ElectricBoogaloo March 10, 2015 Share March 10, 2015 Suspicious of where her true loyalties lie, Klaus invites Freya to the compound in order to gain more insight into her past with Dahlia. After a series of strange visions, Rebekah begins to realize the body she's inhabiting is attempting to regain control. With Rebekah's life on the line, Marcel puts his bargaining skills to the test when he turns to Vincent, who may have some knowledge that could help them. Lastly, at the bayou, Jackson's frustrations grow after Aiden questions his leadership skills. Promo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaRvWoy6WnY Link to comment
blixie March 10, 2015 Share March 10, 2015 Holy shit balls was that Claudia Black as Dahlia?!! 3 Link to comment
festivus March 10, 2015 Share March 10, 2015 It was! I looked that shit up on IMDB I was so excited. 2 Link to comment
MissL March 11, 2015 Share March 11, 2015 What?! Claudia Black? My stupid comcast was having trouble and the preview cut in and out on Monday so I missed that...Claudia Black! Ok. Now I'm officially excited. Can we have Ben Browder too? Originals I'm really starting to love you. Link to comment
blixie March 11, 2015 Share March 11, 2015 Yaas Ben Browder is someone who could make me actually care about the Wolves. ::Hugs Farscape:: 2 Link to comment
Kaboom 2.0 March 11, 2015 Share March 11, 2015 Omg I thought she looked familiar in the original teaser clip that was shown after Tuesday's episode but it's only shown for like one second, TO's casting department deserves a raise! This show has cast so many good actors both known and perhaps unknown-to-many that I can almost, almost!, overlook what I consider it's casting fails: Phoebe Tonkin and Leah Pipes. Link to comment
ElectricBoogaloo March 15, 2015 Author Share March 15, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdVRN89C9B8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7RsmicKe3E Link to comment
missbonnie March 17, 2015 Share March 17, 2015 At this point someone, I don't care who, needs to dagger Klaus and keep him off the playing field for the rest of the season. I am beyond tired of his continual pouting, and scheming, and God complex. Seriously, stfu already! I think that between Bex, Elijah, Marcell, Davina, Haley, Jackson and the pack along with Freya they have got it covered. It makes no sense to have Klaus come all this way regarding character development and then turn around and make him the same idiot that he was for much of season one. Argh! 3 Link to comment
PinkRibbons March 17, 2015 Share March 17, 2015 I have to say I love the idea of Freya as a Lady!Klaus. Towards the end there I feel like the actors were trying to out-crazy-eye each other; it was marvelous. I wish they had left well enough alone after Klaus's one on one with Freya; adding one of his famous crazy ranting proclamations to the episode took away from how actually fiendishly smart he was the rest of the episode. The sheer fact that Klaus is so self-aware that he knows exactly how his siblings can be manipulated was delightful. I'm glad he's being sensible about Freya. I'm not glad that that moment of sense was undermined almost directly thereafter. Also -- Finn and Rebekah sharing a married couples' bodies? This show is officially testing its incest boundaries. I mean, it's not quite, but it's still creepy. 6 Link to comment
festivus March 17, 2015 Share March 17, 2015 (edited) Klaus may indeed be right about Freya but I'm so tired of his petulant behavior. This character works so much better when he's being mischievous and causing trouble that way. Dahlia cannot get here soon enough for me. I hope she takes him down about a thousand pegs. Edited March 17, 2015 by festivus 2 Link to comment
millahnna March 17, 2015 Share March 17, 2015 Claudia frelling Black. Can I get a "hell yeah"?! 4 Link to comment
lion10 March 17, 2015 Share March 17, 2015 "How can you be so certain?" "Simple...that's exactly what I would do!" Joseph Morgan has perfect comic timing :D. 6 Link to comment
rue721 March 17, 2015 Share March 17, 2015 Joseph Morgan is The Best at the [character]-has-been-drinking acting. I love how you can tell *exactly* how far Klaus is into his cups at any given time. His tipsy rant at Hayley made me laugh just because I could see Hayley getting kind of scared, and also kind of thinking, "go home Klaus, you're drunk." LOL. 2 Link to comment
AlliMo March 17, 2015 Share March 17, 2015 Joseph Morgan is a marvel. At first, I was like, "Oh, here comes Klaus with all his posturing and drama," but as JM went on, you start to realize that the more Klaus monologues and rants, the more terrified he is. He is deeply afraid of the danger his daughter is in, to the point that he truly believes that the only thing standing between her and certain hell is his ability to defend her. 2 Link to comment
rue721 March 17, 2015 Share March 17, 2015 Joseph Morgan is a marvel. At first, I was like, "Oh, here comes Klaus with all his posturing and drama," but as JM went on, you start to realize that the more Klaus monologues and rants, the more terrified he is. He is deeply afraid of the danger his daughter is in, to the point that he truly believes that the only thing standing between her and certain hell is his ability to defend her. I agree. Klaus has always done that, imo -- he will get upset, start drinking, go on a rant that's a drunken stream of consciousness litany of all his fears and how he'll make sure they won't come true (while clearly worried that he can't stop them from coming true), and during the rant, he finds some what or another to disgust everyone around him. Link to comment
raytch March 17, 2015 Share March 17, 2015 I agree. Klaus has always done that, imo -- he will get upset, start drinking, go on a rant that's a drunken stream of consciousness litany of all his fears and how he'll make sure they won't come true (while clearly worried that he can't stop them from coming true), and during the rant, he finds some what or another to disgust everyone around him. I enjoy Klaus' rants a lot, even though they are never ending and obviously no one else around him enjoys them, but I find them to be very much in character. Of course he'll be the one suspecting Freya's intentions, and yelling at everyone. I think he was also a bit jealous too. They have similar back stories. I loved his interaction with Freya, the crazy eye staring contest cracked me up too. Jackson and Haley are cute. I find their chemistry a lot more plausible than Haley and Elijah. Aiden is awesome. I like that he's not just there to be Josh's love interest. He's nicely integrated in the main plot as well. Did Cami and Not Finn have a moment? seriously? Have the writers completely given up on her? Is Davina dead? 1 1 Link to comment
paulvdb March 17, 2015 Share March 17, 2015 Is Davina dead?I think she's asleep with the other witch children that were abducted by the original owner of Rebecca's new body. Link to comment
raytch March 17, 2015 Share March 17, 2015 I think she's asleep with the other witch children that were abducted by the original owner of Rebecca's new body. Boy does it sound crazy ridiculous when you say it out loud! Don't get me wrong, it's not your comment it's just a moment of enlightenment concerning such plot 'twists' 1 Link to comment
ElectricBoogaloo March 17, 2015 Author Share March 17, 2015 Don't fret, Freya! Klaus just snapped your neck for the first time which means he DOES think of you as family! 8 Link to comment
Kaboom 2.0 March 17, 2015 Share March 17, 2015 Ha! That's what I thought as well, Electric Boogaloo, when Klaus snapped big sis' neck, "aw, you're family now, Freya." :-D Ah, the return of The Grunwald aka Genevieve LaRue. I actually smiled. She and DG just rock my world. I can usually do without Klaus' pontificating and rants but the more Freya keeps telling them that Dahlia is coming (omG Claudia Black! squee!!) the more I see him actually starting to worry about Hope's safety. I really, Really, want Dahlia to knock Klaus down off his self-imposed pedestal. Loved how Freya immediately checked for her necklace after waking up from Klaus' neck-snap, it's little things like this that I appreciate from a tv show. As much as I detest the woofs SL I really hope Jackson does not kill, accidentally or not, Aiden. He and Josh are just too cute together and Jackson obviously cares for him. Shut up, Klaus. Ya'll know how much I heart YG as Finn-now-Vincent, I'm amazed at how he moves completely differently as Vincent then he did while portraying Finn. Bravo! And two things I did not seeing coming: Davina being captured and used by Eva and Vincent and Eva as a married couple. Whoa. 1 Link to comment
ElectricBoogaloo March 17, 2015 Author Share March 17, 2015 Even though I know Hayley was smart to be quiet and just let Klaus rant because there is no point in trying to reason with him when he's in one of his moods, part of me wanted Hayley to remind him that all this talk about "my daughter" and "my decision" was ridiculous since Hope has TWO parents, not one. For people who know that attacks are imminent (from the witch parents as well as from Dahlia), they seem pretty lax about safety. Apparently they think it's okay for Rebekah to wander around alone right after the Grunwald threatened her and they are totally fine leaving Hope unattended despite the fact that Freya keeps telling them that Dahlia will try to take her. Ha, I laughed when Marcel said that Klaus is the smartest person he knows. I think he got "smartest" mixed up with "most paranoid." Link to comment
MissL March 17, 2015 Share March 17, 2015 Ha, I laughed when Marcel said that Klaus is the smartest person he knows. I think he got "smartest" mixed up with "most paranoid." True I laughed at that line too, except in this case I did find Freya a bit suspicious and was beginning to think maybe Klaus is smart on this one. She said EXACTLY the right things to Rebecca and Elijah, and then when she's alone with Klaus she talks about trying and failing to protect her child, again absolutely perfect button to push for Klaus. While he's ranting about Freya I kept thinking the writers have to make him right sometimes right? I absolutely think there is more to the story. How did Freya get away? It seems like in the past Dahlia is always there so how has Freya hidden from her? And if the story Freya told IS true does anyone think maybe her child is actually alive somewhere because I find it suspicious the all powerful witch wasn't powerful enough to save a baby from poison. 2 Link to comment
Artsda March 17, 2015 Share March 17, 2015 Finn and Rebeckha, husband and wife? Eww. 1 Link to comment
lion10 March 17, 2015 Share March 17, 2015 Finn and Rebeckha, husband and wife? Eww. The incest theme has to be intentional by this point, there's too many coincidences for the writers to not know what they're doing. 1 Link to comment
rue721 March 17, 2015 Share March 17, 2015 Even though I know Hayley was smart to be quiet and just let Klaus rant because there is no point in trying to reason with him when he's in one of his moods, part of me wanted Hayley to remind him that all this talk about "my daughter" and "my decision" was ridiculous since Hope has TWO parents, not one.." I was thinking the same thing about Hayley also being Hope's mother, while Klaus was ranting. But to be fair, the last time we've seen Hayley and Klaus interact, iIrc, is when Hayley said that if Klaus tries to hurt Jackson or take control of the wolves, he'd never see her *or Hope* ever again. So I can see why he wouldn't be thinking of themselves as a team in this! Plus, he was obviously freaking out and I don't think that he was trying to deny Hayley anyway. I think he was just trying to tell her, in his incredibly obnoxious, disrespectful, "Klaus"-kind-of-way that he *really truly honestly* was worried about losing her. That he isn't just trying to use her as a pawn to get control of the wolves from Jackson, etc, that he's actually scared for her. That's also why I think he was genuinely appalled when Freya used her miscarriage to manipulate him. I actually don't think that he would use Hope as a pawn or to manipulate someone like that -- not because he'd "stand on principle" but because he genuinely wouldn't want to put Hope at risk. Something that makes me believe that Klaus's first priority genuinely is keeping Hope safe is actually how he stays away from her as much as he can. I think he's worried that he himself is a danger to her, and doesn't like exposing her to that danger. I absolutely think there is more to the story. How did Freya get away? It seems like in the past Dahlia is always there so how has Freya hidden from her? And if the story Freya told IS true does anyone think maybe her child is actually alive somewhere because I find it suspicious the all powerful witch wasn't powerful enough to save a baby from poison. Yes, this is what I thought, too. I understand completely WHY Freya would want to get away from Dahlia! But I don't understand HOW. And Freya was just going on and on and on about "why," while eliding "how" completely. Which did make me suspicious, tbh. But Elijah is right, I think -- treating her as an ally who hasn't yet earned their trust probably is the best course. There's no use in making sure that there's obvious bad blood between her and them right from the get-go. What I'm wondering about is Freya's nascent alliance with Mikael. Which she wasn't mentioning to her siblings aside from Finn, iIrc (and she sure shut Finn up pretty fast, in the previous episode! Which makes me consider that he knows something that she doesn't want him telling). 1 Link to comment
blixie March 17, 2015 Share March 17, 2015 True I laughed at that line too, except in this case I did find Freya a bit suspicious and was beginning to think maybe Klaus is smart on this one. Haha yes, I was wavering between oh FFS Klaus this is why I root for Hayley to betray you, Davina to kill you, Marcel to ignore you, and of course the bastard has a point about Freya (she helped Finn try to kill Hope, we know this even if they strictly do not). She is absolutely witholding her real end game. OH and I also think her child must be alive, though how Dahlia would conceal that from Freya I don't know, and obviously during their year of wakefulness they aren't attached at the hip, but wouldn't the point of taking her child be to bring him into the fold. So yeah I am thinking maybe her kid has been "with" them all along and she's actively looking to swap him out for Hope. Klaus had two great lines about how he suspects Freya is manipulating them because it is what he would do, and that his siblings are too forgiving/naive evidenced by their continually giving him new chances. Other than that though I thought this as another weak episode, they spent a lot of time on Eva/Bex and Vincent, and instead of finding WHY they other witches are after her ass, Vincent's big bombshell is she's my wife, these last couple of episodes I've felt like a giant exposition pause button/holding pattern. Just get Claudia Frelling Black on my screen full time already! 2 Link to comment
Impish Dragon March 17, 2015 Share March 17, 2015 Claudia frelling Black. Can I get a "hell yeah"?! *delurks* HELL YEAH! Just get Claudia Frelling Black on my screen full time already! Just cuz it needed repeating. Now if only they could get Ben Browder as well. I like the concept of Freya, and I want to see how this plays out, but for some reason the actress is just not doing it for me. She's not bad per se, just not feeling her like I feel the other Originals. *shrugs* *goes back to lurking* 2 Link to comment
immortalfrieza March 18, 2015 Share March 18, 2015 (edited) Other than that though I thought this as another weak episode, they spent a lot of time on Eva/Bex and Vincent, and instead of finding WHY they other witches are after her ass, Supposedly they're after her because Eva goes around kidnapping kids and turning them into magic batteries so they are trying to stop her. However, if all they wanted to do was stop her then I don't see why they didn't just kill Eva all those years ago instead of sticking her in that witch asylum. I find it far more likely they want to exploit her in some manner. So... why don't they just have Rebekah go back into her old body or some other body and then kill Eva? If they bury her off ancestral grounds they wouldn't even have to worry about her becoming an ancestor and pulling a back from beyond the grave like Esther did. He may be a dick about it, but Klaus is quite right not to trust Freya, I know I wouldn't. She has absolutely no proof of anything she's saying beyond her own word, and the fact that Rebekah or Elijah buy anything that comes out of her mouth without a shred of evidence is ludicrous. Even with proof there's no way of knowing whether Freya doesn't have her own plans for Hope even if she's been completely honest. Edited March 18, 2015 by immortalfrieza Link to comment
justmehere March 18, 2015 Share March 18, 2015 Since Freya keeps talking about how unkillable Dahlia is, how exactly is she planning to do the deed, even with the others' help? So much dancing around and repetitious conversation, and no one bothered to ask that question. Link to comment
Impish Dragon March 18, 2015 Share March 18, 2015 Group tackle? *snort* You do realize that that is far to simple a plan for this group right? That is, of course, if they can agree on a plan of how to tackle her. Link to comment
ElectricBoogaloo March 18, 2015 Author Share March 18, 2015 (edited) Klaus would spend twenty minutes pontificating about who should tackle from which angle and berate them all for not accepting the genius of his strategy. Then he would suggest a plan that requires 75 separate steps as an alternative before flouncing off to pout about how unappreciated his plans are. Edited March 18, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo 1 Link to comment
immortalfrieza March 18, 2015 Share March 18, 2015 (edited) Since Freya keeps talking about how unkillable Dahlia is, how exactly is she planning to do the deed, even with the others' help? So much dancing around and repetitious conversation, and no one bothered to ask that question. I'm not surprised the Freya is hesitant to divulge the specifics, the writers want to make sure that they can just pull whatever they want out of their butts to solve things and having Freya actually explicitly state what needs to be done would jeopardize that. It's rather standard for these writers to be as vague as possible with every plot point they can because it allows them to act like they actually have a plan for everything and are not just making everything up as they go along. However, if Freya is truly being on the level about everything, knowing how these things usually go on either of these shows I'm guessing it'll turn out that truly killing either Freya or Dahlia will kill the other and thus by the time they find this out everybody will be so devoted to Freya at that they'll come up with some convoluted plan that lasts several episodes to find a way to kill Dahlia without killing Freya, while Klaus and even Freya herself will beg everybody else to do the sensible smart thing and just kill her already. This will of course lead to some recurring character having something horrible happen if not dying that could have easily been avoided if they had done the smart thing. Edited March 18, 2015 by immortalfrieza 1 Link to comment
Tarasme March 18, 2015 Share March 18, 2015 This episode literally revolved around talking. Ugh. Even wolf fighty time was spent talking. Please light and breath, can the production team please find a means to provide exposition that isn't "hi, we'll have a lunch/meeting/ therapy/talky time and talk about much talking there was in the last thousand years? And then there was sleeping... and sob-bee talking. And then arguing that was really talking. Thankfully Devina didn't get much time talking. Fortune shown on her, she gets to spend awhile majickally knocked out in a warehouse somewhere. I hope she's not dreaming about talking. 2 Link to comment
TrininisaScorp March 19, 2015 Share March 19, 2015 Oh good! In my estimation, this was better to me than last week. I feel like we are back on track...only to go off new episodes for another couple of weeks. Sigh. Klaus is such a child! I think Joseph Morgan does very well to tease Klaus' real issues within the guise of stupid, dramatic, drunken antics. He's worried for Hope. Got it. I'm with many of you: Haley was smart in that situation b/c she knows how Klaus is, but it is her child too. She's the one that was forced into labor and killed after having her newborn ripped away. She's also allowed to be worried and have a say in her daughter's care and protection. I was interested to hear Freya's side of her story. I wonder what Daliah's version of these events looks like. I also wonder what Freya's motivation really is and if she's being forthright. Man, I love that actor that plays Vincent! Vincent is played every bit as awesome, yet so very different than Finn. The Vincent-Eve/Finn-Becky thing should be all kinds of weird. I'm finding I like Cami much more when her role in episodes is like this one. Keep her away from romancing the Mikelson men and I think she'll be fine. I'm not spoiled, so I don't know what they are going to do about Kol. I know they have many fish to fry, but I'm a little sad we haven't picked that up a bit more. Maybe more towards the end of the season. Link to comment
lion10 March 19, 2015 Share March 19, 2015 I think the Originals is the most diverse show on the CW. A ton of black and creole actors, prominent gay characters who aren't defined by their sexuality, powerful men and women with agency and both genders struggling with the trauma of their past. I also like the strong theme of parenthood and the massive influence they can have on a child's life, biological or adopted. Those things really help enhance an already interesting premise. 1 6 Link to comment
Impish Dragon March 19, 2015 Share March 19, 2015 I seem to recall someone (Jackson and/or Klaus I believe) making a comment during the ep that the wolves were testing their new abilities. But do we know which abilities they got from Haley. I know the marriage was done so that the wolves wouldn't have to turn, but the show seemed to imply they got more. Makes me wonder if they got her increased strength, speed, senses or even her immortality. Link to comment
pookymama March 19, 2015 Share March 19, 2015 My daughter thinks that Dahlia hijacked Eva's body first and she is the one fighting for control with Beks. Makes sense, Eva and Dahlia are both powerful witches who's prey of choice is unattended/kidnapped children. Vincent had no idea his body had been hijacked or that 9 months have passed, but "Eva" has been waking up and fighting for control after only a couple days/weeks with Beks in her? 4 Link to comment
peachmangosteen March 20, 2015 Share March 20, 2015 (edited) I think the Originals is the most diverse show on the CW. A ton of black and creole actors, prominent gay characters who aren't defined by their sexuality, powerful men and women with agency and both genders struggling with the trauma of their past. I also like the strong theme of parenthood and the massive influence they can have on a child's life, biological or adopted. Those things really help enhance an already interesting premise. I agree with all of this. It's probably the biggest reason why I love this show. Whoever cast Yusaf Gatewood is a genius. He is SO good. This episode was much better than last week so I'm happy about that. Edited March 20, 2015 by peachmangosteen 1 Link to comment
gik910 March 21, 2015 Share March 21, 2015 I am so glad that they decided Beks should not be alone, but maybe think about actually looking for the kids that the witches say are missing. Like, someone at some point has told them what Eva was actually doing, right? She is using the kids as a battery, so clearly she is getting stronger... I did love Klaus' giant sigh when Haley said we need to talk. Cami didn't suck. That's something. Link to comment
driedfruit March 21, 2015 Share March 21, 2015 (edited) Knowing this show Freya's son's death was a fake out and he'll show up at one point. Or maybe he went on to have descendants and someone we know is a secret Targaryen Mikaelson (Vincent, Davina, or some other witch we know). Rebekah was always the main reason I started watching this show and it's nice to see her returned to prominence. Maisie is so wonderful, I need her to stay as Rebekah. Hopefully there won't be too much body switching as it's been bad enough to lose my beloved Kol and Finn (not that Vincent isn't great). My heart melted at the Freya/Rebekah moment. I don't care about the retcons, I'm happy to have Mikaelson sisters. Finally a family scene not dominated by the boys. There wasn't anything I didn't love. Vincent and Cami were cute. Same as Hayley/Jackson. Too bad we haven't seen Romeo and Romeo for a while and I really miss Davina. She's barely been around since Kol. All in all, the show is still fantastic and I can't wait to see Dahlia. That ending was creepy as hell. Edited March 21, 2015 by driedfruit 1 Link to comment
Whitley Trillbert March 21, 2015 Share March 21, 2015 YG is just so magnetic and sexy as all get out. Please tv powers that be don't let this gorgeous man leave my screen anytime soon. 2 Link to comment
mac123x March 22, 2015 Share March 22, 2015 Flashback exposition... repeatedly. Boring. And wow, the woman playing Freya is a terrible actor. Her tone and inflections barely changed between casual, angry, or distraught. I think the Text-to-Voice app on my phone has greater emotional range. Add her "see I'm obviously upset since I have to wipe the Bauch and Lomb artificial tears from BOTH of my eyes!" and I was cringing every time she was on screen. Link to comment
immortalfrieza March 29, 2015 Share March 29, 2015 (edited) My daughter thinks that Dahlia hijacked Eva's body first and she is the one fighting for control with Beks. Makes sense, Eva and Dahlia are both powerful witches who's prey of choice is unattended/kidnapped children. Vincent had no idea his body had been hijacked or that 9 months have passed, but "Eva" has been waking up and fighting for control after only a couple days/weeks with Beks in her? Cassie didn't know what she was doing while Esther possessed her either, and who knows with whoever it is that Esther and Kol were possessing. The one thing in common with all of those and not with Rebekah is that all the other witches that got their bodies taken over were body jumped by other witches, while Rebekah isn't. Maybe Eva's bursting through because there isn't anywhere near as much resistance involved? Or perhaps Eva is just much stronger than Cassie and Vincent, who knows. Edited March 29, 2015 by immortalfrieza Link to comment
blixie March 29, 2015 Share March 29, 2015 hile Rebekah isn't Rebekah is a witch, she just seems to have the least knowledge/experience about how to harness her power, but yeah Eva is clearly just super extra powerful because she was using the same trick Finn did (other witches as batteries to supercharge). One thing I'm confused about is if Finn is no longer drawing on Esther's power is she still immobilized by the Papa Tunde spell? And what the hell happened to Mikael? Or did she "wake up" too? I can't remember how that spell was broken last year. Link to comment
immortalfrieza March 29, 2015 Share March 29, 2015 Rebekah is a witch, she just seems to have the least knowledge/experience about how to harness her power, Rebekah is not a witch, she's only an original vampire. One cannot be both a witch and a vampire at the same time in this universe. She is only able to use magic right now because her consciousness is riding in a witch's body, if she went back into her old body she'd lose the ability. Link to comment
xtwheeler April 2, 2015 Share April 2, 2015 I thought the Mikaelsons were witches by virtue of being the children of a witch. She hijacked that by making them vampire, but I seem to recall that they had latent witchy woo. Link to comment
blixie April 3, 2015 Share April 3, 2015 They absolutely do, but it's not clear if their current powers are located in their supernatural spirit or in the bodies of the witches they jumped, or some combination thereof. Again all the Mikkaelsons jumped into witches and all of them save Esther died vampires, so Bex is not unique from Kol or Finn in that respect (vampire existence to mortal witch existence). She is unique only in that her vampire body did not die, and she never went to the other side, she went from a vampire body to a mortal witch body. That is why I interpret the issue being Bex and the rest are accessing their own powers (or lack thereof) and because she doesn't know shit about using hers, Eva is able to take over and sublimate Bex. I will always love this TVD/TO universe for inspiring such hilariously bizarre debates. Link to comment
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