S05.E03: High Sparrow

[Mya Stone]

Episode Synopsis: Cersei meets the High Sparrow after learning of a clergyman's embarrassing tale. Meanwhile, Davos talks to Jon about the future of Winterfell, where Ramsay Snow has just learned the identity of his future bride; Arya grows impatient doing menial tasks in the House of Black and White; and Tyrion searches for more comfortable surroundings on a long trip with Varys.

 

Reminder: There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into a potential spoiler you should leave now. Book Talk assumes you have read all the books to date. Any information from unpublished books, such as preview chapters should be in spoiler tags.

[Mya Stone]

My few thoughts:

As this is an adaption, and they have to cut corners, I understand placing Sansa, an actual Stark, in fArya's place. Show!LF is not Book!LF. I think they did a good job explaining Roose's thoughts as to why they needed her.

With that being said, I will withhold judgement on the storyline until it plays out. She may not undergo the travesties that Jeyne did. We shall see.

I did absolutely love "Welcome home, Lady Stark. The North Remembers." Chills. Utter chills.

More Stone Men references. Hmm.

Loved all of the Wall stuff this week. Bye bye, Slynt.

[WatchrTina]

Well, first impressions . . . The thought of Sansa and Ramsey makes me positively ill.  Seriously.  I stopped enjoying the show when that turn of events occurred.

[InsertWordHere]

In general, I don't mind book changes. I consider myself fairly easygoing and realize they can't include every character. That said, Sansa and Ramsay? No, no, a thousand times no. Kill it with fire. Actually, kill him with fire.   

[WearyTraveler]

I thought KH did a splendid job on this one. And I also enjoyed the subtext in all of Cersei and Margaery's interactions.

How many people do you think will mistake Jorah's "I'm taking you to the Queen" for Cersei?

[elzin]

NONONONONONONONONO

 

I had heard rumors. I had hoped they were wrong. I cannot watch Sansa be Jeyne/Arya. Nope.

 

I would have enjoyed the episode FOR THE MOST PART had it just not gone there.  It makes me so angry I just broke my ear buds.  I yelled so loud at the tv I nearly woke my kid.

 

I think the thing that sent me off the deep end the most was the "The North Remembers."

 

Fuck you, D&D. Don't drop like EVERY bit of that and then throw it in as a bone? I'm not appeased with that reference when you butcher the books.... and potentially are literally going to butcher Sansa. NO to the Nopest nope.

[MarquisDeCarabas]

Well that's certainly different.  I suppose it helps increasing the impetus of Jon needing to do something given that it's real Stark as opposed to a fake one.

 

Question:  Has anyone heard of that God that Arya mentioned the Wayward Face before?

[ToniG]

Why does the High Sparrow look familiar?

Heh. He'll always be the Infiniti guy to me.

Great episode, things are finally moving from the two set-up episodes. Buckle up-it's going to be a hell of a ride!

[SimoneS]

 Oops, wrong thread.

Edited April 27, 2015 by SimoneS

[nksarmi]

Ok help me - did Margaery and Tommen consummate their marriage in the books?  I want to say he's too young.

 

Oh and show please stop making Cersei look nice and rational - you are going to ruin my enjoyment of her downfall.

[Tara Ariano]

Nick's post on the episode:

 

Brothel, Can You Sparrow A Dime? Westeros's houses of ill repute are dangerous places to be these days.

[SFoster21]

Did the lighting budget get cut? The entire show was shot in the dark!

[WearyTraveler]

I want to add that I don't think Sansa will get the Jeyne treatment.  It seemed very clear to me that Roose will not let Ramsay torture her, and that even Ramsay knows he can't mess with Sansa because she's his gateway to holding the North's loyalty.

 

I do think Sansa might witness some bad shit go down with Myranda, who acted incredibly miffed at Ramsay's betrothal.  This might be what prompts Theon into action.

 

I also got chills with "The North remembers".  I think the show might do all right for this storyline, after all, even without Jeyne or Frey pie!  (I don't know if they'll have Frey pie or not, just saying in case they don't.  It's one of those details that while awesome in the books might not make it to the show)

Ok help me - did Margaery and Tommen consummate their marriage in the books?  I want to say he's too young.

 

No, they didn't.  In the books Tommen is still playing with his kittens

[Spartan Girl]

I'm still hoping that this whole plot with Sansa will at least let her get revenge on the people that killed her family. Think about it: Sansa's wedding could give us another Red Wedding....

Or maybe that's just wishful thinking.

Speaking of wishful thinking and diverting from the books, hurry up and get Tyrion and Jorah to Dany!

[WearyTraveler]

I'm still hoping that this whole plot with Sansa will at least let her get revenge on the people that killed her family. Think about it: Sansa's wedding could give us another Red Wedding....

 

I think they're heading to something like that, too.  After all, it was Sansa's choice to go, intent on taking her revenge for her family.  I don't think the show is setting her up to be a victim.  Not with that dialog she had with LF overlooking MC.  I think she has a plan.  Also, wouldn't LF leave some Vale guards with her if he leaves? (Those falcons on their shields as they went through the gate were very prominent)

I think those might give Ramsay pause.

Edited April 27, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[WatchrTina]

 

Sansa's wedding could give us another Red Wedding....

I foresee the birth of a a new saying:  "A Stark wedding without at least 3 deaths is considered a very dull affair."

[MarquisDeCarabas]

I just want to say the sass Margery gave Cersei was great.  I could get you some wine, it's a bit early for us.  Heeee.

 

They also seem to be streamlining the High sparrow storyline a bit, it's looking like Cersei puts him in power for which I'm sure he'll be ever so grateful, and will not backfire in anyway whatsoever.

[Shanna]

I did absolutely love "Welcome home, Lady Stark. The North Remembers." Chills.

This is the only thing that gave me hope for this storyline. If this show puts Sansa in the kinds if situations Jeyne was in I am not sure that I can watch. If they, on the other hand, keep the offing random boltons and Frey pie kind of stuff (and hopefully Ramsey can die a horrible death) then I can maybe go with it. But the show is most definitely on notice about this change.

But yes, the north remembers and slynt and more jacquen in the same episode? Win.

Also arya cried. Awwww. I love arya.

[Winnief]

2 minutes ago

 

I want to add that I don't think Sansa will get the Jeyne treatment.  It seemed very clear to me that Roose will not let Ramsay torture her, and that even Ramsay knows he can't mess with Sansa because she's his gateway to holding the North's loyalty.

 

I do think Sansa might witness some bad shit go down with Myranda, who acted incredibly miffed at Ramsay's betrothal.  This might be what prompts Theon into action.

 

I also got chills with "The North remembers".  I think the show might do all right for this storyline, after all, even without Jeyne or Frey pie!  (I don't know if they'll have Frey pie or not, just saying in case they don't.  It's one of those details that while awesome in the books might not make it to the show)

 

Big Fat WORD to your whole post.  I'm hoping and praying that Sansa doesn't get full Jeyne treatment for all the reasons you mentioned, (and ShowRamsay is a LOT smarter than BookRamsay making it a lot easier to believe he's survived so long without 'falling down the stairs,) and that if Sansa gets to be part of the Great Northern Conspiracy I will swoon.  I also think Sophie and Alfie will be magic together.

 

And one good thing-this really does set up a Sansa/Jon meeting for Season 6. 

 

I must say I am already enjoying Jon as Lord Commander and his dynamic with Stannis and Davos...especially since Davos raised a perfectly good point about the Boltons being disastrous for the North, and Jon's going to be especially concerned when he hears about Sansa.  He might feel that revenge can't bring his loved ones back so no breaking neutrality, but if his 'sister' is still alive then he must rescue her.  Though, I think Brienne and/or Theon will be on that job.

 

Johnathon Pryce is killing it as the High Sparrow.

 

King Tommen is living the dream!  Sad to think his reign will be so short lived.  Sob.

[magdalene]

I was kind of squicked by the Tommen deflowering. He is so young.

 

Cersei's current maneuvering is not going to bite her in the ass, no, siree.

Edited April 27, 2015 by magdalene

[nksarmi]

I just want to say the sass Margery gave Cersei was great.  I could get you some wine, it's a bit early for us.  Heeee.

 

They also seem to be streamlining the High sparrow storyline a bit, it's looking like Cersei puts him in power for which I'm sure he'll be ever so grateful, and will not backfire in anyway whatsoever.

Is it wrong that I'm actually getting impatient with this story lol?  I want the walk of shame damn it.

[benteen]

Really good episode for the second straight week.  It started off slow but picked up strongly as it went along.

 

Count me as concerned about the Ramsay/Sansa marriage.  I really hope it doesn't go there even though I'm glad to have Sansa in Winterfell (though I wish she were still in disguise).  That woman saying "The North remembers" was awesome.  That's the second week in a row that the writers remembered that so there's hope on that front.  Also was amused at Roose reading all the mail.  Hey, that's the closet thing to internet spoilers as you're going to get in the Seven Kingdoms!

 

The Wall scene have been excellent and Jon's storyline has been great thus far.  It's brought out the best in Stannis and him and Jon work well off each other.  Interesting that he's the one who brings up having Jon deal with the Wildlings.  I was hoping Jon would tell him about the Northern Mountain clans in return.  Glad to FINALLY get a scene between Jon and Davos...I found that a missed opportunity in A Dance with Dragons.

 

While I think the scene played a little better in the book, I still enjoyed Jon's executive of Slynt.  Aemon being sick makes me think he's not going to leave the Wall.  Liked Jon appointing Ser Alliser as First Ranger (complete with favorable reaction from the Night's Watch) and him stepping aside when they came after Slynt.  I really like what they're doing with Alliser and his show counterpart is far better and more dimensional than his book counterpart.

 

Finally a really good scene with Brienne and Pod, which incorporated some of her backstory from the books.  It looks like Brienne is really on a collision course with Stannis...just as Stannis is finally getting more favorable treatment on this show.  Wish we'd gotten a namedrop of the Crannogmen as a reason they were going to go around Moat Cailin.  Of course, you CAN'T go around there in the books.  That's the whole point of having it there.

 

Maegarey is really poking the Lion, which was fun to see although I'm not a fan of trying to make Cersei seem more sympathetic.  Though I'm pleased that the High Sparrow alliance will blow up in her face.  Jonathan Pryce was fantastic tonight and it's easy to see why anyone would be so taken with the character.  Being a religious fanatic suits Lancel well.

 

Enjoyed Arya's storyline.  Absolutely beautiful shot of her looking out into the sea while holding Needle.  I laughed when she immediately dropped the c-bomb when the Waif his her.

 

Nice look at Volantis.  Enjoyed hearing the female priest talk about the Lord of Light...also couldn't help but notice another mention of the Stone Men, which makes me think we'll see some kind of version of that scene.  I think Peter Dinklage and Iain Glenn will fair a lot better on the show than Tyrion and Jorah did in the book as far as chemistry goes.

Edited April 27, 2015 by benteen

[some1105]

After all the talk with Stannis, Jon walking out to take Slynt's head was such a bizarrely lovely call back to the first episode, and I just thought--this is how you be Jon Stark.  Not by taking Winterfell, but by being the man that Ned raised.  I haven't gotten this choked up over an episode in a bit.

[CherryMalotte]

I get it.  It's a series based on books, there's no way in the seven hells that they could follow the books within a whisker of a storyline, it would still be showing 30 years from now.  I love this series, I love everything about it, I live in anticipation of the dvds and watch each episode a dozen times.  I really loved seeing Slynt get beheaded by Lord Commander Jon, and the little 'fuck you' look of contempt that Thorne gave Slynt.  Excellent!  

 

That being said...I am so so so hating the Sansa and Ramsay storyline.  I honestly don't know how it would make sense, does she have to get an annulment from the High Sparrow?  Do they think Cersei isn't going to find out and kidnap her back to King's Landing?  Maybe I'm dithering in the details but I sure hope this works out to some satisfaction for all of us.  

 

Oh well.  A woman always has a particular No One to keep them occupied.       

[Mya Stone]

Two other thoughts:

Anyone else look around for DarkWillow and wonder if Warren was one of the flayed?

and

Brienne again mentioned the shadow had Stannis's face. I can't help but think that this is a heavily telegraphed storyline, and Brienne will come up against Stannis.

[Avaleigh]

Margaery (to Tommen): We're going to be very happy you and I.

Margaery, little dove, I don't think you've been paying attention.

[Mya Stone]

Crap. Last thing. Really.

Slynt's last line was how he had always been afraid. My unspoiled sister said, "That's the WORST thing to say to a Stark. They eat Fearios for breakfast. What a coward."

[benteen]

EW had an article explaining the decision to put Sansa in Winterfell.  Show-wise, I do think it makes a lot of sense.  My concern is if Sansa get the same treatment that Jeyne got in the books.  Otherwise to me, it makes sense.  Although I liked the idea of Theon risking his neck for a girl he barely knew.  But him risking his neck for Sansa (which I assume happens) fits for the show version.  But again, I do NOT want Sansa to get the Jeyne treatment.

[Black Knight]

That being said...I am so so so hating the Sansa and Ramsay storyline.  I honestly don't know how it would make sense, does she have to get an annulment from the High Sparrow?

 

They did cover that briefly in the Littlefinger/Roose conversation. Littlefinger told Roose about Tyrion and Sansa never consummating their marriage, and therefore she's no man's wife. I don't remember that being said in the books (although book LF must've had something like that in mind, since he did plan to marry Sansa to Harry the Heir), but that's what the show is going with.

 

I'm not as apprehensive as many about the Sansa/Ramsay storyline. I mean, yes, it does make me ill to think of her being married to one of the two men who would be worse than her previous betrothed (Gregor the Mountain is the second)...but I don't think it's going to get as far as Ramsay mistreating her. Either there's going to be another Red Wedding, or Brienne will swoop in with Theon's help. I haven't decided what I think is likelier, but one way or another I think it'll be the downfall of House Bolton and the revenge of the Starks and the North.

 

Hahahahaha on Tommen so sweetly asking Margaery if he'd hurt her. I don't think she was a virgin, sweet one. I'm going to feel bad when he inevitably dies.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Black Knight

[WearyTraveler]

That being said...I am so so so hating the Sansa and Ramsay storyline.  I honestly don't know how it would make sense, does she have to get an annulment from the High Sparrow?  Do they think Cersei isn't going to find out and kidnap her back to King's Landing?  Maybe I'm dithering in the details but I sure hope this works out to some satisfaction for all of us.  

 

I think LF and Roose's conversation covers all your questions here:

1) LF said that Sansa and Tyrion had not consummated their marriage and that "by the law of the land" they are not married at all because of this, he even asks Roose to have her checked, if he wants.  To which Roose replies he cares more about her name than her virtue. So the show is going with No Consummation = never married.

2) I think it's obvious that both, Roose and LF expect Cersei to find out, but as Roose said to Ramsay during their meal (pre-Sansa's arrival), the Lannisters have never sent their armies that far north, so, they probably don't expect them to do so now.  Going back to Roose and LF's convo, Roose asks LF why he's risking angering the Lannisters  (mainly Cersei) by bringing Sansa to him, when he (LF) got everything he did through the Lannisters. LF says everything is a gamble and that he has The Vale, pointing out that the last time the Vale and the North joined armies they toppled the Targs.  So, I think the message here is that they are expecting Cersei to find out, but that they are sure they will defeat her as Ned, Robert and the Arryns managed to defeat the Targs, who had been in power way longer than the Lannisters.

 

ETA: cross posted with Black Knight. Do I owe you a Coke or something?

Edited April 27, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Avaleigh]

I think my favorite scene was the one between Roose and Littlefinger. Roose is nobody's fool. Love that he made sure to read the correspondence going both ways.

 

Margaery can't stop with the digs. I'm surprised that she thinks Cersei is going to continue to smile and take it without finding someway of eventually paying her back. 

 

It's interesting to compare Jon and Dany's most recent kills. Both of them basically executed people who were disregarding their authority but with Dany there's a general sense that she's done something wrong while with Jon it feels heroic.

 

I didn't like seeing the High Septon whipped and paraded around in the streets. Tommen should have all of those religious fanatic sparrows sent to the Wall. 

 

I don't think Sansa is going to get the Jeyne treatment. I think she's going to witness Ramsay's horrible side though and that she'll be in fear for a time that he'll hurt her, and will eventually either run for it or have him killed before the marriage is consummated.  

Edited April 27, 2015 by Avaleigh

[benteen]

The show finally sees to be remembering that Stannis is great for unintentional humor.  Him telling Jon that he's as honorable as his father and saying it wasn't a compliment because honor got him killed or that bit about the person who said keep your enemies close didn't have many enemies.  Which reminds me, though they seem to be on better terms, I have a feeling keeping Ser Alliser close will turn out to be a mistake for Jon.

 

Speaking of humorous moments, Qyburn telling the High Septon that his name didn't matter was another one.  Even though I knew it was coming, I jumped a little in my seat when FrankenGregor stirred.

 

Pycelle defending the High Septon's whoring was another highlight too.

 

I didn't realize that the Red Priestess that Tyrion saw was Rila Fukushima from The Wolverine and Arrow.

Edited April 27, 2015 by benteen

[elzin]

Since now Jorah has Tyrion, that frees Varys up to scoot on back to Westeros for his appointments with Kevan and Pycelle.

[WearyTraveler]

Which reminds me, though they seem to be on better terms, I have a feeling keeping Ser Alliser close will turn out to be a mistake for Jon.

 

I think Ollie will be the one.  They did an interesting shot of his face when Jon said that many people in the NW weren't fond of the Wildlings.  It's also been twice in as many episodes where we get a budding relationship of mentor-mentee going on between Jon and Ollie, which would make it even more poignant when the stab is delivered.

Since now Jorah has Tyrion, that frees Varys up to scoot on back to Westeros for his appointments with Kevan and Pycelle.

 

That's what I was thinking too!

Edited April 27, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[benteen]

I think it will still be Olly too who does the deed but I think we'll still have a mutiny led by Thorne.  We'll see a good relationship between those two I believe and then it goes back to what it once was.  But yeah, they are teasing Olly this season.

[Avaleigh]

Two questions and a comment:

 

What was the last thing the red priestess said before turning to stare at Tyrion?

 

What gods did Arya say that she saw represented in the House of Black and White? I heard her acknowledge the seven, the drowned god, the lord of light, and I thought one other. 

 

Loved Pycelle being in support of the High Septon's brothel activities being overlooked. I thought that was a nice bit of continuity considering how offended Pycelle was when Cersei threw his own brothel behavior in his face. 

[loki567]

That would actually be some pretty good long-term plotting if it does turn out to be Ollie.

[Pete Martell]

I really wish they'd gone with the book version and had Margaery and Tommen not in any type of sexual relationship. Not only does it just further reduce Margaery, it also turns this story into some sort of awful fratboy leerfest that would not get the same type of "oh yeah!" reaction if the ages were switched. 

 

I'm so bothered by the whole Sansa story I can't even think about what the ending will be. I just hope this ends in Littlefinger's death. 

 

I get the whole poignancy element if Ollie kills Jon, but I wish they could have included Satin somewhere in the show. Then again, knowing D&D, he'd probably just spend his time asking the various men of the Night's Watch for dick.

[benteen]

A whore who can't have sex is as useless to D and D as a jock strap is to Theon.

Edited April 27, 2015 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

All I could think was 'What the hell, Lady Anne?' when Arya was getting smacked around by that woman in the House of Black and White. 

[Independent George]

I get the need to consolidate storylines, and sending Sansa to the north does accomplish that... but the politics of it just don't make a whole lot of sense. Its an act of open rebellion against the South, and the fact that the residual loyalty to Ned makes it even more confusing.

 

It would have made more sense if Littlefinger promised her to one of the surviving Karstarks as a means of ending the feud, or maybe one of the Umbers. Ramsay... it consolidates the storylines, but not in a way that makes sense to me right now. I'm not talking about it as a matter of book vs show, but purely in terms of show-only logic. Maybe it'll get better, but I'm just not seeing it. Sansa is much more valuable as a bargaining chip by getting the other Northern houses to unite against the Boltons, and then allying with the Eeyrie. 

Edited April 27, 2015 by Independent George

[GreyBunny]

Swapping Sansa for Jeyne and having Tommen consummate his marriage with Margaery is fine, but leaving out one of the most epic lines in the books:  "Edd, fetch me a block."  That's unconscionable.  

 

Shame on them.

[SeanC]

It seemed very clear to me that Roose will not let Ramsay torture her, and that even Ramsay knows he can't mess with Sansa because she's his gateway to holding the North's loyalty.

Roose also wanted him to stop torturing Jeyne in the books, but he didn't.  And having Ramsay say "I won't hurt her" right after Littlefinger admits he knows nothing about Ramsay is blatant foreshadowing that he's going to hurt her.

[Matt K]

I get the need to consolidate storylines, and sending Sansa to the north does accomplish that... but the politics of it just don't make a whole lot of sense. Its an act of open rebellion against the South, and the fact that the residual loyalty to Ned makes it even more confusing.

My guess if LF got all he could from the Lanisters and if the story goes where I think it will (i.e. dead Boltons) then he gets more power there and essentially a united North he has  a hand in.  Plus the Boltons must be having issues controlling the North so having an actual Stark is well worth it.  It's not like they really need to worry about the Lanisters.  Plus if they can't hold the North then the Lanisters are the least of their problems.

 

That said, while I haven't really read the books, from what I have read the Boltons knew of the fake from the start but here Sansa is the real Stark so she has all the power, they need her (where as the Fake was dependent on the Boltons for the ruse).

 

I think this'll lead to a more cunning Sansa which is nice as I'm sick of her just otherwise bouncing from monster to monster.  If this is being set up as her getting revenge, I'm all for it.

[Dev F]

Question:  Has anyone heard of that God that Arya mentioned the Wayward Face before?

 

The weirwood face. As in, the face on the weirwood trees that represents the Old Gods.

 

What gods did Arya say that she saw represented in the House of Black and White? I heard her acknowledge the seven, the drowned god, the lord of light, and I thought one other. 

 

She mentioned the Stranger, the Drowned God, and the weirwood face. I don't think she mentioned the Lord of Light, although its burning heart is definitely one of the effigies we see.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Dev F

[WatchrTina]

 

I want to add that I don't think Sansa will get the Jeyne treatment.

I hope you are right but that line about examining her to prove her virginity and Roose saying he "leaves that to the brothel master" gave me pause.

 

 

Wish we'd gotten a namedrop of the Crannogmen as a reason they were going to go around Moat Cailin.  Of course, you CAN'T go around there in the books.  That's the whole point of having it there.

You can get to the North without crossing Moat Callain, you just have to do it by boat.

[Knuckles]

The lingering shot of the line-up of Ramsay's women, with Myranda looking none too pleased at Sansa's arrival, suggests it's not just Ramsay that Sansa needs to beware...Myranda is herself one scary psycho. Sansa's decision to smile and be gracious to Ramsay made me hope that she will not be a victim...but she is up against a man even worse than Joffrey.

Loved Jon at the Wall, and his interplay with Stannis...and was so happy he executed that miserable Slynt. Even Thorne gave up his homie. 

[Paws]

Arya was referring to the Weirwood....the tree with a face, like they had at winterfell

I love the grudging respect Jon and Thorne have for each other (for now). They are each other's best enemy.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Paws

[kieyra]

I didn't blink at the Tommen/Maergary consummation, but maybe I've read too much Wars of the Roses/Tudor history. If you were wed and allowed to live with your spouse, it was so you could start getting heirs. I understand it's objectionable to modern eyes, but it seems weirder to me if GRRM left it out of the books. But I also don't remember if Tommen had ever made it out of boyhood by the time I gave up on the books.

[loki567]

A change I do like, Cersei seems to be trying to set up the Sparrows as her shock troops to maintain power. Unlike the books where it's basically Cersei lets a militant religious group arm itself because she's a moron. It's fits Show!Cersei who always comes off as a craftier character than her book counterpart.