S10.E20: Angel Heart

[Tara Ariano]

Castiel tries to help Claire Novak find her mom who has been missing for years. He feels guilty for what he did to the Novak family and wants to make amends by reuniting Claire with her mother.

[catrox14]

[Demented Daisy]

Another Dogma reference:

                             

METATRON

Because he listened to his friend - a Grigori by the name of Bartleby.

 

BETHANY

Grigori?

 

METATRON

One of the choirs of angels. They're called Watchers. Guess what they do?

 

 

 

"Behind Blue Eyes", now "Blue Eyes Crying in the Rain"?  Does not bode well for Castiel.  Sigh.

 

Everybody is gonna die, aren't they?

[kimrey]

Well, this wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. It doesn't make it good either, though.

I just really can't stand Claire and her teen angst. She feels so out of place on this show and I keep asking if this is really the best thing they could come up with so Cas actually has something to do? Then they left it wide open for her to return. I just don't care about her. Give her the spin off so I don't have to worry about seeing her on this show again.

Dean's "Cas saved the world" line had me scratching my head. Apparently a lot of people had the same reaction because Robbie Thompson had to explain on twitter that the line was supposed to be "helped" save the world. Which makes more sense.

I liked that Sam got some good moments in this one, talking about his mom and even going to college at 18. I always love a good call-back!

I feel like they really need to have Dean acting way more recklessly if they want us to believe he's really losing it. What he did to that guy in the bar was really not that bad.

Alright. Three more episodes. Charlie AGAIN next week. Meh.

Kinda funny, for anyone who doesn't know. They filmed the last couple episodes out of order and next week's episode literally finished filming last week. Like the last day of filming for it was last Tuesday night. It feels weird to have a promo for an episode they JUST finished.

Edited April 30, 2015 by kimrey

[Tippi Blevins]

Everybody is gonna die, aren't they?

 

Probably. But they'll be back.

 

Castiel said something like, "Dean snapped. He's getting worse." Oh, come on. Smashing a guy's face into a table is pretty tame by Winchester standards. Ronnie didn't even spit out any teeth. Now, if he'd smashed Ronnie's face and then spoiled all the episodes of Game of Thrones lined up on Ronnie's DVR, that would be unusually cruel.

[Ria]

Ho hum. I used to look forward to episodes when Cas was working with the brothers. That was so many seasons ago. Now he seems a shell of his former self, ineffectual and powerless. One episode he's being saved from another angel by a mortal Metatron, now he's being saved from an angel by a teenage girl. I truly think they are doing their best to make him boring and pointless so that they can kill him off without too much complaint. Although to be fair, none of the other characters in this episode were remotely interesting either. Lucky for all involved that the soul sucking angel legally bought property to store his human snacks and put it in the name he's been giving out to people.

[catrox14]

Was the actor that played Ronnie, Dean's neighbor in s6? I swear it was.

 

Cas is going to die.  I just don't see any other way around it.

 

I didn't have any problem with Dean saying 'Cas saved the world". I figured it was just Dean talking up Cas for Claire's sake and that the audience would know that Cas did save the world as part of Team Free Will. Dean wasn't going to say well Cas helpe me and Sam.. To me that's not something Dean would have said.  MV.

 

I laughed at Dean's indignant reaction to Claire not appreciating Caddyshack. That said I was bothered by the characterization of Dean not liking teenagers in general.  Dean had issues with Claire because she set up him to be murdered but Dean has proven to be great with kids, like Ben and the young hunter teenager...(I can't remember her name). 

 

I thought Dean was really edgy in this episode and he can't wait to go kill something BUT his beating up Ronnie was no worse than when Sam slammed the bartender's head on bar About a Boy.  So that was weird that Cas is all freaked out about it.

 

I didn't think the recast Amelia Novak was good at all which bums me out because the show usually does better with guest actors.

 

But overall I didn't hate this like I thought I would but it wasn't all that great. I do think it's tying Cas' loose ends for him to really truly be most sincerely dead by the end of the season.

[7kstar]

I expected worse, so I did find moments to enjoy.  I just wonder if the reason Dean had trouble was due to this teen vs. all teens.  I can see him thinking it's not good or healthy for me to be around Claire and just not able to trust her.

 

I liked Sam but once again he had to be saved although he did free himself for a bit.

 

Hopefully the next one is stronger. 

[Goldmoon]

Why didn't Cas's newly restored grace heal Amelia?  Was it something to do with the type of weapon the bad guy used or is Cas fading?  I really need for this to be the last we see of Claire.  We already knew that Jimmy is in heaven, we didn't need an episode for him to be reunited with his soul mate, Amelia.  I can't help but wonder if this image of Jimmy being so in love with a woman is meant as a small countermeasure to the destiel conundrum from the powers that be. And while I am thinking of Cas, I didn't need that pathetic image of him watching his not-daughter ride away in a taxi.  Where is the badass angel that we met six years ago?

 

All in all, better than I expected.  Damning with faint praise, it wasn't horrible.  Dreading Charlie next week.  Isn't she in two more?

[kimrey]

All in all, better than I expected.  Damning with faint praise, it wasn't horrible.  Dreading Charlie next week.  Isn't she in two more?

Nope. Felicia Day only filmed for next week's episode. 22 and 23 will be Charlie free, thankfully.

[Tippi Blevins]

I don't know why Castiel couldn't heal Amelia. Also, if Tamiel ate some of her soul, how did she get into Heaven seemingly intact? And why do Jimmy and Amelia get to hang out together in Heaven, but Bobby is seemingly alone? Also, why didn't Amelia remember that Jimmy used to have hot-ass spiky hair?

[catrox14]

My fanwank on why Cas didn't heal Amelia was that he's saving his juice for Dean.

[SueB]

Really liked:

- FINALLY a mention that they still get their money from credit card schemes

- Watchers (Gregori) NOT being rock transformers (gratuitous Noah movie reference)

- Sam's talk about his Mom.

- The way that BOTH Sam and Dean individually give Claire baby-hunter tips (credit cards, do your homework, letting her use a gun with pointers). Claire is 18 and she's not going down a normal path.  They didn't treat her like a baby (because they weren't at that age and neither is she) but they also weren't reckless IMO.

- Sending her off to Jodi's for a bit.  Maybe she'll take up hunting or maybe she'll let it go.  I just know the BEST DAMN ADVICE comes from Jodi Mills.  So... good call TFW.  You are in over your head with Claire.  Smart call sending her to the wisest person you know.

- Claire slipping out a 'Mommy' when she first grasped Amelia? Claire giving Cas' shoulder a kiss?  Well done Ms Newton. Well done.  You made me feel for Claire.

- Cas' "Somebody tell me she's going to be okay."  Yep, I cried.  Shut up.  I'm easily brought to tears and Misha sold it well.

- The meta joke of Dean and Claire playing mini-golf when Jensen and Kathryn (Claire) apparently are both superior golfers.  I wonder if those were really their shots or they "fixed it" with SFx.  Enquiring minds need to know.  I really enjoyed that scene in general. I was surprised Dean behaved at first by going to mini-golf and only got involved when he had new information to bring (dude was a Gregori).

 

Not so much

- The Gregori.  2-D villain. I felt nothing for him except "die already".

- Recasting of Amelia.  Actress was serviceable and I didn't really care all that much for the first one, but she just seemed too young.

- Sam getting a concussion. Again. At least he got himself free.

- Dean being unable to take out the Gregori. Come on.  He took out Cain for pity's sake.  He should have pwn'd the Watcher.  I think that was character servicing for Claire. I'm generally opposed to that.  

 

Finally, I've been okay-ish with Sam's hair but tonight? Tonight when his head was leaning forward in the chair?  I seriously wanted to stage a hair-tervention.  He needs to grow it longer. Like NOW.  

I don't know why Castiel couldn't heal Amelia. Also, if Tamiel ate some of her soul, how did she get into Heaven seemingly intact? And why do Jimmy and Amelia get to hang out together in Heaven, but Bobby is seemingly alone? Also, why didn't Amelia remember that Jimmy used to have hot-ass spiky hair?

Cas said he couldn't heal Amelia's wounds -- possibly because it was soul damage.  But they really needed to say he couldn't heal ANY damage from the Watcher blade to make it clear.  

 

My headcanon on the Amelia/Jimmy heaven: Hannah (who is apparently running things) cut Jimmy and Amelia some slack because of her past with Cas AND the sacrifices Jimmy made.  

[catrox14]

I loved that Dean actually got pissed off that Ronnie called Claire a "bitch".  I'm sure there will be howls of hypocrisy but I don't think that's the case because Dean has NEVER called any female human a bitch or whore or what have you that wasn't a witch, demon or monster or when he wasn't demon!Dean, not that I can recall.

[SueB]

I'm also pissed a bit because Robbie Thompson pulled a BL-level LOL!Canon moment.  Death told us specifically that souls could not be divided or shaved off.  But the episode sure seemed to imply that the dude was siphoning off the soul.  Maybe it was only the soul's power... yeah, I'll fanwank that.  He siphoned off power.  But Cas should have been able to heal that.  

[AwesomO4000]

- Sam getting a concussion. Again. At least he got himself free.

 

I thought it was weird though that there was this black box there that I remember (unless I missed something - which is possible, because hubby had me changing the channels during the commercials). But if not, then why did we miss Sam getting free? Didn't the Gregori guy have his angel sword pointed at him and then the next thing I know Sam is free and doesn't know where the Gregori went? Why? Sam couldn't have scared him away, and the chair shouldn't have been knocked over unless there was a fight, so... I'm confused.

 

Edited to add:

He siphoned off power.

 

That's the way that I interpreted it, because he was talking about how that's how it had been done for years. I thought that he was hinting at that that was how heaven actually worked as well... All those souls to draw power from, and they would just regenerate in time to provide more power later. And all that would fit with Castiel borrowing power from Bobby and using the soul power from the purgatory souls. But since boring power like Cas did from Bobby was dangerous, I just thought that the Gregori found a "safer" (for the angel) way to do it?

 

I need a rewatch I think.

Edited April 30, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

I couldn't understand what the Gregori was doing either.  It was very strange. One thing that bothered me is why didn't Cas just instinctively know that it was a Gregori lurking about. I mean I'm happy for smart!Dean but that made dumb!Cas.

 

I did tear up with Jimmy and Amelia's final goodbye. 

OMG. Osric Chau...you are the best.

 

Osric cosplays Cas shopping at Hot Topical.

 

[Zanne]

Charlie AGAIN next week. Meh.

 

 

I like Felicia Day, in general, but I am less fond of Charlie. If she opens, middles, or ends with, "[Fill in the blank], bitches!" I may stab something. Just...ugh. Stop doing that. That makes me hate her.

[miles2go]

Found the episode to be a little boring.  

 

But . . . the miniature golf game was kind of fun.  And they mentioned Jody Mills!  Not as good as seeing her again, of course, but still . . .

[Tippi Blevins]

Why didn't they just drive her to Jody themselves? Sure, it's a long way but they drive thousands of miles in mere hours anyway.

[rue721]

Ronnie was the most interesting character in the whole episode! I felt bad for him when the Gregori made him blind again, especially since he had this weird "aw shucks, fellas!" Little Rascals-esque thing going on when he was complaining about it.

 

I *want* to like Claire, but she's so Generic Sullen Teenager, that it's hard for me to get interested. Just a very flat, bland character.

 

We never get a chance to see how her head works, really. The goal of tracking down her missing mother was pretty generic, and then how she actually attempted to do it was so generic, too. It didn't give much insight into who Claire is as an individual that she just went to whatever motel her mom had mailed her a postcard from, and then asked around if anyone knew her. Seems like she doesn't really even have a hobby, though I guess her hand-eye coordination is A+ if she's always trying to hang out at pool halls and is also good at mini golf. *shrug.* So that's ~who Claire is~, I guess? The orphan with really good hand-eye coordination. (Btw, where was Claire's money coming from? That leather motorcycle jacket, the motel room, etc, was distracting me -- but maybe they explained that and I missed it?).

 

Idk what to think about the whole "should Claire be responsible for herself, now that she's an adult/18?" debate that Cas was having with Dean and then Sam.

 

Anyway, I don't think it was a bad episode per se, but it was a very boring, aimless one. The whole time, it felt like the story and characters were just treading water. I don't feel like anything's changed, there was no ~growth~ or anything really? It felt like filler. And I say that as someone who enjoys MotW episodes and stuff -- but this episode just felt really empty.

 

The ending song was good, though! The atmosphere it created was just right imo. I thought that sequences was the best thing about the whole episode. (But I like Willie Nelson in general, what can I say). The loud electric organ transitional music they had throughout the episode was killing me, though. Last episode weren't they suddenly back to using old school guitar riffs? Why did that only last for one episode? WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THE MUSIC SITUATION GUYS. They've had a lot of really good moments lately and I've really liked a lot of the songs they've featured, but then they just do random shit like bring back the electric organ riffs. The whole time when Dean was bouncing off the walls in the motel room with Claire, all I could think was WTF is that music.

Edited April 30, 2015 by rue721

[placate]

Claire>Charlie, all I have to say.

[Iguana]

This wasn't a bad episode, as such, and had some good moments and at least one interesting tertiary character. I liked Ronnie, the former faith healing/angels lackey, and he seemed to be a decent person. So of course he was killed. I enjoyed Dean and Sam with their little mentorship moments with Claire, and that they were smart enough to send her to Jody at the end.

But oh what this episode really did was drive home to me how much I really. Do. Not. Care. About Jimmy Novak and his family. The sullen teen angry at the world's bullshit is boring, the flimsy excuse from the mother that she was looking for Jimmy to justify abandoning her daughter failed to make me feel anything other then contempt for her, not withstanding her oh so conveniently timed save of Claire. And three strong experienced fighters getting inexplicably knocked on their asses just so that Claire can have her hero/revenge moment was too predictable and cliched. Bah.

[Jediknight]

I loved that Dean actually got pissed off that Ronnie called Claire a "bitch".  I'm sure there will be howls of hypocrisy but I don't think that's the case because Dean has NEVER called any female human a bitch or whore or what have you that wasn't a witch, demon or monster or when he wasn't demon!Dean, not that I can recall.

He did call Marie a bitch in Fan Fiction, of course she had just hurled the "jerk" bonding thing to him and responded out of habit, and afterwards realized he had just called a teen girl a bitch.

 

I've been trying to figure out who Claire reminds me of, and it finally dawned on me, Zoe from Eureka.  I give the edge to Zoe.

 

I love the show, but my Zod, I don't think I've ever been so bored by it as this season.  I've only got 2 episodes saved on my DVR, Fan Fiction and Hibbing 911.

[Commando Cody]

A lot of these shows do plan ahead.  I don't know if it was a coincidence or not, but it was Willie Nelson's birthday when this episode aired.

 

I thought Dean was going easy on the guy in the bar.   

 

I didn't need to see another Claire episode.  I thought she was stupid the first time, I didn't care if she had any closure. Supernatural reruns started over again.  I'm looking forward to seeing Cas's odd look and saying "I am not your father"... again.  

 

Sheriff Jodi Mills is starting to sound like the new Bobby Singer.  Is she going to teach her two wayward girls all about hunting?  

 

It was weird that they called Claire a taxi.  I was sort of expecting the driver to turn into a demon.  I have no idea why they wouldn't drive her there or have Cas bring her.  

 

Maybe I missed something, I thought Cas was back at full power.  He wasn't getting all angel-y and zipping after things.  He was running like a normal person. Didn't anyone hear the several gunshots when Claire was shooting the angel?  They were all right there.  

 

 

 

Charlie bugs the crap out of me.  Somebody must like her because for whatever reason, they keep bringing her back.  

[SueB]

Maybe I missed something, I thought Cas was back at full power.  He wasn't getting all angel-y and zipping after things.  He was running like a normal person. Didn't anyone hear the several gunshots when Claire was shooting the angel?  They were all right there.  

Wings are busted.

[mertensia]

This was just okay. Sam and Dean both had some nice scenes with Claire and frankly the idea of an angel keeping you alive for years to suck on your soul's energy is creepy.

But if Dean's losing it he should have....I don't know. Destroyed the bar. Not even notice he's slamming Ronnie's head into the table. Something.

Is it possible Sam and Dean were weakened by Tamiel's touching them and sucking energy from them?

[NoWillToResist]

Dean's "Cas saved the world" line had me scratching my head. Apparently a lot of people had the same reaction because Robbie Thompson had to explain on twitter that the line was supposed to be "helped" save the world. Which makes more sense.

 

I didn't have any problem with Dean saying 'Cas saved the world". I figured it was just Dean talking up Cas for Claire's sake and that the audience would know that Cas did save the world as part of Team Free Will.

 

Call me crazy, but...didn't Cas save the world without Dean and Sam? Wasn't that what S6 was about? Or is my memory really that bad? Sure he unleashed the Leviathan but the souls gave "Godstiel" the juice to kill Raphael who was about to bring about the apocalypse again. I thought that was why Cas lied to Sam and Dean; he knew that working with Crowley wouldn't be sanctioned by them (hypocrisy but anyway) but he saw no other way to save their asses and the asses of every other human on Earth. If Cas didn't defeat Raphael, Earth would have been no longer (or at least humankind). I just assumed that's what Dean was referring to. Sam and Dean weren't involved in that. Quite the opposite.

 

Did Robbie forget about all the times Cas has been taken to task for "betraying" the boys by working with Crowley...all to save their fucking lives and the lives of everyone else on the damned planet? But now, with his tweet, I guess we should all just pretend that S6 never happened?

Edited April 30, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[Primetimer]

Claire is back -- and as grumpy as ever, shocker -- but she's not alone.

Read the story

[raytch]

I don't know why Castiel couldn't heal Amelia. Also, if Tamiel ate some of her soul, how did she get into Heaven seemingly intact? And why do Jimmy and Amelia get to hang out together in Heaven, but Bobby is seemingly alone? Also, why didn't Amelia remember that Jimmy used to have hot-ass spiky hair?

I think Metatron said something about having a part of Castiel's grace, not all of it, but that it was supposed to do the job. So maybe Cass will never be back in full power (unless he finds the rest of it one day).

 

This said, I really enjoyed this.

I'm not crazy about Claire either, I often find myself rolling my eyes whenever she's in a scene.

The show hasn't been great at handling female characters (and that's putting mildly), but I appreciate the effort on this storyline.

Moreover, I like that the show has been on for so long that they can actually go back to such old plots and elaborate more on them. I think that's what I've enjoyed most this season.

 

I keep my expectations pretty low now. Obviously, we're never having the early head spinning seasons, but for a show that has to present new shocking things and expand its universe while staying true to the original characters, every week, I think for 10 years they've been doing just fine.

 

I don't know if Cass is headed for a death. What happens to angels when they die anyway? I don't know if it was explained in previous seasons, I haven't done a rewatch in forever. When monsters die, they go to purgatory, demons go to hell, and angels go to heaven I guess? If that's the case can't he just come back?

 

Anyway, I'm not sure how I would feel about his death. He hasn't had much to do but it's always fun to see him interacting with the boys.

 

The last montage was beautiful. Jimmy and his wife in heaven was touching as well. For a moment I was sure Amelia is not going to die but boy they're telling us that there's no happy ending for anyone in this world. Which means that they will all die a horrible death eventually.

I didn't think the recast Amelia Novak was good at all which bums me out because the show usually does better with guest actors.

 

I knew she looked familiar! She was Alice Pieszecki on The L Word.

Edited April 30, 2015 by raytch

[supposebly]

That was boring. I've been trying to come up with something more interesting to say about this episode but like the show, I failed.

[catrox14]

 

Call me crazy, but...didn't Cas save the world without Dean and Sam? Wasn't that what S6 was about? Or is my memory really that bad? Sure he unleashed the Leviathan but the souls gave "Godstiel" the juice to kill Raphael who was about to bring about the apocalypse again. I thought that was why Cas lied to Sam and Dean; he knew that working with Crowley wouldn't be sanctioned by them (hypocrisy but anyway) but he saw no other way to save their asses and the asses of every other human on Earth. If Cas didn't defeat Raphael, Earth would have been no longer (or at least humankind). I just assumed that's what Dean was referring to. Sam and Dean weren't involved in that. Quite the opposite.

 

 

Oh that's a good point about s6. I guess for me the betrayal and allying with Crowley and the unintended consequence of unleashing Leviathans on Earth overshadows that he did actually save the world.  I just assumed Dean meant Cas' role as part of TFW in s5 but wanted to keep the focus on Cas, which is a very Dean thing to do IMO.

 

As to Dean calling Marie a 'bitch'  in the "jerk" "bitch" exchange in Fan Fiction, that didn't even come to mind because that episode is IMO is a one off episode that sits in it's own little space. Even so Deans response was automatic and was played that Dean was like "oh shit" I said that to a teenage girl but not that he was an asshole for saying it. And even if he hadn't caught himself, I wouldn't have been bothered because of the context of the use of it.  It was being played for a laugh. I will say it did bug me that Marie even gave him a stinkeye about that because she knew that is the response she would get from it.

 

Anyway, topic:

 

I have to say upon rewatch I'm kind of annoyed with Cas and Sam here like I was in The Hunter Games.  It's either bad writing or intentional flip flopping about Dean for plot reasons.

 

I don't understand why Cas was all "Dean is losing it " because he pounded Ronnie's face  when Cas has done the same thing. Heck, Cas was torturer!Cas just a few episodes ago.  Dean was pretty much modus operandi with Ronnie.  Is Cas now unable to read Dean? Has his time away from Dean caused him to no longer understand Dean?  Or maybe the Mark affects how Cas perceives Dean? 

 

Could Cas be overreacting because he's been given the responsibility of keeping the Blade and he sees how worried Sam is so he's being hypervigilant?  I mean yes he's been distracted by Claire and getting his grace back but Claire is no longer his primary concern and he has his grace now, so maybe some quality bonding time with Dean will help him figure out what is going on.

 

Sam is really confusing me now. Dean was edgy and pent-up but IMO his aggression on Ronnie was not over the top at all and as I mentioned earlier was no worse than Sam's aggression earlier in the season which IMO was also not over the top given both situations. It's not like Sam apologized to the bartender for what he did to him in his desperation to find Dean. And let's not forget Sam's shenanigans with Lester. I don't want Sam to be a hypocrite here but it's starting to feel like that :( . And I can't decide if the writers want me to see that as one of Sam's flaws or what.

 

It seems on the surface anyway, that Dean is finding ways to control the bloodlust by taking out a nest of vamps yet Sam chews him out for doing so. Sam admonished Dean back in the Hunter Games that he might be the one that has to take control of it yet when he does, he looks at Dean like a " diseased killer puppy" (that will never not be funny).  And now he's using the vamp slaughter as a sign that Dean is getting worse. 

 

I totally buy that Sam would turn to dark magic to control something he has no control over but he's also not trusting Dean but Dean is doing exactly what Sam thought he should do, which is control the Mark on his own....I don't understand where the tipping point happened within Sam that he made this choice. I feel like there is a big piece missing and I don't know if that's a plot hole, or something we will learn later that is compelling him to use dark magic.

[missbonnie]

So, if Dean is seriously bad ass now, shouldn't he have been able to knock off the bad angel with little to no effort once he got ahold of a weapon? That just seemed odd to me seeing him getting is ass kicked like that.

[catrox14]

So, if Dean is seriously bad ass now, shouldn't he have been able to knock off the bad angel with little to no effort once he got ahold of a weapon? That just seemed odd to me seeing him getting is ass kicked like that.

I will fanwank that as Dean was holding back because reasons but the real answer is total character propping for Claire to get the kill. Really annoying.

[supposebly]

 

I don't understand why Cas was all "Dean is losing it " because he pounded Ronnie's face  when Cas has done the same thing. Heck, Cas was torturer!Cas just a few episodes ago.  Dean was pretty much modus operandi with Ronnie.

 

I think they put that line in to remind us about the plot that we are in the middle of. So, this episode doesn't completely look like it's in some alternate universe where Dean has his shit together. Because he did. He went minigolfing instead of running after them.

 

 

 

It seems on the surface anyway, that Dean is finding ways to control the bloodlust by taking out a nest of vamps yet Sam chews him out for doing so

 

I think Sam assumes that going on a killing spree makes the mark stronger. He thinks that going on a killing spree is a sign that the mark is taking over, so Sam is panicking. Also, he didn't chew him out for doing it but for doing it alone.

Edited April 30, 2015 by supposebly

[catrox14]

I think they put that line in to remind us about the plot that we are in the middle of. So, this episode doesn't completely look like it's in some alternate universe where Dean has his shit together. Because he did. He went minigolfing instead of running after them.

 

I think Sam assumes that going on a killing spree makes the mark stronger. He thinks that going on a killing spree is a sign that the mark is taking over, so Sam is panicking. Also, he didn't chew him out for doing it but for doing it alone.

 

Yes Sam was upset that he didn't wait for him but he also gave him the stinkeye when Dean said it took the edge off. I guess for me that whole scene came off as Sam being pissy that Dean was doing something on his own because he just doesn't really trust Dean at all despite having told him that he believes in him and he can fight this.

 

I don't understand why Sam would think Dean is getting stronger when  Dean said to Sam right then and there that  killing the vamps took the edge off. It's like the methadone of the Mark. Heck Dean even told Sam to lock him up in the dungeon again if they need to. And Dean wasn't being sarcastic about it either. He legitimately meant it. 

 

I get that they are going for "Sam cares about Dean and will do anything to save him", but Dean is doing exactly what Sam thought he was strong enough to do like 5 episodes ago which is find a way to live with it and control but now Sam doesn't believe? Or did Sam not believe it himself when he said it? He said it after Dean slaughtered Randy and The Rapists (worst band name ever).  If Sam just flat out doesn't believe or trust Dean anymore then isn't he putting everyone in danger by not locking Dean up in the dungeon again?  

 

And now Sam is taking Cas' word for Dean's stability based on something that was always what Dean and Sam would both do to get information.

 

I like to think Sam is possibly projecting all over the place about his own experiences with demon blood and that maybe he's afraid that Dean is just deluding himself. But what Sam doesn't understand is that Mark is something different than demon blood and IMO Dean would rather live with the Mark than become a demon again because there is no cure, only remission and relapse. If Sam has had that change of heart, I would really like him to have that conversation with Dean like NOW and tell him why he was going behind his back.

 

Dean looked pretty in control of himself and I don't think he is fooling himself personally. I think Dean knows exactly what he needs to do to keep in in check and if killing vamps and monsters satisfies the bloodlust at least a little bit, that's a good-ish thing...

Edited April 30, 2015 by catrox14

[Wynne88]

I agree with all those who are bewildered about why Dean bashing that guy's head against the table is supposed to be a worrying sign that the MoC is taking over.  It seemed like business as usual to me.  The writers just seem to have a really hard time writing Dean as being (or even starting to be) truly bad so they put in these little acts of aggression and then try to blow them up so they look more significant.  If they want me to believe that Dean is truly slipping, he's going to have to do a lot worse than this.  And for Claire to have to step in to save Dean, Sam and Castiel was kind of insulting to all three.  They don't seem to get that secondary characters can be strong, or tough, or whatever without always having to make the final kill themselves.  Just my view, of course.

[catrox14]

I've been speculating that Cole would be the spinoff character...but I'm now starting to think maybe it's going to be Claire. They left her with Cliff's Notes of how to hack, shoot and kill. 

 

But then they didn't drive her to Jody's to make sure she got there...and when the cabbie asked her if she was going home or leaving home she said she was just...going. She might not ever arrive at Jody's. Oh man, they might just kill her off for Cas' angst reasons.

Edited April 30, 2015 by catrox14

[rue721]

I think they probably want to bring Claire back now and again. Not for a spin-off, but how they bring back Charlie, Jody, and now maybe that other sheriff in Wisconsin. Now that I think of it, and Kate-the-werewolf and Cole, too, maybe? I don't think they're trying to spin Claire off, but I don't expect them to kill her, and I think we'll probably be seeing her again next season. 

 

Idk, maybe other viewers are interested in Claire's story. Teenage girls who could theoretically identify with her, I guess? Though I find her pretty hard to relate to, personally, since she's so bland.

 

No idea who they think will be paying that cab fare when she gets to Jody's. I just mention it because I prefer when the show is more grounded (which this episode wasn't, imo). Ronnie and Willie Nelson's song were the only parts of this episode that felt grounded to me, so it's what I liked best. YMMV.

 

It's really too bad imo that they felt they had to prop Claire by having her win a physical fight, instead of by making her personality more engaging or making her clever/wily.

 

Actually, speaking of "clever/wily" behavior:  it's interesting imo that the show brought up the credit card scams in this episode, and in the previous episode they showed Dean (creepily but intriguingly imo) bullshitting Susie to get into her home and tracking Sam using old school methods like rubbings, and in the episode before that, they showed him hustling pool. That's all stuff that I enjoy watching (because I like when the guys are kind of slimy-but-clever). But I wonder why the show is bringing up the more "unsavory" stuff that the Winchesters habitually do/have always done, *and* painting it in an especially unsavory light right now.

 

Earlier on in the series, stuff like the credit card scams, the bullshitting/lies to get into places the Winchesters shouldn't be, hustling pool, whatever, was painted more as just irreverent or adventurous, not as anything to really regret or feel bad about or that was genuinely slimy imo. I feel like the show's tone toward it has changed (in a self-aware way)?

[catrox14]

 

Earlier on in the series, stuff like the credit card scams, the bullshitting/lies to get into places the Winchesters shouldn't be, hustling pool, whatever, was painted more as just irreverent or adventurous, not as anything to really regret or feel bad about or that was genuinely slimy imo. I feel like the show's tone toward it has changed (in a self-aware way)?

 

This is a really good point. I can't figure out if it's being painted as being bad now or if it's just dangling the stuff that fans have always loved about the show just like they did with Fan Fiction.  Just to say...hey guys...we know we've gotten away from what made you love us and that made these guys interesting.  One of my main problems with demon!Dean is that he was just doing what Dean did only he was a total dick now and crosses boundaries he didn't before. 

 

But this is Jeremy Carver. And I watched his Being Human for a while, and this whole monsters vs humans thing was all Being Human was about. How do the monsters live with themselves and the world.  And this season has been characters paying the consequences of their actions...so I suspect that something bad is going to come of Claire knowing enough to be dangerous. 

 

I feel like this episode was setting up the boys and Cas to be totally at odds with each other by the seasons end:(. I just feel like all the nice talk about being better together than apart and Dean acknowledging Cas saved the world too...that some awful thing will tear them apart for next season. . I don't think we are going to get TFW. I think TFW is going to be torn asunder and it will be horrible

[AwesomO4000]

{snip} ...I get that they are going for "Sam cares about Dean and will do anything to save him", but Dean is doing exactly what Sam thought he was strong enough to do like 5 episodes ago which is find a way to live with it and control but now Sam doesn't believe? Or did Sam not believe it himself when he said it? He said it after Dean slaughtered Randy and The Rapists (worst band name ever).  If Sam just flat out doesn't believe or trust Dean anymore then isn't he putting everyone in danger by not locking Dean up in the dungeon again?  

 

And now Sam is taking Cas' word for Dean's stability based on something that was always what Dean and Sam would both do to get information.

 

{snip}... If Sam has had that change of heart, I would really like him to have that conversation with Dean like NOW and tell him why he was going behind his back.

 

Dean looked pretty in control of himself and I don't think he is fooling himself personally. I think Dean knows exactly what he needs to do to keep in in check and if killing vamps and monsters satisfies the bloodlust at least a little bit, that's a good-ish thing...

 

Cynical me thinks this is all for the reasons that I speculated earlier. Sam believing in Dean doesn't get Sam to the place of lying and getting reckless in order to save Dean. And getting Sam reckless appears to be what the current writers want, because then when everything goes to crap, it will be Sam's fault for not believing in Dean like he said he did.

 

And I agree, to me Dean does appear to be mostly in control here - it is Cas and Sam (who took Cas's word for it without getting enough details) who are getting all in a tizzy for no real reason and / or because they are either being over-protective, paranoid, or are just losing faith. Therefor when all goes to hell, it won't be Dean's fault, because he was dealing - as he did here by taking the edge off by killing the vamps - but Sam still was doing everything Dean told him not to do, explicitly and multiple times so that we, the viewers, would be sure to get the message. So that if Dean does finally go off the rails, it won't be his fault, but Sam's recklessness and his lack of faith and trust in Dean.

 

And if Sam had the conversation with Dean where he told Dean about his change of heart, then it might expose him to Dean figuring out what he is doing. Besides, then there would have to be a conversation explaining what changed Sam's mind, and I think that the writers might rather bleep blorp over that part, because it might not make sense. ::shrug:: And where would be the angst in that ::Le sigh::

 

As I said, cynical me thinks that the writers were going to find a way to make repercussions from getting the mark not really Dean's fault, and so this is it. Even better if words somewhere from someone hint that it may have been Dean's fault that Sam didn't believe in him or whatever, so the fans can then be indignant on Dean's behalf, because the story clearly showed otherwise. But pretty much the end result would be Sam getting thrown under the bus again (in my opinion)... which is what cynical me thinks is going to happen.

 

I had such high hopes here and was actually enjoying seeing Sam's point of view for once, but now once again there seems to be a disconnect or pieces missing on what's happening in Sam's brain, and I'm once again frustrated that it's mainly for plot necessity reasons.

 

I hope I am terribly terribly wrong.

[catrox14]

 

As I said, cynical me thinks that the writers were going to find a way to make repercussions from getting the mark not really Dean's fault, and so this is it. Even better if words somewhere from someone hint that it may have been Dean's fault that Sam didn't believe in him or whatever, so the fans can then be indignant on Dean's behalf, because the story clearly showed otherwise. But pretty much the end result would be Sam getting thrown under the bus again (in my opinion)... which is what cynical me thinks is going to happen.

 

I don't agree with the part about repercussions of Dean getting the mark not being his fault. Dean getting the Mark is exactly because of Dean allowing Gadreel to possess Sam. Kevin's death. Everything is because of the choice Dean made. I don't see that is ever going to be forgotten (although at times I wish it was!)

 

I'm not really sure how that gets erased because of something Sam does to try and fix it.  It would just more unintended consequences.  My problem is with Sam's rationale for lying which there isn't one other than plot reasons.  I've been thinking that maybe Sam has been under the influence of magic already  and maybe that is compelling him to keep it quiet. I would buy that rationale because otherwise it's Sam going off half-cocked...again. :(

[rue721]

This is a really good point. I can't figure out if it's being painted as being bad now or if it's just dangling the stuff that fans have always loved about the show just like they did with Fan Fiction.  Just to say...hey guys...we know we've gotten away from what made you love us and that made these guys interesting.  One of my main problems with demon!Dean is that he was just doing what Dean did only he was a total dick now and crosses boundaries he didn't before.

 

I think it *is* purposefully being painted as...maybe not *bad* per se, but unsavory. Lately, it seems like that kind of behavior makes other characters who are presented as reasonable/good people feel uncomfortable, which imo changes the tone somewhat.

 

Claire seemed kind of taken aback by Sam's explanation about the scams and then was dubious whether they were really hunting just because they want to help people. In the previous episode, Sam acted taken aback by Dean tracking him with the rubbing and Susie was getting the creeps from Dean while he was trying to ingratiate himself in order to get into her house. In the episode before that, right after Dean hustled those kids, he saw himself go black eyes in the bathroom mirror.*** The reaction of all the characters within the show makes me think that our/viewers' reaction is *also* supposed to be a little unsettled or a little taken aback. I think we're supposed to distrust the Winchesters a bit right now.

 

I also think that right now we're supposed to be empathizing more with the "victims" of the Winchesters' ostensibly victimless crimes. Claire and the Novaks, Susie (from the previous episode), even the kids who Dean was hustling and who Rowena described as "innocent." And I think we're supposed to be reconsidering whether their "crimes" are victimless after all.

 

Which I can sorta/kinda buy? I mean, running scams and manipulating people, let alone pounding someone's head into a bar or table, can be ways of victimizing people.

 

Ugh I am so sorry to bring up what is apparently my personal hobbyhorse, but I also wonder about how the show keeps trying to parallel Dean and Claire in these episodes, especially when it comes to relationships with their parents. That was the case in the previous episode with Claire, too. Like when Dean's story about John "rescuing" him from creepers in a bar encouraged Cas to rescue Claire from the creepers at Randy's house (and Randy!). And then this episode was all about Claire searching her missing parent who she thought had probably abandoned her (Amelia), and finding out that her parent (Jimmy) had sacrificed his life to save her/everyone/the world, and then having her parent (Amelia) die virtually right after she'd found her again. Sounds really similar imo to Dean searching for John after he went missing, and finding out that he'd sacrificed his life for his, and John dying so soon after Dean had found him again anyway.

 

Anyway, I think that the theme that the show is pushing right now is about the ripple effect of one person's choices. How each choice influences each subsequent choice (like how, if you make the choice to lie in order to run a scam on one person, how that might tempt you into deciding to lie in order to make things more convenient for yourself in another context). And also how each choice has consequences not just for yourself, but for all the people around you. That's why I think John is really important when it comes to that theme -- his choice to become a hunter obviously shaped the lives of his kids, and the consequences have just continued to ripple out from there. I think the show is attempting to "explore" what free will means (and even if it truly exists) this season. Which I appreciate, because I found the whole concept really simplistic in S4/5. But y'know. YMMV.

 

***Also, with regard to the pool hustling:  when the kid didn't want to bet his watch because of his sentimental attachment, I thought Dean was unusually cold/harsh about goading him into it. Dean didn't need the watch or the $300, he was just messing with the kids to mess with them, plus he knew they were really out of their league. Dean himself didn't have anything really on the line, and he knew the kids were going to lose. So, to me, it seemed like crossing a sort of (empathetic) line imo that he still remorselessly set the kid up to lose something genuinely important (rather than just some money that he could apparently get by without).

[supposebly]

 

Earlier on in the series, stuff like the credit card scams, the bullshitting/lies to get into places the Winchesters shouldn't be, hustling pool, whatever, was painted more as just irreverent or adventurous, not as anything to really regret or feel bad about or that was genuinely slimy imo. I feel like the show's tone toward it has changed (in a self-aware way)?

 

 

I also think that right now we're supposed to be empathizing more with the "victims" of the Winchesters' ostensibly victimless crimes. Claire and the Novaks, Susie (from the previous episode), even the kids who Dean was hustling and who Rowena described as "innocent." And I think we're supposed to be reconsidering whether their "crimes" are victimless after all.

 

I like that. I think that's what they attempted with the guy who became a serial killer in the end but then shrank away from by making him evil when he killed the dog.

I hope that's what this is. It is something I always found interesting to explore. That must because they kill the monster, they always leave mayhem and victims behind once they drive out of town.

My other thought is that it might just be that what looks irreverent and adventurous when someone is in his 20s looks sleazy when you are in your 30s. So, it might just be the visual that we see these two doing the same thing as grown men that makes it look....unsavory.

I hope it's on purpose and not just accidental.

[SueB]

I think it *is* purposefully being painted as...maybe not *bad* per se, but unsavory.

 

...

I think we're supposed to distrust the Winchesters a bit right now.

 

I also think that right now we're supposed to be empathizing more with the "victims" of the Winchesters' ostensibly victimless crimes. Claire and the Novaks, Susie (from the previous episode), even the kids who Dean was hustling and who Rowena described as "innocent." And I think we're supposed to be reconsidering whether their "crimes" are victimless after all.

...

 

Anyway, I think that the theme that the show is pushing right now is about the ripple effect of one person's choices. 

I think the answer is "yes" to all these things.  BOTH Sam and Dean are making me uncomfortable at times during these episodes.  In this episode, IA that Dean smashing the dude's face was "par" (sorry, couldn't resist) for the hunting course.  OTOH, I think Jensen did a good job of showing that Dean is definitely working with an edge.  As he described it last year it was 'low dosage steroids'.  This year the dosage seems up.  Not just the "want to smash something" sentiment.  It's his body language.  While he's always first in when they going into a room, he was ahead by a few steps in the hospital when they went back to see Claire.  He was pushing Cas into the room at the motel.  The way he data dumped about what they found....he was on the edge of bouncy.  And then he's off to "suit up" to check out the body.  Just..constant motion. Later he's unable to sit still in the motel room.  And yes, IMO, he enjoyed smashing Ronnie's face into the table.  So, it's not the specific "act" that I'm twigging on, it's the general edge I feel with Dean.  And I think Dean and Cas feel it too.  Perhaps Cas overreacted (cause he did) because Sam has become accustomed to this edgier Dean and Cas has not. So Dean seemed more "off".  IDK.  But I think they erred on the side of caution. I also think it's possible that they are like this because they feel like they MISSED the signs last time.  Both were used to deferring to Dean, even if he seemed a little off.  Then he went feral and slashed Gadreel.  This year he massacred 6 assholes on their watch.  They were ultimately scumbags so it's not like they took Dean to the police or anything. But the speed with which he went from 'okay to melee' was pretty quick.  I think they are on hyper-alert. 

 

What surprised me is that Dean acquiesced to being benched.  Like AwesomeO is fearing, his willingness to follow Sam's lead like this will make it a bigger deal when he finds out what Sam is doing. Consistent with what the WoL podcast said last week, I think one of Dean's coping mechanisms is to follow Sam's lead even if he disagrees with it.  It's kinda helping him to feel like he's got boundaries.  

 

Sam's coldness with Rowena, while a joy to watch, is also a little scary.  Although this week I thought he was pretty level headed and didn't do anything untoward.  His hyper vigilance is a reminder of where his head is at.  I thought his offering to show Claire how to run a credit card scam, while kinda gross**, was also practical.

 

 I think both he AND Dean were projecting all over Claire this week.  When Claire asked if Dean had had a drink before he was 21, I was thinking ...duh. I bet Dean had been shit-faced on occasion at 18. I'm glad he didn't give her the beer (because Cas WOULD object) and was kinda surprised he took her along and gave her a GUN.  OTOH, I think that's the empathy working.  If he was in Claire's position, he knows what he would want and he respected that.  I liked that part.  

 

** Maybe my age is showing, but I think we are all more aware of the damage identity theft causes than we were back in S1/S2.  

[catrox14]

Maybe I'm just a cold heartless person but these guys have saved people's lives and all of humanity time and time again so I don't give a shit if they pull credit card scams or pick locks or pose as FBI Agents to survive. They are criminals but they are not bad men and they are heroes. They do something that very few people will do to protect humanity and they have paid a heavy price throughout their lives for their sacrifices.  And the collateral damage their choices have left behind is nothing new.

 

What I don't like is that as I've mentioned before I've always had the impression that Carver doesn't actually like his two main characters.  I realize he is having to find plots for them but character assassination seems like the wrong way to go (even as I am demon!Dean trash).

 

He crapped all over Sam in s8 for NO reason that makes any sense at all no matter the fanwanking. I mean even Sam-haters couldn't understand it. Then he has Dean do this highly questionable and some would argue unforgiveable thing to save Sam's life...which leads to Dean becoming a demon.  It bothers me because this idea that their scams are "bad" or "evil" is pointless because IMO most of the audience long ago accepted that the boys financed their family business with shady stuff but saving humanity was worth it. And since no one has stepped up to finance their activities so do they just let humanity suffer because they are shady heroes?

 

So all this is just old territory for me. But it annoys me because it seems to be making Sam and Dean into assholes for saving people, hunting things. I personally don't want to see them painted into that corner because they have done more good than bad. And I haven't seen enough growth in either brother that warrants the complete deconstruction of both of them to rebuild them.  Yes I know we have another season to see what happens but it does bother me.

 

It's probably made worse for me because the juxtaposition of Crowley and his 'humanity" seems to imply that he might be better than either Sam or Dean or that Sam and Dean are no better than Crowley and that just pisses me off. I enjoy morally ambiguous characters but I don't want my villains to become better people than my heroes nor my heroes turned into villains...and that feels like what Carver has been doing with the boys.

 

I may or may not have strong opinions about this. LOL

Edited April 30, 2015 by catrox14

[supposebly]

 

Maybe I'm just a cold heartless person but these guys have saved people's lives and all of humanity time and time again so I don't give a shit if they pull credit card scams or pick locks or pose as FBI Agents to survive. They are criminals but they are not bad men and they are heroes.

Heh. I don't think anyone is debating that. Sam simply stating, we help people I think speaks to a more balanced view. I do think it won't hurt to address the collateral damage that ensues. It's not the Winchester's fault, but it is something that happens. Susie was just the latest in a long line of victims that are partially due to the Winchesters screwing up, not being there fast enough, or getting it wrong the first time. Which is kind of a thing with them anyway.

I don't think it's their fault or even their responsibility and most of these people might have died anyway if the Winchesters hadn't come to the rescue or some other hunter had bumbled his/her way into a situation.

They do save people but they also do a lot of damage in the process. I don't mind that that gets addressed and I don't think it takes away from the sacrifices that they made in the name of hunting.

Season 8, in my mind doesn't exist when it comes to Sam, but Dean's descent seems very in character and it won't hurt to show that his issues do damage. Simlarly to Sam's descent in season 4.

 

 

It's probably made worse for me because the juxtaposition of Crowley and his 'humanity" seems to imply that he might be better than either Sam or Dean or that Sam and Dean are no better than Crowley and that just pisses me off.

This I can't really see. I think them being so buddy-buddy with him only shows that they have crossed a few lines too often in their lives, sometimes out of necessity, sometimes out of despair, and often, because the alternative might have been worse.

I don't see anything actually human about Crowley, what he's done throughout the show makes him no more human. Just ask Kevin or his mom. Or maybe Sarah or the guy from Wendigo who got killed in season 8. Another example of letting Crowley live getting other people killed.

 

The Winchesters are genuinely scary people and I don't have a problem with shining a light on the fact that if you tread in the mud for very long, you get some on you.

 

ETA: decent is not descent. Sorry!

Edited April 30, 2015 by supposebly

[catrox14]

I guess to me this is not a new thing though with the Winchesters. Collateral damage has been examined since the beginning of the show. We have seen people be hurt by their actions but the difference now is that the show seems to want me to turn against them in some way. And as much as it would be great to ignore what Sam did in s8, I would like to ignore what Dean did in s9 but it did happen. 

 

As far as Crowley I do think the show wants us to sympathize with him now. They want us to see that he has a rotten mother and that maybe he's just not that bad. Just misunderstood. I dunno, I'm probably not explaining myself and I should take to the all seasons thread.  It just rubs me the wrong way.

[catrox14]

I was rewatching the scene with Dean in the bar... and I realize that he only slammed Ronnie's head on the bar AFTER Ronnie called Claire a bitch.

So is the show really trying to tell me that Cas thinks that is a sign of Dean going off the rails? As much shit as Robbie is getting over the Cas saved the world line, why isn't anyone getting after him about that particular scene.

I dunno.

[supposebly]

 

We have seen people be hurt by their actions but the difference now is that the show seems to want me to turn against them in some way. And as much as it would be great to ignore what Sam did in s8, I would like to ignore what Dean did in s9 but it did happen.

Oh I think Dean's story right now makes sense in terms of his character, similarly to Sam's in season 4 (well, most of it) but to me Sam in season 8 made no sense. That wasn't him. Even soulless Sam was more "Sam" than this bitchy abomination. Sometimes I imagine Amelia possessed him during that time.

 

 

They want us to see that he has a rotten mother and that maybe he's just not that bad. Just misunderstood.

 

Sorry, I must emphatically disagree. He is a demon and compared to what we know about Rowena, he wins the evil-bastard-award hands-down in my book. All her presence did was made him look boring and foolish but not misunderstood. I think DemonDean's halfassed evilness in combination with his buddy-comedy with Crowley did more damage in that regard and made Crowley look way too sympathetic. I almost felt sorry for him when DemonDean pushed him to the floor.

 

Back to this episode: I've seen speculation that Cas is on his way out. Right now, I wouldn't even mind so much. Of course if Dean kills him, that might get us even more guilt-tripping, and I'm kind of not a fan of that. I do miss awesome fearsome Castiel from season 4. He has his grace back, he should have been able to smite that creepy gregorian in a second.

 

I think I should take my thoughts on the Winchesters' past critics to the All Episodes Talk.