S01.E03: Anna Regina

[kieyra]

Briefly, but I'm thrilled with how much of the book dialogue they are keeping intact. This has been an amazing episode for that. And Rylance comes alive when Cromwell is dealing with any members of the aristocracy.

"They could tell Boccacio a tale, those sinners at Wolf Hall."

Edited February 5, 2015 by kieyra

[Meredith Quill]

Episode Synopsis:

 

Cromwell has Parliament acknowledge Henry as head of the Church of England.

[brisbydog]

I adore this show. It is the one program I absolutely watch just to catch the nuance in facial expressions. Casting is amazing, although I can't tell Weston, Brereton and Norris apart. Thank goodness Francis Bryon wears that eye patch!

[kieyra]

Some more thoughts:

 

Great scenes with Cromwall and any number of women: Johane, Mary Boleyn, Jane Seymour and Anne herself. I can't remember if the scene where he imagines himself touching Anne's bosom is lifted directly from the book(s)--if anything, I recall that Cromwell wasn't particularly interested in her in that way. But I could see him trying to imagine what it was like to be someone who was smitten with her. Or just generally admiring her craft with seduction.

 

The Cromwell/Mary B./William Stafford scene was fantastic and just about blow for blow from the books, as was the Henry Percy confrontation. And I love Uncle Norfolk, of course.

 

I see now that a scene from the trailer with a woman in bed saying 'aren't you afraid'? was Johane not Liz. I'd argued that Liz wasn't the worrier type, when the trailer was released. I seem to remember that Johane was also fairly no-nonsense and not prone to being weepy either, even when they ended their affair, but I suppose she's meant to represent his heart and domestic life (for the moment). 

 

I wonder if we will see Christophe. I'm already shaky on whether the Cromwell 'son' we're seeing is Geoffrey or Richard, I have Rafe pegged at least. 

[sugarbaker design]

I wonder if we will see Christophe.

 

 

Fingers crossed!

[Primetimer]

Cromwell makes it possible for Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn to finally get married, which couldn't possibly have negative repercussions, right?

Read the story

[HoodlumSheep]

Well, the only thing i got out of this episode is that Cromwell almost killed a guy with some mad knife (?) skills.

I'm completely lost. I have no idea what's going on.

All that I know is that I ship Cromwell with all the ladies except for his sister-in-law. And yes, I know it's bonkers to ship characters/historical figures, and I know they'll never come true. I'm shipper trash when it comes to this show, forgive me.

Okay, here's my weekly attempt to figure out what's going on:

Were they voting on the bill to separate the church/ basically create the church of england?

Some scandal with the seymour (?) house.

Cromwell is fond of Jane Seymour for some reason.

Mary put the moves on Thomas.

Thomas almost knifed a guy.

Anne became queen (was she already secretly pregnant?)

Queen Catherine yelled at him. Her daughter was about to keel over.

Thomas Moore gave up some sort of church power. ???

Cromwell had a weird daydream about Anne.
Henry got drunk.

They were in France at some point for some reason?

Cromwell is promoted to keeper of the jewels or something.

Percy pretty much got a verbal smackdown from Cromwell.

There's a prophet nun lady of some sorts.

Some guy that Cromwell knew got burned at the stake for being a heretic.


Please don't feel obligated to help me figure stuff out, if you don't want to.I'm a hopeless case. I'm gonna have to read a bunch of the review/summaries to help me understand this stuff.


*Read the PreviouslyTv review; that helped a little. Still confused if Anne was that pregnant during her coronation or if they did a couple months flash forward.

[jjj]

Anne Boleyn was indeed pregnant -- around six months -- at the date of her coronation on June 1.  Her daughter Elizabeth was born at the start of September.

 

The books are amazing, if you have time to read them -- this series is doing an amazing job of capturing their atmosphere as well as their scenes. 

[dr pepper]

They were not voting to split the church, at least not then. They were voting to assert that in England, the monarch was the head of the church. They weren't contemplating any change in doctrine, just control. For now, it was merely convenient that Henry would no longer have to ask the pope what was proper christian behavior, he had the authority to do that himself. And so, he permitted himself to divorce Katherine. For the most part, Henry remained a staunch opponent of the new religious movements collectively known as protestantism.

It is true, however, that the pope regarded this action as a schism pretty soon afterward and that english theologians continued to push doctrine in a more protestant direction. But still today, anglicanism is a lot closer to roman catholicism than it is to lutheranism.

Edited April 20, 2015 by dr pepper

[KLovestoShop]

I love the rich production values of this show. For some reason, the reviews from the UK complained that the show was so "dark, with regards to how they lit the scenes, that they couldn't see the characters. I don't find that to be the case, except for a couple of scenes. And Rylance's portrayal is so wonderful. He can tell a story with just his face, without uttering a single word.

[sugarbaker design]

I am loving Cromwell and Mary Boleyn's relationship!

 

Mary:  She’s selling herself by the inch. She wants cash presents for every advance above the knee.

 

Cromwell:  By the time he reaches her secret parts the country will be bankrupt.

 

A Man For All Seasons sure didn't mention Thomas More's penchant for flogging and burning at the stake.

[M. Darcy]

Well, the only thing i got out of this episode is that Cromwell almost killed a guy with some mad knife (?) skills.

That was Mary Boleyn's future husband he almost killed.

 

 

Some scandal with the seymour (?) house.

A big time scandal!  Jane's father, John Seymour, had an affair with his daughter in law (Edward's wife).

[kieyra]

Thomas Moore gave up some sort of church power. ???

 

 

I believe he was handing over the Great Seal of the office of Lord Chancellor and resigning. Basically quitting before he got fired. I think it's more of a lawyerly position than a churchy one. Yes, these are technical terms.

Edited April 20, 2015 by kieyra

[kitmerlot1213]

A Man For All Seasons sure didn't mention Thomas More's penchant for flogging and burning at the stake.

 

I don't think the real Thomas More was this gleeful either--the author is working overtime to show him as a villain and Cromwell as the hero, the only man who could help Henry get what he wanted.

Edited April 20, 2015 by kitmerlot1213

[sugarbaker design]

I think both More and Cromwell were more villain than hero, and this production is illustrating this in a very entertaining way.

[jjj]

"A Man for All Seasons" is a superb piece of theatre and an outstanding film -- but indeed, portrays Sir Thomas More as a hero. He, like many major figures in history, was more complicated than the play/film portrayed him. 

 

Thomas Cromwell has always been best known as a villain/thug who did the heavy lifting regarding the dissolution of the monasteries, which became possible because of the Act of Supremacy (making Henry VIII head of the Church of England).  I know the history quite well, but even I was lured into the prose of the books to forget what Cromwell was doing in the later 1530s -- every now and then Mantel (the author) would slip in a reminder*, but Cromwell's major activities were always in the background, while the book lived inside his head.  I never would have believed that a novel would be able to portray Cromwell as anything other than a villain.  These books prove me so wrong! 

 

If you want some sense of the magnitude of the impact of the "dissolution of the monasteries," just look up that phrase.  If you want to get a sense of the history in another novel, "Dissolution", by C.J. Sansom, is a mystery set inside one of those monasteries, with one of the lawyers working for Henry VIII the main character. 

 

ETA:  *I loved Cromwell's reaction to seeing his (now famous) portrait by Hans Holbein, near the end of "Wolf Hall":  Cromwell: "I look like a murderer." Son Gregory responds: "Didn't you know?" 

Edited April 20, 2015 by jjj

[gazebo]

I finally caught an episode of "Wolf Hall" last night.  I thought I would wait until it came out on DVD but I couldn't resist.

 

I was struck by how secretly gleeful Mary Boleyn is.  I liked her scenes with Cromwell.  They look like two conspirators that were only happy when they could interact with each other while putting on a more reserved face to the outside world.  I couldn't believe Mary tried to seduce Cromwell and Cromwell was falling for it until William made a most startling appearance.  Was William Stafford, Mary's first husband?  He didn't look particularly shocked or outraged to catch his wife kissing another man.  Interesting.......!

 

Anne Boleyn is a bit unpleasant.  She is willful and egotistical and kind of mean.  I found it hard to envision this Anne Boleyn being able to seduce King Henry away from his wife and from the church.  She had strong, accusing eyes and her voice sounded sharp.  It's too bad that they didn't show any intimate scenes between her and King Henry.  But of course, this show is all about Cromwell and his relationships to the king and to the Boleyns.  This show isn't really all about Anne Boleyn.

 

I don't know how many episodes are in this show.  But I'll probably catch the whole thing when it comes out on DVD.  So far, I do like what I see.

[M. Darcy]

Was William Stafford, Mary's first husband?  He didn't look particularly shocked or outraged to catch his wife kissing another man.  Interesting.......!

He was her second husband but they aren't married yet.

[sugarbaker design]

Was William Stafford, Mary's first husband? He didn't look particularly shocked or outraged to catch his wife kissing another man. Interesting.......!

 

At this point and time in the narrative Mary Boleyn has yet to marry anyone.

[M. Darcy]

At this point and time in the narrative Mary Boleyn has yet to marry anyone.

 

I don't think they have mentioned him but her first husband, William Carey, has already died.  They were married while she was Henry's mistress back around the 1520s.

[duVerre]

I'm enjoying the heck out of Charity Wakefield (Mary), especially the way she rapped out "my sister is a notorious virgin!" 

 

I still have a problem with the direction, which to me is overly-deliberate, uniformly paced and solemn. (I think that's why the character of Mary works so well for me; she's more extraverted and flamboyant than most of the actors, and that gives her scenes a different spark.) The dialogue was extremely sharp, though, especially More and Cromwell's exchange of threats ("My turn, don't you think?")

 

All that said, I have read the books--twice--but could not recall anything about William Brereton. I had to go back and search through the pages to remind myself.  I can't imagine how mysterious his sudden appearance must have been to a viewer who didn't know the books or who wasn't an expert in the Tudors. Nothing wrong with doing research to augment what we see the series, but we shouldn't have to do it to understand basic information. 

 

Can I ask for some help in two different matters? (1) It's my impression that this episode gave Thomas Brodie-Sangster his first bit of dialogue. Am I right or wrong? (2) Can someone help me with "the holy maid of Kent"? What was Cromwell's motive in seeking her out? I am obviously a little bit clueless about it.

Edited April 20, 2015 by duVerre

[doodlebug]

 

At this point and time in the narrative Mary Boleyn has yet to marry anyone.

As noted above, Mary is, at this point in time, a widow.  She also has two children, Catherine and Henry, who were born during the time she was Henry's mistress and there is plenty of historical speculation that Henry was their biologic father.  Both of them were reported to strongly resemble various Tudor family members.  Her daughter, Catherine, was a lady in waiting to Queen Elizabeth I (her first cousin on the Boleyn side, possibly half sister via Henry).

Edited April 21, 2015 by doodlebug

[MisterGlass]

I haven't read the books on which this series is based, though I have a decent grounding in the history, and have seen various films about the events (A Man for All Seasons etc.)  I agree with the poster above who commented on how surprising it is to see a less villainous portrait of Cromwell.  He'll never be a hero, but he is a very good agent.

 

There is a lot of subtlety in the acting to show when he's sincere and when he's manipulating.  He's watching everyone, in every scene.  The moment with the knife speaks volumes.  I don't know if that's in the book or a credit to the screenwriter, but it shows that he is dangerous, prepared, and quick.  In spite of the veneer of respectability, he is someone who has fought his way into his position, and is marked by the struggle.  His verbal takedown of Harry Percy showed how well he can mix business and back alley dealings.

 

He and More are two sides of the same coin, and they play off each other well.

 

I can't decide at this point if Thomas just likes Jane or is already thinking of future roles for her.

[kitmerlot1213]

As noted above, Mary is, at this point in time, a widow.  She also has two children, Catherine and Henry, who were born during the time she was Henry's mistress and there is plenty of historical speculation that Henry was their biologic father.  Both of them were reported to strongly resemble various Tudor family members.  Her daughter, Catherine, was a lady in waiting to Queen Elizabeth I (her first cousin on the Boleyn side, possibly half sister via Henry).

 

Wasn't William Carey also a relative of Henry VIII--and one of his favorites--and that could be where the family resemblance comes in?

 

I like that this version of Mary Boleyn has a little more spunk then any other version I've ever seen-she clearly has her sister Anne's number, which she doesn't mind sharing with Cromwell :):)

[IndianPaintbrush]

I can't decide at this point if Thomas just likes Jane or is already thinking of future roles for her.

I thought the same thing.  Cromwell is playing the game, but it seemed he disliked Anne from the moment he met her.  Every time he looks at her I can see wheels turning in his head.

 

I haven't read the books, but I've always been fascinated with Anne Boleyn and I think Claire Foy is doing a good job with a difficult role.  I do hope we get to see more of Anne's intellectual side as opposed to just her Mean Girl side.

Edited April 21, 2015 by IndianPaintbrush

[LiveenLetLive]

I just want to add how much I am enjoying the series, Rylance is pretty wonderful in the role I think. I haven't read the novels, but I have been watching every Tudor doc available on youtube, and the docs that PBS is running as well. I'm glad to see that I am not the only American obsessed with English history. One interesting bit I watched was Mantel talking about Cromwell and how little is known about his previous life before coming to court and nothing is really known about his private life--kudos to Mantel for creating such a vivid character from scant evidence. Regarding the breaking up of the monasteries and the effect that this had on the population is explored in the wonderful "Tudor Monastery Farm" a BBC series available to watch on youtube (in fact, there is a whole series of "Farms" where a trio of archeologists and a historian "live" in various time periods on the land, and discuss the history, and techniques used to farm in that period in addition to the social history. I have watched several of the series and have become obsessed--I highly recommend them to any fellow history buff.)

Edited April 21, 2015 by LiveenLetLive

[Maire]

I am a Rylance fan having seen him in several Broadway productions. The holy maid of Kent was cast with him in Jerusalem, at least on Broadway. You might also remember her from Luthur, I think it was season 2.

[lucindabelle]

This anne has more charm than the anne in the adaptation in broadway.

I've yet to see any film or play that suggests Anne's appeal which must surely have been considerable.

[Constantinople]

The best episode so far, IMO, but also the episode in which most of the characters appeared to be alive.

 

He and More are two sides of the same coin, and they play off each other well.

I got an odd kick out of the fact that they agreed the Holy Maid of Kent was a fraud.

 

 

I thought the same thing.  Cromwell is playing the game, but it seemed he disliked Anne from the moment he met her.  Every time he looks at her I can see wheels turning in his head.

 

I haven't read the books, but I've always been fascinated with Anne Boleyn and I think Claire Foy is doing a good job with a difficult role.  I do hope we get to see more of Anne's intellectual side as opposed to just her Mean Girl side.

I wonder if Cromwell sees a little too much Anne in him, or perhaps he sees a little too much Cromwell in Anne. They both wanted to lord it over Thomas More, and they were both honest with each other about it.

 

 

I've yet to see any film or play that suggests Anne's appeal which must surely have been considerable.

It's a bit like playing Helen of Troy, except at least Helen was mythical.

[Crisopera]

lucindabelle - probably the most charming Anne on film is Genevieve Bujold in Anne of theThousand Days (1969).  Vanessa Redgrave is probably the most beautiful Anne (in A Man for All Seasons) but it's just a cameo.

[sugarbaker design]

probably the most charming Anne on film is Genevieve Bujold in Anne of theThousand Days (1969).

 

 

My introduction to English history!  I always picture GB when thinking about Anne.  And yes, I'm that old.  I picture Vanessa Redgrave and Glenda Jackson for Mary, Queen of Scots and Elizabeth I.

[lucindabelle]

I got a touch of it it in The Other Boleyn Girl but only a touch.

Just once, just once! I'd like to see it.

[duVerre]

 

I got an odd kick out of the fact that they agreed the Holy Maid of Kent was a fraud.

 

Can someone explain to me the plot point re the Holy Maid? I'm afraid I'm in the dark. 

[LiveenLetLive]

The real Anne Boleyn's true "sin" was to be both proud and ambitious, and she didn't hide her ambition (or act coy about her sexual charms) like other women during the Tudor times and that is what really did her in IMO. Is anyone else reminded of Sex and the City when they see that famous portrait of Anne wearing her "B" necklace, LOL? 

[lucindabelle]

I just feel that all we ever see Is proud and ambitious, I get that, what I don't get is her charm and hold ovwr henry that made him wait all those years for her,

[meep.meep]

I'm starting to like Rylance a little more.  What I love is production putting in references to the light and how hard it is to see clearly.  Every time Cromwell is given something to read, he shifts a little to get it into better light.   What I'm hating are the large number of scenes with no background noise.  These people lived all crowded together - there should be noise almost always.

[blackwing]

I thought this third episode was slightly better than the first two, but I am still finding it incredibly boring.  I think both this series and the books are very polarising.  Some people really loved the book and seem to also really love this series.  Some people really hated the book and also seem to hate this series.

 

I am a student of Tudor history and I am having a hard time following exactly what is going on in this series.  For someone who has no knowledge at all, I cannot imagine what they are thinking.  There is often zero explanation of a scene.  The scenes jump so quickly and there is no set up of what is going on.  The last two minutes of the show illustrate that.  It jumps from Anne in a church to Anne in a boat to Anne in bed telling Cromwell she is happy and then oddly to Cromwell watching a man being burned.  I have absolutely no idea who that man being burned is and if he was referenced earlier in the show, but in the end, I decided I didn't care enough to figure out.

 

That pretty much sums up my feelings about this show.  Often times I cannot figure out what is going on, but realise I don't particularly care.  There are only three episodes left, right?  I find this portrayal of Anne Boleyn to be so unnecessarily nasty.  She is just nasty to everyone around her, and I have a hard time figuring out why Henry would want her.  Her sister in this portrayal seems 100 times more desirable than this Anne, who could freeze a snowball in hell.  I think I may stick around and watch just to hopefully see her get what's coming to her (and not have to wait for a purported season 2 if one is planned).

 

I also take issues with the portrayal of Mary Tudor as suffering from some kind of mental disease.  That tremulous voice, the head twitching and shaking.  Ugh.  Mary may have been a sickly young woman but I don't think there is any evidence she was ever cuckoo, and this portrayal makes it sound like there is something wrong with her in the head.

[Dirtybubble]

I also take issues with the portrayal of Mary Tudor as suffering from some kind of mental disease.  That tremulous voice, the head twitching and shaking.  Ugh.  Mary may have been a sickly young woman but I don't think there is any evidence she was ever cuckoo, and this portrayal makes it sound like there is something wrong with her in the head.

 

Yah know I didn't really see it like that.  I saw it as a young lady, on the ill side, but still having a very sharp tongue & mind.  Didn't she eventually die of ovarian cancer or something similar to that?  Still it was interesting to see this pretty young lady who will one day become Bloody Mary!

 

Still enjoying this show very much!  Thanks to the poster who explained the painting in Wolf Hall at the end of the episode.  I assume that was the same one Cromwell and Henry were looking at when Henry was tipsy?  At first I didn't recognize the faces in the painting.

 

I too am enjoying the scenes with Mary Bolyn and Cromwell.  What a nice friendship they have.  Good friends seem rare in this time period what with everyone either getting their heads lopped off or burned at the stake.  Good grief!

 

Oh and what a bitch Anne is being portrayed as!  I would guess it takes a takes a strong person to position herself as queen but gah she is just coming across as cruel.  I wonder if that's what she was really like. 

 

 

[JudyObscure]

I just feel that all we ever see Is proud and ambitious, I get that, what I don't get is her charm and hold ovwr henry that made him wait all those years for her,

I suppose we the common folk aren't really supposed to see it, that seems to have been part of her being hated by the masses.  They not only hated her for taking their true queen's place, but they thought she was skinny and not particularly beautiful or charming.  I agree with you that they should give us a hint of what it was that made Henry so besotted, whether it was because she reminded him of his nanny or had the same smile as his first girlfriend, a kitchen wench, or what. I want to know!

I wonder if that's what she was really like.

I know.  I realize my idea of Ann comes from  Norah Lofts novels.  How can we ever know the true answer to that when already "history," has presented a picture of Diana Princess of Wales which, I think, is not very accurate at all.

Edited April 21, 2015 by JudyObscure

[WhiteStumbler]

I read the books, but think that the TV adaptation has actually been an improvement for me. I am probably a bit dim when it comes to this time period, and I came to the books with zero exposure to any of the other interpretations I have seen mentioned (Man for All Seasons, etc), so seeing the words brought to life has made the characters and their motivations breath in a way the novels never did - I would spend so much time trying to figure out what was going on.

 

My take on the "holy maid" is that Cromwell sees her as a potential enemy, because she is talking smack about Henry and Anne, so he seeks to neutralize her by 1) gaining her confidence by posing as a potential 'customer', and 2) finding out who her patron / protector is.

 

I continue to be just blown away at the look and feel of each scene, the detail, everything. This dialogue had me just floored -

 

A new "star" has appeared.
Liz: ...and the last time it appeared was under King John and the cattle stopped breeding, the grass stopped growing, and the birds fell from the sky.

TC: whmmm, I'm sure if that happens we can reverse our policy.

 

A pragmatic, (relatively) modern man in an age of superstition and religious fanaticism. This was also driven home when TC used the threat of financial ruin to bring Anne's former suitor (Harry Percy?) to heel. Using bankers to threaten a member of the English aristocracy seems very Downton Abby 1900's, rather than Wolf Hall 1500's, to me. (ETA: I'm not saying that his actions weren't period appropriate, just that it was another example of how TC is an incarnation of change in a stratified and static world)

 

I am not seeing Anne as a bitch, though. Imperious + headstrong, but have you seen her family?

Edited April 21, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[Calamity Jane]

I thought this third episode was slightly better than the first two, but I am still finding it incredibly boring.  I think both this series and the books are very polarising.  Some people really loved the book and seem to also really love this series.  Some people really hated the book and also seem to hate this series.

 

I am a student of Tudor history and I am having a hard time following exactly what is going on in this series.  For someone who has no knowledge at all, I cannot imagine what they are thinking.  There is often zero explanation of a scene.  The scenes jump so quickly and there is no set up of what is going on.  The last two minutes of the show illustrate that.  It jumps from Anne in a church to Anne in a boat to Anne in bed telling Cromwell she is happy and then oddly to Cromwell watching a man being burned.  I have absolutely no idea who that man being burned is and if he was referenced earlier in the show, but in the end, I decided I didn't care enough to figure out.

 

That pretty much sums up my feelings about this show.  Often times I cannot figure out what is going on, but realise I don't particularly care.  There are only three episodes left, right?  I find this portrayal of Anne Boleyn to be so unnecessarily nasty.  She is just nasty to everyone around her, and I have a hard time figuring out why Henry would want her.  Her sister in this portrayal seems 100 times more desirable than this Anne, who could freeze a snowball in hell.  I think I may stick around and watch just to hopefully see her get what's coming to her (and not have to wait for a purported season 2 if one is planned).

 

I also take issues with the portrayal of Mary Tudor as suffering from some kind of mental disease.  That tremulous voice, the head twitching and shaking.  Ugh.  Mary may have been a sickly young woman but I don't think there is any evidence she was ever cuckoo, and this portrayal makes it sound like there is something wrong with her in the head.

Thank you, that really bothered me, too. I've read a lot of Tudor history but am far from an expert -- don't recall anything about her being fragile until later in her life. 

This episode, to me, was by far the best they've shown yet.  We finally see the toughness that it's obvious Cromwell must have possessed.  It's such a short series, I think they took a little too long to develop that part of his character, but it's good to see it finally show itself.  Loved the smackdowns, and yes, they seemed a little modern, but they certainly showed us the divide between the up-and-coming class Cromwell came from and the antiquated notions of the nobility/royalty.  

[duVerre]

 

My take on the "holy maid" is that Cromwell sees her as a potential enemy, because she is talking smack about Henry and Anne, so he seeks to neutralize her by 1) gaining her confidence by posing as a potential 'customer', and 2) finding out who her patron / protector is.

 

Thank you, WhiteStumbler!

[lucindabelle]

I suppose we the common folk aren't really supposed to see it, that seems to have been part of her being hated by the masses.  They not only hated her for taking their true queen's place, but they thought she was skinny and not particularly beautiful or charming.  I agree with you that they should give us a hint of what it was that made Henry so besotted, whether it was because she reminded him of his nanny or had the same smile as his first girlfriend, a kitchen wench, or what. I want to know!

 

 

I know.  I realize my idea of Ann comes from  Norah Lofts novels.  How can we ever know the true answer to that when already "history," has presented a picture of Diana Princess of Wales which, I think, is not very accurate at all.

The trouble with that is that the masses weren't privy to what Henry and the court see, and we, as viewers, ARE. And never once in any single adaptation or novel have I seen her portrayed as bewitching.

 

I get that she may not have been lovable or kind. But there should be something about her-- after all, Henry wasn't the first man to fall in love with her. She had to have something more than mere beauty. What was it?

 

it's even worse on Broadway where the Anne Boleyn is a total shrew.

[meep.meep]

 

I am a student of Tudor history and I am having a hard time following exactly what is going on in this series.  For someone who has no knowledge at all, I cannot imagine what they are thinking.  There is often zero explanation of a scene.  The scenes jump so quickly and there is no set up of what is going on.  The last two minutes of the show illustrate that.  It jumps from Anne in a church to Anne in a boat to Anne in bed telling Cromwell she is happy and then oddly to Cromwell watching a man being burned.  I have absolutely no idea who that man being burned is and if he was referenced earlier in the show, but in the end, I decided I didn't care enough to figure out.

Anne in a church - she's being crowned Queen.   With the crown that's usually only used for the monarch.

Anne in a boat - they are taking her to her confinement - as is said in dialog.

Anne in bed - she's waiting to have her baby.  She's happy because she's queen and she's pregnant.

Cromwell watching a man being burned.  The man is the same one who started reading the Bible in English during a church service earlier in the episode (I don't remember his name either).  He was sent to the Tower.  Cromwell met with him there and said he'd try to get him out.  He tried with different people but More was adamant.  The man was in several scenes.

[dr pepper]

This anne has more charm than the anne in the adaptation in broadway.

I've yet to see any film or play that suggests Anne's appeal which must surely have been considerable.

 

    I thought the movie "Anne of a Thousand Days" showed her as being sexually attractive through her aggressive, outgoing personality.

[kieyra]

Thank you, that really bothered me, too. I've read a lot of Tudor history but am far from an expert -- don't recall anything about her being fragile until later in her life. 

This episode, to me, was by far the best they've shown yet.  We finally see the toughness that it's obvious Cromwell must have possessed.  It's such a short series, I think they took a little too long to develop that part of his character, but it's good to see it finally show itself.  Loved the smackdowns, and yes, they seemed a little modern, but they certainly showed us the divide between the up-and-coming class Cromwell came from and the antiquated notions of the nobility/royalty.  

 

She had notorious 'women's troubles' (I guess bad menstrual cycles) from adolescence on, and what seemed to be a lot of emotional fallout from her father kicking her mother to the curb. I'm pretty sure the scene in both the book and the show was reflecting the menstrual problems, which, as I said, are reported to have started in adolescence, so that lines up. 

 

As for Mary being cuckoo--I think she pretty much lost it later in life, especially towards the end (after multiple imaginary pregnancies), and insanity ran in her close family (see: her maternal aunt 'Juana the Mad'). That said, she had a rough, rough life, and combined with her fanatical religious fervor (which also ran in the family) it's not too surprising that she cracked. 

 

All that said, as for the actress's choices--I think they were just that. It was a peculiar portrayal, for sure. Mary had very bad eyesight later in life, but I don't know how early it started. That could account for some of the head movement stuff? The childlike speech pattern and weird rhythm didn't seem to be anything but acting choices, and were not a part of the scene in the book (although her dialogue and the near-fainting spell were). 

 

I believe the scene primarily stood to show a contrast between tough-as-nails Katharine, and her teenage daughter Mary who was just beginning to hit some medical problems that would plague her for the rest of her life, and who was still reeling from her father essentially abandoning his family for Anne Boleyn. Mary's basically about to fall over from all of it, Katharine tells her to stand up straight, and pragmatic Cromwell gets the poor girl a chair. 

 

Book spoiler:

Katharine later castigates Cromwell for bringing her the chair, which again shows us how hardcore Katharine is and how badly Mary is coping. Mary is obviously quite grateful to Cromwell, which makes Cromwell wonder if anyone ever shows her any kindness. But again, I think it's all about showing how tough Katharine is, not about assassinating Mary's character.

 

TL;DR: If you take away the little-girl, singsong voice, I found this version of Mary *at that particular moment in her life* to be more realistic than her portrayal in The Tudors. 

Edited April 21, 2015 by kieyra

[MisterGlass]

I agree that protrayals of Anne tend to focus on negative aspects of her personality.  It's interesting that she becomes the loser in history in spite of her daughter's eventual and pivotal reign.  Anne of a Thousand Days at least depicts her as intelligent, and shows her turning the tables on Woolsey in conversation about his power and influence.  In The Private Life of Henry VIII (1933), which is for the most part a comedy, she was played briefly by Merle Oberon.

 

The current portrayal and her relationship to the king remind me of Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson.  He was obsessed with her, eventually giving up the throne for her, but no one seems to see her appeal quite as much as he did.

 

Incidentally, having last seen Claire Foy in Little Dorritt, let me complement her on her ability to turn from unendingly sweet to this whiny conniver.

[doodlebug]

 

also take issues with the portrayal of Mary Tudor as suffering from some kind of mental disease.  That tremulous voice, the head twitching and shaking

I was also a little put off by her twitchiness, but Mary did have a lot of physical ailments from a young age and there are reports that she was pretty dramatic at those times.  She did mention that she was having 'female problems' . Mary often took to her bed for days each month with her cycles.  She had headaches which were debilitating too.  I think we were supposed to see her as a bit of a hypochondriac, which she was, but the portrayal seemed off, making her problems seem neurologic and not physical/emotional.

 

As previously noted, I think the point was to contrast sensitive, emotional Mary with her tough, no nonsense mother.  Mary was devastated when her father rejected her and her mother.  Her only purpose in life as daughter of a monarch was to be married off to a foreign royal to cement ties to England.  When her father decided to annull the marriage and declare her a bastard, she was cut off from the only life that she knew and for which she had been prepared since childhood.  I'd have been a little twitchy at that point, too.

 

By the time her parents were through using and abusing her for their own agendas, she was definitely not terribly mentally stable, but that was years in the future from this time.

Edited April 22, 2015 by doodlebug

[Dirtybubble]

I get that she may not have been lovable or kind. But there should be something about her-- after all, Henry wasn't the first man to fall in love with her. She had to have something more than mere beauty. What was it?

 

The documentary that PBS aired of Henry's court indicated that Anne was different than the other English ladies of the court.  She had been educated in France, perhaps world traveler and just simply had IT.  She was young & attractive and Henry, since his current wife was older and past her child birthing years, felt Anne could produce a son easily.  And I guess her independent spirit and mind attracted him when all he was accustomed to where women simply giving in to his every desire.  *shrug* I guess anyway.

 

 

I am not seeing Anne as a bitch, though. Imperious + headstrong, but have you seen her family?

Phew yeah her family is no cake walk either.  Her uncle, the Duke of Norfolk, just grates me to no end!  I guess it's her cruel demeanor bothers me.  When the "profit" approached them on their wedding day (?? was that their wedding day or just a coming out/presentation kinda thing?) and stated that if he marries Anne all these terrible things would happen.  At least the king dealt with it with humor and was willing to let it go, she screamed for her to be whipped.  Good grief girl this is how you want the public to see you?  Show some dignity!  And the temper tantrum with the bow & arrow, gah what a brat. 

[sugarbaker design]

And isn't it possible that even Henry's court couldn't see what Henry saw in Anne?  That only Henry could see what Henry saw in Anne?  Like Jennifer Lopez and Marc Anthony.

Edited April 22, 2015 by sugarbaker design