S05.E02: The House of Black and White

[DigitalCount]

I'm going to assume (for no particular reason) that her list has grown to the point that she had to split people up. On Sunday, it's Cersei, the Mountain, Walder, and Meryn. Monday, it's Ilyn Payne, Tywin, Beric, Mel, and so on.

[Constantinople]

And that she so easily ditched the Red Woman and the Brotherhood gang... 

 

 

Yeah, has she forgotten about Gendry already?

 

Remind me never to become Arya's friend.

 

 

Perhaps Gendry waved to her from his row boat as she crossed the Narrow Sea.

[Hanahope]

Brienne has come across both Arya and Sansa and been rejected by both (and its not entirely clear - just as its not in the book - what she ever intended to do once she found them especially once Lysa was dead). ‘’

 

 

I can't blame Sansa for not going with the knight with no plan. It's not like Sansa's a proper lady who can come and go as she pleases. Having someone like Brienne is more trouble then it's worth at this point.

 

 

I think part of Brienne's problem is that she isn't offering anything to either one.  Arya knew Lysa was dead, so what did Brienne have to offer?  Maybe get her north to Jon?  But Arya had her own plan to do that and probably wasn't sure she could trust someone she just met.  It took her a long time to trust the Hound.

 

Same with Sansa, Brienne isn't offering any plan to Sansa, just to be her sword.  Sansa already feels "safe enough" with LF, and probably realizes that LF isn't going to let anyone get between them (such as Lysa).  It would have been nice though if there was some mention of what sword Brienne is carrying, just to drive that point home about trust.  

 

 

Actually liked the twist of Jaquen H'dar (or the actor who plays him at least since "there is no Jaquen H'dar) being the one who greets Arya in Bravvos. I actually like the actor's chemistry with MW and might make that storyline of what Arya goes through interesting if we know the person putting her through it.

 

I'm sure that the main reason for the actor reprising the role is because he's familiar and we don't have to have yet another new character.  It does make me wonder if the Old Town story line is going to happen or not.  We've heard nothing about it.  Here's a thought, maybe they will "fast forward" Arya's training and she's the one that goes to Old Town.  Otherwise, her plot line is pretty thin.  I did like how her list has been reduced.

 

Oberyn volunteered to fight Clegane to get his revenge for Elia...he got it (by poisoning the man) and then blew the fight by acting like a douchebag.

 

I'm presuming Elaria's vengeance is based on the whole reason Oberyn was in that position to begin with, he would never have volunteered for the fight had Elia not been killed by the Mountain, ordered by Tywin.  So in Elaria's mind, Oberyn was unjustly killed by the Lannisters.  I get the consolidation of actors here too, though agree that if they have cut the Dorne plot with the Targaryns/Varys, a good story is lost.

Edited April 21, 2015 by SilverStormm
Spoilery spec based on leaked episode info removed.

[Andromeda]

Really? I will have to double check later because I didnt think they parted buddies. But how knows! I didn't like the changes to that scene at all.

They did. I marathoned last season in preparation for this one. Jamie unlocks Tyrion's cell, gives him a long hug, and sends him on his way. None of the Tyrion's whore stuff or Tyrion blaming Jamie for that made the cut. Now, even though Tyrion killed his father, Jamie is conflicted about hating him for it (unlike Circie), because he loves Tyrion, too, and partly blames himself for freeing Tyrion to commit murder.

[nksarmi]

At one point I didn't like that they cut the Tysha confession by Jamie because I thought it justified Tyrion's rage against his father, but in the end, they didn't need it for me.  I still don't feel one ounce of bad that Tyrion murdered his father or what's her name.  She was never portrayed as dim witted so she would have known he only wanted her safety.  She broke his heart and provided testimony that could cost him his life and then she went on to sleep with the man who was responsible for sentencing him to death?  Plus, I'm pretty sure that in show - she attacked him first.  I can't remember how it happened in the books, but I can't bring myself to feel bad about her death.  It all just feels like self-defense for poor Tyrion.  So I am ok they cut it and had Jamie and Tyrion part on good terms.  I suspect that will matter if Tyrion comes back to Westerous with Dany and company.

[Avaleigh]

I don't really understand why the show relationship with Cersei and Jaime is in the place it's in considering the season finale. I wish that Jaime had reminded her that he was gone when Myrcella was shipped off to Dorne in the first place and that this isn't a mess of his own making. It goes back again to Tyrion.

They did. I marathoned last season in preparation for this one. Jamie unlocks Tyrion's cell, gives him a long hug, and sends him on his way. None of the Tyrion's whore stuff or Tyrion blaming Jamie for that made the cut. Now, even though Tyrion killed his father, Jamie is conflicted about hating him for it (unlike Circie), because he loves Tyrion, too, and partly blames himself for freeing Tyrion to commit murder.

I actually don't feel like Jaime feels all that conflicted about his feelings for Tyrion. I think his reaction to Tyrion now is more like 'You ungrateful, traitorous, villain...'

 

In the books Jaime isn't happy to hear Tyrion admit to killing his son but that isn't the shit that he's turning over and over in his mind. Tyrion in the books hates Jaime enough to kill him and while I think that book!Jaime is capable of killing Tyrion I don't think he will and I think he has a lot less anger at Tyrion than Tyrion has for him. On the show I feel like Jaime has a lot more reason to be angry with Tyrion than the other way around. That was a huge betrayal and Tyrion left Jaime with a bag of shit to hold. 

 

Not only have Tyrion's actions made it so that Jaime will feel like he was indirectly a participant to patricide but now it's again damaged his relationship with Cersei. Even if they didn't have a sexual relationship, they're close twins and one twin just aided their only other sibling and the sibling ended up killing their father. This is the same sibling that Cersei insisted killed their son. I can see why Jaime would be done with Tyrion.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Andromeda]

It seem's she's a believer in "you broke it, you bought it". The books make it clear that the other cities she liberated quickly feel into chaos when she left (I'm straining to think of a real world parallel here), she's trying to ensure this one stays stable.

I had a good laugh at your "real world" strain, there, even read it to Mr. Andromeda!

[Holmbo]

I'm bringing my thoughts quiet late to the party.

 

Most general things has already been said so I'm gonna say one thing I noticed about this episode was that it had an unusual amount of book material. Exposition in terms of explaining grayscale and Dany getting backstory but also small nods like night watch history, Lyanna Mormonts letter, Cersei's dwarf genocide and Lollys fangirling over getting to meet Jaime Lannister.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Holmbo

[Hecate7]

At one point I didn't like that they cut the Tysha confession by Jamie because I thought it justified Tyrion's rage against his father, but in the end, they didn't need it for me.  I still don't feel one ounce of bad that Tyrion murdered his father or what's her name.  She was never portrayed as dim witted so she would have known he only wanted her safety.  She broke his heart and provided testimony that could cost him his life and then she went on to sleep with the man who was responsible for sentencing him to death?  Plus, I'm pretty sure that in show - she attacked him first.  I can't remember how it happened in the books, but I can't bring myself to feel bad about her death.  It all just feels like self-defense for poor Tyrion.  So I am ok they cut it and had Jamie and Tyrion part on good terms.  I suspect that will matter if Tyrion comes back to Westerous with Dany and company.

 

Agreed. As soon as she saw Tyrion, she reached for her knife. There was no, "wait, I can explain," or "they made me do it," or "shhhhhh, I'll help you escape, I still love you." Just straight for the knife--as if she were sure that Tyrion would have no reason at all NOT to try to kill her. And she did lunge first. I feel a little bad about it, but on the show they made it very justified. In the books, it sickened me, and I felt it was unredeemable the way he killed her, even though I suspected in the books, as I did on the show, that Shae was "too good to be true" and that she was spying for Tywin (or someone) all along.

 

As for Jaime, he looked conflicted to me. He's always loved Tyrion, and I think he looked troubled to think that Tyrion would do that to him. I think he has way more reason to be mad at Tyrion, than the other way around, but I also think that he will want to know why--if he can excuse Tyrion, he will. I think he figures Tyrion must have had a reason, and I also think he has not ruled out the possibility that someone else wielded the crossbow. Tyrion wasn't the only person running around with a reason to kill Tywin. I think Jaime is hurt but reserving judgement.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Hecate7

[Shanna]

I don't think Jaime or Tyrion would really kill each other in the books, no matter what they were thinking in their heads. I really though that confrontation was important though. The show feels only half explained now to me. But oh well. (Hecate I thought Shae was spying for Tywin maybe too)

I defiantly think dany has good reasons for staying in meereen but if anything it just shows that you can't pop into a city and fix everything, no matter how many dragons you have. So this is a harsh and painful but necessary thing. I would feel better about it if I knew the end game (even though this is book talk I won't get too much into where it leads until we catch up).

Edited April 21, 2015 by Shanna

[RedheadZombie]

I really wish someone would point out to Cersei that she is the one who's endangered Myrcella.  I do believe she absolutely loves her daughter, but in that moment, she hated her brother more.  She was blinded by the need to have Tyrion die, and in that moment, Myrcella didn't matter.

[nksarmi]

Agreed. As soon as she saw Tyrion, she reached for her knife. There was no, "wait, I can explain," or "they made me do it," or "shhhhhh, I'll help you escape, I still love you." Just straight for the knife--as if she were sure that Tyrion would have no reason at all NOT to try to kill her. And she did lunge first. I feel a little bad about it, but on the show they made it very justified. In the books, it sickened me, and I felt it was unredeemable the way he killed her, even though I suspected in the books, as I did on the show, that Shae was "too good to be true" and that she was spying for Tywin (or someone) all along.

 

As for Jaime, he looked conflicted to me. He's always loved Tyrion, and I think he looked troubled to think that Tyrion would do that to him. I think he has way more reason to be mad at Tyrion, than the other way around, but I also think that he will want to know why--if he can excuse Tyrion, he will. I think he figures Tyrion must have had a reason, and I also think he has not ruled out the possibility that someone else wielded the crossbow. Tyrion wasn't the only person running around with a reason to kill Tywin. I think Jaime is hurt but reserving judgement.

It's been awhile since I have read anything, but Jamie of the show seems more upset by his father's death than Jamie of the books.  Jamie of the books seems to realize - even outside the Tysha confession - that Tyrion has all the reason in the world to kill his father.  I'm also having trouble reconciling Jamie to the books in regards to Cersei because my current impression is that Jamie has realized his sister is scum and can't stand her.  Of course, I also maintain my impression that Jamie will be her death, but I think those who think it could be Tommen have an interesting theory going.

 

At any rate, in my opinion, the show really needs to find a way to set Jamie on the path that alienates him from Cersei.  I don't want to see him trying to get to her when she goes on trial - I want to see him willfully ignore her.  I am hoping that while he is in Dorne he will have to face the fact that his father ordered the death of two children and an innocent woman and that he was in fact, a heartless bastard and in some parts of Westerous, Tyrion is a hero for killing him.

[cambridgeguy]

On the show I feel like Jaime has a lot more reason to be angry with Tyrion than the other way around. That was a huge betrayal and Tyrion left Jaime with a bag of shit to hold.

True, but Jaime was there to see Tyrion lose it when Shae sold him out at the trial - that's nothing compared to finding out that she was sleeping with his father.  He might have some sympathy for Tyrion even while still being incredibly angry at the turn of events.  This is, of course, assuming that he knows about Shae being there.

 

 

I am hoping that while he is in Dorne he will have to face the fact that his father ordered the death of two children and an innocent woman and that he was in fact, a heartless bastard and in some parts of Westerous, Tyrion is a hero for killing him.

Would Tyrion be a hero, though?  Jaime killed a crazy, murderous king and it seems like virtually everyone considers him scum of the earth.  Tyrion killed his dad, one of the greatest sins possible, and while Tywin was a jerk he wasn't nearly as bad as Aerys.

[magdalene]

I do think Jaime is conflicted about Tyrion. Jaime is often conflicted about things and people - it's like his superpower.

[Maximum Taco]

Would Tyrion be a hero, though?  Jaime killed a crazy, murderous king and it seems like virtually everyone considers him scum of the earth.  Tyrion killed his dad, one of the greatest sins possible, and while Tywin was a jerk he wasn't nearly as bad as Aerys.

 

Likely not.

 

It's a recurring theme in the books that "No man is as accursed as the kinslayer." And Tyrion killed (or at the very least admits to killing) both his nephew and his father. He'd be seen as damned in the eyes of gods and men.

 

Jaime would be looked at with a lighter touch, even though he broke a sacred vow he never turned against family.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Avaleigh]

I really wish someone would point out to Cersei that she is the one who's endangered Myrcella.  I do believe she absolutely loves her daughter, but in that moment, she hated her brother more.  She was blinded by the need to have Tyrion die, and in that moment, Myrcella didn't matter.

Tyrion is the one who wanted a trial by combat and Oberyn is the one who decided that he wanted to participate in it even when he saw what he was up against. He could have won too if he hadn't been so arrogant. I don't see how Cersei is the one who put Myrcella in danger here. If it had been up to Cersei and she had been in control, we saw that she wouldn't have had Myrcella sent to Dorne in the first place. 

 

If anything I feel like Oberyn's hatred for the Mountain and the Lannisters blinded him and that Ellaria is too stubborn to accept this even though she was there and saw what happened for herself and knows the manner of how it all went down. 

[nodorothyparker]

It always felt more obvious in the books that Tyrion's grand romance with Shae existed largely in his head.  She seemed to like him well enough because he treated her well and paid the bills but I never got any sense that she saw it as a great love affair.  She's very clear that she's a whore without all the simmering resentment about it of show Shae.  Of course, show Shae is developed much more sympathetically, I suppose to make her inevitable betrayal so much more heart-rending for show Tyrion who's much more white hat than he is in the books.

 

It's been a good while since I muddled through Dances with Dragons, so it's entirely possible that I'm not remembering correctly but my sense of it was that once Tyrion got over his initial rage over the Tysha thing he wasn't nearly as resolute about wanting to kill Jaime.  That he was still angry, yes, but he also hadn't forgotten that Jaime had been the only member of his family to ever show any love or kindness toward him.  Throw in that whatever else he may have thought about it, book Jaime was at least able to get that Tyrion had had his reasons for killing Tywin, and I just don't see the brothers ever being able to kill each other if and when they meet up again.  Whether either of them will put themselves out there to protect the other should the need arise (say, a successful Dany invasion), it's harder to say.

 

But book Cersei never picks up on the fact that Jaime was the one who set him free, and neither does anyone else. Reconfiguring the story to make that the source of their estrangement has left Jaime in kind of a bad spot.  I can see him feeling a lot less understanding or forgiving of Tyrion in this version.

Edited April 22, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[tennisgurl]

 

That he was still angry, yes, but he also hadn't forgotten that Jaime had been the only member of his family to ever show any love or kindness toward him.

I`m pretty sure by the end of the book, Tyrion had kind of gotten over some of his anger at Jaime, or at least feels more kindly towards him. I remember him missing him towards the end of the book. 

 

The show seemed to be more interested in the Shae/Tyrion romance than the books did. In the books, Tyrion seemed to basically project all his hopes for love onto Shae, who really didn't seem to be into him, beyond as a customer, and didn't register too much as a character. Even Tyrion, if I remember right, still slept with other women when he had moved Shae into the castle. TV Shae was more of an independent character, who had real feelings for Tyrion, even if they did turn really sour. Book Shae turned on him for the money, and I felt like that was basically it. TV Shae was more woman scorned. I`m still not sure how I feel about how the ended up using Shae in the trial arc, but she was certainly a different character, even if they tried to get her to serve the same function as in the book.

 

And if I remember right, he didn't really think much about her in DwD. He just thought about Tysha.  

[RedheadZombie]

Tyrion is the one who wanted a trial by combat and Oberyn is the one who decided that he wanted to participate in it even when he saw what he was up against. He could have won too if he hadn't been so arrogant. I don't see how Cersei is the one who put Myrcella in danger here. If it had been up to Cersei and she had been in control, we saw that she wouldn't have had Myrcella sent to Dorne in the first place.

If anything I feel like Oberyn's hatred for the Mountain and the Lannisters blinded him and that Ellaria is too stubborn to accept this even though she was there and saw what happened for herself and knows the manner of how it all went down.

My view is this: once Oberyn volunteered to be Tyrion's champion, Cersei could have pulled the Mountain. Through the entire combat, all I saw was Cersei's glee that her brother would die. Never for a moment did I see any consideration of Myrcella's fate if Oberyn died - in that moment Tyrion's death was everything to her.

[Holmbo]

I feel like the show runners missed such an opportunity with Shae. They could have done anything they wanted with that character as long as they had in mind her basic role in the plot. I think it would have been more interesting if they had kept their relationship as prostitute and customer. No need to make it conventional.

[Avaleigh]

My view is this: once Oberyn volunteered to be Tyrion's champion, Cersei could have pulled the Mountain. Through the entire combat, all I saw was Cersei's glee that her brother would die. Never for a moment did I see any consideration of Myrcella's fate if Oberyn died - in that moment Tyrion's death was everything to her.

I guess I see it in a different way. Cersei is convinced that Tyrion killed Joffrey because Tyrion was Joffrey's cupbearer that day and Joffrey dropped dead of poison right after humiliating and insulting the hell out of Tyrion. So now Cersei is expected to pull the man that she feels has the strongest chance to be able to avenge her son's death so that the man she thinks murdered her son can go free and because she should be expected to anticipate that the Martells would blame the Lannisters for Oberyn's own choices and foolishness? 

 

To me this only makes sense if Oberyn had been forced to be Tyrion's champion. That and maybe if the Mountain had cheated or something but it's ridiculous to me that Ellaria can't see that she's wrong for wanting to torture and kill an innocent teenage girl because the father of her children didn't think that it was worth it to try to avenge Elia's death at another time or in another way.

 

I understand that Cersei did everything in her power to make sure that Tyrion would be convicted but I don't think that she thinks that the efforts she made were in order to convict an innocent man. I feel like she's convinced herself into thinking that Tyrion killed Joffrey because of their history and probably even because of the prophecy. (Am I the only one who is annoyed that there wasn't any golden shroud in sight for Joffrey when he was laid out? To me it would have been great if they'd had a moment of Cersei freaking out and ripping off whatever golden shroud the septas had put over Joffrey's face/body and saying something about how she'd asked them not to.) I think it's similar to Catelyn being convinced of Tyrion's guilt over the matter with Bran even though there was enough reason to at least give Catelyn pause before kidnapping him.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Elkins]

Here's a thought, maybe they will "fast forward" Arya's training and she's the one that goes to Old Town.  Otherwise, her plot line is pretty thin.

Gotta say, I would stand up and cheer so loud if Season 6 were to open with a chyron reading "5 Years Later..."

Edited April 22, 2015 by Elkins

[RedheadZombie]

I think it's similar to Catelyn being convinced of Tyrion's guilt over the matter with Bran even though there was enough reason to at least give Catelyn pause before kidnapping him.

 

I agree that it is similar to what Cat did, except her daughters were under their father's protection at the time.  I think Cat was impulsive, but Ned was still alive, and King's Landing wasn't yet the enemy of the Starks.  I think Cat did the reverse of Cersei when she released Jamie to get her girls back.  Unlike Cersei, she put her daughters' welfare ahead of her need for vengeance.

 

It was just too convenient that the person she hated most in the world was the suspect.  Would she be screaming "Take him" if it appeared Tywin did the poisoning?  My point is her hatred outweighed her love for her daughter - in that moment.  And now she's guilted Jamie into risking his life to get Myrcella back.  And she sent him off with scorn and mockery. 

[Fen]

I feel like the show runners missed such an opportunity with Shae. They could have done anything they wanted with that character as long as they had in mind her basic role in the plot. I think it would have been more interesting if they had kept their relationship as prostitute and customer. No need to make it conventional.

 

I agree.  I think Book Shae's fate was much sadder.  She was clear with Tyrion that she was a professional and he was a customer.  When she testified, it made sense - Cersei had offered a better deal.  Tyrion's rage at her 'betrayal' came from his own delusion.  TV Shae's plot was a little tedious because it was a bit trope-y, and her behaviour at times was baffling.

 

I'm bringing my thoughts quiet late to the party.

 

Most general things has already been said so I'm gonna say one thing I noticed about this episode was that it had an unusual amount of book material. Exposition in terms of explaining grayscale and Dany getting backstory but also small nods like night watch history, Lyanna Mormonts letter, Cersei's dwarf genocide and Lollys fangirling over getting to meet Jaime Lannister.

 

I think this is a really good point.  Given how pressed they are for time, I think providing detail and backstory is a good pointer for stuff that is likely to be important later: grayscale, for example.

[nodorothyparker]

The whole Cersei-Myrcella-Oberyn story is a perfect example of how shortsighted Cersei is in that she thinks she's above any possible consequences for the things she does.  Before Joffrey's wedding, she's expressing concern to Oberyn about Myrcella and how "everywhere they hurt little girls."  But she completely ignores that Oberyn has made no secret of his wanting justice for his family since the moment he showed up in Kings Landing, suggesting that maybe just maybe the Dornish hold a grudge.  After Joffrey's death, she's so completely hyperfocused on how it had to be Tyrion and Tyrion must die that she never once considers how the Dornish, who still have her daughter, might react if their prince is killed in the trial by combat.  That doesn't necessarily mean that she should have pulled the Mountain or that Ellaria isn't being unreasonable considering how it all played out, only that she never even thought about it because of course only her need to get rid of Tyrion matters.

 

This also ignores that a good part of the reason Myrcella is in Dorne in the first place is because Cersei wouldn't stop trying to undermine Tyrion from the moment he showed up to take over as hand of the king all the way back in season 2.  Tyrion started trying to separate her from her children to weaken her power because she wouldn't leave him alone to do the job he was there to do.  She never acknowledged any fault in that either.

Edited April 22, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[Mr. Simpatico]

I agree.  I think Book Shae's fate was much sadder.  She was clear with Tyrion that she was a professional and he was a customer.  When she testified, it made sense - Cersei had offered a better deal.  Tyrion's rage at her 'betrayal' came from his own delusion.  TV Shae's plot was a little tedious because it was a bit trope-y, and her behaviour at times was baffling.

Did the show ever bother to explain Shae's true motivations? Or Tywin for that matter? In the books, Shae was promised a knight husband and a landed estate and she reneged. Tywin was shown to be a hypocrite (remember how he treated his father's "whore" and Tysha). Book!Shae never pretended to be anything than what she was, while it seemed Show!Shae thought it was this great love story (and became the protectress of Sansa - which was entirely dropped as well when Sansa was accused and had to flee). It's like the show knew it had to have Shae's fate remain the same but couldn't be bothered to have it make sense. For instance, Shae never speaks to Tyrion in that final scene, she sees him and tries to KILL him with a knife and he could argue he was protecting himself. In the book, Shae is trying to get back in his good graces after being found and uses the same line "My Lion of Lannister" that she used to ridicule him in her testimony agains thim and that's what threw him over the edge. And THAT would have made a more interesting scene.

But the show resists attempts to make Tyrion as dark as he gets in the books, even though as often repeated by several characters he is his father's son.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Mr. Simpatico

[Maximum Taco]

Did the show ever bother to explain Shae's true motivations? Or Tywin for that matter? In the books, Shae was promised a knight husband and a landed estate and she reneged. Tywin was shown to be a hypocrite (remember how he treated his father's "whore" and Tysha). Book!Shae never pretended to be anything than what she was, while it seemed Show!Shae thought it was this great love story (and became the protectress of Sansa - which was entirely dropped as well when Sansa was accused and had to flee). It's like the show knew it had to have Shae's fate remain the same but couldn't be bothered to have it make sense. For instance, Shae never speaks to Tyrion in that final scene, she sees him and tries to KILL him with a knife and he could argue he was protecting himself. In the book, Shae is trying to get back in his good graces after being found and uses the same line "My Lion of Lannister" that she used to ridicule him in her testimony agains him and that's what through him over the edge. And THAT would have made a more interesting scene.

But the show resists attempts to make Tyrion as dark as he gets in the books, even though as often repeated by several characters he is his father's son.

 

It's pretty much what you said.

 

The show is trying it's hardest to paint Tyrion with the whitest paint possible. He never has to do anything that's morally questionable, and he comes out of every situation with the audience's sympathy. In the books he's a gray nuanced character; in the show, he's the white washed hero, even moreso than Dany or Jon Snow I'd argue, because he also gets shit on more than them and therefore is always in the audience's sympathy.

 

The show also wanted us to care about Tyrion and Shae's relationship, so her betrayal would be all the more shocking. The only true way to do that is to make her a sympathetic character, so we don't expect her heelturn. She needs to be someone who is in love with Tyrion, and wants good things for him, and cares about Sansa, and at the last second they just assassinate her character by making her turn her back on everything and hop into bed with Tywin. It doesn't make any sense, but it does make a lot of the audience say "You bitch. Poor Tyrion." which seems to be what the showrunners are going for. It's a typical heel turn,  it doesn't need to make sense for most people, because it's compelling enough that this lady we trusted is turning on our poor hero.

 

Even the actress who played Shae tried to ask for her character to avoid selling out Sansa, she could reason that maybe she'd be pissed enough at Tyrion to sell him down the river, but she could never rationalize Shae betraying Sansa. And the showrunners insisted she turn on Sansa as well, because they want us to hate her, and love Tyrion. Then when he kills her, all our sympathies are with Tyrion. He isn't the callous murderer who strangled a woman to death, a woman who was probably coerced into her testimony by powerful people. No no, he's the hero who killed that bitch who betrayed him and Sansa and hopped into bed with Tywin, and to top it all off, he was just defending himself cause she attacked first.

 

How can we possible hold that against our hero?

Edited April 22, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Holmbo]

Could we please not start another is-Tyrion-ruined-by-the-show discussion. I don't know about everybody else but I feel like I've heard every possible viewpoint and argument about this.

Maybe it's my fault for mentioning show adaption of Shae. I apologize.

[Dev F]

I suspect that the changes to Shae's characterization have less to do with whitewashing Tyrion and more to do with the fact that the book version of the character would be extremely hard to pull off in a TV series. In the book, it's easier to conceal the fact that Shae is a self-interested whore who doesn't really care about Tyrion, because we're seeing the character solely from Tyrion's point of view and he's in denial about that fact. In the TV series, where our view of the character is inherently more objective, it'd quickly become incredibly obvious that Shae was a golddigger, and the audience would soon become frustrated that a smart guy like Tyrion didn't notice.

[Meredith Quill]

This discussion has really gone off topic from the episode now; if you want to continue this discussion please take it to an appropriate thread.

 

Thank you.

[paigow]

Gotta say, I would stand up and cheer so loud if Season 6 were to open with a chyron reading "5 Years Later..."

... accompanied by a 10 minute "Star Wars style" scrolling exposition / recap

[nksarmi]

I agree that it is similar to what Cat did, except her daughters were under their father's protection at the time.  I think Cat was impulsive, but Ned was still alive, and King's Landing wasn't yet the enemy of the Starks.  I think Cat did the reverse of Cersei when she released Jamie to get her girls back.  Unlike Cersei, she put her daughters' welfare ahead of her need for vengeance.

 

It was just too convenient that the person she hated most in the world was the suspect.  Would she be screaming "Take him" if it appeared Tywin did the poisoning?  My point is her hatred outweighed her love for her daughter - in that moment.  And now she's guilted Jamie into risking his life to get Myrcella back.  And she sent him off with scorn and mockery. 

Actually what Cersei did IS very similar to what Cat did in the beginning and it is largely why I have never been able to like Catherine Stark.  In my eyes, Cat was completely impulsive when she seized Tyrion without thought to the fact that Ned, Sansa, and Ayra were all in the capitol within the reach of Jamie Lannister!  While Cat might not have understood just how dangerous King's Landing was or how weak a ruler Robert Baratheon really was - I still believe her actions ARE directly responsible for the death of her husband and all the bad things that befell her children.  What is worse is that she compounds her error by betraying her son and weakening his position among his warriors.  Robb Stark made his own fatal error by breaking his oath of marriage, but Catherine weakened him by freeing Jamie.

 

So outside of the fact that Cersei is clearly nuts, I think comparing her to Catherine actually works well.  Of course, what is even worse is that Marcella is alone in Dorne.  She doesn't have her father or sworn men or anyone to protect her against someone wanting revenge.  Tyrion was wise to broker the deal and keep Dorne out of the War of Five Kings, but Cersei completely lacks wisdom or foresight. And I no more believe she believes Tyrion killed Geoffrey than she believes she is in love with Jamie.  The woman lies to herself, but deep down she knows the truth.  She wouldn't have had to fabricate so many lies to take Tyrion down if he was guilty.

[Shanna]

Cersei is not as smart as she thinks she is. That but of characterization is consistent at least. And I honestly think, monster that he was, Joffrey was still her favorite. She is much more focused on her hatred of Tyrion and vengeance for Joffrey than she is protecting myrcella. (I also though her being mad at Tyrion sending myrcella away was stupid because it protected her during the battle of black water where things could have gone very badly. But she was incapable of seeing good in Tyrion, who I don't think wished any harm to tommen or myrcella).

So even if she had thought through to potential repercussions to myrcella she probably would still have gone after Tyrion and just tried to deal with the rest later).

Edited April 22, 2015 by Shanna

[Bannon]

Are you really engaged in murder, if the person you kill was trying his level best to have you killed, for no other reason than he A) thinks it serves his political purposes (do you really think show Tywin thought show Tyrion poisoned Joffrey?), and B) because you're physique is outside the norm? Especially when the person who is trying to have you killed has ultimate political authority, from which there is no appeal? Show Tyrion's shooting of a bolt through show Tywin on the crapper looks more like justifiable homicide than murder to me. Hell, even strangling hs ex could reasonably be described as self-defense.

 

I wish The Hound was still around to tell the remnants of the Lannister clan what a pile of worthless sh*t they all are. 

Edited April 22, 2015 by Bannon

[Maximum Taco]

Are you really engaged in murder, if the person you kill was trying his level best to have you killed, for no other reason than he A) thinks it serves his political purposes (do you really think show Tywin thought show Tyrion poisoned Joffrey?), and B) because you're physique is outside the norm? Especially when the person who is trying to have you killed has ultimate political authority, from which there is no appeal? Show Tyrion's shooting of a bolt through show Tywin on the crapper looks more like justifiable homicide than murder to me. Hell, even strangling hs ex could reasonably be described as self-defense.

 

I wish The Hound was still around to tell the remnants of the Lannister clan what a pile of worthless sh*t they all are. 

 

There was an appeal it was trial by combat.

 

Tyrion himself selected that appeal and he lost.

 

You aren't allowed to kill the judge because you lost the trial. There is nothing justifiable about the murder (and it was murder) of Tywin Lannister.

[Bannon]

If the judge knowingly suborns false testimony, the judge has no legitimacy, and if the judge tries to apply the death penalty in such a trial, the judge becomes a legitimate target for homicide, because the judge is involved in a conspiracy to commit murder. The target of a murderous conspiracy has the legitimate right to self defense.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Bannon

[Shanna]

He went looking for Tywin and I don't think that will get you self defense in the us at least. But probably this is off topic for this thread because the thing Tyrion is concerned about is that he is a kinslayer. I'm glad the show is clearly going to try to move this plot line along but I was really looking forward to the Jorah/Tyrion combo so I'm curious when we will get to that. If they aren't going straight to meereen I'm curious what varys is doing.

[Mya Stone]

Guys, we're off the rails. We have numerous options. This isn't a catchall thread, it's the episode thread. Take the discussions to their proper threads.

If you want to talk about a character's actions that weren't shown this episode, please take it to that character's thread. If you want to talk about book vs show changes, there's a thread for you for that, too. Previous seasons? Got those too.

 

Thanks! 

 

[Bannon]

moved to The Imp thread

Edited April 23, 2015 by Bannon

[fantique]

moved to relevant section

Edited April 23, 2015 by fantique

[Holmbo]

I have something relevant to the episode. I mentioned in the non book thread how seeing Cersei in charge made me wish we'd get some capable female ruler in this show. That made me think what if they made Doran a woman. They could have had him have exact same personality and role in the plot except since we don't have Arianne make him a woman to establish the dornish inheritance laws. I would have loved to see the Doran Ellaria scene this episode with two women.

I understand though that they would never do such a thing. Way to radical. They usually like to play it very safe in their adaption choices.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Holmbo

[Avaleigh]

Doranne Martell? I think I would have liked that. 

[Ottis]

Was Arya's story this dull?

 

 

Yes, and so is Tyrion's. And Dany's continues to meander. At this point in the books, several areas slow down and plod, as I remember. Only Cersei stays interesting.

 

The former Masters in Meereen hate Dany.  Now the former slaves are hissing at her and throwing rocks.  Why is she hanging around, exactly?  Pack up the dragons and Unsullied and sail the fuck away.  Maybe burn the place to the ground first.  I'm really not caring about her story line this season AT ALL.

 

 

Dany takes a long time to figure out how to be a leader. In the meantime, we get scenes like that, where she is trying to do either the "right" thing (based on her own views of "right") or the thing an advisor tells her she must do to appear strong.

[polyhymnia]

Choosing the site in Seville for the Water Gardens ended up being a lovely choice.  When I read the books I didn't picture the Water Gardens anything like that castle, but it was a lovely shot anyway.  I am hoping that Ellaria calms down a little from the vengeance train and starts plotting with Doran.  They would make a decent team.  I liked the silent exchange between the Prince and Areo Hotah "want me to slice off her head?"  "Nah.  Not yet, anyway."  That was well done between those actors.

 

Kit Harrington has really come into his own on this show.  And I love that the Wall scenes are some of the consistently best and most interesting, as everything else is really window dressing because, well, WinterisComing.  Eventually.

[Hecate7]

Really? I will have to double check later because I didnt think they parted buddies. But how knows! I didn't like the changes to that scene at all.

The show makes your memory play tricks on your mind.

 

I can "remember" Tyrion saying the line, with crystal clarity. I also remember Mirri Muz Dur saying

"when you bear a living child,"

and Catelyn Stark saying

"Jon? It should have been you,"

even though NEITHER of these things actually happened on the show. Be careful with that. The most memorable moments in the book stick in your brain, and the voices and faces of this wonderful cast do, too, and so your brain just goes ahead and tells you, "yes, that definitely happened."

[Matt K]

Dany really screwed things up here.  I'm not really sure what she hoped to accomplish with a trial as the guy had no reason to confess to killing people and they had nothing to tie him to any of the killings.  What she should of done was present his confession to the killings and then executed him thus showing that such behavior is not to be tolerated.

 

That said she should have given the former slave at least some token trial.  Even though she knew he did it at least give him the opportunity to publicly acknowledge what he did was wrong and get him to say he accepts his punishment.  But instead with just a summary execution she didn't really give the former slaves any reason to side with her.  She really bungled the whole situation and I'm kind of surprised no one thought to actually advise her here.  Hopefully things will change when Tyrion gets there.

[WearyTraveler]

Dany really screwed things up here.  I'm not really sure what she hoped to accomplish with a trial as the guy had no reason to confess to killing people and they had nothing to tie him to any of the killings.  What she should of done was present his confession to the killings and then executed him thus showing that such behavior is not to be tolerated.

 

That said she should have given the former slave at least some token trial.  Even though she knew he did it at least give him the opportunity to publicly acknowledge what he did was wrong and get him to say he accepts his punishment.  But instead with just a summary execution she didn't really give the former slaves any reason to side with her.  She really bungled the whole situation and I'm kind of surprised no one thought to actually advise her here.  Hopefully things will change when Tyrion gets there.

 

I think they might use the slaves dislike for her actions as the leverage to get her to open the fighting pits again.

[John Potts]

Cersei's starting to crack up (like her Book counterpart). Also, probably not a good idea not to scream at your brother about the true parentage of your incestuous child in public.

"Mean people get what's coming to them - one way or the other" Bron. Hmm, I'm sure you'll have nothing to do with that happening.

Go Barristan! Speaking truth to power!

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2015 at 3:03 AM, Pete Martell said:

I haven't read as far in the books - did Jon's election also come across like a pep rally in that?

There were more candidates, but the vote became deadlocked and increasingly polarised between those for & against two candidates (Alliser Thorne and Janos Slynt, IIRC, though it may have been Bowen Marsh), though neither had enough votes to actually win. Using some fairly basic spin doctoring, Sam convinces each of them to back Jon to prevent the other winning, giving Jon enough votes to become Lord Commander.

So it was more of a series of backroom deals, but I can see that is (seen as) less dramatically interesting than a pep rally. At least we got a nice speech from Maester Aemon. And I liked that Alliser Thorne didn't deny that Jon had fought bravely (as did Sam, acknowledging Thorne's role).

Badass Arya! Those muggers don't know how lucky an escape they had.

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2015 at 5:22 AM, Mr. Simpatico said:

I still feel sure Kevan will have a role to play at court (or they wouldn't have brought the actor back) but was he so belligerent with Cersei in the books?

Pretty sure that was essentially lifted from the Books. Cersei assumed that as he'd been Tywin's "Yes Man", he'd perform the same role for her, but he wasn't interested in being on the Small Council if he was just expected to nod and agree with what Cersei decided (and rightly so, given how she does as Acting Hand).

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2015 at 4:13 PM, Maximum Taco said:

You're speaking from the point of view of a person who has read/watched everything and knows the people. You need to think of the situation from the point of view of a scared girl just learning to not be scared.

Totally agree here. Sansa's choice is understandable - go with somebody who (by her own admission) had failed to protect her last two charges or somebody who actually did get her out of two potentially fatal situations. We may believe (rightly!) that Littlefinger does not have Sansa's best interests at heart whereas Brienne probably does, but that's because we've seen a lot more than she has (and, in most cases, are older than she is, so should have more wisdom).

[WearyTraveler]

11 hours ago, John Potts said:

There were more candidates, but the vote became deadlocked and increasingly polarised between those for & against two candidates (Alliser Thorne and Janos Slynt, IIRC, though it may have been Bowen Marsh), though neither had enough votes to actually win. Using some fairly basic spin doctoring, Sam convinces each of them to back Jon to prevent the other winning, giving Jon enough votes to become Lord Commander.

Not exactly. There were a lot of candidates, and Alliser was one, but he dropped and asked his supporters to back Slynt.  Then Thorne and Slynt convinced Bowen to do the same (Jon overhears them talking in the baths and walks away from them with a pretty funny sarcastic line).

Then there were only three candidates left: Slynt, Cotter Pyke (the Commander Eastwatch), and Denys Mallister (the Commander of the Shadow Tower). Sam realizes that even though the vote is split fairly evenly, Slynt is slowly getting more and more votes after each round, while Pyke and Mallister get less and less.  Guessing that if the trend continues, Slynt would eventually win, Sam tricks Pyke and Mallister into dropping out of the race in favor of Jon.  Right before the final vote takes place, Mormont's raven flies out of the kettle where the votes are cast and stands on Jon's shoulder, calling out "Snow".  Sam recognizes the raven as belonging to Mormont, but Thorne argues that Sam had been teaching all the ravens to say "Snow" and that the Lord Commander's raven had a richer vocabulary.

Then Mormont's raven asks for "corn" and then it says "kettle".  After that, there was a veritable rain of tokens for Jon as Lord Commander.  Later, when Jon and friends are celebrating together, someone says that Sam also put the bird in the kettle, but Sam vehemently denies it, saying that the bird's sudden appearance scared him.  From the way it's written, I tend to think that Sam was telling the truth then.  So, Mormont's raven decided the election all by itself, and it then proceeded to remain by Jon's side, as it had with Mormont.

The whole thing was quite theatrical, but I did enjoyed reading it.

Edited June 30, 2018 by WearyTraveler