S05.E13: Forget

[morgankobi]

Do we have any evidence that they know that everyone is already infected? The biggest fault I have with this show (and TV in general) is that normal conversations do not take place. Someone should be spouting everything they know about the walkers and everything else out there. But, I guess no drama. 

Especially when groups (who aren't trying to eat you) meet. Each group probably has different info and strategies they could share. One only group has been to the CDC. How many know about the virus, Morgan's pikes, walker guts, or Michonne's crazy, yet effective, puppet trick? 

Edited March 10, 2015 by morgankobi

[sidekickgirl]

It's a bit hard to avoid that part of the discussion since the show itself make Jessie and Rick a focal point of the episode.  So I can't really blame the shippers. Can one really "ship" a kid not being scarred by Carol, the cookie monster?   

YMMV, I didn't see it as a focal point.  It was there, but I found a lot of the other content just as important and highlighted.    Perhaps a rewording on Sam vs. Carol., I ship Carol and the outside of the  ASZ walls.

[Ottis]

This thread has become the online equivalent of the cocktail party to me as Sasha.

 

I don't know what this episode was about. Rick and team seem bound and determined not to fit in, and I get the difficulty in doing so. But having secret meetings and making plans to take over because ... the people there are weak? So the lesson is, our guys have gone hard? OK.

[diebartdie]

I didn't enjoy this episode very much. I was bored for parts of it, I really thought Abe ws hitting on Michonne, what Carol did just chilled me to the bone and has me wondering, how far is too far when it comes to protecting you and yours in TWD world? The shit Rick was pulling with kissing Jessie, fingering his gun while watching her walk away with her HUSBAND (who happens to be a PHYSICIAN who is WAY MORE IMPORTANT to TWD world than a freekin' former deputy sherrif!!!) and then the whole last scene at the wall just was all grossing me out. I can't believe the show wants to suddenly turn Rick into something so gross as that.

[kj4ever]

I didn't enjoy this episode very much. I was bored for parts of it, I really thought Abe ws hitting on Michonne, what Carol did just chilled me to the bone and has me wondering, how far is too far when it comes to protecting you and yours in TWD world? The shit Rick was pulling with kissing Jessie, fingering his gun while watching her walk away with her HUSBAND (who happens to be a PHYSICIAN who is WAY MORE IMPORTANT to TWD world than a freekin' former deputy sherrif!!!) and then the whole last scene at the wall just was all grossing me out. I can't believe the show wants to suddenly turn Rick into something so gross as that.

I don't know, if I had to choose between have a Doctor or having Rick I think I'd choose Rick.

 

A Doctor isn't much good if you are dead.

[AndySmith]

With regards to whether or not Rick would put up with an adult talking to Carl like that...I doubt he would.

 

Badasses seem to be in supply more the doctors, making Rick more replaceable. So I'd go for the doctor.

 

Does anyone have the link for this week's Reddit recap?

[peach]

We don't even know if he's a good doctor.  Or maybe he's a dermatologist.  Pimple Popper!!  (Seinfeld)

[BrokenRemote]

With regards to whether or not Rick would put up with an adult talking to Carl like that...I doubt he would.

Badasses seem to be in supply more the doctors, making Rick more replaceable. So I'd go for the doctor.

Does anyone have the link for this week's Reddit recap?

Nah, Carl can take care of himself. Edited March 10, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[Nashville]

Especially when groups (who aren't trying to eat you) meet. Each group probably has different info and strategies they could share. One only group has been to the CDC. How many know about the virus, Morgan's pikes, walker guts, or Michonne's crazy, yet effective, puppet trick?

CDC???

What is CDC?

Carol's Damnfine Cookies, maybe?

I do not know this thing of which you speak.

</ripdarabont>

[catrox14]

Why is Sam (reminder to self: this is not Sam Winchester, who along with Dean would be pretty damn handy for surviving the ZA) having to follow someone for cookies? Look I know kids do weird things but surely his mom or someone would have let him have a cookie if they had them. I don't buy that rationale at all.  Would he really have just skulked around after a cookie?

 

Is he so terrified of his own mother of father that he can't ask for a cookie? He can't ask anyone else for a cookie? But instead he's going to follow a complete stranger around for a cookie? Either the kid literally has never been taught to not follow strangers or the kid is a spy. I'm not buying it either way. 

 

I can buy Carl wandering away during a ZA because he's already screwed up from the ZA. But this kid following a stranger .  I actually think Rick might have been on board with Carl getting a terrifying talking too for being a dumbass.  I dunno JMO

[BrokenRemote]

The cookies were all gone. There was that whole scene where he was pouting about it and Rick said he knew the lady who made them and maybe she could make Sam some.

[mightysparrow]

There was a lot in this episode.  It wasn't all good but most of it was interesting.

 

I don't like Carol and I wasn't surprised she terrorized a child; she's done it before.  Preying on the weak in 'defense of her family' is Carol's thing.  The problem is that evil genius Carol might have really fucked up.  That kid's going to talk and when he does lines are going to be drawn.  Not just amongst the Alexandrians, who wouldn't really be a problem for Rick's group but amongst the group itself.  A lot of the group like Alexandria, or are beginning to, including Carol's pal Daryl.  They might not be so happy about how badly Carol (and Rick) have fucked up the best thing they've had in a long time.  As a likely child-abuse survivor, Daryl might have a huge problem in what Carol did to a child.

 

My heart broke for Sasha.  She must feel like she's stuck in a bad dream, at least that's what it looked like at the party.  To have gone through what she and her group have endured and to have some crazy chick babbling about her favourite dish must have been hellish.  Sonequa is doing an amazing job with Sasha.  I hadn't thought that Deanna was reaching out to her, having seen her pain, but I like that idea, especially because I like Deanna even though she seems willfully blind to the dangers outside.  People have joined their community from the outside and Aaron goes out regularly.  The fact that they don't even have someone on sentry duty 24/7 is criminal.  Deanna isn't stupid so I don't really have a handle on what her game is.

 

Speaking of games, I hope Aaron's not running one on Daryl.  He obviously sought Daryl out in the woods and created a bond between them with their 'outsider' status.  And he was obviously watching out when Daryl walked by his house.  He might have been watching out for Daryl or he and Eric might have just been sitting at home watching all the losers go to the 'mixer'.  Perhaps Aaron recognizes something in Daryl, a desire to belong.  I'm praying that Aaron and Eric can talk Daryl into a makeover.

 

I was a bit disappointed that Michonne has been a bit sidelined but I loved her scene with Abraham.  There's nothing like seeing two good actors firing off each other.  Abraham challenged Michonne and she took the challenge.  Putting her katana on the wall is a big step for Michonne and I look forward to seeing where it leads her.  I also loved the way Miss Thing did her own 'Project Runway' with that uniform.

 

I like Jessie.  She seems like a nice woman.  I also think that there is some connection between her and Rick.  But I thought Rick was WAY out of line when he kissed her.  A kiss on the cheek is nothing, but the look on Rick's face wasn't.  He MEANT that kiss.  Rick doesn't know this woman.  He doesn't know what her life is like, what state her marriage is in, what her values are.  He kissed her in front of practically everyone she knows., including her husband and children.  It was completely disrespectful.  I think Rick has lost his damn mind.

 

I never shipped Richonne (I want someone else for Michonne) but I think it's pretty clear that there is no Richonne.  If Rick wanted Michonne or Michonne wanted Rick, they'd be together.  There's nothing to stop them if they felt that way about each other.  If Rick is kissing on some other woman, it's because he wants her.  Jessie IS Rick's type.  Domestic, 'nice', soccer mom.  She lives a life that he and Lori dreamed about.  The problem is that Jessie is married and even though her husband appears to be an asshole, we don't know that he is and we certainly don't know that he's abusive.  Rick is risking not only an ass-kicking (or attempted one), he's also risking his family's place at Aleandria and he doesn't have that right.

[stretch]

Why is Sam (reminder to self: this is not Sam Winchester, who along with Dean would be pretty damn handy for surviving the ZA) having to follow someone for cookies? Look I know kids do weird things but surely his mom or someone would have let him have a cookie if they had them. I don't buy that rationale at all.  Would he really have just skulked around after a cookie?

 

Is he so terrified of his own mother of father that he can't ask for a cookie? He can't ask anyone else for a cookie? But instead he's going to follow a complete stranger around for a cookie? Either the kid literally has never been taught to not follow strangers or the kid is a spy. I'm not buying it either way. 

 

I can buy Carl wandering away during a ZA because he's already screwed up from the ZA. But this kid following a stranger .  I actually think Rick might have been on board with Carl getting a terrifying talking too for being a dumbass.  I dunno JMO

They don't have eggs (find some chickens, dumbasses), so the conceit behind him trailing a stranger through the dark was that it had been forever since anyone had cookies, because no one knew that you could use applesauce as an egg substitute. The kid was jonesing for cookies, apparently.

[AndySmith]

Pimple Popper!!  (Seinfeld)

 

Cancer curer!! (Seinfeld)

 

Nah, Carl can take care of himself.

 

Depends on the adult. And the point isn't whether Coral can defend himself or not, it's how Rick would react to him being threatened.

Edited March 10, 2015 by AndySmith

[catrox14]

The cookies were all gone. There was that whole scene where he was pouting about it and Rick said he knew the lady who made them and maybe she could make Sam some.

 

I understand that. I'm saying that why wouldn't he go to any other adult and ask for the cookie. Why is he listening to Rick who is essentially a stranger? Because his mom was nice to him?  Bah. I just didn't buy it and it seemed not like anything a real kid would do.  I didn't even understand why Rick would tell him that if there was a chance that the kid would follow Carol at all.

 

The whole thing makes no sense the more I think about it. Contrivanceville. 

[BrokenRemote]

I understand that. I'm saying that why wouldn't he go to any other adult and ask for the cookie. Why is he listening to Rick who is essentially a stranger? Because his mom was nice to him? Bah. I just didn't buy it and it seemed not like anything a real kid would do. I didn't even understand why Rick would tell him that if there was a chance that the kid would follow Carol at all.

The whole thing makes no sense the more I think about it. Contrivanceville.

We don't know who else he asked. It's obviously front and center in his brain, him being a kid, and he probably whines about the cookies being all gone to anyone he meets. I didn't think he asked Rick for a cookie, though, and I'm confused by you saying why didn't he ask someone else for the cookie--he seemed to already know they were all gone. It didn't seem contrived to me at all. Just normal kid "I didn't get what I wanted" behavior.

Eta here's a transcript of the scene. He does ask his mother. He doesn't seem especially afraid of her:

Sam: Mom, there's no more cookies.

Deanna: Oh.

Rick: Well, I happen to know the cookie maker. She's a good friend of mine. And I might be able to see about her making a whole batch just for you.

Sam: Mom, he doesn't have a stamp.

Edited March 10, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[catrox14]

ETA: Yes I realize that in all of the dumb things this show does in the middle of the zombie apocalypse I'm probably irrationally annoyed by the cookie incident. It just feels so completely contrived to either paint Carol as the witch in Hansel and Gretel or to keep us not trusting the ASZhats or to show that somehow Rick has sway with Jessie's child for no really good reason? I mean what if Michonne sent him off on the cookie chase? Would Sam have listened to Michonne?  Bleh.

 

 

 

didn't think he asked Rick for a cookie, though, and I'm confused by you saying why didn't he ask someone else for the cookie--he seemed to already know they were all gone.

 

To be fair, I've only watched the episode once so maybe I missed something subtle, but it seems to me that a regular kid might pout about cookies being gone but would still keep asking around in the hopes that that it's not true.

 

Even without that, Rick volunteering that Carol has the cookies and then the kid is just going to wander off to follow her the cookie lady doesn't work for me.  YMMV  

 

ETA: IMO it's setting up a division between Rick and Carol again when Jessie inevitably tells Jessie that the mean lady that is Rick's friend said mean things to Sam.  Although on the plus side it might just drive a wedge between Jessie and Rick. 

Edited March 10, 2015 by catrox14

[peach]

I just want to know if we're facing numerous instances of "WHERE'S SAM!"  Jessie's certainly on her way to replacing Lori.

[BrokenRemote]

What seemed off to me is how that kid followed Carol without her hearing.

[catrox14]

What seemed off to me is how that kid followed Carol without her hearing.

 

That's another reason why I think the kid is a spy. He knew how to skulk quietly....it seems.

[Dobian]

I love Carol.  I was hoping she would strangle him and then dump him out the gate for the walkers to eat, stage it like the kid decided to sneak out for a hike outside.  But the gruesome story was great.  Nosy little bastard.  I love how faux civilization is making Rick/Carol/Sasha insane, with all the house parties and Stepford wives.  Poor Buttons.  Why is it more horrifying watching a horse get eaten than a person?  Maybe because when filming the scene the horse really thinks he's actually about to be eaten.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Dobian

[Nashville]

The cookies were all gone. There was that whole scene where he was pouting about it and Rick said he knew the lady who made them and maybe she could make Sam some.

 

My problem with this bit?  The timing. 

Carol had already slipped out of the party several minutes before the Cookie Monster showed up.

How did he get on her trail?

If Carol had taken her shot at the "armory" window immediately after leaving the party, she would've been inside before the kid even started looking for her.

If Carol wandered around for a bit first (to ensure she wasn't being followed/shadowed), that would make KPP trailing her unseen doubly unlikely.

[Bad Example]

 I didn't even understand why Rick would tell him that if there was a chance that the kid would follow Carol at all.

 

 

My impression was that Rick told him in order to stop him from following Carol, since Rick knew exactly why Carol shouldn't be followed. The problem was that he didn't keep the kid away long enough for Carol to disappear before the kid could trail her.

 

But I agree with the previous poster.  The timing of it does seem off.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Bad Example

[sadie]

I'm not sure anyone else has said this, so I will. Upon seconded viewing of the ep and the scene where Rick kisses what's her name on the cheek. It occurred to me- is Rick pushing the boundaries with her to see if she will go along as in he knows they are using Jesse as bait and he wants to test his theory that these people are not what they seem. We've alrady gotten a glimpse from jesse's husband. The first time Rick encountered him he seemed menacing, then at the cocktail party he is all "come by my office for a friendly check up". Part of why I'm loving this story arc is I can't fully tell on either side what is really going on, both CDB and the A's. I'm looking for clues on both sides. Even Rick at the end touching the wall with the walkers on the other side, we could be misreading it and all it means is he knows what's really on the other side of the wall where the A's are oblivious.

And could the W stand for Worker? Maybe our friendly A's used people to build their wall and the killed or excited them. Perhaps that is their dirty little secret?

[AndySmith]

Funny enough, Sam didn't even know Carol was a Master Baker until Rick pointed it out to him...so the only reason he followed Carol in the first place was because of stupid tipsy Rick.

[catrox14]

I'm not sure anyone else has said this, so I will. Upon seconded viewing of the ep and the scene where Rick kisses what's her name on the cheek. It occurred to me- is Rick pushing the boundaries with her to see if she will go along as in he knows they are using Jesse as bait and he wants to test his theory that these people are not what they seem. We've alrady gotten a glimpse from jesse's husband. The first time Rick encountered him he seemed menacing, then at the cocktail party he is all "come by my office for a friendly check up". Part of why I'm loving this story arc is I can't fully tell on either side what is really going on, both CDB and the A's. I'm looking for clues on both sides. Even Rick at the end touching the wall with the walkers on the other side, we could be misreading it and all it means is he knows what's really on the other side of the wall where the A's are oblivious.

And could the W stand for Worker? Maybe our friendly A's used people to build their wall and the killed or excited them. Perhaps that is their dirty little secret?

 

 

That was my first thought that Rick was playing games with Jessie.  And I agree it was ambiguously played by AL that I wasn't sure what was what.  But I suppose it could be that Rick is both playing her/testing her and maybe attracted to her as well.

[AngelaHunter]

Two horses in two years of the ZA and almost 5 seasons is a pretty low average.

 

We forgot about the horse at the prison that Michonne rode around. I'm pretty sure it ended up as walker chow as well.:(

[kj4ever]

That's another reason why I think the kid is a spy. He knew how to skulk quietly....it seems.

Eh Carol is not a ninja.  She murdered two sick people who were probably not able to even get up and defend their self.  She shot a little kid in the head from behind.  She shot a huge propane tank and shot a firework at it.

 

She also has been shown to not do great at hand to hand type combat with the Walkers.  She is good if it's sneaky and with someone/thing that can't see her or are to weak to fight back.  But Carol as a bad ass like say Daryl is?  Nope.  She's just kind of psycho.  I think the kid could sneak up on her.

[Timetoread]

Where I think we differ is that I don't see Rick and Michonne's friendship as a special relationship. He's shown he trusts her, respects her abilities and opinions, but I don't think we've seen that he does so any more than he does Glenn or Daryl or that she and Rick are closer than he is with those two.

 

I've turned off ship mode so that you know that I am answering this based on what I saw, not what I hope.  I do think their relationship is "special" in non Daryl or Glen ways.  Michonne is pretty much the ONLY person in the group he emphatically hands his children to, not to babysit but to protect.  She was with him when the Joe and the Gang incident happened.  They had that little "I'm ok, I know, How, Cuz I'm ok too" moment - with Daryl present.  He pretty much chooses her to roll with him on every single mission, sometimes with Daryl, sometimes with Glenn, sometimes with Carl, but always at least her.  He listens to the group but he REALLY listens to her and if she wants it, he goes along with it.  It's not by accident that she was assigned to be his deputy.  It's not by accident that it is the two of them who wake up and worry together in the middle of the night.  Mark my words, when ASZ goes to crap, there will be some sort of meaningful conversation or confrontation involving Rick and Michonne.

 

From a shippy POV, I see that as a man and a woman who make a compatible couple.  Turning off the ship I see a very tight friendship or even a best friendship - almost akin to Rick and Shane.  People get territorial here but I don't think that acknowledging this friendship negates other relationships.  I have several friends, a few to whom I am very very close and who I'd ask for and lend money to; who'd come help me if I was sick; who'd I'd ride with and fight with if we lived in that type of world; who I talk to about what's going on in my life and how I feel about it.  But my BEST FRIEND knows what's going on with me just by looking at me.  She wouldn't just lend me money to pay my bills, she'd have me move in with her and her husband.  If I had a child, SHE'D be the one I'd allow to own my kid in my stead and I know she'd protect my kid with her life. I'm ok, if she's ok and vice versa.  I see this in Michonne and Rick and it could go either way as far as I'm concerned.   

[kikismom]

 I don't remember what Unfair Wolves is, probably because I had taken my Ambien before I read it the first time.  Hmmmm........come to think of it, I took an Ambien before typing this.  Maybe I should quit while I'm ahead.

OH! please rethink that! My mom took Ambien and did such crazy stuff---that she had no memory of----we had to take it away. She could have killed someone driving a car while she was essentially sleepwalking. She lit the stove while sleepwalking, etc etc. Now I will worry about you! :-)

 

Thankyouthankyouthankyou.

This, in quadruple spades. I was beginning to wonder if I was the only person on the planet who saw it that way. What I saw:

• Rick hears a rattle of metal.
• Fearing the worst - a walker has gotten through - he charges over to (hopefully) close the breach and stem the bloodbath which would inevitably follow if a herd got in amongst the ASZhats.
• Rick gets there to find... nothing. A walker came up against the Wall - but the Wall held with no problem, and the walker is simply jostling against it with no effect.
• Rick feels something close to a sense of wonder at the stark realization: unlike so many in the past, this is a Wall which WORKS

 

Yesyesyes! He touches it and it is solid. That's how I saw it...his bliss at a solid wall.

Some thoughts on "the kiss". I've seen it mentioned that Rick hasn't experienced much nurturing since Lori but I'm not so sure I agree with that.  Michonne was nurturing towards him and Carl once she began to trust them and him here. The house they holed up in became their little home until it was ruined by the Claimers

 

I don't think they made that house their little home...Rick and Carl were there a couple of days;

Michonne shows up, the next morning at breakfast she and Carl leave to go scavenging and the Claimers come, Rick escapes, warns Michonne and Carl off with a wave, and they hit the road.

Michonne was there less than 24 hours.

It became an overnight rest stop but that's about it.

 

I do notice something about the nurturing---I did feel Michonne comforted Carl...and then you should re-watch the back eight so far.

I keep re-watching the newest episodes, and it is very striking that Michonne had enough of the road which is reasonable. She wasn't the only one.

 

But in Shirewilt Estates she says we could take down those trees and rebuild the wall, and Rick makes this sneer that I haven't seen since Season 1 and 2 where "the menfolk" made these little condescending faces at the women having guns or ideas or anything. At that early point it was very macho and dismissive of the women being able to contribute (except, you know, ironing.)

 

Now watch when they get to the barn, and Michonne wants to go to ASZ. Then Maggie pipes up assent. Rick gets this face like they are really stupid and annoying and finally says okay. Then Rick goes out to the car and Michonne says when you said okay we'll go was that real? Or did you just say that to find out where this man's camp is?

 

No matter what nurturing she did or didn't do before, Michonne is more Lori in Rick's eyes than Jessie.

I know everyone is calling Jessie the new Lori for her domestic wifey life, okay fair enough.

But Michonne is the other side of Lori.

Lori in the hallway at Herschel's house, Lori in the car, Lori on the dirt drive at the farm, Lori on the side of the road away from the Greene farm.

In RIck's POV.

I believe he still respects her as a valuable part of the group; but she's second-guessing his decisions, she's arguing his plans, she's asking him to do things he doesn't want to, she's not supporting his every idea.

 

I didn't say she was wrong to do it.

 

I am saying a man who had a wife that started constantly questioning his judgement doesn't really get hot for another woman who does that.

Even if she's right.

Even if he was being bat-shit crazy.

 

When she says that line in the barn---"You're sure of what you know. But I'm not!"---that was a not-good moment.

 

People can say what they feel about blondes or flirty or whatever...I see a man who just met a woman who goes along with what he says and doesn't debate, just accepts without question. No matter what she looked like I think that's what he was in the mood for.

[diebartdie]

I like Jessie.  She seems like a nice woman.  I also think that there is some connection between her and Rick.  But I thought Rick was WAY out of line when he kissed her.  A kiss on the cheek is nothing, but the look on Rick's face wasn't.  He MEANT that kiss.  Rick doesn't know this woman.  He doesn't know what her life is like, what state her marriage is in, what her values are.  He kissed her in front of practically everyone she knows., including her husband and children.  It was completely disrespectful.  I think Rick has lost his damn mind.

 

I never shipped Richonne (I want someone else for Michonne) but I think it's pretty clear that there is no Richonne.  If Rick wanted Michonne or Michonne wanted Rick, they'd be together.  There's nothing to stop them if they felt that way about each other.  If Rick is kissing on some other woman, it's because he wants her.  Jessie IS Rick's type.  Domestic, 'nice', soccer mom.  She lives a life that he and Lori dreamed about.  The problem is that Jessie is married and even though her husband appears to be an asshole, we don't know that he is and we certainly don't know that he's abusive.  Rick is risking not only an ass-kicking (or attempted one), he's also risking his family's place at Aleandria and he doesn't have that right.

Agree with everything here but quoting because something is bothering me.....in context, I don't see Jessie's husband as being an asshole or being menacing. I see him as being more territorial than we're used to in our non-TWD world so to our eyes he's coming off as menacing or whatever. So far he was (mildly IMO) being a porch dick to Rick and then at the party he was awkward and sort of weirdly homo-something I mean to me the weird way he said to Rick "let me check you out" was the sort of clumsy line an in-the-closet gay person will blurt out in social situations. I don't think Pete is gay though so to me that all just came off as really super awkward and weird. Now the sneak peek for next week, THAT makes Pete look menacing but right now, meh Pete looks uptight, so what? Its the zombie apocalypse, valium is in short supply even for ASZ (and if anyone needs to take a damn chill pill it's Rick)

[kikismom]

Funny enough, Sam didn't even know Carol was a Master Baker until Rick pointed it out to him...so the only reason he followed Carol in the first place was because of stupid tipsy Rick.

heh heh you said masterbaker

[SHOgirl]

He wasn't just getting a boner for her - he got in her personal space, kissing on her without her permission, and he then nearly killed her husband. I don't think it's restrictive to expect men to not behave this way. He put her, himself, and his children in danger.

It's always fascinating to me how different people can see the exact same thing and interpret it so differently. While my personality admittedly does not lean toward the overly dramatic, I have a hard time seeing how anything that occurred could be construed as Rick nearly killing someone's husband. Not that Rick isn't going off the rails; that's entirely possible. But I've grown accustomed to very poor writing on this great show. I've noticed that, in scenes past, we offer a variety of possible explanations only to learn from TD that the intent was to convey some completely different thing not one of us even conceived of. I do wonder why this show has its hooks in me so deep. Maybe I'm waiting (hoping?) for new writers in the hopes that the show might, one day, live up to its potential.

[AndySmith]

heh heh you said masterbaker

 

The capital letters were used for a reason ;)

 

I do wonder why this show has its hooks in me so deep

 

Great car accidents are sometimes hard to look away from...

Edited March 10, 2015 by AndySmith

[BrokenRemote]

I've turned off ship mode so that you know that I am answering this based on what I saw, not what I hope.  I do think their relationship is "special" in non Daryl or Glen ways.  Michonne is pretty much the ONLY person in the group he emphatically hands his children to, not to babysit but to protect.  She was with him when the Joe and the Gang incident happened.  They had that little "I'm ok, I know, How, Cuz I'm ok too" moment - with Daryl present.  He pretty much chooses her to roll with him on every single mission, sometimes with Daryl, sometimes with Glenn, sometimes with Carl, but always at least her.  He listens to the group but he REALLY listens to her and if she wants it, he goes along with it.  It's not by accident that she was assigned to be his deputy.  It's not by accident that it is the two of them who wake up and worry together in the middle of the night.  Mark my words, when ASZ goes to crap, there will be some sort of meaningful conversation or confrontation involving Rick and Michonne.

 

From a shippy POV, I see that as a man and a woman who make a compatible couple.  Turning off the ship I see a very tight friendship or even a best friendship - almost akin to Rick and Shane.  People get territorial here but I don't think that acknowledging this friendship negates other relationships.  I have several friends, a few to whom I am very very close and who I'd ask for and lend money to; who'd come help me if I was sick; who'd I'd ride with and fight with if we lived in that type of world; who I talk to about what's going on in my life and how I feel about it.  But my BEST FRIEND knows what's going on with me just by looking at me.  She wouldn't just lend me money to pay my bills, she'd have me move in with her and her husband.  If I had a child, SHE'D be the one I'd allow to own my kid in my stead and I know she'd protect my kid with her life. I'm ok, if she's ok and vice versa.  I see this in Michonne and Rick and it could go either way as far as I'm concerned.   

 

He also handed Judith off emphatically to Beth and to Tyrese.   I can't think of missions where he's gone off with just Michonne, though, aside from the one where she and Carl got the photo of Lori, and he took her then because he didn't know if he could trust her.  What other missions am I forgetting that he singled Michonne out to go with because of their special bond?  They had one moment where they each acknowledged they were ok?  I don't get how that is in the slightest significant.  Maybe if I shipped them I'd see it as some soul-bonding connection, but that moment didn't make an impression on me. I've seen closer conversations between lots of people on this show.  Again, not saying I don't think they're friends.  Just that I don't think they have a special friendship above or more close than any other friendships on the show or that Rick has.

 

Glenn and Abe woke up and worried together in the middle of the night one time too (as many times as Rick and Michonne), and I don't see anyone reading a thing into that.

Edited March 10, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[peach]

I agree that this show often thinks it's communicating things that are not getting across.  It was interesting to me to hear the other day that Andy Lincoln doesn't watch the show.  Norman Reedus does, he watches it when we all do, and I think that's what makes him so good at his promotion of the show, and his fan interactions.  But if main characters don't watch the final product as it unfolds to the viewer, then how can they really know how what they're doing is translating?  The final edit makes a difference to the whole piece.  Sarah Wayne Callies would give interviews about Lori that would leave me scratching my head.  I wonder if she watched it herself.

 

A funny moment about motivations came in an interview once with Jon Bernthal.  People were asking about the meaning of the lone walker shambling through the field when Shane and Rick were driving back from 18 miles out (IIRC), which is a profound and melancholy image they still use, and he hemmed and hawed for a second, and then laughed and said, "I don't know what the fuck it means."  Sweet, sweet honesty.  It's just a TV show.   Fans (including myself) think way more about it than the people making it, I'm sure.  lol

 

In fact, I thought that image of the lone walker poignantly mirrored Shane being alone in the world, due to his own nature.  But I guess Shane didn't think so.  lol

 

[AndySmith]

Glenn and Abe woke up and worried together in the middle of the night one time too (as many times as Rick and Michonne), and I don't see anyone reading a thing into that.

 

I'm sure some people will now...

 

But if main characters don't watch the final product as it unfolds to the viewer

 

Surprisingly, quite a few actors don't watch themselves onscreen, at all, whether they are in a TV show or in a movie. And quite a few don't watch themselves in the role on a TV until the show is over.

Edited March 10, 2015 by AndySmith

[Artsda]

 

A is for Alexandrians, anvils, and Scarlett A...anything else?

 

Anarchy?

 

A red 'A' with a circle around it was the symbol on Sons of Anarchy. Could signify the Alexadria group feeling like they're a gang tied together.

[Timetoread]

He also handed Judith off emphatically to Beth and to Tyrese.   I can't think of missions where he's gone off with just Michonne, though, aside from the one where she and Carl got the photo of Lori, and he took her then because he didn't know if he could trust her.  What other missions am I forgetting that he singled Michonne out to go with because of their special bond?  They had one moment where they each acknowledged they were ok?  I don't get how that is in the slightest significant.  Maybe if I shipped them I'd see it as some soul-bonding connection, but that moment didn't make an impression on me. I've seen closer conversations between lots of people on this show.  Again, not saying I don't think they're friends.  Just that I don't think they have a special friendship above or more close than any other friendships on the show or that Rick has.

 

Glenn and Abe woke up and worried together in the middle of the night one time too (as many times as Rick and Michonne), and I don't see anyone reading a thing into that.

 

  You see them as just friends or less, I see them as good friends.  Why is this an argument?

[SHOgirl]

Beth kissed him on the cheek once up on a time.

Beth was clearly a rapist.

[peach]

Surprisingly, quite a few actors don't watch themselves onscreen, at all, whether they are in a TV show or in a movie. And quite a few don't watch themselves in the role on a TV until the show is over.

 

I realize that, but when you're filming a continuous storyline, and the large and vocal fanbase often seems mystified by what the actors think they are portraying, maybe they should check it out once in a while.  When a movie is done, it's done.  You can't change it anyway.  And a lot of TV shows have a different story every week (like CSI or whatever).  But this is a saga, so it's somewhat different.  I just wonder if the finished product is what he thinks it is? 

They shoot a lot of stuff that gets cut, also.  So there is more material informing the actors than what we always see.  How they edit those shots of him stroking his gun, or standing by walls, etc, influence how they're perceived.  Of course, everyone seems to be perceiving it differently, so I guess it doesn't matter.

[Raven1707]

Here are the Nielsen ratings for Season 5, to date:

 

10-12-14 “No Sanctuary” 17.3 million
10-19-14 “Strangers” 15.143 million
10-26-14 “Four Walls and a Roof” 13.801 million
11-02-14 “Slabtown” 14.518 million
11-09-14 “Self Help” 13.534 million
11-16-14 “Consumed” 14.068 million
11-23-14 “Crossed” 13.329 million
11-30-14 “Coda” 14.807 million
02-08-15 “What Happened and What’s Going On” 15.643 million
02-15-15 “Them” 12.267 million
02-22-15 “The Distance” 13.438 million
03-01-15 “Remember” 14.430 million
03-08-15 “Forget” 14.534 million

 

And I'm behind again already!

[BrokenRemote]

You see them as just friends or less, I see them as good friends. Why is this an argument?

I don't think it is an argument. Where our opinions differ, I think--the thing you seemed to view differently and brought up from my post--was whether this was some sort of special friendship that was something different or stronger than Rick's friendships with Glenn and Darryl. I think it isn't. I don't think we're that far apart in our views at all.

But I do realize my take on Rick and Michonne is somewhat unpopular here. :)

[AndySmith]

Yeah, but some actors in movies choose not to watch the dailies while the movie is being filmed, while others do.

 

As for TV shows...I don't think the actors owe us anything. Their job at the end of the day is to memorize what the writers write for them, and to follow the directors instructions (unless they choose to go off-script; Knots Landing had quite a bit of that). At the end of the day, it is up to each actor to go for what they feel comfortable with, not how it makes us feel.

[kikismom]

.  I just wonder if the finished product is what he thinks it is? 

 

When he said that he never watches the show because he doesn't want to get self-conscious about camera angles and stuff in his performance, I did think, Well, that's helpful to you maybe, but do you care about the other cast members work? Did you watch The Grove for instance?

 

AL isn't in every episode or every scene; couldn't he at least have an assistant delete the scenes he is in so he could watch the hard work of other actors? He doesn't always see them do it on set because they are not all in the same place everyday. I just thought that was possibly disappointing to the actors he works with who would like to hear his feedback.

[Boofish]

I guess I'm just not that good at reading between the lines. All I've seen Jessie do so far is give Rick a basket, a haircut and hold his baby. I interpreted this as:

 

Giving him a basket, a haircut and holding his baby. Guess I missed something.

 

I'm starting to question if I actually saw Buttons get eaten by walkers or was it the horse experiencing an existential crisis whereas he was showing Daryl and Aaron what could happen when you put your trust in man and not your instincts. Or he was eaten by walkers; what do I know

[Timetoread]

I agree that this show often thinks it's communicating things that are not getting across.  It was interesting to me to hear the other day that Andy Lincoln doesn't watch the show.  Norman Reedus does, he watches it when we all do, and I think that's what makes him so good at his promotion of the show, and his fan interactions.  But if main characters don't watch the final product as it unfolds to the viewer, then how can they really know how what they're doing is translating?  The final edit makes a difference to the whole piece.  Sarah Wayne Callies would give interviews about Lori that would leave me scratching my head.  I wonder if she watched it herself.

 

A funny moment about motivations came in an interview once with Jon Bernthal.  People were asking about the meaning of the lone walker shambling through the field when Shane and Rick were driving back from 18 miles out (IIRC), which is a profound and melancholy image they still use, and he hemmed and hawed for a second, and then laughed and said, "I don't know what the fuck it means."  Sweet, sweet honesty.  It's just a TV show.   Fans (including myself) think way more about it than the people making it, I'm sure.  lol

 

In fact, I thought that image of the lone walker poignantly mirrored Shane being alone in the world, due to his own nature.  But I guess Shane didn't think so.  lol

 

 

I think they are often full of caca.  I know Norman is FAMOUS for making stuff up.  AL goes on interviews and says that he wants Rick and Michonne should hook up.  They just like seeing how every word gets turned into something by fans.  They are funny. 

[Samx]

Count me in the group that thinks "A" stands for ANVIL. Sometimes this show is very heavy handed. WE GET IT, SHOW. 

 

As someone who likes the idea of Richonne, and generally loves their scenes together, I can say that part of what I read into Rick/Michonne is the actors' chemistry. The way Rick looked at Michonne in the last ep made me smile because it had a warmth to it - I like to think it's because Rick lurves Mich but in reality, I think Andy is really fond of his scenes with Danai and that comes through. Also, she is the closest thing Carl has to a mother figure and any chance to push parenting duties off to someone else, Rick's gonna take it. (Just kidding. Sort of.)

[peach]

Yeah, but some actors in movies choose not to watch the dailies while the movie is being filmed, while others do.

 

As for TV shows...I don't think the actors owe us anything. Their job at the end of the day is to memorize what the writers write for them, and to follow the directors instructions (unless they choose to go off-script; Knots Landing had quite a bit of that). At the end of the day, it is up to each actor to go for what they feel comfortable with, not how it makes us feel.

That wasn't what I meant.  It's not about "feelings."  I do not complain if the actors don't make me feel the way I want to feel.  I'm talking about their stated intent. When they discuss their intent in a scene, they mean what they intend THE AUDIENCE to see.  Isn't that why they're acting?  It's not a stage play in their back yard.    This isn't a matter of preference.  If they go to work, and say, my character is X, but everyone watching thinks their character is Y, maybe there's a disconnect. 

 

My point was that maybe if AL saw some of the product as a whole, he would be surprised HIMSELF as to how it was presented exactly.  Maybe not.  I was just wondering.  Plenty of actors have expressed dismay at how the final cut of a film turned out, and how it affected the presentation of their own work in it.  That may be why SOME of them don't watch the finished product, because they have no control over how it turns out.

 

[Bad Example]

OH! please rethink that! My mom took Ambien and did such crazy stuff---that she had no memory of----we had to take it away. She could have killed someone driving a car while she was essentially sleepwalking. She lit the stove while sleepwalking, etc etc. Now I will worry about you! :-)

 

 

No!  I found NurseGigi's ambien-fueled post very entertaining, and it's all about me me me!  (I loved that a point she really dwelled on was that they needed to prioritize some winemaking and moonshine production.  More ambien for NurseGigi!)  

Edited March 10, 2015 by Bad Example