S03.E13: March 8, 1983

[Umbelina]

It's also kind of interesting to me that the end result of Analiese's (unwilling) sacrifice was to keep weapons out of the hands of Islamic Fundamentalists that the USA was trying hard to arm.

 

There is plenty of blood on the hands of USA "fanatically loyal" spies as well.  Actually, if they were disloyal, would we hate them more?  Philip, in that instance would be the bad guy, and Elizabeth the red, white, and blue hero.  Winners write the history.

[JennyMominFL]

I'll have to watch again, but the establishing shot just before the grandmother scene looked much more like Russia than Germany.

If, as some have speculated here, the order to keep Stan on came straight from the top, out of "frustration with red tape", I'm wondering if that's the writers' little wink at the future Iran-Contra scandal?

The gave the location at the begining as Kreuzberg, which was a part of west Berlin. There was never any  indication they went anywhere else. I would have thought they would have shown the location again , if they did. What is interesting is the Berlin Wall did not enclose East Berlin, it enclosed West Berlin as Berlin is an island inside of East Germany  

Edited April 23, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[ahpny]

If Pastor Tim is killed, then I doubt Paige will be told that her parent's boss did it. More than likely it would be a car accident, heart attack, accidental electrocution, animal attack, etc. She can suspect, but she can't know that he was taken out because of what she told him.

 

True, but when Paige confronts her parents about whether they had anything to do with this, or knew about it in advance, and they again lie to her face, she will not believe them and the wedge between her and them will grow wider.

Either way, I'm not sure that killing him can be a solution here, because it would totally destroy Paige and then they have an even bigger problem.

 

Indeed. She may then suspect that their list of crimes includes murder, not merely “gathering information.” Anything happening to Pastor Tim poses a high risk that Paige will walk next door and spill her guts to Stan.

 

I’m not sure what to make of the exact content of Paige’s tearful telephonic meltdown to Paster Tim. Yes, as far as we heard, she never literally said her parents are spies, or doing anything illegal, or against the interests of this country, but we didn’t hear the whole conversation, or even the whole half that Paige contributed. All she really said – that we heard – was they were “lying Russians.” That leaves the writers several options. How seriously would Paster Tim interpret these comments from a troubled, emotional 15 year old girl who was admittedly losing it anyway?

 

Regarding the “Martha is dead” speculation. Why would Philip have offed the IT guy if he had already killed Martha, or was planning to kill Martha? He killed the IT guy for Martha’s benefit (or at least for his own benefit of continued receipt of intel from her). However, Elizabeth correctly points out that IT guy’s death isn’t likely to calm Martha down much and disclosure of it to her needs careful handling.

 

And Elizabeth, so finely tuned and skilled at reading and manipulating the emotions of her marks is blind to the blatantly expressed feelings of her own daughter as well as Philip, who’s falling apart before her eyes. Maybe the meeting with her mother scrambled too many brain cells. Nothing else makes much sense.

 

Also, what is Nina trying to accomplish at this point? Isn’t the scientist guy doing exactly what they want already, quite assiduously, though cheerlessly? What more is she supposed to do exactly and how does her end of the bargain get fulfilled?

[RedheadZombie]

Paige is 15 BTW.

 

Not in the first season.

[Chaos Theory]

f Pastor Tim is killed, then I doubt Paige will be told that her parent's boss did it.

 

 

There is more then one way to kill a person.    P&E can't outright murder him but they are clever little spies.  They can figure out a way to get rid of him.   OR they can you know....put the fear of God into Paige........

[txhorns79]

I can and do condemn her. Her decision to value her own sense of What Is Right above the safety of the two people who brought her up, without talking to them at any length about it, is selfish in the extreme. Paige doesn't know what we know re Elizabeth's murders etc.

 

I would say it is pretty selfish to use your children as props in what has been a decades long spying mission.  I would also say it is pretty selfish to engage in activities that put your children in real physical danger.  I can't blame Paige for how she is acting.  She's been betrayed by the two people who are supposed to love and protect her.  She's found out that nearly everything she has been told about her parents is a lie.  At best, that would be devastating.         

[John S]

There is more then one way to kill a person.    P&E can't outright murder him but they are clever little spies.  They can figure out a way to get rid of him.   OR they can you know....put the fear of God into Paige........

By doing what - threatening to kill her, threatening to beat the crap out of her, threatening to ship her off to Russia?

How would that improve the broken relationship that they have with their distraught daughter?

[OrientalAmish]

I am going to miss my weekly dose of Matthew Rhys + Keri Russell....

 

Apparently, they been dating IRL as well?

[Umbelina]

I kind of wish I spoke German right now.  I randomly googled "Kreuzberg in 1983" and a ton of stuff comes up, most in German, including this interesting map.  Also a bunch about squatters, riots, revolts, and movies/book plots, as well as a lot of images if you click for those.  Apparently an interesting place, but Google translate only goes so far. 

 

I think there will be repercussions from the Kremlin about Philip and Elizabeth going this far off book.  It was dangerous, and idiotic, and forced the KGB to do something equally dangerous, getting her mother there so Elizabeth would go home.  I'm thinking they are PISSED.

 

[Former Nun]

I am exactly Paige's age, young children being left alone in the middle of night was not even close to the norm in the 80s .

 

 

I think it was very much the norm.  I was in my 40s in the 80s and my children were young teens.  My friends and I did leave our reliable children "alone" at night (Paige is 15) and some of our teenagers babysat "alone at night" at the age of 15.  We didn't have mobile phones where we were all in touch 24/7.  We relied on luck, I guess.

[Couch Sweet Potato]

 

Didn't he (Stan) suspect them (the Jennings) of something in the very first episode? I thought he was sneaking around - or was that Phillip or Elizabeth? 

Yes, Stan's instincts are well-defined. He suspected something was weird about the Jennings' garage and he was right - there was a kidnapping victim in the trunk. Later, he subconsciously suspected Martha of stealing mail off the robot, but hasn't yet realized he knows that, too.

 

I think he knows that the Jennings aren't right, but he's in denial.

[Dev F]

Yes. I do not see The Greatness of Paige. I see a little girl who's gone off the deep end with religion, with an acquaintance that she's known what, a year? favoring him instead of her parents...

 

It's funny -- I was the guy arguing in an earlier thread that it made sense if Paige were the sort of person who would never think of turning in her own parents, and now I'm just as willing to argue that it makes sense for her to be the sort of person who would turn them in. But I don't think it's a contradiction; both are entirely coherent moral points of view.

 

As I said in that other thread, my moral code is such that I absolutely would turn in my parents if I found out they did something awful, and I'd expect them to do the same to me. I was raised to believe that right is right and wrong is wrong, and personal relationships don't change that. In that sense, it's hardly selfish to think that someone should be held to account for their actions even if you happen to be personally close to them. And yet I know other people who absolutely would not turn in their own family members no matter how terribly they behaved, because the law is just an arbitrary construct and loyalty to family is a truer and more meaningful currency.

 

Paige's dilemma in the back half of this season was essentially a battle between those two moral perspectives. And while we the viewers may ultimately agree or disagree with the side she came down on, it's reductive to suggest that it's based on selfishness or blind dogmatism and not a genuine commitment to meaningful principles like honesty and decency.

[Helena Dax]

I never understood Stan's plan or why Oleg was agreeing to help him. It was pretty clear to me that Stan wouldn't be the one deciding which agent were going to exchange for the "defector". And Oleg was risking a lot because it was possible Stan was trying to compromise him -as it happened-. 

 

I thought Paige would keep the secret a bit longer, but not surprised either. It just didn't make any sense. There was no way Paige was going to become an asset. The Centre should have tried to know her better before trying to recruit her. 

 

Poor Philip, he can't really live with himself anymore. And Elizabeth is even more determined to keep fighting. They love each other, but this difference might be their ending. Unless they understand (especially Elizabeth; Philip already gets it) that the fact that Paige told Pastor Tim about them means she won't work for the KGB so she's in  mortal danger. The KGB isn't going to let her live her life if she refuses to help them. She knows too much. Protecting her could be the reason Philip and Elizabeth could end up defecting.

 

Why is Noah Emmerich the only one whose name isn't written in cyrilic letter  before changing to latin alphabet?

[JennyMominFL]

I kind of wish I spoke German right now.  I randomly googled "Kreuzberg in 1983" and a ton of stuff comes up, most in German, including this interesting map.  Also a bunch about squatters, riots, revolts, and movies/book plots, as well as a lot of images if you click for those.  Apparently an interesting place, but Google translate only goes so far. 

 

I think there will be repercussions from the Kremlin about Philip and Elizabeth going this far off book.  It was dangerous, and idiotic, and forced the KGB to do something equally dangerous, getting her mother there so Elizabeth would go home.  I'm thinking they are PISSED.

 

Kreuzberg was in a weird position in West Berlin. It's sort of in the corner, surrounded by wall on three sides. As a result it was a somewhat poor area and was filled with arts and  um, unusual people. Now that the wall is down it is right in central Berlin. In the mitte. My hotel was in kreuzberg but it was right in No mans land, literally. It was the space between the inner and outer wall where barbed  wire and   towers once were. It's now a beautiful, popular area. As you walk through it you will see dashes on the road where the wall cut through, so you always know where the wall was. Can you tell how mucn I love Berlin? 

One sign is Live and Love. I think the title is self help in Kreuzberg.The person on the roof , with the telescope, is looking over the wall into east Berlin. A common thing to do

Edited April 23, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[Umbelina]

That's one scene I wish they had included.  Paige should have seen the wall.  From what you are describing, it would almost be impossible for her NOT to see it.  I'd think that would make quite an impression on her, and would have made her fear, loathing, and thus the call to the preacher make even more sense.

[JennyMominFL]

You mean the Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart? That's what Elizabeth would probably call it.

[Dowel Jones]

Are you saying something about Nazis? Because there's zero evidence that the children of Nazis didn't love their parents.

 

In fact, Josef Mengele not only knew of his father Adolf's existence, he openly welcomed him, albeit under an alias, back to Germany several times in the decades after WWII.  Blood can be much thicker than water. 

 

If they kill Pastor Tim, won't they also have to kill the Mrs. Pastor?  She could have knowledge also.  And that sets an entirely new path down to chaos.

[JennyMominFL]

In fact, Josef Mengele not only knew of his father Adolf's existence, he openly welcomed him, albeit under an alias, back to Germany several times in the decades after WWII.  Blood can be much thicker than water. 

 

 

what?

[John S]

In fact, Josef Mengele not only knew of his father Adolf's existence, he openly welcomed him, albeit under an alias, back to Germany several times in the decades after WWII.  Blood can be much thicker than water. 

 

If they kill Pastor Tim, won't they also have to kill the Mrs. Pastor?  She could have knowledge also.  And that sets an entirely new path down to chaos.

YES - They would also have to kill the Mrs. - Paige would suspect her parents, even if they didn't do it - and she would probably NEVER speak to them again.

[Umbelina]

It would happen in Kenya.  Anti communists would probably be framed for it.  At least, that's my guess.

[John S]

When Paige was sitting on the toilet, praying for the health of her grandmother, Elizabeth came into the bathroom and sat on the floor. I thought for a split second that she just MIGHT join Paige - but she didn't. I was wondering if she was thinking about it.

[SunnyBeBe]

I thought that when Elizabeth went into the bathroom with Paige and sat on the floor, she was saying that while she couldn't pray, since she doesn't believe i God, she could be close to her daughter in spirit and that's why she sat down close by.  It was a show of respect and support for Paige, IMO.  

 

I didn't understand Gabriel's speech to Philip.  Why did he tell him to grow up?  I thought that speech was not well written.  

 

And if the Centre was all that unhappy with Elizabeth ad Paige going to Germany, all they had to do was nothing.  No one forced them to bring mom to the hotel.  If it wasn't sanctioned, then they just ignore the request.  Elizabeth can sight see and return when she pleases.  

Edited April 23, 2015 by SunnyBeBe

[Umbelina]

Not really though.  If they did nothing, Elizabeth may have tried to haul Paige's ass through Russia to get to her mother.  Bringing her mother to Elizabeth was the best of bad options.  At this point, both Elizabeth and Philip are unpredictable and breaking rules.

[RedHawk]

If they did nothing, Elizabeth may have tried to haul Paige's ass through Russia to get to her mother.

 

 

Yikes, I can see her doing that!

Philip tried to get Elizabeth to talk to him about her feelings about her mother. She thanked him and told him it was the right thing. So disappointing for him when he wanted her to say something real about how she felt. He knew it had to be deeply emotional. I could even see him thinking that he had no mother to see one last time and maybe he wanted her to think about that also. He was craving it all -- connection, understanding, openness, honesty. He's so alone. 

[John S]

I thought that when Elizabeth went into the bathroom with Paige and sat on the floor, she was saying that while she couldn't pray, since she doesn't believe i God, she could be close to her daughter in spirit and that's why she sat down close by.  It was a show of respect and support for Paige, IMO.  

 

I didn't understand Gabriel's speech to Philip.  Why did he tell him to grow up?  I thought that speech was not well written.  

 

And if the Centre was all that unhappy with Elizabeth ad Paige going to Germany, all they had to do was nothing.  No one forced them to bring mom to the hotel.  If it wasn't sanctioned, then they just ignore the request.  Elizabeth can sight see and return when she pleases.  

Apparently, Paige doesn't respect or support her mother - or she wouldn't have told the pastor that her parents are such liars and Russians.

[bluebonnet]

 

I didn't understand Gabriel's speech to Philip.  Why did he tell him to grow up?  I thought that speech was not well written.  

 

I probably had the exact opposite impact that Gabriel intended.  Usually you tell someone to grow up as an almost shaming method, to get them to act in a way the speaker deems appropriate.  For Gabriel, that means Philip doing what he's told.  Really, though, growing up means making decisions for yourself, taking charge of your own life.  These were themes explored with all the characters this season.  

[RedheadZombie]

This was a great finale, I loved it.

 

Nina - I enjoy the actress, but I'm not a Nina fan.  I enjoyed her sitting on Anton's bed, all doe-eyed and tragic, and him not completely falling for the man eater.  I would have enjoyed watching him taking her by the arm and escorting her little ass to the door.  I'm not falling for her supposed honesty and world weariness.  Her storyline seems too peripheral at this point, and if she doesn't quickly come back to the US, I'd prefer her character to be written off.

 

Elizabeth and her mother - Each season I care less for Elizabeth, but KR can get me with her vulnerability and tears.  When she told Philip he wouldn't like her mother, it seemed like a rare moment of true reflection.  I would have liked for the meeting to result differently.  Rather than reinforcing her militant stance, I wish it would have forced her to question if it was worth it.   When her mother said, "I had to let you go.  Everything was at stake.", I thought to myself - Wow, not even an ounce of regret.  I wondered if Elizabeth was taken aback, hoping her mother would acknowledge her sacrifice, or even say she wished it had happened differently.  I don't know why I was surprised, she obviously learned her militant stance at her mother's knee.

 

Zenaida - Wow, she was stone cold.  No fear when she realized she was caught, just death-glare and challenge in her eyes when she stared down Gaad.

 

Stan - I'm glad he seemingly got away with everything.  I really like the actor, and writing off the character would damage the show for me.  His closeness to the Jennings family is one of my favorite plot lines.  I hope they keep him focused and smart from now on.  Love the fact that he was working Oleg the whole time - he owes him nothing.

 

Paige and Elizabeth - Again Elizabeth just does not understand her, or what she needs.  When Paige asked if Elizabeth would just let her do the same thing, she wanted Elizabeth to say - No, never!  She could have also thrown in that Philip would never let it happen, either.  But Elizabeth gives her a qualified answer, and Paige wasn't reassured.  Of course Elizabeth was clueless.

 

Completely freaky that Philip's fake suicide note for his victim, "I had no choice ......  I'm sorry", could have been an echo of his own thoughts.

 

Philip, Sandra, and EST - I didn't realize at first that Philip was there with honest intentions, so I thought he was planning on working Sandra.  I've always liked the actress who plays Sandra, and I was really surprised to see how well the characters worked together.  Sandra couldn't be more different than Elizabeth and there was definitely chemistry there.  I loved Philip and Elizabeth's romance in season one, but Philip is lost, and as much as I think Elizabeth loves him, he will never be first in her life.  I don't know if any romance is intended, but spending time with Sandra may break the hold Elizabeth has on Philip - at least enough for him to make her listen to him. 

 

Regarding Henry - I think it was very telling that Philip didn't immediately get Henry, he loves spending time with him.  I think Philip was in such a dark place, he doubted he could hide it from Henry.  Plus, the guy that he killed made him think of Henry, and he was about to fall apart about that murder.  I also think, story wise, that Henry being present would have altered the entire mood of the final scene.  Henry is the only Jennings member who's currently happy, and not living under the burden of the secrets.

 

Final scene - Vintage Elizabeth.  Convinced Paige had a positive experience and is just fine, while she's actually curled into a ball, feeling completely isolated and on the verge of a breakdown.  Then cutting off a visibly deeply disturbed Philip to focus on the television - just brilliant.  Philip looks ..... not surprised that Elizabeth turns from him at his weakest moment.  Elizabeth, practically hyperventilating with murder in her eyes, glancing back and realizing that Philip doesn't give a flying fuck what Reagan is saying.  Paige, only one room away, huddled on the floor and reaching out to the only person she now trusts.  Then Henry - happy as a clam in the house of their enemy.  I'm rooting for Henry to be the one who ends this all.

[magdalene]

Poor pastor Tim. It was nice knowing you. Poor Oleg. Still disliking Stan, he weasels out of everything. Philip and Sandra have chemistry. Hmm. Martha lives through another season.

 

I am ready for Elizabeth and Philip to get caught and for their spy games to end. During the first season I was okay with calling them anti-heroes and I was sort of rooting for them but all these innocent people they have ruthlessly murdered. They need to end. I just don't want Stan to catch them because I loathe him.

[mjc570]

I wonder, if the Centre at some point will order P/E to kill Paige, since she is such an obvious danger to their operations. If so, that sets up a number of possible story lines, not just for P/E, but also other characters such as Pastor Tim, Oleg, Martha and Stan.

Edited to add: Obviously Philip wouldn't do it, and it might be just enough to force Elizabeth to reexamine her commitment to the Soviet Union. It could, after appropriate soul-searching and truth telling, lead to a plausible defection scenario.

Edited April 24, 2015 by mjc570

[sistermagpie]

Also calling his wife "Alice?" seems quite disrespectful to me.

 

 

I guess she calls him Tim, with the Pastor title. But I honestly get the sense that that marriage is traditional in the sense that he's the head of the household and the wife speaks only when it's her place. They've never focused on it but it frankly seems like another very unhealthy thing about her being drawn to these people--like I said earlier, the church may be liberal politically but I assume it supports plenty of positions that we'd today not associate with liberalism.

 

It actually makes me even speculate about her relationship to her parents since in the past Paige seems to have made a point of noting that her mother is the troublesome one. I wonder if one of the things that the pastor and his wife "fix" is that they follow these roles, and that she sees Philip as being potentially weak because he puts up with Elizabeth. (Elizabeth herself had that same impression of weakness.) I don't mean to accuse Paige of being a big misogynist or anything, but I really feel like there's meaning in the world she's drawn to beyond political activism and being a good person. The fact that Reagan's speech was to Evangelicals is significant even if every single one wouldn't applaud it.

 

I can and do condemn her. Her decision to value her own sense of What Is Right above the safety of the two people who brought her up, without talking to them at any length about it, is selfish in the extreme. Paige doesn't know what we know re Elizabeth's murders etc.

 

 

This is something that really stuck out to me in terms of why she did this. I do associate the "they want to make me a liar too" with that attitude some have about protecting their souls by avoiding "bad" behavior. I don't think that was the point, but I definitely thought that Paige's attitude throughout the ep was primarily selfish--and I'm not condemning her for that since one could make an argument that of course she's thinking about herself. From her pov everybody's played a cruel practical joke on her for years so why should she be thinking about her parents' feelings? That can come later.

 

But justified as it is, I definitely thought that was her view throughout the ep and maybe one of the reasons she couldn't talk to her parents. She doesn't want to think about their problems. Even Elizabeth meeting her mother reflected back to herself: she wanted to know if Elizabeth would do that to her, she didn't feel a connection to the woman and she made a point of praying for her to assert that's her thing. Pastor Tim isn't just the person she trusts above her parents but the person who exists to focus on her and be a role model/perfect figure. This trip wasn't about getting to know her mother, it was about looking for something to make herself feel right again and it had the opposite effect. Meanwhile Elizabeth has her own fantasies about what this is about and isn't seeing the reality.

 

I wouldn't say, though, that Paige has come down on the side of really choosing right over family in a total sense. I don't think she was making that decision yet. She was telling Pastor Tim, not Stan, and she was telling him not to tell anyone. She just wanted to talk to someone about how upset she was at this knowledge, not thinking yet about whether she should turn them in. She did what she had to do to make herself feel better in the moment. She didn't want to make that choice--either the choice to live the way Elizabeth does every day or to send her mother away forever (which she thought was horrifying when her grandmother did it). She was choosing her sense of right over the safety of her parents, but I don't know how much she really understands that.

 

Are you suggesting Jews in the Holocaust didn't love their children? Or put them in danger by being Jewish, and should have converted?

 

 

I think they meant that Jews in the Holocaust could be forgiven for raising their children in a dangerous situation because it was so out of their control.

 

Interesting when I think back how very real and surprisingly open Philip seemed with Sandra, like taking his first baby steps. Just because Sandra is a nice person with good intentions and no agenda besides the same one he has. And he was even doing it as something like himself so there was no guilt involved. Even the secrets they agreed to keep for each other were an equal trade based on total understanding.

Edited April 23, 2015 by sistermagpie

[John S]

I wonder, if the Centre at some point will order P/E to kill Paige, since she is such an obvious danger to their operations.  If so, that sets up a number of possible story lines, not just for P/E, but also other characters such as Pastor Tim, Oleg, Martha and Stan.

Philip will NEVER kill Paige and as horrible of a person as Elizabeth is, I doubt that she could either.

[soapfaninnc]

Paige's parents have loved her, that much is pretty obvious in the context of the show, regardless of whether you approve of their actions or not.

 

Elizabeth doesn't even see her as a person - just an extension of herself. I don't believe Elizabeth loves her. I don't believe Elizabeth has a clue in hell what love is.

[soapfaninnc]

This was a great finale, I loved it.

 

Nina - I enjoy the actress, but I'm not a Nina fan.  I enjoyed her sitting on Anton's bed, all doe-eyed and tragic, and him not completely falling for the man eater.  I would have enjoyed watching him taking her by the arm and escorting her little ass to the door.  I'm not falling for her supposed honesty and world weariness.  Her storyline seems too peripheral at this point, and if she doesn't quickly come back to the US, I'd prefer her character to be written off.

 

Elizabeth and her mother - Each season I care less for Elizabeth, but KR can get me with her vulnerability and tears.  When she told Philip he wouldn't like her mother, it seemed like a rare moment of true reflection.  I would have liked for the meeting to result differently.  Rather than reinforcing her militant stance, I wish it would have forced her to question if it was worth it.   When her mother said, "I had to let you go.  Everything was at stake.", I thought to myself - Wow, not even an ounce of regret.  I wondered if Elizabeth was taken aback, hoping her mother would acknowledge her sacrifice, or even say she wished it had happened differently.  I don't know why I was surprised, she obviously learned her militant stance at her mother's knee.

 

Zenaida - Wow, she was stone cold.  No fear when she realized she was caught, just death-glare and challenge in her eyes when she stared down Gaad.

 

Stan - I'm glad he seemingly got away with everything.  I really like the actor, and writing off the character would damage the show for me.  His closeness to the Jennings family is one of my favorite plot lines.  I hope they keep him focused and smart from now on.  Love the fact that he was working Oleg the whole time - he owes him nothing.

 

Paige and Elizabeth - Again Elizabeth just does not understand her, or what she needs.  When Paige asked if Elizabeth would just let her do the same thing, she wanted Elizabeth to say - No, never!  She could have also thrown in that Philip would never let it happen, either.  But Elizabeth gives her a qualified answer, and Paige wasn't reassured.  Of course Elizabeth was clueless.

 

Completely freaky that Philip's fake suicide note for his victim, "I had no choice ......  I'm sorry", could have been an echo of his own thoughts.

 

Philip, Sandra, and EST - I didn't realize at first that Philip was there with honest intentions, so I thought he was planning on working Sandra.  I've always liked the actress who plays Sandra, and I was really surprised to see how well the characters worked together.  Sandra couldn't be more different than Elizabeth and there was definitely chemistry there.  I loved Philip and Elizabeth's romance in season one, but Philip is lost, and as much as I think Elizabeth loves him, he will never be first in her life.  I don't know if any romance is intended, but spending time with Sandra may break the hold Elizabeth has on Philip - at least enough for him to make her listen to him. 

 

Regarding Henry - I think it was very telling that Philip didn't immediately get Henry, he loves spending time with him.  I think Philip was in such a dark place, he doubted he could hide it from Henry.  Plus, the guy that he killed made him think of Henry, and he was about to fall apart about that murder.  I also think, story wise, that Henry being present would have altered the entire mood of the final scene.  Henry is the only Jennings member who's currently happy, and not living under the burden of the secrets.

 

Final scene - Vintage Elizabeth.  Convinced Paige had a positive experience and is just fine, while she's actually curled into a ball, feeling completely isolated and on the verge of a breakdown.  Then cutting off a visibly deeply disturbed Philip to focus on the television - just brilliant.  Philip looks ..... not surprised that Elizabeth turns from him at his weakest moment.  Elizabeth, practically hyperventilating with murder in her eyes, glancing back and realizing that Philip doesn't give a flying fuck what Reagan is saying.  Paige, only one room away, huddled on the floor and reaching out to the only person she now trusts.  Then Henry - happy as a clam in the house of their enemy.  I'm rooting for Henry to be the one who ends this all.

 

Pretty much summed it up for me. I cannot. stand. Elizabeth. As I said before the last show, she is the Center's special little snowflake - she always gets what she wants. Poor Phillip is told to grow up and poor Paige is on the verge of a nervous breakdown because the woman who gave birth to her refused to give her an unequivocal answer. I think Paige sees that Elizabeth doesn't recognize that she is a person with her own thoughts and feelings and beliefs. And that she never will.

[sistermagpie]

 Pretty much summed it up for me. I cannot. stand. Elizabeth. As I said before the last show, she is the Center's special little snowflake - she always gets what she wants. Poor Phillip is told to grow up and poor Paige is on the verge of a nervous breakdown because the woman who gave birth to her refused to give her an unequivocal answer.

 

 

It occurs to me that this is a nice callback to that scene early on when Elizabeth first tells the story about how she went to her mother and she "didn't blink" and told her to go. She tells that story obviously expecting support from Philip since she's explaining why this seems so important to her and the right thing to do. But the response, just like with Paige on this trip, is to create greater distance between them. Instead of Philip saying he now understands and agreeing with her he just silently sits down as if distancing himself. He wasn't touching that but clearly did not want that attitude for is daughter.

 

I just remembered too that Gabriel tells Philip that he thinks that just because *Elizabeth* has some thoughts different from his and doesn't do what he wants that he thinks something's wrong with her. Interesting since of course for years it was Elizabeth who diagnosed Philip as having something wrong with him for doing this differently. Gabriel's sort of turning that around on Philip to make him feel guilty but he really is beginning to own his position that there is something *wrong* with this attitude towards your daughter. But this is the rebellious act. Elizabeth's attitude has been rewarded and celebrated by their superiors for years. When she and Gabriel claim that Philip is saying they're wrong, it's more just what they feel due to his sticking to his opinion.

[Cardie]

The cartoon map portrays the residents of Kreuzberg as akin to the self-absorbed hipsters of today. (The sign on the church says "Serve yourself, then serve God.) The east German guards are looking at the windmill that's pumping water and saying, "They spin, the West Berliners." My German is rusty so I can't read all of it but that's the general drift.

 

I really think that defection has to be in the cards next season. Too many people deeply entwined in the Jennings' lives would have to be bumped off to keep the secret going. I would really love Stan running his neighbors as double agents. They would be such a prized catch that if they wouldn't turn, they'd be shipped back to the USSR in a prisoner swap immediately. P&E really have more leverage if they come clean than if they continue to play this increasingly dangerous game. The only wrinkle is that Elizabeth will resist this to the bitter end.

 

Gabriel's alarm about the passport puzzled me. Does this mean neither P nor E has tested the false documents by leaving the country? Travel agency owners would be expected to go abroad often to check out hotels and other attractions they book. As the fake story confirms, they would also be showered with free travel offers by firms that want business steered their way.

[RedHawk]

Really, though, growing up means making decisions for yourself, taking charge of your own life.  These were themes explored with all the characters this season.

 

 

Just the advice Philip gave Paige.

 

Elizabeth had an opening to explain to Paige what her childhood had been like and how she had helped her mother by "going away" and taking the "job" she had. She could have put it in terms Paige might have, if not immediately understood, thought about and mulled over. She really flubbed it there, with her "You wouldn't have to do that." Elizabeth has no idea what will be asked of Paige, so her only hope is to get Paige to connect with her on a personal mother-daughter basis. Even to say, "My mother was tough but I knew that she loved me" would have helped. 

[sistermagpie]

I would really love Stan running his neighbors as double agents. They would be such a prized catch that if they wouldn't turn, they'd be shipped back to the USSR in a prisoner swap immediately. P&E really have more leverage if they come clean than if they continue to play this increasingly dangerous game. The only wrinkle is that Elizabeth will resist this to the bitter end.

 

 

Why would Philip not be resisting it? The only thing more increasingly dangerous than being an agent is being a double agent, isn't it? Plus they're actively working to support aggression against their own country? Why would either of them want that?

[Umbelina]

The cartoon map portrays the residents of Kreuzberg as akin to the self-absorbed hipsters of today. (The sign on the church says "Serve yourself, then serve God.) The east German guards are looking at the windmill that's pumping water and saying, "They spin, the West Berliners." My German is rusty so I can't read all of it but that's the general drift.

 

I really think that defection has to be in the cards next season. Too many people deeply entwined in the Jennings' lives would have to be bumped off to keep the secret going. I would really love Stan running his neighbors as double agents. They would be such a prized catch that if they wouldn't turn, they'd be shipped back to the USSR in a prisoner swap immediately. P&E really have more leverage if they come clean than if they continue to play this increasingly dangerous game. The only wrinkle is that Elizabeth will resist this to the bitter end.

 

Gabriel's alarm about the passport puzzled me. Does this mean neither P nor E has tested the false documents by leaving the country? Travel agency owners would be expected to go abroad often to check out hotels and other attractions they book. As the fake story confirms, they would also be showered with free travel offers by firms that want business steered their way.

 

It sounds like they've never left under their false passports as Philip and/or Elizabeth.  Paige's passport is presumably legitimate.

 

They could have always sent employees on the free vacations, and off to do that stuff.

 

We shall see if Elizabeth''s passport actually raised any alarms, or does when further checking is routinely done.  It seems an odd comment to drop if nothing is going to come of it. 

[crgirl412]

I just watched it!!  I soooo wanted to watch it when I got home from work but I was too tired since I was the only RN with 6 patients on my floor.  A co-worker only had 3!!  WTH???? 

 

I'm still trying process it and I need to watch it again.  It was good on many levels but odd too.  The most bothersome to me was not Paige ratting out her parents to Pastor Tim thus literally risking their lives but Sandra wanting to "go clear" with Philip. 

[shura]

It would happen in Kenya.  Anti communists would probably be framed for it.  At least, that's my guess.

 

You don't need to frame anybody. All you need is a strategically placed, angry black mamba. If anyone could do weird assassinations like that, the KGB would be it. And nobody would suspect a thing - he would honestly die from a snake bite.

[henripootel]

There is more then one way to kill a person.    P&E can't outright murder him but they are clever little spies.  They can figure out a way to get rid of him.   OR they can you know....put the fear of God into Paige........

Why not both?  Dollars to donuts Pastor Tim 'kills himself' and is found with kiddie porn or something equally awful.  Can't just kill the man, you have to kill the idea.

 

Did like the fact that after the director guy told Stan that they wouldn't be trading for Nina, the look on Stan's face was less surprise and more 'fuck was I thinking?'  

 

Likewise, the look on Zenaida's face when the FBI was there in force to greet her: busted.  Oh, and it's gonna take about 2 seconds for the Centre to realize they have a leak.  Good luck figuring out who it is if the info was basically told to everyone in the rezidentura.

Edited April 24, 2015 by henripootel

[Domestic Assassin]

Oh, and it's gonna take about 2 seconds for the Centre to realize they have a leak.  Good luck figuring out who it is if the info was basically told to everyone in the rezidentura.

 

 

Given Oleg's conversation with that woman in the rezidentura (is it Tatiana?) hinting around about maybe having an agent pretend to defect, she should be able to piece it together pretty quickly.

[ruby24]

Why not both?  Dollars to donuts Pastor Tim 'kills himself' and is found with kiddie porn or something equally awful.  Can't just kill the man, you have to kill the idea.

 

Now that's an idea. I can see the Centre doing something like that. Not just have him die mysteriously, but frame him for something else entirely, so that Paige loses all her illusions about the guy.

 

Of course that'd be horrible for her too, but then she may not necessarily suspect her parents of anything. Just be devastated about another adult in her life for a different reason. Which would suck and either way, I can't see Philip consenting to it.

[ToastnBacon]

It's also kind of interesting to me that the end result of Analiese's (unwilling) sacrifice was to keep weapons out of the hands of Islamic Fundamentalists that the USA was trying hard to arm.

 

There is plenty of blood on the hands of USA "fanatically loyal" spies as well.  Actually, if they were disloyal, would we hate them more?  Philip, in that instance would be the bad guy, and Elizabeth the red, white, and blue hero.  Winners write the history.

Huh?

Are you trying to say the USSR and the USA were the same?

Thanks for the laugh.

[bluebonnet]

Huh?

Are you trying to say the USSR and the USA were the same?

Thanks for the laugh.

I don't think any reasonable person could deny this.  The US certainly isn't some saint.  Policies and actions from both of these regimes during this time are still felt today, not in good ways either.  The blind patriotism we see from Elizabeth is dangerous and gross no mater what country it's supporting. 

Edited April 24, 2015 by bluebonnet

[ruby24]

The U.S. isn't perfect, but we're a democracy and the USSR was not. That in itself is enough to say which is a better place.

[ToastnBacon]

Elizabeth doesn't even see her as a person - just an extension of herself. I don't believe Elizabeth loves her. I don't believe Elizabeth has a clue in hell what love is.

I agree, Elizabeth is a deeply flawed and damaged person. With what we have been shown of her backstory, I see her clinging to her patriotism as a way of holding herself together.

[Umbelina]

The U.S. isn't perfect, but we're a democracy and the USSR was not. That in itself is enough to say which is a better place.

 

Well, we are talking about spies, not governments, although there is a thread for that. 

So, because "we are a better place" our spies were boy scouts, and we didn't arm Islamic fundamentalists, or overthrow governments, or ever kill innocents to reach our goals?  Or torture people?  Or do anything questionable?

I agree, Elizabeth is a deeply flawed and damaged person. With what we have been shown of her backstory, I see her clinging to her patriotism as a way of holding herself together.

As many do, regardless of their governments' actions.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Umbelina

[ToastnBacon]

I don't think any reasonable person could deny this.  The US certainly isn't some saint.  Policies and actions from both of these regimes during this time are still felt today, not in good ways either.  The blind patriotism we see from Elizabeth is dangerous and gross no mater what country it's supporting.

I replied to you in the politics of the 1980's thread.

[Dowel Jones]

what?

 

Sorry.  I got the names off.  Josef Mengele was the father, Rolf was the son.