S01.E10: Marco

[Ronin Jackson]

I've run into many people who were hesitant to get into BB for a variety of reasons. The premise wasn't compelling, it sounded like it was glorifying meth cooking, etc. I don't think I've run into anyone who has kept watching through the second season who didn't A) end up watching the whole thing, usually by binging or B) didn't find it absolutely stellar, if not the best series of all time. I'm sure there is a contrarian out there, but at the very least any BCS viewer owes it to themselves to give it a go. It's a long wait til season 2... trust me that's way more time than you'll need. :)

Edited April 11, 2015 by Ronin Jackson

[Umbelina]

I think many people gave up for two simple reasons.

 

Cancer.

 

Meth.

 

Why on earth do I want to watch a show about both of those things, or really, either one?  It became so much more though. 

[wrestlesflamingos]

Breaking Bad is the best character study I have ever seen even. It is also emotional complex and draining. You can't passively watch it, it takes something from you. The way the plot moves is incredibly honest. Not everyone likes it. Some say its just a series of ticking clocks with no depth. I found an extraordinary amount of substance to the entire series. I watched it in first run and probably a 6 rewatches. The shows don't compare. Its like All in the Family and The Jeffersons. They Start/End together but that's it.

[Starchild]

Agreed. Until I watched BB I believed the best show ever made was the new Battlestar Galactica. After BB I was torn. Then I realized they could both be #1 because it was apples and oranges. As a study of the evolution of a single character, BB is it. BSG, on the other hand, follows the changes that a host of well-drawn characters noble and flawed, go through, within themselves and amongst each other, in the most desperate struggle of their lives.

[wrestlesflamingos]

Well, those shows aren't connected. I was comparing spinoffs.

[queenanne]

I just missed its charms wholly the first time around; too bleak, too depressingly lower-class, RJ Mitte spent that entire scene in the store (and maybe even the first 4 episodes), just drifting around silently, I thought they were going to tell me he was mute and/or mentally r*******, which would have depressed me further about the portrait of Walt.  Not only did I hate Jesse until about the midpoint of second season (once he

fell into the chemical toilet

I actually felt quite good-humored about him), but I wished they had traded him for Krazy-8 whom I found more charming, so further doomed to disappointment, lol.

[Irlandesa]

I only watched the first few episodes of BB.  I thought the moral struggles of the chemistry teacher were well-written and intense, but I dropped out when it looked like those issues were resolved in favor of the drug dealer anti-hero persona.  Since I don't have any idea what "Saul" is like in BB, I hate to go digging through the BB/BCS thread, so can someone just tell me:  Was BB as good as this show?

I know everyone else has responded but I'll also say that I think the totality of Breaking Bad is exceptional.  Season 1 of Better Call Saul might be a touch better but it wasn't hampered with a writers' strike like Breaking Bad was.  However, I think it's unfair to compare since what Breaking Bad did was such a singular achievement. Its ability to tell a full complete story without much fat while also being a character study is pretty amazing.  I don't know when you gave up but it's not a linear progression.  The show goes back and forth between two different personas.  I think the biggest surprise for me was which persona was actually the authentic one when it came to Walter White.  It took me a while to realize it but when I went back to watch, I saw things I didn't see at first because I had one of idea of who he was supposed to be based on good old fashioned television tropes I brought to my viewing and he was actually quite different all along.

 

No promises that you'll enjoy it but I think it's far simpler than drug kingpin badass.  Multiple characters do struggle with their own morality. 

Edited April 11, 2015 by Irlandesa

[Starchild]

Well, those shows aren't connected. I was comparing spinoffs.

Oh for sure, I was just expanding on your idea that two shows that don't compare can be equally good.

[SlackerInc]

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/04/06/bob-odenkirk-better-call-saul-finale-david-cross-netflix-sketch 

Interview with Odenkirk.

 

I'm posting this one, from the media thread, here because it's so good, and covers so much of what we've been discussing here.  So for those who don't check that thread?  Enjoy.

 

That really is a treat!  Thank you.  I loved this part in particular:

 

Saul Goodman, as presented in Breaking Bad, was a wonderfully fun, but a little bit of a thin character, and I’m not sure he can lose that many dimensions, both because we’ve already experienced that many, and because he’s at the core of this show. You’re not only going to see him in his office: You’re going to see him go home and deal with the consequences of his choices. I don’t think he’ll ever be just pure Saul Goodman for a whole episode and never see Jimmy McGill in the course of that episode. We now have a far, far more fleshed-out character, and he’s going to remain that way.

 

 

 

I was a public defender for awhile, with all kinds of bad clients, and I didn't suffer too much moral dilemma.  For me, the job was making sure the rules of law were observed and applied evenly across the board and no one got railroaded.  (People who don't want to have to worry about their own doors being battered down in the middle of the night can't be allowed to just handwave away the requirement for a warrant when the door belongs to someone else.)

 

****

I hope you're right about next season.  I really, really want to watch more of Jimmy being an effective advocate on behalf of his clients.  Based on Mike's theory about good versus legal, and Jimmy's new cynicism, they can have Jimmy be open to clipping a corner here and there, all in the name of justice.  Watching him pick up speed on the slippery slope would be terrific.

*****

 

I only watched the first few episodes of BB.  I thought the moral struggles of the chemistry teacher were well-written and intense, but I dropped out when it looked like those issues were resolved in favor of the drug dealer anti-hero persona.  Since I don't have any idea what "Saul" is like in BB, I hate to go digging through the BB/BCS thread, so can someone just tell me:  Was BB as good as this show?

 

First off, kudos for being a conscientious public defender.

 

Second, I'll chime in and say that I am one of the chorus who considers BB the greatest TV show of all time (and I never thought my previous favorite, and still #2, Six Feet Under, would ever be dethroned).

 

I just missed its charms wholly the first time around; too bleak, too depressingly lower-class, 

 

Whoa, you must be loaded.  I know they had money stresses, but I'd love to have the Whites' house.  With that pool out back?  Fuhgeddaboudit.  Looks like a pretty solidly middle class existence to me.

[ketose]

Instead of gushing over BrBa, I will point out a similarity between it and BCS. Either Vince or one of the other writers said that the original story line for BB was that Walt was thrown into bad circumstances even when he tried to get out of them. You can see that in S1. Then, they decided that Walt was going to be the captain of his destiny.

 

I think there's a similar correction going on with BCS. S1 was supposed to be "Jimmy tried to be a real lawyer and got shot down, so he became Saul." Now it looks like James McGill still has some time left in this world.

[DangerousMinds]

The Whites owned a house, 2 cars, a pool. Not that depressing to me.

[Ohwell]

I just missed its charms wholly the first time around; too bleak, too depressingly lower-class,

Wow, I thought the Whites had a nice house in a nice, middle-class neighborhood, and Jesse had an even nicer house (that he wouldn't take care of).  And then there was Hank's and Marie's house in that desert setting.  Not that I'd want to live in the desert, but I thought the scenery was beautiful.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Ohwell

[queenanne]

No, I rent, thanks; but the Whites are clearly not meant to be seen as rolling in it, that's the point of the entire series IMO. Skyler eBaying, don't use Credit Card XYZ, look at our 1970's wooden paneling we have never updated, but clearly YMMV, lol.

[Ohwell]

I agree the Whites are not meant to be seen as rolling in it, but the eBaying to make extra $$$, using certain credit cards and not others--sounds like what a lot of middle class folks do.  

 

Also, 1970's wooden paneling looks fine to some people.  At least they owned their home (well, until things went south). 

Edited April 11, 2015 by Ohwell

[Irlandesa]

No, I rent, thanks; but the Whites are clearly not meant to be seen as rolling in it, that's the point of the entire series IMO. Skyler eBaying, don't use Credit Card XYZ, look at our 1970's wooden paneling we have never updated, but clearly YMMV, lol.

Rolling in it?  No.  But they weren't lower class.  They had a house.  They had cars. They had health insurance through Walt's job and they could afford to have Skylar be a stay at home mom.  Walt did some extra work and Skylar used eBay to help make a little extra money but they would be solidly middle class.

What was depressing, and sadly accurate, is how an unexpected illness can devastate a family's finances even if they do have health insurance.

[editorgrrl]

Marco said Jimmy's mom was originally from Wisconsin.

When he learns that Slippin' Jimmy's a lawyer, Marco says, "You gotta be king of the desert, driving around town in a white Caddy, making bank." Didn't Saul drive a white Cadillac—like the one Jimmy walked past the first time we see the yellow Suzuki Esteem?

And Marco saw right through the tinfoil bastard: "All due respect, Chuck's a stuck-up douchebag. I hate to break it to you, but he doesn't even like you."

[ByTor]

He could have got there any number of ways. Taken the job and then got tempted.

THAT is exactly what I wanted to see.  I wish the episode would have ended with Jimmy walking in for the interview, and I wish next season's opening twist would be that he did accept the position with the firm.  I wanted to see the transition from Jimmy to Saul happen gradually over a period of time.  The way it was done felt not only forced but rushed.  Which makes me wonder, was BCS intended to be a series with very few seasons?  In any event, IMO this was a dissatisfying ending to an otherwise excellent 1st season.

[wrestlesflamingos]

I figured out my problem with the ending. Jimmy has spent the entire season talking. Over talking. Telling the stories with extra details or colorful little barbs. The dialogue was wrong. It was like Jimmy was reading Mike's lines. They needed 40-65 more seconds of exposition and it would have been fine.

[Umbelina]

I dunno.

 

I didn't like the episode much the first time, but I really liked it quite a bit by the next morning.  I don't really think he needed dialogue, because it was all right there, in his body language, his face, you could see him coming to that conclusion, especially with Mike.

 

I love that the show doesn't spoon feed it all to us.  Although, in this case what I think I saw, and what others think they saw probably proves your point.

 

To me, at least by the following morning, it was all about Jimmy finding out, for the first time ever really, who Jimmy is and what he wants.  He no longer has to please Marco, he could never possibly please Chuck, so shake off those shackles and find out what pleases HIM.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Umbelina

[shapeshifter]

I figured out my problem with the ending. Jimmy has spent the entire season talking. Over talking. Telling the stories with extra details or colorful little barbs. The dialogue was wrong. It was like Jimmy was reading Mike's lines. They needed 40-65 more seconds of exposition and it would have been fine.

I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for, but I like that instead we get:

...And Marco saw right through the tinfoil bastard: "All due respect, Chuck's a stuck-up douchebag. I hate to break it to you, but he doesn't even like you."

Hearing it from Marco gives it more weight than having it come from Jimmy.

[wrestlesflamingos]

He just needed to patter a little bit. Not a specific thing, just a little bit more. It was too fast, the scene ended too quickly.

[editorgrrl]

Marco saw right through the tinfoil bastard: "All due respect, Chuck's a stuck-up douchebag. I hate to break it to you, but he doesn't even like you."

Hearing it from Marco gives it more weight than having it come from Jimmy.

Jimmy knows that Chuck doesn't respect him, but he still loves the tinfoil bastard. When Marco asked why Jimmy was going back to Albuquerque, he said Chuck's there. When Kim told Jimmy about the offer from Davis & Main, he said Chuck wouldn't like it. And the first thing Jimmy does when he gets back is to check on Chuck.

Jimmy is not yet Saul. To quote a review posted in the media thread, he's "chaotic neutral." http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/04/13/my-idea-of-fun

[shapeshifter]

He just needed to patter a little bit. Not a specific thing, just a little bit more. It was too fast, the scene ended too quickly.

I guess they went with the ol' axiom of "always leave 'em wanting more," but I agree, a little of his patter to tide us over would've been nice.

[ToastnBacon]

I just missed its charms wholly the first time around; too bleak, too depressingly lower-class, RJ Mitte spent that entire scene in the store (and maybe even the first 4 episodes), just drifting around silently, I thought they were going to tell me he was mute and/or mentally r*******, which would have depressed me further about the portrait of Walt.  Not only did I hate Jesse until about the midpoint of second season (once he

fell into the chemical toilet

I actually felt quite good-humored about him), but I wished they had traded him for Krazy-8 whom I found more charming, so further doomed to disappointment, lol.

It took me a while to appreciate Jesse too. I wanted to punch him in the face, so many times the first season. I think it was those stupid skate-punk clothes he wore.

He grows on you though, and I think that is a very cool element of both BB and BCS.

These are all flawed characters, not a damn one of them is a clean, one dimensional character.

I guess that is why the over-the-top Jimmy worship, and fanatical Chuck hatred in these threads bugs me so much.

[DangerousMinds]

His answering machine message won me over!

[SlackerInc]

No, I rent, thanks; but the Whites are clearly not meant to be seen as rolling in it, that's the point of the entire series IMO.

 

Renters can be loaded too.

 

And I kinda think there is a "middle" ground between "lower class" and "rolling in it".  ;-)

[ketose]

Not to belabor the Breaking Bad thing, but the Whites were maintaining. They had a nice house and two cars, but they also had bills and a son who wanted a car. Walt was working as a teacher, but also working part time at the car wash, which was occasionally an embarrassing experience. Later on in the series, you see that Walt bought the house when he was more poised for success. The implication was that he had chances to do better and burned his bridges every time. At minimum, Walter should have been able to work at a college.

 

To some extent, that's where Saul was. I wonder what the sequence of events was. Did Jimmy quit first or Chuck had his breakdown first? Either way, Jimmy was trying to just get by financially and didn't have time to think about what his career would be like if he made it big. That might be what happened in the finale. For the first time in years, Jimmy had options and he chose not to take one of them.

[ShadowFacts]

 

For the first time in years, Jimmy had options and he chose not to take one of them.

 

Yes, he had options there in the parking lot and one of them just did not feel right.  Rather than go inside and go through the motions and then decline the offer (which would have been more considerate of Kim's efforts), he just decided to let the chips fall.  Driving away in the car looked like it felt liberating.

[shapeshifter]

...Walt was working as a teacher, but also working part time at the car wash, which was occasionally an embarrassing experience....The implication was that he had chances to do better and burned his bridges every time. At minimum, Walter should have been able to work at a college.

To some extent, that's where Saul was...

And what Jimmy does, especially at the end of this episode. I had forgotten about that similarity. I was thinking that Jimmy/Saul doesn't have the same ego as Walt that prevented him from taking a lucrative position with his former business partners--but that is sort of what Jimmy does here. It also kept Walt from taking Saul's best advice, and here we see Jimmy not listening to Kim. Edited April 12, 2015 by shapeshifter

[Dobian]

I thought it was a good ending to the first season.  Jimmy walking away from that job offer was him accepting who is really is and embracing it.  He is the future Saul Goodman, not some lawfirm lackey.  Same as Walter embracing who he really was at the end of Breaking Bad, when he told his wife with no apologies that he liked what he did, and he was good at it.

[ghoulina]

When he learns that Slippin' Jimmy's a lawyer, Marco says, "You gotta be king of the desert, driving around town in a white Caddy, making bank." Didn't Saul drive a white Cadillac—like the one Jimmy walked past the first time we see the yellow Suzuki Esteem?

 

Yea, I'm pretty sure he did. With the LWYRUP tags. 

 

And Marco saw right through the tinfoil bastard: "All due respect, Chuck's a stuck-up douchebag. I hate to break it to you, but he doesn't even like you."

 

That moment really broke my heart. It made me think that everyone knew Chuck didn't really care for Jimmy, except Jimmy. 

[editorgrrl]

That moment really broke my heart. It made me think that everyone knew Chuck didn't really care for Jimmy, except Jimmy.

Yep, and that realization probably got Jimmy thinking about how so many people see him as a crook: Betsy Kettleman, Nacho, Mike…

But that moment was bittersweet to me—Marco was a better brother to Jimmy in some ways than Chuck ever was. (Yes, Marco's a "bad guy" and encouraged Jimmy to do "bad" things—but he loved Jimmy.)

[ByTor]

I thought it was a good ending to the first season.  Jimmy walking away from that job offer was him accepting who is really is and embracing it.  He is the future Saul Goodman, not some lawfirm lackey.  Same as Walter embracing who he really was at the end of Breaking Bad, when he told his wife with no apologies that he liked what he did, and he was good at it.

But here is where my disappointment lies.  Certainly it would make no sense for Jimmy to embrace "Saul" at the end of the series as Walt did, but it happened to Jimmy too early.  No, he is no law firm lackey, and we know he won't end up being one, but I would have liked him to accept the position and realize then that it's not the life for him.

[SlackerInc]

The latest insider podcast has further gelled my issues with the Howard Hamlin twist.  (They are really undermining themselves with this look at sausagemaking, I have to say.)  Patrick Fabian was on again, and made some comments, and posed some questions, that Vince and Peter couldn't answer (they even "jokingly" griped "Caught!").

 

He wondered, if Chuck is so important to the firm that Howard had to let Chuck call the shots and make Howard repeatedly play the bad guy with Jimmy, then why hasn't Howard sent Chuck's secretary to work at his home?  Why hasn't he gotten the best doctors to try to treat Chuck?  And of course, the answer is that until the 7th episode, that is not how they were writing those two characters.

 

This also jogged my memory of a couple other elements that don't fit this retconned scenario.  (As I've said, I don't mind writers shifting their plans on the fly, but I don't like dubious retcons--once something is established as canon, I think you have to be bound by it.) 

 

The way Howard treated Jimmy when the latter showed up at the Kettlemans' house does not jibe with Howard actually liking and respecting Jimmy, and feeling guilty about what he has had to do to him. 

 

And Howard showing up at the hospital and loudly spouting off about how the firm's position was that this was a physical illness?  It made perfect sense in the narrative Jimmy laid out at the time: that Howard was afraid of Jimmy getting legal guardianship, whereas Howard was perfectly happy to have Chuck just stuck in a limbo where he is out of the loop but leaves his capital in the firm for Howard to control.  And I'm 100% sure this was intended by the writers at the time to be the truth.  But when you look back on it in light of later revelations, it doesn't fit.

Edited April 13, 2015 by SlackerInc

[ghoulina]

But here is where my disappointment lies.  Certainly it would make no sense for Jimmy to embrace "Saul" at the end of the series as Walt did, but it happened to Jimmy too early.  No, he is no law firm lackey, and we know he won't end up being one, but I would have liked him to accept the position and realize then that it's not the life for him.

 

Mileage will vary, but I think Walt embraced the Heisenberg persona much earlier than the end of the series. I guess it could be a bit of a progression, but I saw him turning down Gretchen and Elliot's money in season 1 to be a very pivotal moment. 

 

As for Jimmy/Saul, I don't think him not taking the meeting was about him already becoming Saul. I had a hard time too with the finale, initially. But after rewatching and pondering, I believe it was more about Jimmy just not knowing WHO he is. He WAS Slipping Jimmy, until his brother saved his ass and tried to put him on the straight and narrow. I think Jimmy knows he aint exactly "slippin" anymore, but I also think he realized that he spent 10 years trying to live up to someone else's expectations, and it did nothing for him. If he took that job at the HHM of Santa Fe, it would just be more years trying to please other people. 

 

I think the ending was more about him realizing he needs to stop trying to be what everyone else wants him to be - good or bad - and figure out who exactly he is and what he wants to do. I see Jimmy really loving and enjoying practicing law. But he wants to do it on his own terms. 

[LoneHaranguer]

 

He wondered, if Chuck is so important to the firm that Howard had to let Chuck call the shots and make Howard repeatedly play the bad guy with Jimmy, then why hasn't Howard sent Chuck's secretary to work at his home?

Or at least some boxes. On BB, Hank had some stuff sent over rather than sit around as an invalid, and I peg Chuck as being the same way. He was happy to dig into what Jimmy brought over.

[SlackerInc]

Mileage will vary, but I think Walt embraced the Heisenberg persona much earlier than the end of the series. I guess it could be a bit of a progression, but I saw him turning down Gretchen and Elliot's money in season 1 to be a very pivotal moment. 

 

That was about him being too proud to take their charity.  I would submit to you that there was a precise moment, a bit later, when he became Heisenberg: while standing in line at NotHomeDepot at the very end of S2E10, "Over".  At that point, he reversed course from any idea that he was just out to make enough money for his treatment and for his family, and became a power-craving wannabe crime lord.

[shapeshifter]

The latest insider podcast has further gelled my issues with the Howard Hamlin twist.  (They are really undermining themselves with this look at sausagemaking, I have to say.)  Patrick Fabian was on again, and made some comments, and posed some questions, that Vince and Peter couldn't answer (they even "jokingly" griped "Caught!").

 

He wondered, if Chuck is so important to the firm that Howard had to let Chuck call the shots and make Howard repeatedly play the bad guy with Jimmy, then why hasn't Howard sent Chuck's secretary to work at his home?  Why hasn't he gotten the best doctors to try to treat Chuck?...

Just fanwanking, but it could be because when Chuck's out of the way and incapacitated, Hamlin gets to run things. Chuck's importance may just be because if he takes his toys and goes home, Hamlin loses half the toys to play with. Does that make sense?

[Irlandesa]

The latest insider podcast has further gelled my issues with the Howard Hamlin twist.  (They are really undermining themselves with this look at sausagemaking, I have to say.)  Patrick Fabian was on again, and made some comments, and posed some questions, that Vince and Peter couldn't answer (they even "jokingly" griped "Caught!").

I think Patrick Fabian is smart and asks a lot of good questions but just because there are a lot of questions by the switch doesn't mean there aren't any simple answers. 

 

Why didn't he send a secretary over?  Perhaps Chuck wasn't ready to work immediately after his breakdown and they got into a rut habit of covering his clients and not giving him work.  Chuck seems to have a lot of power at HHM so if he wanted to work, he probably could have asked for it.  It wasn't until Jimmy kind of "slipped" work into his vicinity that he took up the law again.  Or maybe Howard needs Chuck's prestige in name only but prefers him to be as silent as possible except when it comes to Jimmy.

 

Why did he not like him at the Kettlemans?  We already know the Kettlemans were considered an important case.  He probably didn't trust Jimmy sniffing around them.

 

When asked whether or not he felt "vindicated" by the reveal, he talked a lot about how this perhaps changes how one looks at Howard because he isn't the big bad in the Jimmy/HHM situation so perhaps he's not as nasty as he was initially presented with the little ifnormation we had.  But then he throws out--"or he could be revealed to be the biggest douchebag yet" just not for the reasons viewers initially thought he was a douchebag. 

 

I don't think the reveal has contradicted any decision that came before it.  It just opened up the door for more layers to be developed as we learn some of these answers.

[ketose]

The latest insider podcast has further gelled my issues with the Howard Hamlin twist.  (They are really undermining themselves with this look at sausagemaking, I have to say.)  Patrick Fabian was on again, and made some comments, and posed some questions, that Vince and Peter couldn't answer (they even "jokingly" griped "Caught!").

 

He wondered, if Chuck is so important to the firm that Howard had to let Chuck call the shots and make Howard repeatedly play the bad guy with Jimmy, then why hasn't Howard sent Chuck's secretary to work at his home?  Why hasn't he gotten the best doctors to try to treat Chuck?  And of course, the answer is that until the 7th episode, that is not how they were writing those two characters.

 

This also jogged my memory of a couple other elements that don't fit this retconned scenario.  (As I've said, I don't mind writers shifting their plans on the fly, but I don't like dubious retcons--once something is established as canon, I think you have to be bound by it.) 

 

The way Howard treated Jimmy when the latter showed up at the Kettlemans' house does not jibe with Howard actually liking and respecting Jimmy, and feeling guilty about what he has had to do to him. 

 

And Howard showing up at the hospital and loudly spouting off about how the firm's position was that this was a physical illness?  It made perfect sense in the narrative Jimmy laid out at the time: that Howard was afraid of Jimmy getting legal guardianship, whereas Howard was perfectly happy to have Chuck just stuck in a limbo where he is out of the loop but leaves his capital in the firm for Howard to control.  And I'm 100% sure this was intended by the writers at the time to be the truth.  But when you look back on it in light of later revelations, it doesn't fit.

Despite the producers being caught off-guard, I don't see much that isn't easy to explain. Chuck has mentioned a few times that he was seeking a treatment and exiled himself as a way to save face. I am sure that Howard knew that Chuck's illness was in his head, but as a legal matter, acknowledging it was a mental illness could get Jimmy the guardianship he threatened. While Howard may like Jimmy's hustle, he loves the firm most of all. What Jimmy was doing with the Kettlemans and the billboard made HHM look bad. Frankly, Howard didn't seem angry as much as annoyed.