S04.E18: Heart Of Gold

[Shanna Marie]

More plot holes:

 

Why would Zelena as Marian sincerely tell Regina that maybe she wasn't a monster, after all, when (as I recall) there was no one there to witness the scene?

Why would Zelena have to act just like Marian all the time, even when she wasn't around someone who actually knew Marian? She might have to feign sincerity in front of Robin or Little John, but Regina barely remembered her so she could have done just about anything when she was alone with Regina.

Zelena's issue was not being the first choice and Regina being the chosen one. Why would she set up a situation that made Regina the chosen one? Even if she did then make it so Robin had to leave, that left Regina's pride intact. Regina was left knowing that she was the one who was chosen, and it was her idea for Robin to leave with Marian. If Robin had been left to his own devices, he would have stayed with Regina and let Marian go. Brilliant revenge there.

Zelena was never shown to be jealous of romantic relationships. She wanted Regina's things -- the castle, clothes, jewels. Why would her revenge involve taking Regina's boyfriend and then living in poverty with him while Regina still lived in wealth and power? (Yet another time these writers seem to think that having a boyfriend is the most important thing ever.)

If for some strange reason she decided that the boyfriend was the best avenue for revenge, why didn't she fight for him and make his decision even more difficult rather than giving up?

[Law Mom]

I am now breaking my own rule and trying to rationalize things that can't be rationalized, but maybe Zelina gave up all these juicy Regina revenge opportunities because she needed to be in New York to confront Gold in his weakened state just exactly as she did so she could threaten him into going after the Author and getting the happy endings. All part of the big plan.

 

But then why would she tell Robin to just let him die just a few minutes earlier? That makes no sen..... never mind. Carry on.

[ABitOFluff]

I've refrained from commenting on this episode because I just can't bring myself to care enough about it. It was so boring, and it makes me feel bad for Sean Maguire because he seems like such a lovely man. But while I don't hate his Robin Hood, I JUST DON'T CARE. Same with Rebecca Mader. In real life, she seems sweet, but of all the many iterations of the Wicked Witch of the West, she's just nowhere near my top favorites. (That would be Margaret Hamilton as the original MGM Wizard of Oz Wicked Witch and Elphaba in Wicked, thank you) On the other hand, if you were to force me to choose which villain I'd prefer to see this half season--Maleficent, Cruella, Ursela or Zelena--by default I have to go with Zelena, just because she's completely batshit crazy and owns it.

 

That all said, I enjoyed Zelena sleazing on the intubated Rumple, because he deserves some suffering. Plus, she's totally the biggest CS shipper on the show. The few flashbacks of Snow Drifts/No Place Like Home made me happy...Aaaand that's it.

 

Oh yes, plotholes and recons ahoy! So many I can't count. I'm moving on. As Jebediah Atkinson would say, "Nnnnnext!"

Edited April 14, 2015 by ABitOFluff

[Curio]

As Jebediah Atkinson would say, "Nnnnnext!"

 

I would totally watch hours upon hours of Taran Killam just ruthlessly tearing apart each episode of this show. He'd probably run out of note cards at some point.

[ABitOFluff]

I would totally watch hours upon hours of Taran Killam just ruthlessly tearing apart each episode of this show. He'd probably run out of note cards at some point.

Haha, after I wrote that I thought, "How much better would this show be with a Jebediah podcast recap?"  (or reCRAP as I almost typed).

[KingOfHearts]

Did anyone else find it weird that Rumple just grabbed a piece of straw in the tavern and proceeded to do nothing with it? I thought he was going to turn it into gold to show Robin what the compensation would be.

Edited April 14, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[jhlipton]

I said

I wouldn't send [Robin] to The Cabin in the Woods

FurryFury said:

I would!

 

Why do you hate the Old Ones so much?

 

On the other hand, if you were to force me to choose which villain I'd prefer to see this half season--Maleficent, Cruella, Ursela or Zelena--by default I have to go with Zelena, just because she's completely batshit crazy and owns it.

Cruella and Zelena could be fun together. Totaly cray-cray and don't care who knows it.

[Worsel]

Did anyone else find it weird that Rumple just grabbed a piece of straw in the tavern and proceeded to do nothing with it? I thought he was going to turn it into gold to show Robin what the compensation would be.

I think it was already converted to gold - it looked shiny and gold colored to me.  So I assumed he converted the straw to gold and then waved it in front of Robin as inducement to accept the deal.

[FurryFury]

Cruella and Zelena could be fun together. Totaly cray-cray and don't care who knows it.

 

Eh, Cruella's pretty sane (although I haven't seen the last 2 episodes, so maybe this has changed). Zelena, however, is totally bonkers.

 

Why do you hate the Old Ones so much?

 

Well... If they couldn't handle Robin, I don't know who can.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think it was already converted to gold - it looked shiny and gold colored to me.  So I assumed he converted the straw to gold and then waved it in front of Robin as inducement to accept the deal.

It didn't look very gold to me, but you're probably right. The lighting was weird.

[Rumsy4]

I guess it was alternate reality time when it came to podcasters. ONCE initial reactions and Greetings from Storybrooke (and some of their listeners) had positive reactions to the episode and the Zelena twist. So, I guess there are audiences who liked it. A couple of them mentioned that they were glad that it removed the moral issues of OQ. :-p

Edited April 15, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Souris]

::headdesk::

[Mari]

I guess it was alternate reality time when it came to podcasters. ONCE initial reactions and Greetings from Storybrooke (and some of their listeners) had positive reactions to the episode and the Zelena twist. So, I guess there are audiences who liked it. A couple of them mentioned that they were glad that it removed the moral issues of OQ. :-p

But?  How does it remove the moral issues? 

 

I mean, yes, going forward Robin and Regina would have a fairly clear path--but:

• Regina still tortured and imprisoned Marian.
• In the original timeline, Regina killed her.
• Robin didn't care.  It was gross and creepy how very much Robin didn't care.
• Robin had no clue whatsoever that Zelena was Marian.
• Robin recommitted to Marian/Zelena.
• Then, Robin continued to see Regina.
• When Marian/Zelena was frozen, he had sex with Regina, where Marian/Zelena's heart was being kept.  (The magical equivalent of having sex with your girlfriend in your coma'd wife's hospital room.)

 

What makes them think it clears up any of the moral issues?  (And can we take this as more confirmation that the way they brought Zelena back actually was an effort to clean up the Robin/Regina blechfest?)

 

ETA:

And it's not like they can say "He could tell something was wrong!  They couldn't connect!"  Marian/Zelena was awake for--what?  All of 24 hours or so before Ingrid iced her?

Edited April 15, 2015 by Mari

[Rumsy4]

Yeah--don't ask me! lol I think they all had at least a liking for Outlaw Queen. I know the GF people love the Regina/Robin pairing, so that may color their reaction to the Zarian thing. And perhaps, conversely, disliking OQ predisposes that set of viewers to hate the twist. If nothing else, ONCE is extremely polarizing. A&E throw a bone here and there for different factions, and that's probably what keeps many people watching despite the general dissatisfaction of certain arcs.  

[MedievalGirl]

 It would be a neat twist imo, if I don't know, Zelena grew a heart sometime during the nine weeks and came to care about Roland and even love him.  She's been taking care of him and everything that it implies.

 

Something else she has in common with Regina. They should open an orphanage with Ingrid. 

[Dianthus]

Most of what I'd say about this ep (Poor Marian!, Boooring!) has already been said, so I'm gonna go with this: 

Dear Adam and Eddy,

Hood is not the guy I wanna see taking a shower.

Kthnxbai!

Dianthus

#Hookintheshower

[Mari]

Most of what I'd say about this ep (Poor Marian!, Boooring!) has already been said, so I'm gonna go with this: 

Dear Adam and Eddy,

Hood is not the guy I wanna see taking a shower.

Kthnxbai!

Dianthus

#Hookintheshower

Bwhahaha!

Well, you were polite, to the point, found something original to complain about.

Points to you.

And no one can say  you didn't know what you wanted and didn't want.

:)

[YaddaYadda]

Something else she has in common with Regina. They should open an orphanage with Ingrid. 

I actually thought of Owen when I was typing that up and everything that followed after that.

[Camera One]

What exactly was the point of the shower scene?  They needed to kill 30 seconds?

[kili]

A couple of them mentioned that they were glad that it removed the moral issues of OQ. :-p

 

I loved how they had Rumple, seconds away from flat-lining, confirming that Marian never made it back to Storybrooke. Like Rumple would give a rat's a$$ about that fact at the best of times. When dying, he would care even less. They just wanted it spelled out in block letters for the audience that "ROBIN WAS NOT CHEATING".

 

Robin may get away with it on a technacality, but as far as he knew he was cheating. He was cheating in his heart!

 

How interesting that Zelena could capture Marian's kick-butt fighting spirit while only getting to see Marian begging for mercy and accepting her fate in prison (the only times Emma was around Marian and Zelena was following Emma). Maybe the clover spell also clones the way people act because I couldn tell the difference between Original Recipe Marian and Zelena Marian until this episode.

 

Can I just say how upset I am that Marian was killed while knocked out? The character took no crap from anybody, so I would have much prefered her to have woken up and died defiantly. Not whisked away as dust while lying passed out on the ground. Maybe somebody can go to the EF, find her dust and spritz her with a mix of Robin's/Zelena's/Regina's/Adam's/Eddie's blood and she can come back to life like Malificient.

[tennisgurl]

My question? How much scenery will be left after Zelena has chewed it all up?!?!

[Lieutenant]

What exactly was the point of the shower scene?  They needed to kill 30 seconds?

To me it came off as: "Quick!  Throw in a shower scene to distract from gaping plot holes and seriously squicky moral issues!  That'll take their minds of poking around at our flimsy attempts at OQ arse-covering retcons."  *Nimerfro high-fives himself.  nailed it!*

[Souris]

My question? How much scenery will be left after Zelena has chewed it all up?!?!

 

Well, crap, there goes any hope of an apartment for Emma. They'll have to spend their budget rebuilding Granny's, Gold's shop and the loft.

[YaddaYadda]

What exactly was the point of the shower scene?  They needed to kill 30 seconds?

 

You mean that scene of Robin standing there under the shower brooding was 4 seconds longer than Emma shoving Hook's heart into his chest?  (I'm asking non-sarcastically).

 

No, I'm not bitter.  Who said I'm bitter?  Because I'm not.

 

The scene was just a ridiculous plot point to have "Marian" snoop around Robin's phone and guilt him into deleting Regina's number, because he couldn't have gone out for milk and forgotten his cell phone?  

[AudienceofOne]

A couple of them mentioned that they were glad that it removed the moral issues of OQ. :-p

 

 

Really doesn't. We need decent ethics classes, stat.

 

I mean, yes, going forward Robin and Regina would have a fairly clear path--but:

•Regina still tortured and imprisoned Marian.

•In the original timeline, Regina killed her.

•Robin didn't care.  It was gross and creepy how very much Robin didn't care.

•Robin had no clue whatsoever that Zelena was Marian.

•Robin recommitted to Marian/Zelena.

•Then, Robin continued to see Regina.

•When Marian/Zelena was frozen, he had sex with Regina, where Marian/Zelena's heart was being kept.  (The magical equivalent of having sex with your girlfriend in your coma'd wife's hospital room.)

What makes them think it clears up any of the moral issues?  (And can we take this as more confirmation that the way they brought Zelena back actually was an effort to clean up the Robin/Regina blechfest?)

 

 

Pretty much.

 

The thing that really really annoys me is that this is going to be used against Emma as "I told you that you shouldn't have saved Marian's life".

See what you've done now, Emma. SEE WHAT YOU'VE DONE.

Edited April 15, 2015 by AudienceofOne

[Worsel]

 

Can I just say how upset I am that Marian was killed while knocked out? The character took no crap from anybody, so I would have much prefered her to have woken up and died defiantly. Not whisked away as dust while lying passed out on the ground. 

Yes, Yes, Yes!  It would have been so much better if they had shown her putting up a fight - they could have taken the 30 seconds from the shower scene and given it to Marian (although I'm not complaining too much about seeing an attractive guy in the shower either...)

[kili]

How long was Zelena planning on pretending to be passed out before she did something about being stuck in the Vault of Things That Scare Rumple?  If Emma hadn't rediscovered her magic so quickly, they could have been there a while. Was Zelena sitting there regretting stealling Emma's powers in the first place?

 

Why did Zelena even want to go back to current day Storybrooke? If she just wanted to torment her sister, why not just do it in the past?  She seemed to have all her magical powers and EF Regina is even easier to wind-up than the SB version.

[AudienceofOne]

Yeah, remember how time travel was Zelena's plan. That the entire season was about her being able to time travel to destroy their lives in the past. So she succeeds at going to a time when she could have really put a nail in Regina's coffin by simply throwing her weight behind Snow against Regina and ruining her sister's ability to cast the curse.

 

And instead she comes back to the time she was trying to leave, pretends to be a really nice woman for a long time and then makes some pot roast.

[KingOfHearts]

Can I just say how upset I am that Marian was killed while knocked out? The character took no crap from anybody, so I would have much prefered her to have woken up and died defiantly. Not whisked away as dust while lying passed out on the ground.

That's what she gets for calling Regina out! She just couldn't understand the awesomeness that is the Evil Queen. You mess with Mary Sue, you get the horns! Bad things happen to people who stand up to her, you know? Snow got the kingdom to rebel against her, then she was cursed and now her daughter is going dark. Geppetto reprimanded her, then he lost his son again. Goodness knows what would happen to Emma if she hadn't apologized and groveled at her feet! Edited April 15, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Yeah, remember how time travel was Zelena's plan. That the entire season was about her being able to time travel to destroy their lives in the past. So she succeeds at going to a time when she could have really put a nail in Regina's coffin by simply throwing her weight behind Snow against Regina and ruining her sister's ability to cast the curse.

Or taking Regina out of the picture so Rumple would have to use her to cast the curse. Or using her knowledge of the future to get one up on both Regina and Rumple.

 

As usual, the characters' actions and reactions are based on what they need for the plot, not on what these characters as established would do or what any reasonable human would do.

[KAOS Agent]

There was a new method of killing in this episode. Apparently all one needs to do is wave their hands and bodies just turn to smoke or whatever. That seems pretty easy. Why are these magical people not using this method to kill their enemies?

 

 

I guess it was alternate reality time when it came to podcasters. ONCE initial reactions and Greetings from Storybrooke (and some of their listeners) had positive reactions to the episode and the Zelena twist. So, I guess there are audiences who liked it.

 

To address why some people liked this episode (I'm not one of them), I'd say it wasn't a bad episode if it hadn't just completely messed with all kinds of things and had been placed in a different episode order (i.e. so the big secret/Emma/Snowing storyline doesn't get the shaft). If you really couldn't care less about continuity or realistic character reactions or any of the stuff that's going on with Emma/Snowing, but you love Zelena and were excited about Robin Hood, then this should have been right up your alley. If this episode had been more like "Poor Unfortunate Soul" where the backstory and present were not super important to the ongoing arc, but still fun and informative about secondary characters, it would be better received by everyone else.

 

And this is not to rip the podcasters because they are having fun and enjoy what they're doing, but I can't listen to any of them because they are so often wrong about past canon events and then opine on things based on that false information. I'm glad they are enjoying things, but I can't take them at all seriously. Just as I can't handle some of the more popular bloggers who endlessly fawn about how great the show is and how beautifully meaningful each scene is and whatnot. Not every episode is the best damn thing in the world. It's okay to dislike something sometimes. 

Edited April 15, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Delphi]

So in addition to everything else people said about Zelena, I'm now really wondering what her huge plan was with the snow creature. What if Regina decided she didn't give a fuck?

[Chicken Wing]

I finally caught this episode On Demand last night and I am truly, utterly flabbergasted at the blatant and not even remotely clever retconning of the Zelena/Marian thing. Like others have said, I can accept that Zelena was intended to return to the show (in these kinds of shows, no one is ever really "gone" and the dead don't stay dead, so why not?) but I will not believe, will never believe, not in a million years, that they had intended for Zelena to return as having been impersonating Marian the whole time. Nope. Don't buy it. Makes no sense. Too many illogical coincidences and contrivances for her to have been able to do that, and absolutely nothing "Marian" had been doing the entire time this season makes sense if she was really Zelena all along. This reveal totally has last-minute (and badly thought out) retcon plastered all over it. The plotting on this show has been getting beyond lax for the last season or two, the storylines getting flimsier and more contrived, but I just go along with it because often the clumsy plotlines are still entertaining and somewhat clever, and it always more or less works itself out in the end. But this one? Not clever, not entertaining, and so completely insulting on so many levels.

 

And yet I will keep watching anyway. Perhaps only to see just how many more plot holes they make out of this.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Chicken Wing

[ImogenLeFay]

Sooo, I just remembered, Honorable And Good Robin Hood has the Dark One at his mercy and can bargain for whatever he wants in exchange for the heart potion thing... and all he can think of is "I want your son's apartment"?

[YaddaYadda]

Sooo, I just remembered, Honorable And Good Robin Hood has the Dark One at his mercy and can bargain for whatever he wants in exchange for the heart potion thing... and all he can think of is "I want your son's apartment"?

 

No one ever pretended that Robin was the brains of the operation.

 

So, speaking of Robin and the apartment and Rumple refusing to take Neal's things (some very meager possessions at that) and going on about those things are Neal Cassidy's, I find it sort of interesting that the show has drawn a line between Baelfire and Neal much as most viewers have.  It's also sad that Rumple was very eh about Neal's things.

 

It reminded me of Snow's speech in the Echo Cave about how grown up Emma is not what she had signed up for.

[Mitch]

Great episode, and shows you how nice it is to get a breather from Snow and Charming and Henry. Hardly any Hook and Emma "cuteness," (sorry, I like both of them but think they are just okay together and I hate "Ross/Rachel," cute romances...)  Loved that Zany Zelena is back and yes, it doesnt make sense that she traveled back to the time before the curse was cast and could have seriously messed with Regina , even stole the curse herself and cast it, but maybe she just had it out more for "todays," Regina and wanted to come back...no still doesnt make any sense at all..(hopefully they will throw us a bone and say that Zelena just really got used to electricity and central air and heat

 

Marion was too dull to be anything then a shell for Zelena to hide in, and well, I just hope her revenge has more going for it then just boinking Regina's boyfriend...very high school Zelena. Anyone who can make Rumpel her bitch is okay with me and I loved her imitation of his annoying Sparkle Dark mannerisims, and the actress is clearly enjoying this and playing her as a total whacko as opposed to trying to make us feel sorry for her. Favorite line of the night, after taunting Regina and threatening Robin..."Now I have to go, I have a MEATLOAF in the oven..." oh Cora's girls and their food (I love it when Once goes over the top and brings it all down to earth...hey a crazy gals gotta eat just like everyone else.) As Cora might say,"Well, I am very proud of at least ONE daughter..I guess I threw the wrong one away!"

 

I actually thought Robin was more interesting and the guy playing him did a good job this episode...(though his escape from Zelena was really easy..she couldnt just send a monkey his way?  I still don't know what the odd looking guy with the big ears is doing on this show...and I can hardly understand him half the time) I liked the nod to that Meg Ryan movie with the chase on the horse, I liked that Rump was reduced to fighting with them over the apartment, and I can help it if her plan is dumb I like Zelena causing trouble. The mirror thing was okay, it was Zelean seeing herslef in the mirror as opposed to every mirror revealing her face.  Big plus, Parrilla was very, very good with her last scene. She plays ambiguous Regina so much better then the EQ or whiney Regina. 

 

I also love that there is no magic in New York but magical things can cause trouble. Can we trade Storybrooke for New York..I would love to see the charaters living in the real world and trying to scavenge what odd magical things they can find. I liked that Rump explained the trees in SB are from our world so they don't have magic and we found out that if Regina's arms are bound she can't do magic...(simple enough thing for them to have done to her earlier.)

 

My big question is: Zelena has no magic so why is she such a threat to Robin? I know she could poison him or knife him to death when sleeping (and I wouldnt put it past her..all the while with crazy eyes popping out of her head) but can't Regina just send a text to Robin"Hey can't talk,  that's not Marion that is Zelena..get Roland and go someplace safe and then call me, will explain." But this is Once so...

 

Cruella will be on next week so it will be fun, I hope she and Zelena don't share scenes, there will be so much over the top camp that gay bars across America will spontaneously catch fire.

[Mathius]

https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/588381350148706304

Oh look, Adam just admitted the episode was "conceived" in November. Y'know, when the Adultery Queen outcry happened? He confirmed Zelena's return was already planned from the start like I figured, but this again reinforces my suspicion that they only chose the WAY she returned as a means to fight backlash.

[Curio]

He also said they discussed the episode over the summer during their writer's bootcamp, though. But who knows what the difference is between "discussing" an episode and actually "conceiving" it.

[FurryFury]

I don't really care if Zelena as Marian is retcon or not, because it makes zero sense both from inside the story and outside. In-universe, Zelena had NO reasons to pose as Robin's wife. She's a powerful sorceress, there are a 1000 ways to mess with Regina quicker and without all the hassle of impersonating a person she new nothing about (which she still somehow managed to pull off perfectly... until she couldn't). From outside of the story, making Marian be fake does nothing to clear the icky adultery factor, unless you think that your audience has the mental capacity of an eel, because it's still adultery if you don't know your wife isn't who you think she is. Robin still comes off as a douche he is if you spend a second thinking about it.

Edited April 15, 2015 by FurryFury

[Rumsy4]

He also said they discussed the episode over the summer during their writer's bootcamp, though. But who knows what the difference is between "discussing" an episode and actually "conceiving" it.

 

The same as the difference between a human baby and an eggbaby? :-p

 

They may have discussed the option to have Marian be Zelena over the summer, but didn't develop the thought further when planning for 4A. The idea was probably only partially-conceived at the time. 4A was crammed with Frozen and the Hat plot for the writers to focus on anything else. They went back to the idea when they started planning the rest of the OQ arc, and I can't but think that the backlash to the adultery situation influenced their final conception of this "twist". 

[DeLurker]

The same as the difference between a human baby and an eggbaby? :-p

I was going to go for a meatloaf vs bun in the oven.

[Shanna Marie]

As a writer, I would be hesitant to admit that the twist was planned all along because if it was, it was horribly executed. After a twist like that, you should be eager to go back and watch the previous episodes with this knowledge and see if you can spot the clues, and then have "aha!" moments when you see what was really going on right under your nose. You should not be making long lists of reasons it didn't make sense or contradicts what you saw.

[Curio]

As a writer, I would be hesitant to admit that the twist was planned all along because if it was, it was horribly executed.

 

Based on what we know about the show and these writers, I'm going to go with "planned all along, but horribly executed." Adam & Eddy probably knew in the back of their minds that they wanted to pull this off eventually, but they were too afraid to reveal their secret so they didn't tell the actress playing Marian about the twist until this last episode. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

Based on what we know about the show and these writers, I'm going to go with "planned all along, but horribly executed." Adam & Eddy probably knew in the back of their minds that they wanted to pull this off eventually, but they were too afraid to reveal their secret so they didn't tell the actress playing Marian about the twist until this last episode.

This seemed like an optional twist to me. They probably had the idea this whole time, but didn't plan on it until they felt it was necessary. So when Adultery Queen went awry and they needed even more fluff for 4B (since that's basically all it is - fluff), they pulled it out of the deck. But since there was very little reason to speculate this twist in 4A, it shows me they intentionally left it ambiguous in case they ended up not wanting to do it.

 

I do, however, wonder if it was in the original plan for 4A as part of that ending they filmed but never aired. This really was too big of a story development to have in the middle of a whole other pile of crazy. It sounds like one big vindication for Outlaw Queen + the return of A&E's other favorite. With Marian out of the way, OQ can go full force with absolutely no moral ambiguity. (Except not really.)

Edited April 15, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[AudienceofOne]

Based on what we know about the show and these writers, I'm going to go with "planned all along, but horribly executed."

 

 

You mean like the fact that all these characters we've been watching for years have conversations where they suddenly cry, "You're after the Author!" as though they knew about him all along but just forgot to mention him until now.

[OnceUponAJen]

Yes, if this Zelena/Marian thing was discussed last summer, they ought to have committed to it and started dropping clues for the viewers. I mean, we had no idea of how Marian would be conceived by them in the Once-verse. She could have been secretly evil as all hell in their minds...and that would have helped OQ. There was no guarantee that the cat would be out of the bag if they left little hints that she had a dark side.

[Worsel]

So, speaking of Robin and the apartment and Rumple refusing to take Neal's things (some very meager possessions at that) and going on about those things are Neal Cassidy's, I find it sort of interesting that the show has drawn a line between Baelfire and Neal much as most viewers have.  It's also sad that Rumple was very eh about Neal's things.

I found it sad and confusing that Rumple was so indifferent to Neal's things.  I know he wishes Neal would have kept his original name, and that adopting and keeping the new name was a rejection of Rumple.  But, given Rumple's promises to Neal's gravesite and pursuit of revenge by (not quite) killing Zelena, I would have thought he would be glad to remember and cherish all that was left of Bae, even if it was from the "Neal" era.  I think it diminishes Rumple's character and takes away from his devotion to his son.  But perhaps that is what the writers want to show - that Rumple's heart has become so blackened he cannot even cherish any memento of his son, especially if the memento raises some feelings of regret.

[Rumsy4]

As a writer, I would be hesitant to admit that the twist was planned all along because if it was, it was horribly executed. After a twist like that, you should be eager to go back and watch the previous episodes with this knowledge and see if you can spot the clues, and then have "aha!" moments when you see what was really going on right under your nose. 

 

That's what makes OUAT ultimately unsatisfying to watch. The writers either don't plan sufficient clues, or they use the deus ex machina to resolve a plot instead of using obvious solutions (like the gauntlet vs voice mail in 4A). If they had built on the discrepancy between Robin's account of Marian's death, and what was shown to happen in the S3 season finale, this twist would have been a little more believable. The writers could easily have made Marian Zelena all along, and shown the Real Marian dying in different circumstances. After all, Marian was frozen for most of 4A, and Robin was too busy mooning over Regina to have a long talk with his wife. "Marian" could have pretended that it was too painful for her to talk of how she ended up in Regina's dungeon. Instead, Zelena only takes over at the last minute before Hook and Emma make it back to Storybrooke. It is never explained why Robin thought it was his fault Marian died. 

 

The Zelena/Marian twist also makes little sense as Zelena's revenge, because all she ever wanted was to go back to the past and change her life. Why did she want to come back to Storybrooke where Regina had Light Magic and could defeat her? She could not have predicted that Marian was Robin's wife, or that Ingrid would curse her, or that Regina would convince Robin to go with her to the Real World, or that she would meet Rumple in New York, and that he would be at death's door, and she could force him to get the author to writer her a Happy Ending. How did she even know about the author? She was frozen for literally most of the time she was in Storybrooke. It doesn't make sense for Robin tell his wife about the Storybook, which was a symbol of hope for him and Regina. 

 

What makes more sense is that the writers wanted to throw an artificial roadblock to Outlaw Queen in order to show that Regina had changed, and to push the Author plot forward. The roadblock to OQ was removed once the Author plot was well under way. I still don't get why they made Regina the person who was about to execute Marian (and did execute her in the original timeline). Regina is once again going to gain something as a result of her past crimes. Ethically, Robin/Regina is still messed up. I guess Robin choosing Marian now was supposed to make up for Crypt Sex. I think they wanted to write Robin as someone who ultimately made the right choice after a weak moment, but it just makes Robin look desperate and wishy washy. Not to mention that once again, another character gets shafted for doing the "right" thing. 

Edited April 15, 2015 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

Zelena's beef was never really with Regina herself, per se. She was jealous of what Regina had, and she showed a lot of theater to make herself look better than her, but being a bug in her nose wasn't her core intent. If Zelena survived the mishap with Rumple in the jail, wouldn't she get right back to her time spell shenanigans? Wasn't that her plan? I just don't buy that sticking it to Regina was her ultimate plan. As much as Wicked vs. Evil was touted, the two sisters didn't seem to give two flips about each other. They just wanted to stop the other one for their own goals.

 

Zelena's entire purpose was to gain the life she never had. Shapeshifting into Marian to break up Outlaw Queen is irrelevant to that at this point.

Edited April 15, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Zelena literally turned into a green ghost so she could open a time portal in spirit form and hitch a ride to the past, because you know, that's what she wanted all along.  And then she turns around and hitches another ride back to Storybrooke, having accomplished nothing in the past, except stalk Captain Swan and kill some random woman, whose identity she could not have known. What was the point, again? It's unbelievable that Zelena did not go to the Evil Queen's castle, and try to sabotage her life. The real Zelena couldn't have helped checking out Regina's way of life at the height of her powers. .