S01.E21: The Anvil Or The Hammer

[Slovenly Muse]

 

It works out in a comic book universe but calling her a real life victim who deserves sympathy and support doesn't seem at all plausible or authentic to me.

This is it exactly. If Barbara was a real woman who had gone through this kind of ordeal, I would NEVER judge her or express disappointment that she wasn't able to resist her captor or make an effort to save herself. NEVER. But Barbara's not a real woman, she's a fictional character, and every aspect of her story, from her kidnapping to her choices to her FEELINGS about her situation, were planned out and written by a group of mostly men. They have chosen to write her as a damsel in distress who not only needs rescuing, but is helpless and impotent in absolutely every way, unable even to SAY anything that might buy her some time. She just caves to what he wants and sells out her own parents with barely a token resistance. This show is meant not to mirror the real world (hello bat costumes!), but to serve as entertainment. And there is something really unpleasant about the notion that people are "entertained" by watching helpless dimwitted women be overpowered and tortured until their man shows up to save them. Yes, Barbara has been written as AWFUL at everything throughout the season, but that is a choice the writers make and continue to make. This was yet another opportunity for her to be better, for her to be ENTERTAINING instead of just a failure. That's why it's so disappointing to see yet another opportunity wasted. Even if they have a plan for her, it better be damn good to make up for all this, and from their track record so far, I don't hold out much hope.

 

Floor lamps, indeed.

[Lazlo]

While don't I think the women in Gotham are particularly notable I'm not sure I'd agree with the floor lamp thesis.

 

Selina and Fish are strong, smart characters who get there way more often than not and force their way into the main plot. Barbara, while an incredibly flawed character is consistently written and someone we get a lot of insight into. All three of them are main characters. Captain Essen and Leslie might not have that much to do being supporting characters, but the same could be said of most supporting characters in the show; Alfred, awesome though he is, has functionally been a male damsel in distress for several episodes. Until very recently Nygma existed as little more than a creepy exposition board. Butch, maybe the most interesting of all the minor characters in the show is little more than Cobblepot's anonymous goon now.

 

Gotham isn't great at writing supporting characters period and it just happens that most of the main characters are male with only Fish and Selina and Barara as true female main characters. That gender split isn't equal by any means and that can legitimately be criticised but it is a stretch to complain a tertiary character like Kris isn't getting the same focus as the mains.

[Malbec]

I can understand people being disappointed by Barbara being so passive. What I don't understand is why some people seem to think she should have acted like some master criminal type and manipulated or overpowered the Ogre easily.

 

 

If you take this episode by itself, Barbara's passivity was justifiable as someone who was trying to survive.  But taken in context with the show's entire treatment of her character, it was like example #2459803 of how the writers just treat her like a marionette.  She exists for Jim!angst, she briefly exists for Montoya!angst, she had some scenes with Selena and Ivy where frankly even the two young girls showed more personality and gumption than Barbara ever does.  Now she's back and exists for more Jim!angst.  She's written as a completely empty damsel-shaped vessel, and it's annoying.

[vibeology]

While don't I think the women in Gotham are particularly notable I'm not sure I'd agree with the floor lamp thesis.

 

Selina and Fish are strong, smart characters who get there way more often than not and force their way into the main plot. 

 

Fish has literally been off on an island on her own for the back half of the season. Nothing happening with Fish has mattered to the rest of the characters for weeks. In fact, we haven't seen her for weeks. She was one of the promoted characters starting the season and the writers couldn't even be bothered to keep her involved in the plot for 22 episodes. 

 

The writing on this show is uneven and lazy for everyone. The scene where Jim and Harvey got the call from the Ogre and used their "detective" skills to hear a train was painful, but the women seem to get the worst of it over and over. Its very clear from reading this thread that many people couldn't tell that Barbara was drugged because her character is so all over the place that nothing she can do would seem out of character. That's a serious problem. This is a plot driven show and I expect everyone to be handed the idiot ball some of the time to move things forward, but Barbara has her own special idiot ball the writers rely on every single time they plan a story for her and that's not okay and not very compelling TV.

[Delphi]

I don't think I can agree with most of that. I understand that people wanted Barbara to be stronger because strong women in fiction is amazing. But you can't want her to be strong because this is fiction and you don't want to see what would happen in reality.

I disagree that this show isn't supposed to mirror the real world because I think that it is, it's just highly exaggerated. Barbara had a reaction that while I don't relate too I understand. If she had anything other then that it would have seemed not genuine. So her reaction was not ideal but if she acted stronger than she was that would have taken me out of the moment and I'm supposed to stay in it. For forty five minutes a week I am supposed to believe that this story is real. It's not fair to expect a character we're supposed to see as a real person to act like a caricature even if the caricature would be better liked.

[Danielg342]

Small note- the "Hammer and Anvil" is a military tactic, where you strike the enemy with your "heavy hitting" forces and then blindside them from behind with quick-hitting cavalry units, effectively sandwiching them. I'm guessing it's a reference to Penguin's plan, to have Maroni be the "heavy hitter" striking against Falcone while he blindsides Falcone with quick hits of his own. Or he does that to Maroni, I'm not sure.

 

On to my episode thoughts:

 

So Bullock shoots the Ogre dead and Jim is the one who gets all the plaudits. Worse, when Jim does receive the plaudits, he doesn't even so much as hint at the help Bullock gave him. He might believe in "honour before reason" but he sure doesn't care too much about integrity.

 

Speaking of Bullock- is there any reason other than "plot armour" that he got a chance to take that shot in the first place? The Ogre was carrying a knife when he hit Bullock from behind- why didn't he stab him in the neck?

 

(I actually thought that happened since it's late enough in the season for something like that to take place...and yeah, I would have hated it. So I guess I'm thankful for "plot armour" after all)

 

(Did find Bullock's reactions to what was going on at that club to be funny- it was probably best that we didn't see what was happening, because I don't think there could be a situation that could do justice to whatever could offend the sensibilities of someone who's as "open-minded" as Bullock is)

 

The Penguin...that was a clever little ruse, using Connor and his buddy as pawns to start a gang war between Maroni and Falcone. I have to give him credit for that, because as unbelievably lucky as he is, he has been great at concocting ruses and manipulating things. The only real issue I have here is I wonder how long it'll take before people realize he "uses" people thus making them turn on him- eventually he has to learn not everyone can be a pawn. It could also help too if his most important charges (i.e. Butch) are also in on his plans...he can't pull everything off by himself.

 

Did enjoy Oswald's "terrified but smug" look when Jim snarled at him at the bar...Robin Lord Taylor played it wonderfully.

 

Great to see Carmine Falcone back, even if Falcone didn't actually speak. John Doman did play it with the right sense of urgency- hopefully he'll get a much bigger role in the finale. He's been on the sidelines too long.

 

The Bruce story was a bit rote...I could see Sid Bunderslaw sneaking up from behind him a mile away. I did enjoy Bunderslaw telling Bruce he needs to have "the talk"...it was a funny double entendre as well as appropriate, since learning the reality of how Wayne Enterprises works is what will shift Bruce from a boy to a man. So, like puberty, this was a seminal moment in the future Batman's growth.

 

(I just wonder how he could say "no" to that cookie...then again, it is a "Wayne" cookie so he has his reasons)

 

Finally...Barbara. Colour me disappointed. Here I was, watching last week and having a lot of fun seeing the chemistry oozing between The Ogre and Barbara, thinking that, in a weird, twisted sense, here could have been a couple that would have been mesmerizing to watch. Yeah, perhaps that storyline isn't anything "new", but it was deliciously weird, and Milo Ventimiglia and Erin Richards had sparks flying all over the place meaning it would have been fun to watch anyway. Besides, I would have loved to have seen the look in Jim's eyes when he tried to "rescue" Barbara, only for him to realize that she didn't want to be saved anyway.

 

Or, better yet, Barbara using this love with The Ogre to set Jim up, forcing Jim to where he needs to be rescued, in a wonderful turning of the tables of what we expected out of Barbara before. Or perhaps Barbara pretends to love The Ogre to set him up to a point where he needs to be rescued by Jim, or perhaps Barbara sets both the Ogre and Jim up or finds some way to manipulate things to put Lee in peril making Jim truly have to pick between Lee and Barbara.

 

So many different possibilities...and the show utterly and completely dropped the ball.

 

Perhaps the show couldn't resist fitting Erin Richards in those chains (I admit, she did look kind of hot dangling from the ceiling with that wide-eyed pouty look in that lacy top and that leather mouthguard-like gag she was affixed with) but I think, in that case, it would have been a lot more fun if Barbara was a willing participant instead of an actually whimpering damsel, with perhaps that pouty face being part of that twisted game she'd be playing with The Ogre. Not only was the BDSM relationship something we expected last week, it could have made for some wonderfully kinky scenes and it might have been great to see a BDSM relationship on screen that's actually consensual.

 

Furthermore, the realization that this would likely be the only episode we'd get to have Barbara and The Ogre together meant the show should not have wasted any time letting those two have their "fun", meaning we could have had a truly memorable episode. Had the writers realized this and let their creativity run wild perhaps they'd have an episode that would be talked about for ages, instead of giving us an episode that was yet another rote "save the girl" episode that is sure not to be talked about for times to come.

 

No wonder the ratings are in the toilet...when the writers have the chance to actually be bold, they cower in fear. I get that maybe they believe the audience has certain "expectations" for how the show should go but that doesn't mean they can't "change the script" every now and then.

 

It wasn't a bad episode, but certainly not all that great. I'm in the middle. Here's hoping the finale more than makes up for this mess.

[Slovenly Muse]

 

I disagree that this show isn't supposed to mirror the real world because I think that it is, it's just highly exaggerated. Barbara had a reaction that while I don't relate too I understand. If she had anything other then that it would have seemed not genuine. So her reaction was not ideal but if she acted stronger than she was that would have taken me out of the moment and I'm supposed to stay in it. For forty five minutes a week I am supposed to believe that this story is real. It's not fair to expect a character we're supposed to see as a real person to act like a caricature even if the caricature would be better liked.

 

Really disagree with this. For one thing, I think the Barbara we saw last night was more like a caricature than she would have been had she had some more agency. For another, this show does not mirror life. There are shows that mirror life brilliantly, and they take the human condition as their starting point and build great drama around it. Shows like Mad Men, The Wire, Breaking Bad, even Game of Thrones do this. Gotham's starting point is "Batman." This show modifies the human condition to tell its story. It's purpose is entertainment, not realism. And to be most entertaining, it should mine its storylines for drama. Part of the reason Barbara's story was so disappointing is that drama-wise, she was not even the focus of her own plotline. ALL the most affecting, life-altering moments that Barbara experienced during her ordeal happened off-screen. I'm talking about the moment when she was forced to name someone to die in order to save her own life, and she named her parents. Holy shit! I would have LOVED to see her emotional reaction to hearing those words come out of her mouth. How about the drive to her parents' house? Sitting in a vehicle with a psychotic killer, searching desperately for a way out, praying that Jim or SOMEONE intervenes in time before her family is murdered because of her. THAT'S drama. How about watching her parents get murdered in front of her because of a choice she made? Hanging from her wrists all day is awful, but THESE are the moments that can break a person, that can twist a person into a cackling villain or a tormented vigilante. But we didn't get to see any of that, because ALL of the drama belonged to Jim, and his ridiculous and ultimately unimportant storyline of racing the clock to save Barbara (thanks, unbelievably convenient phone call!). We don't even get a sense of how she felt, and couldn't even say for sure if she was being affected by drugs or by emotions, and it was not the fault of the actress.

 

And that's ultimately the problem. The women on this show aren't really treated like people, but like props in the male characters' storylines. I would be fine with Barbara's damselling if we actually got to see HER story. The male supporting characters are also flat, but at least they sometimes DO things, make choices that affect others. Kristin has no purpose other than to support Ed's story. Leslie has no purpose but to support Jim's. The are not characters in their own right. Even Fish is ultimately nothing but a stepping stone in Penguin's rise to power. She hasn't affected much real change on the show either, even when she WAS at the centre of things. Selina is slightly better, but even she doesn't tend to do much apart from show up sometimes and help Bruce with whatever HE'S up to. I know they're supporting characters, but still, contrast that with the number of male characters who get to take action on their own behalf and drive their own storylines.

 

This show does have a LOT of weaknesses in its writing, but its treatment of its female characters is probably the most egregious.

[Lazlo]

If you take this episode by itself, Barbara's passivity was justifiable as someone who was trying to survive.  But taken in context with the show's entire treatment of her character, it was like example #2459803 of how the writers just treat her like a marionette.  She exists for Jim!angst, she briefly exists for Montoya!angst, she had some scenes with Selena and Ivy where frankly even the two young girls showed more personality and gumption than Barbara ever does.  Now she's back and exists for more Jim!angst.  She's written as a completely empty damsel-shaped vessel, and it's annoying.

 

 

I can't say I agree with this. Jim literally forgot about her up until the last moment and he already seemed to have moved on again at the end of the episode. If she was truly around for angst reasons that just wouldn't be happening.

 

We've been following Barbara plumb the depths of self destructiveness largely unconnected with Jim for weeks now. She's literally going through her own story and if she were simply a living prop she'd have vanished after dumping Jim and not shown up again til last week or even this week. She doesn't neccessarily emerge as likable for that story and I admit it isn't my favourite (though I like it more than some) but I don't understand the complaint that she exists for other character's angst.

 

Fish has literally been off on an island on her own for the back half of the season. Nothing happening with Fish has mattered to the rest of the characters for weeks. In fact, we haven't seen her for weeks. She was one of the promoted characters starting the season and the writers couldn't even be bothered to keep her involved in the plot for 22 episodes. 

 

The writing on this show is uneven and lazy for everyone. The scene where Jim and Harvey got the call from the Ogre and used their "detective" skills to hear a train was painful, but the women seem to get the worst of it over and over. Its very clear from reading this thread that many people couldn't tell that Barbara was drugged because her character is so all over the place that nothing she can do would seem out of character. That's a serious problem. This is a plot driven show and I expect everyone to be handed the idiot ball some of the time to move things forward, but Barbara has her own special idiot ball the writers rely on every single time they plan a story for her and that's not okay and not very compelling TV.

 

Carmine Falcone vanished for literally half the series despite being absolutely vitally important for everyone in Gotham supposedly. Nygma's plotline doesn't interact at all with the other leads and even Jim and Cobblepot don't cross over all that often. Fish isn't exactly a losse thread outside a tightly woven tapestry.

 

I do have to ask for the viewers who were disappointed with Barbara this episode, what, given the character as written would or could she have done? A lot of people in this thread seem to suppose that Barbara is a manipulative genius but I have to agree with Delphi that she can't suddenly be turned into a superwoman without breaking belief in the character completely.

[Danielg342]

For me, my disappointment was not the story as written- I would agree, given how the story was plotted, there was little Barbara could do. The disappointment lie more in the storyline choice, because I didn't think there was any reason for the writers to turn it into yet another “damsel in distress” story.

Last week gave us the potential that Barbara and The Ogre could have been a couple, and I think, as a couple, they could have been fascinating. We could have had some fun with two twisted minds getting together and letting their “creativities” run wild, with perhaps Barbara becoming a willing but unlikely sidekick. Perhaps, at this point, Barbara could have pretended to be a damsel just as a ruse to get Jim to try to “save” her, only for Jim to realize he's the one in peril. From here, it might have even allowed The Ogre a chance to escape, in one of those rare moments where a villain gets away and it actually makes sense.

I think, at its core, it's more about potential. Erin Richards certainly has the ability to play a depraved criminal, and Barbara has shown flashes of being that kind of character. The Ogre presented an opportunity where that could have played out, in a dynamic, perhaps, where The Ogre supports Barbara's story for a change. To me, I saw something in Barbara that the writers totally bailed on, and I think that is the central flaw. Don't tease me about having this great character and then reduce her to a cliche- deliver on it.

Is it wrong, in principle, for the show to have Barbara be a perpetual “damsel in distress”? Would it also be wrong for Gotham not to have “strong, independent” female characters? On both counts, no, I don't think so- creative vision is creative vision, and if the heart's not there in the artist to use females in strong roles, so be it. A lot of viewers might not like it, but you can't please everyone.

The problem only comes when you promise one thing and deliver another. If Barbara's only role was to be Jim's damsel to be saved- as is, ultimately, what happened in this episode- then make her a recurring character, don't pretend that she's a “central” character. Otherwise, make her independent. Give Barbara her own set of strengths and weaknesses, and her own storyline. Perhaps mileage just has to vary, but I don't think the “independent” storyline she got was much of one at all, since it didn't really lead anywhere except to back in Jim's saving arms.

I guess in the end, it's not that she's a damsel- she's not an interesting one. If it was Lee who was “damseled”, it would have been a far better choice- at least Lee has a role (being the M.E. and at least Jim's equal at work) and she's a far more interesting character. Sure, it might have also been a cliche- but at least it would have been interesting- and given “cowboy Jim” the wakeup call he desperately needs.

[Malbec]

There is a whole spectrum of reactions between "passive damsel" and "elite crime-fighting mastermind" that the writers could have chosen for Barbara.

 

I feel like people who want to write non-combatant female characters taking care of themselves need to go back and watch the first season of 24.  Jack Bauer's wife Teri, basically a suburban mom, gets kidnapped by baddies.  And handles it like a fucking boss.  She doesn't do anything out of the realm of possibility for a civilian; she doesn't demonstrate any particular combat skills or knowledge of the criminal mind.  In fact, most of her escape attempts fail.  But the resistance she puts up is credible and brave.  In that way, even though she's kidnapped specifically to cause pain to Jack (much as the Ogre was using Barbara to get at Jim), the story nevertheless benefits her characterization and gives her some agency.  

 

Barbara... I don't think anyone was expecting her to suddenly bust out some hidden MMA skills or to defeat the Ogre on her own, but her resistance didn't have to be completely token either.  And, if she had been really well-written up to this point and just froze in the moment, I could probably accept that.  But her characterization has been so flaccid and dull up to this point, and this episode was just kinda more of the same.  Other than a few hints, I honestly don't feel like I learned much about Barbara this episode.

 

I think the term "strong female character" can get mischaracterized sometimes -- I don't need a strong female character in the sense of a physically strong woman who crushes everything in her path, but what I do need is a female character whose *characterization* is strong.  That's where Barbara really fails for me.

[Blakeston]

She is a violent crime survivor. She was threatened with immediate death several times. She was a prisoner in an apartment designed to be sound- and escape-proof. To call her evil or a villain is to victim-blame.

 

When told no ( to naming another victim), Barbara was told then she could die. Unless trying to stay alive is a major crime now, I can't get angry at her. Picking her parents was the least evil of the many choices she had at hand ( if she has any religious beliefs). Sending Jason to powerful, well-known and guarded people would probably be discarded by Jason or take too long for his plans/her plans. (He wanted her to share his crimes; she was trying to buy herself or Jim some time.).

 

How is choosing both of her parents the least evil of the many choices she had at hand?

 

It's one thing to say that Barbara can't be held accountable for the decision she made, because she'd been held captive and tortured. But I don't see how the choice she made was less evil than, say, choosing one of her parents.

 

And it's entirely possible that sending him to Jim might have worked. The Ogre was already perfectly willing to incur Jim's wrath, and he might have been happy to prove what a badass he was. Whereas choosing her parents could have made him disgusted with her. She was taking a risk either way.

[Perfect Xero]

 

So Bullock shoots the Ogre dead and Jim is the one who gets all the plaudits. Worse, when Jim does receive the plaudits, he doesn't even so much as hint at the help Bullock gave him. He might believe in "honour before reason" but he sure doesn't care too much about integrity.

 

Gordon shot the Ogre when Bullock distracted him.

[Shanna]

Barbara is a mess. Once they made that clear I have enjoyed the hell out of her. I loved this storyline. She did fight back but then she lost it. That fits her character. She and the ogre do have amazing chemistry and looked very nice together but I can't exactly be sad he is dead.

I thought fainting was such a reasonable response to finding out the guy had murdered ten other women that it took me a second to connect it with the drugged water.

And I want to say that her sending the guy after Leslie would have been so much more cliche and less interesting. I don't even think she actually met Leslie. This shows a dark side to Barbara and I suspect she will end up spending time at Arkham or maybe being rich she will just be left to be self destructive at home. Either way I love Erin's performance.

The rest of the episode was good too especially Donal in a suit!

Edited April 29, 2015 by Shanna

[Danielg342]

Gordon shot the Ogre when Bullock distracted him.

I saw Bullock firing...regardless, I didn't like seeing Jim take all the credit when Bullock did do a lot for the case (such as go to that club and identify the hotel The Ogre's apartment was nearby).

[Chicago Redshirt]

While don't I think the women in Gotham are particularly notable I'm not sure I'd agree with the floor lamp thesis.

 

Selina and Fish are strong, smart characters who get there way more often than not and force their way into the main plot. Barbara, while an incredibly flawed character is consistently written and someone we get a lot of insight into. All three of them are main characters. Captain Essen and Leslie might not have that much to do being supporting characters, but the same could be said of most supporting characters in the show; Alfred, awesome though he is, has functionally been a male damsel in distress for several episodes. Until very recently Nygma existed as little more than a creepy exposition board. Butch, maybe the most interesting of all the minor characters in the show is little more than Cobblepot's anonymous goon now.

 

Gotham isn't great at writing supporting characters period and it just happens that most of the main characters are male with only Fish and Selina and Barara as true female main characters. That gender split isn't equal by any means and that can legitimately be criticised but it is a stretch to complain a tertiary character like Kris isn't getting the same focus as the mains.

I don't see how one could describe Barbara as consistently written. After 21 episodes, I don't know if we have much of an idea of who she is supposed to be or what her personality traits are. She has an art gallery that she has never been to. She has a wild past and bisexual tendencies. What adjectives might one use to describe her? The best I can come up with are "needy," "broken" and "foolish."

 

In a show like Gotham, of course every character is going to be "in distress" at some point or another. But the good characters (IMO) are the ones that have agency, hopes, dreams, desires, fears. We know what motivates Alfred, not just because we've been told it, but because we've been shown it: He feels responsible for Bruce, loves him, wants to protect him, feels he owes a debt to the Waynes etc. With that, it's OK IMO that we don't have yet a lot of the details of how he came to feel this way, what the relationship was between him and Thomas and Martha, how he switched from military badass to butler badass, etc.

 

This latest string of episodes hinted at a motivation for Barbara -- she is a thrill-seeker and a rebel. That isn't really how the character has been played on-screen. 

[Dobian]

Last week gave us the potential that Barbara and The Ogre could have been a couple, and I think, as a couple, they could have been fascinating. We could have had some fun with two twisted minds getting together and letting their “creativities” run wild, with perhaps Barbara becoming a willing but unlikely sidekick. Perhaps, at this point, Barbara could have pretended to be a damsel just as a ruse to get Jim to try to “save” her, only for Jim to realize he's the one in peril. From here, it might have even allowed The Ogre a chance to escape, in one of those rare moments where a villain gets away and it actually makes sense.

 

I felt the same way.  Barbara gave this mischeivous smile when she saw Ogre's murder room, and I saw wild developments coming from that.  But then this week comes and she's just the damsel in distress.  When she had to name a victim I got the crazy idea she was going to name Leslie and thought, oh nooooooo.  I know it's inevitable that Jim's relationship with Leslie is doomed and he will be back with Babs again, but I don't want her to die, which seems about the only way Jim will get back with Babs because he'd be out of his mind to do it on his own volition.

[MisterGlass]

 

I thought fainting was such a reasonable response to finding out the guy had murdered ten other women that it took me a second to connect it with the drugged water.

 

I thought the same thing.  I thought this is the moment where Barbara is shocked into either going over to his side or planning some way of saving herself.  She told Selina that her beauty could be a weapon, and this guy had already admitted his affection for her, so this was her chance, and...no.

[Camera One]

This episode had a lot of violent and graphic stuff that turns me off.  I'm not a big fan of gore, and it took the fun out of the episode for me.

 

Overall, though, this was a big letdown from last week.  The whole Ogre/Barbara thing ended up being fairly pointless.  I didn't want Barbara to become evil, and I didn't expect her to become Ultimate Fighting Machine, but as many as said, they did exactly what they've done before... put her into a solely damsel in distress role.  She could have been a random guest character and it would have made no difference.  The writers didn't let her exhibit much intelligence, though they didn't let Gordon or Harvey exhibit much intelligence either.  Jim is going to Penguin for a favor again?  Give it a rest.  Build some new connections.  

 

Bruce finding nothing was another letdown.  Yes, it would have been too easy, but it's past due that he gets another clue.  I like the whole psychological issues they're giving Bruce with his father, though.  I hope that he takes Lucius Fox's words to heart and start being less obvious in his investigation.  I didn't like the look of Lucius Fox, but hopefully the actor will grow on me.

 

The gang warfare is kinda of snore.  I feel like I've watched this already this season. 

 

It's the penultimate episode this season, but the show still felt like it was spinning its wheels.

[maczero]

Any thoughts on what Bullock witnessed at the sex club that made him lose his shit?  I thought I heard a pig squeal and a chainsaw.

[Danielg342]

Maybe a “live” serving of pork?

[jhlipton]

Here's another problem with Babs and The Ogre (coming this fall to Spike!):  The Ogre tells Barbara that "she's the one; he's never felt like this before", even after she starts acting like every other woman he's met.  So we see this Great Attraction in the previous episode, and it falls to pieces in this one.  Moreover, we keep hearing that Barbara is "self-destructive" -- mightn't she then tried to see how far she could push the Ogre?  So many little ways we could have explored Barbara's mind and outlook that were squandered on yet another stock BDSM set-up.  
 
When Jim and Harvey got to the 'rents house, Barbara should have showed some emotion -- happiness to see him, regret at the death of her parents, glee at the death of her parents, something.  Anything.  Whatever drug she had taken should have worn off by then.  Instead we just get this blank face.  Just boring.
 

So there's a big old bright sign that says 'Royal' above the city and that girl couldn't figure out that was where she'd been?

 
 Well, she is just a whore -- what do you expect?

==========================================================
 
It's clear from the lack of nutmeg that Nygma doesn't have an Elementary knowledge of body disposal liquids...

Edited May 1, 2015 by jhlipton

[Shanna]

I think Barbara's blank face was related to shock.

And as for the ogre thinking Barbara is the one, he seems to think that about everyone. Until e doesn't. Her background with Jim bumped her up and I think sicking him on her parents would probably have bought her even more time by convincing him she was different. But eventually she would either adapt or he would lose it again because it seems to be a compulsion for him...

[ratgirlagogo]

 

I think Barbara's blank face was related to shock.

Yes, I thought this too.  I also think that now that she played a role in the murder of  her parents (as awful as they were - seriously, they were never presented as anything other than cold withholding wire-mesh parents who did a number on their daughter) that she will spiral even further downward into guilt, shame and self-loathing, probably some kind of full-on breakdown.    So where is she now? Arkham?

 

In general I don't think the characterization problems on this show are limited to the women.  There are a SHITLOAD of characters to start with and Gotham really races through its storylines.  Barbara is the main problem and clearly the writers have tried to make up the difference in the second half of the season.  I don't know,  this show is all over the place, way too much so.

Edited May 1, 2015 by ratgirlagogo

[Chaos Theory]

Barbara chosing her parents had nothing to do with good and evil. I thing a chance got presented to get and she took it. A part of her, that deep dark part of her, wanted them dead...and she took it. That blank stare was the moment she realized she was getting what she wanted and felt nothing.

As for the overall writing of Barbara it has been inconsistent but the later half of the season has gotten better. I think there is room for improvement. I am not hating the way Barbara's character is heading.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Danielg342]

In general I don't think the characterization problems on this show are limited to the women. There are a SHITLOAD of characters to start with and Gotham really races through its storylines. Barbara is the main problem and clearly the writers have tried to make up the difference in the second half of the season. I don't know, this show is all over the place, way too much so.

I've always held that Gotham could have been several series in one. We could have had:

-The police procedural we have now

-Bruce's rise to becoming Batman

-The gang rivalry

-The story of Gotham's streets

-The corruption at City Hall

-A personal story or two to highlight Gotham's “high life”

-Personal stories for Oswald, Edward Nygma, the Joker and all of the other iconic villains of the Batman universe

I'm sure there could more or other ideas could be melded together but I'd have to agree that there are a lot of storylines that are being glossed over. I mean, I understand logistics- FOX likely wasn't going to commission two or three series at once- but I do think the show could have made better choices. It should have rested on four or five characters being the “primary” ones and fit each into two different storylines, with everyone else just being supporting characters (my choices would the detective side with Jim and Harvey and the gang side with Maroni and Falcone). Other characters could eventually “emerge”, like Oswald or Edward Nygma, but they'd have to wait until the series progresses, because this early on, not everyone can be a “player”.

[jhlipton]

And as for the ogre thinking Barbara is the one, he seems to think that about everyone. Until e doesn't. Her background with Jim bumped her up and I think sicking him on her parents would probably have bought her even more time by convincing him she was different. But eventually she would either adapt or he would lose it again because it seems to be a compulsion for him...

 

I might have to glance at "Beasts of Prey" again, but I don't recall him gushing over Grace Fairchild anywhere near as much as he did over Barbara.  it easily be I'm over-thinking it, and it's moot at this point anyway.

 

(For a guy who liked casual sex -- what better way to pick a life partner? -- his victims seemed over-dressed in the photos.)

[Shanna]

We spent more time with Barbara because she is a main character, but that 'morning after' scene started almost the same way with the other girl. And he kept her for weeks trying to make her be perfect. I don't remember exactly what was said but I think they showed enough similarities to show that this is his pattern.

But Barbara was different, first because of jim, and then when she gave her I'm all alone and nobody loves me speech I think he started to see a potential kindred spirit. Which may be why she got the offer to kill somebody else which was new (I'm guessing). And when she took him up on it, and picked her parents that has to appeal to him since he killed his mother figure. So it just encourages his delusions.

Barbara chosing her parents had nothing to do with good and evil. I thing a chance got presented to get and she took it. [snipped]

As for the overall writing of Barbara it has been inconsistent but the later half of the season has gotten better. I think there is room for improvement. I am not hating the way Barbara's character is heading.

I think she saw the knife and heard the threat and was told basically 'choose now who should die' and her first thought was her parents so she just said it. At least that's how I see it going down. Now I think she so traumatized and in shock it's hard to tell how she feels.

I do agree with you that the writing has been better for Barbara lately, at least I've enjoyed her more. But I always liked the actress, they just had her character do thinks I don't like. But now I feel like I get that she's a mess. And that works for me.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Shanna

[Slovenly Muse]

I think the fact that there is SO MUCH guesswork here about Barbara's motivations, reactions and feelings... all this speculation is a testament to how under-served her story has been. When your audience is working harder than your writers to explain what a character is likely feeling and why they've done what they've done, you have a major problem.

[Commando Cody]

When they were in Penguin's bar and someone stood up in front of the umbrella, did it remind anyone, other than me, of bat wings?

[raven]

What awful thing did Barbara's parents do to her to make her choose them?  I honestly don't remember.  Never mind the poor butler who just got in the way.

 

I don't know if Barbara's story is over; this could be her tipping point to more, crazier things.  How does someone get over the fact that they ordered their parents' deaths and stood passively by while it happened?  Could be the show is deliberately leaving us guessing, thought the whole Point A of choosing to Point B of getting there and doing the killing seemed a little off.  And where is she now?  Hospital, back at her apartment?  We cut from her seeing Jim to Jim back with Leslie.  Maybe I missed something. 

 

 

Bruce finding nothing was another letdown.  Yes, it would have been too easy, but it's past due that he gets another clue.

I was OK with this; he's still a kid after all; the company has been controlling and manipulating various adults for some time, it would be a bit much if Bruce were to easily infiltrate them at this stage.  I did like him meeting Lucius Fox and hope he remembers what Fox said about his father.  I assume his father was quietly going along but working against the corruptness (I don't know the comic details, just the movies). 

 

FWIW I don't think Bruce threw Selena under the bus - she DID kill the guy.  Bruce is too honest (right now) to phrase it any other way; though if it had been anyone else but Alfred, he would probably have tried to protect her.  He knows he can trust Alfred with that information. 

 

I do agree that Oswald gets away with his murders a littel too easily, assuming he gets away with the flower delivery man.  I figured the guy was one of Maroni's goons rather than from a flower shop where they would surely have a record of his last delivery stop.  Still, right in the hallway with blood everywhere, not very subtle, and if he was from Maroni's circle then he'll be missed anyway.  I mean we get it, Oswald is unstable and violent. 

 

I wish they had put off Nygma's violence until next season.  I sort of liked his creepy quirkiness and this ep was already crammed with stuff.  He was also very lucky to stab and drag without anyone noticing, then dismember and dispose right where he works!  Gotham's chamber of commerce tagline should be "murder and cover up made easy for you!"

Edited May 4, 2015 by raven

[Danielg342]

I mean we get it, Oswald is unstable and violent.

That's the problem I have with Oswald- he shouldn't be unstable at this point. Early on, yeah, he can be reckless because he's just learning, but by now he should be past all that. This guy is supposed to become one of Gotham's kingpins, and, to do that, he can't be reckless- he has to be able to control himself when the time comes. At his core, he can still be a character who “shoots first and asks questions later”, but I do think he has to think about those questions and pick his spots better.

[Actionmage]

I think the term "strong female character" can get mischaracterized sometimes -- I don't need a strong female character in the sense of a physically strong woman who crushes everything in her path, but what I do need is a female character whose *characterization* is strong.  That's where Barbara really fails for me.

 

What adjectives might one use to describe her? The best I can come up with are "needy," "broken" and "foolish."

 

I didn't want Barbara to become evil, and I didn't expect her to become Ultimate Fighting Machine, but as many as said, they did exactly what they've done before... put her into a solely damsel in distress role.

 

So, if I am understanding things, there are to only be heroic women, criminal females and crime victims? That only traditionally strong women need to be shown? Barbara showed her inner vibranium core by figuring out how to survive Jason and his psychopathy with a big assist from Jim and Harvey. The argument about 'she's a fictional character' argument has been stated, but yeah, since TV  tends to be Fiction Central, why watch a show about pretend people if we aren't meant to care in some way about them?

 

 

I don't know if Barbara's story is over; this could be her tipping point to more, crazier things.

 

Which is almost exactly what my husband said. They spent all of the season breaking Barbara down until she is, last seen, thisclose to cataonic and mute. Unless the writers are super-misogynists, Barbara is in a space to be stronger. We just don't know what she's going to put that strength towards. That's part of why I tune in- to see how folks deal and move forward.

 

 

 

Well, she is just a whore -- what do you expect?

 

"whore" =/= automatically a mentally deficient human.  Yes, it was bad writing. Still?  It was apparently a portion of town that she didn't frequent often. That or the sign is so much background "white noise" that it didn't occur to her. If Jason was cutting on me though, I don't think I'd want to search out where that dangerous, scary, blade-wielding, obviously monied dude lived. Triply so if I was just a regular sex worker. As she noted, no one took her case seriously, because [sarcasm font] everyone knows hookers can't have crime happen to them.[/sarcasm font]

[Kel Varnsen]

I thought the person Barbara would tell the Ogre to kill was Falcone...that would have been a great tie-in to an earlier episode.  

 

Not that I expected it to happen but it would have been cool if she had told Ogre to kill Victor Zsasaz. She was really traumatized with him kidnapping her, and either way someone would be killed.

 

Also maybe it is just me but it would have been kind of funny if after Barbara drank the spiked water, it had no effect on her thanks to her super high alcohol tolerance.

[John Potts]

I was disappointed in Barbara this episode. I did wonder if she was going to name Victor Zzazz (The last guy to threaten her life!) - hell, even play up that angle to goad the Ogre ("I'm sure you're far more a man than he is - he needs Don Falcone's permission to kill anyone"). Even a turn to the dark side and going all "Bonnie & Clyde" (or Natural Born Killers) with the Ogre would be a possible direction they could have gone (and presumably then returned to the light after she's rescued). I guess since the "Boy Hostage" is yet to be born they need a character to play the Damsel in Distress!

 

This is spec rather than an actual spoiler, but as it's based on Bat-Lore I'm spoilering it:

What if Barbara is now pregnant with Baby Babs (Batgirl to be) and Jim marries her to claim the child as his? It'd probably mean Lee would have to be bumped
off sooner rather than later, but since she's not fated to end up with Jim, her ticket's already punched (probably)

 

Slightly surprised that Harvey can't stomach seeing (presumably) a donkey show - guess he's not as hard boiled as he makes himself out to be.

 

Slovenly Muse Some would call it EXCRUCIATINGLY lazy writing, but I call it considerate villainy!

 

To be fair, Batman would frequently find some minor clue and make some wild inferences from it that were unerringly accurate and allowed him to crack the case. So it's traditional as well as considerate villainy!

 

thuganomics85  I get getting rid of the body, but was lugging the body parts to the crime lab, the only option available?

 

I assume the GCPD has standard policies for dealing with unclaimed bodies, so that might actually be a good way to dispose of the evidence. Of course, he was remarkably lucky that Lee didn't walk in (since it's her lab!) and that nobody asked him about the cases he was lugging! Did like the touch that Edward's fake note spelled out his name - that was a nice piece of foreshadowing of the Riddler's MO.