S03.E06: Born Again

[RedheadZombie]

Old Dracula is a special kind of manipulative evil. He played both of them like chess pieces. Or did he? I'm thinking Phillip smells a rat.

 

The tug of war over making Paige a spy, Gabriel's manipulation of both Elizabeth and Philip - and them not realizing it , Elizabeth realizing Paige isn't as naive as she thinks, and that they really are a lot alike (both stubborn and dedicated to a 'higher cause', Philip masterfully buying more time with not seducing Kimmie.

 

I just don't know about Gabriel.  Old Dracula is a perfect name for him.  I don't know how FL does it, but he manages to be warm and loving, as well as so sinister.  I don't like him and I don't trust him.  He was introduced as the mentor that Elizabeth and Philip truly loved and trusted.  I don't know yet if this is how Gabriel has always been, but I definitely believe that Philip knows something is off.  Elizabeth continues to trust Gabriel implicitly, which again shows how blind she is in her militant beliefs.

 

Gabriel's like a spider in his lair.  Claudia always met them in public, and was blunt and to the point.   This guy invites them in and manipulates them like a pro.  He feeds them and plays games with them.  And I get the impression that he will always side with Elizabeth over Philip.  I also believe that he all but threatened to have Philip's supposed son killed, if Philip doesn't do as instructed.

 

I trusted Claudia, and I want her back.  I liked how she irritated Elizabeth.

[Umbelina]

I think I'd call Elizabeth's beliefs "patriotic" rather than militant.

 

Again, I always flip the scrip with this show, and imagine it from the POV of Philip and Elizabeth as undercover CIA in Russia.  It makes the "who is wrong?" thing so much more interesting for me.  I still wonder if Philip would be the one people didn't like as much if his loyalty to the USA and democracy was shaky, and Elizabeth the more liked one since she'd be the True Blue American.

[RedheadZombie]

As I've said before, Stan is supposed to be the Javert/Hank Schrader of the show, so the show needs him. But they went too far with the pathos.

 

Responded in Stan's thread.

[RedheadZombie]

I think I'd call Elizabeth's beliefs "patriotic" rather than militant.

 

Again, I always flip the scrip with this show, and imagine it from the POV of Philip and Elizabeth as undercover CIA in Russia.  It makes the "who is wrong?" thing so much more interesting for me.  I still wonder if Philip would be the one people didn't like as much if his loyalty to the USA and democracy was shaky, and Elizabeth the more liked one since she'd be the True Blue American.

 

Even if I flipped the script I would view Elizabeth as militant.  Anyone grooming their fifteen year old to betray their own country (and be victimized in the process) is a true fanatic, in my opinion.  That's not too many steps away from strapping a suicide bomb on a teenager, and telling her she's a martyr for the cause.

[Sienna]

In that case it's a week to Christmas. Would there really have been no festive decorations anywhere? I know Christmas wasn't as ott 30+ years ago but I was just turned 4 and I remember our tree being up a week already at that point. Did decorations go up later in America?

 

I don't know if the shopping season was quite as rabid back then, but it was definitely in full swing for weeks before the holiday.

I remember going to see the window decorations on State Street in Chicago right after Thanksgiving. At home, we put our decorations up the day after Thanksgiving (though not all of the families I knew did it that early).

[Umbelina]

A thought just occurred to me.  Was Gabriel, very, very subtly also threatening Philip's son? 

[BW Manilowe]

I think those previews were for upcoming episodes in an effort to goose the horrible ratings, not just the next episode. I don't know how that helps the ratings, unless they expect word of mouth to drive more viewers to the series.

As for Nina, it is hard to have any feelings for her at this point. I get that she had to cozy up to her cellmate and gather info. I don't care how guilt ridden Nina is by that betrayal, I just don't like her.

On to Stan, who seems to be in limbo for like, forever. The writers have really wasted that character. There has to be more going on with Stan than just his social life. I really don't care about who he is dating, or the status of his marriage.

Over to Philip, who really does not want to get intimately involved with Kimmie. He really is able to draw a line at how far he is willing to go without being pushed. He may have to go there, but only as a last result. Philip is very much different than Elizabeth.

Elizabeth comes off as uncaring and is willing to do what she needs to do regardless of the consequences. I do think that Elizabeth is pushing her daughter too fast, and probably too late in life to be part of the cause. Children naturally rebel as teenagers, I have no clue how Elizabeth is going to be able to control Paige, who has chosen a different path in life.

Did they ever find that bug that Martha planted? I know it was a long time ago, and not much has been mentioned about it.

I'm almost positive there was a voiceover at the beginning of the preview that actually used wording so you'd understand the scenes you were about to see would be from more upcoming episodes this season than just the episode airing next week.

Edited March 6, 2015 by BW Manilowe

[sistermagpie]

Again, I always flip the scrip with this show, and imagine it from the POV of Philip and Elizabeth as undercover CIA in Russia.  It makes the "who is wrong?" thing so much more interesting for me.  I still wonder if Philip would be the one people didn't like as much if his loyalty to the USA and democracy was shaky, and Elizabeth the more liked one since she'd be the True Blue American.

 

 

Answering in the Philizabeth thread...

[mjc570]

Maybe I've watched/read too much spy stuff, but when the FBI agent gave Stan the paper with the names of the FBI agents killed, I was sure he was passing Stan a note warning him about Martha, especially since the immediately proceeding scene (I think) was the FBI guy telling Martha that the mailbot had no more classified files.

[Kitla]

In that case it's a week to Christmas. Would there really have been no festive decorations anywhere? I know Christmas wasn't as ott 30+ years ago but I was just turned 4 and I remember our tree being up a week already at that point. Did decorations go up later in America?

 

The fictional crash isn't necessarily supposed to be the actual crash that happened in real life. 

[CarpeDiem54]

A thought just occurred to me.  Was Gabriel, very, very subtly also threatening Philip's son?

I definitely think he was threatening Philip's son. "Sleep with Kimberly and do what I want or I'll ruin your son's life. No matter what a great loyal soldier he is."

Frank Langella is great as Gabriel. He's made me really distrust and dislike the character.

[Dev F]

The fictional crash isn't necessarily supposed to be the actual crash that happened in real life. 

 

True, there's always room for artistic license -- after all, there wasn't really a guy named Dave on the plane who worked with Stan Beeman. But the only way that works as an explanation here is if the series skipped over Christmas at some point in the past couple episodes. Up to this point the chronology has been clearly anchored to significant current events during the last two months of 1982, from the death of Leonid Brezhnev on November 10 to the passage of the Boland Amendment on December 8.

[pasdetrois]

 

Grown ass adults getting out of control.  It was just a doll with a birth certificate.  People used to fight over those damn things.  I never understood it.

 

I scored the impossible-to-find Shredder during the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle madness. Bought it from the back of a truck on K Street a few days before Christmas.

[Janc]

I don't know how useful that bug that was planted in Kimmy's father's briefcase is going to be, it seems that the briefcase is always left in his office rather than being taken with the father to work! 

[Haleth]

Kimmie's dad has to be the worst CIA agent in the history of the CIA if he doesn't realize that his daughter is bringing people into the house and smoking pot whenever they are out. 

 

I have to admit it's becoming a chore to watch this.  The Kimmie storyline makes me uncomfortable and the larger recruit Paige story is disturbing.  It's horrible that a mother would take her young, idealistic child and begin to groom her to live the life of a spy (even though I'm sure it happened in real life).  I'm finding both Elizabeth and Philip very unlikable now.  I guess I'll stick it out to the end of the season, but won't be upset if it's cancelled.

 

Matthew Rhys has a silly giggle.

[Bannon]

Kimmie's dad has to be the worst CIA agent in the history of the CIA if he doesn't realize that his daughter is bringing people into the house and smoking pot whenever they are out. 

 

I have to admit it's becoming a chore to watch this.  The Kimmie storyline makes me uncomfortable and the larger recruit Paige story is disturbing.  It's horrible that a mother would take her young, idealistic child and begin to groom her to live the life of a spy (even though I'm sure it happened in real life).  I'm finding both Elizabeth and Philip very unlikable now.  I guess I'll stick it out to the end of the season, but won't be upset if it's cancelled.

 

Matthew Rhys has a silly giggle.

Disturbing but fascinating is a good thing in drama, and the way Elizabeth is written and acted is disturbing, fascinating, and very good,. Phillp as well, although the fact that he has the remnants of a conscience that doesn't entail fealty to the Soviet State makes him less disturbing, but it also means there is conflict with Elizabeth, which is a good thing for dramatic purposes. It woud be a bad drama which was not disturbing, and had, as the two central characters, two espionage agents for a totalitarian state founded by Lenin and Stalin, which murdered many dozens of millions of innocent civilians within the span of a few decades. These are anti-heros or villains, every bit as much as Walter White. The point is to make them interesting anti-heros or villains, and this is where the show succeeds best, it seems to me.

 

Your first paragraph I think rightly points to one of the elements where the writers have gone badly astray, for reasons I have already discussed in these forums. 

[Dowel Jones]

Philip could easily string this out with a secret engagement, and staying pure until Kimmy is 18 and they can marry.

 

Unless Kimmie  takes an interest in evangelical Christianity, and drags Philip to a meeting at Paige's church, where.......awkward!.

 

Nina sure has a cold, cold heart.  Plus, I don't think the KGB is going to release her.  It would have made more sense to come and remove her from the cell and then release her, leaving the other woman there alone, if that were the case.  Anyway, if she really was spying for someone, it would likely be known to someone who would eventually negotiate for her release (one hopes).

 

Elizabeth is so blinded by tunnel vision that she expects that anyone who disagrees with the American government automatically falls in line with The Cause.  If she dumps that on Paige, it's going to be a major, irrevocable stab in the heart to their family dynamic.  I'm surprised that she doesn't take after Philip's path with Martha, and lead Paige into believing they are working for a third, non-aligned country in the interests of maintaining world peace. 

 

Flashback to the 80's; I remember my Walkman.  Play button (clack!).  Stop button (clack!).

 

I can't help but notice the interior decorating of the P/E house, and wonder how much grief that caused in the accounting department at Moscow Centre.  "What do you mean, you want a brass headboard for the bed?  And a Sealy mattress?  Why do you need 7 throw pillows and a complete kitchen set of pots and pans?  $200 for a pair of boots?"  It was tough being a Communist in the 80's.

[Boundary]

I might be the only one but I'm beginning to suspect that Nina was the one being played. It was all to easy and totally unsubtle for this show. So far, onscreen at least, it's only been Nina confessing, confessing, confessing... with only a steak and red wine to show for it. That grab from the cell was way too dramatic. I won't be surprised if it turns out as it played - besides, we need Nina back, don't we? But I'd be more impressed if that stunt was Oleg's father just trying break through Nina's facade, with some success I might add.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Boundary

[5cents-worth]

There was a question upthread regarding the value of the information Nina learned from her cellmate. The woman had been claiming that she had no knowledge of what she was doing when she made the drop, just doing a favor for her boyfriend. She revealed to Nina that she knew exactly what she was doing...but did it anyway for love. Stupid girl, it might cost her her life.

 

And showed that Nina hasn't changed at all - she will do what is best for her in that moment, without regard for anyone else.  Smart, but untrustworthy.  Also, when she was eating the steak, what was she shoving in her mouth with her fingers?  Crisped onions? Cabbage?  I couldn't tell, but she was sure enjoying them.

 

I'd rather take a bath (solo or with Rhys- heh) than listen to Pink Floyd too. Why do dudes think that stuff  is an aphrodisiac?

 

It's the combination of harmony, synthesizers, pseudo-profound lyrics, and weed.  Worked since time immemorial (or at least since the 70's.)

 

Multiple scenes of Philip sneaking around Kimmie's house or Elizabeth in the car with the young operative don't resonate as strongly for me without seeing what the "other side" is also doing. As of late, we see that there are conversations about the mail robot.

 

Maybe that's the real Chekov's gun in this show.  Martha discovers who Clark really is, and crushes him under her one true love, Mailbot. 

 

 

A thought just occurred to me.  Was Gabriel, very, very subtly also threatening Philip's son? 

 

Oh, definitely.  And it may be a threat based on a lie, which is very well played.  One of the things this show does very well is make the viewer doubt everyone's honesty. Is the Milky Way defector a plant?  Does Phillip have a love child from the 60's? Did his former lover really flee the Soviets? Everyone and everything is suspect, and I love/hate it.

[sistermagpie]

So far, onscreen at least, it's only been Nina confessing, confessing, confessing... with only a steak and red wine to show for it.

 

 

But Nina didn't confess anything the KGB didn't already know so it wasn't really a confession. Only Evi confessed something real.

 

I'm surprised that she doesn't take after Philip's path with Martha, and lead Paige into believing they are working for a third, non-aligned country in the interests of maintaining world peace.

 

 

Elizabeth wants/needs (and the Centre, too, wants) a person actually working for the KGB. Using Paige like Martha doesn't get her anywhere in terms of getting to be honest with Paige or share a cause with her. Also I think Elizabeth would actually object to that the way Philip does, because then she'd see herself using her daughter as a tool. This way she thinks she's doing what a mother would.

[attica]

Worked since time immemorial (or at least since the 70's.

 

Wow: you and I will just have to disagree on that one.

[Helena Dax]

 The actress who plays Nina  is just gorgeous. I loved that last shot, when she was sitting on her bunk. I don't hate her for bertraying that poor girl. Nina really loves her country: no way she was going to put Evi above the USSR and  her own life. Also, Stan and  Oleg might be trying to save her, but she's just proved she's able to save herself, thank you.  

 

The parallels between Philip-Kimmie and Elizabeth-Paige were huge in this episode. And while I think Elizabeth's making a mistake, I must say I'm impressed by her first move. I thought Elizabeth was going to be blunter. But of course, she's a pro, and she's done this several times. Chilling.

 

Stan bores me to death. Again. He always looks like he's about to break and start crying/shooting himself. The new guy's more interesting. He's obviously going to play a role in Martha's fate  and I can't wait to know what happens there.

[ferretrick]

I don't enjoy watching a grown man, however reluctantly, seduce and emotionally manipulate a 15 year old girl. Statutory rape does not entertain me. If this story line goes on much longer, I'm out.

[Bannon]

 The actress who plays Nina  is just gorgeous. I loved that last shot, when she was sitting on her bunk. I don't hate her for bertraying that poor girl. Nina really loves her country: no way she was going to put Evi above the USSR and  her own life. Also, Stan and  Oleg might be trying to save her, but she's just proved she's able to save herself, thank you.  

 

The parallels between Philip-Kimmie and Elizabeth-Paige were huge in this episode. And while I think Elizabeth's making a mistake, I must say I'm impressed by her first move. I thought Elizabeth was going to be blunter. But of course, she's a pro, and she's done this several times. Chilling.

 

Stan bores me to death. Again. He always looks like he's about to break and start crying/shooting himself. The new guy's more interesting. He's obviously going to play a role in Martha's fate  and I can't wait to know what happens there.

I think they might be wise at this point to kill Stan off, given the problematic nature of redeeming, in terms of drama, a character they have pretty throrougly botched. Do we really get anything useful in the scenes with Stan and P & E togehter? Time for an FBI reboot, it seems to me. 

Edited March 6, 2015 by Bannon

[Bannon]

I don't enjoy watching a grown man, however reluctantly, seduce and emotionally manipulate a 15 year old girl. Statutory rape does not entertain me. If this story line goes on much longer, I'm out.

This response puzzles me. Do you you find it more enjoyable to watch wholly innocent people murdered ?  Yes, it is very disturbing to see Phiip working on the sexual exploitation of a 15 year old. Its supposed to be very disturbing. Does very disturbing ruin drama?

 

I have issues with the show for other reasons, but the frank portaryal of the bad acts of an antihero isn't one of them. 

Edited March 6, 2015 by Bannon

[Umbelina]

Yeah, this show makes you think like a spy. 

 

TRUST NO ONE.  (not even your spouse!)

 

I commented on Stan in his thread.

[rubyred]

I feel like it's a problem on many shows, not just this one, when an actor is popular the show then jumps through narrative hoops to keep them on the show. I liked Nina as much as anyone, but scrambling for ways to keep her on the show has felt tacked on and inauthentic to me. Not just because getting info from some random Belgian chick is the "price" for her freedom, but because it beggars belief that the girl would fall for it. Nina's out eating steak, and Belgium doesn't notice? Sorry to be gross, but they're using the same toilet/bucket.

 

Even though I do think Elizabeth's recruitment of Paige is going to be an unmitigated disaster, I did sort of enjoy that she showed sheltered Paige a more gritty reality about civil protests. It's not all picketing with your pastor, it's also about hoping to create a better society for everyone, and particularly those who live in the area that Paige was so uncomfortable in. I didn't put that well but I'm sure you guys got what I'm trying to say.

 

I used to wonder if Phillip and Irina's son was Hans...unbeknownst to him. But that would be too soapy. And anyway Irina looked far too young to have a grown son. Kudos to Phillip for sliding out of the Kimmie situation by invoking Jesus. He's lucky she's young enough to buy that line of crap. I really don't think this show is going to go that far (actual sex) with Kimmie and Phillip, it would destroy any goodwill he's building up by trying to protect Paige. But I love watching him manipulate Kimmie, he is note-perfect.

[sistermagpie]

Even though I do think Elizabeth's recruitment of Paige is going to be an unmitigated disaster, I did sort of enjoy that she showed sheltered Paige a more gritty reality about civil protests. It's not all picketing with your pastor, it's also about hoping to create a better society for everyone, and particularly those who live in the area that Paige was so uncomfortable in. I didn't put that well but I'm sure you guys got what I'm trying to say

 

 

I actually did really like her speech. I can sympathize with her listening to Pastor Tim get held up as a big hero and use metaphors like "front lines" and wanting to be like yeah, actually if you think this stuff is cool I am so much cooler than you.

 

I used to wonder if Phillip and Irina's son was Hans...unbeknownst to him. But that would be too soapy. And anyway Irina looked far too young to have a grown son

 

 

Irina and Philip's son (if he exists) is grown. He's 20. She got pregnant when they were teenagers. But he's also Russian, not South African. (Don't ask how she's allegedly raised a son while also being undercover in Canada. Or why she allegedly lied to Philip about being pregnant to keep from ruining his career yet went on to have the same career as him while deciding to have the baby.)

 

The show really never has operated under a conversation of character law when it comes to these things. 

 

He's lucky she's young enough to buy that line of crap.

 

 

I could see plenty of adults falling for it too.

Edited March 6, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

I didn't believe Irina then, and I don't believe Gabriel now.  I think the son is fiction, but anything could happen there.

[julieandcj]

Anyone else think that Kimmie is going to commit suicide? I keep getting that feeling. 

[Bannon]

Anyone else think that Kimmie is going to commit suicide? I keep getting that feeling. 

That would be an awful,  and awfully credible, plot development, that would drive the internal conflict within Philip though the roof. In other words, if written well, it would be a good way to propel many characters into behavior that would be interesting to see .

[Ellaria]

I don't enjoy watching a grown man, however reluctantly, seduce and emotionally manipulate a 15 year old girl. Statutory rape does not entertain me. If this story line goes on much longer, I'm out.

 

 

This response puzzles me. Do you you find it more enjoyable to watch wholly innocent people murdered ?  Yes, it is very disturbing to see Phiip working on the sexual exploitation of a 15 year old. Its supposed to be very disturbing. Does very disturbing ruin drama?

 

I have issues with the show for other reasons, but the frank portaryal of the bad acts of an antihero isn't one of them. 

 

I think that very disturbing does ruin drama for some. Each us has our own definition of tolerance for what we want to see portrayed on a TV show. Some will be turned off to the sexual exploitation of a teenager. Others will be turned off to dropping a car on a DIY mechanic. There are many reasons why this show has not built a stronger base of loyal viewers as well as why viewers seem to declining this season. The so-called "bad acts of the anti-hero" could be enough to drive some viewers away. It may not be enough to drive you or me away but, IMO, it is perfectly understandable why some are quitting. I don't find it puzzling at all.

 

Frankly, I'm turned off by some questionable narrative arcs for Stan, Nina and Oleg. For me, they began as promising characters and now I'm just completely bored by their story lines.

[Umbelina]

So far though, he hasn't seduced her, and frankly, is doing everything humanly possible to stop her from having sex with him.  If not him, she would have probably found another old guy with less kindness to replace "daddy."

 

I still think talking about marriage when she's 18, and staying pure until then could work for him. 

[Rosieroo]

 

Also, when she was eating the steak, what was she shoving in her mouth with her fingers?  Crisped onions? Cabbage?  I couldn't tell, but she was sure enjoying them.

I saw them and thought "French Fries??-- surely not."  

[Bannon]

I think that very disturbing does ruin drama for some. Each us has our own definition of tolerance for what we want to see portrayed on a TV show. Some will be turned off to the sexual exploitation of a teenager. Others will be turned off to dropping a car on a DIY mechanic. There are many reasons why this show has not built a stronger base of loyal viewers as well as why viewers seem to declining this season. The so-called "bad acts of the anti-hero" could be enough to drive some viewers away. It may not be enough to drive you or me away but, IMO, it is perfectly understandable why some are quitting. I don't find it puzzling at all.

 

Frankly, I'm turned off by some questionable narrative arcs for Stan, Nina and Oleg. For me, they began as promising characters and now I'm just completely bored by their story lines.

Well, then you have to explain the extreme popularity of shows like "The Sopranos" where nearly every depravity known to man or woman is engaged in by the main characters, and the shows gets more viewers every year, until it is done. Why didn't that disturbing stuff dirve viewers away, more than it attracted them?  

 

I think the show has rating problems because they have made errors in the show's writing (I agree with your last sentence wholeheartedly) and perhaps promotion, but based on the popularity of other shows witth disturbing material, it's tough for me to conclude that disturbing material is in and of itself an issue.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Bannon

[sistermagpie]

So far though, he hasn't seduced her, and frankly, is doing everything humanly possible to stop her from having sex with him.  If not him, she would have probably found another old guy with less kindness to replace "daddy."

 

 

It's funny that it's not unusual for guys to make jokes about how it's the ultimate hot fantasy to have some teenage girl throwing herself at him. It's also easily played for laughs on sitcoms, especially raunchy ones (the nicer one would have a sweet ending where the guy gave a speech about the girl waiting blah blah). The fact that this show really, seriously makes it something you don't want I think testifies to how seriously it takes it and how well it portrays it. Especially because it's not just presented as a sexual issue where a girl magically becomes fine when she hits 18. It's much more complicated. Her age is a problem because of how vulnerable it makes her, and every time Philip snarks about it it's both funny and a blunt case for why it's terrible. Like this week I laughed out loud when Gabriel asked him how Kimmie was and he replied that she was currently worried about an upcoming math test.

 

I think you can see with Kimmie how she's being self-destructive (as others have said, she's actually ironically lucked out in hooking up with "Jim" instead of a real Jim in some ways) and foolish, but at least for me, not in a way that makes me dislike her. She's making mistakes that she doesn't deserve to be punished for.

 

But it also allows that it's not all that different from stuff they do anyway. Lisa is also vulnerable, as is Martha. Philip even says that if the case drags on and she gets older maybe he would sleep with her. It shows how there's not really a bright line when it becomes okay to manipulate people and lie to them, but Philip (and at least many in the audience) are very aware that doing it to Kimmie makes it particularly reprehensible. Somehow it feels like Philip really is in a battle for his soul. Many have said that they might not be able to continue with the show if he crossed that line, but I think that's reflected in the character. Like he can't articulate it beyond "she's too young" but it feels like the character feels like it's bigger that that. Like this girl is somehow central to something important in him that he must protect.

 

I think the show has rating problems because they have made errors in the show's writing (I agree with your last sentence wholeheartedly) and perhaps promotion, but based on the popularity of other shows with disturbing material, it's tough for me to conclude that disturbing material is in and of itself an issue.

 

 

I agree. The story and the conflict is always going to affect the way that the violence comes across. The Americans isn't just The Sopranos but with spies instead of gangsters. The way the characters looked at their world on that show, the values they used to figure out what to do, the rules of their world--just apples and oranges with The Americans. Plenty of other shows have had errors with the show's writing but it didn't drive people away because they liked the package as a whole. Even shows people love will often have sections or storylines that everyone agreed didn't work or were annoying. This show got low ratings pretty quickly. The most common complaint I see on the internet (anecdotal, I know) is that nothing happens and it's boring.

Edited March 6, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Bannon]

It's funny that it's not unusual for guys to make jokes about how it's the ultimate hot fantasy to have some teenage girl throwing herself at him. It's also easily played for laughs on sitcoms, especially raunchy ones (the nicer one would have a sweet ending where the guy gave a speech about the girl waiting blah blah). The fact that this show really, seriously makes it something you don't want I think testifies to how seriously it takes it and how well it portrays it. Especially because it's not just presented as a sexual issue where a girl magically becomes fine when she hits 18. It's much more complicated. Her age is a problem because of how vulnerable it makes her, and every time Philip snarks about it it's both funny and a blunt case for why it's terrible. Like this week I laughed out loud when Gabriel asked him how Kimmie was and he replied that she was currently worried about an upcoming math test.

 

I think you can see with Kimmie how she's being self-destructive (as others have said, she's actually ironically lucked out in hooking up with "Jim" instead of a real Jim in some ways) and foolish, but at least for me, not in a way that makes me dislike her. She's making mistakes that she doesn't deserve to be punished for.

 

But it also allows that it's not all that different from stuff they do anyway. Lisa is also vulnerable, as is Martha. Philip even says that if the case drags on and she gets older maybe he would sleep with her. It shows how there's not really a bright line when it becomes okay to manipulate people and lie to them, but Philip (and at least many in the audience) are very aware that doing it to Kimmie makes it particularly reprehensible. Somehow it feels like Philip really is in a battle for his soul. Many have said that they might not be able to continue with the show if he crossed that line, but I think that's reflected in the character. Like he can't articulate it beyond "she's too young" but it feels like the character feels like it's bigger that that. Like this girl is somehow central to something important in him that he must protect.

 

 

I agree. The story and the conflict is always going to affect the way that the violence comes across. The Americans isn't just The Sopranos but with spies instead of gangsters. The way the characters looked at their world on that show, the values they used to figure out what to do, the rules of their world--just apples and oranges with The Americans. Plenty of other shows have had errors with the show's writing but it didn't drive people away because they liked the package as a whole. Even shows people love will often have sections or storylines that everyone agreed didn't work or were annoying. This show got low ratings pretty quickly. The most common complaint I see on the internet (anecdotal, I know) is that nothing happens and it's boring.

I think the comment "It's boring" means, for the most part,  "the humans portrayed on the screen aren't interesting" and I think it is pretty obvious where that most likely applies. A writer shoud lawys ask himself/herself, "is this somebody I think I would be interested in having a conversation with, or have around me for some purpose assuming they aren't going to attack me?". If the answer is "no", then that character needs better writing. Seriously, does it not sound dreadfully dull

 to be around Stan Beeman for a day? I'd be feigning the flu by noon!

Edited March 6, 2015 by Bannon

[sistermagpie]

I think the comment "It's boring" means, for the most part,  "the humans portrayed on the screen aren't interesting" and I think it is pretty obvious where that most likely applies

 

 

They really seem to be saying something much more literal: that nothing happens. For instance, plenty of people have said that nothing has happened this season at all. Because for many people Paige saying she wants to be baptized is not anything important happening, nor is Philip spending time with Kimmie and avoiding sleeping with her, or Paige revealing to Elizabeth that she and Henry know she smokes. I think many of those people find Elizabeth herself interesting when she's doing something, but if she's just talking to her daughter it's described as filler. So they just find the show frustrating. 

 

When they mean they find a character boring they say that character is boring and they don't like their scenes. 

[beeble]

Frank Langella is a master. You are all right: sinister and sympathetic. That's why he was both Dracula and Nixon and even Sherlock. Take a look at this from when he was a tad bit sexier:

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/JaneGael/040610vampire39_zpsecba0c19.jpg

[Archery]

Weed makes Pink Floyd make sense. Truth.

[maczero]

Who knew a horny teenage girl could be so creepy?  

 

Honestly, I don't get Phillip.  I understand Elizabeth's pov.  She's a zealot and is willing to do whatever it takes to complete the mission.  Phillip, otoh, hates the things he has to do.  In fact, he was ready to flip not too long ago.  He's got to have a breaking point.  I wonder if turning Paige into a spy will be that point.

Maybe I've watched/read too much spy stuff, but when the FBI agent gave Stan the paper with the names of the FBI agents killed, I was sure he was passing Stan a note warning him about Martha, especially since the immediately proceeding scene (I think) was the FBI guy telling Martha that the mailbot had no more classified files.

No, Martha has always complained that classified documents were left in the mailbot.  She told this to the new agent in a previous episode.  New agent I think was trying to impress her by showing that he had taken care of her request.

 

I don't know how useful that bug that was planted in Kimmy's father's briefcase is going to be, it seems that the briefcase is always left in his office rather than being taken with the father to work! 

To be fair, the briefcase was there at night.

[RedheadZombie]

A thought just occurred to me.  Was Gabriel, very, very subtly also threatening Philip's son? 

 

I believe so, and posted as much up thread.

 

I think they might be wise at this point to kill Stan off, given the problematic nature of redeeming, in terms of drama, a character they have pretty throrougly botched. Do we really get anything useful in the scenes with Stan and P & E togehter? Time for an FBI reboot, it seems to me. 

 

I hope they don't kill off Stan.  I like the actor, and I like his friendship with Philip.  There's going to be a payoff between those two, sooner or later.

 

I used to wonder if Phillip and Irina's son was Hans...unbeknownst to him. But that would be too soapy. And anyway Irina looked far too young to have a grown son.

 

I've actually been wondering why Hans wasn't assigned to Kimmie.  I assumed it was because he was still learning.  Now that it seems Kimmie will be a long con, maybe Hans will be assigned to her.  I can't figure out any other reason they have a new young spy on the scene.  It's not so Elizabeth can cheat again, so maybe I'm on the right track.

Who knew a horny teenage girl could be so creepy?  

 

I had a hard time empathizing with Kimmie at first.  They've done a good job of making her sympathetic since then.   I think the creepy aspect is how sexually aggressive she is.  That just doesn't jive with a typical fifteen year old girl.  She's not fumbling and unsure of herself.   She's seductive and she's after older men.   I'm creeped out because I think she acts like a girl who's experienced chronic sexual abuse, if not incest.  It seems like she gets validation through sex.

Edited March 6, 2015 by RedheadZombie

[sistermagpie]

Honestly, I don't get Phillip.  I understand Elizabeth's pov.  She's a zealot and is willing to do whatever it takes to complete the mission.  Phillip, otoh, hates the things he has to do.  In fact, he was ready to flip not too long ago.

 

 

I think even in the pilot Philip was more dreaming of retiring than flipping. He doesn't want to work against the USSR. The new life he described seemed to assume that the Americans would just pay him to live peacefully under US protection--which is a fantasy.

 

But even then when Elizabeth asked him if he didn't care about the Motherland he said "I care about all of it." Elizabeth's patriotism is so loud and sometimes judgmental I think Philip's quieter version can get overlooked, but he's seemed very genuinely concerned about protecting Russia and Russians many times. Even the producers have said that he's actually fine doing his job--he doesn't like it when something particularly ugly comes up, but it's not torture for him being a spy otherwise. 

 

 

In the Kimmie situation, for instance, this wasn't an assignment handed to them. P&E overheard Kimmie talking to the other agent and saw her as a tempting target to get information that they both consider very important. I think that's a very real temptation for Philip--it's important intel that he understands and can see how it can protect his country. He just wants to get it without crossing a line that seems too far to him. Protecting Russia and being a good Russian spy is a motivation for him, he just has other motivations besides that. 

 

Even when Philip and Elizabeth say what their priorities are, they're not always totally borne out by what they do in the clinch.

 

I've actually been wondering why Hans wasn't assigned to Kimmie.  I assumed it was because he was still learning.

 

 

Also, while Hans would seem like the more obvious older boyfriend for a girl just wanting a mature boyfriend, Kimmie might really be going for the daddy here. Remember the guy they heard her hitting on wasn't a college student/grad student like Hans, he was the father of the kids for whom she was babysitting. Middle-aged dude, not like Hans.

[Ellaria]

Well, then you have to explain the extreme popularity of shows like "The Sopranos" where nearly every depravity known to man or woman is engaged in by the main characters, and the shows gets more viewers every year, until it is done. Why didn't that disturbing stuff dirve viewers away, more than it attracted them?  

 

I think the show has rating problems because they have made errors in the show's writing (I agree with your last sentence wholeheartedly) and perhaps promotion, but based on the popularity of other shows witth disturbing material, it's tough for me to conclude that disturbing material is in and of itself an issue.

 

I don't have to explain (and I can't) why viewers may find this material disturbing vs. material on The Sopranos or some other show. People have different tastes and different tolerances - I think that's the simple explanation for it. I think its a bit presumptuous to say that the "disturbing" material in the show may not be problematic for some viewers.

[soapfaninnc]

 

 

 

 

I had a hard time empathizing with Kimmie at first.  They've done a good job of making her sympathetic since then.   I think the creepy aspect is how sexually aggressive she is.  That just doesn't jive with a typical fifteen year old girl.  She's not fumbling and unsure of herself.   She's seductive and she's after older men.   I'm creeped out because I think she acts like a girl who's experienced chronic sexual abuse, if not incest.  It seems like she gets validation through sex.

 

It hit me when Phillip asked her to pray with him and she lit up like a Christmas tree - Kimmie is begging to be needed. She uses sex because that's the normal route to her for some reason - but as long as someone needs her she feels validated.  Her family doesn't seem to give a rats ass about her. How ironic the only person remotely concerned for her welfare is some spy trying to use her to get info on her CIA dad. 

 

I don't see The Sopranos in relation to The Americans. For one thing it was on HBO and had a built in audience. I never got into it, though my late mother did. 

 

If I turn off the show it will be because of Elizabeth. She needs a heaping dose of reality - stat. I'm sick of seeing her as the one always proven right - always kowtowed to by The Center. I didn't mind her showing Paige the harder side of life, but that drivel coming out of her mouth about Saint Gregory makes me want to gag. Really? 

[gwhh]

Did anyone think the KGB could be making up the story of Phillip pre-KGB love having his baby and him serving in the Soviet Military in Afghanistan? I mean that would really tug at his heart strings and get him back on track. They know since season 1 he lost faith in the job and it would have given them plenty of time to get a backstory together on that!

I just love how mom & daughter take a ride and than walk and talk through the bad section of DC. She like don't worry about it girl, mom got it handled. I bet she just wanted one of the corner guys to give her some flak so she could off them to get rid of all that pent up going to church angry!

Edited March 11, 2015 by gwhh

[rubyred]

Personally I wish Phillip and Elizabeth had never fallen in love. I don't need to see her tension about the Kimmie assignment; it's perfectly clear to me that Phillip is ambivalent at the very least about using someone so young. Adding Elizabeth's incipient judgement to the scenario feels like they're stacking the deck to me. Besides she's not feeling compunction about Kimmie being young; she just doesn't want Phillip to fuck anyone else. I think she's compartmentalized Martha because his physical relationship with her happened before it "happened" for her and Phillip. Martha is clearly a mark that Phillip feels barely veiled indifference for. Kimmie has been humanized by Phillip's concern for her.

 

It's interesting that people think nothing happens on this show. I always find it teeming with activity - but it's of the character-building variety, not derring-do. If The Americans were all James Bondian activity their cover would have been blown years ago. They are working a longer, much more subtle game. I loves me a character study.

[scrb]

Did 15 year old girls in the 80s only want to be around creepy older guys if they plowed them regularly?

That is, girls barely past the teenybopper phase pressure older men to have sex rather than the other way around?

[Former Nun]

A lot happens for me on this show.  It's another of those good programs where the hour goes very quickly.  

[Bannon]

It hit me when Phillip asked her to pray with him and she lit up like a Christmas tree - Kimmie is begging to be needed. She uses sex because that's the normal route to her for some reason - but as long as someone needs her she feels validated.  Her family doesn't seem to give a rats ass about her. How ironic the only person remotely concerned for her welfare is some spy trying to use her to get info on her CIA dad. 

 

I don't see The Sopranos in relation to The Americans. For one thing it was on HBO and had a built in audience. I never got into it, though my late mother did. 

 

If I turn off the show it will be because of Elizabeth. She needs a heaping dose of reality - stat. I'm sick of seeing her as the one always proven right - always kowtowed to by The Center. I didn't mind her showing Paige the harder side of life, but that drivel coming out of her mouth about Saint Gregory makes me want to gag. Really? 

Oh, no doubt, a charcter as sure of herself as E needs, dramatically speaking, a hard fall. Timing is everything, as always.