S03.E06: Born Again

[AlliMo]

It's really weird to me that with all the violence in this show, showing Judith HAVING AN EAR CUT OFF is "glorifying adultery."

[magdalene]

I think what may be meant by "glorifying adultery" is that the child of this adulterous union becomes a famous and important king.

 

Personally I am more disturbed by the notion that the "cheater" Judith deserved to be mutilated as punishment for it. 

[Expat]

I think what may be meant by "glorifying adultery" is that the child of this adulterous union becomes a famous and important king.

 

Personally I am more disturbed by the notion that the "cheater" Judith deserved to be mutilated as punishment for it. 

 

That's exactly what I meant.

 

And yes, I do think the whole cutting off the facial extremities was unduly harsh, but I still think Judith deserved to pay in some way for what she did. Hey, we've all got something that really bothers us. There's a lot of people who still can't get over Rollo and the slave girl. With me, cheating really gets to me. Probably because I've seen so many family members have to deal with cheating spouses/partners.

Adultery was tantamount to treason back then. I would've preferred a different sort of punishment, but I get the feeling that Hirst wanted to show off how barbaric the Christian church could be. I think he went a little far though. It almost seems like the guy has it out for Christianity. And no, I'm not just being a whiny Christian. I consider myself Agnostic if anything.

 

Anyway, I don't think I've made myself popular here, so I think I'll just take a hiatus from posting.

 

Farewell. :)

Edited March 27, 2015 by Gumdrops

[Ravenya003]

Posting this before reading the entire thread...

 

Geez, I take back my previous opinion on the actress playing Judith. Girl gave it her all in this episode. That whole sequence just made me feel sick to my stomach, so shout-out to the bloke in the crowd who yelled "have mercy!" Not sure if he was in-character or just an appalled extra who didn't know what the day's work would entail, but it was a tiny sliver of reprieve in what was otherwise a pretty gruelling sequence. 

 

Interesting stuff all around though, especially in regards to everyone's visions. That both Athelstan and Flocki had some sort of religious experience is clear, though it's open for interpretation just what was happening with each of them. Athelstan is moved to embrace Christian faith once and for all, while Flocki gets instructions from his gods to kill a man. What's interesting is all the contrasts between the two faiths and how they approach different controversies.

 

The one that struck me the most: Ragnar confronts his wife with her infidelity but doesn't raise a hand against her; meanwhile the Christians truss up a terrified girl and prepare to cut her ears/nose off. Still, I the writers are acutely aware how to balance out the two faiths - I like that Judith got to say that no way Jesus Christ would endorse this kind of shit (paraphrasing), whilst Flocki ends up grabbing his wife by the throat when she questions him. 

 

Not sure where things are going to go from here (apart from Paris, obviously). Ragnar is swiftly losing his allies on the brink of the most important raid of his life.

 

But man, that visual of Flocki arriving at Kattegut, the one that panned upwards to capture the hawk in flight before gliding back down to Flocki was perhaps the stunning image they've captured on this show. That goes ditto for Flocki appearing behind Rollo, Rollo sensing him but turning to see a dog, and the camera moving back to find Flocki slipping by unnoticed. They really captured the "Loki" in "Flocki" with these scenes.

[brisbydog]

Did Aslaug give birth to Odin's baby?

[raven]

 

That goes ditto for Flocki appearing behind Rollo, Rollo sensing him but turning to see a dog, and the camera moving back to find Flocki slipping by unnoticed. They really captured the "Loki" in "Flocki" with these scenes.

Heh, I was going to post something very similar.  The show has always been stunning visually, but the Floki arrival then stalking through the crowd scenes were exceptional I thought, the atmosphere with the chants, and Skarsgard's own deliberate movements set a creepy yet anticipatory tone.  Then you have Athelstan at his most vulnerable, unguarded, almost naked (nearly a Christ pose but he did that earlier), beatific expression, ready to meet his maker contrasted to Floki's furious obsession.  In the Vikings world, the gods are at odds with each other and it shows.

 

Great work from Fimmel in this episode; he's as affecting in his non-speaking roles as when he speaks; he was crushed yet angry when learning what happened in Wessex (his saying it was his fault; as king, he truly believes that); still quietly very, very angry at Aslaug because the children were in danger and I pretty much agree with everyone else on how affecting the burial scene was.  I loved how he said Athelstan was brave because he questioned things and he's right; blind acceptance can be pretty dangerous.  That's Ragnar all the way back to S1 when he wanted to explore, go farther; he didn't accept the staus quo.  He could have lived like a farmer and maybe expanding farming and simple raiding are why he started on this path, but he's king now and that's where his priorities are.  Except for eventually avenging his BFF Athelstan.

 

I also like when we see Ragnar just watching, as he was during the food/celebration scenes.  Well, and smirking of course.

 

So Ragnar will have no one to have good conversations with; Athelstan was not truly one of his subjects and he could explore thoughts and concepts with him that he couldn't with anyone else.  Ragnar was selfish; he's not stupid and must have known Athelstan was in danger when the bracelet was gone but he wanted to keep his friend close. 

 

Interesting choice with the Athelstan's journal after this episode reminding us that Athelstan's introduction to Ragnar and company was watching them murder his fellow monks and steal everything they could get their hands on.

 

Wow, did not even mention Judith.  Did not think they would actually cut off an ear.  Definitely a set up by Ecbert to proclaim a holy child but I can't figure out why.

Edited March 28, 2015 by raven

[ihartcoffee]

Why do they have to lick the seers hand? It always grosses me out.

[RiddleyWalker]

I think what may be meant by "glorifying adultery" is that the child of this adulterous union becomes a famous and important king.

 

Personally I am more disturbed by the notion that the "cheater" Judith deserved to be mutilated as punishment for it. 

Totally agree. This may be one instance, (though certainly rare), where the man involved in the adultery would have experienced an even grimmer fate, if caught, but your point still stands.

 

I can see why Hirst is going in this direction with Judith's baby and I don't think in the long run it will be a big problem. I do wonder why Ecgbert was so complicit in the adultery. Does he despise his son? Does he hope to have a grandson with Athelstan's intellect and art? Questions, questions….

[magdalene]

 

I can see why Hirst is going in this direction with Judith's baby and I don't think in the long run it will be a big problem. I do wonder why Ecgbert was so complicit in the adultery. Does he despise his son? Does he hope to have a grandson with Athelstan's intellect and art? Questions, questions….

Ecbert is such a smart and savvy man and clearly he saw something special in Athelstan. Meanwhile his own son is such a dull-witted and brutal man, clearly not up to Ecberts vision and intellect. So, maybe yes he despises his own son and wants to have an heir that came from Athelstan.

[attica]

Adultery was tantamount to treason back then

 

Only among royals, and even then only when it was politically advantageous for it to be so. Lots of tacitly sanctioned extramarital sexytimes were had by many, and forever. A peasant's discovered adultery wouldn't need such spectacle: just confession and penance. (Or, often as not, just be killed by the wronged spouse.) 

 

The scene where Ragnar is kacked out on his sweet Viking couch, buried in boys, was adorbs. He only lacked for a flatscreen!

 

"Athelstan, for a tiny man, you are very heavy." Hee.

[bandella]

Interesting stuff all around though, especially in regards to everyone's visions. That both Athelstan and Flocki had some sort of religious experience is clear, though it's open for interpretation just what was happening with each of them. Athelstan is moved to embrace Christian faith once and for all, while Flocki gets instructions from his gods to kill a man. What's interesting is all the contrasts between the two faiths and how they approach different controversies.

 

The one that struck me the most: Ragnar confronts his wife with her infidelity but doesn't raise a hand against her; meanwhile the Christians truss up a terrified girl and prepare to cut her ears/nose off. Still, I the writers are acutely aware how to balance out the two faiths - I like that Judith got to say that no way Jesus Christ would endorse this kind of shit (paraphrasing), whilst Flocki ends up grabbing his wife by the throat when she questions him. 

I love everyone in this bar. Drinks for everyone!

 

Seriously, though. This. THIS. Somehow, I didn't even twig to the Judith/Aslaug comparisons, but you're absolutely right. I do like that this show doesn't shy away from making anyone look bad, nor does it make any pretenses about clear-cut heroes and villains. That's the thing about people: for the most part, we're all a little good and a little bad. Some of us lean more one way or the other, but no one is 100% evil or 100% saintly, and I think this show does a really good job at portraying that. There were barbaric Englishmen and women and kind, loving Norsemen and women. There were kind, pious Christians and those who took the worst parts of their holy book way too literally. There were Norse people who just wanted to hang out on their farm and feed their families and who really weren't interested in sailing off to parts unknown to ransack other places. Then there were others who lived for a brutal fight and thought racking up kills would make Odin and/or the Valkyries take notice. 

 

Especially now that Athelstan is gone, I'd find it really difficult to lose Ragnar as well, as he's pretty much the only remaining character who straddles both worlds and seems genuinely interested in both of them. 

 

On a mostly unrelated note, I'm echoing what someone else said up-thread: would Judith really have been publicly tortured like that? I know there have been monarchs who love making a huge spectacle out of everything (someone also mentioned Anne Boleyn, for example), but it seems far more likely that a prince's wife, especially the daughter of a nearby king and whose marriage to said prince was part of a peace treaty, would be dealt with quietly, along with the illegitimate child. 

 

Anyone else wanna take bets on how long before Sulky Chris Pratt turns on daddy dearest?

[DHDancer]

"Anyone else wanna take bets on how long before Sulky Chris Pratt turns on daddy dearest?"   Yeah, the acorn doesn't fall far from the tree, and he must some "smarts" .... or maybe not ... do we even know if they are true father and son?

[benteen]

I think the show would take a huge hit if Ragnar died. Fimmel is just magnetic on-screen, it's like you can't take your eyes off of him. Ragnar is so many good and bad character qualities rolled into one, I'm not sure how you could replace that.

 

Totally agree.  Losing Ragnar would be an absolute deathblow to this series.  As good as the cast is, the writing and the production values, you literally cannot replace Travis Fimmel.  His screen presence is off-the-charts and has the potential to become a major star.  Losing Lagertha would be a major blow too...their isn't one other female character on this show even remotely close to replacing her.  Katheryn Winnick is another one I think could be a major star...could you imagine her in one of the big franchise movies like Fast and the Furious or Bond?

 

When that nurse told Aethelwulf that he had another strong son, his response should have been "Hodor!"

 

I was thinking that he was doing a great impersonation of a zombie but then I realized he looks EXACTLY like Hodor from Game of Thrones.

[slf]

Anne Boleyn hadn't committed adultery, that was a trumped up charge to clear the way for Henry to remarry. He was obsessed with having sons and didn't want to go through another divorce.

 

Adultery among the nobility and royalty wasn't uncommon. Killing someone for it was. That was more likely to happen among the lower classes, but adultery charges were more often a smokescreen like with Boleyn. The highborn had their own non-violent way of handling it, when it needed to be handled. Generally, so long as you weren't flaunting the affair in public and, if you were a woman, waited until you'd had a son or two with your husband you were fine. Plenty of noblemen didn't care what their wives did so long as it didn't cause a scandal or shame the family.

 

Lagertha's scenes were the only things palatable. I'll stick with the show as long as she's around, but if she keeps being marginalized, I'm gonna keep losing more and more interest.

 

Agreed. Lagertha is my favorite character and it does kind of annoy me that they chose to make Ragnar a King but only made her an Earl (and I really didn't like the way that happened). I know they aren't abiding by history and a lot of things attributed to them likely didn't happen anyway but I was so here for Lagertha saving Ragnar in battle and going home to kill her husband and rule as Queen by herself. I'd like to see that but I don't have much hope at this point.

Edited March 28, 2015 by slf

[LittleIggy]

Why do they have to lick the seers hand? It always grosses me out.

I read that it was something they made up to be weird. And, yeah, it makes me gag, too!

[Lillybee]

I may be at a table for one, but I loved Bjorn naming his daughter Siggy. His reason for it made sense because she did save the sons of Ragnar, namely his brothers.

 

I wonder what Ragnar means to do when he shaved off his reverse tonsure and started wearing the cross.

 

Fimmel really deserves at least an Emmy nom if not the award itself. He can move me to tears without saying a word.

 

One question, why do Fimmel and almost all the men on this show speak in a tone that is only a few decibels above a whisper.

[slf]

Did Aslaug give birth to Odin's baby?

I was wondering about that. I thought it was implied in the last episode that she was pregnant (I thought Floki said something about it). But she didn't have a new baby that I saw and she wasn't pregnant. 

[jnymph]

RIP Athelstan :( I will miss him very much as he was my favorite character. What sucks is in this episode he was getting interesting again & then BAM! Floki bumps him off. What's confusing to me isn't Ragnar going to be pissed at Floki for 86ing his BFF? Maybe we'll see some Ragnar wrath towards Floki next week. I love the previous posters idea of Athelstan returning as a spiritual guide for Ragnar. That would make me ecstatic because without Athelstan I fear this show won't be the same for me.

The scene with Floki arriving in Kattegut to kill Athelstan was breathtaking/tense .. Beautifully done!

As was the scene with Judith at the stake. I thought the actress nailed it. She had me in tears.

I thought she was a goner but once again Ecbert steps in with his theatrics.

Helga! You need to go all shield maiden on that asshole choking you!

I just don't care about Bjorn & his stupid baby mama.

Aww during the party scene, I thought of and missed Torstein ... He always enjoyed a good party.

I thought Aslaug was pregnant by the wanderer too!?!

Edited March 28, 2015 by jnymph

[green]

RIP Athelstan :( I will miss him very much as he was my favorite character. What sucks is in this episode he was getting interesting again & then BAM! Floki bumps him off. What's confusing to me isn't Ragnar going to be pissed at Floki for 86ing his BFF? Maybe we'll see some Ragnar wrath towards Floki next week.

 

I would imagine that it is because kings can't play short term personal revenge games.  Not ones that know how to rule long term.  Ragnar needs Floki's boat-building skills ... for now anyway.  Just like he needs Kalf and his men of Hedeby not dead from a civil war ...  for now anyway.  First things first (Paris!) then see how things shake out.

[Captanne]

Ragnar is definitely a long-game player -- from plots we've seen (his vision of going west is probably the best example; if that's not long-game-thinking, I don't know what is) -- but he's also willing to take immediate action if the advantage presents itself (a handy battle ax can fix a lot of problems very quickly.)

 

I was very fond of the character of Athelstan as, clearly, was Ragnar.  The scene bonding the friendship between them was very moving.  (Both scenes -- the one in the room and the one on the mountainside.)

 

I'm gratified to see that what came across on screen is what the creator of the series wanted.  (I read that interview.)  Ragnar tells us he's changed now; the producer told us that's what he wants people to see; and I could see it in Fimmel's performance.  

 

For some weird reason, I even thought that moment with Rollo on the beach with the maquette of Paris at his feet was very powerful though not a word was spoken.  In another's hands, it would have been hokey as shit.  Here, the Seer might as well have been in the scene with him -- it was evocative and powerful.  Neat.  

 

I really loved this whole episode.

 

Except for every time I said out loud, "Go away, Floki.  You suck."  or "Floki, you are the worst." which has become my norm when I watch this show ever.  It is the first time I ever said, "Nice.  Throttle the woman you have a twisted brand of love for who bore your child and now go kill a naked man on his knees in his bedroom.  Don't forget to apologize!"  

 

That Floki killed Athelstan was predictable because he is so base and fucking awful.  However -- it's complicated and the complicated narrative can be read 8,000,000 different ways from the macrocosmic "Floki represents the whole Viking existence being changed and resisting" to "Floki is a childish, narcissistic, jealous 5 year old fuckhead."

 

I go with the latter.

 

I think both and everything in between is probably legitimate.

 

Edited for grammar.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Captanne

[SingleMaltBlonde]

Did anyone else think that was a middle aged woman at first? I thought Ragnar had found some old 'working girl' for Athelstan for some reason.

 

 

I had the same thought.

[justawatcher]

With regard to a lot of things happening: the Game of Thrones folks have said in interviews that for them, episodes 1-3 set up the arc for the season, 4-6 begin to get the story moving, and 7-10 are the Oh Hell,Hang On For The Ride episodes.

 

Seems like Vikings may be following that style this season.

[Yeldarbe]

Posting this before reading the entire thread...

Geez, I take back my previous opinion on the actress playing Judith. Girl gave it her all in this episode. That whole sequence just made me feel sick to my stomach, so shout-out to the bloke in the crowd who yelled "have mercy!" Not sure if he was in-character or just an appalled extra who didn't know what the day's work would entail, but it was a tiny sliver of reprieve in what was otherwise a pretty gruelling sequence.

I was watching with cc on and all I saw during that scene was "NO mercy!"

[Amerilla]

I just saw the episode this morning, so I'm still processing, but...put me in the "F*ck Floki" camp. With something sharp and pointy.

 

I suspected this was coming, but I'm still going to miss Athelstan. That said, as with Siggy, they did a beautiful job with it.  Floki and Athelstan's "visions" were appropriate to both their religions and their characters. I liked that the Vikings chanting and drumming were discordant with Athelstan's Latin chants - it would have been easy for them to synch up the rhythms of his prayers to their drums to build to that moment of Floki's arrival, but instead it underscored the differences in their faith.  

 

And I appreciate giving us a couple good looks at Athelstan's abs before sending him off to Heaven.  Who knew Kattegat had CrossFit?

 

I agree with the poster that said Ragnar killing the Wessex survior was about saving face. I think there was a parallel there with Ecbert and Judith - he had to let the puninshment unfold to a certain point, because she had dishonored his son, and by extention, dishonored him. Because he's a Magnificent Bastard, he probably would let it go all the way, but he had to suspect Athelstan was the father, and that she'd probably spill under pressure, and that he could use that to mitigate the punishment.

 

In both cases, though, it illustrated the whole "good man/corrupt man" aspect.

 

If you asked Ragnar "why did you kill that man?" he might well have argued that he was doing excatly what the man would have wished - sent him back to his family. He says at Athelstan's grave that "I always believed that death is a fate far better than life, for you will be reunited with lost loved ones."

 

Ecbert, too, might have let Judith's punishment go on, even knowing Athelstan was the father, but he genuinely believes Athelstan is a holy man - in fact, now a Christian martyr, dying in grace at the hand of a Pagan - and it's not a huge leap to say he genuinely believes both Judith and Baby Alfred are sanctified by that love.

 

(Floki, for that matter, would argue that he was making a sacrifice to the gods, that he was protecting Ragnar and his friends from the evil of Christianity....but, at the same time, he was always hella jealous of Ragnar's love and fidelity to Athelstan.)

 

Does Athelstan end up being the destruction of both Ragnar and Ecbert? Ragnar isn't going to know who killed Athelstan, which will distract him at a moment when he needs to be un-distracted. And Aethelwulf isn't going to be happy to be stuck with his wife and her bastard because Daddy thinks wife and baby are holy relics.

 

George, Travis, Linus, Jennie Jacques (Judith) - wow, all of them just brought their A+ game her. Well done, people.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Amerilla

[Ohwell]

Poor Judith.  I never cared all that much for her but the actress really sold her terror and anguish at the thought of having her ears and nose cut off.  I wanted to scream right along with her.   When I think of the first time she saw Athelstan, I'm reminded of that Taylor Swift song "I Knew You Were Trouble."   

[SingleMaltBlonde]

And I appreciate giving us a couple good looks at Athelstan's abs before sending him off to Heaven.  Who knew Kattegat had CrossFit?

I think the Vikings were the originators of functional fitness.

[RiddleyWalker]

I just saw the episode this morning, so I'm still processing, but...put me in the "F*ck Floki" camp. With something sharp and pointy.

 

…..

And I appreciate giving us a couple good looks at Athelstan's abs before sending him off to Heaven.  Who knew Kattegat had CrossFit?

 

I agree with the poster that said Ragnar killing the Wessex survior was about saving face. I think there was a parallel there with Ecbert and Judith - he had to let the puninshment unfold to a certain point, because she had dishonored his son, and by extention, dishonored him. Because he's a Magnificent Bastard, he probably would let it go all the way, but he had to suspect Athelstan was the father, and that she'd probably spill under pressure, and that he could use that to mitigate the punishment.

 

In both cases, though, it illustrated the whole "good man/corrupt man" aspect.

 

…...

Ecbert, too, might have let Judith's punishment go on, even knowing Athelstan was the father, but he genuinely believes Athelstan is a holy man - in fact, now a Christian martyr, dying in grace at the hand of a Pagan - and it's not a huge leap to say he genuinely believes both Judith and Baby Alfred are sanctified by that love.

 

…….

 

I'm also pretty fed-up with Floki, and I have to think Hirst planned it that way--Floki starting out as the flaky jokester but became more and more intolerant and dangerous as his gods are threatened. We're following the Vikings own spiritual transformation from pagan to christian along with Ragnar and his friendship with Athelstan, and now Ragnar's shaving his head in solidarity with Athelstan and putting on his cross (even if Ragnar is not explicitly Christian) is where we, as the audience, are meant to be at this point in the story, I think. Definitely a change in Ragnar.

 

Yeah, Athelstan was the most ripped in this episode that we've seen. I'll miss Athelstan and George Blagden who I've finally quit seeing as James McAvoy's doppelgänger.

 

I agree that Ragnar and Ecgbert were both "saving face" but I have to question whether Ecgbert really thinks baby Alfred is sanctified by his father's "holiness." I haven't seen a lot of fervency in Ecgbert's spirituality (if there is any). He seems to be a very pragmatic, calculating ruler who, I think, will use his nominal religion for other purposes if need be. As discussed upthread, I think he recognizes the intellectual and artistic gifts Athelstan had and is happy to have his son as an heir to his kingdom as opposed to his brutal and thick-headed son. Plus, he had a bit of a romantic attachment to Athelstan. ;)

[SingleMaltBlonde]

I can't buy Ecbert as a true believer.  He saw Athelstan and Judith flirting in the hot tub....maybe like Ragnar he is threatened by his son?  He seems to being using his son's faith against him.  Maybe he likes playing a sick game of human chess?

 

I do think that Athelstan/Ragnar/Ecbert is a really interesting twist on a love triangle. 

[Captanne]

Oh, I forgot to mention -- if I may be forgiven for taking a dip in the VERY shallow end of the pool -- was I the only one who said out loud, "Please, God, let him be sleeping naked...." as Athelstan arose from his bed?

 

Yeah, I said that.

 

I don't feel good about saying that.  But I did say it.  With hope in my heart.

[Babalooie]

One question, why do Fimmel and almost all the men on this show speak in a tone that is only a few decibels above a whisper.

 

 

Maybe it's a cultural thing.  I had an elderly Danish man living next door for a few years.  He spoke softly, too, unlike us loud Americans.

[Captanne]

Singlemaltblonde -- I'd make that a rectangle with Lagertha at another corner.  It's an interesting balancing act.

[SingleMaltBlonde]

 "Floki represents the whole Viking existence being changed and resisting" to "Floki is a childish, narcissistic, jealous 5 year old fuckhead."

 

 

 

I think it can be and is both.

Singlemaltblonde -- I'd make that a rectangle with Lagertha at another corner.  It's an interesting balancing act.

 

No argument here.

 

It seems to be a certain kind of progress that I have sat here routing for Ragnar and Athelstan to hook up...it reminds me of when I was a kid watchng Moonlighting:-)

[SingleMaltBlonde]

Why do they have to lick the seers hand? It always grosses me out.

Given his black lips it might be better than kissing him.

[Amerilla]

I haven't seen a lot of fervency in Ecgbert's spirituality (if there is any). He seems to be a very pragmatic, calculating ruler who, I think, will use his nominal religion for other purposes if need be.

 

I'm conflicted on this, because I agree with your assessment...but I don't know how to square the circle in terms of his actions towards Judith, here.

 

Unless there's something in him that believes that Athelstan is more than just smart, gifted, pretty monk, there is no reason to spare Judith's...face. Athelstan, as far as Ecbert knows, is never coming back to Wessex, so it's not like he'd worry that hurting her would upset Athelstan at some point down the road. She can be deformed and shamed and still be Alfred's mother; she can be killed for adultery and Alfred will be even more under Ecbert's control.

 

OTOH - maybe it is purely political, and he just needed a good excuse not to too badly mangle King Aelle's daughter. It just seems like equating her with the Virgin Mary is way over the top, and something that may be meaningful down the road - much like Ragnar telling Athelstan that Ragnar would follow him where he went, "like John the Baptist."

 

Speaking of babies - interesting that both Siggy Jr and Baby the Great have mothers who are scarred or deformed. There was a focus on how the personality of each baby related to the parents. Porunn worried her baby would be weak and damaged because she was  weak and damaged. Ecbert thinks that this baby will be special because Athelstan is special.    

 

Oh, I forgot to mention -- if I may be forgiven for taking a dip in the VERY shallow end of the pool -- was I the only one who said out loud, "Please, God, let him be sleeping naked...." as Athelstan arose from his bed?

 

I don't know that I thought about that, but I certainly wouldn't have minded. I did feel a little bad he died in his tighty-whities.

[justawatcher]

As far as Ecbert's stopping the torture, here's the way I see it:

 

Son wasn't going to man up and take paternity, so it was going to be public that the baby was a bastard. Had it been the blacksmith's kid, they probably would have shipped Judith back home with the baby or gone thru with the ears/nose deal, but Ecbert knew it was Athelstan's kid. He wanted Athelstan's kid to be legitimate, to be his heir, because...it's Athelstan. But with the son having put his wife up for adultery, the only way Ecbert could make that happen was to proclaim it a holy birth and he couldn't say who the father was without being complicit to the adultery. It had to come from Judith. Once the name was said publicly, then the Virgin Mary parallels could also be publicly spoken and allow Athelstan's son to be the heir.

[Haleth]

The whole episode was visually stunning, brutal and beautiful. Aethelstan's death was hard but he received it with joy, having consecrated himself with oil in order to face God with a pure conscience and soul. (And killer abs. Youza.)

I wonder if it was Fimmel's choice to carry the boy over his shoulder (adorably) when Kalf arrived, knowing that he would be carrying another loved one (tragically) at the end of the episode. Fimmel is a wonder, cute as a button when he woke up and dumped the kid on the floor, then scary as hell as blood dripped down his face when he shaved off his hair.

The music was incredible as well.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Haleth

[Ravenya003]

I'm also pretty fed-up with Floki, and I have to think Hirst planned it that way--Floki starting out as the flaky jokester but became more and more intolerant and dangerous as his gods are threatened.

 

 

It's also the character trajectory of Loki in Norse mythology - he started as a fun-loving trickster, but slowly fell into evil, culminating in his deliberate murder of Baldor the Beautiful (who bears more than few resemblances to our notion of Jesus Christ, and as such, Athelstan). So I agree - it can't be a coincidence. 

[RiddleyWalker]

It's also the character trajectory of Loki in Norse mythology - he started as a fun-loving trickster, but slowly fell into evil, culminating in his deliberate murder of Baldor the Beautiful (who bears more than few resemblances to our notion of Jesus Christ, and as such, Athelstan). So I agree - it can't be a coincidence. 

 

Thanks for the info! That's really fascinating and adds a lot of depth to Floki's character arc and my appreciation of it.

[attica]

With hope in my heart.

 

Gosh, if we can't hope for naked men with good abs, what's a Valhalla for?

[pasdetrois]

 

He wanted Athelstan's kid to be legitimate, to be his heir, because...it's Athelstan.

The king is a practical guy. He prefers Athelstan to his own son - we can see why - and he saw his chance to have a better heir than what he believes he will get if his own son fathers a child. Literally, like father, like son.

[jnymph]

Usually I don't like to overuse the "like" button; but I've really enjoyed reading everyone's posts here this morning. I appreciate all the insight and humor, it actually adds to the whole Viking experience.

Oh. And I now hate Floki with a vengeance too.

Edited March 29, 2015 by jnymph

[green]

It's also the character trajectory of Loki in Norse mythology - he started as a fun-loving trickster, but slowly fell into evil, culminating in his deliberate murder of Baldor the Beautiful (who bears more than few resemblances to our notion of Jesus Christ, and as such, Athelstan). So I agree - it can't be a coincidence. 

 

Thanks so much for that awesome insight.  Love the layers to this show.

 

And I agree with the others above that Ecbert had a pre-recorded in his head speech ready as soon as Judith blurted out Athelstan's name.  Politically clever as usually he could easily manipulate the locals with his hocus pocus.  Had it planned all along as soon as Judith gave up Athelstan's name.

 

He and Ragnar are put in parallel in this series down to their affection for Athelstan.  He knew who the father was and encouraged that tryst all along hoping for an offspring from Athelstan.  ("Come into my hot bath naked, you two crazy kids").  If Ecbert can't have Athelstan then he will have his grandson to help raise.  And like others before said, Alfred would have to be a cut above any off spring that dolt of his son Aethelwulf could ever produce and a better king eventually.

[SingleMaltBlonde]

The king is a practical guy. He prefers Athelstan to his own son - we can see why - and he saw his chance to have a better heir than what he believes he will get if his own son fathers a child. Literally, like father, like son.

I can't quite believe his ego isn't big enough to think his genius might jump a generation.

[Haleth]

And the kid will still grow up in the same court.  Why would Ecbert think Aethelstan's genetic material would make a difference?  Plus on the show there is already one heir that we know of ahead of li'l Alfred. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by Haleth

[Captanne]

I love your observation about the more subtle parallels between Ecbert and Ragnar, green.  It makes me wonder if he will respond to the news of Athelstan's death the way Ragnar did to the village massacre.  (Ie, it will be Ecbert who relieves us of Floki rather than Ragnar.  Or maybe, it will just be a question of who gets to Floki first.)

 

One other thing to consider -- Ragnar has changed according to Fimmel's performance and script (literally), the creator of the show in an interview and plotwise.  We don't know, yet, how he's changed.  After the loss of Athelstan and the village, he may well take Floki to his bosom and realize the old ways are the best, least painful ways.

 

Fall in love with a Christian and you won't see him again in Valhalla.  He's lost to you forever.  That may just be too painful to accept -- so that may be a sign that one needs to return to the old ways to avoid the pain of such a loss.

 

The village massacre would be a perfectly normal catalyst to turn him (rabidly) against the English Christians.

 

This all remains to be seen, I think.

 

Maybe we'll see Floki hoisted aloft on a shield and made a hero with Ragnar leading the parade.

[Amerilla]

In Floki's vision: does anyone know which god/figure the carving was supposed to represent?

 

It just now occured to me that the blood flowing down the face of the carving parallels the blood flowing down Ragnar's face in the end scene.

[RiddleyWalker]

Usually I don't like to overuse the "like" button; but I've really enjoyed reading everyone's posts here this morning. I appreciate all the insight and humor, it actually adds to the whole Viking experience.

Oh. And I now hate Floki with a vengeance too.

I tend to "like" a lot of comments which, unfortunately, always makes me think about my son's comments about "Dog Facebook" after watching our dogs. When dogs are sniffing a bush or fire-hydrant, they're actually reading the other dog's comment and thinking "Hmmm...Interesting..." When they lift their leg it's a "like."  ;)

Edited March 29, 2015 by RiddleyWalker

[DHDancer]

I tend to "like" a lot of comments which, unfortunately, always makes me think about my son's comments about "Dog Facebook" after watching our dogs. When dogs are sniffing a bush or fire-hydrant, they're actually reading the other dog's comment and thinking "Hmmm...Interesting..." When they lift their leg it's a "like."  ;)

 

OMG, I snorted coffee reading this.   This image really appealed to me because I'm way more into my dogs than FB (I hate FB).

[nowornever]

Did I miss something or did Porunn actually send the Widow Borg to have sex with Bjorn? 

 

Bjorn was sweet with baby Siggy.  I was afraid of the "It's not a boy?" moment, although the Vikings do seem to appreciate women.   

[bandella]

It's also the character trajectory of Loki in Norse mythology - he started as a fun-loving trickster, but slowly fell into evil, culminating in his deliberate murder of Baldor the Beautiful (who bears more than few resemblances to our notion of Jesus Christ, and as such, Athelstan). So I agree - it can't be a coincidence. 

Also of note: there's a popular theory that Balder isn't authentic to Norse beliefs and was a Christian import -- a plot device, if you will, to introduce some fundamental aspects of Christianity. Namely, a perfect, beloved, saintly figure betrayed by one close to him. He spends some time in Hel(l) before showing up after the whole "cleanse the Earth with fire" motif and turning it into a paradise. Sounds familiar, huh? 

 

Of course, there's also a theory that Loki's malicious heel turn at the end of his story is itself a Christian take on the tale, as those wishing to convert the pagans didn't seem to understand and/or like the order/chaos dichotomy central to Norse mythology and instead wanted it to be a more familiar good/evil deal. There needed to be a central "evil" figure against which the "good" characters in the stories could unite, and whenever anything went wrong in Norse myths, Loki was at fault and had to fix it. Why not make him a true villain instead of just a troublemaker? 

 

That said, I've never gotten the vibe from Floki that he was supposed to be this lighthearted jokester character. He's always seemed to possess a pretty dark mean streak. Remember the incident with the priest (was it a priest?) tied to the pillar? That was pretty early on, if I remember correctly, and he seemed pretty damn gleeful about shooting the dude up with arrows. 

 

I still think Floki is due to get his. In the interview posted earlier in the thread, Hirst basically said as much. At this point, I'm actually kind of hoping Helga gets the honor of gutting him. He's not exactly a stellar husband. 

 

I too wondered about Ragnar carrying his kid over his shoulder like a sack of potatoes when Kalf and Ko. arrived. I like the idea that it was meant to echo him carrying Athelstan later. I also like it being just a random, quirky choice on the actor's part. He does so much with this role. I started out this show hating him and his constant smirking, but what can I say? He's really grown on me.