S05.E13: Forget

[kikismom]

FWIW, I want to thank those who mentioned the presence of Jim Beam; I referred to a glass of scotch (sad trombone sound). I guess I was transfixed by Pete leaning right in Rick's face to breathe fumes on him; it reminded me at that moment of Weekend At Bernie's, when all the country-club tweedy old barf-mats come over "BERNIE AND I WENT TO HAAAHHHVAHD TOGETHER!"

[Timetoread]

I don't think it is an argument. Where our opinions differ, I think--the thing you seemed to view differently and brought up from my post--was whether this was some sort of special friendship that was something different or stronger than Rick's friendships with Glenn and Darryl. I think it isn't. I don't think we're that far apart in our views at all.

But I do realize my take on Rick and Michonne is somewhat unpopular here. :)

 

I don't think it's unpopular I just think people view things from different perspectives based on themselves.  Usually I'm the obtuse one when a dude is digging me and turning the world upside down for me, I just walk around like "La la la" until a friend is like, "Can't you tell that he's in love with you and has been chasing you for like two years now?"  I'm like "Really?  I just thought he was bored and wanted someone to talk to."  Who knows.  Like I said, for the record, I like them as a potential couple but if not, oh well, no biggie.

When he said that he never watches the show because he doesn't want to get self-conscious about camera angles and stuff in his performance, I did think, Well, that's helpful to you maybe, but do you care about the other cast members work? Did you watch The Grove for instance?

 

AL isn't in every episode or every scene; couldn't he at least have an assistant delete the scenes he is in so he could watch the hard work of other actors? He doesn't always see them do it on set because they are not all in the same place everyday. I just thought that was possibly disappointing to the actors he works with who would like to hear his feedback.

 

Are you referrring to the commentary for The Grove in which he watched it for the first time during the commentary?  I thought it was kind of funny but I do wish he would watch because it might give him perspective he doesn't have right now.

[Bad Example]

Giving him a basket, a haircut and holding his baby. Guess I missed something.

 

To me, they were all filmed as if they had meaning.  She wasn't just giving him a basket- she was cute and perky and it had "meet cute" written all over it.  The haircut seemed a little handsy with a little extra scalp massage.  As for holding the baby?  The shot was framed as if the pose had significance (she practically had an aura of the Madonna around her).  

 

In general, I don't like the cheating spouse thing, so we'll see where this goes.  It's easy to judge her as "not good enough" because she hasn't been tested by this world.  She might be tough enough and lucky enough for it, but in comparison to the other women we know, she does seem weak.  

[peach]

I think they are often full of caca.  I know Norman is FAMOUS for making stuff up.  AL goes on interviews and says that he wants Rick and Michonne should hook up.  They just like seeing how every word gets turned into something by fans.  They are funny. 

Actors also like to get "deep" about their "work" which is getting paid lots of money to dress up and play pretend.  Which is not a knock, I love movies and TV, and think it would be a great job.  But that's why I loved Jon Bernthal not giving a deep, artistic answer about that question, and just laughed and was like wtf, I don't know.  They're probably thinking that half the time, anyway.  He was also possibly stoned during those comments.  lol  He's funny IRL.

 

I love that great skit with William Shatner (from SNL, I think), where he's at a Trekkie convention and nerds are asking him all these impossibly detailed questions about an episode, and he finally starts shouting, "IT'S A TV SHOW!  HAVE YOU EVER KISSED A GIRL?!"  Of course, these days, Comic Con is a big bucks enterprise.

[Diane M]

If there was discussion on this subject, I missed it.  Where exactly is this Alexandria?  It certainly isn't part of the actual city, which is surrounded by more suburbs.  This area is rural, so is it the 'new' Alexandria?  Why must they scout for bunnies and possums to kill instead of driving their vehicles into the city to check out the Costco, Walmarts, and various large supermarkets for supplies?  Is the D.C. area so full of live people in hiding that there are no supplies left?  

 

How can this community have commerce and government when it's so small?  We haven't seen all the buildings, but it can't be very large or the wall would have taken years to build.  

 

So many questions about this place, and I hope we get some answers.

[Boofish]

In general, I don't like the cheating spouse thing, so we'll see where this goes.  It's easy to judge her as "not good enough" because she hasn't been tested by this world.  She might be tough enough and lucky enough for it, but in comparison to the other women we know, she does seem weak.  

If we are picking kickball teams, I would take her over Tara, Eugene and Father Pee Pants. My dream team would be Rick, Daryl, Michonne, Sasha, Judith and Rosita. Alternates Glenn and Maggie

[TigerLynx]

I'm becoming as paranoid as Rick and Co.  I keep flip flopping back and forth between thinking Alexandria is to good to be true, and something weird and creepy is going on there, to they are luckiest people in this ZA and they are clueless about what it is really like out there even though they send out recruiters to bring people back.

 

I do like that the group has had different reactions.  Rick, Carol, and Sasha are on the crazy train.  Glenn and Maggie are desperate to believe that Alexandria is a safe haven.  Darryl and Michonne are trying to give it a chance.

[Watcher0363]

Beth was clearly a rapist.

To be fair, that just makes Beth a predator. The worst kind of predator, young blonde and pretty. Ordinary women hide your significant others.

[catrox14]

Eh Carol is not a ninja.  She murdered two sick people who were probably not able to even get up and defend their self.  She shot a little kid in the head from behind.  She shot a huge propane tank and shot a firework at it.

 

She also has been shown to not do great at hand to hand type combat with the Walkers.  She is good if it's sneaky and with someone/thing that can't see her or are to weak to fight back.  But Carol as a bad ass like say Daryl is?  Nope.  She's just kind of psycho.  I think the kid could sneak up on her.

 

One doesn't need to be a ninja especially in the ZA to be more alert to the sounds of something following you.

 

The other part of this that's weird is that if Sam was following her to find the cookie, why is he being stealthy? I mean wouldn't most kids be incredibly excited and anxious to get said cookie as quickly as possibly, maybe a full sprint to the source of the cookie? Even yelling after her " Hey cookie lady!!!! Can I have a cookie!? I really want a cookie!" Was he being stealthy to steal said cookies?  If so he's a thief and he should be scared off from stealing the cookie.

[mightysparrow]

Agree with everything here but quoting because something is bothering me.....in context, I don't see Jessie's husband as being an asshole or being menacing. I see him as being more territorial than we're used to in our non-TWD world so to our eyes he's coming off as menacing or whatever. So far he was (mildly IMO) being a porch dick to Rick and then at the party he was awkward and sort of weirdly homo-something I mean to me the weird way he said to Rick "let me check you out" was the sort of clumsy line an in-the-closet gay person will blurt out in social situations. I don't think Pete is gay though so to me that all just came off as really super awkward and weird. Now the sneak peek for next week, THAT makes Pete look menacing but right now, meh Pete looks uptight, so what? Its the zombie apocalypse, valium is in short supply even for ASZ (and if anyone needs to take a damn chill pill it's Rick)

 

I see 'territorial' as asshole behaviour.  Your partner isn't territory.  And he was a bit of a dick to Rick when they first met and it stood out because everybody else was being so friendly to the newcomers.  But I haven't seen anything that makes him seem like a BIG asshole and certainly nothing that makes him seem abusive.

Edited March 10, 2015 by mightysparrow

[catrox14]

I have to admit that the last scene with Rick listening through the wall I was fully expecting to hear 'All Along the Watchtower' and was wondering if Rick was a Cylon. 

[morgankobi]

CDC???

What is CDC?

Carol's Damnfine Cookies, maybe?

I do not know this thing of which you speak.

</ripdarabont>

Carl's Dirty Chapeau 

 

I understand that. I'm saying that why wouldn't he go to any other adult and ask for the cookie. Why is he listening to Rick who is essentially a stranger? Because his mom was nice to him?  Bah. I just didn't buy it and it seemed not like anything a real kid would do.  I didn't even understand why Rick would tell him that if there was a chance that the kid would follow Carol at all.

 

The whole thing makes no sense the more I think about it. Contrivanceville. 

I'm sorry, but I still think this character might be on the autism spectrum. He acts very odd about his routine being upset (Rick not having a stamp) and his going through the window to talk to Carol seemed off in terms of social cues. (Please don't let this start an argument about autism!) 

Either that, or he's a typical crappy kid actor.

 

What seemed off to me is how that kid followed Carol without her hearing.

Because plot.

 

This thread has become the online equivalent of the cocktail party to me as Sasha.

 

Ouch.

Well no invitation to our book club or homemade chicken pot pie for you. And you can't sit with us, bye!

:)

[catrox14]

 

This thread has become the online equivalent of the cocktail party to me as Sasha.

 

 

 

Blame it on the episode which was all over the place and open to interpretation.  No key for you!

[AndySmith]

When they discuss their intent in a scene, they mean what they intend THE AUDIENCE to see.  Isn't that why they're acting?

 

But who says they owe us any explanation of what they may or may not have intended? They're acting because they either enjoy the simple act of acting, or the money, or whatever.

 

If they go to work, and say, my character is X, but everyone watching thinks their character is Y, maybe there's a disconnect.

 

Or maybe some people just over-analyze things to death. If anything, given how wildly divergent the opinions of the people on this site are, I don't think it really matters in the end if the actor is watching themselves or not.

Edited March 10, 2015 by AndySmith

[morgankobi]

Damn, I should have used "no soup for you!"

Directors and show runners are the ones I think should adjust if the audience is interpreting things in ways they don't like. Everything from the score to editing adds to our perception and can alter an actor's performance on screen. At some point, you create your art and let the masses interpret as they will.

Edited March 10, 2015 by morgankobi

[AndySmith]

Good points. Maybe that's how they want it?

Edited March 10, 2015 by AndySmith

[peach]

I never said they OWE us any explanations.  But the actors on this show sure spend a lot of time giving them, and go on an aftershow devoted entirely to talking about it.  It's not your typical television show.  The producers certainly seem to stoke the fires of audience participation with everything they've got.  Just speaking for myself, I think I would become curious as an actor as to how it looks to the people watching it.  I'm not demanding anything from them, I'm just curious about it.

[AndySmith]

Best to avoid the aftershow then. That's what I do. Then again, I was burned by Lost, so that's probably why I feel that way.

[kikismom]

If we are picking kickball teams, I would take her over Tara, Eugene and Father Pee Pants. My dream team would be Rick, Daryl, Michonne, Sasha, Judith and Rosita. Alternates Glenn and Maggie

Eugene would be great for soccer because he already doesn't move his arms when he runs. Maybe Tara should try darts or something where no ankles are involved. Father PP's only real skill is running; I see him in track and field. Or Reno 911.

Glenn and Maggie should be partners for the 3-legged race. (They already share the sack).

Edited March 10, 2015 by kikismom

[morgankobi]

It's a brave new world in terms of actor, creator, etc. accessibility. After shows, gigantic comic-cons, other panels, twitter, youtube extras, and on and on. Some will participate and some won't. I would venture more method actors would stay away as much as they are able to, contract-wise.

 

I would guess a show looooves when people argue and discuss their product :)

 

Eugene would be great for soccer because he already doesn't move his arms when he runs.

 

 

Bwahahah!

Edited March 10, 2015 by morgankobi

[peach]

Best to avoid the aftershow then. That's what I do. Then again, I was burned by Lost, so that's probably why I feel that way.

 

Why should I avoid it?  I have to use the after show to see if I'm getting where they're going with it sometimes.  I'm not complaining, I'm just wondering if not watching the show you're working on affects your portrayal.  Or vice versa.  I guess the writers have an uphill battle, because I can't even seem to make my posts on this understood.  

[Pete Martell]

If we are picking kickball teams, I would take her over Tara, Eugene and Father Pee Pants. My dream team would be Rick, Daryl, Michonne, Sasha, Judith and Rosita. Alternates Glenn and Maggie

 

If you pick her, just keep in mind Rick might shoot any other members who score a winning point.

[AndySmith]

I can't even seem to make my posts on this understood.

 

I get what you are saying. I just disagree with it. Or at least, don't see what the big mystery about it is. It affects some people, it doesn't affect others.

Edited March 10, 2015 by AndySmith

[kikismom]

  Is the D.C. area so full of live people in hiding that there are no supplies left?  

The population of DC Metro area is 5,800,000 roughly.

If 90% of the people are dead that still leaves more than a half million.

If 99% are dead that still leaves close to 60,000.

 

That is current population---it does not count all the morons who would think it's a good idea to head for DC  during an apocalypse of any kind because the government will take care of them (when the government would have blown that firetrap before the peons got the first evacuation orders.)

 

Yes, I would say 18 months in, most of the useable shit is gone.

 

Next time you are in WallyWorld, subtract all the perishable stuff (as well as the non-edible stuff). There really isn't that much left. That's why Wal-mart gets a dozen trucks every night. That's just to refill what was sold on a day when there wasn't an apocalypse, Hell, a good snowstorm will empty the shelves of Wal-Mart and every supermarket and that isn't the end of the world.

Edited March 10, 2015 by kikismom

[ghoulina]

The other part of this that's weird is that if Sam was following her to find the cookie, why is he being stealthy? I mean wouldn't most kids be incredibly excited and anxious to get said cookie as quickly as possibly, maybe a full sprint to the source of the cookie? Even yelling after her " Hey cookie lady!!!! Can I have a cookie!? I really want a cookie!" Was he being stealthy to steal said cookies?  If so he's a thief and he should be scared off from stealing the cookie.

 

Maybe someone sent him to follow her. 

 

I'm like the poster upthread who admits to waffling. I mostly believe Alexandria is on the up-and-up, but then my paranoia takes over and I come up with all of these wild thoughts. 

[peach]

I get what you are saying. I just disagree with it.

 

I disagree that you get what I'm saying.  ;)  But it's not that important.

[Watcher0363]

This thread has become the online equivalent of the cocktail party to me as Sasha.

 

 

Art, good or bad is always one big Rorschach test. Ever sat through an art professor slide show about an artist or a literature professor discussing some symbolism written 300 years ago, as if they knew these people. If they were to meet these people and start talking to them like they understand them. I am pretty sure most of those people would quote Rick Grimes's "You do not know me!" It was all summed up perfectly in Kurt Vonnegut's cameo in "Back to school."

[AndySmith]

 

But it's not that important.

 

Apparently not ;)

[Boofish]

I've had plenty of people follow me, get right up to me and I never noticed. I have come to the conclusion they are direct descendants of ninjas; nothing else makes sense. Maybe he didn't follow her. He could have been lurking and seen where she went and then went in. I think the word "followed" is what is throwing people off ... looks to me like he ninja'd her. As a victim of frequent ninja'ing, nothing seemed off to me. In my Elaine Benes voice "Let's face it, the kids is a real sidler"

[kikismom]

Best to avoid the aftershow then. That's what I do. Then again, I was burned by Lost, so that's probably why I feel that way.

Uh-oh; don't miss the mod's warning---don't tell people not to watch.

[kikismom]

I've had plenty of people follow me, get right up to me and I never noticed. I have come to the conclusion they are direct descendants of ninjas; nothing else makes sense. Maybe he didn't follow her. He could have been lurking and seen where she went and then went in. I think the word "followed" is what is throwing people off ... looks to me like he ninja'd her. As a victim of frequent ninja'ing, nothing seemed off to me. In my Elaine Benes voice "Let's face it, the kids is a real sidler"

Boofish,  I love you but I hate it when people have no spatial radar---I'm trying to walk somewhere and they lurch from one side to the other in front of me, as I try to go around the left sure enough, that's where they step and dig in (another Seinfeldism--"He stopped short!").

I always want to lean by their ear and yell BOO! or advise them to stay out of parking lots at night before they get their throat cut.

 

BTW, all this talk about whether he's following or he wanted a cookie or Rick told him or whatever...What kid goes out in the dark and climbs in the window for a cookie? I see another LittleHatBastard in the works.

[Boofish]

Boofish,  I love you but I hate it when people have no spatial radar---I'm trying to walk somewhere and they lurch from one side to the other in front of me, as I try to go around the left sure enough, that's where they step and dig in (another Seinfeldism--"He stopped short!").

I always want to lean by their ear and yell BOO! or advise them to stay out of parking lots at night before they get their throat cut.

 

BTW, all this talk about whether he's following or he wanted a cookie or Rick told him or whatever...What kid goes out in the dark and climbs in the window for a cookie? I see another LittleHatBastard in the works.

I'm afraid we've met before and just didn't know it :( .. that is so me 

 

The type of kid whose only worry is that the party he was at ran out of cookies even though there are walking dead people 100 feet from his house and is also unaware that his daddy is more than likely about to be on the receiving end of one of Rick's "promises" 

Edited March 10, 2015 by Boofish

[that one guy]

Where exactly is this Alexandria?  It certainly isn't part of the actual city, which is surrounded by more suburbs.

 

 

There's old downtown Alexandria right on the river, which is obviously not where there are. But the newer parts, to the west, are all exurban and subdivision-y. I don't think they are near actual unsettled wilderness, but there's actually a lot of parkland in the area. My guess is they are located next to the Dora Kelley Nature Park or the Winkler Botanical Preserve. These are surrounded by suburban sprawl and back up onto 395 - but if the population evacuated a couple years ago, you're going to have overgrown untended foliage etc. The show makes it look more wilderness-y than is probably possible so close to DC. The closest large area of undeveloped land is probably either in Maryland, or several miles to the southeast, around the Manassas/Bull Run battlefield.

[Diane M]

Thanks, kikismom.  Seems like they'd had more luck not going to a cosmopolitan area.  They should have found an unoccupied lodge around a big lake where they could fish and grow a garden.  Maybe that's for the future. 

[morgankobi]

Nothing scary and evil ever happens at cabins on lakes :)

[kj4ever]

Why should I avoid it?  I have to use the after show to see if I'm getting where they're going with it sometimes.  I'm not complaining, I'm just wondering if not watching the show you're working on affects your portrayal.  Or vice versa.  I guess the writers have an uphill battle, because I can't even seem to make my posts on this understood.  

I think it was the Abraham episode....I would have had no clue what was going on if I didn't watch The Talking Dead..

 

AB said on TTD this week that there was absolutely no romantic stuff going on between her and Rick, and that she might have had a little flicker when she passed him on the street at the end.  That's pretty much what I saw so hey, I got it right once!  

[kj4ever]

Boofish,  I love you but I hate it when people have no spatial radar---I'm trying to walk somewhere and they lurch from one side to the other in front of me, as I try to go around the left sure enough, that's where they step and dig in (another Seinfeldism--"He stopped short!").

I always want to lean by their ear and yell BOO! or advise them to stay out of parking lots at night before they get their throat cut.

 

BTW, all this talk about whether he's following or he wanted a cookie or Rick told him or whatever...What kid goes out in the dark and climbs in the window for a cookie? I see another LittleHatBastard in the works.

I cannot take another LIttleHatBastard...for real.

[tennisgurl]

Stay in the damn house, Sam!

[Yolapukka]

 

I didn't even understand why Rick would tell him that if there was a chance that the kid would follow Carol at all.

 

I took it the opposite way. Carol brought the cookies in and was seen by all, so when Rick spoke up he was running interference as to not call attention to her absence. It's not as though he pointed her out, rather he told the kid he would take care of it for him. It might have worked if poor little greedy-guts had not spotted her and taken it upon himself to follow.  How sheltered is this kid that he thought that was a remotely good idea? Why would he follow her through a window and then start going chatty Cathy on her? I think Carol handled it expediently, I don't think she handled it well however, if she'd chosen her words more carefully in the first place and not tried to get him to keep a secret, she might not have had to resort to terrorizing him with threats. I think this will get followed up on eventually. There will be a crisis and the kid will endanger himself because he's terrified of Carol.

[RedheadZombie]

I totally agree with those who said the horse was a metaphor for not only Daryl, but our whole group. Try to tame 'em and bad things happen.

 

Norman said the same in a clip on TTD.

 

This was quite the episode. It's great to see all the various interpretations of the Rick/Jessie/Pete dynamic. I think it's interesting that many people have noted that Pete may be abusive. I'm wondering if that is

a holdover of his character in the comic

because, taken at face value, his relationship with Jessie doesn't seem too tumultuous. I'll have to rewatch for the signs that she flinched/pulled away from him.

 

I don't read the comics.  For me, the tip off that the hubby will be abusive was given in two scenes.  The first when Rick encountered the dude on his porch at night.  The second by the way the guy reacted when Jessie offered to refill their drinks, and how she reacted to his reaction.   It's also an easy way to dispose of the husband and clearing the way for Rick, with Rick looking like the hero.  I do think that comic readers occasionally accidentally (?) spoil, but I don't think this is the case.

[BrokenRemote]

Count me in the group that thinks "A" stands for ANVIL. Sometimes this show is very heavy handed. WE GET IT, SHOW.

As someone who likes the idea of Richonne, and generally loves their scenes together, I can say that part of what I read into Rick/Michonne is the actors' chemistry. The way Rick looked at Michonne in the last ep made me smile because it had a warmth to it - I like to think it's because Rick lurves Mich but in reality, I think Andy is really fond of his scenes with Danai and that comes through. Also, she is the closest thing Carl has to a mother figure and any chance to push parenting duties off to someone else, Rick's gonna take it. (Just kidding. Sort of.)

I agree that the actors' chemistry definitely bleeds onto the screen. But then I think Danai has mad chemistry with anyone she shares the screen with. I see chemistry with Carl, Abe, even with Phillip. She's so good that I think either people really love working with her or she has a way of inhabiting the character that brings a kind of energy to her scenes that other actors feed off.

I see another side to actors not watching the show. If I'm a method actor then I want to pretty much be my character when I'm doing my scenes. I want to know what she knows, feel what she feels and see what she sees. If I watch the show and see scenes I'm not in (like Andrew Lincoln watching The Grove, for example), them suddenly I've seen things that my character hasn't and I've had my emotions altered.

I know they know what scenes other characters do because they get the scripts to read, but seeing it on paper isn't the same.

For example, going back to Andrew and The Grove--he knows that the things that happened in that episode were in scenes that had Carol and Tyrese. But their performances, the way it was shot, the music, they all combined to make that a powerful thing to watch. I know I cried.

So what happens if Andrew watches that and it packs an emotional wallop for him? Now Rick hasn't been through that with Carol, but Andrew has. So he's trying to get into Rick's character in a scene with Carol, but he can't get out of his head how he hurt for the character when she had to kill Lizzie. And now he has to work hard to erase that from his thoughts or it might color his performance. It just makes it all the more difficult to become Rick, who hasn't felt that sadness for Carol.

I wouldn't watch either. Not all actors are method actors, but the ones who are I can see why they make that choice. I think I read that

Andrew even speaks withRick's accent between scenes to stay in character.

Edited March 10, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[BrokenRemote]

I took it the opposite way. Carol brought the cookies in and was seen by all, so when Rick spoke up he was running interference as to not call attention to her absence. It's not as though he pointed her out, rather he told the kid he would take care of it for him. It might have worked if poor little greedy-guts had not spotted her and taken it upon himself to follow. How sheltered is this kid that he thought that was a remotely good idea? Why would he follow her through a window and then start going chatty Cathy on her? I think Carol handled it expediently, I don't think she handled it well however, if she'd chosen her words more carefully in the first place and not tried to get him to keep a secret, she might not have had to resort to terrorizing him with threats. I think this will get followed up on eventually. There will be a crisis and the kid will endanger himself because he's terrified of Carol.

What I just realized was weird was it seemed to me Rick went out of his way to say "my friend" made the cookies and not name Carol. And Sam then launched right into "Mom, his hand isn't stamped".

How did Sam know the cookie baker was Carol at all?

Also, I love the name "LittleHatBastard".

[Ocean Chick]

The thing about watching the finished product is, whether they are method actors or not, they DO watch each other in scenes that their character are not in.  They've talked about it a lot.  Like everyone showed up for Lori's death scene, even though only Maggie and Carl were "there".  And a lot of them watched various scene filming for "The Grove", as we saw a lot of interviews beforehand where other actors were urging people to tune in for that one.  So Andy watches them shoot scenes that Rick isn't privy to.  He just doesn't watch the finished product.

[RedheadZombie]

Poor Sasha, I wanted to hug her after punching "what's your favorite dinner" bitch in the mouth.

 

I wonder if part of her difficulty is, people being kind and acting like the world hasn't fallen apart, remind her of Tyreese.  She now knows for a fact that that kind of person can't survive.  The difference is, this type of person can survive when protected in a community versus struggling on the road.  I understand Sasha, but what does she expect this woman to do?  At this point, Sasha is just as useless, if not more so.  She's going out and deliberately attempting to draw walkers.  That's far more dangerous than a woman whose value to the group is feeding them.

 

I think Deanna is scary because I think it's possible that she's not deluded.  She knows exactly or close to it what's been going on out there and she sees this as an opportunity to recreate the world the way she wants it to be.  ASZ seems a little Stepford-y to me.  Not just the women, i don't mean that, but everybody.   

 

I'm not seeing Stepford yet.  I elaborate below, but remember how everyone reacted after the Woodbury residents were brought to the prison.  Daryl was walking around giving high fives as his fans groveled at his feet.  They were feeding the newbies BBQ and inviting them in to share living quarters and limited resources.  I don't see how that's much different from how the Alexandria group are greeting our gang.  They just have better resources to share.

 

I think Douchebag Congresswoman is a typical politician. She sees what she wants and has decided how things are going to be and damn her constituents.

She may know some of what's out there but she doesn't care. Everything needs to go according to her plan. And she needs to be in charge.

You can count on me. I'll have a few extra machetes stashed, too.

 

I don't see Deanna as being controlling.   She's kind of the anti-Governor as this point.  Whereas the Gov. identified threats to his power and quickly neutralized them, Deanna is recruiting people who could threaten her place.  I love that this place is lacking the typical patriarchal spin.  Deanna's hubby contributes in a valuable manner, but he doesn't seem to want to challenge her role.  Deanna not only assigns Rick to a position of authority, but puts Michonne in the role as well.  Rather than the squad of hitmen the Governor had (Merle, Martinez, etc), an upbeat barista is in charge of valuable supplies.  Now I realize that Terminus had a female leader as well, but I would argue that she was simply the maternal figurehead, while Gareth was running the show.  It's also interesting that Deanna doesn't attempt to hide that she records the interviews of the newbies, and her husband was very open that he watched the videos.

 

I realize that this community is looking like a too good to be true Utopia, but I don't know if comic readers are accidentally (or otherwise) spoiling things.  Many of the same criticisms aimed at this town were also said about our gang at the prison.  With the number of people and the amount of time they spent at the prison, they could have dug trenches and Morgan-ized the facility, yet they didn't.  They kept their guns stored outside, and trustingly slept without securing their cells from anyone turning during the night.  Look how long it took Rick's gang to turn into this feral version.  Even right after the prison fell, Rick wasn't this wild.  After Rick escaped the Merletones in that house, he didn't suggest going back and slaughtering the whole group.  And he heard their plans to rape Michonne.  It took watching his son almost be raped, getting lined up at the slaughter trough, then watching Beth's head explode to get the group to where they are.  How could we possibly expect this new group to be on level with Rick's?

[BrokenRemote]

The thing about watching the finished product is, whether they are method actors or not, they DO watch each other in scenes that their character are not in. They've talked about it a lot. Like everyone showed up for Lori's death scene, even though only Maggie and Carl were "there". And a lot of them watched various scene filming for "The Grove", as we saw a lot of interviews beforehand where other actors were urging people to tune in for that one. So Andy watches them shoot scenes that Rick isn't privy to. He just doesn't watch the finished product.

Right, but to my point, the music, the editing, the cinematography--they all combine in the finished product to create an emotional effect. Watching scenes you'll see the work--the same scene over and over, lots of people standing around, the director yelling instructions, the edges of the "world" where the set ends. You don't see a linear story, as scenes are often shot completely out of order. You're not emotionally in the story the way you are watching the show.

My question to those who think the actors should have to watch--if they're watching the other scenes being filmed, as Ocean Chick pointed out, is that good for your purposes?

[SHOgirl]

The more I think about the kiss the more I'm disturbed by it.  That's not HIM.  Even if he was aroused by her, it's not like Rick to put his proverbial paws on a woman, cuz he wants to. 

I have to tread very carefully here so I don't seem like a rape apologist, but in my day, women had a way of letting a man know what she wanted without offering him a signed contract that it was ok to kiss her, a very subtle dance of attraction and welcome intimacy. Therefore, while I do believe Rick wanted to put "his paws"on Jessie, I also believe that, more importantly, Jessie wanted him to put his "paws" on her. A distinction which would indicate that Rick is not a paternalistic asshole who thinks he can kiss on the cheek/grope every woman he meets, but is instead a man who can read the signals Jessie was sending him loud and clear.

[BrokenRemote]

I wonder if part of her difficulty is, people being kind and acting like the world hasn't fallen apart, remind her of Tyreese. She now knows for a fact that that kind of person can't survive. The difference is, this type of person can survive when protected in a community versus struggling on the road. I understand Sasha, but what does she expect this woman to do? At this point, Sasha is just as useless, if not more so. She's going out and deliberately attempting to draw walkers. That's far more dangerous than a woman whose value to the group is feeding them.

I'm not seeing Stepford yet. I elaborate below, but remember how everyone reacted after the Woodbury residents were brought to the prison. Daryl was walking around giving high fives as his fans groveled at his feet. They were feeding the newbies BBQ and inviting them in to share living quarters and limited resources. I don't see how that's much different from how the Alexandria group are greeting our gang. They just have better resources to share.

I don't see Deanna as being controlling. She's kind of the anti-Governor as this point. Whereas the Gov. identified threats to his power and quickly neutralized them, Deanna is recruiting people who could threaten her place. I love that this place is lacking the typical patriarchal spin. Deanna's hubby contributes in a valuable manner, but he doesn't seem to want to challenge her role. Deanna not only assigns Rick to a position of authority, but puts Michonne in the role as well. Rather than the squad of hitmen the Governor had (Merle, Martinez, etc), an upbeat barista is in charge of valuable supplies. Now I realize that Terminus had a female leader as well, but I would argue that she was simply the maternal figurehead, while Gareth was running the show. It's also interesting that Deanna doesn't attempt to hide that she records the interviews of the newbies, and her husband was very open that he watched the videos.

I realize that this community is looking like a too good to be true Utopia, but I don't know if comic readers are accidentally (or otherwise) spoiling things. Many of the same criticisms aimed at this town were also said about our gang at the prison. With the number of people and the amount of time they spent at the prison, they could have dug trenches and Morgan-ized the facility, yet they didn't. They kept their guns stored outside, and trustingly slept without securing their cells from anyone turning during the night. Look how long it took Rick's gang to turn into this feral version. Even right after the prison fell, Rick wasn't this wild. After Rick escaped the Merletones in that house, he didn't suggest going back and slaughtering the whole group. And he heard their plans to rape Michonne. It took watching his son almost be raped, getting lined up at the slaughter trough, then watching Beth's head explode to get the group to where they are. How could we possibly expect this new group to be on level with Rick's?

I want to like this post a million times. It's so cool when sometimes you have these nebulous thoughts and while you're trying to wrap your head around them someone else comes along and lays it out in a way that makes you say "brain, why couldn't you do that?"

You're so right. Our group wasn't much further along than this not so long ago, and they'd seen, I think, a lot more than the Alexandrites have. How much did we criticize them for not doing something about the wire fence at the prison that walkers could see them through and push over? And yet now we're like "no way these people are so stupid they have the supports outside". And our group didn't have a system for sleeping safety, even though they had one pretty much ready made. They let someone turn and kill a bunch of people. And they knew what could happen. Yet we're all suspicious because these people don't lock themselves up when they sleep.

The point is, they're not so obviously too good to be true or so absolutely ill-prepared that they must be up to something.

Edited March 10, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[BrokenRemote]

I have to tread very carefully here so I don't seem like a rape apologist, but in my day, women had a way of letting a man know what she wanted without offering him a signed contract that it was ok to kiss her, a very subtle dance of attraction and welcome intimacy. Therefore, while I do believe Rick wanted to put "his paws"on Jessie, I also believe that, more importantly, Jessie wanted him to put his "paws" on her. A distinction which would indicate that Rick is not a paternalistic asshole who thinks he can kiss on the cheek/grope every woman he meets, but is instead a man who can read the signals Jessie was sending him loud and clear.

Someone posted a screen grab, I think in Rick's thread, of Jessie's face after the kiss. It was way more "come hither" than it was "get off". My best description would be a coy smile. That fits with what I saw. She wasn't upset, offended, disgusted. And intent or no, eyes or expression or whatever, Rick's touch was in the realms of social acceptability in any polite drawing room.

Edited March 10, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[AngelaHunter]

Jessie's face after the kiss. It was way more "come hither" than it was "get off".

 

That's what I've been saying. If a strange man tried made a move on me and I found it unwelcome, I would leave immediately, not stand there with a "Try harder" smile. She finds it exciting to push with one hand and pull with the other. Kind of nasty, but not uncommon, and her marriage -  her problem. Rick wouldn't be cheating on anyone and there is nobody on earth who can "steal" a happy person away from his/her partner.

[RedheadZombie]

IHMO the truth is in-between; the kiss didn't start out that way, but the eye contact afterwards definitely had some crackle going. 

Of course, part of that crackle was Jim Beam-fueled....

 

I'm wondering if people's differing opinions of "the kiss" can be partly explained by their own personalities.  I am not a huggy-touchy person, and my personal space tends to be larger than the average person's.  To me, that kiss would be incredibly intimate.  I personally believe the kiss was supposed to be a big deal.  AB revealed on TTD that AL was extremely nervous prior to filming the scene, so it would seem that he thought it was a big deal, too.

 

Something else I learned of interest on the TTD:  The horse wrangler was the same one from season one, and he was dressed as a walker in this scene.  I feel a little for that horse in real life.  They're afraid of their own shadows, and I don't think they're capable of understanding they're filming a scene for a movie.  Kind of like the poor baby actress doesn't know as she's being suffocated and threatened to have her neck broken.  You couldn't pay me enough to put my baby or pets through something like this.