Sweet Fellowship: Duggars and Friends (aka the Bates Family and Other Featured Families Thread)

[Sew Sumi]

Pure bragging -- Look how pure and special we are! Also, only men experience desire, so obviously only men would be impatient.

He wasn't shown in the TLC episode, but there's a complete video (available on You Tube) of the entire Keller/Waller wedding, and he is in that, giving a talk as part of the ceremony. I think that's the video we've mostly been talking about.

Yes, I've seen it...several times. I was referring to TLC's editing Gothard out, most likely at his insistence.

[BitterApple]

David is just like Brandon Keilen. Neither of them wanted to get married but their families pushed them into it. I wonder how that will play out in their relationships.

[GeeGolly]

Mentally ill people often have very strange religious thoughts.

With no disrespect, I can't do the work I do with defending people that live with a Mental Health diagnosis. While it is true that certain diagnoses have symptoms with religious components, the vast majority do not. I also have yet to come across a person that is not effected by mental illness is some fashion.

[queenanne]

Oh, then David clearly didn't want to marry anyone.  At least based upon my experience it's clear.  

 

Because as I've written before, born-again Christians just don't take that risk, at least not those who have been raised in the church from small.  They go to Christian colleges and don't leave without the proverbial "Mrs. Degree" at or before 22, because of 1 Corinthians 7:9, "let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion".  I was allowed to stay on the shelf because (a) I didn't go to a Christian college and (b) I'm intimidatingly smart for "fundie Christian men" but in general, that's the drill. The 25-year-old unmarried Christian man, would be at least partially regarded with the same skepticism they'd ladle at a 25-y-o unmarried Christian woman. (Sometimes they'd blame the women in the church instead for not being good enough pickings for this special man, but some wouldn't scruple to also blame the man in the bargain for not choosing someone.)  If you're going to have a ministry, forget it, I'm not even sure the Evangelical churches I've known would hire an unmarried youth minister.

Edited September 19, 2015 by queenanne

[3girlsforus]

NO OFFENSE INTENDED HERE, but:

I am unable to fathom why any God would WANt couples to 'sacrifice their feelings'. It's sad to me to think of an almighty being who wants humans to prove their allegiance by marrying someone with whom they do not necessarily want to share a life commitment. I am unable to accept the concept that God is one big marriage traffic controller, with nothing more important to do than guilt humans into marrying partners they do not want, just for god's apparent amusement and ego chest bump.

 

God doesn't want couples to sacrifice their feelings. This is purely a fundie/Gothard thing. They are driven by their devotional to Gothard ideals not God/Bible. I am a Christian and I do not recognize the god they worship.

Oh, then David clearly didn't want to marry anyone.  At least based upon my experience it's clear.  

 

Because as I've written before, born-again Christians just don't take that risk, at least not those who have been raised in the church from small.  They go to Christian colleges and don't leave without the proverbial "Mrs. Degree" at or before 22, because of 1 Corinthians 7:9, "let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion".  I was allowed to stay on the shelf because (a) I didn't go to a Christian college and (b) I'm intimidatingly smart for "fundie Christian men" but in general, that's the drill. The 25-year-old unmarried Christian man, would be at least partially regarded with the same skepticism they'd ladle at a 25-y-o unmarried Christian woman. (Sometimes they'd blame the women in the church instead for not being good enough pickings for this special man, but some wouldn't scruple to also blame the man in the bargain for not choosing someone.)  If you're going to have a ministry, forget it, I'm not even sure the Evangelical churches I've known would hire an unmarried youth minister.

 

This may be true for fundie churches but fundie and "born-again'/evangelical are not synonymous. I grew up in an evangelical church and the girls all went to college, none of them got married in college or even close to graduation. They all had careers first. Three churches I've attended have had unmarried youth ministers. This 'you'd better get married' thing is more of a fundie approach than an evangelical one. 

[Defrauder]

Well one thing I'll say for Priscilla she almost makes Michelle look sane.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

But realistically, they're never going to see that movie. It's the nazis vs. the Catholics. Who are they going to root for?

  

You'd probably have to start by explaining that Austria isn't in Germany.

You all win the Internet this weekend. Hahahah! Too funny!

[Churchhoney]

NO OFFENSE INTENDED HERE, but:

I am unable to fathom why any God would WANt couples to 'sacrifice their feelings'. It's sad to me to think of an almighty being who wants humans to prove their allegiance by marrying someone with whom they do not necessarily want to share a life commitment. I am unable to accept the concept that God is one big marriage traffic controller, with nothing more important to do than guilt humans into marrying partners they do not want, just for god's apparent amusement and ego chest bump.

 

 

No offense taken. I don't think a god would want to do this either. In fact, I don't even think there is a god 

 

But I do think that which beliefs we base our lives and actions on may sometimes make things easier or harder to do.

 

And if I were in an arranged marriage that I didn't want because the union was required to consolidate my family's farm holdings, I would find it a lot harder to take than if I were in the same marriage because I believed that that marriage was what my god wanted because it would ultimately do some good for someone or for the world. And I think that might be true for these two creatures. If so, they'll probably be a little happier than the the many centuries worth of arranged couples who were arranged for the purpose of consolidating their family's money and/or power. So ... happier than most of the crowned heads of Europe, perhaps.

 

Since I know that I'd never get the KellerWallers to see anything my way, I might as well hope this for them -- that having a sense of deeper meaning attached to their marriage makes them happier than they otherwise might be in such a sad situation.

[Patricia07]

I just can't imagine what David and Priscilla's wedding night was like.

[Barbie]

I just can't imagine what David and Priscilla's wedding night was like.

that's easy, David crying and hiding in the bathroom... 

[Tabbygirl521]

Yesterday I came across a YouTube clip of David and Priscilla rhapsodizing about their marriage on their third anniversary. It was a bit over the top but David did say something like he was grateful that Priscilla had chosen to be a mom and to take great care of their child, when she could have had another type of "wonderful career." He sounded totally sincere and I liked that he addressed this as a choice she had. I had never laid eyes on them till the other day so am still forming my opinions, but this seemed rather revolutionary for a Gothardite. .

[GeeGolly]

that's easy, David crying and hiding in the bathroom... 

Still laughing 

[FakeJoshDuggar]

In her own words Priscilla Waller describes her thoughts and feelings when she accepted David Waller's courtship:

I cried out to the Lord as I headed back to the lodge: “Lord, I know that love is not an emotion! Please show me what you are doing.” Jogging down the road, the Lord reminded me of the road He trod to Calvary. That was certainly not a road of emotion. He prayed three times that, if it was possible, to have this cup pass from Him. However, God so loved the world that He sent His only son to lay down His life for us. True, sincere love is not an emotion, but it is laying down your life. I needed to lay down my life, my plans, my future, my all so that together, we could go farther for God.

I wonder what's going to happen when/if she actually falls head over heels in love with someone. Love is an emotion when you actually feel something for someone. That was depressing as hell.

[FakeJoshDuggar]

This all reminds me of Jenna (aka That Wife) of Bathroom Baby infamy. Her husband didn't want to marry her so she made a power point presentation and described in quotes why the Mormon leaders said that they should get married. He SO didn't want to get married and it shows.

Jenna is a whole other layer of crazy.

[louannems]

For more good viewing of Princilla, you must watch "Michelle Duggar and Princilla Waller Give encouragement to mothers and daughters" on YouTube!

Edited September 20, 2015 by louannems

[Liz Tudor]

For more good viewing of Princilla, you must watch "Michelle Duggar and Princilla Waller Give encouragement to mothers and daughters" on YouTube!

Oh, bother. I just did. Drink when you hear the words "heart" or "humble/humility." The comments under the video are pretty biting.

[SomePity1066]

Oh, bother. I just did. Drink when you hear the words "heart" or "humble/humility." The comments under the video are pretty biting.

Okay, and I can continue to snark here while I'm in rehab !!! Anyone care to join me ?

 

Seriously - what is UP with their 100 word vocabulary ?! It's not just that they are bland, dull, and monotonous, but, rather, that the overuse of their "key" words (special, neat, awesome, good, pure, humble, modest) have rendered them unable to actually say anything of substance - their words have no impact whatsoever because they've been used to death...

 

They're ALL, apparently, special, neat, awesome, etc, so being described as such gives me ZERO information as to what that person is really like. They are unable to differentiate one person's defining personal characteristics from another because they are all equally humble and modest. 

 

I could, for example, tell you that my dad was awesome. You'd nod your head, most likely, and say "That's great !"

 

Or, I could tell you that he used to put a note in my lunchbox every morning in grade school telling me I was going to have a great day and don't let the turkeys get you down ! That he'd leave books for me on my dresser with a note saying "Read this and tell me what you think, honey..."  

 

That he was proud of every accomplishment I achieved and stood by me with every mistake I made. He both helped me become and let me become the person I am today...

 

See, better than just saying he was "awesome", right ?!  I wonder if the Duggar/Keller/Bates/Whatever clans would even understand the difference. I really don't think so, and that's a sad, sad thing to say.

[MarysWetBar]

And maybe that is why Jessa & Ben didn't do their "1st kiss" at the alter, because it would have been a lie.

BJ in the coat check closet.

[Defrauder]

I just can't imagine what David and Priscilla's wedding night was like.

Oh no you did not just go there. Alright now that you did, I can't imagine 2 people less in love with each other.  On the one hand you have Priscilla and her love is not an emotion, I'm being nailed to the cross, and on the other hand you have David who wants to wait a few more years at least.  So there they find themselves on their wedding night.  I imagine Priscilla was thinking - time to make God's army for him and David was thinking I really wish this day didn't come so quickly but time to make God's army and just get it over with.  I think it went something  like that and they were both happy when it was done and they could fall asleep.

[Julia]

For more good viewing of Princilla, you must watch "Michelle Duggar and Princilla Waller Give encouragement to mothers and daughters" on YouTube!

  

Oh, bother. I just did. Drink when you hear the words "heart" or "humble/humility." The comments under the video are pretty biting.

If love isn't a thing, I can't imagine how hearts come into it. But, isn't she from the family where the mother only talks to them once a week and they're not allowed to have feelings? I can't imagine how she could have managed to explain why she didn't want to get married if she did work up the nerve.

[Defrauder]

These kids remind me of kidnapping victims who come to accept the control of their captors as being good for them.  They have to share their journals, their thoughts, emotions (or non emotions) with their captors, and they speak about being 'trained' by them like it's a really great thing.  They are not allowed independent thought or actions and they are taught that they must obey their captors without question with the ultimate threat being that they will somehow go against God who may decide to send them to hell for eternity for disobedience and not honoring their captors with smiles and praise.  By the time they are young children they have come to accept this way of life as being the right way to live.  Be happy about it or else because being happy about it is a rule not to be broken lest you make your captors look bad.  That's constantly drilled into their heads.  Someone like Priscilla Waller learns early that love is not an emotion but a duty, like being crucified. That's what she's been trained to believe.

[GeeGolly]

These kids remind me of kidnapping victims who come to accept the control of their captors as being good for them.  They have to share their journals, their thoughts, emotions (or non emotions) with their captors, and they speak about being 'trained' by them like it's a really great thing.  They are not allowed independent thought or actions and they are taught that they must obey their captors without question with the ultimate threat being that they will somehow go against God who may decide to send them to hell for eternity for disobedience and not honoring their captors with smiles and praise.  By the time they are young children they have come to accept this way of life as being the right way to live.  Be happy about it or else because being happy about it is a rule not to be broken lest you make your captors look bad.  That's constantly drilled into their heads.  Someone like Priscilla Waller learns early that love is not an emotion but a duty, like being crucified. That's what she's been trained to believe.

It is so sad. I can't tell you how many people I work with that have anxiety disorders and/or depression, in part, because they had to ignore their feelings for one reason or another. You can't spend a childhood stuffing your feelings and come out unscathed. Having feelings is as natural as pooping, and if you don't poop you implode or explode eventually. The same is true of suppressing feelings.

[Churchhoney]

I wonder what's going to happen when/if she actually falls head over heels in love with someone. Love is an emotion when you actually feel something for someone. That was depressing as hell.

 

On the other hand, those who go too far with the "love is an emotion" definition are prone to fall head over heels in love with someone else after marriage, too, and then they often walk off, leaving a spouse to curse and struggle. A good friend of mine recently gave me the old "I have a right to be happy, don't I?" thing and, honestly, at this particular point in time, I don't really think she does. Or at least I don't think her right is nearly strong enough to outrank other current considerations, although she's pretty certain that it is, based solely on the strength of her love emotion.

 

Anyway, it seems pretty clear to me that the definition of love that works best for general human happiness is somewhere in between a wholehearted "love is an emotion" and the Wallers' scary and equally absolutist view.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Churchhoney

[mbutterfly]

Me, too, and I guess God is pissed at both of us. I'll save a place for you in the fires o'hell.

It's such an interesting theology about love. Of course in the Bible and biblical culture love is an action verb so I suppose that's what she's referring to. But still, God is love, and we are created in God's image. So love is a part of our essential being. IMO

[Churchhoney]

It is so sad. I can't tell you how many people I work with that have anxiety disorders and/or depression, in part, because they had to ignore their feelings for one reason or another. You can't spend a childhood stuffing your feelings and come out unscathed. Having feelings is as natural as pooping, and if you don't poop you implode or explode eventually. The same is true of suppressing feelings.

 

Amen. It also utterly robs you of your power to do oh so many things in your life. Freezes you into passivity, I guess because, among other things, emotions are what motivate you to act on your own behalf. Suppressing them for years on end makes that pretty difficult to do.

[Churchhoney]

Okay, and I can continue to snark here while I'm in rehab !!! Anyone care to join me ?

 

Seriously - what is UP with their 100 word vocabulary ?! It's not just that they are bland, dull, and monotonous, but, rather, that the overuse of their "key" words (special, neat, awesome, good, pure, humble, modest) have rendered them unable to actually say anything of substance - their words have no impact whatsoever because they've been used to death...

 

They're ALL, apparently, special, neat, awesome, etc, so being described as such gives me ZERO information as to what that person is really like. They are unable to differentiate one person's defining personal characteristics from another because they are all equally humble and modest. 

 

I could, for example, tell you that my dad was awesome. You'd nod your head, most likely, and say "That's great !"

 

Or, I could tell you that he used to put a note in my lunchbox every morning in grade school telling me I was going to have a great day and don't let the turkeys get you down ! That he'd leave books for me on my dresser with a note saying "Read this and tell me what you think, honey..."  

 

That he was proud of every accomplishment I achieved and stood by me with every mistake I made. He both helped me become and let me become the person I am today...

 

See, better than just saying he was "awesome", right ?!  I wonder if the Duggar/Keller/Bates/Whatever clans would even understand the difference. I really don't think so, and that's a sad, sad thing to say.

 

Wow, such a great example.

 

But of course their way is their way for a reason. It's intended to totally discourage thought, questioning, deep observation, etc. etc. It's the way of those who want everyone in line with no trouble. The way of the Nazi Youth, actually. It's not an accident that control freaks very very carefully control vocabulary. Words have power because they unlock things, ideas, feelings. The Duggars (and Gothard, of course) know they only have control when the people they dominate are unable to unlock any things.

[Defrauder]

David Waller describes the beginning of the courtship with Priscilla:

 

Having never dated any girls except my mom and sisters, it was super special to go out to a few restaurants during this time and share in many special memories. It was also a very meaningful time to hear of Priscilla’s heart desires, dreams, goals, and also some of her concerns and fears. This sharing united our hearts at a much deeper level than I have ever known in any relationship and has been one of the best things that has ever happened in my walk with the Lord.

[Liz Tudor]

If love isn't a thing, I can't imagine how hearts come into it.

while love is not an emotion, hearts are things upon which things are laid, like a piece of furniture.

[Defrauder]

David Waller speaks of Priscilla's father (also Anna's father) giving him the go ahead to pursue a courtship with Priscilla. 

 

To my joy, he was very open and excited. After a while, he stopped me and just said, “David, I really feel like God is the One working in your life to give you these desires toward Priscilla. I have only two questions for you: Are you willing to trust God with the size of your family and second, are you willing to be accountable to Priscilla for your Internet use.”

[BradandJanet]

Ironically, both Priscilla's and David's posts do show some real emotion--fear and anger. It's all deeply couched in mechanical KJV-like language with a few awesomes and preciouses thrown in, the only language they have to express their important thoughts and feelings. These stories are a window into the cold, controlled lives these young people have led. 

[3girlsforus]

David Waller describes the beginning of the courtship with Priscilla:

 

Having never dated any girls except my mom and sisters, it was super special to go out to a few restaurants during this time and share in many special memories. It was also a very meaningful time to hear of Priscilla’s heart desires, dreams, goals, and also some of her concerns and fears. This sharing united our hearts at a much deeper level than I have ever known in any relationship and has been one of the best things that has ever happened in my walk with the Lord.

 

 

David Waller speaks of Priscilla's father (also Anna's father) giving him the go ahead to pursue a courtship with Priscilla. 

 

To my joy, he was very open and excited. After a while, he stopped me and just said, “David, I really feel like God is the One working in your life to give you these desires toward Priscilla. I have only two questions for you: Are you willing to trust God with the size of your family and second, are you willing to be accountable to Priscilla for your Internet use.”

 

 

I have been sitting here trying to craft a response to these two quotes and I just can't. There is just so much fundamentally (no pun intended) wrong I don't know where to begin. It's hard to imagine such a complete lack of understanding of interpersonal relationships. And the priorities.... how completely out of whack. When someone wants to marry your daughter, are these your primary concerns? I have three daughters and I guarantee these aren't even on the list. Someone posted recently a quote from David thanking Priscilla for choosing to be a mom. Sorry - doesn't sound like she had a choice.

[GeeGolly]

My kids are adults, they will be asking the questions and determining whether or not to marry.

[3girlsforus]

My kids are adults, they will be asking the questions and determining whether or not to marry.

 

Now you can't possibly allow that. How can someone who is old enough to get married, create a home together, have children etc possibly know how to pick the right person. Of course dad has to tell them what to do. They won't know anything about how to choose a spouse until it's time for them to tell their children who they are supposed to marry.

[GeeGolly]

The Bateses appear to be less creepy and weird than the Duggars, Kellers, Wallers. I wonder if they really are less weird and creepy or if they just hide it better.

IMHO, the Bates family are loving, allow individuality, and continuing education - all normal stuff. Yet they are Gothardites, so the creepiness is unavoidable. 

Now you can't possibly allow that. How can someone who is old enough to get married, create a home together, have children etc possibly know how to pick the right person. Of course dad has to tell them what to do. They won't know anything about how to choose a spouse until it's time for them to tell their children who they are supposed to marry.

There goes my Mother-of-the-Year award.

[JenCarroll]

Having feelings is as natural as pooping, and if you don't poop you implode or explode eventually.

Well thanks for that imagery! I was eating breakfast... LOL

[GeeGolly]

Well thanks for that imagery! I was eating breakfast... LOL

So sorry JenCarroll!

[tabloidlover]

David Waller speaks of Priscilla's father (also Anna's father) giving him the go ahead to pursue a courtship with Priscilla. 

 

To my joy, he was very open and excited. After a while, he stopped me and just said, “David, I really feel like God is the One working in your life to give you these desires toward Priscilla. I have only two questions for you: Are you willing to trust God with the size of your family and second, are you willing to be accountable to Priscilla for your Internet use.”

I'm a bit stunned to read this, yet I shouldn't be.  This makes it so very clear that internet porn is a very real thing in their insulated world.   How the hell does this even come up in a discussion with your soon to be son in law??   Why are Gothard families so into each others sex lives?  I don't want my family even thinking about my sex life OR my husband's internet usage.  Boundaries? 

[queenanne]

Well, I think the most interesting takeaway is that clearly Priscilla's sister Anna, was supposed to be in charge of Josh's Internet use also.  Think he didn't get the same speech from FIL?

 

That worked out really well, didn't it?

[3girlsforus]

 

There goes my Mother-of-the-Year award.

 

Welcome to the club. I lost mine when I *gasp* allowed my daughters to go to college!! Shame on me.

[Defrauder]

The Bateses appear to be less creepy and weird than the Duggars, Kellers, Wallers. I wonder if they really are less weird and creepy or if they just hide it better.

Something about them having pictures of Confederate Civil War 'heroes' on their wall suggests that they just hide it better.

[3girlsforus]

Well, I think the most interesting takeaway is that clearly Priscilla's sister Anna, was supposed to be in charge of Josh's Internet use also.  Think he didn't get the same speech from FIL?

 

That worked out really well, didn't it?

 

This is yet another reason why Josh's problem is Anna's fault. She failed as a wife. 

[Defrauder]

Or (and this is what I think) Pa Keller knew of Josh's 'bad habit' somehow and wanted to protect his next daughter from having to go through the same thing.  

[Satchels of gold]

I have been sitting here trying to craft a response to these two quotes and I just can't. There is just so much fundamentally (no pun intended) wrong I don't know where to begin. It's hard to imagine such a complete lack of understanding of interpersonal relationships. And the priorities.... how completely out of whack. When someone wants to marry your daughter, are these your primary concerns? I have three daughters and I guarantee these aren't even on the list. Someone posted recently a quote from David thanking Priscilla for choosing to be a mom. Sorry - doesn't sound like she had a choice.

I know, right? Let's start at dating your sisters and your mother....Frued would have a field day.

[Defrauder]

I know, right? Let's start at dating your sisters and your mother....Frued would have a field day.

I feel guilty for laughing at this so much but I can't stop.

[queenanne]

I'm not sure "dating your sisters and mother" is even Biblical.

 

I mean, you all know what I mean, but the entire father-daughter-dating-thing as I understand it, is supposed to have fathers teaching and modeling appropriate adult male stranger-relationships, and dating/courtship behaviors, with and for the daughters.

 

In this patriarchal society, the Wallers really think that if David goes out on "a date" with the sister, the sister is supposed to teach him anything?  She's a woman, why should she be doing the teaching under this heading and headship?

 

To be fair and have this make any sense at all, it seems that Pa Waller would have to be following the two of them around on "a date", and critiquing David's style.  Even Ma Waller wouldn't be qualified to do the lecturing.

[Defrauder]

I'm a bit stunned to read this, yet I shouldn't be.  This makes it so very clear that internet porn is a very real thing in their insulated world.   How the hell does this even come up in a discussion with your soon to be son in law??   Why are Gothard families so into each others sex lives?  I don't want my family even thinking about my sex life OR my husband's internet usage.  Boundaries? 

There are no boundaries.  There never has been.  Except when it comes to covering up your knees and then splashing your fertility chart on the refrigerator for the entire family to keep track of.  This all makes sense don't you see?

[3girlsforus]

I actually took the dating my mom and sister thing as much more basic than any deep teaching or learning. I think he meant going out somewhere like a restaurant. Until Priscilla he had never made plans to go to a restaurant with any female other than his mom and sister. Maybe not even another person other than family members.  Then he discovered that when you are with someone who isn't part of your family and you talk to them, you learn something about them. While the rest of us learn this early on, this was new and wonderful for him. So instead of recognizing this as basic socialization, he decided it was God telling him to marry Priscilla. 

Edited September 20, 2015 by 3girlsforus

[Defrauder]

In David's defense I believe he meant 'dating his mom and sisters' in the sense of just going out to eat with them.  That was David's dating experience and to him that is what dating is - just going out to eat.  Poor innocent David, trapped in a loveless marriage, unless you believe love is pure agony and sacrifice.  Well could be worse I guess, at least he knew that he HAD to court someone other than his mom or sisters.  He does appear happy, as only a brainwashed hostage can be.  Well I can't imagine living with Priscilla every day.  She's so over the top and seems to be in a constant state of religious ecstasy which I'm sure is the only ecstasy she's ever known so that's all she's got, but there is wayyyy something off there.  

I actually took the dating my mom and sister thing as much more basic than any deep teaching or learning. I think he meant going out somewhere like a restaurant. Until Priscilla he had never made plans to go to a restaurant with any female other than his mom and sister. Maybe not even another person other than family members.  Then he discovered that when you are with someone who isn't part of your family and you talk to them, you learn something about them. While the rest of us learn this early on, this was new and wonderful for him. So instead of recognizing this as basic socialization, he decided it was God telling him to marry Priscilla. 

Looks like we were thinking the same thing at the same time.  

[Tabbygirl521]

I am the one posted about David's mentioning that Priscilla chose to be a mom. I agree that in their culture, she didn't really have a choice. But I still think it's interesting that he said it, and seemed sincere. Maybe he just meant he's glad she didn't leave the cult to have a career.

I, too, think he mistook normal pleasure in getting to know another human as a message from God. I haven't learned much about David - just the wedding and anniversary videos. From his blogposts that Defrauder shared, he sounds kind of lonely and naive but well-meaning. Two people with good intentions and respect for each other can make a reasonably successful marriage, I guess - at least by their definition. But how sad for them if, for example, he really is "fabulous" and she has any perfectly understandable issues about sex, resulting from her "training." The rest of their lives together might work out pretty well, but oh lord, the baby-making! Nailed to the cross, indeed

[Churchhoney]

I actually took the dating my mom and sister thing as much more basic than any deep teaching or learning. I think he meant going out somewhere like a restaurant. Until Priscilla he had never made plans to go to a restaurant with any female other than his mom and sister. Maybe not even another person other than family members.  Then he discovered that when you are with someone who isn't part of your family and you talk to them, you learn something about them. While the rest of us learn this early on, this was new and wonderful for him. So instead of recognizing this as basic socialization, he decided it was God telling him to marry Priscilla. 

 

Yeah, I'd go with this interpretation. I never had any social interchange with anyone besides my family either, and when I finally did beginning at age 18, it was a total revelation to me. Really a shock. I was terrible at it, too.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Churchhoney