S01.E10: Marco

[ToastnBacon]

I haven't seen Breaking Bad which is why, maybe this ending didn't work for me. I didn't buy it. Jimmy may be many things, but he doesn't appear to be stupid. If anything, I thought seeing his friend die in a dirty alley and his dying breath, "this was the best week of my life" was the wake up call Jimmy needed to turn his life around. I thought at the time Jimmy was thinking how very sad it his friend thought it was great; dying in a dirty alley...and for what?!

My take on that is Marco felt like the past week he was doing what he wanted to do. Using his skills to do something he thoroughly enjoyed, as opposed to working at the standpipe job with his brother-in-law.

He could have died in a dirty warehouse installing a standpipe... and for what?

For Marco, it was the rush of pulling a con, the thrill of the hunt.

 I really didn't think Jimmy would turn down the offer at the other law firm. I think it would have been more believable, at least for me, for Jimmy to accept the offer and then next season come to realize how corrupt and sleazy the new firm was and THIS would be the push towards him becoming Saul. I just didn't buy Jimmy turning away from Kim and his elderly clients. Wasn't one of the reasons he wanted to rent the big office was to entice Kim to join him? How could his current actions possibly impress Kim and why wouldn't he care about his clients who were counting on him?

I guess the shock would be if this finale was just a teaser, and Jimmy did turn around and join the other firm; only to find out he had joined a viper's den next season.

I think Jimmy realized that he needed the thrill of hunt too. He became a lawyer to please Kim and Chuck, but he wasn't fulfilled.

He knew he'd never gain Chuck's respect, and he knew he'd never win Kim's heart.

He doesn't go back to being a bar room grifter, instead he chooses something better, being Saul Goodman, Grifter at Law.

[DangerousMinds]

Screw apples! Just eat chocolate. 

 

Even the Saul we met on BB still had soft spots, without him Walter White woulda been sunk very early on. Even though he did it for the money he help Walter above and beyond the call of duty. Technically, he was an enabler for Walter, which isn't good, but he was still helpful.

Walter should have been stopped early on. Many people would still be alive. But then there wouldn't have been a show, I know.

[Boilergal]

I think the only reason he gave the Kettleman money back was because of Kim.

Remember, he was fine keeping his bribe until Kim got in a jam over the Kettelmans leaving HHM.

A few seconds after bailing on the meeting that Kim arranged with the Santa Fe law firm, he stopped to talk to Mike.

He makes a very strong declaration to Mike, "I know what stopped me from keeping it! And it is never stopping me again!"

What if Jimmy went after his law degree, and passed the bar to win Kim's approval more than Chuck's?

He never would have gotten as close as he did with Kim if he stayed in the mail room. They wouldn't have had anything in common to build a friendship on.

I feel confident in saying he was out to win Kim's approval, and he did, but not to the extent that he wanted.

He gave up on all of that as he was driving away to Smoke on the Water.

IIRC Jimmy wanted to work with the Kettleman's and get them a deal and get himself the glory while trying to screw HHM over.  But when he found out that Kim was being punished for the whole thing he had a change of heart let her work the deal.   

 

The Bribe - to me he seemed very conflicted - he really didn't want any part of embezzled money, but he knew it would help him out and he justified, in his own way, that it was a retainer and it was for working the case.  # hours, travel, materials.

 

I always got the sense that Jimmy and Kim had a real friendship and they would pretty much do anything for the other person, not that they were trying to win the others approval they already had it - started in the mailroom days and he did earn Kim's respect in passing the Bar.  But that was not what he was after - he was after the respect from his brother - something he learned he will never get, no matter how good he is, he will always be Slipping Jimmy the scam artist.

 

I honestly don't think he would cut Kim out of his life at this point - but I could see that he would move on without her.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Boilergal

[DangerousMinds]

I do want to see a happy ending for Jimmysaul beyond the Cinnabon.  I would be crushed if selling pastries at the mall would be his ultimate fate.

I would say he's lucky to have that job and apartment, etc. Lucky to be alive and not in prison.

[DangerousMinds]

That's true about giving the bribe.

But I'd say he didn't really want it in the first place-- he turned it down several times, and wanted to turn them in more.

Yes, he gave in and took it, but it wasn't his object. A lot of people couldn't resist temptation when they are that broke. And he didn't rush out and spend it.

 

I know he gave up on all that. I just didn't see why. They didn't sell it to me.

And he genuinely seemed surprised and unhappy that Nacho came to him with the idea of stealing the Kettleman's (stolen) money, just because they too were criminals. And he warned them.

[DangerousMinds]

I don't think Saul is all that "bad" either, but to say he's a lawyer who just gets his clients off is whitewashing the things he does.

We see only a little of Saul actually "lawyering" in Breaking Bad. What he does do for his clients is launder money, set up meetings between various criminals, hire thugs to intimidate (which at least once results in the accidental paralysis), steal (the poison cigarette), etc. in BB, Saul is very much a criminal himself.

 

I agree, and want to thank you for being considerate enough to add the spoiler tags. Sure, BB discussion is allowed, but I still abhor seeing posts that are solely BB-related, especially when they talk about the specifics of the story, naming exactly who died and how, etc. I hope those here who are watching this show and haven't yet seen BB will go on to do so, because it was such a joy to me. Also, there is still a BB forum here and I would love to see more conversation there.:) so thanks again for your respect for others.

[Ohwell]

Please, please let's not get into that discussion again.  We can talk about BB here without spoiler tags if we want to, and we shouldn't have to feel bad about it if we do.  I know I don't.

[DangerousMinds]

Really?

I didn't realize that Casa Tranquila had appeared in BCS.

Was it the same real-facility doubling as Sandpiper Crossing, or was it written into the script as Casa Tranquila?

Was Jimmy directing Bingo at Sandpiper or Casa Tranquila? I doubt that Sandpiper would have been willing to have him after all the legal issues he brought.

Please, please let's not get into that discussion again.  We can talk about BB here without spoiler tags if we want to, and we shouldn't have to feel bad about it if we do.  I know I don't.

I realize mileage varies.

[editorgrrl]

For now, any and all Breaking Bad discussion is allowed anywhere (except the BB-free thread). If you have opinions about this, this is the place to talk about them, and we're definitely open to changing the policy if it seems needed.

There's a Breaking Bad–free thread pinned at the top of this board: Better Talk Saul: BCS Only! You can read more about the spoiler policy (and share your opinion) in another pinned thread, What To Do With Breaking Bad Discussion/Spoilers—that's where the post quoted above can be found.

Edited to add that Dougal is a moderator, and the post I quoted above is not his personal opinion—it's official policy. No spoiler tags needed for any Breaking Bad content.

Edited April 9, 2015 by editorgrrl

[DangerousMinds]

I'm aware of the other thread. I just don't think it's that hard to add spoiler tags to some posts. But peace to you; I realize you don't agree and that's fine.

[ToastnBacon]

IIRC Jimmy wanted to work with the Kettleman's and get them a deal and get himself the glory while trying to screw HHM over. But when he found out that Kim was being punished for the whole thing he had a change of heart let her work the deal.

The Bribe - to me he seemed very conflicted - he really didn't want any part of embezzled money, but he knew it would help him out and he justified, in his own way, that it was a retainer and it was for working the case. # hours, travel, materials.

I always got the sense that Jimmy and Kim had a real friendship and they would pretty much do anything for the other person, not that they were trying to win the others approval they already had it - started in the mailroom days and he did earn Kim's respect in passing the Bar. But that was not what he was after - he was after the respect from his brother - something he learned he will never get, no matter how good he is, he will always be Slipping Jimmy the scam artist.

I honestly don't think he would cut Kim out of his life at this point - but I could see that he would move on without her.

You don't think Jimmy has an unfulfilled romance with Kim?

Even though they have only shown us the friendship side of their relationship, I think it is very obvious that Jimmy wants more between them than Kim does.

I'm convinced that is part of the equation we haven't been shown yet.

I said that Jimmy had won Kim's approval, but only as a friend. He busted his hump to become a lawyer to become suitable as a mate, but he is stuck in "Friendville" and he is never getting out.

He was trying to please Chuck to, but that wasn't all of it.

Edited April 8, 2015 by ToastnBacon

[ToastnBacon]

Idon't think Saul is all that "bad" either, but to say he's a lawyer who just gets his clients off is whitewashing the things he does.

We see only a little of Saul actually "lawyering" in Breaking Bad. What he does do for his clients is launder money, set up meetings between various criminals, hire thugs to intimidate (which at least once results in the accidental paralysis), steal (the poison cigarette), etc. in BB, Saul is very much a criminal himself.

 

As far as this episode goes, I liked it and unlike a lot of people here, I thought it pretty clearly showed his motivations. Some people said they thought he didn't look like he enjoyed the Chicago con-during the montage, but I disagree. I think we were clearly shown that he really enjoyed that and was in his element. During the montage, it's just that we were seeing him in the cons. He was acting and he's damn good at it. You see after the first con, he's elated. And we see him in the morning after the Kevin Costner girls wake up and he's really happy as well. He doesn't need it anymore financially and he is drawn to go back, but I think the show made it perfectly clear that that's him in his element.

 

BTW - I think maybe the most interesting thing of the episode (and maybe the whole first season) is from a couple of exchanges with Marco. It was good storytelling, IMO, to delay the present-day introduction of Marco until the end. Marco is basically Jimmy's BFF and should have some insight into the character's life that we weren't really privy to. And basically the first thing that Marco says when Jimmy brings up Chuck is that Chuck's a snobby prick and doesn't like Jimmy anyway. This is without the knowledge of the previous episode that we have.

 

Second, we have another character (this one who you have to consider closer than anyone else) who immediately assumes Jimmy is "dirty". Marco's eyes light up when Jimmy tells him he's a lawyer and asks him what cons he's pulling off. Just as Mike, as the Kettlemans, as Chuck, there's just nobody (except maybe Kim) that believes Jimmy can really be on the up and up.

 

Chuck is the Angel on Jimmy's shoulder and Marco the devil. And after spending some time with Marco, Jimmy is basically saying "why did I ever listen to that angel on my shoulder?"

Thank you!

There is an absurd amount of whitewashing of everything this character does in here. I like the character a lot too, but it gets ridiculous the lengths people go to excuse his misdeeds and scams.

I've been waiting for someone to call it adorable how he shit on two cub scouts.

[peeayebee]

Was Jimmy directing Bingo at Sandpiper or Casa Tranquila? I doubt that Sandpiper would have been willing to have him after all the legal issues he brought.

I can imagine that after this class-action lawsuit, Sandpiper would either change its name or be bought by another company. As far as Jimmy being at Sandpiper -- Didn't the judge rule that Sandpiper couldn't ban Jimmy from the premises?

[ShadowFacts]

 

There is an absurd amount of whitewashing of everything this character does in here. I like the character a lot too, but it gets ridiculous the lengths people go to excuse his misdeeds and scams.

I've been waiting for someone to call it adorable how he shit on two cub scouts.

He has done a lot of shitty things, pun intended.  The sunroof was crappy, no doubt about it.  He didn't have to include the details of the kids being inside in his retelling, but he did, he owned it.  That's not whitewashing what he did on my part, or his.  He told it like it was. He was telling the audience that he did a non-sexual revenge-motivated offense that his brother still makes him pay for 10 years later despite his work at trying to live up to old tinfoil bastard.  I don't think I've done any whitewashing or excusing in this episode thread; I understand his turnaround in the parking lot, based on everything we've seen happen in this episode.  I don't think it rings true that he would just be a no-show and diss Kim like he did, but he's had a tumultuous week or so and we'll have to see what happens with the two of them.  At any rate, I don't think I've seen any indications that anyone would think the sunroof was the least little bit adorable. As he said, not his finest hour.  But neither the criminal justice system (was he convicted?) nor Judeo-Christian teachings make people pay for minor offenses for the rest of their lives.  My takeaway from the brilliantly acted bingo scene was that everything he's done to atone for his crappy past has resulted in his respected brother thinking he is scum. He did not think that was part of the bargain.

[SlackerInc]

I just want to laugh and say no, but I wonder if there is some sort of lesser charge than rape for impersonating a famous person in order to entice another into having sex.

If a person could prove damages, then it could be a civil case.

I don't think a criminal charge of rape would ever stick, but then again you never know.

If that waitress was mentally challenged and deemed vulnerable under the law as a minor, well, there might be a case to bring a charge lewd enticement.

 

From reading through a link someone posted on another board, it looks like it could actually be prosecutable rape in Tennessee and Alabama.  (If the waitress was Kevin Costner's wife, which she was clearly not, it would be rape in a bunch more states.)

 

I would say he's lucky to have that job and apartment, etc. Lucky to be alive and not in prison.

 

Right, true.  He paid the vacuum guy a lot of money precisely because he was looking for that as a "best-case scenario".  It actually looks like he's in better shape than he was/is in the time period of this show.

[editorgrrl]

Even though they have only shown us the friendship side of their relationship, I think it is very obvious that Jimmy wants more between them than Kim does.

 

In "Nacho," when Jimmy told Kim he'd made an anonymous call to those Kettlemans she said, "You didn't— Oh, God, you didn't— You didn't do the sex robot voice, did you?" That might just be good-natured teasing between former co-workers. But earlier that same episode, this happened:

 

Kim: Hello?

Jimmy: Hey, it's me.

Kim: [Hoarsely] Jimmy? What's, uh, Jesus, what time is it? The clock says 2:00, but I think that might be Ho Chi Minh's time zone. What, what's happening? Is Chuck all right?

Jimmy: Yeah, Chuck—Chuck is Chuck, all right? Everything's all right. [Clears throat] I just wanted to call you. So, uh [deep breath], hey, what're you doing?

Kim: Jimmy, no. I'm not talking dirty to you.

Jimmy: What? Wait, you think that's the only reason I would call you at this time of night? I mean, can you just give me give me a little bit of credit, okay?… I am calling you tonight with quality PG phone conversation—PG-13 at worst.

Kim: Uh-huh.

Jimmy: Hand to God, you know? Uh, but, uh, if you hang up now and drive straight over, limited time only, I'm offering a free pedicure and foot bath.

Kim: Is that right? Well, maybe next time.

Jimmy: Hey, more for me.

 

My takeaway is that Jimmy and Kim had a sexual relationship at one time. But I've said it before and I'll say it again—I've learned to never assume anything when it comes to this show.

[queenanne]

The beautiful thing about Better Call Saul is that we can both be right. As ItsHelloPattiagain said upthread, we all watch the show through the lens of our individual experiences. To me, telling a grown-ass man, "see, I've written it right here on the box" is condescending. To old tinfoil bastard, saying "thank you" makes him a standup guy. And I can only hope that Chuck has developed even a shred of gratitude for everything Jimmy's done for him during the past year and half.

 

Chuck: All the originals need to be copied and filed. See, I've written right here on the box, "copy and file." That's to make it as clear as possible.

Ernie: Got it, Mr. McGill. Anything else?

Chuck: [Clears throat] Well, on the grocery front almost everything was right this time.

Ernie: Great.

Chuck: Almost. Um, it's a small thing, but to my taste, the, uh, Granny Smith apples are a bit too tart.

Ernie: Those are the green ones, right?

Chuck. Right. I prefer the red ones, but not Red Delicious—those are generally tasteless. Fujis should be in season. [Chuckles] It's not a major issue, but—

Ernie: Yeah, Fuji apples. OK.

Chuck: Oh, and I'd like to try soy milk, so maybe a half gallon of that.

Ernie: You got it.

Chuck: Well, thank you, Ernesto. I appreciate your attention to detail. Do you need to write any of this down? 'Cause it's okay if you do. You know, just to be sure.

 

Wondering in retrospect if Chuck's condescension is supposed to be part and parcel of his lawyerdom -  because I've worked for older lawyers, and while Chuck is one up on the "thank you" realm, this is also a strong contribution to the portrait of the older lawyer, one who very much thinks that "my work" exists, and over in the other realm, is "menial women's work" (because only women are secretaries, don'tcha know).  It's only since the advent of personal computing that it became chic for lawyers to be able to do their own work (though the jury may be out on what happens for these young attorneys as they age out and become senior partners with more demands on their time).  I have very, very much had old fart attorney bosses who have treated me like a maid with a keyboard attached to my fingers.  (This may be stretching as "that man" might write "copy and file" on boxes; on the other hand, "that man" is also capable of thinking the half of me that he doesn't think is idiot, is a savant; and expecting me to be able to troubleshoot and explain the technobabble of an email bounce-back string, though he has no expectation of thinking I'm an IT tech).  Because this would all be "the same guy" - the type of lawyer who wouldn't ever dream of running a TV commercial, billboard, or any other type of advertising, because to harken back to an older post of mine, he'd have that trailing-Dickens-era attitude towards what "the genteel lawyer" does.

Edited April 8, 2015 by queenanne

[ToastnBacon]

 

My takeaway is that Jimmy and Kim had a sexual relationship at one time. But I've said it before and I'll say it again—I've learned to never assume anything when it comes to this show.

I think that is plausible, and I even characterized their relationship that way earlier, but I don't see Kim ever marrying a guy like Jimmy, especially now.

I think a Kim and Hamlin hook-up is very likely in the next season, but like you said, anything can happen on this show.

[Umbelina]

I think he has already proven Chuck right. Chuck's fear was that if he let Jimmy join HHM, that somehow, some way, Slippin Jimmy would show up ... eventually. We were supposed to take Jimmy's side, because that seemed like an unfair judgment by Chuck about how own brother. But low and behold, that's exactly what happened. When push came to shove, Jimmy went back to Chicago, found his old friend and ended up being Slippin Jimmy again. So Chuck was right, even if you factor in that Chuck was part of what put Jimmy in that dark place. True heroes rise to the occassion regardless of how they ended up on the floor. Jimmy, as much as he has some good characteristics, is no hero. Plus, this is the point of the show, so ....

 

I didn't have a problem with how the end scene went down. I did feel a bit of ... irksomeness? .... that we watched a whole season rooting for a guy who we are shown was never going to be what we were rooting for. Which is stupid of me, because we know where Jimmy ends up. I guess I can't help but pull for underdogs.

 

I don't think he has proven Chuck right.  I think he quit listening to what other people want from him, and is off to find out what he wants.  Chuck completely broke his heart, and almost his spirit.  He didn't do the cons with Marco until he realized Marco was upset that Jimmy had been there before and not looked him up, he seemed almost like another brother to Jimmy, but this one didn't hate, resent, or undermine him.  So he, much as he had done for Chuck, tried to please him.  Did he have a line "I'm a people pleaser!" in there somewhere.  Ha.  He may have, and this episode surely showed that. 

 

His Chicago Sun Roof rant also kind of led him to realize that even crooks deserve good lawyers, since his connected victim got all of the charges bumped up to the absurd.  You know, his friend, that borrowed money from him, still owed it, and was screwing his wife.  Heck, I've read of cases where the husband in that situation shoots the guy  and gets off.  Sex Offender?  Really?

 

Jimmy isn't turning back into slippin' Jimmy, he's off to find his own path, which is probably somewhere in the middle, give or take an extreme here or there. 

 

I agree with the rest of the post, with the exception of the above.  Chuck is different from Jimmy in that he had it within him to sabotage his brother for years, while Jimmy has inherent mercy and empathy and fairness which he has shown with Marco and Kim and the elders and of course, Chuck himself.  He still needs to make sure Chuck is taken care of.  Chuck whistles after Jimmy is emotionally shattered.  It's more than retreat and control to me.

 

Exactly.  Chuck is a fucking asshole, selfish, sanctimonious, jealous, egotistical prick who did nothing but use, and lie to Jimmy, while trying to keep him in his place, "menial job." 

I was not clever enough to notice that the Bs in the bingo scene were referencing Breaking Bad. But once someoene else pointed that out, I noticed they were all blue! It's like the Bs were saying "Break bad, break bad!" And then he ran off to Cicero to "get it out of his system."

All apples of a specific variety are cloned from one single mother plant. But as you clone clones again and again, just like a photocopy degrades, so does the plant. Red Delicious has been around a long time, thus the strain has degraded. And my current favorite is Opal!

This is my first post here at Previously TV and it's nice to see a lot of handles I recognize from my 15 years at you-know-where. Nice to see you all.

Anxiouisly awaiting the podcast! It's not up yet!

I didn't catch them as Breaking Bad, I thought they were for "Brother" the only obvious word he was avoiding that started with B, which lead to the whole "Chuck got him off" charges that shouldn't have been there in the first place.  Guess what?  Jimmy could now do the same, sans the hero worship and eternal gratitude and guilt Chuck tacked on to the bill.  The BB thing works as well, as a little easter egg.

 

Have your Red Delicious apples in the fall, they will be very, very tasty, and great with a good cheddar cheese.  Yum.  The mealiness is from storage, and I think they sell well because they store well, at least in appearance, not so much in taste.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Umbelina

[Starchild]

Someone upthread mentioned how it might be interesting to see Jimmy and Hamlin go head-to-head. I was thinking along the same lines, although I wasn't thinking of Hamlin.

 

I wonder if G+G could somehow swing it so that Jimmy and Chuck were adversaries in the courtroom. How would Chuck react if we were beaten, fair and square, by someone who was not a real lawyer?

[carrps]

Huh? What? You guys are killing me here. I just figured out that I did not miss a Crazy 8 cameo in the actual episode, and now you're telling me they were in Philly, not Cicero???

Anyway, is this the commercial all you fine upstanding cable-paying citizens saw?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WegzlLehL5o

Aaaahhh. It's Düci!

 

(My grandma's evil Puli).

[Madding crowd]

I was kind of disappointed in the episode overall and think there should have been more steps in the process. I'm not sure what they can show me next season except Saul setting up his strip mall practice. I appreciated the Cicero references especially since I live not that far from there and I know Odenkirk is from Berwyn but I really hated the scams and the montage. I don't believe for a minute anyone could make a huge amount of money I'm 2005 from these scams. The scams rely on two things: people carrying around hundreds or thousands of dollars in their wallets, and these same people being dumb. Add to that the number of times the cops would be called and/or the mark would beat the hell of the the scammer, and not worth it.

 

The bingo hall scene was good though and I still adore Jimmy. Saul, not so much.

[Boilergal]

You don't think Jimmy has an unfulfilled romance with Kim?

Even though they have only shown us the friendship side of their relationship, I think it is very obvious that Jimmy wants more between them than Kim does.

I really don't think so - I think he is content with what he has with Kim.  I think in the early episodes there was talk about phone sex and an implied booty calls - so it seems to be something that they had (mailroom days?)  it didn't work out, but they remained great friends.  Jimmy knows it will never be anything more than what currently exists. 

 

As an aside, I think they have shown Kim as a strong, driven, professional woman who doesn't care to be in any sort or romantic relationship she is career motivated - this is a boundary that Jimmy respects, and values their friendship.

 

Since they said their mom died several years ago - it makes me think that Chuck is the only family that Jimmy has left.  He has put so much of himself into helping Chuck, taking care of him, supporting his crazy, convincing others the crazy is real, making him the tinfoil coat to go to HHM, trying to get him back into society, defending him to Marco  - he's family and he loves him and wanted Chuck to be proud of him.  I think Jimmy believed that if he passed the Bar that Chuck would finally be proud of him and see that he turned his life around,  - he was utterly blindsided by the venom from Chuck that he will always be Slipping JImmy, and how his law degree was trash.

 

It was Chuck's betrayal that broke him - that sent him to Chicago.  If Chuck still thinks I'm slipping Jimmy and I haven't changed, maybe he's right.  Starts running the scams, has some fun, but it's not like before, then hearing the voice mails from his clients he realized where he needed to be. 

[editorgrrl]

Since they said their mom died several years ago - it makes me think that Chuck is the only family that Jimmy has left. 

 

Jimmy & Chuck's mom died three years ago. In the 1992 flashback where Chuck defends Jimmy against the Chicago sunroof charges, Chuck was wearing a wedding ring. So he probably has an ex-wife out there somewhere—perhaps even children. The only way they could have communicated with Chuck during the past year and a half is by going to his house, by mail, or via Jimmy.

 

And Jimmy has an ex-wife, too—the one who slept with Chet.

 

Edited to add that I think Howard Hamlin wears a wedding ring—and they've never revealed who the other Hamlin is in HHM. During the pedicure scene, Kim told Jimmy about the end of her grandmother's life. Since HHM paid Kim's way through law school, I assume she's not from a wealthy family.

Edited April 9, 2015 by editorgrrl

[Tabasco Cat]

I guess because I always think of ambulance chasers in strip malls as being desperate for business. I don't think any lawyer goes to law school to practice that way.

 

You'd be surprised. I know a few who came from families with money, weren't the smartest guys and gals in the room, but who needed to be lawyers to preserve a modicum of social status: eating at the right restaurants, joining the right country clubs, going to the right parties, etc. They went to respected law schools fully intending to get into personal injury law once they passed the bar. It's easy work compared to what litigators and trial attorneys do. You never go to court, your assistants and paralegals do all the legwork and you collect your third of the settlement.

 

So anyone who binges this show likely won't be as frustrated by this episode as some of us are.  Because I agree with a review I heard--it felt simultaneously slow and rushed.

 

That's damning it with faint praise, but in essence I think you're right. Which only serves to make me a little angry with myself for watching it now and not waiting a couple of years until I could watch the whole thing at my own pace. This long offseason stuff is for the birds.

 

Where can I buy a microphone like the one Jimmy uses for Bingo?

 

It's a Sony ECM-51 http://misterk60.com/ecm51.html that Jimmy is using http://happynicetimepeople.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/saul-1.7-bingo-770x514.jpg The same kind used by Bob Barker on The Price is Right. A classic. Very expensive second-hand market, but way cool.

 

There is an absurd amount of whitewashing of everything this character does in here. I like the character a lot too, but it gets ridiculous the lengths people go to excuse his misdeeds and scams.

 

You have to admit the story about shitting on the two Cub Scouts was just about as cute as it gets. Except for puppies. And kittens.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Chuck: Well, thank you, Ernesto. I appreciate your attention to detail. Do you need to write any of this down? 'Cause it's okay if you do. You know, just to be sure.

Attending to details should be automatic for someone working at an upscale law firm, so commenting on it and suggesting writing things down comes off as very condescending, but I think Chuck was just afraid that Ernesto would get fed up and half-ass the tasks, claiming he "forgot" some of what Chuck asked for.

[haydensterling]

Jimmy doesn't have to be reduced to A or B. He's the complex lead of the show.

 

My god, thank you for saying this.  Jimmy is the protagonist of the show.  He can be as complex as they want him to be.

Edited April 11, 2015 by haydensterling

[ketose]

I think Chuck is making some of his requests up as he goes along. Like he probably just asked for "apples" and waiting for them to be wrong so he could make a big show about how Ernesto needs to learn to take directions.

[lucindabelle]

I think Chuck is making some of his requests up as he goes along. Like he probably just asked for "apples" and waiting for them to be wrong so he could make a big show about how Ernesto needs to learn to take directions.

  

Attending to details should be automatic for someone working at an upscale law firm, so commenting on it and suggesting writing things down comes off as very condescending, but I think Chuck was just afraid that Ernesto would get fed up and half-ass the tasks, claiming he "forgot" some of what Chuck asked for.

Yes, shows that Chuck really doesn't understand how to deal with people, let alone manage them.

[editorgrrl]

• I've decided that ultimately Jimmy is Gollum.  The pull of what Marco's ring represents ends up driving his actions and his core self-belief.  Now, I would dearly love to know if Saul was wearing that ring at the Cinnabon or in his Nebraska digs.

 

Gene was mostly wearing food service gloves at the Cinnabon, but they showed his hands mixing that Rusty Nail and getting the VHS tape out of the shoebox. Time for a rewatch!

 

Here's what Bob Odenkirk told Entertainment Weekly about Marco's ring:

Remember the scene in the tailor shop, where [Jimmy's] looking at the lime green shirt and the paisley tie? Saul Goodman is kind of boiling on a backburner in his head the whole time; he just doesn’t know it. The ring, to me, is a physical manifestation of “Don’t ever forget that kind of love and acceptance that you should be wanting from the world and that you should give yourself and let yourself appreciate and feel.” It reminds him of his friend.

[Milburn Stone]

He didn't go from "I have to quit this life and go back to my clients" to "Screw this, I'm going to be a criminal". He went from "I have to go back to my clients" to "I'll pull the good 'ol Rolex scam with my buddy Marco one last time, before going back" to "Sh*t! My buddy Marco dropped dead after spending the past 10 years doing crap he didn't like doing, and I've been doing stuff for the last decade which I fundamantally didn't enjoy, because I was trying to please somebody else; do I really want the legal training Iworked so hard to obtain to be employed in a practice I really don't find to be enjoyable?"

 

Except, it sure looked to me that the reason he was pursuing the nursing home case was not just that he wanted to win Chuck's approval, but that he really dug the opportunity to protect helpless old people from a rapacious corporation exploiting them. And I still think that. I guess the bingo scene was meant to show us that he no longer gave a fuck about the helpless old people, but that's not consistent with how he appeared to us before. He wasn't just faking getting satisfaction out of helping them with their wills and such; he was getting genuine satisfaction out of it. And he got really charged up when he discovered how they were being ripped off.

 

So when he turned his back on that kind of helping-defenseless-good-folks practice at the end--a practice in which he could do well by doing good--I guess I understood why it was supposed to make sense, but I didn't really feel it. 

Edited April 9, 2015 by Milburn Stone

[editorgrrl]

So when he turned his back on that kind of helping-defenseless-good-folks practice at the end--a practice in which he could do well by doing good--I guess I understood why it was supposed to make sense, but I didn't really feel it. 

 

When did Jimmy turn his back on his practice? He walked away from a meeting with Davis & Main, with whom HHM is partnering on the Sandpiper case. The plaintiffs won't get Jimmy's personal touch, but they will get plenty of money.

 

And I think Jimmy went back to Albuquerque to return those 15 voicemails. (Remember when he used to wiggle his fingers before checking his messages?) Some were existing clients, others were new business. Rome wasn't built in a day, and Jimmy needs to keep his practice going just to pay the bills. Mike's still working at the parking garage. 

[Umbelina]

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/04/06/bob-odenkirk-better-call-saul-finale-david-cross-netflix-sketch 

Interview with Odenkirk.

 

I'm posting this one, from the media thread, here because it's so good, and covers so much of what we've been discussing here.  So for those who don't check that thread?  Enjoy.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Umbelina

[Tabasco Cat]

After a few days to reflect on the season I've come to the conclusion that while the finale was a letdown, this is still (to use one of Vince Gilligan's favorite words) a wonderful show with wonderful showrunners, wondeful writers, wonderful directors, wonderful production people, and a wonderful cast. I can't wait for it to start up again.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Tabasco Cat

[Milburn Stone]

When did Jimmy turn his back on his practice? He walked away from a meeting with Davis & Main, with whom HHM is partnering on the Sandpiper case. The plaintiffs won't get Jimmy's personal touch, but they will get plenty of money.

 

My understanding--correct me if I'm wrong--is that even if Jimmy signed over the "ownership" of the case for a large contingency fee, the case has much more chance of success if he is part of it. That is the only reason the Santa Fe law firm extended an offer to him. They're aware that unless they have a member on their team whom the old folks trust, the strength of the case they can build will suffer, with a likely difference in outcome.

 

By walking away, Jimmy is making it less likely that the rapacious nursing home corporation will be penalized for its actions, and less likely that they will change their way of doing business. This is something he cared about, not just because he saw a big payday but because he wanted to stand up for the little guy. This is why his walkaway didn't feel believably motivated to me. Not in full.

 

Even in his Chicago scams with Marco, their targets were people who were greedy. There was an element of Robin Hood in their scams, in confining their stealing to those who in some sense deserved to get stolen from. That's the same impulse that motivated his suit against the nursing home. I don't know where that impulse went. 

Edited April 10, 2015 by Milburn Stone

[editorgrrl]

My understanding--correct me if I'm wrong--is that even if Jimmy signed over the "ownership" of the case for a large contingency fee, the case has much more chance of success if he is part of it. That is the only reason the Santa Fe law firm extended an offer to him. They're aware that unless they have a member on their team whom the old folks trust, the strength of the case they can build will suffer, with a likely difference in outcome.

I have no idea if your understanding is right or wrong—only that it's different than mine. I think Davis & Main are interested in Jimmy because he's a rainmaker. They're using the opportunity to work on "his" case as an incentive. They don't need Jimmy on the Sandpiper Crossing case—they want him to join their firm.

Some of the plaintiffs met Jimmy in the mall while they were race walking, and new ones are being added every day—from a dozen different facilities—who've never even heard of the guy.

Edited April 10, 2015 by editorgrrl

[LoneHaranguer]

 

I have no idea if your understanding is right or wrong—only that it's different than mine. I think Davis & Main are interested in Jimmy because he's a rainmaker. They're using the opportunity to work on "his" case as an incentive. They don't need Jimmy on the Sandpiper Crossing case—they want him to join their firm.

I would agree that he doesn't need to take the job for the plaintiffs to get their due. And he doesn't need to take it to try to get Chuck's respect, because that won't happen. But why isn't he taking it for himself?

[ToastnBacon]

I would agree that he doesn't need to take the job for the plaintiffs to get their due. And he doesn't need to take it to try to get Chuck's respect, because that won't happen. But why isn't he taking it for himself?

To be unrestricted and free to be the style of lawyer that he wants to be.

He has enough money to kick start his own practice now, why does he need to join a law firm where he'll have to conform to their culture.

Jimmy gets a kick out of running his little scams, why go to a firm and be under the thumb of the senior partners?

[ShadowFacts]

I thought it was a bit of a contrivance to have the case kicked up to another firm, to give Jimmy the chance to join a big practice and then reject it.  Howard had said, I think, that the case was a slam dunk.  HHM appears to be a pretty big firm, from the various shots of the building and all the employees who welcomed Chuck back.  I guess it makes it more dramatic, Jimmy's busting loose.  He could have had all of that, Chuck couldn't hold him back anymore, and Kim was instrumental in it, but he thumbs his nose at all of it.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Jimmy gets a kick out of running his little scams, why go to a firm and be under the thumb of the senior partners?

He didn't have to be. Not conforming would mean that his time there would be limited, but so what? He could get what he could and leave better off.

Edited April 10, 2015 by LoneHaranguer

[candall]

There are a lot of defense lawyers out there who say that even drug dealers need defending.

******

 

That may be the evolution. [,,,] Next season he may be a perfectly legitimate defense attorney who inadvertently gets drawn into shady acts. [...] I think there's more rabbit hole to go in the creation of Saul Goodman.

I was a public defender for awhile, with all kinds of bad clients, and I didn't suffer too much moral dilemma.  For me, the job was making sure the rules of law were observed and applied evenly across the board and no one got railroaded.  (People who don't want to have to worry about their own doors being battered down in the middle of the night can't be allowed to just handwave away the requirement for a warrant when the door belongs to someone else.)

 

****

I hope you're right about next season.  I really, really want to watch more of Jimmy being an effective advocate on behalf of his clients.  Based on Mike's theory about good versus legal, and Jimmy's new cynicism, they can have Jimmy be open to clipping a corner here and there, all in the name of justice.  Watching him pick up speed on the slippery slope would be terrific.

*****

 

I only watched the first few episodes of BB.  I thought the moral struggles of the chemistry teacher were well-written and intense, but I dropped out when it looked like those issues were resolved in favor of the drug dealer anti-hero persona.  Since I don't have any idea what "Saul" is like in BB, I hate to go digging through the BB/BCS thread, so can someone just tell me:  Was BB as good as this show?

[editorgrrl]

I only watched the first few episodes of BB.  I thought the moral struggles of the chemistry teacher were well-written and intense, but I dropped out when it looked like those issues were resolved in favor of the drug dealer anti-hero persona.  Since I don't have any idea what "Saul" is like in BB, I hate to go digging through the BB/BCS thread, so can someone just tell me:  Was BB as good as this show?

 

That's entirely subjective. Breaking Bad is less funny than Better Call Saul, and Walter White is way less likable than Jimmy McGill. (IMO, Walt's an asshole. But I hate Don Draper and love watching Mad Men.)

 

Both shows have Vince Gilligan and a lot of the same people behind the scenes, so I think you should give Breaking Bad another shot. At the very least, you'll have the fun of discovering Saul Goodman after you've spent a whole season with Jimmy McGill, and you'll see what happens to Mike. You'll probably even recognize some VG trademarks.

Edited April 10, 2015 by editorgrrl

[shapeshifter]

...I only watched the first few episodes of BB. I thought the moral struggles of the chemistry teacher were well-written and intense, but I dropped out when it looked like those issues were resolved in favor of the drug dealer anti-hero persona. Since I don't have any idea what "Saul" is like in BB, I hate to go digging through the BB/BCS thread, so can someone just tell me: Was BB as good as this show?

"As good as" is, of course, always going to be in the eye of the beholder. Interestingly, I put off watching BB until the third season for just about the same reason you quit: I thought it was glorifying a chemistry teacher who deals drugs. But once I started catching up, I quickly surmised that the chemistry teacher drug dealer would suffer the realistic consequences of his actions. So, when I say that, IMO, it was the best TV series of all time, that does not necessarily mean you will think so. Nevertheless, I do have a lot of company in that opinion. Go for it.

ETA: Many thanks to all of the posters on TVWoP who encouraged me to start watching BrBa.

Edited April 10, 2015 by shapeshifter

[ShadowFacts]

I heartily second what editorgrrl and shapeshifter have said.  I think watching BB could enrich your BCS experience, in one way or another.  The storytelling, acting and directing are stellar.  Even if you don't want to watch, I will answer in the affirmative and say yes, it was as good as this show.  But with considerably more violence, and that was hard for me. 

[Umbelina]

I was a public defender for awhile, with all kinds of bad clients, and I didn't suffer too much moral dilemma.  For me, the job was making sure the rules of law were observed and applied evenly across the board and no one got railroaded.  (People who don't want to have to worry about their own doors being battered down in the middle of the night can't be allowed to just handwave away the requirement for a warrant when the door belongs to someone else.)

 

****

I hope you're right about next season.  I really, really want to watch more of Jimmy being an effective advocate on behalf of his clients.  Based on Mike's theory about good versus legal, and Jimmy's new cynicism, they can have Jimmy be open to clipping a corner here and there, all in the name of justice.  Watching him pick up speed on the slippery slope would be terrific.

*****

 

I only watched the first few episodes of BB.  I thought the moral struggles of the chemistry teacher were well-written and intense, but I dropped out when it looked like those issues were resolved in favor of the drug dealer anti-hero persona.  Since I don't have any idea what "Saul" is like in BB, I hate to go digging through the BB/BCS thread, so can someone just tell me:  Was BB as good as this show?

Honestly, it's right up there, if not the very best show I've ever watched on TV.  For real.  I've loved others, for different reasons, but this one will hold up.

 

It's tense, heartbreaking, funny in spots, Mike's story there is amazing, I honestly can't think of a single character on the show that wasn't fully fleshed out in believable ways for their part, casting was stellar, the cinematography awe inspiring and perfectly blended with each story, and best of all, the ending didn't disappoint, to me, it was perfection.

 

I bought the DVD's recently and wondered if I'd ever really be able to take that journey again.  The answer is, yes.  I also came late to the show, tried to like it, didn't, probably because I came in on a specific episode that felt just horrible and bleak to me, isolated as it was by my seeing that one first (the train heist) and didn't watch again until the marathon leading up to the finale began.

 

Once I watched from the beginning, I found myself staying up all night, and getting up again at 5AM when it started again.  It was that good.  I don't know what watching it was like in real time.  As a marathon though, and later with the DVD's to catch the stuff I missed?  Just perfection.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Umbelina

[ToastnBacon]

Other than some of the series that HBO produced, BB is one of my favorites too.

I came to it late and binge watched it too.

If you are enjoying BCS, I don't see how you wouldn't enjoy BB.

[shapeshifter]

...But with considerably more violence, and that was hard for me.

I can tolerate violence if it's not just gratuitous violence, and by that I mean violence for it's own sake rather than to tell a story. I do think Breaking Bad never had gratuitous violence by that definition. BCS did have the skate boarders legs broken, albeit off camera. Anyway, I will be a happier camper if BCS continues to have less violence.

And now back to our regularly scheduled discussion of the episode:

I keep forgetting to ask: Did the mark who ran off when Marco was dying actually get $1000 from the wallet?

[Umbelina]

Sure seemed like he did.  Saul didn't need the money anyway, he was just doing the scams for Marco.

[DangerousMinds]

Jimmy & Chuck's mom died three years ago. In the 1992 flashback where Chuck defends Jimmy against the Chicago sunroof charges, Chuck was wearing a wedding ring. So he probably has an ex-wife out there somewhere—perhaps even children. The only way they could have communicated with Chuck during the past year and a half is by going to his house, by mail, or via Jimmy.

 

And Jimmy has an ex-wife, too—the one who slept with Chet.

 

Edited to add that I think Howard Hamlin wears a wedding ring—and they've never revealed who the other Hamlin is in HHM. During the pedicure scene, Kim told Jimmy about the end of her grandmother's life. Since HHM paid Kim's way through law school, I assume she's not from a wealthy family.

Saul says at some point in BB that his second ex-wife slept with his stepfather.

[queenanne]

I only watched the first few episodes of BB.  I thought the moral struggles of the chemistry teacher were well-written and intense, but I dropped out when it looked like those issues were resolved in favor of the drug dealer anti-hero persona.  Since I don't have any idea what "Saul" is like in BB, I hate to go digging through the BB/BCS thread, so can someone just tell me:  Was BB as good as this show?

 

Oh dear me, yes.  The way I think of/grew to see BB is, it's a story about the inexorable drumbeat of hubris dragging down a well-meaning man, more than "bad guys always prosper".  (And I'm a person who gave up after Episode 4 on disc the first time around.  For some reason it just struck me wrong.  I wholly missed the enchantment my friend experienced; he wore me down a second time around by sheer repetition.  "I can't believe you didn't like Breaking Bad.  It's so good!")  Though I should clarify, I gave up partly because I hated Jesse after the first 4 episodes; it wasn't Walt who bothered me, so our perspectives are already different.  By the end Jesse was one of my favorite characters ever, and I think that's the personal charm of Aaron Paul. 

 

But BB itself?  Sheer artistry IMO.  Especially when you think about all the myriad of ways a group of people could put a foot wrong telling this type of story.