Sweet Fellowship: Duggars and Friends (aka the Bates Family and Other Featured Families Thread)

[RazzleberryPie]

Some people just want their kids to be close in age. I don't think Alyssa is building an army:

[smlait]

My kids are only two years apart.  I'm old and wanted to get the child bearing done before getting even older.  :-)

[Fuzzysox]

Spoiler

 

The Friends of the Bates blog on FB has a newer picture of Alyssa with her brothers in Florida. You can deff see a more pronounced baby bump vs the picture on top. IDK how to "steal" a picture so I can't post it.

[Sew Sumi]

[GeeGolly]

Does Alyssa dress more conservatively when visiting her family, and then dress her new normal of less conservative clothing when her family visits her?

[Sew Sumi]

Yes, she is all-skirts when she goes home, but I've seen her in pants when her siblings visit. She may go all-skirts when Gil and Kelly visit; I'm not 100% sure on that one. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

Maybe she does as she pleases away from home, but shows respect for her parents when home.  There are still little Bateses that don't yet get a choice.

[Sew Sumi]

Yes, she's said that this is the caze, at least when she's home. Their house, their rules. Like I said, I can't recall whether this extends to when Gil and Kelly visit her. Most pics are of grands with Allie Jane. Alyssa does wear jeans when just siblings visit, so this is solely a parental respect thing. 

[RazzleberryPie]

I think it's wonderful and respectful that Alyssa bides by her parents rules in their home, and then by her own rules in her own home. 

[ariel]

I think it would be nice if Alyssa's  parents respected "her" wishes how she would like to dress. She is an adult. Respect should go both ways.

Edited July 10, 2016 by ariel

[RazzleberryPie]

How are they not respecting her wishes? 

[Jynnan tonnix]

33 minutes ago, ariel said:

I think it would be nice if Alyssa's  parents respected "her" wishes how she would like to dress. She is an adult. Respect should go both ways.

While she may like wearing certain things which she wasn't allowed growing up, that doesn't necessarily mean that she has some sort of hatred of skirts and dresses. She may well be just as comfortable dressing in things that her parents approve of but just enjoys a little more flexibility in her attire when she is at home.

[Sew Sumi]

No, she has said that she purposely wears skirts-only at home. 

I think Alyssa should be free to wear whatever she wants when her parents come to town. Maybe she does, but we just never saw a picture capturing it. I mean, Kelly has said multiple times that when her kids grew up, they would set the rules for their own houses. An extension of that from Gil and Kelly's standpoint would be respecting the rules that THEY have set. THAT would be showing mutual respect that the marrieds deserve as ostensibly launched adults. Otherwise, they're no better than the married Duggars, who have ventured into what, Calvinism and manbuns (and we have yet to see JB's reaction to the latter)? 

Edited July 10, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[Arwen Evenstar]

Calvinism & Man Buns....I smell a documentary film in the making....

[GeeGolly]

I think it's sweet that she follows the Bates' rule of dress at home. It's respectful to her parents and continues the example for her little sisters.

I wonder if the little girls ever come back from FL and say, Well Alyssa wears tank tops, why can't I?

[Arwen Evenstar]

And mom would say, when you're married, you can wear what you want. And when you're home, please respect our rules....no doubt something along those lines. Alyssa has already set the example...

[Happyfatchick]

I totally "get this", dressing In skirts only when visiting her parents.  My father was Amish growing up, so much of our "vacation" time was spent with Amish relatives.  They knew we didn't wear dresses all the time, and we knew not to pack jeans or shorts when we went to see them.  truthfully, it was as much out of respect for my own father as my grandparents.  I don't even recall it ever being discussed.  It just wasn't done.  As I got older, I didn't wear makeup there either (although I played so hard with my once-a-year cousins it wouldn't have worked, and I didn't take hair styling products, because...where are you going to plug that hair dryer in, heathen???  I admire Alyssa for dressing in a way that makes her parents comfortable when she's there.

[MunichNark]

Perhaps she simply respects her parents rules in their house and doesn't want to make it difficult for them as there are younger kids around who may be confused. She does get to live by her rules in her house after all

[Arwen Evenstar]

[Sew Sumi]

A poster over at FJ knows the Bateses from her days in IBLP. She says that their boy/girlfriend designations are all for show and that they follow the typical Gothard courtship pattern of short engagements. 

She goes on to say that Nathan and Ashley had actually been courting since last summer, which gives credence to Ashley saying that she thought he was going to propose at Christmas. It was all staged by UP (as are many other scenes).

Further, she doesn't think any of the kids down to Josie will totally leave the cult. She says Michael is hardcore," and that Alyssa is not very smart but quite vain which is why we shouldn't expect many kids, but she's not going anywhere (explains her exit from Instagram). She also warns not to let Carlin fool you: she may be loud, but she's all-in and has been planning her wedding since she was 10. She said Josie is her favorite but didn't elaborate as to why. 

She had nothing to add about the guys, but in their gender-oriented society, that's to be expected.

[Sew Sumi]

Reading TFDW's caption is necessary here. #SOTDRTfail. 

 

 

[JoanArc]

Maybe....they were native American prostitutes? Oh David. You idiot.

[BitterApple]

Nice way to show respect for the culture, Davey. 

[bigskygirl]

My Native American ancestors are rolling over in their graves. At least spell the name of the tribe right.

[Sew Sumi]

I thought it was hilarious that their own leghumpers corrected him. When I saw the post yesterday, only one person had corrected him to that point, and I figured that he'd delete!delete!delete! but apparently not. 

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, Sew Sumi said:

Reading TFDW's caption is necessary here. #SOTDRTfail. 

 

 

It's not just David. "Navaho" was a pretty widely used spelling in the 19th century, and apparently some fundie mission groups have brought it back. As here:https://joshuaproject.net/       

( https://joshuaproject.net/about  )             

Since DW's family are dedicated members of a Gothard-sprung fundie mission group, I expect that's where it comes from.

I doubt that it's just a School System of a Bunch of Dining Room Tables spelling error, either. The fact that it's now an archaic but once widely used U.S. spelling suggests to me that there's probably some kind of idea behind their doing it. .... Like ... if we spell everything the way people did in the 19th century, one day we'll wake up and it'll be the 19th century -- hurrah!?.... Well, not that. But something.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Sew Sumi]

And we saw how the Americans treated the Native Americans in the 19th Century. Are the Wallers trying to tell these people that their culture is wrong because they worship the wrong god(s)? Can one simultaneously retain one's cultural touchstones and discard the entire spiritual aspect of that culture? 

[Arwen Evenstar]

4 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

And we saw how the Americans treated the Native Americans in the 19th Century. Are the Wallers trying to tell these people that their culture is wrong because they worship the wrong god(s)? Can one simultaneously retain one's cultural touchstones and discard the entire spiritual aspect of that culture? 

This explains why missionaries often ended up in stewpots!

[Sew Sumi]

Jim Elliot is a martyred hero in Fundieland....and the Seewalds recognized this by giving Spurgeon the middle name. 

Evangelizing to Catholics is one thing. Evangelizing to people in your own country who have a completely different set of beliefs and have already been fucking marginalized for hundreds of years is another kettle of fish altogether. 

Nicely convoluted sentence, eh? Sierra would have put four commas in it. :D

Edited July 13, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

And we saw how the Americans treated the Native Americans in the 19th Century. Are the Wallers trying to tell these people that their culture is wrong because they worship the wrong god(s)?

Well, I think so. Cause that's the whole point of these missions, right? But I think they also firmly believe that they're doing the right thing -- both according to God's will and for the souls of the people who worship the other gods -- by basically telling them this. Because if they don't come to believe in the right God, they're doomed, right?

I mean, I think we clearly see in this example that they in some ways do behave with a funny version of respect -- when they tell people from one culture they'd like to "save" -- the Navajo folks -- about the people they know in another culture they'd like to "save," in Mongolia, where they spent years. They're obviously thinking of theories that link Native Americans to a possible long-ago movement of folks from Mongolia into North America, and I don't think they're speaking really disrespectfully of the two cultures or of the historical story that adopts that theory when they make the comparison. He seems to talk about the Navajo folks enjoying hearing about that link, And  I think he's very likely portraying that possible link as part of a big symbolic story of the history of humanity in which many cultures have developed before the coming of Christ and then since the coming of Christ there's been a slow movement of missionaries out across the world to draw all these peoples together under Christ's banner.

They're being disrespectful in our terms -- but in their terms, they're not intending to denigrate people but to tell them what they think is the all-important story and the good news that, while many older cultures didn't hear about Christ, Christ has now sent his missionaries around the world to do so and of course only does it because these cultures are good and are their to be saved --  and it's part of the deeper meaning of history that they'll gradually all become part of the very big tent of the fundamentalist Jesus. And that that's something that was meant to happen from the beginning and is now coming to fruition.

And, yeah, I know that a lot of us see it completely differently and think in terms of respecting the dignity of each person's and each culture's own particular view of itself and its own beliefs. But if instead you have come to believe this story of everyone around the world seeking eternal truths in blindness until either Christ himself or the representatives of Christ -- i;e., the missionaries -- come to show them the light, then what they're doing looks like respect and not the disrespect that it seems like to you and me. And that was the view of many very bright and apparently educated and civilized western Christians for centuries -- and many of them tried to make it true using the sword, no less -- and that's where these guys, these conservatives, are getting it and it's what they're echoing. So it doesn't look disrespectful to them. To them it looks like activity to fulfill the only story they can conceive of that actually makes sense of human history.

I'm not saying that it's right. Or that it's now mainstream. Much of the world has moved on to a more enlightened view. (However, now we're faced with another real dilemma: If you respect everybody's beliefs, and they're all utterly different, how can you say that any of those beliefs are true, or privileged in any way? Respect isn't as easy as it might seem, seems to me ... For me, that's part of the wealth of evidence that says there's no such thing as a personlike god -- so how can I think I'm respecting people's beliefs, either, when I think this... and yet somehow I feel as if I try to .... )

Any way, all I'm saying is that I'm pretty sure these are their premises, and they're not just making spelling errors or historical errors. .........I just don't think you can understand what people are doing without understanding what their premises are. And if you ever wanted to try to dissuade somebody from this kind of thinking behavior, you'd absolutely have to know their premises. That's both a practical necessity, if you want to confront their misguided ideas, but it's also a matter of respect. When I ask them to respect Navajo religious beliefs to at least some degree, I can't then go around and not respect their core beliefs at least to the extent of trying to understand what they are.

Sorry. But, as usual snark, just doesn't cut it for me when it comes to evaluating any of these people. I really don't belong in a forum like this.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Arwen Evenstar]

Churchie, your posts are among my favorites, and I'm sure many others would say so too.

[louannems]

Sorry churches, I've had two Bourbons and I'm not following you.  But I do know what you mean about the evilness of missionaries trying to change local culture and beliefs.  I read Pearl Buck's autobiograph and she was raised in China by missionary parents. She fell away from missionary beliefs and practices .

[crazycatlady58]

Churhie, I would like to say I to enjoy your posts. You  and I have opposite  spiritual  views, but I always learn something  from you and you are always  respectful  in what you say. 

[Love2dance]

4 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Any way, all I'm saying is that I'm pretty sure these are their premises, and they're not just making spelling errors or historical errors. .........I just don't think you can understand what people are doing without understanding what their premises are. And if you ever wanted to try to dissuade somebody from this kind of thinking behavior, you'd absolutely have to know their premises. That's both a practical necessity, if you want to confront their misguided ideas, but it's also a matter of respect. When I ask them to respect Navajo religious beliefs to at least some degree, I can't then go around and not respect their core beliefs at least to the extent of trying to understand what they are.

Sorry. But, as usual snark, just doesn't cut it for me when it comes to evaluating any of these people. I really don't belong in a forum like this.

Please stay. Your posts have helped me so much to understand these people and how their beliefs affect different members of their family. Both those that stay, and those that leave. I do enjoy the snark, but I also want to understand what makes people believe and act like they do. How do they learn to hate and condemn people who don't act and believe exactly like them? Yours are among the posts I always am happy to see on this forum.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Love2dance
Punctuation

[Readalot]

churchhoney, I get it. Over the weekend I was trying to discussing the same thing about "spreading the good news of the kingdom" to my husband the atheist. I was raised a JW from birth until I left after high school. I never got baptized. But something's will be ingrained in me till the end. Please stay, I enjoy your posts. 

[Sew Sumi]

Churchie, as always, thanks for the post. I guess I am the guilty party. /prayer closet for a week

[Churchhoney]

9 hours ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

Churchie, your posts are among my favorites, and I'm sure many others would say so too.

Thanks, Arwen. I drive myself kinda nuts, though!

[Churchhoney]

8 hours ago, louannems said:

Sorry churches, I've had two Bourbons and I'm not following you.  But I do know what you mean about the evilness of missionaries trying to change local culture and beliefs.  I read Pearl Buck's autobiograph and she was raised in China by missionary parents. She fell away from missionary beliefs and practices .

I shoulda had two Bourbons! ... Yeah, Pearl Buck's parents sure did do this, didn't they? I'm always amazed when I hear how many people had grandparents or great or great great grandparents who were long-term missionaries in countries that I think of as having ancient, complex and sophisticated cultures. Strange when you think of the belief system -- and the strength of it -- that told all these people to go and tell all these people that everything they thought and did was wrong from start to finish. We're really not far off from that world in time, either, even with these 20- and 30-somethings.

Everybody: Thanks for the very kind words. Sorry that I let the inherent contradictions push me to jerkiness last night!

Edited July 13, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Churchhoney]

6 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Churchie, as always, thanks for the post. I guess I am the guilty party. /prayer closet for a week

Nope, no prayer closet for you! It's just hard to navigate the snark that comes naturally to mind, and that this place is intended to be a venue for, and all the really serious questions that are lurking behind the snarkable when it comes to these people. They're a joke in a way but they're also so much more than a joke, and the non-joke part is pretty consequential in a whole bunch of ways. You constantly point to that yourself!

[Sew Sumi]

I'm glad you saw that. What the Wallers do angers me, and I admit I am not always as coherent as I'd like to be. ?

[Sew Sumi]

Sad day. Suze Keller's IG (private) notes that her 20 year old Gothard-steeped brother just "preached" his very first sermon. Suze's approval is so weird since she left the cult in all her working single mother, bikini-wearing glory. Since she's private (and I somehow got in before she closed shop), you have to wonder how much of that indoctrination she still has to work through. I guess she's doing what she has to do to save any kind of face with her asshole parents. I wonder how Daniel (who posted that he'd take in Anna and her kids after Joshgate) and Rebekah (now divorced) stand with their parents. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

Perhaps, even though the Keller siblings don't all drink the Kool Aid, they still wish one another well. 

[Sew Sumi]

From what I can tell, most of them still relate. I have no clue about Esther, who is off on her Poisonwood Bible mission in Africa. She gave birth to her 10th kid in June. But Shrader cut ties with Gothard, so it's really hard to say where they stand. Anna has never mentioned them on the show, other than her wedding, when she met up with a very pregnant Esther (in 2008, no clue how many kids ago) at some airport.

[Churchhoney]

8 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Sad day. Suze Keller's IG (private) notes that her 20 year old Gothard-steeped brother just "preached" his very first sermon.

I'm afraid I would have a hard time containing my ... annoyance ... hilarity ... something ... sitting through these sermons by uneducated 20-year-olds. The vast majority have to be either freelance kinda meaning-free ramblings by someone who doesn't yet know anything or, essentially, sermons by mynah birds. (or a combo thereof: see Seewald, Ben)

[riverblue22]

Wouldn't it be hugely boring listening to all these sermons...everybody preaching at everybody else?  I suppose that is KJB's goal is to have a houseful of (male) preachers.  So far we've got DD, Bin, and Jeremy preaching.  I'm waiting for some Duggar boys to step up.  It won't be JD, but I think I see a future of Josh following in Jeremy's footsteps and preaching away the devil.

[Muffyn]

@Churchhoney There are two big issues with these missionaries.  One you address well of going into cultures and trying to push the one true god perspective which is a Christian god that can only be reached through Jesus.  Whatever native spirituality or cultural touch points exist, no matter how important they are to the culture, are pushed aside.  There is a very long history of doing this with both  catholic and protestant missionaries.  One way of selling the new religion was to attempt to take the existing local religion and claim it actually matches on all key points.  As an example in the early 1900s a book was published called The Ten Commandments of The Lakota.  This was an attempt to take thousands of years of Lakota beliefs and force them into 10 commandments to match those from the bible.  It was then used as a recruitment/conversion device. 

The second issue is preaching to people who already believe in the same god as the missionaries but do not  worship in the exact same way.  So they reach out to people who are already Christian and tell them they are doing it all wrong.  Their hubris is remarkable.

Whenever we see the Wallers or Bateseseses or Dullards or Bin preaching, sermonizing, missioncationing or acting as missionaries, they are doing one of these two things.  What frightens me is anyone hearing these twits and thinking, "Yeah, that makes sense!"

On a silly note, my friend Sree was in his 30s when it occurred to him his school in India was run by missionaries.  Among such groups, they seem to have been better in that they offered a full education, not just bible study.  He realized the first English he learned was from the bible and said (paraphrasing), "That doesn't  make much sense.  People don't talk like that.  No wonder it was such a hard language."  That's from a guy with now very good English who speaks six languages.  Fortunately they had English classes that used other books.   

[Arwen Evenstar]

9 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

I'm afraid I would have a hard time containing my ... annoyance ... hilarity ... something ... sitting through these sermons by uneducated 20-year-olds. The vast majority have to be either freelance kinda meaning-free ramblings by someone who doesn't yet know anything or, essentially, sermons by mynah birds. (or a combo thereof: see Seewald, Ben)

Mynah birds are actually very intelligent; the same can't be said for Bin the mouth breather.

[Sew Sumi]

Michael Bates Keilen: still not pregnant, unless she just came home to announce it to the family and try to keep it a secret for the next "season" of the show?

Edited July 15, 2016 by Sew Sumi
Not sure how that pic double posted!

[BitterApple]

Gosh, that Bradley is so freaking cute. I can't tell who Kaci looks like at this point, but I'm leaning more towards Zach. Whitney looks incredible for someone who had a baby a few weeks ago. 

I wonder if Michael was just more feverishly obsessed with getting married and now that she has the monkey off her back, she has a more relaxed attitude towards getting pregnant. I'm surprised Brandon hasn't knocked her up just to give her something to do. Michael strikes me as a Jill type where her entire day revolves around her husband's schedule. I can't see her making friends or developing hobbies on her own in Chicago. 

Edited July 15, 2016 by BitterApple
edited because AutoCorrect is kicking my ass today

[Absolom]

She was at least doing classes so that may have kept her from being quite as clingy as Jill.  Wasn't she also working as a nanny?