Karen Page: Friend, Mediator, Non-Caped Crusader

[WendyCR72]

It's ironic that I made this post for Karen because, and I feel a bit alone here, she was really starting to aggravate me by the end.

 

I realize she was put in an awful position by United Allied, but once the Fisk part of the equation went into play, she was as blind as Matt - at least until a certain pivotal meeting with a henchman - when it came to trying to bring Fisk down. Not only did she put herself in danger, her prerogative, she seemed to have little regard for Ben. And Matt and Foggy, even if Matt has his secret. From the point of view of Karen not knowing, she has put both guys at risk, too.

 

I know, Ben was a reporter and a big boy on his own, but he told Karen more than once about his responsibilities for his wife, and it set off a chain of events that exploded in her face. I didn't blame Ben for being pissed when Karen ambushed him when visiting Fisk's mother.

 

And it saddens me because Deborah Ann Woll is a good actress and Karen has a great rapport with both Matt and Foggy.

 

But I don't know. Something about her was bugging me by the end, and it's a shame because I am/was completely on board with Fisk, Matt, Foggy, Claire, and all the rest.

[Carrie Ann]

It's ironic that I made this post for Karen because, and I feel a bit alone here, she was really starting to aggravate me by the end.

 

I realize she was put in an awful position by United Allied, but once the Fisk part of the equation went into play, she was as blind as Matt - at least until a certain pivotal meeting with a henchman - when it came to trying to bring Fisk down. Not only did she put herself in danger, her prerogative, she seemed to have little regard for Ben. And Matt and Foggy, even if Matt has his secret. From the point of view of Karen not knowing, she has put both guys at risk, too.

 

I know, Ben was a reporter and a big boy on his own, but he told Karen more than once about his responsibilities for his wife, and it set off a chain of events that exploded in her face. I didn't blame Ben for being pissed when Karen ambushed him when visiting Fisk's mother.

 

And it saddens me because Deborah Ann Woll is a good actress and Karen has a great rapport with both Matt and Foggy.

 

But I don't know. Something about her was bugging me by the end, and it's a shame because I am/was completely on board with Fisk, Matt, Foggy, Claire, and all the rest.

 

You're not alone. But I actually liked Karen (and DAW) more by the end of the season than I did to begin with. I said somewhere here before that one of the only things that didn't work for me on the show was the lack of development in the Foggy/Karen/Matt team/friendship, and particularly in the Karen/Matt side. All of a sudden, we were just supposed to believe that they had all settled into a nice friendship together, and they honestly did not show that. I saw Foggy and Karen develop a friendship, and obviously Foggy and Matt. But not the three together, and not K/M at all until like Ep 11? And by that time, they were acting like it was this real bond, and I just don't buy it. Which is unfortunate, because obviously the show is going to rely on that team (and probably pair K/M romantically) going forward, and I'm bummed that the foundation of it is shaky.

 

Okay, that said, the thing that was irritating about Karen in the beginning for me was that naivete, and as you say, the blindness (heh) to how she was endangering herself and those around her. But...I don't know, by the end, even as the worst case scenarios played out, I'd somehow come around to her side. I came to see her as someone desperate, obsessed with bringing this guy down, and that obsession blinded her to the fact that she was crossing lines and getting into serious danger. But it didn't feel willful or arrogant; it felt like a flaw, and I think the show treated it as one, and that's all I ask.

 

Like, I don't find what she did admirable--tricking Ben into visiting Fisk's mom literally got him murdered, tore him out of his wife's life. It's horrible, and doing that did not help bring Fisk down, in the end. But it's clearly a mistake she's going to have to live with, and I think she does feel the weight of it.

 

My concern about this in the next season is that they seem to be putting more emotional weight on the fact that she killed Wesley. And honestly, to me, getting Ben killed is way worse. His wife didn't have the full details when she absolved Karen. As a viewer, I don't absolve her, and I don't think she should absolve herself. I hope they don't forget about this in light of her feeling like a murderer for killing a guy who would have killed her.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[GHScorpiosRule]

I don't think Karen was being malicious, but yes, blind, heh, when she got on her Fisk and Union Allied mantra. To the point of being stupid.  Not taking precautions, not being careful. It's as if she'd forgotten he was behind her being framed for murder, and two attempts to kill her.

 

But the worst was her taking Ben to Fisk's mother. All because Ben said his wife was his priority now, and he had to take care of her. Her actions there, just demonstrated to me, at least, that she had tunnel vision and all she cared about was what she wanted, and everyone else should agree with her and help her/work with her to accomplish it.

 

So, when at Ben's funeral, she told his widow, it was her fault, damned right I yelled "Damn straight it's your fault!" even though his widow said otherwise.

 

But I don't hate Karen, so please don't bean me.

[writersblock51]

I don't hate Karen either. I think she's having a lot of trouble trusting people, especially the 2 she is now partners with. Only Ben knew what she knew - until she killed Wesley. I think she realized then that she was in over her head and no one in her life would benefit from knowing what had happened.

 

I appreciate that she's not the wide-eyed person at the end of the season that she may have been at the beginning. I also appreciate that she has layers - flawed ones and admirable ones.  She fits right into Matt's grey world.  I would say that she has more in common with Matt (though neither of them realize just how much as of now) than she does with Foggy.  I think she's closer to Foggy, even as just friends and partners. But Foggy would be horrified by her secrets - Matt would likely be more understanding and supportive.

 

I think the actress did a very good job of conveying innocence/vulernability with determination, strength and manipulation. 

 

I like everyone on the show. I know she's been a polarizing character for many, especially with Ben's death.  But I think she's interesting. Not always easy to understand or like but I'm glad she's still alive at the end.

 

As for her role in Ben's death... I don't blame her. No way did Karen know the lengths that Wesley or Fisk would go to just for talking to Fisk's mother.  Ben has been threatened before.  He's no fool. He could have just as easily walked out on the visit with Fisk's mother and waited for Karen in the hallway (and then told her off on the long ride back to the city).  But he wanted to know the truth as well. His wife was right on that part - he knew what he was getting into when he hit on this kind of story.

 

There's a reason why everyone was scared to death of Fisk. He's mentally unstable, violent and emotionally young.  He's also extremely inconsistent.  

 

Ben may have met a ton of scary bad guys, but I doubt any of them snuck into his home and threatened him the way Fisk did.

 

I don't put all of that on Karen.

Edited April 21, 2015 by writersblock51

[that one guy]

I love Karen - my favorite part of the series. I liked that her investigation drove the central conflict of the season, which was a better choice than having her be a clueless sidekick to an investigation led by Matt, which would have been how many shows did it. But mostly I like her because she's a damaged anti-hero. I'm not going to speculate too much about what's driving her, other than to say Deb Woll has stated they were doing the beginning and end of her arc at the same time, which I read to mean that her dark, Frank Millery future has become a dark, Frank Millery past. It's clear from episodes 11-12 that she's killed before and used to do hard drugs . . . okay, I am going to speculate. But whatever's driving her now, her obsession with the case ended up getting Ben killed, but also bringing down Fisk - which is a pretty dark tradeoff. I don't think she's naive so much as a little bit sociopathic*, and that's part of what I like about the character. How come only male (super)heroes get to be  dark and driven and put other people in danger for the cause? I was greatful she's not just another boring nice girl sidekick.

 

I just wish she and Matt would trade secrets - each would be surprised by how easily the other would accept what they've done. Actually, at the end there I strongly suspected each knew the other's secret anyway, which was a bit annoying. Spit it out already.

 

*in the clinical sense. Pathological disregard for the well being of others and all that.

[Bec]

I saw Foggy and Karen develop a friendship, and obviously Foggy and Matt. But not the three together, and not K/M at all until like Ep 11?

Hee, when Stick asked Matt if there were people he cared about and he said "yeah, two", no question Foggy is one of them, but I did briefly wonder if Karen is supposed to be the other one or was he talking about Claire (who at point he still seemed closer to despite the two of them not planning to see each other ever again)?

 

Although, I think I could buy that Matt opening up his home to her in the first episode meant a lot to Karen and Karen believing the masked man wasn't a terrorist meant a lot to Matt. So, while they didn't hang out together so much, there is some basis for how much they care about each other.

 

Foggy would be horrified by her secrets - Matt would likely be more understanding and supportive.

Yes, I think so, too! And likewise Karen would probably be way more understanding than Foggy was if/when she finds out Matt's secret. Foggy was angry partly because he doesn't keep any secrets from Matt, and he still thought maybe the masked man blew up the city. Karen wouldn't have those issues. Besides, she can't be too angry at the person who saved her life.

 

I just wish she and Matt would trade secrets - each would be surprised by how easily the other would accept what they've done.

I bet that's coming in season 2.

[FurryFury]

I really like Karen. I can't fault her for Ben's death because he knew what he was doing way better than her and still did it. It was his choice, it was what he was. I think his widow's reaction seals the deal.

 

What I liked the most of Karen and her story was how proactive she was allowed to be, and how strong her moral compass was. She made the choice to be a hero - not an action hero, of course, but still, and I can't help but sympathize with this choice. It bodes well for her in the future, I think.

 

I do agree not enough time has been spent on her, Matt and Foggy. They have a fun dynamic and tons of potential, but Matt has been on his own for far too long. I definitely feel like Karen should be let in on the secret sometime in season 2, the sooner, the better. Maybe because I can't stand the "lying to your friends and family" trope that seems to be a necessary part of being a superhero, I don't know. But I really want to see more of the trio working together, both on legal cases and not.

[Danny Franks]

I don't think we were supposed to like everything Karen did through the course of the season. And especially not the stunt she pulled in tricking Ben into going to that nursing home. Like everyone else on the show, she had some shades of grey and some selfishness and blinkered drive to what she wanted to do.

 

She was putting people at risk, and while I think she realised that on some level, she just thought it was more important to get to the truth and punish those who had destroyed her life. It's not entirely sympathetic, but I think it is understandable and relatable. She's capable of being cold and calculating, which puts her ahead of many comic book women, who have to be the warm, supportive shoulder for the brave, manly men to rest their weary heads on from time to time. Karen clearly isn't going to be that for Matt. Sure, they might get closer, but if the writing continues the way it has, she'll have her own agenda as well.

 

For what it's worth, I think she was bullshitting Wesley when she said she'd shot someone before. Her reaction to doing it was too powerful for me to believe it wasn't the first time. She was practically going into shock, but still able to keep her wits about her, and I just don't think she'd have reacted that strongly if it wasn't new and terrifying to her. The drugs stuff will probably be included in some fashion, as part of her backstory. I don't think it's necessary, and it will just make me think, 'fuck you, Frank Miller', like so much of the stuff he's ever had a hand in does.

 

Oh, and because this was raised in an episode thread, having rewatched the season I can now say for sure that she never had anything going on with Foggy. There was that one 'date', which ended with her asking Foggy to pretend he was Matt. She was completely fine with the idea of Foggy getting back together with Marcie, so it doesn't look like there's any hidden feelings either.

[Eneya]

I am always a bit weirded when incredibly awesome people are shown as lacking any friends. I mean... come on... people liking those people and while not being close with many people, many people would want to be around those. So many incredible assholes have friends and people who hang around them, when someone nice is being shown as friendless, I am always skeptical... also, he is attractive... let is not forget how much that plays as well. :)

[ribboninthesky1]

But I don't know. Something about her was bugging me by the end, and it's a shame because I am/was completely on board with Fisk, Matt, Foggy, Claire, and all the rest.

 

I started out liking Karen a lot, but she started to grate by episode four, and by the end, I had to start forwarding past many of her scenes.  Ultimately, I just didn't find her that interesting or engaging as a character.  I preferred Claire in every way, and her relationship with Matt felt way more organic, authentic, and intimate in a way I'm not sure I'll ever buy with Karen (or Foggy, for that matter, because I'm not referring to a romantic relationship).  I'm not seeing this great character with agency that others (and I assume the writers) claim that she is.     

[Knittzu]

I'll be honest, I thought she was the weakest part of the show. I was really irritated when the awesome and very useful Claire was sidelined while Karen was given more and more screen-time. 

 

The fact that she manipulated Ben into taking a huge risk that ultimately cost him his life has been covered by others, so I'll address my other major issue with her character -- namely WHY was she hired by this neonate law firm with no money and no clients? It makes no sense to me. A firm with no clients has no need for a secretary, especially one who doesn't work. Seriously, what value does Karen add to their legal practice? From what I can see, she was getting paid to pursue her vendetta against Fisk, even after Matt explicitly told her not to do so.

 

Are they even going to address the fact that she bought a bunch of junk at that auction and charged it to the firm's account? Will there be consequences, for her or the firm, or is it no biggie in comic book land when your non-working secretary blows thousands on unapproved, unnecessary purchases? 

 

I was also annoyed by the way the writers pretended she'd been in Foggy and Matt's lives forever rather than ... what, a few weeks? As the season wore on, it seemed like she was being magically elevated into a years-long important friendship rather than someone the just met literally a month ago. Someone who wormed her way into their firm by offering to work for free, and then informing Foggy the next day that actually, she absolutely intends to be paid, thank you very much. 

[Eneya]

They hired her, because they wanted to help her.

Trauma can make people feel closer to each other and there was a lot of that. They saved her, this counts a lot how close you feel to someone and how much you cling to them. Especially if you feel vulnerable and dejected and alone. I like her as a character, I like the fact that she is just as much as an idiot in some regards as Murdoch. Yes, it is interesting that nobody mentioned the auction thing and I think we will see a lot more about her involvement in Ben's death. The ultimate responsibility about Ben's death is with Fisk... I am unsure if she believed he could be murdered for that... If she knew, well... that makes her evil, if she didn't... simply stupidly naive, a trait that not only she has.

She maybe acting as incredibly close to the guys but... Claire knew them for just as much time and somehow she developed so much feelings that deep? Really? I am not going to question those, because sometimes it happens that way... but it is weird to judge one character harsher than another for the same thing. This is not a competition, there could be more than 1, 2, 3 female leads in the story, especially when we check the comics how many female characters are involved under one guise or another with the story and the characters.

[Carrie Ann]

I don't think it's a competition either, but they are both love interests for Matt, so it's natural for people to compare them as they relate to him. It was jarring as a viewer to feel like they wanted me to feel something between Matt and Karen when the connection between Matt and Claire was so much stronger. And especially because Claire disappears in Ep 11, and that's when Karen pops up with the balloon and all the talk about this apparently deep bond they share, and from that point on, it feels like the show pushing the beginnings of a M/K romantic storyline out of nowhere.

 

And it's not a matter of the number of episodes or amount of time that passed. The difference for me is that we saw Claire and Matt actually talk to each other, have real conversations about serious things. I saw their connection develop. I saw them becoming attracted to each other. I saw them become attached to each other. They didn't need to use dialogue to get that across. 

 

Whereas, we really saw very little relationship development between Karen and Matt for the bulk of the season, and then in Ep 11, suddenly we're supposed to believe they've formed a very special friendship, because that's what Karen's dialogue said. It's like they forgot to write a few scenes that actually showed that happening between M & K, or F/M/K as a team (haha just realized their initials spell that out--and spell them out in the actual order I would put them as well). We basically went from Matt and Foggy saving Karen and giving her a job--->Karen and Foggy spending a lot of time together and talking--->the show acting like Karen had those moments with Matt instead. It was bizarre. I just didn't see enough to believe in it or become invested in it. On the contrary, I DID become invested in Karen's relationships with Ben and with Foggy, so I was sad that the latter was dropped toward the end of the season.

[ribboninthesky1]

Yep, what Carrie Ann said. A standard problem with the comic/superhero genre is that pesky secret identity with supposedly close friends and loved ones. If you're hiding a significant aspect of your life and values from someone, it's really hard for me, as a viewer, to buy the emotional intimacy required for a friendship, let alone the (adult) romance. At least with Foggy, Matt had an existing friendship before the vigilantism.  Karen didn't even have that, and they barely interacted until the last few episodes of the season.  On top of that, she's in the dark about the Daredevil stuff. The way the season played out, the showrunners believed what was shown would be enough (plus, I suspect they didn't anticipate the reaction to Claire). 

[Bec]

Yeah, when Stick asked Matt if there were people he cares about and he said "Yeah, two." I wondered if he meant Foggy and Claire. I guess in the script it's supposed to mean Foggy and Karen, since as far as he knew Claire didn't want to have anything more to do with him at that point.

 

Though about the machinery Karen bought for the law firm: I was under the impression she paid for that with the money she got from Confed Global (or whatever it was) for agreeing to keep her mouth shut. Yes, she put it on the company account first, because she went to the auction before she signed that agreement, but she paid them back afterwards, right?

 

Anyway, Foggy and Matt didn't even know how to make bills, and they don't always bother to be at the office and answer their phones in case they get new clients, so they probably do need a secretary to hold down the fort for them (I guess they can actually afford one after that check they got from defending Healy). Sure, it was galling of her to kind of trick them into giving her an actual paying job, but oh well, they could have fired her if this was really a problem for them.

 

We're not going to watch stuff like Karen taking messages, doing their bookkeeping, organizing their files and making copies, but I would figure she's doing that sort of stuff, too.

[ribboninthesky1]

Though about the machinery Karen bought for the law firm: I was under the impression she paid for that with the money she got from Confed Global (or whatever it was) for agreeing to keep her mouth shut. Yes, she put it on the company account first, because she went to the auction before she signed that agreement, but she paid them back afterwards, right?

 

That's not the impression I got, as I don't recall any mention of it after Karen told Foggy. 

 

As for being fired, I thought Karen only told Foggy about wanting to be paid.  Given how Foggy loves teh hot women, he certainly doesn't have the cojones to fire her for the bait and switch OR charging over 3k in shitty equipment to their broke firm without their permission.   

[raven]

My issue with her over Ben is that it was just a crappy thing to do to someone who helped her.  He clearly told her he was out of it and needed to spend time with his wife and she manipulated that to get him to do what she wanted.  It's the lie that bugs me.  She wants him to tell the story becauase no one will believe her due to whatever shadiness is in her past, which is kind of cowardly; she's all about "Let's get Fisk" but backs off when it's time to put her name out there.  Come on, she should know that someone would run with it; it happens all the time with rumors.  Yes, it's got more gravitas coming from Ben, but she would have shown more courage if she had wanted to put the story out herself.   Remember too that early in the show a mobster tells Ben he appreciates that Ben never used his ?children? I think in a story, and here Ben is using Fisk's mother.  Granted she's a central part of the story, but IMO Ben changes his way of doing things and that's on him, but we don't get to really see if he's going to act out of character or if he does ths just to get dirt out on Fisk.  I also enjoyed their teamwork when she's wasn't lying to him.

 

It was great that Karen wasn't a shrinking violet with Wesley but I liked that character and actor better than hers, so I might be holding a bit of a grudge there.  I do like that she wasn't the wide-eyed innocent we usually see.  I stopped sympathizing with her pretty quickly actually.  She bugged me too when she continued to rag on Foggy and Matt's break-up, they all needed to work together as a team, etc while she was withholding the pretty important info that she shot Wesley. 

 

Haven't decided yet if the interesting outweighs the irritating.  We'll see what S2 brings. 

[Bec]

I thought Karen only told Foggy about wanting to be paid

What I remember from that scene was Matt came in just then and Foggy was like "Hey, you know she's not really free? Jesus, what happened to your eye?" Matt was too busy making up excuses for his shiner to address Karen not really working for free. It probably didn't completely escape him though, since he was all like "Hey, no more long lunches" when talking to Karen later.

 

Karen did tell Foggy she has money coming in when she told him she brought a bunch of crap from the auction. In a later episode Matt knows she took money for signing a non-disclosure agreement, so they all must have talked about this off-screen. Though who knows if she did end up paying them back for buying all that crap. Maybe they just agreed to take it out of her salary and call it even (so they don't actually have to pay her for a while, hee). Matt isn't a total pushover, and isn't afraid to call Karen on her crap, so I assume they worked something out.

 

I don't hate Karen, but I do wish I like her more than I actually do, because I still have some leftover good will towards Deborah Ann Woll from the character she played on True Blood (hey, it was a guilty pleasure). I do like that just about every character on this show has their flaws, and Karen is no exception. She isn't some perfect dream girl only here to be a love interest.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Bec

[jeansheridan]

I liked that she had her own plot away from the guys but her wavering cry-voice drove me nuts. And her plot was kind of boring. Research often is but there was no attempt to film it in an interesting way. Other than when they met Fisk' s mom.

Her one scene with Wesley was great and I regret he didn't get to blackmail/coherse her longer. We got a glimpse of his power and overt ruthlessness only to have it snuffed out immediately. It was an awesome twist but the least interesting character killed the most interesting.

[WendyCR72]

Her one scene with Wesley was great and I regret he didn't get to blackmail/coherse her longer. We got a glimpse of his power and overt ruthlessness only to have it snuffed out immediately. It was an awesome twist but the least interesting character killed the most interesting.

 

Hear, hear. As I'd said elsewhere, I think Fisk - trying to rebuild from inside prison - could know Wesley had a twin brother (who'd help Fisk so the brother could get revenge on Karen or whatever!) and, voila! The actor is back!

 

Clichéd? Well, yes. Done on soaps? Sure. But since the source material for this show is comic-book based, which also kills and revives characters at will, and well...why not?

[zxy556575]

I'll be honest, I thought she was the weakest part of the show. I was really irritated when the awesome and very useful Claire was sidelined while Karen was given more and more screen-time. 

 

The fact that she manipulated Ben into taking a huge risk that ultimately cost him his life has been covered by others, so I'll address my other major issue with her character -- namely WHY was she hired by this neonate law firm with no money and no clients? It makes no sense to me. A firm with no clients has no need for a secretary, especially one who doesn't work. Seriously, what value does Karen add to their legal practice? From what I can see, she was getting paid to pursue her vendetta against Fisk, even after Matt explicitly told her not to do so.

 

Are they even going to address the fact that she bought a bunch of junk at that auction and charged it to the firm's account? Will there be consequences, for her or the firm, or is it no biggie in comic book land when your non-working secretary blows thousands on unapproved, unnecessary purchases? 

 

I was also annoyed by the way the writers pretended she'd been in Foggy and Matt's lives forever rather than ... what, a few weeks? As the season wore on, it seemed like she was being magically elevated into a years-long important friendship rather than someone the just met literally a month ago. Someone who wormed her way into their firm by offering to work for free, and then informing Foggy the next day that actually, she absolutely intends to be paid, thank you very much. 

 

This show is my introduction to Marvel so perhaps there's residual affection for her from the comics/other sources that I'm missing, but she bugged the shit out of me from the pilot on. Her personality swings from tremulous and cowering to shrewd and manipulative but I'm not buying either extreme. She meddles, drinks, badgers, and causes trouble for everyone around her. Phooey.

 

I certainly hope she used her settlement money to pay the firm back for the non-working crap she bought, but since she single-mindedly focuses only on herself and her desires, she probably "forgot."

[The Kings Foot]

People keep saying she's naive. That part of it. But there are other words that can be used for her behavior. Like Narrow minded and Selfish and manipulative.

 

Now I use these words literally. Her mind has a very narrow focus and she puts her self first.  Now these are not  bad qualities by themselves. Living in Hells Kitchen they may even be necessary survival tactics.   But what it means is she can very thoughtlessly get the people around her killed just becuase she was pursuing her agenda.  

 

And she's always been this way. Like in episode one, dont you think its a good idea to tell your lawyer that just sprung you from jail that you have evidence of criminal activity ? Non disclosure agreement become invalid when a criminal case is pursued.  And then not telling her lawyers about her meeting with the Company's lawyers.  Quite simply she didnt trust Matt and Foggy to have her best interests at heart despite ample evidence to the contrary. Probably becuase she's gotten so used to only relying on herself and her interests. 

 

And she's manipulative.  We saw that up front with Ben and FIsk's mom.  But we also saw it episode one where she undressed right in front of Matt. No one would do that . At minimum they turn thier back . Unless you really wanted to test  just how blind Matt was.  And what would be the follow through if Matt had shown some reaction ?

 

And there is Foggy. She knew fully well that Foggy had a thing for her and she didnt, but decided to take advantage of that attention, right up until Ms Cardenas said he was in love with her. At which point she went  "oh shit" and started backing off from Foggy. and on Ep 11 switched her true attention to Matt.

 

Luckily for us the writers decided to give  Foggy another romantic interest  or we could have had some serious fallout from that bit. 

 

And finally I dislike her repeatedly asking Ben if he was still mad at her. Ben was to much of a gentlemen. But she really crossed the line and expected to be forgiven for it very easily.  Maybe  becuase she's pretty men have forgiven her easily all the time, and she was shocked that Ben seemed to have better principles than that. 

 

In short. If Karen were a real person Id advise staying far away from her. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by The Kings Foot

[Bluethcs24]

Haven't been able to stand her from very early on.  She grates! Her voice, her naivete, her whininess...doesn't do it for me.  What she did to Ben was so shitty. Yes he was a grown man with his own choices but she took him to Fisk's mom without his consent under the guise of helping him with his wife.  Didn't Fisk already try to kill you bitch? Did you forget that? Maybe try being covert.  And the way she ignored the advice from everyone around her to keep pursuing that lead was so annoying.   From what I've heard about the source material, she will be around for a while so I hope either the character or actress gets better or I may have to stop watching.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Bluethcs24

[supposebly]

She was actually my favorite character. I loved her stubbornness, her sheer pigheadedness. Of course, these are not necessarily good character bits but what I liked overall in this show that the so-called good guys weren't very good and the so-called bad guys had their moments too.

So, yes, it was terrible what she did to Ben and she was at least in part responsible for his death. But she just got lucky. If Wesley had not underestimated her, she would have been the first victim of her own actions.

No one was going to come out of this unscathed. Elena's death was partially on Foggy and I was actually quite worried about Foggy's not-girlfriend Marci. They needed help and they used it. It wasn't like they left themselves out of the line of fire. I'm also quite surprised that Claire made it out alive.

[ribboninthesky1]

Haven't been able to stand her from very early on.  She grates! Her voice, her naivete, her whininess...doesn't do it for me.  What she did to Ben was so shitty. Yes he was a grown man with his own choices but she took him to Fisk's mom without his consent under the guise of helping him with his wife.  Didn't Fisk already try to kill you bitch? Did you forget that? Maybe try being covert.  And the way she ignored the advice from everyone around her to keep pursuing that lead was so annoying.   From what I've heard about the source material, she will be around for a while so I hope either the character or actress gets better or I may have to stop watching.

 

Yes at the bolded.  For me, a lot could have been forgiven and hand-waved if she'd actually tried some stealth. I assume she's still alive because 1) the showrunners clearly like the character, and 2) she's canon. But mostly #1.    

[Snipsa]

Just finished the first season and Karen wasthe only character I couldn't warm up to.

She seemed to hold no accountability for her actions and just made some of the dumbest decisions possible.

It was definitely all in the writing as I thought the actress did her best with what she was given and even rose above the script on many occasions, she just couldn't save the character from all the shit that was piled on her.

I really hope they'll make her accountable in the next season (and not just for Ben's death). Other than Karen I adored the show and thought it was very high up the list of my fave's for this season. And probably my favourite comic-book based show yet.

Now to marathon through Jessica Jones...

[ForeverAlone]

I have to say after watching Daredevil twice, I have a decidedly mixed opinion about Karen Page. On the one hand, I do like her strength of conviction, and I like the fact that she was able to take care of herself against Wesley (and that she struggled with feelings of guilt afterward). But on the other hand, I found her deeply annoying and self serving at times.Many people have already talked about her actions with tricking Ben to see Fisk's mother, when he told her he needed to get out and take care of his wife. But there were plenty of other things that annoyed the crap out of me when it came to her. Most of her conviction seemed to be more about the fact that Fisk upended her life. Yeah, he killed Danny, but considering his wife seemed willing to move on, her anger seemed more about her. Just like her anger at Fisk after Elena Cardena's death. Of course, i could see that she could have felt some guilt after encouraging Elena to not take the doubled offer that resulted in her death. The advice to not take the deal at that point seemed to be more about "winning" rather than taking the money and running out of a broken down building. The advice was certainly not given with thoughts of anyone's safety and the fact that Fisk was more than willing to kill people who get in his way. Then her reaction when Matt and Foggy were going through their crises of conscience seemed way more self serving. Yeah she wanted to know what was going on (hopefully to help), but her main concern seemed to be that they weren't acting fast enough on Fisk. She really didn't seem to understand or appreciate that those two had their own crap they were dealing with, and they needed the time and space to work through it. Sometimes (particularly during episode 11), I just wanted to yell at her to shut up and that it was not always all about her. It's not like Foggy or Matt could forget about Fisk. And it's not like they didn't have time still. They really weren't working against a ticking clock. 

Edited December 16, 2015 by ForeverAlone

[VCRTracking]

I think now that she's a reporter, all those annoying things she does to get involved into cases are better because they're part of her actual job now! Also as many have posted on the episode threads she is way better by herself and away from Matt.

Edited March 21, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Grace284]

I love Karen, and she is more suited to journalism, but it made me laugh that her editor hired her to do an exposé on the murder of three people and she ends up writing a feelgood lifestyle piece about how everyone is their own hero.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Grace284

[that one guy]

I love this show so much, and Karen is a big reason why. The scene in "The Path of the Righteous" where she kills Wesley is the most amazing thing I've seen on television - if this counts as television, and just keeps getting better in retrospect. It's not just because that's not where I was expecting that scene to go - at all! - but because the showrunners realized how spectacularly well that scene worked and have just run with it in Season 2. This whole debate about killing people - with Matt, Elektra and Frank representing different points on a spectrum - is all about that scene. The moment where Karen and Matt have their falling out after she asks what the difference is between saving lives and making sure they don't have to be saved in the first place, where Matt thinks she's talking about Punisher, but really she's talking about herself, just made the show for me. Deb Woll is just killing it. I know some people feel that the character is just a horrible person, but I like that about her. She agrees! Her actions last season may have made the world a better place. They also got people killed. She's not unaware of people's concerns, she's wracked by guilt about the same issues.

 

I'm only through Episode 8 as I write this - I'm hoping Matt finally stops being an asshat and tells Karen the truth. This whole "I'm lying to you to protect you" trope has got to go. You can't protect Karen anyway. She's going to get into trouble no matter what. Karen with a mystery is like a cat with a half finished knit sweater . . . must . . . unravel . . .

[Mars477]

I love Karen, and she is more suited to journalism, but it made me laugh that her editor hired her to do an exposé on the murder of three people and she ends up writing a feelgood lifestyle piece about how everyone is their own hero.

She really isn't.  Just judging from this season she's much better off as the private investigator for some law firm, because her actual writing sucks horribly.

 

And hey, we already know of one incredibly acerbic PI who could show her the ropes.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Mars477

[Grace284]

Speaking of lying, what I really want to see is the reveal of Karen's lies. Partially because I just want to know what went on with her, dammit, but I think it would be a really interesting confrontation with all three of the main cast. While Karen knows Matt is lying to her, Matt and Foggy don't know she's been lying to them. And not just about Wesley, but about her past, and while I tend to agree that it doesn't really matter now, it would be a blow for both of them. Particularly for Foggy, given he only has two friends (he should get out more) and they've both been lying to him. I feel like Matt wouldn't be as forgiving as Karen might be of his secrets, but he really has no defence when it comes to lying to your friends.

 

Basically I just want more fights.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Grace284

[FurryFury]

I was expecting for Karen to tell Frank about her killing Wesley, but I guess they're saving it for season 3 and Matt.

[VCRTracking]

Fisk might find out first and then she's going to be really in trouble.

 

When Stan Lee first wrote Daredevil he essentially repeated the same love triangle that he created with Iron Man's main characters with Matt-Karen-Foggy being the same as Tony-Pepper-Happy. The main hero and his comic relief sidekick and they're both in love with the beautiful secretary. It's funny that Jon Favreau played both Foggy in the Ben Affleck Daredevil and Happy in MCU's Iron Man, while Pepper and Karen are played by actresses who are both physically similar(tall, thin with long straight hair).

[zxy556575]

I'll say this for Karen -- she's sure divisive!  ;)

 

I think there have been posts in the Unpopular Opinions thread about liking her and not liking her being unpopular. If anyone can figure out how to create a poll, it'd be interesting to see.

Edited March 24, 2016 by lordonia

[FurryFury]

It really depends on what do you like about the show. I think most people who dislike Karen fall in one of two camps: people who loved season 1 and the Fisk stuff and can't forgive her for Ben or Tumblr posters who obsess about race and feel like she's to blame for Elektra's death and Claire's leaving. Also, a lot of people in general don't like Karen/Matt romance and, as usual, the female is the one to blame in such cases.

 

From what I've seen, she's been rehabilitated a lot in season 2 and has a lot of fans, especially now with the emerging Frank/Karen fandom (I can't believe how fast it sprang up).

Edited March 25, 2016 by FurryFury

[Bec]

I don't like the Karen/Matt romance, but it's totally Matt's fault for screwing it up. Karen was far too patient and adoring with Matt. It kind of frustrated me for a while because she continued to be patient and adoring even when he sucked. I was like "Hells yeah! Go Karen!" when she finally had enough and gave him some hell.

 

Around the same time she also lost the wide-eyed naivete and whininess that made her so annoying in season one. So a win for Karen all around.

 

I hope she doesn't revert back to full adoration now that she knows he's Daredevil. I love the new Karen that calls Matt on his bullshit.

 

All my favorite Karen moments are when she plays against the "nice girl" appearance and show that she has some bite. Like when she pretended she was going for a kiss with Grotto and gave him the finger instead.

[that one guy]

It's been pretty clear that Karen has some bite since she gouged that one guy's eye out with her thumb in the series premiere.

[Dizzychickstar]

Yeah, not a big Karen fan, but I don't hate her. Was actually looking for an unpopular opinion poll to post in. While I'm glad she's not damseled, I think she's more dangerous than some of the vigilante superheroes. She's rash when she's "on the case" and this puts herself and others in danger.

I like her and Matt and Foggy as a team, tho and actually thought she and Foggy might be a nice pairing earlier on. I'm only into s2, epi 4 tho.

[RainbowBrite]

I don't hate Karen either, but what I do find distracting is how the actress often seems out of breath. I was marathoning yesterday so I can't remember specifically which episode I finally noticed it, but it was somewhere around S2 E4. Karen also always seems on the verge of tears, which I understand may be reflective of her inner struggles, but it seems excessive to me. I like her character and her motivation but those two things bother me.

[Wouldofshouldof]

I like her (and Deborah Ann Woll), but you're right about the tears.  I watched some interview clip on Youtube where she had to talk about her character's motivation or growth or some such, and she was on the verge of tears then!

[BooBear]

I just streamed season one and I am torn on Karen. She and her actress drive me crazy. She does always look on the verge of tears, has big eye syndrome, and if I had hair like that -- which kept falling in my face -- I would have a headache daily.  But the character has some awesome bite. And for the "damsel" she is really a strong character. I could not believe that she killed Wesley like that.  But I also get the feeling that at the end of season one anyway... she truly loves and cares for both Foggy and Matt in a very pure kind way. If I ever get to season two I will come back with comments. 

[johntfs]

I like her pretty well on Daredevil but she's much more interesting and better served on The Punisher.  Karen Page and Frank Castle have immense chemistry on that show, just like they did in Season Two of Daredevil.

[Paradigm14]

I actually wanted them to kill Karen Page and keep Ben. I just wasn't very fond of the actress or the character as portrayed and his actor was a lot better. I loved her in the comic books, but she's way different here. Ironically, I loved Elektra, especially in the early comic books, but I thought they playedf the spoiled, entited rich girl way too hard.  It was hard to watch at first, and she was good as far as the martial arts, but not as good as the books portrayed.

I kind of felt like people just sort of kept coddling Karen and giving her stuff because she was the blonde girl. I didn't buy her worthiness. Or any promise as a journalist.

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, Paradigm14 said:

I kind of felt like people just sort of kept coddling Karen and giving her stuff because she was the blonde girl. I didn't buy her worthiness. Or any promise as a journalist.

See, I'm coming at these shows a bit backward.  I watched Jessica Jones, then The Defenders and just finished The Punisher.  I'm currently midway through Season Two of Daredevil.  I love Karen's scenes with Frank Castle but her scenes so far with Matt Murdock kind of irritate me because Matt Murdock seems to treat her more like a pet he has sex with than a true partner or friend.  I suspect that's going to annoy the piss out of me when I finally do watch Season One of Daredevil.

One thing that's pretty clear is that if you're a villain, don't fuck with Karen Page.  Not only is she armed and willing to shoot your ass, you'll get Daredevil and The Punisher coming to cripple and/or kill you.

Edited January 21, 2018 by johntfs

[Lady Calypso]

I feel like I'm going to be re-binging both seasons of Daredevil after I get around to watching The Punisher because I remember really loving Karen in both seasons. I can understand her not being everyone's cup of tea, but after Matt's obsession with Elektra in season 2 and his obsession with keeping secrets from everyone, I find Karen more of a breath of fresh air for me. I wonder if I'll feel the same way if I do go back to rewatch. I do know that season 2 had my favourite DD pairing of Karen and Frank, so I'm super excited to watch her in The Punisher now. 

As for Karen and Matt, I think I remember shipping them in season 1, but once Frank popped into the picture and once I realized that Matt was never going to care for Karen on the level that she deserves, I stopped shipping them pretty quickly. 

[slf]

Karen's my favorite of the main cast with Foggy a close second. She's a complex character, as flawed as she is brave and compassionate with her own dark secrets. When I started watching Daredevil I was afraid she was going to be either the endlessly supportive love interest with no story of her own (or one of the other two roles for comic book women: seductive sometimes ally or super ninja assassin).

I, for one, love Deborah Ann Woll, and have since True Blood.

I do agree with the criticism that her bond with Matt seemed forced at first and that she and Foggy seemed closer and had a more natural rapport. Personally, I think the show has done a great job of combining the law firm stuff with the shadowy nighttime superhero stuff and I think that plays a role. Foggy knows but Karen doesn't. 

I also agree that Karen works better with Frank Castle in every possible sense. There's a "you're such a sweet and good girl" vibe to Matt's feelings for Karen that I personally find a little reductive and even...condescending isn't exactly right but it's close. I don't think Matt means it that way but he doesn't really get Karen and it effects their relationship both as friends and when they were being pushed together as love interests. Castle appreciates that she's "all heart" but he really sees her toughness and shades of grey (loved the scene where they talk about her gun, the kind she chose, and what that says to him).

[wrlord]

So  I know this is ridiculously shallow... but I get really distracted by all those warts and moles all over her.

[slf]

Heh. I love them. I love moles and freckles in general.

[mledawn]

On 3/13/2019 at 2:31 AM, wrlord said:

So  I know this is ridiculously shallow... but I get really distracted by all those warts and moles all over her.

I legit read this and was so confused, I had to go look for a photo of DAW, and then I had to go through many photos... Yeah, no, I don't have that issue.

I think I was annoyed with Karen as a character when I first watched Daredevil. I agree with what you say @slf - it's almost condescending the way Matt coddles her, and it's irritating the way she almost lets him do it. Frank has a totally different dynamic with her, one that's much more equal and respectful. I'm going to miss these characters, but Frank and Karen in particular.

Edited March 14, 2019 by mledawn
"I think I was definitely"? What the heck.