Going Clear: Scientology And The Prison Of Belief

[galax-arena]

I've been debating about posting this.  It's 5 Brainwashing Tricks That Work No Matter How Smart You Are.  It's not about Scientology, although they do mention it, but it does show how if done gradually, eventually the really crazy things don't seem so crazy.   I don't think anything is a big revelation, and it's stuff I already knew, however it does make the case for how smart, "normal" people could get sucked into something like Scientology or groupthink.

I've always hated the canard that only stupid people are susceptible to cults. Intelligence has nothing to do with it, it's all about emotional vulnerability. That's why cults do such big business recruiting on college campuses. Young adults, many of them away from home for the first time in their lives, are ripe for the picking.

 

I'm probably more familiar with cult tactics than the average person because it's a subject I've been interested in all my life, but I'm not arrogant enough to think that I'm not susceptible. Right now, I'm going through a period in my life where I feel a bit lonely and "over" everything, and there's just something seductive about the whole idea of this ready-made community/family, about a group that promises you all the answers.... even if rationally I know it's bullshit. That's the problem. Even smart and/or educated people aren't always rational, and it's a mistake to conflate the two.

[lucindabelle]

Yes... also cults make things EASY. They do things like pick you up to take you to "services." Etc. You can be pretty passive, at least at first.

[attica]

This is not a religion it's a cult.

 

It's a cult and a grift. It's Two Things at Once!

[psychoticstate]

I think Katie Holmes has a high school education, and got swept up in the romance and glamour, and was a working actress, not an internet addict, who probably never thought to do due diligence on Scientology. I think she was marrying that cute actor she'd had a crush on since she was a girl, and had enough of a passing acquaintance with seemingly normal, celebrity Scientologists, that she didn't worry, until it was too late.

 

 

Katie Holmes was accepted to Columbia University so clearly she's not a complete nitwit, she at least has book smarts.  If I was getting involved with a man who participated in a "religion" I knew nothing about but expected me to fully embrace, you can bet your ass that I would check it out.  And not just through him or the organization but as thorough a Google search as I could manage.  Her father is an attorney so if she didn't think to do due diligence, I'm sure he did. 

 

I think Katie didn't really care to know much about Scientology because she was only going to be a public Scientologist for as long as the arrangement with Cruise lasted.

 

That bit of gossip about Katie having a crush on Tom from a young age was apparently planted to support the TomKat Greatest Love Ever tale. Prior to the great fauxmance, she never said a word about Tom Cruise but she did talk about Tom Hanks.

[MostlyC]

I think Scientology is a Shake-down operation.  It doesn't deserve "religion" status any more than the Mafia does.

 

I truly hope this documentary has positive results.  And that Miscavage (or however you spell the name) gets tossed in prison for the rest of his life.

[Kromm]

I don't think scrb was saying Jackson was a Scientologist (although he DID give money to them at one point because Lisa Marie Presley, who IS one, pushed him into it).  It sounds like scrb was simply indicting our culture's whole tendency to celebrate people who show themselves to be bizarre nutcases eventually.

[psychoticstate]

I don't think scrb was saying Jackson was a Scientologist (although he DID give money to them at one point because Lisa Marie Presley, who IS one, pushed him into it).  It sounds like scrb was simply indicting our culture's whole tendency to celebrate people who show themselves to be bizarre nutcases eventually.

 

I know people who work in the biz or the general outskirts and I think Scientology targets that industry for money and also because of the neurosis and issues many of them have.  You wouldn't think it based on their chosen profession but some of them have horrendous self-esteem, painfully shy, always second guessing, etc. Having a program like Scientology that enhances your esteem and makes you feel more secure is going to be beneficial (generally) to your career. They also cater to the sometimes massive ego some of the celebrities have as well.  Win-win.

 

I thought it had been reported on the down low that Lisa Marie Presley was out.   I hope so.  Elvis was allegedly targeted by the CO$ and he made a comment along the lines of over his dead body would they get his money.  He'd be spinning in his grave if he knew they got their hands on his ex-wife and daughter.

[Scottish Girl]

What surprises me is why they chose Nicole Kidman and Katie Holmes for Cruise. I say this because most Catholics either stay Catholic or renounce religion altogether. They (I'm a former Catholic) aren't easily swayed by cults like Scientology.

They should've know that both women would leave so why go through all the effort for someone like Cruise?

This has always struck me too. I'm a former Catholic, and that's still hard for me to say. I DO call myself "culturally Catholic." For most people I know, it's almost like part of your DNA. And, by all accounts, both Katie and Nicole were good, practicing,cradle Catholics. Tom was a real dummy picking his wives. You're always sorta Catholic in my experience.

I also remember when Tom and Nicole divorced it was rumored that she was totally surprised by it and he did it at that time, because after 10 years she'd get more according to their prenup. After seeing this movie, who knows? Maybe COS put a bug in his ear?

I loved Ton Cruise. I loved John Travolta. But, the higher up the "bridge" they get, the more insane they behave. Now, they both make me sad.

[Kromm]

This has always struck me too. I'm a former Catholic, and that's still hard for me to say. I DO call myself "culturally Catholic." For most people I know, it's almost like part of your DNA. And, by all accounts, both Katie and Nicole were good, practicing,cradle Catholics. Tom was a real dummy picking his wives. 

Dumbest of all... Mimi Rogers.  Who served him up to the SciHeads in the first place.

[FormerMod-a1]

Thoughts on Going Clear from Mike Rowe, of all people.  I like him well enough but did not expect this for some reason.  He mostly talks about his friend Spanky Taylor, and of the travesty of the IRS letting Scientology gain "church" status, like in the snippet below.

 

...  The financial facts are beyond dispute - Scientology is a multi-billion dollar business that sells a tangible service called “auditing.” They also create "auditors," for a price. Prior to 1993, an auditing session was no different from a tax-standpoint than a session with a palm-reader, a fortune-teller, a hypnotist, or a Voodoo Priestess. It was a taxable event. That’s no longer the case. Today, The Church of Scientology generates billions of dollars in revenue, and pays no tax at all. Zero.

[lucindabelle]

Yes, exactly. Psychics and therapists all pay taxes.

[90PercentGravity]

Interesting. Mike Rowe has recently come across to me as an anti-tax libertarian who I would imagine would get a kick out of seeing them beat the system.

 

I don't understand how these tax exempt churches were able to throw so much money behind Prop 8. I thought they were not supposed to get involved with politics.

[maraleia]

When Katie and Tom first got together and it was being reported that he was introducing her to Scientology, he was making the same claim that she could still be Catholic.  It was only later that the reporting changed to reflect that while you could be both your religion and a Scientologist, Katie was now just practicing Scientology.

 

I remember those stupid commercials in the 70's for the book and thought it sounded interesting.  Luckily, I was way too young to call on my own and my parents told me that any religion promising you easy answers to life is lying.  I, too, have been interested that both Nicole and Katie were Catholic, and I always remember that Tom's divorce with Nicole and his ominous "She knows what she did" came on the heels of an interview in which she said she found herself drawn to a Catholic church after the "Eyes Wide Shut" director died and gave the quote, "Well I suppose once a Catholic, always a Catholic."  I wonder if Katie has gone back as well.

When I was in LA during the spring of 2001 (trying to get a media job there after working at CNN) I went to St. Monica Catholic Church in Santa Monica. I can clearly remember going to Easter mass and after mass ended asking why there was a motorcade parked out front. They told me it was Nicole's car and security detail that she hired so she could take the kids to mass (they went to the service after the one I attended). They also told me the paps were chasing after her that day but I'm thinking it was the CO$ people hounding her. So yes Nicole is a practicing Catholic and I think that Tom and David started cutting off her contact with her kids after she took her kids to Easter mass that year.

[Kromm]

Interesting. Mike Rowe has recently come across to me as an anti-tax libertarian who I would imagine would get a kick out of seeing them beat the system.

 

I don't understand how these tax exempt churches were able to throw so much money behind Prop 8. I thought they were not supposed to get involved with politics.

Yeah, but I got the vibe from that piece that his attitude was "why do crooks like them get no tax when a good American like me has to pay?"  So it's still an anti-tax attitude, but skewed to indict the people who don't deserve any kind of deal getting a better one than him.

[Morbs]

I bet besides the lawsuits against the IRS, that the Scientologists were also harassing them and threatening them with physical violence to get there way.

[Kromm]

I bet besides the lawsuits against the IRS, that the Scientologists were also harassing them and threatening them with physical violence to get there way.

No, I doubt it.

 

Not that they're above that, but like all bullies they have a honed sense of what they can get away with and with whom.  It may not have been explicitly against the law to harass IRS employees back then (although I think it may be now), but the SciHeads wouldn't give anyone such an easy handle to fight back with.  You fight a bureaucracy with bureaucratic moves--they knew that.  Lawsuits, formal letters, etc. filled that brief.  The physical threats were for people who couldn't retaliate, whereas the IRS could have.

[RedheadZombie]

There's a story out today that Cruise hasn't seen Suri in over a year.  That made me wonder about Connor and Isabella.  Poor Bella was frequently papped trailing behind Katie and Suri, and holding Katie's purse.  Connor and Isabella are adults now, but how sad if they've been forced to disconnect from Suri.  It's even sadder if they were as close to Katie as she claimed (versus simply rubbing NK's nose in it).  This would mean that CO$ has taken both of their mother figures away.  Somehow I always feel more for Bella.  Connor is showing signs of turning into a Hollywood kid famewhore, and seems to enjoy the publicity.  Bella lives a quiet life and stays out of the gossip mags.

[CherryMalotte]

Bella lives a quiet life and stays out of the gossip mags.

 

Poor kid is probably having to Sea Org herself out and clean toilets with a toothbrush.

[Kromm]

Celebrity house for sale: Tom Cruise's California compound

 

[Rick Kitchen]

No, I doubt it.

 

Not that they're above that, but like all bullies they have a honed sense of what they can get away with and with whom.  It may not have been explicitly against the law to harass IRS employees back then (although I think it may be now), but the SciHeads wouldn't give anyone such an easy handle to fight back with.  You fight a bureaucracy with bureaucratic moves--they knew that.  Lawsuits, formal letters, etc. filled that brief.  The physical threats were for people who couldn't retaliate, whereas the IRS could have.

 

Scientologists have in the past cut the rattles off of live rattlesnakes and left the snakes in the mail boxes of their"enemies".

[BatmanBeatles]

John Travolta defends Scientology:

 

http://www.people.com/article/john-travolta-defends-scientology-new-interview

 

He hasn't seen the documentary.

[Kromm]

John Travolta defends Scientology:

 

http://www.people.com/article/john-travolta-defends-scientology-new-interview

 

He hasn't seen the documentary.

I'd say "Revolta never knows when to keep his mouth shut", except I bet we all realize that he's probably been pressured into speaking now (thanks, Kelly!)

 

Note that it's the Tampa Bay Times. You know.  Because Scientology pretty owns all of Clearwater, right next door.

[Lawgiver]

I hate how willfully blind Travolta is being. "I haven't had any problems, so I'm not worried about any other potential issues within the church - not my problem!" is what he is essentially saying.

Also, I wonder if Miscavige's income can be investigated by the IRS, who are probably too scared to do it. He is a high school dropout! I was astounded by that info in Beyond Belief by Jenna M. Hill. My bet is he has everyone so hidden there's no proof he's been using "church" money for himself.

Also, what the hell is CoS doing with the billions they have? Just hoarding money for the sake of money? I don't get it.

[Kromm]

Also, what the hell is CoS doing with the billions they have? Just hoarding money for the sake of money? I don't get it.

The doc actually addresses that to a degree.  Real estate, around the globe.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Kromm

[BatmanBeatles]

 

I hate how willfully blind Travolta is being. "I haven't had any problems, so I'm not worried about any other potential issues within the church - not my problem!" is what he is essentially saying.

Of course he is treated well, he's a rich celebrity.

[Lawgiver]

Kromm, I understand the real estate purchases, but to what end? Money (and real estate) begets money, but there is nothing to it besides acquiring more money which is what Elron wanted, I guess.

[fastiller]

Kromm, I understand the real estate purchases, but to what end? Money (and real estate) begets money, but there is nothing to it besides acquiring more money which is what Elron wanted, I guess.

Well, in certain neighbourhoods* here in NYC, there are these so-called McMansions --: houses that are enlargements of old existing houses that after all the renovations take up most of the lot they're on -- that are built for the sole purpose of being where the homeowner puts his/her cash.  They can't show the funds in an account because the work they do wouldn't warrant such large account balances.  I think someone upthread said that Co$ resembles the Mafia (or I read it elsewhere).  Anyway, this is another commonality: hiding their true wealth

 

* anywhere that 'ethnic' mobs reside in large numbers.

[lucindabelle]

In fairness, here in NJ the enlargements are not necessarily a tax dodge. Real estate is very expensive and it's cheaper to add on to the house you have than buy a bigger one. In the town where I grew up, a section primarily of 3 bedroom houses was once a starter section before people's homes expanded and they moved into the wealthier area of town. More and more you see people putting on additional bedrooms... a 100-200k expandsion is still cheaper than a 500-million dollar increase to buy a bigger house with more property.

[fastiller]

What you say is totally true lucindabelle (btw: your avatar shot is really cute).  However, in the situations I'm referring to, this is 100% a way of hiding true wealth.  It's similar to some of the bank accounts I used to open when I was a Customer Service Rep; all the 'persons of interest' to Police/Feds were Powers of Attorney on accounts in the names of their 'less tainted' relations. 

[Queena]

I really wish they had touched on Scientology and the new outreach to the Black community, more, specifically, the Nation of Islam. The NOI teach Dinetecs, they also do auditing. They're holding joint convention at the Florida headquarters. It's not true that Sci. doesn't so outreach in poor communities, as of the past few years, they have. Here and abroad. What's most disturbing is the relationship with the NOI, because they've really enmeshed themselves. The NOI had the first Auditors graduation in 2013. The NOI has it's own private school system, and you can guess which system they're teaching. Scientology is very far from having its tax exemption revoked, instead, it's going to use the Black church to legitimized itself. If you do a quick Google search, you will find a few links, but look at the images, they tell the full story. They've been very good about keeping this under wraps, so much so, that no one mentioned it in this thread. There are people who keep watch over both groups that are very concerned.

http://tonyortega.org/?s=islam&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&submit=Search

Edited April 8, 2015 by Queena

[KittenPokerCheater]

Up in the less nice part of East Harlem there is a scientology shake-down center (I refuse to call it a church) - it was a small building but looked kind of las vegasy in comparison to the other buildings in the neighborhood. I feel bad that these charlatans were targeting people who were economically struggling far more than say, Tom Cruise.

 

Every time I see it, it makes me angry and sad.

[Kromm]

Farrakook and Missedcabbage does seem like a weird alliance of evil, doesn't it?

 

On the face of things, it doesn't sound like any kind of equal partnership, but maybe NOI gets a cut of the income from auditing and course materials sold in the black community.  There's probably a cap stopping them before OTIII or some altered version of it that plays into their theology other than going into the Xenu story (not that I'm sure that's even PART of OTIII anymore, since it got exposed publicly).  

[dbklmt]

Juliette Lewis' father, actor Geoffrey Lewis, a long time Scientologist has died.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/video/geoffrey-lewis-actor-in-clint-eastwood-movies-dies-at-79/ar-AAazowi?ocid=DELLDHP

http://tonyortega.org/2015/04/08/geoffrey-lewis-1935-2015-a-consummate-character-actor-and-an-ot5-scientologist/#more-21614

(Travolta speaks out at last sort of)

Edited April 8, 2015 by dbklmt

[questionfear]

I was thinking about John Travolta and why he doesn't leave Scientology. I wonder if when he joined Scientology they hammered into him that being gay was a death sentence (remember, this was the early 80s and AIDS was a growing concern). Even if Travolta intellectually knows now that it's not the case, having that sort of connection drilled into him alongside the long-standing anti-gay scieno policies have probably left him with a ton of self loathing.

 

Heck, you could even see a scenario where men he knew in the 80s died of AIDS and he feels guilty/confused/protected by Scientology. 

[merylinkid]

Where does Scientology put its money?   Real estate, art, etc.   Just like the Catholic Church.   I kid you now, I read a papal encyclical once that swore that the Catholic Church was holding all that precious artwork, land, etc. in trust for the poor.    Scientology probably says the same thing.    YOu have money just ot have it.   Its a way of keeping score.   

[Queena]

Farrakook and Missedcabbage does seem like a weird alliance of evil, doesn't it?

On the face of things, it doesn't sound like any kind of equal partnership, but maybe NOI gets a cut of the income from auditing and course materials sold in the black community. There's probably a cap stopping them before OTIII or some altered version of it that plays into their theology other than going into the Xenu story (not that I'm sure that's even PART of OTIII anymore, since it got exposed publicly).

Actually, they kind of go hand in hand. The NOI believes in the Mothership, and that they're deceased leader is in the Mothership. Not that different. The NOI received $1 million from Scientology, I'm not sure if that's annual or what. I do know that they have annual meetings in Florida, and some of the higher ups in the NOI have met with Miscagive. This marriage is scary, because it makes Scientology more legitimate when people were getting traction. It helped the NOI because they were a dying organization, the cash really helped FaraConn. The school was broke, and failing badly. I'll tell you this much, he didn't send HIS kids, or grandkids to Muhammed University high school. He knew that the education wasn't accredited. The one to watch is Ismael, he's the next in line, and he's very close to Scientology.

I wonder if FarraCon credits Scientology with "curing" his cancer?

I think that the NOI missed this little gem from LRon Hubbard on Islam, not that the NOI is real Islam.

“It's an enormous stone hanging suspended in the middle of a room. This is an incident called the Emanator, by the way. And this thing is, by the way, the source of the Muhammadan Lodestone that they have hanging down there, that, uh, when, uh, Muhammad decided to be a good, uh, small-town booster, in uh, Kansas, Middle East... or something of the sort. By the way, the only reason he mocked that thing up is because trade wasn’t good in his home town. That’s right. You read the life of Muhammad.”

[Kromm]

This marriage is scary, because it makes Scientology more legitimate when people were getting traction. It helped the NOI because they were a dying organization, the cash really helped FaraConn. 

I take it you mean LEGAL legitimacy more than image.  Because NOI isn't good for anyone's image.

 

Although, again as I said upthread I don't think the Scientologists' tax exempt status is actually in any danger, big well played documentary or no.  There's very little real pressure on the IRS to do something, and absolutely no tendency of them doing similar in recent years to any other group.

[psychoticstate]

I was thinking about John Travolta and why he doesn't leave Scientology. I wonder if when he joined Scientology they hammered into him that being gay was a death sentence (remember, this was the early 80s and AIDS was a growing concern). Even if Travolta intellectually knows now that it's not the case, having that sort of connection drilled into him alongside the long-standing anti-gay scieno policies have probably left him with a ton of self loathing.

 

Heck, you could even see a scenario where men he knew in the 80s died of AIDS and he feels guilty/confused/protected by Scientology. 

 

I think Travolta is still in - - although I think barely and on the outskirts - - because his family is still in.  If he was to blow, with his family staying in, he would lose contact with them.

 

I also think that, as you pointed out, after years of having certain opinions reiterated over and over, he's probably worried that if his secrets do come out, they will affect his career.  Gay or not, when he began his career, it was not acceptable to be gay and especially not if you were a leading man.  Even today, this would be an issue for some.

 

His family would be affected as well.  His daughter is a teen and his youngest child is only 4 or 5, I think.  I'm not certain what his exact relationship is with his wife but by all accounts, they seem to be good friends with one another and they have been married for many years so their marriage clearly works for them.

 

I wouldn't put it past the CO$ to threaten to harm Kelly in some way as well (not saying physically necessarily but they could certainly share information that is private.)

 

Sad to say but he has more to lose than Cruise in that regard.

[Kromm]

I think Travolta is still in - - although I think barely and on the outskirts - - because his family is still in.  If he was to blow, with his family staying in, he would lose contact with them.

 

I also think that, as you pointed out, after years of having certain opinions reiterated over and over, he's probably worried that if his secrets do come out, they will affect his career.  Gay or not, when he began his career, it was not acceptable to be gay and especially not if you were a leading man.  Even today, this would be an issue for some.

 

His family would be affected as well.  His daughter is a teen and his youngest child is only 4 or 5, I think.  I'm not certain what his exact relationship is with his wife but by all accounts, they seem to be good friends with one another and they have been married for many years so their marriage clearly works for them.

 

I wouldn't put it past the CO$ to threaten to harm Kelly in some way as well (not saying physically necessarily but they could certainly share information that is private.)

 

Sad to say but he has more to lose than Cruise in that regard.

1.) Kelly is their full collaborator, I think.  She's the lever used against him not in the sense of threatening her, but using the threat of a custody battle THROUGH her.

 

2.) Beyond not even blowing, they've got enough of a handle on him to make him speak out with dumb delusional statements like the one he made just a few days ago.

[HalcyonDays]

Right now, I'm going through a period in my life where I feel a bit lonely and "over" everything, and there's just something seductive about the whole idea of this ready-made community/family, about a group that promises you all the answers.... even if rationally I know it's bullshit. That's the problem. Even smart and/or educated people aren't always rational, and it's a mistake to conflate the two.

 

I'm at the same point in my life as you are, galax-arena. However, I would guess that you don't have the additional cynicism and expectation that humanity are selfish bastards that I do.

 

To extend this to scientology and religion in general - if a religion (cult or no cult) asks you for money, then forget it. If you take my money and live in palatial palaces and drive cadillacs, while I struggle to survive, you have nothing to offer me. You message falls on deaf ears. If the only answers I can get require me to give you tens of thousands of dollars, then your message is BS. The only message I recieve is "I want to get rich off of you."

 

That's what blows me away about Scientology. The message that you cannot be "clear" or get rids of your thetans or whatever it is, without shelling out tons of cash. So it becomes (in my cynical view) a 'religion' for the rich. Only the rich and the rich celebrity can attain the highest levels in the cult, and that to me is a BIG red flag. The fact that they call those offices "celebrity" centres really stands out. So what, the average Joe can't go there, just the HW set??

 

If the message comes with a price tag and can only be delivered once you pay, then there is no worthy message at all and I can guarentee that you won't have the answers for me to improve my life. I think that's why some people wonder why "rational" people get sucked in. Logically it makes no sense, but there are those that even the glimmer of hope can suck someone in.

 

On that note, not sure if this has been posted here, but I used to read through a message board a few years ago. It's a message board for ex-Scientologists and they share their stories about leaving, and also discuss a lot of insider information. They hate Miscavige, know L Ron was crazy and it's a really eye opening site. Some of the stories are insane.

[RedheadZombie]

http://tonyortega.org/2015/04/08/geoffrey-lewis-1935-2015-a-consummate-character-actor-and-an-ot5-scientologist/#more-21614

(Travolta speaks out at last sort of)

 

I previously posted that I found Mike Rinder (in the documentary) bitter and angry, but not really contrite regarding the damage he was responsible for.  After watching some interviews between Rinder and Ortega posted on The Underground Bunker, I'm adjusting my opinion a little.  With Ortega, I find Rinder much more likable, very honest about his involvement, and willing to laugh at the absurdity of it all.

[Queena]

I take it you mean LEGAL legitimacy more than image. Because NOI isn't good for anyone's image.

Although, again as I said upthread I don't think the Scientologists' tax exempt status is actually in any danger, big well played documentary or no. There's very little real pressure on the IRS to do something, and absolutely no tendency of them doing similar in recent years to any other group.

Yes. I guess that would also be correct. For years, the public opinion has really swayed towards Sci. Not just in America. Teaming up with a so called "real" religion or one of the religions that's well established, and outrraching in poorer communities makes them look a lot better than they did in the past. If you don't know their history. Some of us in the Black community find Scientology's presence very disturbing. I'm not going to get into to the racism, which wasn't touched.

So much racism with LRon Hubbard, and Missedcabbage (I like that Kromm), and now they want to mess up the charter schools and churches in the Black community. As if the Creflo Dollar's of our community weren't doing enough harm.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Queena

[MichaelaRae]

Also, Tom (and other COS actors) seemed so normal until the couch jumping.

 

Yeah, he was never my cup of tea per se, but he was just another big name movie actor. I knew, nor cared, nothing about him until his PR person quit and he went full on Scientology Spokesperson. By then, I was already weirdly fascinated by this cult because, and I still remember, there was some news story - 20/20 or 60 Minutes or something - like 10 years ago, maybe more, on Scientology and some issues or claim someone was making.

 

I'd never really heard much about it, didn't care one way or another. And they interviewed Kirstie Alley and John Travolta to get their take on whatever . And during the requisite intros/narration at the start of their interview, I'm thinking "Oh, hey, I like those celebrities. Awww, aren't they still so cute?" and the minute, the very minute, they started talking about Scientology, I was like "HOLY SHIT, THE CRAZY EYES." Seriously, something so bizarre happened to their eyes, their entire faces, the minute they started the Scientology word salad, that it legitimately creeped me out. I felt myself recoiling from the television. I have never been able to look at them the same way and have tried to gobble up anything I can read or watch from escapees ever since.

[hendersonrocks]

As someone less versed in Scientology--outside of the knee-jerk, that ish is crazy, impulse--I found this doc fascinating. Deeply disturbing, of course, but fascinating.

 

I wish they went a bit deeper into HOW the people they featured (pretty high-ranking Sea Org-ers, right?) ultimately left. It felt like we really only heard about the dramatic escape of Spanky...how does it work for others? And what is the experience of the "church" like for people who aren't in Sea-Org? And yeah, all the stuff about Shelly. There's so much more I want to know, now that I've seen it.

 

Finally, I just came across this story from yesterday's LA Times. Count me as unsurprised Miscavige would have his own father trailed and instruct the goons to let him die when it looked like he was having a heart attack. 

[Kromm]

Also, Tom (and other COS actors) seemed so normal until the couch jumping. Yes, his reputation took a dive after dumping Nicole, but he wasn't fully whacked out yet. Of course there were whispers about the COS, but it wasn't full blown like nowadays.

 

I liked Kirstie Alley in Cheers. I liked Leah Remini. And who didn't like John Travolta, especially after his Pulp Fiction comeback? They seemed like you and me. 

I don't think the couch jumping was the true moment of divergence when these people went weird, I think it's just what put it so clearly and undeniably into the public notice (because it made the main news-cycles/outlets rather than just appearing in the cracks around their P.R. orchestrated images).

 

Leah Remini, for years, for example, had been a total attack dog (on radio programs mostly) against anyone who said anything even slightly against Scientology.  If she acts now like she was never a true believer, that's clearly not the case because the stuff that often came out of her mouth on the subject sounded nutty and unstable.

 

Travolta seemed like a weirdo LONG before the Cruise couch jumping.  He was overwhelmingly liked for Pulp Fiction, it's true, and probably all the way through Face/Off, but the weirdness started to pile up.  Note he made Battlefield Earth in 2000.  You started seeing bullshit with him dressing up in Airline Captain's uniforms to fly his personal Boeing 707 (shades of Elron dressing up as a Ship Captain/Fake Commodore for his Boat).  The rumors about his marriage being a sham (implying his kids are inseminated) existed since almost the day he was married, back in the early 90s.  There was lots of stuff out there.

 

Alley long seemed like a weirdo too, albeit one who's weirdness didn't necessarily always seem to hinge on Scientology.

 

Lisa Marie Presley certainly seemed like a weirdo for years before Cruise's couchgate (including testifying in front of Congress as a Scientology mouthpiece).  

[revbfc]

Over a decade ago I briefly dated a woman who claimed she had recently escaped from Scientology. She had grown up in the church, was a SeaOrg member and simply walked away one day. Honestly, I didn't ask too many questions, but I do know that our walks around SF became rather meandering because of the large COS presence on the street. Lots of venting on her part about how she was afraid of what would happen if she was found.

Edited April 9, 2015 by revbfc

[HalcyonDays]

Over a decade ago I briefly dated a woman who claimed she had recently escaped from Scientology. She had grown up in the church, was a SeaOrg member and simply walked away one day. Honestly, I didn't ask too many questions, but I do know that our walks around SF became rather meandering because of the large COS presence on the street. Lots of venting on her part about how she was afraid of what would happen if she was found.

 

That's really sad for her, revbfc. Truly. I mean, some poor people have to contend with the horror of one stalker, an ex or ex-spouse. Imagine multiple minions of the church following you everywhere.

 

What I want to know is who in the US government is being bribed by Scientologist. Because this "church" gets gov't tax breaks and is allowed to continue this type of completely illegal behaviour. Why hasn't the FBI stepped in or whatever. Same with the disappearances of certain people. So who do the Scientologists have wrapped around their culty finger?

[Kromm]

What I want to know is who in the US government is being bribed by Scientologist. Because this "church" gets gov't tax breaks and is allowed to continue this type of completely illegal behaviour. Why hasn't the FBI stepped in or whatever. Same with the disappearances of certain people. So who do the Scientologists have wrapped around their culty finger?

There's no need for ongoing bribes for them to get "tax breaks".  They get what every other 501©3 gets.  The problem is that they never should have been declared 501©3 in the first place.  But maintaining that is just momentum.  The IRS doesn't really undo that status once it's granted, other than for easy targets who flaunt being political flacks.

 

The FBI has in fact investigated the CoS many times.  But unfortunately it's tough to get warrants to gather evidence on ANY rich person or organization in America, so Miscaviage has a lot of protection that way that's not dependent on specific bribes, but again just based on organizational momentum.  Does he have more specific protectors or champions in power?  It's hard to say.  The functionaries in the government have changed many times even since his misdeeds have come into the public light.  It's far easier to believe that there simply isn't anyone in the criminal justice system brave enough to take on such a rich organization--who can tie them up in court for DECADES on just about everything.

 

Oddly enough, it's gone the other way--the Scientologists have plotted against the government.  Look up "Operation Snow White". It's long in the past though, so Miscaviage doesn't have to really do anything other than act like it preceded his tenure and had nothing to do with him.  Mary Sue Hubbard became the "fall guy" for that one (how Elron was only a "unindicted co-conspirator" has always been a mystery though--but it IS the triggering incident that caused him to go into hiding).  The way the CoS dealt with it long term though was to declare those people (Mary Sue Hubbard and the ten others that went to prison with her) as "Supressive Persons".  In other words, the CoS backstabbed their own people.

[Jamoche]

Looks like the pushback has begun - twice during People's Court I saw the same hagiographic ad for L Ron Hubbard, with all the debunked stuff about his life history: youngest Eagle Scout (no), military hero who commanded a fleet in combat (hell to the no; the one time he fired his guns, he hit Mexico and pissed them off royally), popular pulp fiction writer (got to give him that one), etc etc.

 

Now, the first time I heard all that stuff, the Internet was a baby and the truth could only be found on Usenet. These days, even Cracked has debunked him.

[Kromm]

Looks like the pushback has begun - twice during People's Court I saw the same hagiographic ad for L Ron Hubbard, with all the debunked stuff about his life history: youngest Eagle Scout (no), military hero who commanded a fleet in combat (hell to the no; the one time he fired his guns, he hit Mexico and pissed them off royally), popular pulp fiction writer (got to give him that one), etc etc.

 

Now, the first time I heard all that stuff, the Internet was a baby and the truth could only be found on Usenet. These days, even Cracked has debunked him.

I hope someone vid captures that ad and puts it online so we can link or embed it--although the CoS might have it taken down, it would be good to see even temporarily.  Not because we want to appreciate it, of course, but because it's got to be comedy gold them making such an ad and thinking anyone could do anything other than laugh at it at this point.

Although they've never challenged copies of this 2014 Superbowl ad being up on YouTube (no mentions of Elron, but lots of shots of e-Meters).  I guess because they think it actually convinces people rather than makes them roll their eyes. 

 

So what's the instant opinion poll here?  Does that video make you think Scientology is saner or crazier?