S05.E09: A Moorland Holiday (Christmas Special)

[millennium]

Can we get a Miss Fisher/Downton Abbey crossover episode?   Phryne would figure out who killed Greene in one afternoon -- and look great doing it.

[ZoloftBlob]

Father Brown would have sussed it out simply by walking by the estate.

[SusanSunflower]

Thomas sat down to chat with the already half-drunk butler (who immediately, implausibly dropped his guard and hostility on proving Thomas did not send the note to the cook that had been the crisis that got him drinking....). I'm pretty sure that we did not see the actual bean-spilling wrt Lord Sinderby's mistress (Diana Clark) and bastard child, but as I recall nasty butler implied the family was not upright.  Thomas' ears perked up. Stowell (butler) later said to Thomas he had drunk too much and said things he shouldn't have (so he did KNOW who else knew about Sinderby's indiscretion). How Thomas could summon the Mistress and child and have them arrive so quickly is just "magic of movies" ... but I'm sure Stowell knows it was him. 

Edited March 4, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[mojito]

 

But I just don't see them as having any romantic vibe at all.  Good friends who know each other inside and out but not lovers.

I agree that Carson wants to help Mrs. Hughes out. They're very close and comfortable together and know each other very well. They want to be together in retirement. These are terrific reasons to marry. They have more going for them than most people do.

[txhorns79]

I agree that Carson wants to help Mrs. Hughes out. They're very close and comfortable together and know each other very well. They want to be together in retirement. These are terrific reasons to marry. They have more going for them than most people do.

 

I don't know if I agree.  I think they have a nice relationship, but it's also a very structured relationship.  I don't know how it would be for them once they are outside the very protected setting of Downton.         

[SusanSunflower]

It may be more of a business partnership to run the B&B ... in which case marriage is probably necessary for cohabitation and other things like inheritance of shared-deed (which may have been signified by "I'm not marrying anyone else" and I'm not sure Carson has ever mentioned any family, i.e., no other heirs -- oh, and didn't he put her on the deed without her knowledge or consent, much less marriage?). I was surprised a bit because people who are congenitally "not right in the head," needing ongoing care, tend to not live to "old age"  -- even today -- because they tend to have impediments in communication so things like pneumonia or even appendicitis are often recognized a bit later -- see also compliance with treatment. "These days" such people are more likely to live to "old age" (and have heart disease and diabetes, etc. that need managing), but that is a relatively "modern" phenomenon/trend. 

[helenamonster]

I don't think it's the end of it -- unfortunately.  Here's an interview with executive producer Gareth Neame & he says it will be carried over into next season. 

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/02/downton-abbey-season-5-finale_n_6786594.html

 

Gareth Neame is full of shit. I know he's got to talk up the show, but pretending that this story is even about the rape anymore (if it ever was) is ridiculous. They've handled it miserably. Please wrap this shit up in the first episode in S6 and move the hell on.

[Calamity Jane]

i saw this article in the New York Times:

 

 

 

 

It struck me that if these resolutions are Fellowes' idea of plot twists, is it any wonder that so many are disenchanted with this season?

 

A plot twist -- a real plot twist -- is something you're not supposed to see coming.  

 

Matthew.   Matthew was a plot twist.   A really shitty plot twist, but one nonetheless.

 

Did anyone truly expect the Dowager to run off with the Prince, and were you taken by surprise when she didn't?   Did anyone care when Isobel turned down Lord Merton?  (If you ask me, Lord Merton dodged a bullet).    And okay, the scene with Carson and Mrs. Hughes was touching, but it does it really measure up as a plot twist?   We've seen it coming for two seasons now.

 

The only genuine plot twist I saw this season was the sacrifice of Isis.   Like Matthew's death it felt cheap and sudden. 

 

(Does anyone know if the dog expressed a desire to explore film opportunities in America?)

And her (the dog's) name shall never again be spoken on the show!  Ever!!

Edited March 4, 2015 by Calamity Jane

[meep.meep]

When she was upset on Atticus's behalf, Atticus told her she could say something to Henry.  That's when Tom made the crack about her being the epitome of unselfishness and she gave him the eye roll.  At least she owns it.

 

It still came off as incredibly snobbish and not her place.

 

What a wonderful way to spend a day.  Tromp around in the wet and cold in Scotland, and then have to stand behind the people getting to shoot the guns.  The women don't even get to load.

 

If anyone should move to America, it's Bates and Anna.  Flee for the hinterlands before you can be charged with anything else!  Emigrate!

[SusanSunflower]

JF's idea of a "cute meet" -- why would she bother to be rude to him if it wasn't the "start of something." --  Probably Mary as Darcy ... 

[Calamity Jane]

Can we get a Miss Fisher/Downton Abbey crossover episode?   Phryne would figure out who killed Greene in one afternoon -- and look great doing it.

I LOVE Miss Fisher!  I can only find a few (three?)  seasons - were there more?  

[proserpina65]

Tromp around in the wet and cold in Scotland

 

Northumberland, not Scotland.  Although with similar weather.  Not sure how cold/wet it was.

[Calamity Jane]

i saw this article in the New York Times:

 

 

 

 

It struck me that if these resolutions are Fellowes' idea of plot twists, is it any wonder that so many are disenchanted with this season?

 

A plot twist -- a real plot twist -- is something you're not supposed to see coming.  

 

Matthew.   Matthew was a plot twist.   A really shitty plot twist, but one nonetheless.

 

Did anyone truly expect the Dowager to run off with the Prince, and were you taken by surprise when she didn't?   Did anyone care when Isobel turned down Lord Merton?  (If you ask me, Lord Merton dodged a bullet).    And okay, the scene with Carson and Mrs. Hughes was touching, but it does it really measure up as a plot twist?   We've seen it coming for two seasons now.

 

The only genuine plot twist I saw this season was the sacrifice of Isis.   Like Matthew's death it felt cheap and sudden. 

 

(Does anyone know if the dog expressed a desire to explore film opportunities in America?)

I note that throughout the Times refers to the Christmas Special as the season finale.  Go figure. 

[proserpina65]

I note that throughout the Times refers to the Christmas Special as the season finale.  Go figure. 

Well, it was the New York Times, and for the US, it was the season finale.  Technically not correct, I guess, but that's how it functions for the US audience.

[Clanstarling]

From as far back as season 1, I've always thought Mrs. Hughes and Carson have had an intimate connection. Sure, it wasn't the smoldering sexual tension one normally sees with younger couples - but the concern they've both have had for each other over the years seem to me to be beyond the normal bounds of friendship and camaraderie. The look on Mrs. Hughes' face when she accepted kind of made that point for me, as much as I could see beyond my suddenly blurry eyes. ;)

 

As I am no spring chicken myself (I'd make a terrible broth), I have no problems believing they've been harboring a physical attraction as well as an emotional one.

[Constantinople]

As for Bertie Pelham, I think the show is making the point that that's the kind of guy Edith will have settle for.

Idk, guess it's just me, but I think he's OK.  Better than what Mary's got goin' on.  OK, I did like Matthew, but he's 6 feet under now.  Her choices were a gay sidekick, a dull hunk & now a smug slickster.

But Talbot shoots birds and races fast cars.

So valuable contributor to society.

[SusanSunflower]

What we saw of Talbott felt a bit like a cheat ... I saw Goode recently on a re-watch of Death comes to Pemberly  where he was really strikingly handsome -- so I know what he CAN be .. but Talbott really doesn't have much to recommend him except that he's not swooning over Mary already and he had demonstrated -- to her satisfaction -- that he can keep up with her..  what-the-ev'.  I'm guessing it's too much to ask for him to be interesting, as in intelligent or well-educated ... 

[millennium]

I agree that Carson wants to help Mrs. Hughes out. They're very close and comfortable together and know each other very well. They want to be together in retirement. These are terrific reasons to marry. They have more going for them than most people do.

 

And here I was thinking it was all about the sex.

[millennium]

Mary seemed to sort of regret enlisting Thomas, saying he might have gone too far in trying to put Sinderby in his place. Stowell immediately suspected that Thomas had written the note to the cook. It isn't very much of a leap to think he could have deduced that Thomas was behind Diana and her child showing-up and tried to make him account for it. Sometimes, it ain't about the ends justifying the means. It's about the means themselves.

 

Some people love Thomas. To me, he is a fascinating character and an essential one to the show. It would just be nice and probably somewhat equitable if Thomas was in a tight spot without another get-out-of-jail-free card.

 

I have a visceral dislike of Thomas.   It's his appearance, mostly.   He always looks too pale, like he's receiving nightly visits from a vampire, except for his cheeks which seem unusually flush.    His collars and bowtie look painful on him.   I imagine he smells like bad hair tonic and cigarettes.   I hate the affected way he smokes.   He just makes me go "ick" on so many levels.   He would have made a good evil servant in some M.R. James ghost story.

[moonb]

Mary and Thomas are starting to resemble each other in terms of their pale vampire coloring. I could be influenced by the parody in which Mary appears out of nowhere like the undead though.

Of course, that means 1920s styling really suits her. Harder to notice any transitions for the men, of course.

[Cranston]

helenamonster....thanks for the info on what happens to the DA's beautiful clothes.  It's been interesting to see the costume folks gradually update clothes, hair, makeup as the years go by.  Costuming, set design, etc. has always fascinated me and it's done so well on DA.

[PRgal]

Mary and Thomas are starting to resemble each other in terms of their pale vampire coloring. I could be influenced by the parody in which Mary appears out of nowhere like the undead though.

Of course, that means 1920s styling really suits her. Harder to notice any transitions for the men, of course.

 

LOL at Mary looking like the undead.  Were people still keeping that pale in 1924?  When did tanning come into fashion? 

[Rhetorica]

LOL at Mary looking like the undead. Were people still keeping that pale in 1924? When did tanning come into fashion?

Wasn't it the 60s? Course the 60s take credit for everything;)

[Sienna]

I probably *should* get the warm & fuzzies about Carson and Mrs. Hughes, but I just don't, it feels too forced. "Hey, let's take two people of approximately the same age range and social standing, and throw them together!"

 

I mean, I still like them better as a couple than I do Mary and any of her prospective suitors, but that's not saying a whole lot.

[ZoloftBlob]

LOL at Mary looking like the undead. Were people still keeping that pale in 1924? When did tanning come into fashion?

 

Sorry folks - Mary is *English*. Trust me, I have the curse myself, of being the palest non albino in the room. Yay celtic pride!

[Portia]

Here we go again, equating paleness with unattractiveness. I think Michelle Dockery's porcelain complexion is utterly beautiful.

[statsgirl]

When Isobel accepted Lord Merton's proposal, didn't she say something about wanting one last adventure?  I guess spending time with the Merton sons and their ineffectual father was an adventure she decided she didn't want to take.

 

Good for Mosley and Baxter. This show could use some more kindness.

 

I loved the Princess. Thoroughly crabby, no wonder the Prince wanted to ditch her.

 

I think Mrs. Hughes could do much better than Carson but women of a certain age can't be choosey.

 

I agree Mary was surprised that Edith reached out her hand, but I don't think she should have been. The two bicker, but they also have been seen to put their differences aside for the greater good. Mary also was kind to Edith just before Edith was supposed to get married. I think some of their bickering is meant to be almost playful, like when Mary said that they should all go out to lunch, "even you, Edith," and then in this episode when Edith made some barb and Mary retorted that she just doesn't want to be left behind with Edith. I think their relationship has evolved and softened since season 1 when they were sabotaging each other, and I believe Edith could tell Mary about Marigold for example without too much fear that Mary would blab.

Mary was kind to Edith once, when she was supposed to get married. When it fell through and Edith needed even more kindness, Mary was back to her usual self.

 

Mary is so used to putting Edith down, she doesn't even notice it any more, it's as natural to her as breathing.  But it's still bullying and Edith still is hurt by it.  It makes the show much easier for me to watch now that Edith has Marigold and some  happiness so she is able to let Mary's barbs wash over her a bit.

 

Agreed. Mary being nasty to him was not cute or charming or flirtatious. When she heard that Atticus wasn't going to be able to shoot because their neighbor, Johnny (?), was bringing someone to the shooting party so Atticus was giving up his spot, she was put out. But that is what a host does. It's considered the height of good manners to make your guests feel comfortable, no matter how they've put you out. An example in this episode when Rose's mother insisted on having her own room. It was a massive inconvenience but Cora and Mrs. Hughes simply said, no problem, we'll figure it out. That's what you do for guests. Mary should know this. But not only does she show her irritation to Atticus, somewhat understandable, she then proceeds to berate Henry Talbot, who is made to feel extremely uncomfortable.

 

And what was his crime? That he accepted an invitation to go shooting. He had no idea that he'd taken someone else's place. And because Mary chooses to snark at him about it when she did, it's way too late. When he says he'll give up his spot to Atticus, she coldly tells him that he can't because Atticus left his guns back at the castle. In what universe is that anything but beyond rude? And we're supposed to think that Henry is intrigued by her - he did ask about her marital status in the next moment.

HIs crime was, his presence irritated Mary because she expected Atticus to shoot.  Horrors.  I can't imagine why any man would find her attractive, they must be masochists.

 

I've heard the expression FHB (family hold back) when there wasn't enough to go around.  That's good manners, that when guests come, the family is eats less or joins in less so that the guests can enjoy themselves. I've long suspected it, no one taught Mary any manners.

[ZoloftBlob]

Here we go again, equating paleness with unattractiveness. I think Michelle Dockery's porcelain complexion is utterly beautiful

 

I'm NOT equating paleness with unattractiveness. If you knew how many times I was asked, a person with brown hair and green eyes, was asked if I was albino or sick because I am milk white, I would be rich. I seriously was sent to wash my face of make up I *wasn't* wearing by a drill sergeant in boot camp because ice white skin and red lips = "whore wearing lipstick" until a kind female drill sgt. interjected with "some white girls are like that". I adore the fact that Michelle Dockery shows the world how pretty she can be.

[meep.meep]

From as far back as season 1, I've always thought Mrs. Hughes and Carson have had an intimate connection. Sure, it wasn't the smoldering sexual tension one normally sees with younger couples - but the concern they've both have had for each other over the years seem to me to be beyond the normal bounds of friendship and camaraderie. The look on Mrs. Hughes' face when she accepted kind of made that point for me, as much as I could see beyond my suddenly blurry eye.

Since the last season ended with Hughes and Carson hand in hand wading at the seashore, was this really totally out of the blue? I think people just forget about them what with the heady distractions of various Bateses under arrest and Russki suitors for the Dowager Countess.

[millennium]

I've heard the expression FHB (family hold back) when there wasn't enough to go around.  That's good manners, that when guests come, the family is eats less or joins in less so that the guests can enjoy themselves. I've long suspected it, no one taught Mary any manners.

 

Ha!  I heard "FHB" from my parents many times as a child but whenever I mention it in conversation today people look at me as though I must have been raised on one the moons of Jupiter.   My mother and father had many brothers and sisters, who all had large families of their own.   The relatives all lived close by and were never shy about doing the pop-in on Saturday or Sunday afternoons, leaving my mother scrambling to accommodate a whole extra family for supper. 

[Kohola3]

Here we go again, equating paleness with unattractiveness.

 

I don't see it as equating with unattractiveness.  To me it equates with health.  Both Mary and Thomas look like they both need a transfusion.

 

Ha!  I heard "FHB" from my parents many times as a child but whenever I mention it in conversation today people look at me as though I must have been raised on one the moons of Jupiter.

 

Me, too!  I remember my dad bringing home visitors from other countries that he was working with and without warning my mom. My mom would whisper FHB when passing the food.  My nieces and nephews find that to be hilarious when I explain it.

[ShadowFacts]

Just  throwing in that Mary and Thomas are probably not much 'paler' than many of their castmates, they just have dark hair and eyes that emphasize it.  Cora has creamy white skin and dark hair, but her blue eyes pop thus giving her a different look (not a putdown of dark eyes).   Also, I don't know about England, but here in the Midwest tanning was not popular until maybe the 60s.  Untanned skin was actually prized, people would cover up when working outside so as not to tan.  That was long before skin cancer dangers were known, it was an aesthetic thing. 

[moonb]

Yes. I also think it's partially a function of lighting, makeup and styling. Michelle Dockery and Laura Carmichael are both really lovely women imo. Edith, on the other hand, can look wan and 'mousy' if she's dressed and made up a certain way, or gorgeous if she's in one of her turqoise or orange outfits from her London phase. Same thing with Mary - the 20s styles suit her well, but sometimes outfitting her in a pale dress is going to emphasize her 'cold, unfeeling' nature rather than making her look vibrant and dramatic.

Edited March 5, 2015 by moonb

[ZoloftBlob]

I don't see it as equating with unattractiveness.  To me it equates with health.  Both Mary and Thomas look like they both need a transfusion.

 

And speaking from the perspective of the palest person in the room, they could both have transfusions and still look milk white. There is nothing *unhealthy* about their skin tone except that they probably have to be careful in sun.

[wlk68]

Just  throwing in that Mary and Thomas are probably not much 'paler' than many of their castmates, they just have dark hair and eyes that emphasize it.  Cora has creamy white skin and dark hair, but her blue eyes pop thus giving her a different look (not a putdown of dark eyes).   Also, I don't know about England, but here in the Midwest tanning was not popular until maybe the 60s.  Untanned skin was actually prized, people would cover up when working outside so as not to tan.  That was long before skin cancer dangers were known, it was an aesthetic thing. 

Being pale meant you were either rich or worked indoors. A tan indicated you were a laborer and most likely looked down upon as uneducated.

 

As for me, I love Michelle Dockery's porcelain skin and dark hair and eyes. I find it very striking.

[SusanSunflower]

Yes, as I recall, sun exposure was the basis of some of Violet's put-downs of Shirley Maclaine's character's complexion. 

Hats, face powder, parasols -- all protected the face -- gloves protected the hands, and all encumbrances that regular folks could not afford, since most were purchased items and expressions of vanity for those who eschewed vanity.  Part of the American stereotype was "ruddy" complexion and a bounding gait, as I recall, oh, and loud, indiscreet and grating voice -- and laugh!

Edited March 5, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Kohola3]

USA, USA!!

[helenamonster]

Also, when Clifford first showed up, he was tan from having spent some time in Alexandria (I think?). Robert made some kind of comment on it that made it seem he wouldn't want to spend time in a place where he'd get a lot of sun exposure.

[SusanSunflower]

It's funny -- I come from an "old New England family" and admired the Alcotts and the whole Trancendentalist traditions, etc, so I do not know how wide spread generally pride in old-fashioned "American" values of lack of pretension, plainness (in the puritan sense) and forthrightness (even in women) really is/was, but I am reminded of the pretensions of the "Age of Innocence" -- storing new Paris designer clothes for a season to avoid being too "new" -- re-wearing of the wedding dress the following season, etc. These certainly were pretensions of "humility" (or something) by the very wealthy elite of Wharton's New York. 

I still think "Little Women" is a great exemplar of "American values" ... no matter how old-fashioned and idealized. 

eta: Yes, I am a boomer and there was an enormous revival of interest in intentional-communities like Brook Farm and the Shakers in the 1960's along with back-to-the-land and voluntary simplicity. 

Edited March 5, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[DeepRunner]

Gareth Neame is full of shit. I know he's got to talk up the show, but pretending that this story is even about the rape anymore (if it ever was) is ridiculous. They've handled it miserably. Please wrap this shit up in the first episode in S6 and move the hell on.

 

Agreed, they really need to just throw it over the side and move on to the next thing. Which will likely be another crisis for the Bateses. Which would be shocking, shocking, I know.

[helenamonster]

The thing is, I think both sides--those who like Anna/Bates and those who do not--can at least agree that they want this storyline to be over. Now, I'm not big on fans dictating story direction, but in this case I think it would be best if Fellowes took a step back to see how it was all going over and just decided to wrap it up nice and quick and be done with it. I mean, it's not like he has some big master plan of where this story is going. It's been over a season and we still don't know who the murderer is. Furthermore, the suspicion over Anna and Bates is nowhere near gone. He's just meandering with it all and it's so dumb and pointless. And the terrifying thing is that I can't decide whether JoFro winning the Golden Globe will placate him to the point where he'll stop tossing her and Brendan Coyle the gloomiest of stories, or if it will just fuel his thinking that Anna and Bates need to be super depressed all the time. Also, he might still want to go for another shot at the Emmy with her.

[PRgal]

I thought tanning first came into fashion when Coco Chanel went home after vacation with a tan.  That would have been in the 20s some time. 

[ScoobieDoobs]

The Crawleys' "love" for Bates puzzles me.  He seems like a creepy a-hole to me.  He's never anything other than charmless & unpleasant.  He isn't mean, but sheesh, he always give me the willies.  I wouldn't wanna have that death stare around me.  No thanks.

Edited March 6, 2015 by ScoobieDoobs

[statsgirl]

Being pale meant you were either rich or worked indoors. A tan indicated you were a laborer and most likely looked down upon as uneducated.

Until the Industrial Revolution, that was true.  Then when laborers went to the cities and indoors to work in the mills, having a tan became the symbol of wealth because you could spend time south or in Egypt.

 

It's all about showing you're wealthy and don't need to work.

[proserpina65]

Since the last season ended with Hughes and Carson hand in hand wading at the seashore, was this really totally out of the blue? I think people just forget about them what with the heady distractions of various Bateses under arrest and Russki suitors for the Dowager Countess.

See, I didn't take that as anything potentially romantic, just one friend helping another out.  I'm not upset at the development, but I didn't see it coming.

[Badger]

I knew it was coming but I didn't see the scene of them walking into the water hand in hand as romantic at all.  I just thought it was him not wanting to go in and her taking his hand to encourage him.

 

The thing that's always made me think they'd eventually marry is that for all intents and purposes they're already mom and dad downstairs anyway.  And they're obviously very fond of each other in an old married couple kind of way.

[Andorra]

I wish they had stayed the "old married couple" without actually marry. I thought they had a very special and interesting relationship and now it turned into a soapy fanfiction scenario. I hate it.

[morakot]

What is wrong about having Carson and Mrs Hughes marry? Friendship and common interests are often great grounds for marriage -- or is it that marriage is only for the young and hot -- or solely for the procreation of children? 

 

Interesting, it was common for butlers and housekeepers to marry. They might be hired as a couple or retire to set up a boarding house or small hotel.

Edited March 6, 2015 by morakot

[Cranston]

Carson and Mrs. Hughes are lovely together.  They know each other so well, they fit like gloves and I picture their later years as happy, comfortable years.  Even if there isn't any passionate love all over the place...sometimes unions based on friendship and closeness work just as well.  Good for them, many seniors dread spending their last years alone. 

[Andorra]

Wrong thread.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Andorra