S01.E13: The Watch

[Athena]

A Redcoat deserter from Jamie's past returns; Jenny goes into labor; Jamie and Ian join the Watch.

 

Reminder: There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into a potential spoiler you should leave now. Book Talk assumes you have read all the books to date. Any information from unpublished books, such as preview chapters should be in spoiler tags.

[WatchrTina]

My reaction at the end:  Well F*&k!

 

My reaction when the sword came through Horrock's chest:  Please let it be Murtagh!   Please let it be Murtagh!  Oh.  Ian.  Well that's pretty good too.  Though how a man with a peg leg can be that stealthy I don't quite understand.

 

My favorite moment -- when Jamie said "I'm a wanted man."  I just loved the way his demeanor changed as if to say "I'm the Laird and I've had enough of this bullish*t!"

 

Overall -- my heart was in my throat for most of the episode.  Which is actually a compliment since, as a reader, I'm hard to surprise.

Edited May 3, 2015 by WatchrTina

[GHScorpiosRule]

Really enjoyed this episode, but I'm not going to lie--my heart was pounding at the end, hearing Ian's pants and groans, and learning Jamie wasn't the one carrying him.
 
And what was wrong with Brahn and Luchais? (that's how my cc had the names spelled) that they didn't get up and start running toward the men when they barked?
 
And oh that last scene between Jamie and Claire...the heart....the chills....I'm...no words...
 
I totally knew that Jamie wouldn't pay the blackmail, even if he did pay the blackmail; because he knew Horrocks would ask for more. What did surprise me was Ian running him through. But good.
 
I just don't know if I'm up to the last three episodes. I hope they don't draw out Jamie's torture and rape.
 

My favorite moment -- when Jamie said "I've a price on my head." I just loved the way his demeanor changed as if to say "I'm the Laird and I've had enough of this bullish*t!"

Absolutely. I'm glad he owned up to who he was, because well, who knows who else might show up and reveal who he is? But I loved his demeanor throughout.

Edited May 3, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[absnow54]

My reaction when the sword came through Horrock's chest:  Please let it be Murtagh!   Please let it be Murtagh!  Oh.  Ian.  Well that's pretty good too.  Though how a man with a peg leg can be that stealthy I don't quite understand.

I was thinking the same thing and had to keep reminding myself that Duncan Lacroix wasn't in the credits.

 

I really liked this episode, I thought it was probably the best character study of Jamie yet. I do feel like Claire is getting lost in the shuffle, but I felt the same way during this portion of the book. Every scene I found myself begging for a voice over from her, until she finally did have a voice over in the end and it was completely pointless.

[sony-b]

The bracelets are boar tusks, I think "tushes" is the word from the books. We do find out who they were from later on, it's not a big reveal, but it's sweet. Same with the pearls - they were a gift from another admirer.

[WatchrTina]

 

I thought it was probably the best character study of Jamie yet.

I totally agree.  And I think we saw some of the strongest acting from Sam yet.  This episode was a gift to him -- it gave him so much to do.  

• Courage in the face of a gun?  Check.  
• Confusion over the state of affairs with the Watch?  Check.
• Swashbuckling fight scene?  Check.  
• Male bonding by telling war-stories with fellow former soldiers?  Check.
• Achingly heartbreaking scene when Claire tells him she can't have children?  Check.  
• Gentle touch helping Ian get over the shock of killing a man after so long.  Check  
• Complete demeanor change when he reveals himself to the head of the watch?  Check.  
• Touching goodbye scene with Claire, complete with slo-mo walk into darkness (hey Ron, foreshadow much?) Check.
• More male bonding on the road and a glimpse of what his life might have been without Claire? Check
• Clever Jamie figuring out the ambush before anyone else?  Check

 

No wonder Sam tweeted that this was his favorite episode.

 

One question though -- when the head of the watch pressures Jamie into joining the raiding party did he say that Jamie would have to ride with them "Or dig seven graves, including your own."  Seven graves for who?  Jamie, Ian, their wives, child and two servants?  Did he really just threaten to kill the whole family if Jamie didn't ride with him?  Because if he did I'd have a hard time accepting the male-bonding that followed.  Or did he mean that the seven men of the watch who were there would compel Jamie to ride with them or die in the effort?  Either way -- it was a pretty damned forceful threat so the male bonding afterward doesn't ring quite true for me.

Edited May 3, 2015 by WatchrTina

[Dust Bunny]

Eh, it was ok. I loved the Jenny & Claire scenes. I felt like Ian was a bit out of character with all the Watch plot. I missed the scene of Ian thinking Jenny had died in childbirth. 

 

I would have preferred it to be like the book when it's Jamie who brings up Claire not being able to (as far as she/they know) have children. This version had me feeling really bad for Claire. 

 

And I would think the redcoats would have followed Horrocks to Jamie, not allowed Horrocks to bring Jamie to him - especially since Horrocks is a deserter and would have been otherwise shot. But, plot.

 

I don't know if it was the actor's choice at all, but I never bought MacQuarrie as a good guy. I kept waiting for him to betray Jamie from start to end. 

 

This basically felt like a bridge episode to me. It was fine, but nothing special. 

Edited May 3, 2015 by Dust Bunny

[SpiritSong]

My reaction at the end:  Well F*&k!

 

My reaction when the sword came through Horrock's chest:  Please let it be Murtagh!   Please let it be Murtagh!  Oh.  Ian.  Well that's pretty good too.  Though how a man with a peg leg can be that stealthy I don't quite understand.

 

Those were my exact thoughts! I really miss Murtagh. This episode proves, once again, that Jamie really does need a keeper.

I thoroughly enjoyed Jenny and Claire getting to truly know one another.

[bluebonnet]

I really liked this episode.  I had been thinking that I was going to have to give up on the show because the changes with the rocks seemed to have this domino effect that made every episode annoying and bad, imo at least.  This episode was amazing.  I wanted to see some of my favorite book scenes (like Ian drunk as a skunk thinking Jenny died in childbirth), but I like what they did here.  Now that we're going into a long break from Jenny and Ian, this one left us with a lasting impression of who these characters are.  I'm going to miss them, and I think non book readers will miss them too.

 

Best scene was Ian killing Horrocks.  It was ridiculous that he could sneak up on him like that (though maybe he was already hidden), but the ptsd Ian exhibited was palpable.  I could feel his terror and pain at having killed someone and the emotions between Jamie and Ian were just beautiful.  

 

Did anyone else think Horrocks would have made a good Stephen Bonnet?  When he was talking, before being run through, I realized he was exactly as I imagined Bonnet to be, mannerisms and all.  When Horrocks mentioned going off to the colonies, I was almost sure he would become the Stephen Bonnet character.  Then Ian ran him through, so that theory was dead (har!).  

 

I miss Murtagh.  He needs to come back.  He might be the only thing to get me through the final three episodes.  

[MedievalGirl]

I loved the childbirth stuff. Best labor I've ever seen on TV. 

Three years ago this very day I gave birth to my little William James after laboring on my hands and knees too. Sorry to overshare. It just tickled me to see that today.

[Dust Bunny]

 

Did anyone else think Horrocks would have made a good Stephen Bonnet?  When he was talking, before being run through, I realized he was exactly as I imagined Bonnet to be, mannerisms and all.  When Horrocks mentioned going off to the colonies, I was almost sure he would become the Stephen Bonnet character.  Then Ian ran him through, so that theory was dead (har!).

 

100%! Everything about Horrocks screamed Bonnet to me, and I thought the same thing about the colonies. That actor did a great job. 

[justmehere]

Loved the scene between Jamie and Ian after Ian kills Horrocks.

 

Loved the scene between Jamie and Claire when she tells him she doesn't think she can have children. Especially, Jamie being unable to help himself being a bit jealous of Frank; him saying it's maybe for the best in order to comfort Claire; but then seeing that, of course, it pained him.

 

The labor/birth scene was great. So much better than most of what's portrayed. I'm loving Laura Donnelly. I also loved the backlighting showing her silhouette and pregnant belly; so beautiful.

 

I miss Murtagh too.

[Pestilentia]

 

I really miss Murtagh.

Me, too- desperately.

And Dougal and Rupert and Angus and all the MacKenzies.

 

I found both this and the previous episode to be just OK. It's probably me being overwhelmed with real life commitments and this being my one hour a week for me, but the spark of the first half of the season has been lost somehow. I very much enjoy watching the actors, I still love the location work, but something about the story itself is lacking for me.

As I said it's likely just exhaustion but the previews for next week with the old gang back again sure made me happy.

[Petunia846]

Add me to the list of people shouting, "Please be Murtagh! Please be Murtagh!" at the TV. I really don't understand why he's not here. He has no connection/loyalty to the Leoch people other than Jamie, and Jamie's not there, so where is he? If he's just chillin' with them next week when Claire finds them, he'd better have a good explanation.

 

This is the first major deviation from the book that I feel totally good about. It didn't take anything from the book canon, it actually made a part of the book that was kind of weak feel stronger narratively. I was surprised by how many key book lines they managed to work in, and even the little snake and the bracelets made appearances. I was happily surprised.

 

One part I was really not expecting to hear was Jenny's speech about being pregnant. In the book I always find it super creepy and kind of disgusting, but Laura Donnelly did a great job with it. Of course I think it helped that she was only telling Claire, not also Ian and her brother Jamie (while Jamie rubbed her feet!), but still. The delivery of the speech was great.

 

I caught a little slow motion there when Jamie walked away from Claire, so obviously now everyone should know that nothing good is going to happen next. I liked when they did that with Frank in the first episode, but I'm not sure how I feel about it here. I think it wasn't really necessary, and it also wasn't really doing well. It was so quick. If they really wanted to make that statement, they should have gone full out like they did with Frank.

[WatchrTina]

That's funny, I don't recall any slow-motion effects in the first episode (other than the dancing by the stones).  Did they use slo-mo when Claire & Frank kissed goodbye?  At any rate, I rather suspect that Jamie turning and walking into darkness was the effect they were going for in the goodbye scene but in editing they decided they wanted the beat of Claire looking after him to last longer so they slowed down the last few frames of the scene.  It's hard to notice because Claire is standing still and Jamie in stepping into darkness.  I love the way that was shot.

 

Can I just give a shout out to hair & make-up for this episode?  I complained about Jamie's looks in the witch trail/stones episode.  He looked, for lack of a better word, "pretty" in that episode.  In this episode he is back to looking smoking hot -- much more in line with JAMMF, the "king of men" who lives in my head.  I could barely take my eyes off his face when he was on camera.  I will, however, give proper credit where it is due by saying that an actor's face is his main tool and Sam used his brilliantly in this episode.

 

And as long as I'm giving credit where credit is due, all props to Cait for her performance in the scene where Claire admits she may not be able to have children.  Her face just breaks my heart.

Edited May 3, 2015 by WatchrTina

[AD55]

First, count me amongst those who miss Murtagh. I find Duncan Lecroix incredibly sexy. That voice!

 

I loved this episode. It may be my favorite thus far, though I also really like The Gathering. As I think about it, the episodes have something in common. Both have moments of heightened stress and suspense, but what I love about both is how character-driven they are.

 

I agree with all of WatchrTina's "checks" -- Sam got to show his range. As someone said, I can see why this is his favorite episode. He's wonderful in every scene.

 

I have liked Laura Donnelly ever since I saw her in an episode of Merlin. Usually, I roll my eyes at "birthing" scenes. They're so over the top. She got it just right. I thought Cait was terrific, too. One of my favorite moments is when Jenny says, "damn you, Claire," and Claire responds in a bland nursey voice, "yes, damn me." I come from a family of nurses and no one does matter-of-fact compassion better than a good nurse. I love when Cait gets to interact with other women.

 

Petunia846 is so right about Book Jenny's description of pregnancy. I cringed when Laura Donnelly launched into it, but it was fine. I agree that the book setting made it creepier. Plus, I always pictured Jenny acting superior and smug during that icky line about men wanting to crawl back inside their mothers or whatever. Laura played that with an air of wonderment and love that I thought was really effective. I also think that scene went on way too long in the book.

 

Other than the parting scene, the episode was free of sexy moments between Jamie and Claire and yet they seemed closer to me -- like a real married couple -- than they have in past episodes.

 

Also loved the scene when Ian kills Horrocks. The bond between the men and their understanding of and respect for each other's differences were palpable. Both actors were amazing.

 

Can't wait to see Claire and Jenny's road trip.

 

A question about the missing Murtagh. When does he show up in the book? I don't recall him being at Lollybroch. Does he arrive with a U-Haul soon after Jamie and Claire's return? If so, I can understand why he's not in the episode. He surely would have accompanied Jamie and Ian on the raid, which would have required Moore et al to explain how he and Ian both got away. Murtagh would never have left Jamie.

 

ETA. I just read a comment in the no book thread from someone who pointed out that the secondary characters are much more nuanced than the principals even though they have many fewer scenes. Claire, esp. book Claire, is obviously a Mary Sue character and Jamie is the stereotypical romance novel hero. In the past two episodes, however, I think the writers have succeeded in making them more complex. Jamie especially seems more flawed, which is a good thing.

 

And finally, an episode with only one tiny bit of voiceover. I hope this trend continues. With one or two exceptions I find them irritating and unnecessary. Did we really need internal dialogue Claire telling us she is worried that Jamie won't return? Are the viewers such dolts that her staring down the road and talking to Jenny about it weren't enough?

Edited May 3, 2015 by AD55

[WatchrTina]

A question about the missing Murtagh. When does he show up in the book? I don't recall him being at Lollybroch. Does he arrive with a U-Haul soon after Jamie and Claire's return? If so, I can understand why he's not in the episode. He surely would have accompanied Jamie and Ian on the raid, which would have required Moore et al to explain how he and Ian both got away. Murtagh would never have left Jamie.

Murtagh shows up on Quarter Day, just in time to give Claire back Ellen's pearls so that she looks appropriately Lady-of-the-Manor. Then he goes off again, presumably to visit his own family (he IS a Fraser). But he hears about Jamie's having been taken (Highland telegraph) and follows Claire & Jenny, turning up just in time when Jenny is desperate to get back to her new-born.

And you are right -- he could not have been at Lallybroch for this episode because he definitely would have ridden with Jamie and the Watch the same way Ian did. I just hope he turns up on his own, like he does in the book, and then he and Claire hunt for Jamie together before being found by Dougal and his men. Because as someone up thread already said, it makes NO sense for Murtagh to be chillin' with the MacKenzie clan.

You know I have mixed feelings about Horrock's role here. On the one hand I like that Jamie was not betrayed by one of his own, as was done in the book (Rabbie McNabb's father) because the show does not not have the time to develop why that betrayal happened, nor to show the deadly consequences of that betrayal (death by fire), which was so chillingly portrayed in the book. But on the other hand, the notion of an Irish deserter from the British army knowing ANYTHING about the rent-collecting activities of Highland clans -- information that the Watch does not already know -- just beggars belief. I shrug and let it go because I was happy to see the plot move foreword quickly, I like the actor who plays Horrocks (dreamy eyes) and I was as happy to see that sword protrude through his chest as I was to see the nearly identical scene in the orc tower in The Return of the King. Yes, Ian is our Samwise Gamgee.

Edited May 5, 2015 by WatchrTina

[Petunia846]

That's funny, I don't recall any slow-motion effects in the first episode (other than the dancing by the stones).  Did they use slo-mo when Claire & Frank kissed goodbye? 

Yeah, Claire's sitting in the chair at their room and Frank kisses her good-bye and she reaches out to grab his tie for another kiss, then walks away. The shot stays on Claire actually, but the light is intense and there are little dust motes floating in the air. It's very obvious that this is the last time they're going to see each other. That was the feeling that sort of came across in this episode, but it seemed less intentional/obvious.

[tcay]

I wish the show had not gotten rid of the midwife. I always liked that Claire didn't know how to deliver a baby--it was very realistic given her experience, and it made her less perfect. And it was frankly refreshing in the book to not have the midwife called away at the last second in order to raise the stakes. It would've been fun to have Claire bossed around by some ancient midwife, and the conversations between Jenny and Claire could have happened still. But that was my only quibble.

 

Now book changes I did like: it's good that Horrocks betrayed Jamie, and not McNab. The McNab thing would feel like yet another situation Claire meddled in (she was the one that witnessed the boy's beating, after all, and insisted Jamie do something about it), with disastrous consequences. Horrocks is a mess of Jamie's own making. The Stephen Bonnet parallels are definitely there: both men should've been killed outright but spared because Jamie has an imperfect moral code.

[WatchrTina]

 

Horrocks is a mess of Jamie's own making. The Stephen Bonnet parallels are definitely there: both men should've been killed outright but spared because Jamie has an imperfect moral code.

Imperfect moral code?  Hmmmm.  A certain famous quote springs to mind.

 

It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. And some that died deserve life. Can you give it to them Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. -- Gandalf, The Fellowship of the Rings

Jamie let's Bonnet go because he was a smuggler and Jamie was also a smuggler so who was he to judge?  Did he regret it?  A thousand times yes.  But he wouldn't be the same man if he were "eager to deal out death in judgement."

 

Are you saying Jamie should have killed Horrocks when he took Jamie's money and then gave him a name (Jack Randall) that was no use to him?  I presume that is the truth -- that Black Jack killed the man that Jamie is accused of killing.  Would it have been right for Jamie to kill him because the truth he bought ended up being unhelpful?  I think not.  And I applaud the writers for putting the words in Horrocks mouth that we needed to hear -- Horrocks threatening Jamie's kin. That's all Ian needed to hear to act.  "You threaten my wife, my son, you're done."  If Horrocks had only threatened Jamie, I still think Ian would have done the deed but he was standing on higher moral ground when he did it because Horrocks threatened the whole family.

[tcay]

Dougal wanted to kill Horrocks when they got the information and Jamie stopped him. On the surface, yes, that would've prevented this outcome. 

 

Stephen Bonnet hardened Jamie to the point where Jamie did start dealing out death: he murdered Claire's rapist long after the fact, and let's not forget the raid on the bandits too. Jamie all but vowed never to make that mistake again. 

[chocolatetruffle]

Overall this episode’s primary purpose was to get us from point A to point B (point B being Jamie’s capture) and it accomplished it .  It just left me wanting “more” somehow.

 

The scene at the table where he admits to killing Horrocks was brilliant.  Kudos to Sam because the IDGAF look on his face was priceless (while biting a biscuit, HEEEE!).  You could tell that Jamie was just done.  He took a calculated risk based on what he knew of MacQ’s character and it worked brilliantly, saving Ian in the process.  Of course that look made it quite clear that if MacQ didn’t play ball, JAMMF would have snapped his neck in about two seconds. Whenever Jamie brings JAMMF to the party it always makes me sit up squee like a 12-year-old. 

 

Hi, little Rabbie, great to see you and great to see wee Jamie again too (loved it when Mrs. Crook grabbed him and ran him back in the house)!

 

The Jenny and Claire scenes were beautifully done.  Both actresses brought their A-game to those scenes and I truly believed the strong bond that developed between Jenny and Claire.  The “what’s it like to be pregnant” scene was emotionally and visually breathtaking.  And the “guarding the chief’s weaker side” story will be revisited again next season, I’m sure, and it will be heartbreaking.  Actually, I was happy that they used lots of stuff from the book in this epi.

 

The scenes between Jamie and Ian were wonderful as well, and served to reveal the strong bond between the two of them.  I especially loved the killing of Horrocks because it showed Ian’s psyche was still damaged from the war and his injury (at the time I thought Ian?  YES, IAN!!).  Jenny sending him on his way with Jaime showed how much she understands that Ian still needs reassurance that he’s a whole, capable man and not “less than” because he only has one leg.

 

The other major highlight for me was the Claire reveal about her infertility fears - so well done by both actors and so moving.  Cait did a great job throughout the episode (as well as in the Changeling scene)  showing how much Claire wants a child.  But the moment that brought me to tears was at the end, after Claire leaves, and Jamie collapses on the chest.  We see how devastated he is and how much strength it really took to reassure Claire when his own heart was breaking.  Sam’s ability to show Jamie’s vulnerability is awesome.

 

Of course, the end left me with a knot in my stomach because of what’s coming next.  Nevertheless, as much as I enjoyed certain moments in the episode, I felt oddly disconnected from the story overall.  The Watch were clearly red shirts and posed no real threat.  Horrocks was dead as soon as he mentioned blackmail.  Also, he was definitely not setting Jamie up – he had no idea Jamie would be there when he got to Lallybroch and he was planning on being at the raid himself (probably to get his payment for setting up the Watch).   Nope he was just a greedy little halfwit who threatened Jamie & Ian's family and deserved a sword thru the chest.

 

But most problematic for me was the fact that Jenny & Claire were isolated in their story and Ian & Jamie were isolated in theirs.  There wasn’t enough crossover for me. I wanted more concern from Ian and Jamie about the impending birth.  Jenny’s instruction not to tell Ian aside, both men should be aware that 3 days of labor is not normal (especially Jamie since he knows his mother died in childbirth).  Jenny sending Ian away would have been more powerful if he was fully aware that she might not make it.  I agree that there should also have been some suspicion about Horrocks and his info, and would have liked to see a discussion between Jamie and Claire about that.  Claire and Jamie’s parting would have been more powerful if she were aware of how many things could possibly go wrong for Jamie.  

Edited May 3, 2015 by chocolatetruffle

[CalamityBoPeep]

 

I found both this and the previous episode to be just OK. It's probably me being overwhelmed with real life commitments and this being my one hour a week for me, but the spark of the first half of the season has been lost somehow. I very much enjoy watching the actors, I still love the location work, but something about the story itself is lacking for me.

 

I've been feeling the same way, and I'm not really feeling overwhelmed with real life commitments at the moment, so I do think there might be something lacking.  It's hard to put a finger on what it is though.  I mean, I loved the birth scene, especially the "Damn you, Claire"... "Yes, yes, damn me." bit.  So Jenny and Claire right there.  And the Jamie/Ian stuff was beautiful too.  The Jamie characterization, the goodbye.  It was all there, and really well done.

 

It might just be that I have this horrible sense that we're in front of an oncoming train, and I'm becoming more and more convinced that Ron, et al, do not plan to show us, as viewers, any mercy at all.  Every episode we get closer to the horrible things to come, the worse I feel about the show, even though each episode is reasonably good, on its own merits.  I feel like they're going to revel in what they can get away with showing us on tv, and it's going to leave a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.  I skip Jamie's recounting of what happened, every time I re-read.  I just can't, with it.  But I feel like the show is going to be so proud of itself for "going there" and showing us all of it.  I probably could stand it a lot better if we were only going to see Jamie's retelling of it, but I feel like with so much focus on Randall, and his pleasure in the lengthy retelling of the flogging in "The Garrison Commander", and the intimidation of Jenny with his finger, etc (was that so necessary to linger on?)... anyway... Just going on past performance, I don't think the show is going to consider the impact on a whole lot of female fans who are going to see their hero absolutely broken.   The oncoming disaster is no where near a "romance trope" so those viewers who tuned in, in the beginning thinking "romantic" may not be able to see past it, and may not be willing to come back.  I think this is one of those areas that Ron just might not "get" a woman's sense of what it's like to hurt for a man who is beyond his endurance.  He's just thinking of  what he can do with it dramatically.  I'm thinking about how hard it is going to be to get past it, emotionally.

 

I have a hard time seeing men broken, even broken in ways much smaller than this is going to be.  

 

So yeah, for me, the thing that's overshadowing this whole second half is absolute dread.

[chocolatetruffle]

It might just be that I have this horrible sense that we're in front of an oncoming train, and I'm becoming more and more convinced that Ron, et al, do not plan to show us, as viewers, any mercy at all.  Every episode we get closer to the horrible things to come, the worse I feel about the show, even though each episode is reasonably good, on its own merits.  I feel like they're going to revel in what they can get away with showing us on tv, and it's going to leave a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.  I skip Jamie's recounting of what happened, every time I re-read.  I just can't, with it.  But I feel like the show is going to be so proud of itself for "going there" and showing us all of it.  I probably could stand it a lot better if we were only going to see Jamie's retelling of it, but I feel like with so much focus on Randall, and his pleasure in the lengthy retelling of the flogging in "The Garrison Commander", and the intimidation of Jenny with his finger, etc (was that so necessary to linger on?)... anyway... Just going on past performance, I don't think the show is going to consider the impact on a whole lot of female fans who are going to see their hero absolutely broken.   The oncoming disaster is no where near a "romance trope" so those viewers who tuned in, in the beginning thinking "romantic" may not be able to see past it, and may not be willing to come back.  I think this is one of those areas that Ron just might not "get" a woman's sense of what it's like to hurt for a man who is beyond his endurance.  He's just thinking of  what he can do with it dramatically.  I'm thinking about how hard it is going to be to get past it, emotionally.

 

I have a hard time seeing men broken, even broken in ways much smaller than this is going to be.  

 

So yeah, for me, the thing that's overshadowing this whole second half is absolute dread.

 

You have so eloquently said exactly what I have been feeling.  Reading it I realized this is exactly what is going on with me as well.  Every episode is one hour closer to something I'm just dreading and at this point in the story there are no more happy moments left.

[CalamityBoPeep]

 Every episode is one hour closer to something I'm just dreading and at this point in the story there are no more happy moments left.

 

All I can do, for myself, is promise me not to watch-watch, but just listen-watch that part, if I can.  And then never watch those scenes again.  At least in Season 2, we'll have a less broken Jamie. He'll have built his lean-to for his vulnerable bit of soul, by then.  Of course, then we get poor Fergus at the hands of Randall. :-(

 

You know what?  I'm starting to think this is a really sick series of books.  LOL  I mean, I've noted to myself, of course, that every single person ends up raped, but when you put it all close together for television, rather than separated by hundreds of pages of text, the impact is huge and really does seem to glorify the evil-doers at the expense of the "good guys."  I expect we'll get the same treatment with Bonnet, down the line, if the viewers keep watching.

[ulkis]

One part I was really not expecting to hear was Jenny's speech about being pregnant. In the book I always find it super creepy and kind of disgusting, but Laura Donnelly did a great job with it. Of course I think it helped that she was only telling Claire, not also Ian and her brother Jamie (while Jamie rubbed her feet!), but still. The delivery of the speech was great.

 

I was watching with my no-knowledge-of-the-book-sister, and in the middle of Jenny's speech she said, " . . . . this is kiiinda creepy" so I have a feeling it might only be non-creepy in comparison to the book, heh. 

 

I liked the part where Ian stabbed Horrocks just because it gave me a little scare.

 

 

You know what?  I'm starting to think this is a really sick series of books.  LOL  I mean, I've noted to myself, of course, that every single person ends up raped, but when you put it all close together for television, rather than separated by hundreds of pages of text, the impact is huge and really does seem to glorify the evil-doers at the expense of the "good guys."  I expect we'll get the same treatment with Bonnet, down the line, if the viewers keep watching.

 

I don't think it glorifies the bad guys per se but having bad guys get away with everything can make for annoying viewing. But at least Randall seems to die this season.

[nodorothyparker]

It might just be that I have this horrible sense that we're in front of an oncoming train, and I'm becoming more and more convinced that Ron, et al, do not plan to show us, as viewers, any mercy at all.  Every episode we get closer to the horrible things to come, the worse I feel about the show, even though each episode is reasonably good, on its own merits.  I feel like they're going to revel in what they can get away with showing us on tv, and it's going to leave a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach.

 

This is a problem I'm having too.  If I can mentally separate what I know is coming from these past two episodes, I can appreciate that they've had some really lovely quieter character moments.  But it's just impossible at this point to not see that train bearing down on you and it colors every scene Jamie's in because we know how awful it was in the book even before Ron Moore gets to go skeevy Tobias Menzies chewing scenery balls to the wall with it.

 

I'm still not completely sold on the actor playing Ian even if I can't really articulate why.  Last week I thought it was me just being terribly picky because he's such a sentimental book favorite.  But while the actor is certainly doing a decent enough job with what he's being given, there's something generically off about either him or the character that I can't quite figure out.  It's not a huge thing but it sticks out because the actress playing Jenny is so absolutely spot on in everything she does.  The birthing scenes were surprisingly good television even if it did feel off to have Jamie and Ian so blasely coming and going as it dragged on for days.  Special thanks to whoever made the decision to dial back the "what's pregnancy like" scene to something that made sense between just Claire and Jenny instead of the vaguely inappropriate talk about breasts swelling with milk and all men wanting to crawl back inside that she was giving her brother in the book.  Show Jamie and Jenny have been so much tolerable without all the weird quasi-sexual talk.

 

I found myself actually liking McQuarrie and it seemed like Jamie did too once he'd finally just had enough and laid everything out on the table for him.   Because we know he spent some time riding around with the broken men stealing cattle and doing whatever before our story begins, you could see him realizing the path not taken had he not been able to shelter at Castle Leoch and then marry Claire.  As an Irish deserter, Horrocks' presence in the story felt rather far-fetched but he was a temporary plot device to move things along.  At least by him being the means to Jamie's capture rather than the childbeating McNabb, we get to avoid Claire's inability to not meddle or shoot her mouth off being indirectly responsible for everything that comes next.

Edited May 3, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[Pestilentia]

 

I have a hard time seeing men broken, even broken in ways much smaller than this is going to be. 

 

So yeah, for me, the thing that's overshadowing this whole second half is absolute dread.

Very well put post, thank you.

[ulkis]

I think this is one of those areas that Ron just might not "get" a woman's sense of what it's like to hurt for a man who is beyond his endurance.  He's just thinking of  what he can do with it dramatically.  I'm thinking about how hard it is going to be to get past it, emotionally.

 

But a lot of women like putting as much crap as possible onto their hero's shoulders. And of course, the person who wrote all this in the first place is a woman, and when she was writing it she was writing it for herself and thought no one else was going to see it. So I don't think there will necessarily be a huge disconnect between what Ron did with the scenes and what Diana thought he should do with them.

 

Not that Ron might not over do it/screw it up. I just hope he listened to the writers who told him he should have made the beating/spanking have a more serious tone and that the scenes where Claire made her decision to stay be more explicit.

[peacefrog]

Wonderful posts guys. I've been quiet because honestly I don't know what I think. I watched Lallybroch again and think I was to harsh in my original thoughts. I thought this episode was much better. 

 

Agree about birthing scene, Horracks death, Claire thinking she's infertile, Sam's entire performance. All fantastic. As a whole episode I'm still feeling like something is missing. I wish I had no idea what was coming. For this season there is not one scene I am looking to see played on screen anymore. That ended with the I love yous. Yet I will watch because I do think these actors are going to bring it in scenes that have not really been seen on a tv show ever.

 

Today I asked my unspoiled, non-book reader husband(who loves the show) what his guess was for the last 3 episodes. He said they have to revisit the stones and he hopes Claire brings Jamie through! None of the foreshadowing about BJR has hit him yet. He said first Jamie saves Claire, now it's her turn to save him. He does think there will be showdown between them and BJR will die. His only thoughts about BJR is that he will screw anything as long as it screams. I have a really hard time keeping my mouth shut.

[lianau]

Have I missed something ? Where is this Randall dies this season talk coming from?

[bluebonnet]

I think it's mostly coming from the idea that the male protagonist won't die in the first season of a show and the only/best way for him to go on is in a world where his villainous adversary no longer exists.  At least, that's how my unspoiled friends are speculating.  

[ulkis]

Have I missed something ? Where is this Randall dies this season talk coming from?

 

I didn't mean that he actually dies, just that viewers think he will. I think. Maybe they'll change it.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I think it's mostly coming from the idea that the male protagonist won't die in the first season of a show and the only/best way for him to go on is in a world where his villainous adversary no longer exists.  At least, that's how my unspoiled friends are speculating.  

 

Ahhh. I see.

 

 

 

I didn't mean that he actually dies, just that viewers think he will. I think. Maybe they'll change it.

 

Well, unless the reveal of Frank's paternal line is done off screen and...no, never mind. My memory is not so great about the books so I'll let someone who is respond.

[ulkis]

The third brother is actually Frank's ancestor, right?

[GHScorpiosRule]

The third brother is actually Frank's ancestor, right?

 

I don't remember which number brother he is, but Alex is Frank's ancestor.

Edited May 4, 2015 by GHScorpiosRule

[Glaze Crazy]

I would quote a whole bunch of posts above, but I just favorited them instead.  You guys said pretty much what I thought about this episode.

 

Loved the sets and keep trying to peek behind the actors to get a better idea of exactly how Lallybroch is supposed to be laid out inside that exterior they are using.

 

Liked the character interactions that showed how Jamie and Ian are there for each other and yet how Ian seems to still be affected by his time in the army in France.  That Ian sees the MacQuarrie as someone who sees beyond his injury and one of the reasons he does business with him is proved when Jamie says Ian doesn't have to go and MacQuarrie says sure he can, he can hold a gun.  I also think Horrocks sold out the Watch, not Jamie.  He was late arriving and I don't think enough time had passed for him to leave again without question to go to the local garrison and set up the ambush.  Jamie's face when he just tells MacQuarrie who he is and "what are you gonna do about it anyway?" was great.  Also when Claire tells him about thinking she's infertile.  He does look sad even though he is kind to her about it.  How heartbroken she looked too.

 

I also didn't get the idea that the bulk of the story of Jenny's labor/Horrocks death/Jamie and Ian going off with the Watch spanned more than a 24 hour period, not 3 days of labor, as someone up thread mentioned.  I think the 3 days is how long until Ian and that other guy came back to Lallybroch. (It should have been Murtaugh who found and brought Ian back, just sayin')

 

Loved the bonding between Claire and Jenny after last week's little standoff.  I'm glad they redeemed the Jenny character, since I really felt they mis-played her prickly attitude last week.  The actress really sold the birthing scenes too.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Glaze Crazy

[Helena Dax]

I agree that it's a bit more difficult to enjoy these episodes when you know what's coming for Jamie. Also, one of the reasons I stopped reading the books was because everyone was being raped. It didn't bother me in the moral sense; I just realized I was rolling my eyes and thinking "omg, here we go again", Like incest in a V. C. Andrews's book. I know there are huge fans of the books here and I don't want to offend anyone, but I think the saga gets worse around the fourth book and the show (and the audience) will have to deal with that.

 

Jamie looked extra hot this episode. And he's got the prettiest skin of all the Scotsmen. There was a guy in the Watch that reminded me of Sandor Clegane, his face almost looked scarred. 

 

When Jamie and Claire were talking about kids, I'm surprised none of them said Frank might be the one with the problem. I get why they would be worried, of course, but they're usually so optimistic...

[lianau]

When Jamie and Claire were talking about kids, I'm surprised none of them said Frank might be the one with the problem. I get why they would be worried, of course, but they're usually so optimistic...

I think that's just how it works . I mean women are also blamed when they don't have boys  . Even Claire never thought it might be Frank with the problem until years later and after having had Faith and Brianna .

Edited May 4, 2015 by lianau

[Dejana]

I think that's just how it works . I mean woman are also blamed when they don't have boys  . Even Claire never thought it might be Frank with the problem until years later and after having had Faith and Brianna .

 

I agree, both Jamie and Claire are both products of their times in first assuming it's the woman's fault if there are fertility problems.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Dejana

[The Ravens Three]

I liked this ep. I think The Watch and Lallybroch have seemed like interim eps because I know what's coming and I'm interested in seeing how everything will play with BJ, so I would like to rewatch them because there are real good moments in them. Jaime and his father in Lallybroch, Ian and Jamie and Jenny and Claire in this ep.

Side note, I like that DG reiterated that BJ is a sadist and not gay. I often got that reading from it too, but was afraid she didn't.

I loved that they kept the dialogue where Jenny talks about birth. I never got a creepy vibe from it like some, I Liked the way it made birth primal and intimate.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I loved that they kept the dialogue where Jenny talks about birth.

 

She wasn't talking about childbirth, but how it felt to be pregnant--in the show, Claire asked her what it felt like to be pregnant. Someone else,  I think, in the non-book thread also said they liked how Jenny described childbirth. But that's not what she's describing. it's how a pregnancy feels.

[Nidratime]

It looks like Horrocks set himself up as a "double agent," playing both sides against the middle. It wouldn't surprise me that the British would deal with him if he could lead them to a band of extortionists roaming the Highlands.

 

As for the fate of Black Jack, I hope the show doesn't let the cat out of the bag *this* season. It would be more "shocking" to the non-book reader who managed to keep himself/herself unspoiled to see BJR once again in season 2 when they actually thought he had died. Of course, that begs the question of Frank's ancestry. However, one can speculate that while Randall was still alive he got someone pregnant, considering how much he likes to sexually assault people. We know the real answer to that situation, but *that* is one way of explaining how Black Jack could be dead and still be Frank's ancestor.

[mledawn]

bluebonnet said:

I think it's mostly coming from the idea that the male protagonist won't die in the first season of a show and the only/best way for him to go on is in a world where his villainous adversary no longer exists.  At least, that's how my unspoiled friends are speculating. 

 

GHScorpiosRule said:

Ahhh. I see.

 

It could also be because the running joke is how Tobias Menzies has a history of playing characters that don't live out an entire series

Edited May 4, 2015 by mledawn

[GHScorpiosRule]

It could also be because the running joke is how Tobias Menzies has a history of playing characters that don't live out an entire series

 

 

I thought that was Sean Bean?

[AheadofStraight]

Don't have much to add except for a dip in the shallow end...I wouldn't have minded a nice, tender sex scene before he left and the hell that is to come. The last sex scene we had was the one with the sword to the neck, not counting the finger fun before the stones IIRC. 

 

I did enjoy the childbirth scene though I always do a little eyerolling when there is over-the-top screaming. I realize some women are like this but not all of us are. It just seems like everyone on TV is like that. I had a breech baby, born at home (his position was a surprise) and I did stay on my hands and knees for awhile so that was cool to see. 

[Squirrely]

The only real quibble I have about all the Lallybroch scenes is that we didn't get Claire making Jamie smile in his sleep and the story from Jenny about how he did it as a boy. And for Jenny to say it must mean he's happy. Yet another little thing that seems inconsequential, but does get revisited far down the line.

I guess I'm still feeling disappointed that we haven't seen the relationship growth that occurs at Lallybroch. That was when Jamie was able to breathe for a bit, and he and Claire really cemented their bond. I know it doesn't make for exciting television, but a little flash and/or voice over about evenings spent in the parlor with the couples would have been nice.

I'm also dreading what's to come. I've read Outlander more than a dozen times, but have skimmed through the worst of the Wentworth scenes at least ten of those times.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Squirrely

[GHScorpiosRule]

One thing I forgot to mention--when Claire reached over to kiss Jenny on the cheek for giving her the bracelets, you saw Jenny flinch/shy away. Guess she's not comfortable with demonstrations of affection? It didn't bother me, but I did notice it.

[chocolatetruffle]

The only real quibble I have about all the Lallybroch scenes is that we didn't get Claire making Jamie smile in his sleep and the story from Jenny about how he did it as a boy. And for Jenny to say it must mean he's happy. Yet another little thing that seems inconsequential, but does get revisited far down the line.

 

Oh I had forgotten all about this.  Maybe we will get it during the next episode when Jenny & Claire are on the road.  If we do, it would be a great way to end the season if we see Jaime smile in his sleep.

 

 

One thing I forgot to mention--when Claire reached over to kiss Jenny on the cheek for giving her the bracelets, you saw Jenny flinch/shy away. Guess she's not comfortable with demonstrations of affection? It didn't bother me, but I did notice it.

 

I loved that moment.  I think it was her shying away as she didn't expect it.  But it was a very sweet moment between the two.

[ElsieH]

I'm wondering if it is realistic that the British army would strike a deal with a former Redcoat deserter. Wouldn't he be wanted for treason himself? And would giving them a handful of Scottish raiders be worth letting Horrocks go free? It just seems to me that the army would rather arrest a deserter who is guilty of treason rather than a roving band of troublemakers. Other than that, it was pretty good. But seriously, where is Murtagh?

Edited May 4, 2015 by ElsieH