S05.E14: Spend

[kj4ever]

I was thinking about Deanna's job assignments, and she really might not read people as good as she thinks.  Maggie was always doing runs and had tons of experience.  Noah was (kind of) an assistant to Dawn at the hospital and was interested in learning and building the community.  He also had a bum leg, so he definitely shouldn't have been a first pick to do something that as Daryl told Herschel when he wanted to go to the Vet school, "When we're out there. It's always the same.  We end up running."

[Mu Shu]

It depends on who you think of as "one of our people." Jimmy, Patricia, Otis were all eaten by a pack.

And then dead Laurie was eaten by that one greedy one.    the swollen stomach was far grosser than Aidan or Noah's death, IMO, even if we didn't see it.   Still, they were a bit too much. 

[melanie]

The job assignments -- that was the other thing I wanted to comment on.  Thanks for the reminder kj4ever.  

 

Who is doing the gardening?  It seems to me that Rick might be more productive gardening or farming.  This constable thing just seems a little bit silly.  Since, as has been stated previously, there doesn't seem to be any justice system set up.  

 

Why isn't someone studying under Pete to be a nurse or something?  At least Herschel tried to teach others the medical skills that he had because it is important that more than one person be able to do the job.  That is except for the Grady doctor --  he didn't want anyone taking his place.  

 

It just seems that a lot of people in Alexandria seem to have a lot of spare time on their hands.  Building owl sculptures?  I can see that being a hobby, but not a job.  The kids seem to have no purpose either.  Video games and stalking Carol.  Why aren't they being trained or working on something.  I don't know, it just seems like Deanna hasn't gotten the job assignments straight.  If the doctor isn't seeing patients at any given moment, he should be helping in some other way instead of just being able to hang out and get drunk.  

 

I wish that Herschel had lived to see this place, I think he would do a better job than Deanna.  Everybody has a job -- wasn't that what he said?  

[kj4ever]

The job assignments -- that was the other thing I wanted to comment on.  Thanks for the reminder kj4ever.  

 

Who is doing the gardening?  It seems to me that Rick might be more productive gardening or farming.  This constable thing just seems a little bit silly.  Since, as has been stated previously, there doesn't seem to be any justice system set up.  

 

Why isn't someone studying under Pete to be a nurse or something?  At least Herschel tried to teach others the medical skills that he had because it is important that more than one person be able to do the job.  That is except for the Grady doctor --  he didn't want anyone taking his place.  

 

It just seems that a lot of people in Alexandria seem to have a lot of spare time on their hands.  Building owl sculptures?  I can see that being a hobby, but not a job.  The kids seem to have no purpose either.  Video games and stalking Carol.  Why aren't they being trained or working on something.  I don't know, it just seems like Deanna hasn't gotten the job assignments straight.  If the doctor isn't seeing patients at any given moment, he should be helping in some other way instead of just being able to hang out and get drunk.  

 

I wish that Herschel had lived to see this place, I think he would do a better job than Deanna.  Everybody has a job -- wasn't that what he said?  

I keep thinking they must at least have a garden somewhere?  Have they just been living on old canned goods all this time?  I mean I know if it was effectively evacuated they would have their pick for awhile, but if they wanted to be truly sustainable they would be producing their own food.

 

They also seem incredibly lazy.  Abe incredulously says "Do you think this will really take a whole month??" about building a new part of the wall.  The first sign of trouble and they were going to pack it in.  These people haven't been desperate for anything, and have no urgency.

 

I mean look at Carol's job.  Cook for people that don't know how?  For Mom's that need a break?  A break from what exactly, life?  I can see helping the elderly, but give me a freaking break.  Carol said in her interview that she gardened before.  Why wouldn't  they have her producing food?

 

Maybe we just haven't seen that part, but by looking at the ASZ 360 I don't see any crops of food growing...Deanna kind of sucks.

[tennisgurl]

That`s actually a good question. Why don't they have people learning new trades? Why is Jessie hanging out, building owls when she could be learning skills that could help her get away from whatever her domestic situation is?

 

Speaking of Pete, if more people learned medical skills, they wouldn't have to put up with Pete. I am working on an assumption here, but do they put up with Pete being abusive because he is their only doctor, and they want to keep him happy? I feel like someone there has to know whats going on. 

 

There`s a difference between trying to find normalcy, and just being lazy. 

Edited March 18, 2015 by tennisgurl

[Pete Martell]

I was thinking about Deanna's job assignments, and she really might not read people as good as she thinks.  Maggie was always doing runs and had tons of experience.  Noah was (kind of) an assistant to Dawn at the hospital and was interested in learning and building the community.  He also had a bum leg, so he definitely shouldn't have been a first pick to do something that as Daryl told Herschel when he wanted to go to the Vet school, "When we're out there. It's always the same.  We end up running."

 

I think a lot of her decision was probably based on Aiden wanting to be in charge. Noah and Tara are both low-key people who will go with the flow (as she likely also assumed Glenn was until he stood up to Aiden). Maggie is obviously a strong-willed person who wouldn't put up with a big ego.

 

If Aiden hadn't been such an idiot, her move would have been quite canny. Maggie clearly wanted to make Alexandria work under Deanna's leadership, and Maggie is at the heart of a wide swathe of people who had little to no strong ties or loyalty to Rick or Carol (Glenn, Rosita, Eugene, Tara, Noah, Abraham). That means when the inevitable crackup happened, Maggie, and the people close to her, would have been genuinely torn.

 

Unfortunately, Aiden was an idiot, and Maggie will likely have to choose between Glenn and Deanna. And it's no real surprise who she will choose.

 

Politicians never learn not to give relatives important jobs...

I keep thinking they must at least have a garden somewhere?  Have they just been living on old canned goods all this time?  I mean I know if it was effectively evacuated they would have their pick for awhile, but if they wanted to be truly sustainable they would be producing their own food.

 

They had fresh strawberries so they must garden.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Dodginblue]

The job assignments -- that was the other thing I wanted to comment on.  Thanks for the reminder kj4ever.  

 

Who is doing the gardening?  It seems to me that Rick might be more productive gardening or farming.  This constable thing just seems a little bit silly.  Since, as has been stated previously, there doesn't seem to be any justice system set up.  

 

Why isn't someone studying under Pete to be a nurse or something?  At least Herschel tried to teach others the medical skills that he had because it is important that more than one person be able to do the job.  That is except for the Grady doctor --  he didn't want anyone taking his place.  

 

It just seems that a lot of people in Alexandria seem to have a lot of spare time on their hands.  Building owl sculptures?  I can see that being a hobby, but not a job.  The kids seem to have no purpose either.  Video games and stalking Carol.  Why aren't they being trained or working on something.  I don't know, it just seems like Deanna hasn't gotten the job assignments straight.  If the doctor isn't seeing patients at any given moment, he should be helping in some other way instead of just being able to hang out and get drunk.  

 

I wish that Herschel had lived to see this place, I think he would do a better job than Deanna.  Everybody has a job -- wasn't that what he said?  

 

I think Deanna is too caught up in what was before, what people were before.  She's trying to create a continuity, a more or less seamless line forward from before to now to later that treats the ZA like this inconvenient bump in the road that can be navigated around with few problems.  We don't know what everybody was doing before but we have a pretty good idea of who they are now.  She doesn't, though, she just seems to think that whatever people did after the ZA started was just necessity and there's nothing to learn from that about what they can do now.  Or should be doing now.  

[The Mighty Peanut]

^I agree totally. She thinks it's enough to install protectors to maintain a facade of normality. Make them feel like they have a say in the goings-on and reap the benefits in the form of successful supply runs and an emergency militia, like they're the fucking National Guard. She won't let them do anything that's actually empowering, though. Forgive me yet another moment of armchair ZA coaching but there shouldn't have been any sort of run until CDB ran a survival boot camp for the away teams and a general how-to seminar for EVERYONE.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Some more general impressions from Spend, and the ASZ arc overall:

 

Rick (& Michonne) has the cushiest job ever.  All he does is walk the town w/ a gun on his hip.  He doesn't even go on runs anymore.

 

The abuse storyline is predictable but fine... I just hope they do something more with it, instead of the old "he hits her".  Make it worse than that or something else besides just the normal physical abuse.  Not that I am rooting for a woman being beaten, but surprise me a little bit.

 

They probably really should have shot Aiden in the head, instead of letting him live through getting torn apart and eaten alive.  Yes, he was a douche on that first 'run', but we all knew the CDB group wouldn't let that walker bite or eat anyone.  Yes, he did stupidly waste ammo in trying to shoot the helmeted walker and shot the grenade, but that wasn't done maliciously to harm any of their group.  However.... maybe its smart to not 'mercy kill' someone in that type of situation.  How long does it take the walkers to realize their 'prey' is dead and no longer eatable?  Or do they eat as long as the kill is "still warm"?

 

Did I mishear or misinterpret the scene that was just before the last Rick/Carol one, the one that led into the end credits?  I can't remember if it was Deanna or someone else, but it sounded like someone started yelling about the group coming back, and the chaos it would cause.  And if I have that interpretation right, where is Rick/CDB's "house" in relation to Deanna's?  That very last scene was complete silence,  at least in terms of stuff from outside the house.

 

Assuming Abraham survives past this season's finale - and CDB (+ some Alexandrians) aren't running away from ASZ - I wonder if something will develop between Abe & the crane lady he protected [what was her name?].  I know his opening scene strongly implies that him & Rosita are still sleeping together, but his little scene with Michonne last week and now the "battle tested companionship" with this lady....  IDK, he just seems to be somewhat 'exploring other possibilities', just a bit.  And we've been shown that Rosita/Abe have been maybe not quite "as tight" as they were the pre-Eugene beatdown.

 

I like how ambiguous they are keeping Deanna.  Is she for real?  Is she like Dawn or the Governor, maybe a combination of both??  Really interested in her (& Reg's) reaction to Aiden dying.   And how that impacts her 'relationship' with Maggie, seeing as Glenn was on that run and Glenn is Mags' hubby.  I can see an "are you with me, or him/them?" situation coming from that. 

Edited March 19, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[lawless]

Some of the job assignments seem to concern necessary things, but some of the assignments just seem to be busy work, and they all seem to have plenty of leisure time.  Rick should be head of security inside and out of the walls, not a wandering constable breaking up fights (that don't seem to exist at this point) and investigating the destruction of sculptures.  As you guys have astutely pointed out, a lot more people should be gardening -- in fact, they should be farming, and keeping chickens to provide eggs, and perhaps rabbits, so they don't have to hunt them.  Deanna has some smarts, but neither she nor anyone there seem to really understand what the nuts and bolts of long term survival will require of them, both in terms of food production and security.  

 

I wonder if part of the reason they need people now is because before, they didn't really have problems maintaining the power or obtaining food, but now, with the passage of time, things are finally starting to break down.  Maybe only recently the supplies they laid in with are starting to dwindle or malfunction, and maybe they've only had to venture out on runs lately.  That could also explain how inept Aidan and crew are -- they've spent most of the apocalypse inside the walls, and have only recently been forced to venture out.  After all, while there is a construction crew, other than the wall/fence itself, it doesn't look like is any construction in town.  The estimate for completing the job did seem very long, given that they have nothing else to do.  It's like they're mostly been reading a lot of books, watching movies, and playing video games most of the time.  Aaron is a recruiter and hunts rabbits, but I wonder how long that has been happening too.

[Raven1707]

I've always thought Rick would give up leadership if he felt whoever was leading was capable; so that may be coming into play.

 

He already has proven that he would back at the prison, when he handed over leadership decisions to the council.

 

I keep seeing folks calling Deanna's statement to Maggie about backing up her own people a "threat" - but I don't think that's what it was. Rather, this is another step in part of Deanna's Grand Scheme - this step being Assimilation. Deanna's short-term goal is for there to be no more ASZ+CDB; she wants one big happy smiling bunch of ASZhats. Thus the scattered jobs - with the exception of Rick and Michonne, no to CDBers appear to be working together.

 

Uh...Glenn, Noah, Tara, and Eugene all went on the run for the solar micro-inverter.

[SoSueMe]

Both Pete and Jessie have made mention of having to give up things (?) after the ZA  wonder what those things (people, objects, positions, possessions) will turn out to be.

[Nashville]

He already has proven that he would back at the prison, when he handed over leadership decisions to the council.

 

 

Uh...Glenn, Noah, Tara, and Eugene all went on the run for the solar micro-inverter.

 

You're right, I mentally skipped that collection - although:

1. Eugene's participation on the last run was a special case, to be sure they got the correct electronic equipment.
2. I can't shake the feeling the run crews are the what-the-hell-ELSE-can-we-do-with-them job - the catchall for somebody you can't think to place anywhere else. 
3. #2 may also explain the high mortality rate of run crews.

 

Both Pete and Jessie have made mention of having to give up things (?) after the ZA  wonder what those things (people, objects, positions, possessions) will turn out to be.

 

Cable?  The Twin Peaks redux?  Pedicures?  Oh, the horror.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Nashville

[Dodginblue]

Both Pete and Jessie have made mention of having to give up things (?) after the ZA  wonder what those things (people, objects, positions, possessions) will turn out to be.

 

Some things I'd think just about everyone has in common and so won't really count as losses that will arouse much sympathy. Not knowing what's happened to family, that sort of thing. I also think that two years into the ZA is too long to still be thinking about what you've lost from before.  That way lies madness.

 

I get the impression that Rick and his group don't spend too much time thinking about before at this point.  Maybe because they have recent losses to contend with.    

[Dodginblue]

You're right, I mentally skipped that collection - although:

1. Eugene's participation on the last run was a special case, to be sure they got the correct electronic equipment.
2. I can't shake the feeling the run crews are the what-the-hell-ELSE-can-we-do-with-them job - the catchall for somebody you can't think to place anywhere else. 
3. #2 may also explain the high mortality rate of run crews.

 

 

 

 

I don't know if the show is going to go this way but I wonder if Deanna is going to feel/show any guilt for putting Aiden on the supply run job. And not just put him on that but have him be the leader of it.   I get why he would want to do it, especially because he had his running buddy Nicholas with him.  They get to go outside, carry guns, pretend they're Seal Team 6 or something and know that if it gets dicey they'll cut and run and back up each other's story.   Probably a lot more fun than helping to build the wall or picking strawberries.   

[editorgrrl]

Did I mishear or misinterpret the scene that was just before the last Rick/Carol one, the one that led into the end credits? Someone started yelling about the group coming back, and the chaos it would cause. And if I have that interpretation right, where is "Rick"'s house in relation to Deanna's? That very last scene was complete silence, at least in terms of stuff from outside the house.

According to the 360° interactive tour of Alexandria, the Monroes live much closer to the gates than do CDB: http://www.amctv.com/shows/the-walking-dead/alexandria-tour

Edited March 18, 2015 by editorgrrl

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

According to the 360° interactive tour of Alexandria, the Monroes live much closer to the gates than do CDB: http://www.amctv.com/shows/the-walking-dead/alexandria-tour

 

Thanks.  I figured that had to be the case, just wasn't sure.

[AndySmith]

I'm not sure I get the Team Rick vs. Team Deanna stuff

 

I'm not sure either. A bit early to be dividing people up in teams. And would Maggie and Glenn side with Deanna so quickly? That would be going against the "family". They (and pretty much everyone else in Rick's group) know just how incompetent the ASZ crew are. Depending on how it would play, I could see them supporting Rick very easily.

[lawless]

I don't see Glen siding with the Alexandrians after what just happened, if it comes to picking sides. I think Maggie is trying to make the new situation work, but I think she's being shrewd more than I think she's fallen under Alexandria's spell. She's working directly with Deanna and tries to gently assuage her concerns, and she has tried to smooth over potential conflicts and rough spots between Deanna and her own people. Her decision to just listen while Father Gabriel spewed his Satan stuff was smart and disciplined. I will be very curious to see what she does about that.

Edited March 18, 2015 by lawless

[queenanne]

The job assignments -- that was the other thing I wanted to comment on.  Thanks for the reminder kj4ever.  

 

Who is doing the gardening?  It seems to me that Rick might be more productive gardening or farming.  This constable thing just seems a little bit silly.  Since, as has been stated previously, there doesn't seem to be any justice system set up.  

 

Why isn't someone studying under Pete to be a nurse or something?  At least Herschel tried to teach others the medical skills that he had because it is important that more than one person be able to do the job.  That is except for the Grady doctor --  he didn't want anyone taking his place.  

 

Well, "the nurse" would thus logically have been Beth but - yanno.  I guess maybe it can/could be Maggie. 

 

But I see other opportunities that are also making me scratch my head and wonder if they will ever be addressed: they can mysteriously run and grab fresh still-drinkable beer (unlike whiskey, it has an expiration date and does not get better with age, lol); and will Kirkman ever address the fact that sooner or later "medicine runs" are also useless, as pharmaceuticals have expiration dates and likewise will not get better with age?  They need a new herbalist too.  Eventually they'll run out of useful pills-and-booze anaesthetic unless they make more.

[LadyMustang65]

It's going to take a while to go through all the messages, but I finally got to watch the episode last night.  I've probably got nothing new to say here, but I just had to vent about how angry I am with Father Gabriel.  Part of it is just the trope that characters of faith often turn out to be hypocrites and generally awful people.  And part of it is just that Father Gabriel is indeed an awful person, not at all indicative of a person of faith, especially a man of the cloth.  I can't figure out if he's just that stupid that he doesn't get Rick & Co. or if he's just so terrified of maybe ending up back "out there" again that he wants to get rid of Rick & Co. so the "good folks" of Alexandria never find out what a jerk he is (although it does seem from what we saw tonight that he is indeed a perfect candidate for Alexandria).  Rick & Co. literally saved his life twice - first when he was stuck on the rock and then when he left the church and couldn't get back in.  Both times they could have ignored his plight and left him to fend for himself.  But both times they put themselves at risk to save his sorry butt.  Then they took him in and have kept him alive all this time.  He watched them take in Noah and accept him as part of the group.  Did Father Gabriel not pay any attention whatsoever to what was going on while he was with our group?  Far from turning on each other or leaving anyone behind, once you are part of the group you are part of the group, and they will all put their lives on the line for each other.  And that's exactly what happened here as well.  Twice, in fact.  It was Glenn who insisted that they go for Aidan to bring him home while Aidan's "friend" wanted to just leave him behind.  It was Abraham who insisted on saving Francine when the others would have abandoned her.  Even though they are still feeling each other out and getting to know one another, as far as Rick & Co. are concerned anyway, the Alexandria-ites are now part of their group, and they will put their lives on the line for them.  How does Father Gabriel not get that?  He's seen them do it time and time again.  That just made me so angry, and I don't know why he's doing it.  But it would be poetic justice at this point if Rick & Co. end up leaving Alexandria and leaving Gabriel behind to get killed by the people who won't think twice about leaving him behind to save themselves.  And just because I need to say it, in what universe is anything that Rick & Co. have done to survive WORSE than locking your own congregation out of the church and leaving them to die?  Either Gabriel is just totally losing it or he's perhaps the most despicable character they've ever created on this show, and that includes the governor and the termites. 

[Samx]

The job assignments -- that was the other thing I wanted to comment on.  Thanks for the reminder kj4ever.  

 

It just seems that a lot of people in Alexandria seem to have a lot of spare time on their hands.  Building owl sculptures?  I can see that being a hobby, but not a job.  

 

Maybe one of the "12 other things" Jessie did was art. Perhaps she is the local sculptor/artist and displays her work in random places throughout the community. My town spends ridiculous amounts of money on terrible sculptures and places them in all the parks. Deanna is getting terrible art for free!

 

 

I really wish that Rick would at least address, as constable, a plan if someone dies inside the walls and turns.  That seems like it would be a better use of his time than looking for the sculpture vandal.

 

This. I can't believe Rick even entertained the thought of trying to find the sculpture vandal. Even Jessie was basically like "No, really, it's NBD." Granted I'm not a mother but wouldn't Jessie have some kind of idea that Sam can be destructive and maybe suspect that he did it? Do we think she knew it was Sam but didn't want to say anything? (I can't remember if Jessie specifically called Rick to report the vandalism or if he stumbled upon it). I could have done without the whole Jessie storyline this week and think Sam's potential abuse could have been discovered by Carol in a different way. 

[marceline]

 

Either Gabriel is just totally losing it or he's perhaps the most despicable character they've ever created on this show, and that includes the governor and the termites.

 

I think it's the former. I think he's the craziest person we've seen since Lizzie killed her sister. I fully expect a complete psychotic break with lots of ranting about religious imagery.

[LadyMustang65]

It appears Seth Gilliam is rapidly headed towards becoming the third Wire alumni to get tragically underused on the show. I'm in a minority of thinking Gabriel was potentially a very interesting character...the morally compromised man of faith, a coward and a pacifist, forced out of his safe haven and having to adjust to the brutal realities of the ZA. There's a lot you could do with that.

 

I'm in that minority with you.  I had high hopes that we would see something interesting with him, but alas it was not to be.  :(  Now I just hate his guts for what he's trying to do to our little family.  Ungrateful, back-stabbing jerk.

[morgankobi]

I've seen this question pop up before, but never really seen an answer. And since Noah and Deanna Jr. caused me to think of it, I'm gonna ask here.

Has it ever been addressed on the show (or even a spoiler-tagged answer from the comics), how there are so many walkers when they seem to destroy most people beyond re-animation? Noah and Aiden (?) are not coming back, and most zombies seem to chow until stopped, so how did all these people die in the first place? Or are we on our own with this one?

 

In regards to the vandalism: This, although silly to us, should really worry everyone in ASZhatistan. The community is just over 40 people, closed in. Either you have a bad seed you're not aware of and it shows you (Deanna, ASZhats) don't read situations was well as you think. Or people are so bored and restless they are doing this for fun. Not only will they probably get worse, but what the hell is wrong with you that you people can afford to be bored! (I know it turned out to be Sam, but they didn't know that.)

[BrokenRemote]

I've seen this question pop up before, but never really seen an answer. And since Noah and Deanna Jr. caused me to think of it, I'm gonna ask here.

Has it ever been addressed on the show (or even a spoiler-tagged answer from the comics), how there are so many walkers when they seem to destroy most people beyond re-animation? Noah and Aiden (?) are not coming back, and most zombies seem to chow until stopped, so how did all these people die in the first place? Or are we on our own with this one?

In regards to the vandalism: This, although silly to us, should really worry everyone in ASZhatistan. The community is just over 40 people, closed in. Either you have a bad seed you're not aware of and it shows you (Deanna, ASZhats) don't read situations was well as you think. Or people are so bored and restless they are doing this for fun. Not only will they probably get worse, but what the hell is wrong with you that you people can afford to be bored! (I know it turned out to be Sam, but they didn't know that.)

Well, we know, for example, that a huge number in Atlanta died when the government decided to fire-bomb the place. It's possible there were other mass executions of the "infected" (before the government knew that it wasn't a contagious-through-the-air kind of thing). People have also died of starvation, most likely, since good supply chains were cut off--the walkers in cars in the traffic jams could have died that way. And we've seen a few examples of suicide where the person obviously didn't know they'd have to do a head shot to kill themselves (hanging walkers in the woods, bathtub guy above Tara and her sister's apartment). I would guess there were a lot of people who took that way out.

Then there are the sick and elderly, who died when their caregivers disappeared (nursing home where "Brian" swiped the oxygen tank, hospital where Rick woke up). Add all these reasons together, then maybe add in those that were bitten but managed to fight off a lone walker attacker before it was able to do more damage...

I think basically it's lots of reasons.

[JBody]

It's going to take a while to go through all the messages, but I finally got to watch the episode last night.  I've probably got nothing new to say here, but I just had to vent about how angry I am with Father Gabriel.  Part of it is just the trope that characters of faith often turn out to be hypocrites and generally awful people.  And part of it is just that Father Gabriel is indeed an awful person, not at all indicative of a person of faith, especially a man of the cloth.  I can't figure out if he's just that stupid that he doesn't get Rick & Co. or if he's just so terrified of maybe ending up back "out there" again that he wants to get rid of Rick & Co. so the "good folks" of Alexandria never find out what a jerk he is (although it does seem from what we saw tonight that he is indeed a perfect candidate for Alexandria).  Rick & Co. literally saved his life twice - first when he was stuck on the rock and then when he left the church and couldn't get back in.  Both times they could have ignored his plight and left him to fend for himself.  But both times they put themselves at risk to save his sorry butt.  Then they took him in and have kept him alive all this time.  He watched them take in Noah and accept him as part of the group.  Did Father Gabriel not pay any attention whatsoever to what was going on while he was with our group?  Far from turning on each other or leaving anyone behind, once you are part of the group you are part of the group, and they will all put their lives on the line for each other.  And that's exactly what happened here as well.  Twice, in fact.  It was Glenn who insisted that they go for Aidan to bring him home while Aidan's "friend" wanted to just leave him behind.  It was Abraham who insisted on saving Francine when the others would have abandoned her.  Even though they are still feeling each other out and getting to know one another, as far as Rick & Co. are concerned anyway, the Alexandria-ites are now part of their group, and they will put their lives on the line for them.  How does Father Gabriel not get that?  He's seen them do it time and time again.  That just made me so angry, and I don't know why he's doing it.  But it would be poetic justice at this point if Rick & Co. end up leaving Alexandria and leaving Gabriel behind to get killed by the people who won't think twice about leaving him behind to save themselves.  And just because I need to say it, in what universe is anything that Rick & Co. have done to survive WORSE than locking your own congregation out of the church and leaving them to die?  Either Gabriel is just totally losing it or he's perhaps the most despicable character they've ever created on this show, and that includes the governor and the termites. 

 

FPP is a lying liar who lies.  Isaiah 5:20: "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

 

Why would someone with the name FPP be such a lying liar?  Because of his number one character trait, which is cowardice.  His cowardice is based on his overwhelming fear of everything in the new world.  I think you answered your own question: "if he's just so terrified of maybe ending up back "out there" again that he wants to get rid of Rick & Co. so the "good folks" of Alexandria never find out what a jerk he is."  FPP is a liar and a coward but I don't believe he is stupid or unobservant.  He knows that every word he said to Deanna is false.  

[LadyMustang65]

And I am constantly wondering where the grief is for those who were lost on that supply run. Our guys have seen so much death, I can understand being numb to it all, compartmentalizing, or getting over it quickly,but is Alexandria so numbed by loss that no one grieves the loss of 4 members? If so, ASZ is even more suspicious with their happy little façade.

 

 

I have wondered about that as well, but it seems to me that for all they are a community, there doesn't seem to be any real sense of "community" among them.  More like a group of people who occupy space together.  The folks at the construction site did not seem to have even a second of pause about deserting Francine, and they were absolutely amazed that Abraham would risk his life to get her.  So I'm thinking that either deliberately or subconsciously they are not developing any feelings about each other so that when they lose someone, it isn't an occasion for a lot of grief but more an inconvenience because now they need to find someone to replace them.  I'm not sure I'm explaining that well or if that even makes sense.

[Nashville]

I have wondered about that as well, but it seems to me that for all they are a community, there doesn't seem to be any real sense of "community" among them.  More like a group of people who occupy space together.  The folks at the construction site did not seem to have even a second of pause about deserting Francine, and they were absolutely amazed that Abraham would risk his life to get her.  So I'm thinking that either deliberately or subconsciously they are not developing any feelings about each other so that when they lose someone, it isn't an occasion for a lot of grief but more an inconvenience because now they need to find someone to replace them.  I'm not sure I'm explaining that well or if that even makes sense.

So when the ASZhats start going on about what they've lost - maybe they're talking about empathy?

[AndySmith]

If we have to make up a Rick+Jessie name

 

Do we have to? Can't we just say Rick and Jessie?

[MrsRafaelBarba]

That`s actually a good question. Why don't they have people learning new trades? Why is Jessie hanging out, building owls when she could be learning skills that could help her get away from whatever her domestic situation is?

 

Speaking of Pete, if more people learned medical skills, they wouldn't have to put up with Pete. I am working on an assumption here, but do they put up with Pete being abusive because he is their only doctor, and they want to keep him happy? I feel like someone there has to know whats going on. 

 

There`s a difference between trying to find normalcy, and just being lazy. 

 

        Another reason why I'd rather be with our group, aka Team Family.

 

        Back at the Prison, Carol took int initiative and picked up some medical skills from Herschel.

 

        Glenn learned auto repair from Dale, by helping him fix the RV. 

 

        Due to her time on the wall at Woodbury, Sasha is a damn good sharp shooter.

[Yolapukka]

Carol's comment about Rick needing to kill Pete took me aback, but putting it in the context of what she actually said "I know how this is going to go with Pete. There's only one way it can go. (long pause) You're going to have to kill him." she's making a perfectly valid point, if Pete is an abuser and a problem drinker, the fall-out of exposing and confronting his behaviour is likely going result in a situation where Rick will have to make a choice to use deadly force or if he handles it successfully in the short term they will be stuck with an irrational and violent person who has a simmering grudge against Rick, which again could lead to situation where Rick needs to use deadly force. The likelihood that Pete would be banished is slim to none, since he's a key member of their small community, but the likelihood that he won't be a danger is also slight. I don't interpret this at all as her advocating that they need to assassinate Pete, but her recognition that tolerating the situation is not an option, dealing with it is going to result in unacceptable options and Rick needs to be prepared to be ruthless.

Edited March 18, 2015 by yuggapukka

[Nursejen]

It depends on who you think of as "one of our people." Jimmy, Patricia, Otis were all eaten by a pack.

Ahh, yes, and someone mentioned T-dog, too. I had forgotten about those. Now I'm missing T-Dog :( . He was great. He had a great WTF face lol.

[Dr.Jacoby]

Well, there was Hershel, who while a DVM, was still a doctor.  And there was the African American woman doctor in Woodbury.  And at the prison, there was Caleb.  Bob was a military medic.  And they're in NoVa now, they should be close to medical schools and military medics.

 

BTW, what the hell was FPP doing with the wax paper and the bible before he tore the pages out?

On first watch I thought FPP was ripping out and discarding the New Testament and keeping the Old Testament which would have fitted with his rant at the end quite well! (eg urging wrath rather than forgiveness) On rewatch it looks like the first page is already ripped and he had the wax paper laid underneath it to fix the tear, then realised how futile everything was and tore the whole lot apart after seeing the strawberries. 

I'm probably in a tiny minority but I've never really enjoyed Seth Gilliam as an actor- not quite sure why but both here and in The Wire I could always see the 'acting'- so I'm not too sad that he's unravelling!

[kikismom]

I think she looks more like Otis than anyone else who's ever been on the show.  She has his roundness of face, pale skin, and lack of hair.

 

If we have to make up a Rick+Jessie name, my votes on Jeck.  Much better than Rissie.

 

 Hairtator? Depu-dresser?

I think the purpose of having Pete be so insistent about bringing the kids in, is to show his domineering, controlling nature. I think he wants to demonstrate his oh-so-important purpose in their society, and then have Rick be undyingly grateful to him. That's how I took it anyhow.

I got the feeling it was a little reminder...a look at your kids, you know, because I'm a doctor, the doctor  you know likeif something happened to your kids, I'm the only one who could save them?...which, without Pete having been in the barn scene, is what Rick worried about with giving Judith the applesauce I give it to her and she gets sick and your people have the only cure I'd have to go with you!

[loosely paraphrased :-D]

 

I keep thinking they must at least have a garden somewhere?  Have they just been living on old canned goods all this time?  I mean I know if it was effectively evacuated they would have their pick for awhile, but if they wanted to be truly sustainable they would be producing their own food.

 

They also seem incredibly lazy.  Abe incredulously says "Do you think this will really take a whole month??" about building a new part of the wall.  The first sign of trouble and they were going to pack it in.  These people haven't been desperate for anything, and have no urgency.

 

I mean look at Carol's job.  Cook for people that don't know how?  For Mom's that need a break?  A break from what exactly, life?  I can see helping the elderly, but give me a freaking break.  Carol said in her interview that she gardened before.  Why wouldn't  they have her producing food?

 

Maybe we just haven't seen that part, but by looking at the ASZ 360 I don't see any crops of food growing...Deanna kind of sucks.

I don't think it's laziness, lazy people usually aren't ones with such interest in the future and aspirations They don't even think about running out out of basics.Yet we know they complain about waiting for a library book. They claim to portion; somewhat. But those portions were bullshit with those numbers of people.

 

I'm a cynic so I think either Deanna told a little prettified version of accidentally running into military who said "oh there's a place over there and it's been evacuated by the residents...so it makes sense for you all to move in a place that people were told to leave!"

 

Not buying that. The Fed govt. has places all over the US for the WH, Senate, Congress, JCS, to go in a civil breakdown. There might be a whole bunker underground full of stuff for 20 years. Maybe this is Deanna's Post-Disaster Ways and Means assignment.

 

Or somebody else is partners with them? ASZ has electric and water; some sharing with others barter-style?

 

 

I've seen this question pop up before, but never really seen an answer. And since Noah and Deanna Jr. caused me to think of it, I'm gonna ask here.

Has it ever been addressed on the show (or even a spoiler-tagged answer from the comics), how there are so many walkers when they seem to destroy most people beyond re-animation?

Math?

The earliest ones were bit by a relative or neighbor or someone nearby that turned.

As the numbers of humans dwindled, and the early survivors didn't know how to put them down or were to scared to fight them and too busy running away, the number of walkers increased.

Now, with most humans gone, most large animals gone, lone walkers are all headed for increasingly rare sounds.

Far fewer vehicles, gunshots, loud voices, etc.

Solo walkers gathering form herds and while one might just get enough by biting your neck, 40 competing for all need some blood and it's only one body.

[morgankobi]

If it's one on one, does the walker really only take a few bites and then move on? I don't remember the earlier seasons so well.

Edited March 18, 2015 by morgankobi

[maystone]

ASZ isn't all that big. I bet they could dig a nice, wide moat all around that place. They obviously have some heavy machinery available: Francine started out her scene up in the bucket of a backhoe. If water is too precious a resource, fill it with flammables. Or stakes and other booby traps. Put in a drawbridge.  Honestly, come the ZA, maybe the world needs fewer architectural design professors and more medieval studies graduates.

 

I have no idea whether or not Morgan is ever going to get out of the woods and onto the road to Alexandria, but if he does show up, I hope he holds a little Booby Traps 101 for the community.

 

I don't have a good handle on the time lapse between Forget and Spend, but shouldn't there be some kind of perimeter security going up? Rick and Michonne were gobsmacked about the lack of surveillance and patrols, but then Rick decides that tracking down the owl vandal is a better use of his time? Am I missing something?

[morgankobi]

 Honestly, come the ZA, maybe the world needs fewer architectural design professors and more medieval studies graduates.

And scores of recent college graduates can finally tell their parents, "see, I told you I'd figure it out" as they fill their moats with art history majors.

[Nashville]

Has it ever been addressed on the show (or even a spoiler-tagged answer from the comics), how there are so many walkers when they seem to destroy most people beyond re-animation? Noah and Aiden (?) are not coming back, and most zombies seem to chow until stopped, so how did all these people die in the first place? Or are we on our own with this one?

 

The total corpse-devouring is what goes on Now, when the common scenario is one-human-vs-multiple-walkers. Maybe not so much in the early days, though, when the buffet table was a lot bigger:

• Walkers are stimulus-driven, remember (light/sound/fast movement). Back in the Good Old Days when a walker might stumble in a gaggle of respirators, I could see a lot more one-bite-wonders: Walker bites Man A, then gets distracted by Woman B's screaming and goes after her, then gets distracted by Child C's running away, etc.
• Also, people weren't initially cognizant of the mortality prospects of a single bite or scratch. I could see many people suffer what they thought were minor wounds and either ignoring them, or going to other family for treatment/assistance - then passing in the middle of the night, when everybody else is asleep....

An important consideration, however, is this: things are not the same Now as they were Then. More specifically, the Zombie Virus ( for lack of a better term) has either mutated, or has accumulated in prospective human hosts to a critical mass sufficient to change the body's reaction to it. An infected bite is no longer required for the newly dead to turn. Which means in the walker-to-human ratio, ANY human attrition (i.e., death) at the very least decreases the human denominator, and quite possibly increases the walker numerator at the same time (if not "put down" immediately).

So unless humans start breeding like little bunny rabbits to the point live births surpass ALL deaths (natural, walker-induced and otherwise), the degree to which they are outnumbered will only increase. And as the Walker-to-human ratio becomes ever more unbalanced, so also will total body annihilations increase, simply for lack of alternate targets.

[ghoulina]

I have wondered about that as well, but it seems to me that for all they are a community, there doesn't seem to be any real sense of "community" among them.  More like a group of people who occupy space together.  The folks at the construction site did not seem to have even a second of pause about deserting Francine, and they were absolutely amazed that Abraham would risk his life to get her.  So I'm thinking that either deliberately or subconsciously they are not developing any feelings about each other so that when they lose someone, it isn't an occasion for a lot of grief but more an inconvenience because now they need to find someone to replace them.  I'm not sure I'm explaining that well or if that even makes sense.

 

Plus, living how they live, they wouldn't have bonded as much as our group. Even Deanna remarked several times how CDB is really like a family. ASZ seems just like any suburb in the USA - some people get along, they go to cocktail parties, but they're not necessarily super close. 

[kj4ever]

The total corpse-devouring is what goes on Now, when the common scenario is one-human-vs-multiple-walkers. Maybe not so much in the early days, though, when the buffet table was a lot bigger:

• Walkers are stimulus-driven, remember (light/sound/fast movement). Back in the Good Old Days when a walker might stumble in a gaggle of respirators, I could see a lot more one-bite-wonders: Walker bites Man A, then gets distracted by Woman B's screaming and goes after her, then gets distracted by Child C's running away, etc.
• Also, people weren't initially cognizant of the mortality prospects of a single bite or scratch. I could see many people suffer what they thought were minor wounds and either ignoring them, or going to other family for treatment/assistance - then passing in the middle of the night, when everybody else is asleep....

An important consideration, however, is this: things are not the same Now as they were Then. More specifically, the Zombie Virus ( for lack of a better term) has either mutated, or has accumulated in prospective human hosts to a critical mass sufficient to change the body's reaction to it. An infected bite is no longer required for the newly dead to turn. Which means in the walker-to-human ratio, ANY human attrition (i.e., death) at the very least decreases the human denominator, and quite possibly increases the walker numerator at the same time (if not "put down" immediately).

So unless humans start breeding like little bunny rabbits to the point live births surpass ALL deaths (natural, walker-induced and otherwise), the degree to which they are outnumbered will only increase. And as the Walker-to-human ratio becomes ever more unbalanced, so also will total body annihilations increase, simply for lack of alternate targets.

 

Yes but shouldn't the zombies be getting smaller in volume?  I am assuming most people have been through a horrific prison type situation where they slept not protected.  I'd think people would try to be in a situation where they were more protected or have look outs.  Also now that most probably know that you will turn no matter what they will take care of people that die.

 

So once all that goes down, if there are any humans left, I can't help but think the big herds will die off too.  They are only human flesh.  Dead human flesh that rots.  I would think the first big wave should either be dust or not mobile.  They will always be a threat, but I could see how after 5 years or so humans could start outnumbering them.

[Nashville]

Plus, living how they live, they wouldn't have bonded as much as our group. Even Deanna remarked several times how CDB is really like a family. ASZ seems just like any suburb in the USA - some people get along, they go to cocktail parties, but they're not necessarily super close.

...and the next day - over morning coffee, of course - they're giggling and whispering over "Did you see how much Pete was drinking last night? Poor Jessie...."

[morgankobi]

I'm not sure we've seen any walkers die off from "natural" causes yet. I think we can assume the one Maggie found in the trunk had been there for almost all the ZA, had never eaten, but was still raring to go.

Unless it's actually addressed on the show, I feel that any change in appetites and speed of the walkers have more to do with the production of a show over 5+ seasons than the actual mythos. It bugs me they never really discuss their situation enough to talk about this kind of thing, at least where the viewers can see it. 

Edited March 18, 2015 by morgankobi

[kj4ever]

...and the next day - over morning coffee, of course - they're giggling and whispering over "Did you see how much Pete was drinking last night? Poor Jessie...."

I think I might actually take my chances with zombies, starvation, and Merle-tones rather than hang day in day out with the Hit Me Up Girls.

[AndySmith]

But they'll cook you your favorite meal!

[kikismom]

If it's one on one, does the walker really only take a few bites and then move on? I don't remember the earlier seasons so well.hE

here's a refresher: Amy---1 bite on neck, Sofia---one bite on shoulder, Jim---1 bite on stomach

Edited March 18, 2015 by kikismom

[Nashville]

Yes but shouldn't the zombies be getting smaller in volume?  I am assuming most people have been through a horrific prison type situation where they slept not protected.  I'd think people would try to be in a situation where they were more protected or have look outs.  Also now that most probably know that you will turn no matter what they will take care of people that die.

 

You're probably right - assuming they survived Apocalypse Wave v2.0 (the advent of non-bit deaths turning), which I could easily see catching a lot of folks unawares. There will be zombie attrition as well - fires, floods, the occasional well or sinkhole, etc. The issue of wildlife predation also hasn't been addressed to any significant degree. If a zombie in a Brazilian rain forest stumbles into a stream and gets devoured by piranha, do the piranha die? Or do they turn into zombie piranha...?

But I digress. Point being - yes, the herds are probably shrinking as well. Question is: how big did the herds get at their height, and how fast are they declining? In current times, humans and natural attrition could be taking out five zombies for every one human death - but if zombies outnumbered humans twelve-to-one, the zombies are still winning.

So once all that goes down, if there are any humans left, I can't help but think the big herds will die off too.  They are only human flesh.  Dead human flesh that rots.  I would think the first big wave should either be dust or not mobile.  They will always be a threat, but I could see how after 5 years or so humans could start outnumbering them.

Also agree - question there being whether humans can survive those 5+ years, THEN continue to survive until they get the upper hand in numbers. Even taking that into account, though - there is no end to this issue. Humans could eliminate 100% of all zombies on the planet and settle back with a self-satisfied, complacent smile - until a fatal bus wreck unleashes a few dozen new munchers on an unsuspecting little town, that is. And so begins the cycle again....

[AngelaHunter]

Am I the only one who ever wants to yell, "It's "He was BITTEN", and not "He was BIT!"?

 

Please resume regular programming.

[editorgrrl]

I'm not sure we've seen any walkers die off from "natural" causes yet. I think we can assume the one Maggie found in the trunk had been there for almost all the ZA, had never eaten, but was still raring to go.

 

Unless it's actually addressed on the show, I feel that any change in appetites and speed of the walkers have more to do with the production of a show over 5+ seasons than the actual mythos. It bugs me they never really discuss their situation enough to talk about this kind of thing, at least where the viewers can see it. 

 

I agree on all counts. FYI, there's a thread where we've been talking about just this kind of stuff, "Zombie Talk: Gruesome, Gory and Grabby." The pinned post says, "Here is your thread to discuss, dissect and analyze everything and anything about the poor rotting corpses."

[Nashville]

Am I the only one who ever wants to yell, "It's "He was BITTEN", and not "He was BIT!"?

 

Please resume regular programming.

You're spelling it wrong. It's "He WUZ BIT!"