S03.E09: Do Mail Robots Dream of Electric Sheep?

[Blakeston]

I have pictures of myself in 1975 and don't think of it as sepia tones. It's ridiculous. It was a long time ago yes, sure, I was litte, but it's not the dawn of time. It's not even mad men.

I'm not sure I understand your criticism. If they made the wife of a World War II veteran out to be too elderly, then the makers of the show don't see the '80s as ancient history. That would mean they think the show is set a long time after World War II.

[sistermagpie]

It doesn't have to contradict what we've been shown, so it doesn't have to be a rewrite necessarily. Many movies dealing with stings or cons just don't show everything at first. It's just that this show hasn't used this device yet (or did they, with Jared? I forgot). I think it could be done well, but I like con movies.

 

 

It rewrites it in that what we've seen so far is Martha being overlooked at work and nobody suspecting everything. Now those scenes that didn't take place in Clark's presence turn out to have been fooling the audience. Sure they can do it that we just didn't see such and such happening, but it's still clearly presenting the FBI as being not in the middle of a hunt to catch an Illegal (which usually galvanizes everybody) and then saying oh, actually five minutes ago Martha confessed, was threatened with prison, they came up with a plan for her to work for them and she agreed to it. 

 

I can see that - each suspect is given a name of a different repair shop (they've all seen Gaad making a show out of his frustration with the robot), each shop receives a mail robot, they come back, are swept for bugs and... all robots have them! Some of them even several, of different countries of manufacture. Taffet is going to lose it!

 

 

I would think people would be pretty gullible to not suspect Gaad giving somebody the names of repair companies. More likely it would be Martha's job to find the repair company--if there isn't an office manager. I took this as one of those ways Martha uses her lowly status to her advantage. She's in charge of pen maintenance, after all!

 

And Martha was a little too quick to volunteer the information about Gaad and the mailbot.  So it's possible she's been flipped.

 

 

 

She may have been, but I think the idea is that she was quick to do it because she was there to do it--she's trying to set up Gene or somebody to take the fall for her and was giving Clark ideas on how to make this happen. He wasn't trying to get info out of her, she was taking control of covering her own ass. If Clark wants to protect her he'd better start now.

[Umbelina]

We shall see! 

 

Oh and for those who said they are giving up on this show because of the violence, or because they don't like Elizabeth or Philip's actions?  I highly recommend the Grantland review this week.  I linked it in the media thread.  Most of the reviews are interesting again this week, but that one hit on those core issues, and about why they actually make it important to watch. 

 

We've kind of had a sanitized version of spies and there actions before, or a fully action version, in a way, this show really is breaking new ground.  We get to know the victims before they die, and we see the conflicts, so it is harder to take, but also, in a strange way, important to see.

[ruby24]

I can't believe Martha's going along with this. Is she crazy? Is she afraid and trying the best way to preserve her safety? She didn't seem to be afraid, but she could be acting. She knows the marriage is a sham but wants to keep it going anyway? I don't know if I buy it. She knows nothing about him at all, he could turn on her at any moment. I'd believe her doing this to save her own life somehow, but to actually want this to continue is strange to me.

 

I bought her choosing to believe him in that exact moment last week, when he was trying to calm her down, but given any time to think it over, I would think she'd be in a constant state of terror from him, especially because now she knows the deal is she has to give him information when they see each other. I don't know how they can still even pretend to be having a real relationship, even if he does have some feelings for her.

[Umbelina]

I can't believe Martha's going along with this. Is she crazy? Is she afraid and trying the best way to preserve her safety? She didn't seem to be afraid, but she could be acting. She knows the marriage is a sham but wants to keep it going anyway? I don't know if I buy it. She knows nothing about him at all, he could turn on her at any moment. I'd believe her doing this to save her own life somehow, but to actually want this to continue is strange to me.

 

I bought her choosing to believe him in that exact moment last week, when he was trying to calm her down, but given any time to think it over, I would think she'd be in a constant state of terror from him, especially because now she knows the deal is she has to give him information when they see each other. I don't know how they can still even pretend to be having a real relationship, even if he does have some feelings for her.

Exactly.

 

That's why I kind of think she's already confessed and is working with the FBI against him.

 

She's not some dewy eyed young woman barely out of her teens here.  She works for the FBI, and all Clark really gave her was love talk.  They were both wide awake that night, both thinking.  She actually HAS a fairly decent excuse, she thought Clark WAS Taffet. 

 

Also the whole side-eye at Stan (who COULD identify Philip) from Aderhold and Gaad?  That may play right into this whole thing, because what better reason to keep Stan out of their (if true) plot that uses Martha than to keep him out of the loop because he's not acting "right" lately.  Why would they read him in?  He's untrustworthy, and if I'm right, and he's been followed?  He's a suspect now too, meeting in secret with the KGB, still fighting to get double agent Nina out, and now letting someone knock him out when he was guarding Zenaida.  Hell, would YOU trust him if he were your employee and a bug had just been found in your office?  He LOOKS suspicious as hell.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Umbelina

[stillshimpy]

Aderholt and Gaad sure don't seem to be trusting Stan anymore.  I thought it was pretty stupid of Stan to meet up with the KGB right when the entire office is under suspicion and likely being followed.

 

Very true and it might explain the look that passed between Gaad and Aderholt after Stan left....and immediately went to meet Oleg apparently.  Oh dear.  

 

As much as I'd love to believe that Martha is working with Gaad at this point, I just don't.  Whereas I just can't fathom her character motivation, "I have know idea who you really are, or who you work for, or what you're doing....but I'm willing to trust you, despite years of lies and complete desperation on my part"   as being within the realm of human responses....the main problem is that the show would then be over as we know it.  

Edited March 26, 2015 by stillshimpy

[RedheadZombie]

The whole episode worked for me though, everything was tense!  Philip opening the door to Martha's apartment, the phone ringing, every scene, all the way through, right up until the end with Philip having a dangerous showdown with Gabriel.  It just all worked for me.

 

When Martha's phone rang, I was afraid that Philip would think she was receiving some signal, and over react by killing her.  He trusts her, but he's not stupid.  He's constantly looking for a setup.

 

I like Elizabeth. This is partly a defiant feeling because every time a female character polarizes folks or gets a lot of hate, I tend to rally behind said character on principle. Philip is easy to like, all charming and with conflicts an American audience can relate to, and it annoys me sometimes that the cold, tough, unrootable characteristics were given to Elizabeth who already has the uphill battle of being a woman on TV. 

 

So, I give Elizabeth a lot of grace. But I also just find the character deeply sympathetic, and think Keri Russell has done a wonderful job with presenting a flawed, complex woman holding tightly to a set of beliefs that she just could not go on without at this point.

 

But this episode was a tough one to be in her corner for (or Philip’s for that matter). Kudos to the show for not whitewashing the horrific acts that P and E commit every episode, but damn. I think I need the week to recover from this one. Seniors and children get me every time.

 

I understand what you're saying, but I think Elizabeth is written unsympathetic deliberately, and people are responding to that, not to the fact that she's a woman.  I love that Elizabeth is written this way.  She's getting the role that's usually given to the male.  It's always the female that's softer, more empathetic, more led by her heart, etc.  But that's Philip.  Elizabeth is hard core, militant, zealot.  It's just not seen in a female character on TV, and I'm sure Keri loves playing the role.  Of course I greatly prefer Philip, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the character of Elizabeth.

[Helena Dax]

I don't think Martha's trying to fool Philip, but I'd love to know what's going on in her mind.   Who does she think he is? Is she afraid for her life? Does she think their love's more important than anything else? It's fascinating.

 

I loved the scenes with Elizabeth and that woman, although I agree that everything was a bit contrived. Elizabeth could have told her that they'd kill her son if she told anyone about them, like she did when that man saw her last season. And tbh, I wasn't touched, maybe because I knew she was a goner the moment Elizabeth laid eyes on her and I didn't  get attached. I just enjoyed  the acting and the writing. 

 

Philip seems so close to blow up... And the things that are driving him crazy aren't going to disappear any time soon: Paige's future training, Martha, Kimmie... I think his meltdown is just a question of time. And by meltdown I mean killing people.

[Caria]

What a great show.  I absolutely LOVE what they've done with the relationship between Clark and Martha.  I think deep inside she must have deduced that he's a spy,  probably for Russia as this was at the height of the cold war, and yet she's come to a conscious decision to go forward status quo.  I also love that Clark has developed true feelings for frumpy Martha who is the polar opposite of Elizabeth.  I'm also very interested in the Zandina (spell??) storyline as I'm very curious to know if she really is a double agent or not but the thing that I don't get is why in the world would the US make a trade for her for Nina? Zandina is a Soviet patriot that the Russians would obviously want back but why would the US care about Nina to the degree that they would actually let go of a prize capture like Zandina?

[Chaos Theory]

I think Martha is going along with this because she really has no choice.  Sitting on this side of the TV we can come up with a thousand "but she can....."  however in her place she really has no good choice so she is choosing the devil she knows and going all in.    She possibly may have motives that we have not seen yet.  She may be working an angle.  Giving Clark the information on the mail robot and Gaad seemed small enough and got Clark to trust her.  She may be looking for him to divulge more truth and then go to her bosses with that.  She can't really go with nothing but if she goes with something.....its a dangerous play but Martha is slowly becoming a player.  Or she really could just be going all in with the devil she knows because the other choice is too scary to deal with.  

 

I am not sure if anyone brought it up or not.  It was small scene in between a number of larger ones; but i really liked the Paige and Henry scene.  It was well done and went to show how little the kids notice or care that their parents are never around.  What teenager left to their own devices goes to bed on time and makes sure their little brother does the same thing?   Paige scolded Henry and made sure he got his proper rest.  The scene was great.  

Edited March 26, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[90PercentGravity]

I hate Hans. The actor is just not good, and that really stands out on this show where the casting is usually perfect. His accent is all over the place. He looks like a little kid. He's awful. They couldn't have found a legit South African actor? The storyline might have worked with better casting, but I find him completely unwatchable.

[txhorns79]

I don't think Martha's trying to fool Philip, but I'd love to know what's going on in her mind.   Who does she think he is? Is she afraid for her life? Does she think their love's more important than anything else? It's fascinating.

 

I think Martha is partially terrified, and partially just a lonely woman trying to hold on to what she thinks she has.    I mean suppose Clark gets scared and never comes back, then what does she have?  She might have her life, but it's pretty damn depressing to think that you've been the victim of a huge con job that put people in danger and turned you into an unwitting spy.  This way, she gets to prove her "worth" to him and he'll stick around.   

[Mrs peel]

JFK served in WWII. Know how old he'd have been in 1983? Mid50s.

i actually find this a bit offensive, albeit unwittingly, to the greatest generation who were in their prime in 1983.

JFK was born in 1917, so he would have been 66 in 1983. Only the youngest of the "greatest generation" would have been in their prime. I think we also need to remember that 50 used to be considered "older" - it is the boomer generation that has started the idea that being in your 50s is the prime of life.

I was also troubled by the death though, because I wonder why they used no disguises and why just ignoring her wasn't an option. She may never have known they were there.

The South African spy and his clumsy murder is just further evidence of why the Russians lost the Cold War.

I don't buy Arkady plotting with Stan to save Nadia. I just don't know why he would do it. And Stan is crazy if he thinks the CIA will push to trade for her, though again this points out that The FBI would not have been running a foreign agent.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Mrs peel

[txhorns79]

 

The South African spy and his clumsy murder is just further evidence of why the Russians lost the Cold War.

 

I don't know about that.  I'm sure the Americans probably made bad choices when recruiting people as well. 

 

 

I was also troubled by the death though, because I wonder why they used no disguises and why just ignoring her wasn't an option. She may never have known they were there.

 

I don't think they could ever take the chance to just ignore an unknown potential threat like that.  What if she heard them and called the police?  What if she was armed?  What if she attacked them?   

Edited March 27, 2015 by txhorns79

[benteen]

Gaad's career should be over after this.  The bug alone should do it but his little hissy fit with the mail robot ensured this latest fiasco to happen.

 

Operation Mail Robot was a sloppy one for the Jennings and Elizabeth has been sloppy in her work this season ever since she let Gaad see her face and live in the premiere.

 

Elizabeth got really lucky that the woman had a bad heart because otherwise it would have been a messy situation that would have destroyed the mission.

Edited March 27, 2015 by benteen

[sistermagpie]

I bought her choosing to believe him in that exact moment last week, when he was trying to calm her down, but given any time to think it over, I would think she'd be in a constant state of terror from him, especially because now she knows the deal is she has to give him information when they see each other. I don't know how they can still even pretend to be having a real relationship, even if he does have some feelings for her.

 

 

I don't think Martha thinks the marriage is a sham or thinks she's pretending about her relationship. She thinks Clark loves her and wants to protect her and feels bad about getting her into danger. He started out trying to scam her but fell in love with her.

 

I don't think they could ever take the chance to just ignore an unknown potential threat like that.  What if she heard them and called the police?  What if she was armed?  What if she attacked them?

 

 

She wasn't that unknown. They heard her come in and then she turned on the light, which would indicate somebody walking into that office and not knowing anyone was there, because they turned on the light. Then Elizabeth went up and peeked in and saw an old woman filing, unaware anyone was there. When we're talking about murdering somebody it's not unreasonable to wait until there's an actual threat. Or even less than a threat in this case.

 

I also love that Clark has developed true feelings for frumpy Martha who is the polar opposite of Elizabeth.

 

 

He hasn't developed romantic feelings for her. He developed feelings for Kimmie and Anneleise and Fred too. But he cares about Martha a lot since he spends a lot of time with her and he's seriously guilty about what he's doing to her.

 

What teenager left to their own devices goes to bed on time and makes sure their little brother does the same thing?   Paige scolded Henry and made sure he got his proper rest.  The scene was great.

 

 

A goody two shoes in a church youth group who likes feeling responsible. Iow, Paige.

[Umbelina]

Oldest children with absent or impaired parents do that routinely.

[Anne Elk]

Wow, din-din with Martha and Clark was cree-pee. If Phillip can get it up with her now he's a sexual iron man, no question.

 

Martha knows that she's doomed if Clark decides to get rid of her and the complications of keeping her, and she's fucked if the FBI finds out what she's done. She's trying to save herself by making herself as indispensible to Clark as possible. She will accept him with no questions asked, and she will pass on whatever info she can get from the office. She figures it's the only way to avoid the consequences of her earlier gullibility -- prison or death. 

 

Oleg clearly enjoyed the opportunity to give Stan a nice unplanned whack in the head. When will Stan learn that he can't trust these Soviets? Not that I think Oleg is playing Stan with the Rezidentura's blessing, but I don't think he'd hesitate to throw Stan to the wolves if there's even a possibility of anything going wrong.

 

I figured Hans was done for, but now that Elizabeth has gotten in touch with her feelings, I'm not so sure.

 

So, anybody else think 

that Paige's church is going to turn out to be a child marriage/polygamy cult?

(Pure speculation on my part, but based on the previews so I'm tagging it) Those scenes from next week were intriguing!

Edited March 27, 2015 by Anne Elk

[paramitch]

I liked the episode. I agree that it was theatrical, but I thought it was deliberately so, and I thought it actually got to the heart of the big dialogue that's been going on throughout the season about Elizabeth and who she truly is. 

 

Keri Russell's Emmy reel, ladies and gentlemen. And Lois Smith was no slouch herself.

I adore Lois Smith and was so delighted to see her here -- she's been one of my favorite character actresses for decades, and I always think she brings this warmth to them. What I liked about Betty was that she projected both intelligence and vulnerability. I know her pronouncement ("That's what evil people tell themselves when they do evil things") was dramatic, but I have been wanting someone to say that (or something like it) to Elizabeth forever, especially this season. Elizabeth needs to lose her illusions that each murder will help the world become a better place. If she's going to kill ordinary people, I want it to hurt her, I want her to suffer for it.

 

What Philip seems to know that Elizabeth does not, is that even if they create this better world, to echo a line from the movie Serenity, they will have created a world they themselves are too corrupted by their actions to live in. Philip too does evil things to further their agenda, but he seems to do them without kidding himself about the cost.

 

Yes it was a good scene. But in 1983 WWII was not he pearl frame oh it was so long ago that we think of now. Really irritating .

I don't understand this, since World War II would have been four decades earlier for this woman -- surely enough time for her to put the pictures in pearl frames. As others have pointed out, the implication was that her husband was a specialist who may have been slightly older than other servicemen, and the fact that she specified that they were married twice also supports that idea for me, as well. I bought that she and her husband were in their 30s during the war (so still young, but on the cusp of middle age) and that the 40 years since had brought her into her 70s.

 

Not to mention Elizabeth spilling out the heart pills.  Uh...huh?  Okay, so she somehow knew that overdosing the poor old lady would kill her rather than make her vomit or any other number of things.  Fine.  I guess when you have a handy bottle of plot device pills at the ready, they might as well be lethal.  

I just figured the heart meds were either digitalis or potassium based -- either one is/was beneficial in small doses, but lethal in larger ones.

 

I could watch more Stan and Oleg. At this point Stan, Oleg, and Philip could form a bowling team and I'd just watch them bowl, drink beer, and rib each other for an hour every week. 

 

Maybe put Arkady in there, too.

What I find interesting about Stan and Oleg is that they also subtly echo one of the themes of "The Americans" for me, which is that we may all be citizens in the big picture of our respective countries, but in the small picture, life is much more about relationships. I like that there is a kind of grudging comradeship (ahem) emerging between the two men. I think in other circumstances they would end up liking each other (and going bowling).

 

Oddly enough, I always like seeing Stan make connections with other characters on this show, especially this season, because his loneliness is just so palpable. I know Stan isn't a favorite with many, but I think Emmerich is just a superb actor. He's so subtle but to me he makes Stan rootable and understandable. 

 

Philip has been having doubts for a while now.  I think this was the first time we've seen Elizabeth have some of her own.  Maybe, just maybe the old lady's words will resonate with her, a tiny seed planted, that may have interesting growth as well as roots.

 

The whole episode worked for me though, everything was tense!  Philip opening the door to Martha's apartment, the phone ringing, every scene, all the way through, right up until the end with Philip having a dangerous showdown with Gabriel.  It just all worked for me.

I want Betty's words to resonate, and I think they will. One of the scenes they always show in the Previouslies on "The Americans this year is Elizabeth proclaiming to Philip (about Paige), "At least she'll know who she is!" The irony is that I think this season is actually about the fact that it is ELIZABETH who does not truly know herself, and it's going to be a very interesting moment when she realizes that fact.

 

The scene between Clarke and Martha was so tense. And kind of heartbreaking. I think Martha thinks that she is all right with their situation now because of her love for Clarke, but I do think that at some point this is going to break her. She won't be able to actively and systematically commit treason for the long term. But I understood her and like so many other characters this episode, she broke my heart a little.

 

I like Elizabeth. This is partly a defiant feeling because every time a female character polarizes folks or gets a lot of hate, I tend to rally behind said character on principle. Philip is easy to like, all charming and with conflicts an American audience can relate to, and it annoys me sometimes that the cold, tough, unrootable characteristics were given to Elizabeth who already has the uphill battle of being a woman on TV. 

 

So, I give Elizabeth a lot of grace. But I also just find the character deeply sympathetic, and think Keri Russell has done a wonderful job with presenting a flawed, complex woman holding tightly to a set of beliefs that she just could not go on without at this point.

I like Elizabeth too, in spite of myself, and even when I don't, I think Keri is pretty amazing in the role. What's going to be interesting to me is to see what happens if, as I suspect, Elizabeth is not going to be able to hold onto those beliefs.

 

The Two Lovers of Nina story arc is just flat out stupid. The FBI is populated by people you would not trust to manage a coin operated laundromat. 

For me this plot thread works because (as with most of this show) it's more focused on characters and relationships than actual spycraft. I find Nina fascinating, and I could believe that Stan (to a certain degree) would work with Oleg to try to ensure her safety. But no matter what happens from there, I am most fascinated and entertained by watching Oleg and Stan navigate a kind of weird forced companionship. The tragedy of "The Americans" is that all of these people removed from their political ideologies would like or even love each other as individuals. Their patriotism could be seen as what is best and worst about each of them. 

 

What I didn't buy was Elizabeth leaving her alone for so long, and then giving her so much accurate information. Based on that glare when Elizabeth left to get the water, I thought there would be a note that said "I didn't kill myself, a woman who looked like ____ killed me" hidden among all the paperwork, or a dictaphone running in a desk drawer or something. I think the writers fell in love with this scene and cut some corners to force it to play out the way it did, which is unusual for this show, IMHO.

 

Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense, to bug the Mail Robot. In addition to what you said, it's also a noisy piece of equipment. (And I wish they called it a delivery robot or something, because I keep thinking people are saying Male Robot, it's distracting). 

I really hope there is some kind of aftermath or fallout from that moment, because I was so frustrated Betty simply stayed there. Upon reflection, I could understand that even if she had run, her age and the lateness of the hour meant that it would have been pretty easy for Elizabeth and Philip to find and catch her. But I also hope that she wrote something down somewhere, although at that point, she still thought she was simply being robbed, and didn't know her death was a certainty.

 

I loved the scenes with Elizabeth and the old lady. I know some people don't and I understand why but I didn't feel emotionally manipulated at all. I thought the scenes were done masterfully.

I thought the episode was fantastic.

 

I agree, and I thought it brought to the surface a lot of the fears and inner struggles Elizabeth has had throughout this whole season. I think the potential revelations of this episode will have a huge effect on the way this season's story ends.

 

Last but not least, I loved that Philip called out Gabriel on his easy praise and words of affection, when contempt lurks behind all of it. I loved that Philip laid the cards on the table that he is not so easily managed or manipulated, and that he is aware of Gabriel's motives and approaches. I love Langella in the role, but Gabriel needed to be taken down a peg or two.

[soapfaninnc]

Oldest children with absent or impaired parents do that routinely.

Yep. I was just like Paige.  Except I was no goody two shoes and I didn't go to church at all.  But someone needed to look after my brother - 8 years younger than I was. Oddly enough our mother greatly resembled Elizabeth - not in looks  - but ideals. She also only saw us as extensions of herself - not as separate human beings. 

 

It didn't help that the old lady last night looked like my grandmother - the one who was more like a mother to me. 

 

For those reasons, I just wish Elizabeth would either have a complete breakdown or be jailed or killed. I cannot stand her. I hope Paige rejects her and her precious ideals rather forcefully. 

 

And I agree that Hans is just awful. He's all over the place - reminds me of Jared last season. He's fixated on Elizabeth because she's so true to the mission and she's beautiful. 

[sistermagpie]

Oldest children with absent or impaired parents do that routinely.

 

 

To be fair, it's something most oldest children do period. My sister did it all the time for me--that's what babysitting is!

 

I do think that as much as I personally didn't like the Betty scene, that it's going to turn out to be important in Elizabeth evolving her position. I don't know how obvious it could be, but they could find a way to do a callback to it and let us know that Elizabeth's thinking about her words.

 

Can anyone offer any thoughts on exactly what Gabriel was trying to get out in the last scene? I understood that Philip was rejecting his "love" that was all words and never actual caring, but what was Gabriel trying to get Philip to with the marriage vs. love and story about Elizabeth choosing him? There had to be some manipulation going on and I wasn't clear where he was trying to go.

Edited March 27, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Anne Elk]

 

Can anyone offer any thoughts on exactly what Gabriel was trying to get out in the last scene? I understood that Philip was rejecting his "love" that was all words and never actual caring, but what was Gabriel trying to get Philip to with the marriage vs. love and story about Elizabeth choosing him? There had to be some manipulation going on and I wasn't clear where he was trying to go.

 

On the surface it would seem that he was trying to get Phillip recommitted to Elizabeth by emphasizing their love for each other. But it sure sounded phony, like something Phillip would never believe. Maybe he was obviously lying, trying to find out just how willing Phillip was to reject Liz (and by extension the KGB)? Liz's going to Gabriel with her request about Mishka showed that she was willing to defy the KGB if it was to Phillip's benefit; maybe now Gabriel is scoping out Phillip's feelings. From the KGB's point of view, Phil & Liz need to be committed to the cause, not committed to each other. Anything else would be a threat to the mission.

 

I'll admit, I'm having a hard time figuring out what game Gabriel is playing here. But I keep thinking of what Stan said about undercover work being all about telling people what they want to hear.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Anne Elk

[Umbelina]

Yeah, but Gabriel isn't undercover to Philip or Elizabeth, or anyone that we've seen.  He's basically the boss, their handler.  Much as Elizabeth is handling Hans really. 

 

I thought Gab was thrown last week when Liz asked him to get Misha out, so he's trying a different tact with Philip now, working on the "love" angle.  It seems Gab's superiors have given him pretty strict orders to get the second generation spy in place, and he's doing whatever he can to do that.  Philip basically just called him on it.  Kind of risky really...but I guess Philip could take Gabriel out just about as well as Gab could do it to him, so?  Standoff?

[RedHawk]

Plus, at least at times, it's seemed somewhat unclear if Philip & Elizabeth themselves ever actually went through a legal marriage ceremony.

Philip and Elizabeth had a conversation after Clark and Martha's wedding that I felt pretty clearly told us they never went through a marriage ceremony.

[Anne Elk]

Gabriel is a smart handler; ergo, he's working Phil & Liz. Maybe not as hard as they're working Martha and Northrup lady, but his job is to do what it takes to get the mission accomplished.

 

I think the previous plan was for Gabriel to work them by being a confidante and friend. Maybe he really does love them, but even if he doesn't, he's got to nurture that relationship to keep them close. But his number one allegiance has to be to the mission, not them personally. So who knows? 

 

Maybe Gabriel is thinking that from the point of view of doing what the KGB wants, a Phillip who is increasingly committed to Elizabeth is a better bet than a Phillip who doesn't trust anyone. But after that subtle threat about Mishka, Phillip at least doesn't seem to be buying it, and I think Elizabeth's faith has been shaken as well.

[Boundary]

We've kind of had a sanitized version of spies and there actions before, or a fully action version, in a way, this show really is breaking new ground.  We get to know the victims before they die, and we see the conflicts, so it is harder to take, but also, in a strange way, important to see.

 

Oh Elizabeth's internal conflict was there and was so interesting for me to see. She didn't want to kill the old woman, she came to Philip and argued the case for her but Philip simply said the old woman picked the wrong night to come to the office. Elizabeth's demeanour throughout the whole thing was that she wasn't happy with this whole situation but she did what she had to do. Watch carefully Keri Russell's acting throughout the whole thing, she's playing a killer but she didn't portray a cold hearted murderer in this - I might be splitting hairs here but the point stands. Add that to last week's decision to support Philip's decision to spare Todd's life, I have to wonder what's happening to our two assassins.

 

Last season Philip got progressively unhappy  with killing bystanders, it seems this season it's Elizabeth's turn to deal with this. What I'm getting though is that Philip and Elizabeth have gone all in regarding their profession but it doesn't mean they like it. It's so subtle but I think this, more than anything, is what'll make them defect - eventually. With their kids becoming adults, justifying the killings (they don't really believe in) becomes more and more difficult. The show is not yet deliberately asking the question, but the seeds are there. Is fatigue setting in? Is being parents becoming priority number 1? If they can't fess up to Paige (when the time comes) about their body count, can they look at themselves in the mirror? Philip doesn't trust Gabriel and has all but lost faith in the fight, he's doing all this for Elizabeth. But is Elizabeth following the same path now? Fascinating. Again, one of the best tv shows around.

[Anela]

I can't believe Martha's going along with this. Is she crazy? Is she afraid and trying the best way to preserve her safety? She didn't seem to be afraid, but she could be acting. She knows the marriage is a sham but wants to keep it going anyway? I don't know if I buy it. She knows nothing about him at all, he could turn on her at any moment. I'd believe her doing this to save her own life somehow, but to actually want this to continue is strange to me.

 

I bought her choosing to believe him in that exact moment last week, when he was trying to calm her down, but given any time to think it over, I would think she'd be in a constant state of terror from him, especially because now she knows the deal is she has to give him information when they see each other. I don't know how they can still even pretend to be having a real relationship, even if he does have some feelings for her.

I wondered, as well. I'm sure that she's terrified of what he might do to her, and I liked that she clearly put an end to any potential adoptions, in front of him. I don't understand her telling him about her boss, and hoped that it was a trick, and they intend for bad information to be heard. I guess not, though.

[lucindabelle]

Nope. The boomers certainly clung to their youth but until JFK and then again until Obama most presidents of this country was well over 50 ( didn't check them all but it's also true for washington and lincoln) as were most CEOs. It is not now and never has been "old." Mandatory retirement is 65, senior citizen 62. My other point is that 40 years ago is so within living memory it just isn't talked about the way it was in that scene. I was at a play tonight where there was a scene set in 1975, the jokes about gas lines and consciousness raising groups got knowing laughs, not reverent sighs.

The boomers may see 50 as "young" rather than middle aged but it has never been old. Not even 60. Carter was in his 50s when he was elected. Ford was 60 when he took over for Nixon, who was 60 when he stepped down. At 70, Regan was older. But 50-65 was then and still is the age of most of the leaders of business and industry. The head of the cia today is 60. Etc etc.

Personally I think when people say age now I different than it was then, what they are really observing is that they know more about age now. Because it just isn't true that it's a new thing that people that age run the world.

Also in terms of dressing young, my parents were in their 50s when I was in college, and while they didn't dress like me, mom was no golden girl. So I don't see that as new either.

Edited March 27, 2015 by lucindabelle

[Bannon]

For me this plot thread works because (as with most of this show) it's more focused on characters and relationships than actual spycraft. I find Nina fascinating, and I could believe that Stan (to a certain degree) would work with Oleg to try to ensure her safety. But no matter what happens from there, I am most fascinated and entertained by watching Oleg and Stan navigate a kind of weird forced companionship. The tragedy of "The Americans" is that all of these people removed from their political ideologies would like or even love each other as individuals. Their patriotism could be seen as what is best and worst about each of them.

When characters, especially major characters, behave in a way that is too stupid for me to find credible, then character driven drama fails for me. 

Edited March 27, 2015 by Bannon

[heisey]

Just wanted to mention that The Americans is not the only show to give homage to "electric sheep" in an episode title.  An episode of Fringe was titled "Do Shapeshifters Dream of Electric Sheep?"

 

FWIW, my father was born in 1905 and served in the armed forces during WWII, when he was in his late 30s and early 40s.  He was not sent overseas, however.  He would have been in his late 70s at the time this episode takes place.  So it's not unrealistic that Betty (and her late husband, if he was still living) could be in their late 60s in 1983.

[lucindabelle]

Ok but liberating a camp? Not so much.

But good to know. I still think it was just manipulative and contrived, however.

[dalek]

My mother's cousin Ike enlisted when the U.S. got involved in WWII.  He was 40.  He was an infantry sgt.  We're Jewish.  His goal in joining the army was "get gun, kill Nazis."  And he did serve overseas in the European theater.  Didn't liberate any camps.

[txhorns79]

Ok but liberating a camp? Not so much.

 

Why?  I'm just not following why the idea that a soldier in their late 30s or early 40s had some involvement in liberating a concentration camp during WW2 is all that unbelievable.           

[RedHawk]

So much of the scene of Betty's death resonated with Elizabeth whose own mother is dying. Elizabeth the unbeliever in God, angels, afterlife, etc. gave Betty comfort. Yes, your husband is there waiting for you. No, his other wife is not with him. She was not only crying for Betty but for her own mother.

[BetyBee]

I find it hard to believe that Martha made such a complete turnaround.  I'm not ready to believe that she confessed to Taffet and Gaad yet, but I could believe that she thought things over and decided to play along just to save her life.  It would be far more interesting if she's playing a long con on Phillip, but I don't think she's capable of that.  We'll see! 

 

I hope Elizabeth develops some self awareness and realizes that she is an evil person and that she isn't making the world a better place.  The one way she could make the world a better place is by not selling out her daughter.  I wonder if she let Todd go as a test for Hans, so that he would go kill him and prove his worth?  We certainly know that she would not let him go out of the goodness of her heart. 

[JennyMominFL]

re

Why?  I'm just not following why the idea that a soldier in their late 30s or early 40s had some involvement in liberating a concentration camp during WW2 is all that unbelievable.           

I don't get it either. It's not like special units liberated camps. As troops moved westward they came across camps in  liberated them. For example,  Buchenwald was liberated  by the 89th Infantry Division. Now the name Infantry should not fool anyone, that does not mean the only people  there were infantry. They would have been support with them. Medics,  Cooks, Artillary disposal. Admin, Motor T etc.  I was in the Marines and was part of 1st Supply battalion but my MOS was not supply and that Supply battalion had lots of non-Supply Marines with them   

[sistermagpie]

Last season Philip got progressively unhappy  with killing bystanders, it seems this season it's Elizabeth's turn to deal with this. What I'm getting though is that Philip and Elizabeth have gone all in regarding their profession but it doesn't mean they like it.

 

 

Yes, and in different ways. Philip cares about killing random people, assuming that they all have lives they want to live. If somebody's just doing his job, he feels he's done evil killing them. With Elizabeth she finally met an American who wasn't betraying their country who yet somehow managed to remind her of her mother, and that freaked her out. I think it's interesting that she went to Philip to tell him about the woman. I don't think she exactly wanted him to tell her not to kill her--she probably knew in her heart that now that she'd decided to have a chat with the woman that was impossible. But I think she instinctively figured Philip was the person who would understand how she felt--and he did. It's not like he brushed her off, he just gently said she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. She needed the push and he gave it to her.

 

I wonder if she let Todd go as a test for Hans, so that he would go kill him and prove his worth?

 

 

I've heard this theory and it just doesn't work for me. If Elizabeth thought Hans should kill Todd I think she'd have told him that. Why risk things with hints and not even giving him a plan for killing him? This isn't a gang where people have to prove themselves by killing. Plus Hans also proved that he didn't follow orders--why would that be a good thing?

 

Maybe Gabriel is thinking that from the point of view of doing what the KGB wants, a Phillip who is increasingly committed to Elizabeth is a better bet than a Phillip who doesn't trust anyone. But after that subtle threat about Mishka, Phillip at least doesn't seem to be buying it, and I think Elizabeth's faith has been shaken as well.

 

 

Yeah, it seems like he definitely thought that Philip needed to hear he was loved by Gabriel and Elizabeth, that he wasn't alone. I assume this had to be inspired by Elizabeth coming to him with the request about Mischa Jr., who was also a way to make him feel a family connection to the cause. Maybe he thought by telling him Elizabeth chose him he'd feel less resentful of the whole enterprise, like Elizabeth had always cared about him? Interesting that he didn't tell him about Elizabeth's request or say he was doing anything about it. He's still obviously holding onto info and trying to keep them separated. I guess he might now figure that the best way to get Philip to make that step is to hold up Elizabeth as an example--she loves him and Paige and she thinks it's a great idea. Or something. Still not quite sure what he was thinking. Maybe that if Philip didn't tend to his marriage by getting in line his love would mean nothing? 

 

He told him marriage was a perpetual battle (his claims about the origin of wedlock are apparently a lie, btw--of course it has nothing to do with battle. It basically means to take a pledge) after Elizabeth did something nice for him. 

[Clanstarling]

Philip and Elizabeth had a conversation after Clark and Martha's wedding that I felt pretty clearly told us they never went through a marriage ceremony.

There are marriages performed simply by signing papers (no ceremony) - my own parents were married that way. But I don't really think it matters - if nothing else, they've been together long enough to have a common law marriage.

 

Ok but liberating a camp? Not so much.

But good to know. I still think it was just manipulative and contrived, however.

As a mechanic, Betty's husband would have traveled with the army to support their vehicles. Perhaps not personally liberating the camp, but certainly as part of the team that did. I think we today have a tendency to view war as something being fought only by young men. Which is mostly true for the "recent" wars (not counting the career soldiers). But WWII was an entirely different war. Droves of men, old and young, enlisted. The army did not necessarily keep older men stateside.

 

I've listened to my mother (who lived through WWII in Austria, and was 17 at the end of it) talk about the war years in the same distant fashion as Betty did in the episode - even before the 80's. So I had no issues with the way that was written or played.

I won't deny the scene was manipulative. I'm not so sure I agree with contrived. Personally, I liked the reality check to Elizabeth, and who better to lay it on her than someone she could relate to.

As for Martha and Clark - I spent the first part of that scene thinking she was going to drug him with the wine or the food. That was a VERY small sip she took of the wine. I thought she was playing him. I agree with Heisey, it sounded a lot like the coded calls Philip and Elizabeth get. They've already shown she's a pretty good liar. On the other hand, maybe I wanted to think she was playing him, because I like Martha and I'd hate for her to turn traitor for a man she's already given up so much for.

Edited March 27, 2015 by clanstarling

[Dev F]

Yeah, it seems like he definitely thought that Philip needed to hear he was loved by Gabriel and Elizabeth, that he wasn't alone. I assume this had to be inspired by Elizabeth coming to him with the request about Mischa Jr., who was also a way to make him feel a family connection to the cause. Maybe he thought by telling him Elizabeth chose him he'd feel less resentful of the whole enterprise, like Elizabeth had always cared about him? Interesting that he didn't tell him about Elizabeth's request or say he was doing anything about it. He's still obviously holding onto info and trying to keep them separated. I guess he might now figure that the best way to get Philip to make that step is to hold up Elizabeth as an example--she loves him and Paige and she thinks it's a great idea. Or something. Still not quite sure what he was thinking. Maybe that if Philip didn't tend to his marriage by getting in line his love would mean nothing?

 

I think Gabriel's comment was a very shrewd double-edged sword. On the one hand, he's reassuring Phillip: Elizabeth always loved you in her own way. But at the same time he's deflating Phillip's romantic ideas about the new state of his marriage: Elizabeth always loved you -- what's happening now isn't anything special or different. "Elizabeth loves you. I love you," he says, as if that's the same thing, as if it's all part of the normal way spies get along with other spies.

 

Or, to paraphrase another character in the episode, You don't want a new heart. What would you do with it?

Edited March 27, 2015 by Dev F

[sistermagpie]

I think Gabriel's comment was a very shrewd double-edged sword. On the one hand, he's reassuring Phillip: Elizabeth always loved you in her own way. But at the same time he's deflating Phillip's romantic ideas about the new state of his marriage: Elizabeth always loved you -- what's happening now isn't anything special or different.

 

 

Interesting--especially since Philip rejects the idea. I keep thinking about Gabriel saying Philip's life now must be "confusing" and Philip saying he's not confused. He knows Gabriel's trying to make him doubt his emotions about Elizabeth and his family and Philip knows he's not. He also, I think, is not buying any suggestion that Elizabeth always loved him. She was too straightforward and honest about not loving him for years.

 

It would be interesting if Philip asked Elizabeth about it. If he did she would probably have some explanation for why she did it. I was talking about this elsewhere because for Philip, his lightning bolt speech fits the pattern of him always wanting his cover to be real. Before going into that room to meet E he tore up Irina's picture and he knew he was meeting his future wife. He'd have good reason to be open to lightning bolts--and to remember himself feeling one. For E it seems not at all what we saw.

 

But maybe it is. Elizabeth's life has always belonged to the Centre but she's also always needed some illusion of control. She didn't want kids. She had them because it was an order. Yet it was she who decided to have Paige, not letting Philip touch her before that, and she held off telling him about Henry to tell herself she could have an abortion if she wanted. Maybe this was the same thing. She needed to reject somebody to give herself the illusion of choice. It's different than choosing Philip--she didn't want him either, but she chose him.

 

I thought she was playing him. I agree with Heisey, it sounded a lot like the coded calls Philip and Elizabeth get.

 

 

The more I think about it, the less it actually does sound like a coded phone call to me. Their phone calls are basically spam. Why would Martha tell the FBI about her foster care plans as a code? I think the code was that she was talking to Clark more than the agency. She was telling him she was giving up on the adoption.

[Haleth]

I'm one of those having trouble continuing with this season. Elizabeth infuriates me no end. (Philip isn't much better but he does have some self awareness.) Did Elizabeth have compassion for Betty? A couple weeks ago she coldly killed a man under his car. I find it hard to believe she has suddenly found empathy. I want her to get caught before she can inflict any more damage on her children or other innocent people in her path.

I really, really hope Martha is playing Clark even if it seems highly unlikely. I'm not much of a Stan fan but I don't want his working with Oleg to lead Mr Taffett to believe he is the source of the bug. Poor Stan can't catch a break.

RIP Betty. That was a wonderful performance.

[Umbelina]

If Martha started to spill information?  She would tell them everything, including Clark's shirt size, and what kind of ceremony they had, what they usually had for dinner, and most certainly about the adoption.  "Who normally calls you, or are there any phone calls you are expecting?  We need to check on you when he arrives, to protect you.  So it's important the phone call seems normal."  etc etc.

 

Now I'm really hoping this is true, because it will be very cool, and very logical to me.  It's certainly what I would have done in Martha's shoes.  ;)

 

Don't you hate it when you make a "there/their" typo and then it is quoted?  <cringe> and sorry about that.

 

Haleth, go read a couple of the reviews I posted in the media thread, I think they way this show makes us think, instead of the normal spy shows with the distant or random kills is wonderful.

 

Also, Stan is betraying his oath and his country by colluding with a KGB agent for his own goals.  I don't feel sorry for him anymore. At all.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Umbelina

[dr pepper]

Just in case anyone here has *not* owned a computer, or other piece of electronics that uses a built in power supply: those things are noisy! It's the fan. Brand new it whooshes, as it ages it starts to buzz and eventually it clatters. It's the last part of the machine that anyone would want to put a bug in.

[sistermagpie]

Did Elizabeth have compassion for Betty? A couple weeks ago she coldly killed a man under his car. I find it hard to believe she has suddenly found empathy.

 

 

I don't think she found compassion, it was just that Betty, by accident (well, really by design) hit a bunch of buttons for Elizabeth that made her see/need Betty differently than most of her victims. So she related to her differently and suddenly it mattered that she was killing her and she wanted absolution and approval for it n ways she doesn't usually.

 

If Martha started to spill information?  She would tell them everything, including Clark's shirt size, and what kind of ceremony they had, what they usually had for dinner, and most certainly about the adoption.  "Who normally calls you, or are there any phone calls you are expecting?  We need to check on you when he arrives, to protect you.  So it's important the phone call seems normal."  etc etc.

 

 

Yes, but that's my point. It's not a normal conversation. It's an unusual one that calls Clark's attention to it and is mostly about Martha communicating with him.

 

Plus, I still don't see how it's not basically ending the whole series. Clark's blown. Philip's blown. But the FBI is helpfully letting it play out without the audience knowing (and having reason to not tell Stan so he can also play along)--or later with the audience knowing --so we can get a couple more seasons out of it? Gaad and Aderholdt even helpfully aren't having exciting conversations about it this week on camera despite it being the single most important thing to ever have happened at the FBI since we've met them. They're letting the Jennings go on but if the audience knows about it there's less tension because they're already blown so there's no question of them being caught. Or is the FBI so incompetent that they'll somehow manage to have Martha telling them when and where to catch an Illegal and they somehow mention to never trace him to Philip Jennings? Or does it just say secret so all of Clark/Martha's emotional scenes are just lies?

 

ETA: I reserve the right to take this all back if they are doing exactly this and it turns out that it's brilliant, of course!

Edited March 27, 2015 by sistermagpie

[terrymct]

Once again it's becoming clear that the writers were not around in 1983. My dad served in WWII. In 1983 he was in his early 50s, not by any stretch of the i agitation an old man. The oldest someone could be who had served in that war in 983 was in his sixties. Don't know how old the actress is but it's just weird to me. Most of the WWII vets in the early 80s were active heads off business and politics.

 

Older men did not serve four years overseas. Unless they were generals. I'm the daughter of a vet and niece of many and I just don't buy it. If you have an example of a man in his forties who liberated a camp overseas, tell me.

 

I asked my father about this last night.  He's a WW2 veteran.  He said that it was common for older men to enlist, especially in the earlier years of the war.  If they'd served previously that they might come in at a rank or in a position related to their past service.  He said that older guys did go through boot camp with the younger ones.   He reminded me of the scene at the beginning of Saving Private Ryan where the men are in a landing craft heading toward the beach at Normandy and one of the grunts is an old guy.  He said there was reality behind that.  Old guys did "hit the beach" and we're just the senior level officers.

 

On another subject, the scene between Betty and Elizabeth was fantastic.   Betty and her husband were the kind of salt of the Earth person that Elizabeth sees as making up the USSR.  Decent, hardworking, service to country.   Betty held a mirror up to Elizabeth and forced her to see the grey areas in Elizabeth's black and white world view.

Edited March 27, 2015 by terrymct

[Umbelina]

Plus, I still don't see how it's not basically ending the whole series. Clark's blown. Philip's blown. But the FBI is helpfully letting it play out without the audience knowing (and having reason to not tell Stan so he can also play along)--or later with the audience knowing --so we can get a couple more seasons out of it? Gaad and Aderholdt even helpfully aren't having exciting conversations about it this week on camera despite it being the single most important thing to ever have happened at the FBI since we've met them. They're letting the Jennings go on but if the audience knows about it there's less tension because they're already blown so there's no question of them being caught. Or is the FBI so incompetent that they'll somehow manage to have Martha telling them when and where to catch an Illegal and they somehow mention to never trace him to Philip Jennings? Or does it just say secret so all of Clark/Martha's emotional scenes are just lies?

 

 

I think good writers can do anything. 

 

Remember when Alias just suddenly ELIMINATED SD-6 in season 2?  Everyone was "whoa, WTH?"  But it worked.

 

Also, there is the chance of Philip turning, but not Elizabeth, in exchange for his daughter's safety.  More than that though, Philip could still just get away.  The FBI, if this idea is happening, is playing it pretty close to the vest, they certainly aren't cluing in the very suspicious acting Stan.  So only a couple of them know, and furthermore, ONE of those who knows may be a KGB mole (Aderholt is leading the pack there, but who knows?)  So you eliminate those in the know and Philip and Elizabeth continue on their merry way, with Martha dead, probably Gaad dead, and things won't look good for Taffet either.

 

Anyway, it just makes more sense to me than Martha la-di-da "it's OK that you are against my country, I LUV YOU!"

[SlackerInc]

Amazingly polarizing episode.  I'm one of those that thinks it was one of the best episodes of the series, and one of the best episodes of any series.  And I'm not just an unwavering fanboy for this show: I was scathingly critical of the Jared reveal in last year's finale, for instance.

 

In the Martha storyline, I was not expecting it to go the way I did, but I absolutely feel they sold it.  Think about all the people who stay in abusive relationships.  They wouldn't in most cases if it started that way, but once they are "on the hook" they can't break away--and it's not always, or even usually, out of fear, necessarily.  I absolutely do not believe Martha is secretly playing Philip, and if that turns out to be true it will be another curveball misstep like Jared.

 

I want to know when they are going to teach Martha how to pass a polygraph.  I would think they would be doing that pronto.

[snip]

What was that look that Gaad gave the new guy when Stan left the room? Did he have doubt the incident went down the way Stan claimed or was he concerned about Stan's competence?  

 

 

I was thinking the same about the polygraph--and it would be great if Oleg and Philip got the same training, and he tells her to "squeeze her anus", LOL.

 

On that look between Gaad and Aderholt, I think it was wonderfully ambiguous.  They cut away quickly enough so we wouldn't be able to tell what it meant.

 

I loved Clark's pointed, "Who's Gene?" question, showing that they were now going to speak to each other differently, with him being more of his real self and Martha seeing that.

 

That really was a great little detail.

 

I understand Elizabeth engaging with Betty was a plot device, but it seems unlikely that Elizabeth would just walk right into a room where she knows there could be someone that might over power her, and blow the mission.  Why not wait to see if whoever turned the light on would come downstairs?  Then it would be at least Elizabeth & Phillip against whoever it was.   

 

She didn't just walk right in: she peeked around the corner, holding her gun at the ready, then when she saw who it was she put the gun away.  That was done before we (the audience) saw, so it was curious, like it was going to turn out to be someone else from the KGB or something.  As far as just waiting to see if the person turning on the light came downstairs, what if Betty hadn't come down but had heard something and just called the cops?

 

Philip (as "Clark") & Martha had a ceremony, yes. But after the ceremony the license & whatever else makes it legal had to be filed with the city. Philip/Clark told Martha he'd take care of it & either she gave it to him, no questions asked, or he just took it (I forget which). And then he *never* actually filed it; he never had any intention of doing so.

 

I always assumed the same thing.  But the showrunners in their podcast this week referred to Clark and Martha's as the "real" marriage (implying only Philip and Elizabeth's was fake).  Strange, I would agree.

 

I think they're more interesting if they're as we see them. If Martha's working Clark and we don't see it, there's no suspense either way in that direction. If she's working Clark and we see it next week it's a total rewrite of everything we've seen at the office so far. Also the FBI is responsible for the murder of Betty since she died in a break-in they set up. Philip and Elizabeth ought to be already blown completely so surely they shouldn't be able to continue the Kimmie arc. 

 

I think the phone call works better as the emotional beat it was supposed to be--Martha's dropping her illusions about her marriage to Clark and trying to deal with the man she thinks she knows now.

 

Yes, all of this--cosigned.

 

FWIW, my father was born in 1905 and served in the armed forces during WWII, when he was in his late 30s and early 40s.  He was not sent overseas, however.  He would have been in his late 70s at the time this episode takes place.  So it's not unrealistic that Betty (and her late husband, if he was still living) could be in their late 60s in 1983.

 

Agreed.  My grandfather was born in 1903 and served in the Air Force (then actually the "Army Air Force") in the U.K. for the duration.

I do have one nitpick about this episode: would a woman Betty's age really be eligible for a heart transplant?  I tend to think she should not be, even if that sounds cold.

[sistermagpie]

Anyway, it just makes more sense to me than Martha la-di-da "it's OK that you are against my country, I LUV YOU!"

 

 

I don't think that was her attitude either way. She's trying out holding on to the one real thing that she thinks is true, that Clark and she love each other and they can get through this. She doesn't have to know that he's against her country, or at least how he is, just yet. She's got years of increasing denial under her belt here. She's accepting a lot about Clark already--it wasn't a true surprise when it all blew up. But all along she's chosen him. That doesn't mean she's fully on board with his plans, but she can be trying out loving what she thinks is the real guy. His honesty brought them together for now. She's in a different stage of denial and seeing if she can stay there.

 

I always assumed the same thing.  But the showrunners in their podcast this week referred to Clark and Martha's as the "real" marriage (implying only Philip and Elizabeth's was fake).  Strange, I would agree.

 

 

I thought they just meant that the two of them had a marriage ceremony. It actually always drives me crazy when they refer to Clark/Martha as a real marriage because whatever the legal technicalities (and legally I'm sure they're no more married than Philip and Elizabeth despite the ceremony) I don't see how anybody can keep saying "this is a real marriage!" when Clark's a persona made up only to keep Martha pacified and doing what he wants. Yes, he's grown to care about her somewhat--Philip probably thinks he loves Martha more genuinely than Gabriel loves him, for instance, because he cares about her well-being. But while fighting over hair in the sink and home decorations and having children might have made the Jennings marriage the real thing that hardly applies to Clark/Martha who spend like one night a week together and where Clark is 0% invested in any discussion beyond keeping his cover and keeping Martha on track. That's not a marriage. He's never cared about her as his wife. He cares about her as a responsibility, as a person he's wronged, as a human being, not a wife. I suspect if he could choose an ending for Martha he'd want her happily married to someone else and raising kids.

 

What makes you think of Clark/Martha as the real marriage compared to Philip/Elizabeth?

[ahpny]

After Philip's defiant speech to Gabriel, it isn't out of the question that Elizabeth would still kill him herself to end the debate about Paige.

 

I didn’t understand Philip’s speech in the sense of why an extremely sophisticated and highly trained spy would betray such a fundamental emotional weakness to, and essentially an antipathy toward, the one person who’s best positioned to do him harm. Yes, Gabriel failed him in a very personal and duplicitous manner. But they’re both in the business of duplicity and personal betrayal. I get why Philip’s pissed – but not why did he broadcast his displeasure to Gabriel. Philip already knows he’s likely on Gabriel’s “watch list” and that Gabriel “likes” Elizabeth better. Why give Gabriel more ammunition to hurt him? The only answer I see is Philip lost control, and his emotions overtook his actions. But he’s trained to do just the opposite and we’ve seen him succeed very well elsewhere just about every time. Why this time was he unable to control his emotions, if indeed that’s the answer? Maybe he loves Paige more than anything else? The whole thing just didn't seem to fit.

[gwhh]

Martha gone into FULL denial mode.  Next stop fatal Attraction mode!  Rabbit stew anyone!