, told him it was on Main Street across from the TD Bank ("Oh! I know where that is!") and that when he gets there, tell them we spoke on the phone and it was confirmed that they have some in the back. He was super excited to get his beer. 

It's the little things sometimes.

[ratgirlagogo]

6 hours ago, JTMacc99 said:

It's the little things sometimes.

Hey! your favorite beer is NEVER a "little" thing, even if you only drink two dozen beers a summer.  All those beers should be beers you really like, otherwise why drink beer at all?  Congrats on being such a good son.

[methodwriter85]

8 hours ago, BookWoman56 said:

@methodwriter85, is there any way you can simply tell your sister that her stuff is taking up too much room in the house, and is a fire hazard? I'm guessing with that much stuff in the basement, master bedroom, and garage, if there were a fire, it would spread ridiculously fast given all the stuff packed into those rooms. It's your mom's house, and by all rights, she should be the one using the master bedroom instead of having it be unusable by anyone because it's been turned into a storage unit.  I'm not sure what moral qualms you might have, but I would not hesitate to tell her that she's had 4 years to get her crap out of the house and if she doesn't do it this trip, it's all going to get tossed. You and your mom have been turned into hoarders by proxy because of your sister. I don't know exactly how full those rooms are, but you need to be aware that some homeowners insurance companies will cancel policies if they determine that hoarding is going on in the house. It's also possible that they would refuse to pay a claim for a fire because your sister's stuff created an unsafe environment.  You may need to do some research on the consequences of having all that crap stored in the house.  Maybe if you do, and discuss it with your mom, that might the final straw that persuades her to tell your sister to either pack up her stuff or it will be thrown away.  Your sister has turned your mom's home into her own free personal storage space, and that's not something you or your mom should have to tolerate. 

I wouldn't say it's quite enough to be a fire hazard, but it is a lot.

Here's the sitch with my sister- she lives in a townhouse with her boyfriend and her daughter in San Fransisco that her boyfriend owns. I think in no way can she store her stuff there (what she has here would fill a decent trailer), plus again it's her boyfriend house. My mom seems to have been holding out hope that my sister was coming back, but she's not. It's really about my sister being too cheap to get a storage pod. I also think she's been reticent to let Delaware know that she's no longer a resident because then she would have to get a new license.

It's just incredible what's stored here- a big desktop computer from the late 90's, two laptops from the mid-2000's, her high school clothes, her college/early 20's clothes, her college textbooks that she wouldn't sell when she dropped out a second and final time, her daughter's baby clothes and baby toys, a table-top foosball table missing the foosball, a spicerack, full tupperware sets that have never been opened, Pepsi Cans from the Phantom Menace, two posters from the Phantom Menace that are filled with Mildew, her cheerleading memorabilia, etc etch. It's like a nostalgia fest for Gen Y in certain areas of the house. Not to mention DVD's and video cassette tapes, actual cassette tapes, etc etc. If you were a teenage girl who went to high school in the late 90's and then had her twentysomething years in the early/mid-2000's, you would probably recognize a lot of the crap that's stored in this house.

But yeah, we've been slowly but surely getting rid of stuff. Like we got rid of a broken t.v. from the late 90's, and I got rid of her chemistry lab notes from the 2002-2003 school year. The mold problem in my house is a bitch, but it makes a convenient excuse for getting rid of stuff.

It just fucking sucks though. She wouldn't take the hint the last couple visits where we put out all these boxes for her to put stuff away in, and we just had these empty boxes take up space in the garage.

Edited July 4, 2017 by methodwriter85

[Sun-Bun]

@methodwriter85, I'm with everyone else on this: your sister has had way too long and accumulated way too much crap to allow her to control that space you and your mom share for any longer. It's unhealthy, it's cruel, and it's a definite fire/mold hazard.

Mom needs to be the mom again and put her foot down: sister can either come get her shit or the Salvation Army truck can come get it instead. Her house, her rules---if it's all still there and not being used and likely unusable anyway, what's the point?

How horribly selfish of your sister to hold you all hostage like that, btw!! She's completely in the wrong here and needs to save her petty judgements of your own situation for the glass house she's currently living in. I can understand how she gets on your last nerve because she's on my nerves already and I don't even know her!

[BookWoman56]

From your description, I don't think  your sister is going to take any hints at all. An ultimatum might work, but she'd probably assume you're bluffing. However, I'd give her one last chance with this trip; make it clear she needs to get rid of the stuff. If that doesn't happen, then FFS just donate what you can and trash the rest. You can always tell her that because of a mold infestation, all her crap had to be removed. And that's more or less the truth, if you are already having problems with mold, it's only going to get worse given all the stuff there. I agree with @Sun-Bun that your sister is essentially holding you and your mom hostage. She's keeping her crap there in a way that dictates the use of the master bedroom, garage, and basement. If this were only a token box or two of memorabilia, it'd be different, but this is enough stuff that it needs either to have its own storage unit or it needs to go away. 

I went through something similar a few years ago when my son left a lot of his belongings with me because he was moving overseas; all his stuff filled up my spare bedroom. However, a good third of his stuff was crap that his stepmom had given him after his father died a couple of years previously. It was supposed to be things she had handpicked for him that had belonged to his dad, but most of the stuff was boxed when she gave it to him and he had never opened it.  Anyway, a spider infestation happened and I was checking all the boxes. His own stuff was mostly books and basic kitchen stuff; he'd gotten rid of any furniture before bringing the stuff over to my place.  The boxes that contained stuff that was supposed to be his dad's? His stepmom didn't handpick mementos for him; she essentially cleaned out her garage and boxed up things like hideous coffee mugs that still had a gift tag on them as a present from someone else to her, some of her old clothes, etc., with a few token items that actually were his dad's.  90% of it was the sort of junk that gets thrown into the junk closet or into the garage and forgotten about because nobody really wants it. To get rid of the spiders, I had to move a lot of that crap outside, and some of the boxes from his stepmom just never made it back inside.  Maybe I should feel guilty about that, but I saw no point in spending a huge amount of time and energy spraying down boxes of stuff that didn't even belong to his father and instead was stuff his stepmom had never gotten around to throwing out.

[riley702]

What a piece of work, BookWoman! The nerve of telling a young person you have hand-selected mementoes from their deceased parent and then emptying all of your crap into boxes and sealing it up! Did she even think about his feelings when he opened it?

[BookWoman56]

I try to tell myself that maybe the stuff was already boxed up and just mislabeled somehow, so she thought it was stuff that belonged to his dad. There were some things that definitely were his dad's but there was also just a lot of stuff that evoked a WTF response because it was obviously hers. But either way, no, she definitely did not go through his dad's belongings and pick stuff that she thought would be meaningful to him.  My gut feeling is that she kept anything nice and/or valuable, and gave him the discards.  For example, at the time his dad and I got married, his parents gave us a set of good silverware that had been in the family for a couple of generations; it was luncheon-sized silver instead of dinner-sized. When his dad and I divorced, obviously that set of silver belonged to him because it came from his family. Now, I would have thought the silverware should have gone to my son because it was not ever a gift to his stepmom, and belonged exclusively to his dad. However, it was nowhere to be found in the stuff she passed along to him. And it's not that my son has any huge need or desire to have a freaking luncheon-sized set of silver, but the principle of the thing pisses me off.  

[theredhead77]

@methodwriter85 add me to the list of how selfish of your sister. That said, if your mom thinks holding on to your sisters things is no big deal then it's really not your call. It's your moms house.
Perhaps you and your mom can begin boxing things up and discarding things that have mildew or mold on them (take photos of the mold and mildew). Clearly label the boxes.

I'm not against adult children storing things at their parents house, if the situation is OK with their parents. I still have some things from childhood stored in my parents garage; however they have the room for a couple Rubbermaid totes in their garage because I just don't have the room for those things where I live.

[backformore]

16 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

Here's the sitch with my sister- she lives in a townhouse with her boyfriend and her daughter in San Fransisco that her boyfriend owns. I think in no way can she store her stuff there (what she has here would fill a decent trailer), plus again it's her boyfriend house. My mom seems to have been holding out hope that my sister was coming back, but she's not. It's really about my sister being too cheap to get a storage pod. I also think she's been reticent to let Delaware know that she's no longer a resident because then she would have to get a new license.

One family I know took care of the problem this way -  they put furniture and boxes in a storage unit, and paid the first month's rent.  Then gave the family member who owned the items, the info on how to pay monthly, or get the items out.  Because when you don't pay, it's the storage facility that disposes of the crap, not the family. 

 

@BookWoman56 - I can relate.  when my grandmother died,  my mom asked each of us to select items we wanted.  Because none of the sisters  wanted the one item that my mom thought was the best (turns out she had bought it - a 50's style kitchen set) - she was pissed.  We each received lesser items than what we had asked for, and my brother got all the nicer items - all of the things my sisters and I had specifically asked for, he got.  It was out of spite.

[BookWoman56]

While I agree that because it's the mom's house, it's ultimately her decision on whether to keep or toss the stuff, from @methodwriter85's comments, it sounded as if the mom was also actively involved in getting rid of at least some of the stuff. Maybe she's not ready to tell her daughter to take all of her stuff, but is working her way up to it. I like @backformore's suggestion of moving the stuff to a storage unit and giving the sister the info on how to pay for the unit.  I have no issue with adult kids storing a few boxes of stuff with their parents, provided it doesn't cause space issues and the parents are okay with it, but when it has reached the point of a master bedroom, basement, and garage, that's really pushing the limits. To me, that's the kind of situation that would be okay in a very temporary situation, such as the sister moving and agreeing to come back and retrieve the stuff within 6 months or so after finding a new place.

However, I would also caution against storing items you really care about at your parents' home any longer than necessary. I had left some stuff at my parents' house a few years ago, because I had moved back in with them to care for them while my father was seriously ill and my mother was unable to deal with all of it. At the end of that period, I relocated back to where I am now, but missed a few boxes that were in the closet of the bedroom I'd used while there.  When my father died a couple of years later, I went back for the funeral but couldn't stay long because of my job. My mother by that time was having mobility issues and could no longer navigate the stairs in the house, and so it was decided she would go live with one of my sisters. My two older sisters were then stuck with cleaning out the house, with a ton of crap that my mother had collected, along with the usual household belongings. Evidently my boxes got tossed during the general cleanup, and I have nobody to blame for that but myself. It wasn't anything critical, but just memorabilia that I had hung onto.  It was the sort of stuff that I kept thinking I would collect during my next visit, but my next visit was for the funeral and I didn't even think about those boxes still being there.  Those items had meaning to me, but to anybody else might appear just as random stuff with no value.  To be clear, my sisters retrieved anything that was clearly of sentimental value, such as photographs and so forth; they weren't just tossing everything away, but my mother had boxes and boxes of old magazines and stuff that needed to be trashed, so it's not really surprising that my boxes got tossed. 

[methodwriter85]

Yeah, it's true. And honestly, a lot of shit HAS gotten wrecked because we have continual flooding problems in this house.

Of course, you know, my sister took the stuff she's actually going to use, like her Wii and such. Most of the stuff left here is just nostalgic junk because she never throws anything out.

I like the storage idea. I'm going to talk to my other sister about it.

[ZaldamoWilder]

On 7/3/2017 at 10:52 PM, Sun-Bun said:

@methodwriter85, I'm with everyone else on this: your sister has had way too long and accumulated way too much crap to allow her to control that space you and your mom share for any longer. It's unhealthy, it's cruel, and it's a definite fire/mold hazard.

Mom needs to be the mom again and put her foot down: sister can either come get her shit or the Salvation Army truck can come get it instead. Her house, her rules---if it's all still there and not being used and likely unusable anyway, what's the point?

How horribly selfish of your sister to hold you all hostage like that, btw!! She's completely in the wrong here and needs to save her petty judgements of your own situation for the glass house she's currently living in. I can understand how she gets on your last nerve because she's on my nerves already and I don't even know her!

to wit, if they service your area:  1-800-SA-TRUCK (1-800-728-7825).   Tax deductible, hang on to the receipt.

On 7/4/2017 at 0:47 AM, BookWoman56 said:

From your description, I don't think  your sister is going to take any hints at all. An ultimatum might work, but she'd probably assume you're bluffing. However, I'd give her one last chance with this trip; make it clear she needs to get rid of the stuff. If that doesn't happen, then FFS just donate what you can and trash the rest. You can always tell her that because of a mold infestation, all her crap had to be removed. And that's more or less the truth, if you are already having problems with mold, it's only going to get worse given all the stuff there. I agree with @Sun-Bun that your sister is essentially holding you and your mom hostage. She's keeping her crap there in a way that dictates the use of the master bedroom, garage, and basement. If this were only a token box or two of memorabilia, it'd be different, but this is enough stuff that it needs either to have its own storage unit or it needs to go away. 

 

{{shakeshead}}.  not if she's a true hoarder.  The real threats/promises of displacement, homelessness and city-issued certificates of condemnation don't incentivize true hoarders into action.

Love backformore's storage idea.   If there's anything wrong with it, with all yall's solutions (telling her it's a fire hazard and causing mold, etc), it's that they're way too logical.   There's no way you can appeal to someone who does this by asking them to be considerate, selfishness is at its core.  Even if she isn't a true hoarder, taking up 3 full rooms of a house you don't live in for shit that has been obsolete for 30 years is manipulative.    By the way, your birth order might have simply gotten you accustomed to having your opinion discounted so I get your response to her but you're a grown ass man.  If your living situation includes staying with and helping your mother and that's ok with your mother, the rest is none of her business.   Are you asking for her financial help?  Physical assistance with mom?  Emotional support?  No?  okay then.  Since you're gonna be bitched out anyway, I dunno how you feel about this but it seems like a perfect place for an invitation to her to feel free to shut the fuck up.   I'm sorry if that sounds callous.  You're being more than kind in taking her feelings into consideration when she's not all that concerned with yours.  

If you decide on storage, when she finds out "what you've done to her"  it'll probably be the new thing you and mom never ever stop hearing about, but at least it'll be gone.   A tougher issue might be that it sounds like your mom is as emotionally attached to the reason the stuff is there as your sister is attached to the stuff.   {{cyberhugs}} neither of you should be forced to live like that.

[theredhead77]

On 7/2/2017 at 9:39 PM, methodwriter85 said:

I'm in my early 30's and I live with my mother in her house. (Useless liberal arts degree, plus working in a minimum wage job= still living with your parents in your 30's. It's fine with my mom as long as I'm paying all the utilities and the t.v.)

The other option is, if you don't like your living situation, move out.

Find some roommates, get a second job (easier said than done, I realize), find a higher paying job. Your degree may be "useless" in your desire field of work but it's still a BA degree and makes you eligible for a multitude of "BA required" positions.

I know I sound like a bitch and probably like your sister but frankly you're complaining about a situation that you have no control over, that you choose to keep yourself in. 

 

17 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

Yeah, it's true. And honestly, a lot of shit HAS gotten wrecked because we have continual flooding problems in this house.

Of course, you know, my sister took the stuff she's actually going to use, like her Wii and such. Most of the stuff left here is just nostalgic junk because she never throws anything out.

I like the storage idea. I'm going to talk to my other sister about it.

Why are you talking with your sister and not your mother? It's her home.

[methodwriter85]

On 7/5/2017 at 0:40 PM, ZaldamoWilder said:

to wit, if they service your area:  1-800-SA-TRUCK (1-800-728-7825).   Tax deductible, hang on to the receipt.

{{shakeshead}}.  not if she's a true hoarder.  The real threats/promises of displacement, homelessness and city-issued certificates of condemnation don't incentivize true hoarders into action.

Love backformore's storage idea.   If there's anything wrong with it, with all yall's solutions (telling her it's a fire hazard and causing mold, etc), it's that they're way too logical.   There's no way you can appeal to someone who does this by asking them to be considerate, selfishness is at its core.  Even if she isn't a true hoarder, taking up 3 full rooms of a house you don't live in for shit that has been obsolete for 30 years is manipulative.    By the way, your birth order might have simply gotten you accustomed to having your opinion discounted so I get your response to her but you're a grown ass man.  If your living situation includes staying with and helping your mother and that's ok with your mother, the rest is none of her business.   Are you asking for her financial help?  Physical assistance with mom?  Emotional support?  No?  okay then.  Since you're gonna be bitched out anyway, I dunno how you feel about this but it seems like a perfect place for an invitation to her to feel free to shut the fuck up.   I'm sorry if that sounds callous.  You're being more than kind in taking her feelings into consideration when she's not all that concerned with yours.  

If you decide on storage, when she finds out "what you've done to her"  it'll probably be the new thing you and mom never ever stop hearing about, but at least it'll be gone.   A tougher issue might be that it sounds like your mom is as emotionally attached to the reason the stuff is there as your sister is attached to the stuff.   {{cyberhugs}} neither of you should be forced to live like that.

Thanks. It's tough but I'll get through it. She might actually behave herself this trip, though. That's the thing about her- sometimes she's really nice until she turns into a total bitch.

[hoosier80]

I've been fighting a sinus infection/ear infection/upper respiratory infection for a few weeks now.  Started right before the 4th.  I planned to travel to mom's for a short weekend (we didn't get the 3rd off - which I think I could have taken off, but was like no).  Long weekends do not end well.  Short and sweet.  Well I had sharp pains in my ear start on 6/30, late afternoon.  I was like oh let me take some cold meds and I'll be ok.  Planned a few things to take and make.  Woke up next morning feeling like crap.  Mom was actually ok with it.  Whatever crud I had seemed to go away, then a week later - blammo.  Back again.  I got into doc and got meds.  Still just really tired (plus monster project at work I got added into at 11th hour isn't helping).  So she said I guess you're not coming this weekend.  Nope.  I am still not feeling great - most of yesterday I was resting.  I did nothing today.  Talked to her last night and she was all ok.  She calls today crying and just "I'm sick".  I'm like what?  No it's my backyard.  It looks awful.  Now I've given her names of companies to call; she had one out for spring cleanup but she now said they did an awful job (after giving them glowing marks initially).  I was half asleep and was like what?  I had just given her names the other night.  No I need a name from xxxx (an online list).  I said I have given  you every name from that blankety blank list!!!!   Phone went silent.  She thought she'd hung up and I could hear her - I was on mute.  She was watching tv, and snacking.  I kept thinking about it, and really what she wants is for me to do her bidding.  I have decided no way.  She went out of her way to add way more garden space than anyone around her.  Her next door neighbor, who is still working, early 60's has added a couple things in the back, so now it's a keeping up with the Joneses.  She has HUGE bushes in the back, carved out flower beds where other folks (it's a condo group) have just grass.  The whole idea was to have less work, and she made 200% more work. 

The kicker.  I have to work on that project at work next weekend.  I already told her, but she'll have a fit.  She called back (I just left it go to vm).  Message was that she never heard such language and I should be ashamed not helping her, and I hadn't been there for over 4 weeks.  How I didn't feel ashamed and only thought of myself.  Now, I had to leave work early I was so sick, missed days at work (sick), and I've done nothing at my house - my weeds are knee high or higher!!  But I should do her work first.  Not happening.  I'd thought about inviting her here once I got some stuff done next fall or winter.  Very, very doubtful.  I hate to be that way, but I can't stand the mood swings, and the pouting if stuff does not go her way.  I mean she had a handyman who didn't show up and she was in an extremely dark mood that day.  Shit happens.  It happens to those of us who go out into the world every damned day.  But she's always been about the drama, so it's a HUGE deal if something does not go the way she wants.    I knew it wasn't really about her yard, it's about not getting her way.

And the thing is, I found a very reputable company through some other sites.  She was ranting, I need someone who has been in the business a while.  Yeah this guy is BBB A+ rating, in business for almost 20 years.  Silence.    So I fully expect it to be a cycle of 'Angry Mom' for a while.  I was just lucky to get in a few good weeks.  This infection may actually go on for a while.........I'm so bad.  Not int he mood to go there one bit.  Thanks for letting me vent.

 

.

[BookWoman56]

I have found myself in a situation that is causing a lot of stress. Around the first of the year, for a variety of reasons, my son, DIL, and grandson relocated from overseas and moved in with me. This was supposed to be a temporary solution until they both found jobs. They both signed up for some local courses to assist with getting jobs, and completed the courses. My DIL found a job after about 3 months, but my son has not. There is some family history here. His dad and I divorced when he was about 3, and his dad insisted on full custody. At the time, I was in grad school and teaching a couple of classes a week, barely scraping by, while his dad had a regular job and so forth. So, it made sense. Consequently, I had never spent a lot of ongoing time with my son since then; we would do the occasional two weeks at a time, and shorter visits on a regular basis. After he moved overseas, we communicated via skype, email, and so forth but not in person.  What I've discovered after having him and his wife and son live with me for half a year is that he got many of his dad's negative behaviors, and they're driving me nuts.  He and his wife are constantly arguing with each other, yelling a lot. (His dad's family yelled all the time; I come from a family that might raise our voice once a decade.) He's also picked up his dad's sexist attitudes. So, his wife is working, and he's sitting at home mostly surfing the internet and watching sports on tv, with a job interview roughly once a month. I'm working two jobs; my daughter, who is the other resident of our home, is in her first year of college and about to start a part-time job on top of that.  Yet he expects his wife to do the majority of cooking meals. They go into the kitchen when she gets off from work, cook and eat, and leave the kitchen a total disaster. My son will get up the following morning, drive her to work, go back to bed, and get up around noon and clean up the kitchen somewhat. That is, he'll unload the dishwasher from the previous day, reload it, and turn it on. Wiping down the stovetop and counters seems to be a foreign concept to him. So, 90% of the time, the kitchen is a mess unless I go in after them at night or first thing in the morning, and...I'm too fucking old to be cleaning up after a couple of grown-ass people.  I have made up my mind that I'm giving them a deadline of 3 months to find their own place, and at this point, my feeling is that they need to move whether or not my son has found a job. He seems perfectly content to just rely on me to pay for housing and a few other things, while his wife makes enough to enable them to pay for their own groceries and spending money, and I feel that unless I light a fire under him, he's just going to coast along putting in the absolute minimum effort into finding a job. 

However, the final straw has more or less occurred this week. The living space that was perfectly fine for me and my daughter is much too small for three additional people, and so I have just bought a house with roughly double the square footage. It has some features I had been looking for (even without the need for extra space), so them being here wasn't my only motivation for doing so. But we have known for a couple of weeks now when the house would be finished and that we'd be moving this weekend. I had gotten pulled into some last-minute projects at work last week and this week, so Friday was my first actual day off, and that was also the day I had to do the final walk-through plus closing. I had mentioned to my son several days ago, after I arranged for a moving truck and crew to load and unload the truck, that everything needed to get boxed up ready to go, and that the kitchen stuff would take the longest because of dishes and so forth. So, while I've been dealing with crazy work hours this week, my daughter has been studying for and taking finals, my son has packed up the stuff in their bedroom. His contribution toward packing up any of the kitchen stuff was to assemble about a dozen boxes; he commented that he stopped there because he ran out of packing tape.  WTF? You can't take the initiative to go to the store and get some more packing tape? My daughter managed to pack up her own stuff and about half the kitchen; I've done my own stuff and about 25% of the kitchen. I have stated several times today that the rest of the stuff in the kitchen needs packing, and...mostly crickets. My son and my DIL are both just suggesting that my daughter, who is over at the new place with the various animals to keep them out from under foot while the loading takes place, should be the one to finish packing the kitchen. And it's not even like the kitchen stuff is all my stuff; they brought a ton of countertop appliances with them, have insisted on buying their own dishes, and have some cookware and utensils that are theirs as well. But they can't be bothered to pack that. And so I am ready to tell both of them to just go fuck themselves. I should not have to be playing the "I have a bad back, am in severe pain right now, and can't do any more for a while, so you need to pitch in a bit here" card.  What makes it doubly infuriating is that kind of bullshit is exactly why I divorced his dad; I thought I'd escaped it but dealing with my son is much too similar to dealing with his dad. 

Edited July 29, 2017 by BookWoman56

[DeLurker]

I'd take care of packing up the kitchen so I could separate their stuff from yours.  Don't let them unpack any of it in the new place.  That will give them a jump on packing when they move.

I think you've been more than patient with all of this.  Tell them they need to find a new place by X.  It isn't your intention, but this not responsible life style is being enabled by you (and I know that was not the plan ever).   And with the move & new housing expenses for you, tell them they need to start paying you rent for the duration of their stay.  Pick a number below market, but big enough to infringe on their comfort level.  If you feel generous when they move out, save some of it to give back to them to help cover the expenses associated with a new place.

Use the move to the new house as a natural transition point to make new house rules.  Regardless of how their personal relationship is run, tell them the kitchen and all needs to be cleaned up and everything put away by X o'clock.  Don't care who does it, but it needs to be done.  Same with the yelling - yelling is ok if you are telling me to call 911 or an ax wielding maniac is standing right behind me.  

I think you've said you work from home - you'll need work time to be respected and he really needs to be out networking, interviewing, working with a placement agency or temp agency to facilitate their lifestyle. 

[auntlada]

You're nicer than me, @DeLurker. I'd pack up everything but their stuff and tell them if they want it, they'd better pack it up.

[Bastet]

You're all nicer than me, because I'd have taken the purchase of a new house as the point to say, "By the way, you're not coming with me when I move.  We lose possession of this place as of X date, so you'll need to be out by then."

Since that ship has sailed, I agree with setting a firm date for them to be out and with enforcing clean-up rules from moment one in the new place.

[BookWoman56]

Thanks for the advice, everyone.  I just needed a reality check for a minute. I am taking all of this coming week off, to get settled into the new place and decompress a bit. During that time, though, I will have the serious convo with them where I lay out some conditions about keeping the kitchen in good shape and that they need to be in their own place within 3 months, come hell or high water. I had let things slide for a while because until at least one of them had a job, I didn't want to put my grandson at risk for ending up without decent housing. But at this point, they should be able to afford their own place, even if it's not great housing.  I understand that they're under some stress as well, what with relocating and just being at that point in marriage (5 years in) where the cracks in the relationship are really starting to show. But I have zero desire to witness their relationship drama and want things to be where I see them enough to feel close, but not so much that I want to kill them.  I will say that they generally respect my work time, and their arguments are usually in the evenings when I'm off work. However, that doesn't change the fact that their conduct is just not acceptable to me; I know there are people who enjoy dramatic arguments and so forth, but I don't tolerate them in my own relationships and don't want to listen to somebody else's arguments. 

It is unsettling in many ways to see the same behaviors that made my marriage to my son's dad a living hell manifest themselves in his own behavior as an adult. And I know that many of my ex-husband's behaviors were in turn formed by the way his parents interacted. But while I can intellectually understand how these behaviors get passed down from one generation to another, I can't psychologically deal with having to witness it firsthand on an ongoing basis.

[DeLurker]

13 hours ago, BookWoman56 said:

t is unsettling in many ways to see the same behaviors that made my marriage to my son's dad a living hell manifest themselves in his own behavior as an adult. And I know that many of my ex-husband's behaviors were in turn formed by the way his parents interacted. But while I can intellectually understand how these behaviors get passed down from one generation to another, I can't psychologically deal with having to witness it firsthand on an ongoing basis.

Ignoring the similarities between him and his   Dad, would you willingly let someone unrelated to you in your life ( and home) with those traits? Probably not.  Are you walking on eggshells because of how he acts like his dad?  

He's an adult and makes choices about his behavior, words and activities on a daily basis.  A lot of people grow up in dysfunctional households. Some recognize learned behavior and actively work to modify behaviors that have been ingrained because they recognize they aren't healthy for them and effects their relationships with others.

[Petunia13]

I've been wanting to post about my mother for about a month or so. We don't live with each other but in the same town - also she dog sits my dog. She is unmedicated bipolar and just can be very selfish and has said some extremely cruel things. It's almost like the most hurtful or vulnerable times she has lashed out verbally and sometimes physically. Like when my dogs been sick or injured, whenever I've been hurt with broken bones or cuts (I was in an abusive relationship for a few years), holidays, graduations, my prom. I don't have a father and my sister is a sociopath who was recently released from prison for robbery, drugs, and attempted murder. 

My mom plays like she's a victim and born again Christian and so socially pc but has called me a loser, poor, the r word, said that at my core I've always been unlikable, I'm a regret, natural failure. Sometimes after a bit I think she gets an attack of guilt or boredom or need something and pretends it never happened and I kow tow to her with flowers, groceries, gifts and ki ki. Then she'll scream at me or one day throw my gift in the trash unopened in disgust  calling me a desperate idiot or annoying and it begins again. 

I don't always have the easiest time I live in a very wealthy area so there's a lot of privilege and injustice. I work retail at a male dominated store in a tedious role. I'm neurotic so get easily flustered, worried, and insecure. The one person who should see some good  in me doesn't. It is a lonely feeling. More than anything it's the fact she's screamed all this at me and acted peculiar this way to my dog. I mean have some fucking responsibility and dignity. I get it you feel like crap or you think I'm shit in every category, but like accept there's differences and standards be an adult. There's no shame whatsoever she's done this name calling rampage in public in front of friends and a couple years ago at my work. 

[hoosier80]

Well, I've been sick (for real) and unable to get to Mom's for a good two months now.  She's been complaining about her flower beds.  Didn't like the last company who did the maintenance.  I was like she is so wanting me to do it.  I even found more companies for her, people who've been in the business for years.  Oh, I called this guy and they were unprofessional.  Called the one she was excited about, and no response.  I was like she wants me to do it.  She really wants to get her pound of flesh out of me, so to speak.  So I just volunteered to email this guy.   Oh no do NOT do that!!!  I just said, I cannot do it.  I am still not feeling great, second prescription still isn't making me feel that much better.  Well, I called it.  She so wanted me to be busting my ass doing it.  Now, she's all mad.  Just when I need some help, and how I helped you.  No, you had to get involved, had to - had to run me, control me.  I said fine, I'll come and do it.  No, I do not want you to come here AT ALL.  Works for me.

I am laughing though, because I KNEW it.

 She's got way too much to manage; she planted all this stuff without any thought to the future.  Some of the bushes are taller than I am, and she wants pruning done - very picky pruning.  I know now how she wants stuff, but it's like shaping stuff, making sure everything is perfectly even.  She used to go outside every day to maintain stuff.  Every day.  She loved doing it, but no thought to the day when she couldn't do that any more.   She was happy at her house then; only after she couldn't be out and doing her stuff in the yard did she suddenly tell me her dream was to live with me.  Before that, her dream was to have that large garden.  

I refuse to feel guilty, especially since I'm not feeling well.  Sinus/upper respiratory/ear infection.  Ear is hurting like hell once again.  

[Petunia13]

@hoosier80 I don't want to step out of line or offend but is it possible she is a narcissist? I studied this a bit recently and some of the things said are ringing bells. 

[BookWoman56]

On 8/1/2017 at 8:36 PM, hoosier80 said:

She's got way too much to manage; she planted all this stuff without any thought to the future.  Some of the bushes are taller than I am, and she wants pruning done - very picky pruning.  I know now how she wants stuff, but it's like shaping stuff, making sure everything is perfectly even.  She used to go outside every day to maintain stuff.  Every day.  She loved doing it, but no thought to the day when she couldn't do that any more.   She was happy at her house then; only after she couldn't be out and doing her stuff in the yard did she suddenly tell me her dream was to live with me.  Before that, her dream was to have that large garden.  

I refuse to feel guilty, especially since I'm not feeling well.  Sinus/upper respiratory/ear infection.  Ear is hurting like hell once again.  

My parents did something similar but with different results. They had roughly 1.5 acres and did some heavy landscaping. For years the yard was their pride and joy, and they did all the work themselves. However, as they got older, it became increasingly more difficult for them to handle all of it themselves. Given the size of the yard, getting outside help was cost-prohibitive; people were quoting $300/month just to cut the damn grass, much less do any weeding in the flowerbeds and so forth. So, they scaled back. My father was able to do the lawn himself; he'd been using a riding lawn mower for years because of the size of the yard. They decided on a few flowerbeds they wanted to retain and that they could handle. Anything else was just reverted to grass. When my father died, my mother couldn't stay in the house because of mobility issues, but if she had been able to stay there, some additional adjustments would have been necessary. One of my nephews could have handled cutting the grass, but the remaining flowerbeds would have had to go, and any flowers would have been in pots.  

Essentially, I wouldn't begrudge anybody the satisfaction they can derive from gardening, but when you are no longer able to do the work yourself, you can pay someone else to do it, rely on family who may not be able to do it regularly or willingly, or let it go. It is simply unreasonable of your mother to expect you to travel a considerable distance to do her gardening for her, especially when she refuses to consider using outside help. Obviously, your being sick is even more reason not to do this, but that's not really the issue here. Your mother is demanding things of you that are just not feasible for you, and is refusing to consider options that make way more sense.  Look, if she was asking you to take her on an occasional basis to medical appointments when absolutely nobody else local is available to do so, that would be different. But she's asking you to come do heavy gardening for her, as well as other major chores IIRC from what you've said previously, and instead of showing some damn gratitude that you can help her, bitches and moans that you can't do it at all or can't do it exactly the way she wants it done.

[Petunia13]

Ack! My younger half sister who I discussed in thread (sociopath, ex felon) just texted me from a new number this message. 

Notice she doesn't even identify herself which is a tell that on some level she knows she's on some sketch stalking shit with the burner numbers.  I've gotten a lot of outlandish messages from her about diseases and car accidents after I met her and money windfalls  and realized she's very crazy and scary af. One thing she said when I DID talk to her monthes ago was "I don't regret anything that happened because I learned from it and it made me who I am today." Now that's a nice platitude and something one hears often but not by a person who's shot people. Usually remorse or repentance would be kewl. Another thing I mentioned conversationally was I love chat/talk boards and YouTube. She said in the most cold dead pan bored way "why would other people's opinions matter?" Like if I just said something so foreign and hard to fathom her tone as if I said my hobby was preparing warm tap water. 

She said and did other things besides that is that made it clear I would never enjoy or want to speak to her that nothing good would come from her contact or company. 

Our mother, who is bipolar, is not without her issues with me. But regarding this matter... She won't speak to her and cut off the girl while she was in prison. I told mother about her daughter/my sibling messaging and texting me a bunch even with no reply and she basically was like it's your problem dummy. 

[BookWoman56]

I am a cruel heartless bitch, but based on what you've said about your half-sister, my response would probably be, "You thought wrong." 

[ZaldamoWilder]

As I was reading, I thought, you know, each of you have your own attention-requiring issues in your lives.  What if, instead of out of guilt or obligation or habit, you chose to respond from a place of priority? 

Answer this in your head.  Don't hesitate to feel free to do it out loud if you'd like to share. 

The worst that could happen to me, if I began caring at least as much about myself as I do about [_________] is  [_________].  

The current benefit to me for continuing to participate is [_________].  

If I didn't intervene, [_________] would solve this problem by [_______].

[_________] feelings are more important than mine because [________].

If I said no [________________________________________________________].

 

On 8/7/2017 at 10:21 PM, Petunia13 said:

Another thing I mentioned conversationally was I love chat/talk boards and YouTube. She said in the most cold dead pan bored way "why would other people's opinions matter?"

I may not agree with how she meant it, but the kid's got a point.    You're watching their backs, they're watching their backs.   Who's watching yours?

[Cherry Bomb]

I have been reading this thread and I understand people have issues going and sometimes things have to be done for your best interest. This being said and myself being brand new here I just want to add this. Whatever any of you are going through with your family, may it be your parents or siblings don't let the issue at hand stand between the bind you have as family. Let me tell you why I say that, it is because you never know when it can be taken away in a split second. You may all be saying I have heard that all before, well I live it every single day with my older sister. When I was 17 and my sister was 20 we received the worst phone call you could possibly imagine getting. I remember seeing my sisters face while standing there with the phone to her ear and then hanging up and stumbling through her words, "We have to go to the hospital now." Well we did not make it in time as both my parents passed from injuries from a car accident. All my past teen arguments with my Mom and Dad in the next several months surfaced and there wasn't a damn thing I could do about it. My older sister and I would fight and disagree like Cats and Dogs, but something snapped in especially her that day as she all of the sudden became an adult. Sure we disagree to this day, but by the end of the day it is worked out. I am 22 now and she is 25 and like I said there are things I can't get back, but between my sister and I there will never be things like that. This is just something to think about and keep your family close to you.

[Petunia13]

Fair enough @Cherry Bomb but like I mentioned up top even after my sibling did 12 crimes including a drive by shooting I still tried to be kind to her and involved...and learned she's still as crazy and mean. She's a sociopath (word thrown around casually day to day but as I mentioned she always been violent, has no conscience, pathological liar, never cried entire life even as a child until the day she saw I was cutting her off and then it was v theatrical, has harmed animals randomly, and is very antisocial, and that's not changing. Also, I feel some guilt and some anger at this point towards her. 

@ZaldamoWilder maybe I explained it wrong. It seemed weird to me that someone would have zero interest in hearing anyone else's views or insights. The other persons talkings or writings may agree or notice something I didn't or make a joke. They may challenge my perceptions. I dislike most people very much and one of my greatest pleasures in life if bloggers, vloggers, podcasts. Even a misanthrope can find value in others words or see there might be more expert analysis. 

[Cherry Bomb]

2 minutes ago, Petunia13 said:

Fair enough @Cherry Bomb but like I mentioned up top even after my sibling did 12 crimes including a drive by shooting I still tried to be kind to her and involved...and learned she's still as crazy and mean. She's a sociopath (word thrown around casually day to day but as I mentioned she always been violent, has no conscience, pathological liar, never cried entire life even as a child until the day she saw I was cutting her off and then it was v theatrical, has harmed animals randomly, and is very antisocial, and that's not changing. Also, I feel some guilt and some anger at this point towards her. 

@ZaldamoWilder maybe I explained it wrong. It seemed weird to me that someone would have zero interest in hearing anyone else's views or insights. The other persons talkings or writings may agree or notice something I didn't or make a joke. They may challenge my perceptions. I dislike most people very much and one of my greatest pleasures in life if bloggers, vloggers, podcasts. Even a misanthrope can find value in others words or see there might be more expert analysis. 

@Petunia13 I totally understand that. When things become illegal and violent those situations definitely can leave you stone cold to family. The weird thing and I am taking this from an example I read in an article about Charles Manson's son. When Manson was said to be on his death bed his son wanted nothing more to go to his side to say he loved him. As crazy as that sounds, he truly stilled loved him. I have never walked in your shoes and I can only imagine how difficult it can be to have someone that you call family both destroy their lives and also attempt to take you down as well. There is a point though where you have to say to yourself is this safe for me to be around this person and if it is not than you have to do what you have to do for yourself. Hopefully someday your sibling will see that what she is doing is destroying herself and her family and change and maybe then you can start a process of mending things.

[ZaldamoWilder]

22 hours ago, Petunia13 said:

Fair enough @Cherry Bomb but like I mentioned up top even after my sibling did 12 crimes including a drive by shooting I still tried to be kind to her and involved...and learned she's still as crazy and mean. She's a sociopath (word thrown around casually day to day but as I mentioned she always been violent, has no conscience, pathological liar, never cried entire life even as a child until the day she saw I was cutting her off and then it was v theatrical, has harmed animals randomly, and is very antisocial, and that's not changing. Also, I feel some guilt and some anger at this point towards her. 

@ZaldamoWilder maybe I explained it wrong. It seemed weird to me that someone would have zero interest in hearing anyone else's views or insights. The other persons talkings or writings may agree or notice something I didn't or make a joke. They may challenge my perceptions. I dislike most people very much and one of my greatest pleasures in life if bloggers, vloggers, podcasts. Even a misanthrope can find value in others words or see there might be more expert analysis. 

Nah, you explained it perfectly.  Other people aren't more important to her and therefore, their opinions don't matter either.    I was saying I agree with the part of that that emphasizes placing priority on yourself.    As, prioritizing other people's needs/wants/opinions/requests ahead of our own is one of the things that posters in this thread have in common.  

Cherry Bomb, losing your parents like that sounds unimaginable.  I'm very sorry.   It is a lovely testament to their memory that it changed your relationship with your sister for the better and altered your perspective about conflict.  

Your overall message is also lovely.   But for some, the cost of keeping your family close is too high.   In families where things like danger, toxicity, abuse, hostility are regular, being close might be a terrible idea, even if it's possible.    Trust and intimacy are too precious to keep rebuilding for folks who've proven they just might not deserve it.   I wish people allowed themselves the permission to detach from the idea that you owe it to your family to tolerate dysfunction because they raised you, because they clothed you, because they fed you, because they put you through college, because one day they won't be here, because they're. your. family.  Because they're your family is the reason not to be shitty in the first place.   If I tell my story, someone will invariably say omg, what? there is nothing my parents could do for me to stop speaking to them.   My stock answer is, yeah there is, they just haven't done it.    Anyway, to your point reconciliation is the goal of every strained relationship.   Reconciling is another story.  

[PRgal]

Many of you here might know that I blog.  I had a lifestyle blog for many years, but have now revamped the site and am blogging under a url with my own name.  I've recently published something on how I feel regarding cultural conflict (parents are immigrants) with strong references to family (and it's only part one of many...).  While it's brought me comfort to openly talk about it, I can't help but wonder if they're going to be angry at me for being so public about this...can anyone relate? 

[DeLurker]

I do and suspect many others would too.  Most of us have those topics that are verboten to speak about outside the family.  Often in the family, it has to be done discreetly and in hushed tones.

[BookWoman56]

5 hours ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

Your overall message is also lovely.   But for some, the cost of keeping your family close is too high.   In families where things like danger, toxicity, abuse, hostility are regular, being close might be a terrible idea, even if it's possible.    Trust and intimacy are too precious to keep rebuilding for folks who've proven they just might not deserve it.   I wish people allowed themselves the permission to detach from the idea that you owe it to your family to tolerate dysfunction because they raised you, because they clothed you, because they fed you, because they put you through college, because one day they won't be here, because they're. your. family.  Because they're your family is the reason not to be shitty in the first place.   If I tell my story, someone will invariably say omg, what? there is nothing my parents could do for me to stop speaking to them.   My stock answer is, yeah there is, they just haven't done it.    Anyway, to your point reconciliation is the goal of every strained relationship.   Reconciling is another story.  

I think the other thing to consider is that just because someone is a family member doesn't mean there is a bond, or if there is, that the bond is a good one. My older sisters and I have been essentially estranged from our younger sister for years; the last contact we had with her was a few years ago when our father died. We have agreed that after our mother dies, there is no reason for any contact ever again. That is, yes, we will notify her once our mother dies and provide info on the funeral arrangements, and not get into any major fights while the funeral is going on.  There have just been too many times, as an adult, when she has screwed over our parents and taken advantage of each of us when we were trying to help her out. She has gone through money she inherited when her first husband died, spending it on drugs and so forth, and has chosen to be married to someone who is generally unemployed and on drugs, while she has milked a very minor workplace injury for every dime she can, and constantly bitches and moans that she can't get the system to classify her as disabled so she can collect disability benefits to which she is not really entitled. There has simply been too much damage done in her adult life for me and my older sisters to have the slightest interest in maintaining a relationship. I know the obvious question might be, what about the bond you had when you were younger? Shouldn't that count for something? In this case, no, the only bond I ever had with her was dysfunctional. Throughout my childhood, she was a bully, constantly hitting, shoving, knocking me down, etc. She didn't usually do those things to other kids, just me.  OTOH, she frequently falsely accused me of physically hurting her, attempting to get me in trouble with our parents. I literally cannot think of a single act of kindness or support from her during our childhood or adolescence.  So the argument that might be made that she is family and I should try to reconcile with her just won't fly with me. I have not the slightest desire to reconcile, because reconciliation implies that there was a solid relationship at some point.  In this situation, that's just not the case. 

With other family members, I fully recognize that nobody is perfect. But in the case of my parents and other siblings, I can look at the totality of our relationships and decide that okay, despite the fact that he or she did XYZ, I still value the relationship because overall it was a good relationship. With my younger sister, there's no foundation there to support any forgiveness or reconciliation, and I have no qualms in feeling that if I never see her again, it won't bother me. 

[DeLurker]

Most people don't get to the point where they consciously make the decision to sever a relationship without giving it a lot of consideration as well as years of trying.

For those who post here, it usually comes after a lot of hard lessons.

[AgentRXS]

Quote

Your overall message is also lovely.   But for some, the cost of keeping your family close is too high.   In families where things like danger, toxicity, abuse, hostility are regular, being close might be a terrible idea, even if it's possible.    Trust and intimacy are too precious to keep rebuilding for folks who've proven they just might not deserve it.   I wish people allowed themselves the permission to detach from the idea that you owe it to your family to tolerate dysfunction because they raised you, because they clothed you, because they fed you, because they put you through college, because one day they won't be here, because they're. your. family.  Because they're your family is the reason not to be shitty in the first place.   If I tell my story, someone will invariably say omg, what? there is nothing my parents could do for me to stop speaking to them.   My stock answer is, yeah there is, they just haven't done it.    Anyway, to your point reconciliation is the goal of every strained relationship.   Reconciling is another story.  

Quote

So the argument that might be made that she is family and I should try to reconcile with her just won't fly with me. I have not the slightest desire to reconcile, because reconciliation implies that there was a solid relationship at some point.  In this situation, that's just not the case. 

This is the case between my siblings and our mother.  She's lied and stolen money from all 3 of us; she used to embarrass us and cause scenes in public if we refused to give her money or go along with her bullshit. She tried to sell my virginity to 3-4 of the neighborhood boys behind my back. When I used to complain to friends, especially friends that lost their mother, they would say "She's still your mother. She gave you life. You should never turn your back on her".

I last saw my mother in 2006, when my dad (they've been divorced almost 30 years)  had to PAY her in order for her to sign off on some school documents so I could attend and get financial aid.  She was perfectly content to put my chance at a higher education in jeopardy, unless something was in it for her.  I haven't seen or spoken to her since....and I don't feel any kind of way about it. I don't miss her, she never comes up in conversation, and holidays like Mothers Day don't even register on my radar. When she does pass away, I can't imagine that I'll feel remorse or sadness. I mourned the mother I never got to have a long time ago. And between my grandmother, and strong TV female characters like Roseanne, Claire Huxtable, and the Golden Girls....I shaped myself into the woman I wanted to be.  It sounds corny as fuck, but I am so grateful I grew up in that television era, because those shows were my lifeline during a turbulent upbringing. Roseanne (the character) especially, because she wasn't cookie-cutter gorgeous, her character was lower-middle-class/poor like me, and her household wasn't perfect....but she always made a way out of no way......and that inspired me to do the same.

Sorry for the rambling.....all this to say.....no one should ever feel bad about ending a toxic relationship, no matter who tells you different. The only one living your life and feeling your emotions is you. Like my grandmother always told me: Look out for yourself first, then worry about everyone else.

Edited August 12, 2017 by AgentRXS

[auntlada]

@BookWoman56, people like your sister are the reason people who really are disabled have so many problems getting on disability. I do not blame you a bit. I don't know her, and I don't like her.

[BookWoman56]

@auntlada, to clarify, she did have a real workplace injury that required surgery, and she was actually unable to work for roughly a year, for which she received some sort of workers compensation payment. Since then, though, she prefers to do as little as possible. Her physical limitations from the injury prevent her from lifting anything heavy, but it's not as if her previous job required heavy lifting, and she refuses to get any sort of vocational training for other types of jobs that would not require any heavy lifting.  She's barely computer literate; her first husband, who died, was adamantly opposed to her acquiring any skills that might enable her to support herself.  But that was over 25 years ago, and she's had the opportunity since then to acquire either additional education or vocational training, and she couldn't be bothered. She just has been fundamentally lazy most of her life, and the fact that she can point to a workplace injury that occurred 15 years ago enables her to claim, to people who don't know any better, that it prevents her from having any kind of paid employment. Obviously she exaggerates the extent of the injury; she's submitted the paperwork a few times to the SSA to try to qualify for disability benefits, but they're not buying it. And while I would concede that she is prevented from doing some types of employment because of her workplace injury, FFS it's not like she was ever going to pursue a job that required a lot of manual labor.  

[Cherry Bomb]

On 8/11/2017 at 3:57 PM, ZaldamoWilder said:

Nah, you explained it perfectly.  Other people aren't more important to her and therefore, their opinions don't matter either.    I was saying I agree with the part of that that emphasizes placing priority on yourself.    As, prioritizing other people's needs/wants/opinions/requests ahead of our own is one of the things that posters in this thread have in common.  

Cherry Bomb, losing your parents like that sounds unimaginable.  I'm very sorry.   It is a lovely testament to their memory that it changed your relationship with your sister for the better and altered your perspective about conflict.  

Your overall message is also lovely.   But for some, the cost of keeping your family close is too high.   In families where things like danger, toxicity, abuse, hostility are regular, being close might be a terrible idea, even if it's possible.    Trust and intimacy are too precious to keep rebuilding for folks who've proven they just might not deserve it.   I wish people allowed themselves the permission to detach from the idea that you owe it to your family to tolerate dysfunction because they raised you, because they clothed you, because they fed you, because they put you through college, because one day they won't be here, because they're. your. family.  Because they're your family is the reason not to be shitty in the first place.   If I tell my story, someone will invariably say omg, what? there is nothing my parents could do for me to stop speaking to them.   My stock answer is, yeah there is, they just haven't done it.    Anyway, to your point reconciliation is the goal of every strained relationship.   Reconciling is another story.  

@ZaldamoWilder I totally understand where you are coming from. My situation is my situation and it brought my sister and I closer. We never really had a horrible relationship prior to my parents accident and death so that made it easier. We just had many different hurdles to overcome like me having to see my sister as not just a sister, but also at times as a parent figure. I was quite weird for a short period of time to adjust to.  I understand that some things are way too much to keep family close, but there is also always the possibility of change and reconciliation. Everyone should keep an open mind to that even in the most severe cases. Sure it may never happen and people just go on with their lives separately, but there is the possibility of someone changing. All I am saying is for people to keep an open mind. Not to pursue anything to heal the relationships. The thing is there will come a time where keeping an open mind about someone will go away in an instance. 

[auntlada]

2 hours ago, BookWoman56 said:

@auntlada, to clarify, she did have a real workplace injury that required surgery, and she was actually unable to work for roughly a year, for which she received some sort of workers compensation payment. Since then, though, she prefers to do as little as possible. Her physical limitations from the injury prevent her from lifting anything heavy, but it's not as if her previous job required heavy lifting, and she refuses to get any sort of vocational training for other types of jobs that would not require any heavy lifting.  She's barely computer literate; her first husband, who died, was adamantly opposed to her acquiring any skills that might enable her to support herself.  But that was over 25 years ago, and she's had the opportunity since then to acquire either additional education or vocational training, and she couldn't be bothered. She just has been fundamentally lazy most of her life, and the fact that she can point to a workplace injury that occurred 15 years ago enables her to claim, to people who don't know any better, that it prevents her from having any kind of paid employment. Obviously she exaggerates the extent of the injury; she's submitted the paperwork a few times to the SSA to try to qualify for disability benefits, but they're not buying it. And while I would concede that she is prevented from doing some types of employment because of her workplace injury, FFS it's not like she was ever going to pursue a job that required a lot of manual labor.  

Yeah, I'm not disabled at all, and I couldn't do a job that required heavy lifting. I'm just weak.

My dad was turned down twice before getting disability at age 59. He had a degenerative brain disorder that had some symptoms similar to Parkinsons. His hands shook, and he couldn't walk well, had trouble swallowing, had trouble talking clearly (combined with his southeastern-like Okie accent, that made him almost impossible to understand at times) and had trouble controlling his emotions. The doctors were excited when he was finally diagnosed because apparently it was relatively rare.

He lived about 15 years after his diagnosis and could still walk, although not for long and not quickly. His doctors were always surprised. He died two months before my son was born. He choked while eating and had a heart attack. My mom still blames herself that she couldn't make the Heimlich maneuver work as she'd before, even though it's not her fault.

A lawyer or accountant or somebody tol Mom and Dad that it usually takes at least three applications to disability before you are approved. I figure it's because of people who aren't really disabled who keep applying for it.

[methodwriter85]

Well, the visit with my sister came and went. She was relatively well-behaved, although she did bitch out my mom for "ruining" her pleated dress by running it the washer. She did pack up more stuff, although still not everything. We are going to start the process of moving my mother's stuff into the master bedroom, though.

[Quof]

She's bitching because your mother did her grown-ass-woman's laundry? 

[DeLurker]

On 6/28/2017 at 3:33 PM, DeLurker said:

OK - a bit of family history.  One of my brother's (brother 4) has rather strained family relationships with out parents and the other siblings.  His wife is no peach and has only exasperated things over the years.  they have one daughter who is now 29ish with 2 kids.  I'm the only one she has kept in touch with (besides her parents) the last few years.  She, or they, have been invited to various family gatherings, but have always declined.  Her Dad was visiting Florida a few months ago and she did not come up to visit my parents and other family when he was here (he did also stay with her and one of his old friends during the visit).

Anyway...brother 2 is having a get together at his house on July 8th.  His son and grandson will be in for a short visit and all the family, including my niece and her kids, have been invited up.  I had hoped my niece would go because she's an only child and has estranged herself.  In fact, my parents have not even met her little girl (2) despite stopping by to do exactly that when she was newborn (lame excuse given and wouldn't even allow her Dad to bring the baby out so they could see her).  The drama regarding the estrangement is all a bunch of manufactured drama and a life long diet of her Mom telling her the rest of us look down on them.

I emailed her to see if she was going up on the 8th, but she said her ex has her oldest that day and was hoping they all could come up on the next day to visit at my Mom's.  First and foremost, I'm more concerned about how much the outing on Saturday will take out of my Dad.  He's not doing so well and needs a lot of assistance on a daily basis in the house.  The outing to my brother's, including an hours drive each way, is not something he bounces back from like before.  Second, she's pissed off my Mom royally in the past - which my Mom will get over (being armed with a cute great grandchild or two helps), but the reason for not going to the original get together is sketchy.  Her ex would be agreeable to a change (we've known him for years) in the visitation.

If I ok the visit on Sunday, I'm thinking there is a reasonable chance that something will come up at the last minute so she'll be a no-show.  If I ask my Mom, she'll say yes but mostly for my sake. 

The other alternative is we find another convenient time and I go down to see her and the kids.

Quoting myself for the summer update...I responded to my niece's email saying I was sorry to hear they wouldn't be up, but saying I was hesitant to plan something for the Sunday since my Dad would probably be wiped out by Saturday.  I did not hear back from her after that nor did I get down to S Florida to see my friends since my Dad's health is prone to wide swings so he can go from needing minimal assistance at 9 AM to needing total assistance an hour later (he's had a shitload of major strokes in the past and has recovered substantially after each one, but the wires in the brain fritz out sometimes).  So Brother 3 (lives one house down from out parents) invited my best friend and his wife up to visit and that just kind of rolled into a party including a lot of the guys from the neighborhood we grew up with.  That was planned for the first weekend in August and he invited her. She said she was coming, grilled him about whether there would be appropriate food for her son (Type 1 diabetes) and then never showed up.

I've decided to prepay for monthly sessions with a massage therapist for Brother 3.  He helps my parents with whatever they need and makes them laugh (especially Mom).  He hurt his shoulder earlier this year, went a few times (and felt a big improvement), but he looked at the expense as an indulgence and unnecessary.

[walnutqueen]

On 8/14/2017 at 7:05 AM, DeLurker said:

Quoting myself for the summer update...I responded to my niece's email saying I was sorry to hear they wouldn't be up, but saying I was hesitant to plan something for the Sunday since my Dad would probably be wiped out by Saturday.  I did not hear back from her after that nor did I get down to S Florida to see my friends since my Dad's health is prone to wide swings so he can go from needing minimal assistance at 9 AM to needing total assistance an hour later (he's had a shitload of major strokes in the past and has recovered substantially after each one, but the wires in the brain fritz out sometimes).  So Brother 3 (lives one house down from out parents) invited my best friend and his wife up to visit and that just kind of rolled into a party including a lot of the guys from the neighborhood we grew up with.  That was planned for the first weekend in August and he invited her. She said she was coming, grilled him about whether there would be appropriate food for her son (Type 1 diabetes) and then never showed up.

I've decided to prepay for monthly sessions with a massage therapist for Brother 3.  He helps my parents with whatever they need and makes them laugh (especially Mom).  He hurt his shoulder earlier this year, went a few times (and felt a big improvement), but he looked at the expense as an indulgence and unnecessary.

Can you be my pretend relative? At least long enough to pay for a massage?  :-D

[DeLurker]

Actually reading other posts about how there is often the golden child who does nothing, but gets praised if they fart got me thinking.  I am not the golden child, but my parents don't really have one.  They look to each of us for our respective strengths/skills.  But Brother 3 lives the closest to them and he helps on practically a daily basis.  When I was there this summer he apologized (sincerely) to me for not helping out as much because he knew me and the kids were there.  I told him that was ludicrous, but he felt like he had taken advantage of the situation.

The brothers collectively have long standing sore spots with each other that go back to childhood so there are times when positive things the others do is discounted*.  It makes no sense whatsoever since we are all well passed childhood.  So when they do something that really is for the benefit of all of us, like helping our parents, I try to vocalize my appreciation or at least do something for them to let them know I see it.  Being the only girl and the youngest, I don't get ladled with much childhood stuff from them. 

* Example:  25 years ago,  my oldest brother and his wife started renting a house on St George Island in the panhandle of Florida for a week every couple of years.  They get a really big place each time and invite anyone who can come up to join them.  My parents always went and even if my other brothers couldn't come up, my parents and oldest brother would make sure their kids could come with them.  I started going with them about 13 years ago, but my kids and I were flying out from California to do it.  It has always been a great week - lots of beach time, the house usually has a pool, kayaking, riding bikes, family dinners and watching movies together at night.  They last few times they rented a house with an elevator to make it easier on my Dad and a nephew who is disabled.  Brother 4 always said he was never able to take the time off to go, but his daughter went up several times (when she was young).  He choose to spend his time off in other ways though.  But he and his wife have always grumbled about how Brother 1 was showing off that he made more money.  Nothing could be farther (further?) from the truth.

Edited August 16, 2017 by DeLurker

[Mindthinkr]

@DeLurker  My family has done a house rental thing like your family many times. Lots of great memories. You were so good to make that long drive and go to be with them this summer (with your child and animals). I applaud what a good daughter that you are. I am glad that you have a brother near your parents and could give him some mental time off. 

[DeLurker]

Awww...thanks.  I can't think of a way I would rather spend my time and I know the kids ability to do such things is not guaranteed much longer.  I just got word that one of my friend's father passed away on Saturday, their 67th wedding anniversary.  It wasn't a surprise to the family because her parents are in the same age bracket as mine and he has had serious health issues in the last few years and literally holding on by a thread for the past week.  I'm trying to think of what to write, but am having such a hard time processing the reality of death.

And I spent most of the summer thinking that my Dad would be checking out soon.  There were a few times when he was really doing poorly he asked me "When will the men be here?".  I asked what men and he said "the men from the crematorium who are coming to pick me up".  I did a Meryl Streep level of performing by not immediately breaking down into hysterical tears, but calmly telling him "it is too early for the men to come".

[BookWoman56]

Update on the situation with my son, DIL, and grandson who relocated from overseas the first part of the year, have been living with me since then, and have been driving me nuts for months now for various reasons: I just had the conversation with my son in which I pointed out the expenses I've been absorbing on behalf of him and my DIL for several months, and that I can no longer pay for those items. Even more challenging, I told him that I can't handle the ongoing arguing between him and his wife, plus the clutter, and they have two months to find their own place. I think that will motivate him to invest more energy into finding a job, even if it's not his dream job. But things had come to a head on Friday, when I began having serious waves of dizziness and so forth. Ended up in urgent care, and sure enough my blood pressure had spiked; I have hypertension but usually it stays under control with my meds. However, this time, based on some other symptoms and so forth, the urgent care doctor believes I probably had a mild neurological event, like a mini-stroke/TIA, and so I now have to go to a neurologist for an evaluation and to rule out anything worse.  The health issue made it a lot easier to have the discussion, because it was no longer "your clutter and arguing are driving me nuts" and instead "your constant arguing and other noise are making me seriously ill." I would have had the discussion today anyway, health issue or not, but it made the tone of the conversation a little different. My son took it reasonably well; my DIL is annoyed because she just unpacked a few more boxes and so that stuff will need to be repacked when they move out. I did retain all the moving boxes I bought when moving at the end of last month into the house, so they'll have plenty of boxes. In theory, at least. My DIL still has half a dozen huge boxes that she had shipped over that have never been unpacked and were in storage prior to our move. But overall I feel a huge amount of relief. I didn't get upset or defensive; I just went into the mode of these are the facts of the situation and this is what needs to happen, so the ball is now in your court.