S05.E09: A Moorland Holiday (Christmas Special)

[romantic idiot]

re: Matthew Goode - we don't know Mary wasn't speaking with him. First thing we see is him thanking her for keeping his spirits up, and then saying that he didn't ind having a stranger at his back, especially not her. And it seemed he did assume that she was married, so it wasn't like he'd fallen in love or something, he was just being gallant. Then there's also a place where he asks Mary to "be a sport" and forgive him so that he wouldn't have her "scowling" at him through dinner. I don't think a lovelorn swain would use those words in conversation with his heartthrob, which is why, though he was intrigued, I don't think he was smitten. Mary herself though, seemed quite taken with him. 

[Andorra]

I agree. What I liked most about Matthew Goode was, that he wasn't instantly falling over his feet in burning love for Mary. He was interested, but he was not at all over eager while Mary seemed to be the one seriously attracted. She was impressed by his shooting, she was impressed by the quickness of his mind to figure out the Diana Clark situation, she was the one suggesting a next meeting and she seemed almost turned on when he jumped in the car and drove off without looking back.

[Superpole2000]

This was a boring episode. I just didn't care about anything that was happening. I am, however, really looking forward to another season of men pursuing Mary, servants being mean for no logical reason, characters talking about more interesting but ultimately dead characters, and the Bates family being investigated for murder. Get some new storylines! This show is so incredibly tired. It needs a long nap and an infusion of writing talent.

 

My least favourite story of the season (besides the repetitive Bates saga) was Violet's ongoing Prince/Princess drama. It felt like most of that story was told to us via dialogue about the past, which was an incredibly boring choice. Imagine if the flashback scenes of The English Patient or The Godfather Part 2 were told to us instead of shown to us. Those movies would have been disasters!

[Camera One]

I thought the Christmas special was fine.  It didn't stand out, but it was a mildly engaging diversion.  This is the type of show where I just enjoy watching the characters in their setting doing mundane everyday things, so it didn't bother me that nothing happened.  I don't really expect much character development or see much more potential in plot at this point, so I'm content to just peer in on their world.

 

The Denker soup subplot was bemusing.  I'm really not sure what the point was.  In that previous episode, Denker got her comeuppance, so I was thinking we would get to see that again, but apparently, it's Spratt's turn?  It weirdly took up a lot of screentime, but I didn't really mind it.

 

It's funny that they had two seasons of Gillingham vs. Blake, with a tease of Branson, and now, another random guy is introduced for Mary.  I thought he was alright, though a little weird that Mary would be so argumentative for no reason.  He seemed more like Blake and at this stage, I can't really tell the difference in personality.  At least I didn't hate him.  I liked the agent that Edith was paired with a little more, so there could be potential there.

 

I didn't like Tom much when Sybil was around, but he has grown on me a lot these last two seasons.  Even so, the major conflicts that his character would have been involved in have all played out, so I don't mind too much that he is leaving.  I'm glad he won't be killed off (though I really wonder how Fellowes might have killed him off in this episode if he had gone there... Hunting accident?  Getting run over by Matthew Goode's car?  Drinking Denker's poisoned soup meant for Spratt?).  Ditto for Rose.  I hated her when she first joined the show, but she has really grown on me.  Even so, I won't mind her absence either, and I look forward to a "visit" from Tom and Rose in the future for an episode or two.

 

The Carson/Mrs. Hughes marriage proposal was kind of sweet, but a little too soon and out-of-nowhere for me.  That would have been nice in the series finale.  I would have preferred to see some hi-jinx with them and their house instead.

 

I still really enjoy Violet and Isobel's scenes.  I like Merton but I'm also not too torn up that Isobel rejected him for now.  That would be a good series finale kind of thing.

 

Edith had some good scenes with Robert and Tom.  It's nice to see her happier.

 

The Bates murder stuff is getting repetitive but I didn't hate it per se, except seeing Anna put through the ringer again and again.  But the way this subplot played out in the special didn't even make sense.  Why would the police even accept a confession from Bates when he wasn't short?  Why would the witness be "suddenly having doubts"?  I liked Moseley and Baxter working together, but was everyone in the room wondering why they didn't do that for Bates and Anna considering they all cared so much?  This special would have had more oomph if they had allowed someone to discover proof that Anna is innocent and have this storyline be done with for good.  Enough is enough.

 

The castle was beautiful and I almost wish we spent more time there.  It seemed a bit abrupt to cut to time-jump to Christmas halfway through.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Camera One

[Andorra]

 

He seemed more like Blake and at this stage, I can't really tell the difference in personality.

 

The main difference for me was that he wasn't acting as if she was Helena of Troy. Blake mutated from enemy to devoted admirer, but Henry Talbot just didn't fall over his feet to please her. He was interested, but not overly so and in contrast to the other two suitors: Mary's tongue was almost hanging out.

[photo fox]

I haven't seen this yet, of course, but one thing strikes me from the comments here: it seems like so much of the episode was devoted to newbies or one-off characters! I'm not one who usually complains much about JF, but I wish he'd stop creating new characters and write for those we already know and love. And I think this is even more true in a Christmas special.

I will miss Tom greatly. I was never a big Tom/Sybil shipper, but he really grew on me after she died. Best of luck to AL. (Silver lining for this viewer: no chance of a Tom/Mary pairing.)

I love MG (if not his character) from The Good Wife, so I'm excited about his joining the show. If Mary must have a man, and if that story must be front and center, at least give her a man who doesn't suck! Good casting.

[Jillybilly]

I'm surprised Matthew Goode would be a regular character on Downton because I thought I've read that he'll still be on The Good Wife which films during some of the same time as Downton.  I didn't really form an impression of his character but he and Mary do look good together.

 

I'm still shocked that Tom would actually leave.  The actor always seemed to like the show and cast.  Certainly JF could have come up with some stories for him - how about a visit from his mother, more stuff with Sybbie - I could list a bunch of stuff.  Some here and on other boards seem to think Tom will only be gone for an episode or two and then be back.  I don't see that happening.  If he comes back from American so soon he'd be coming back a failure - it's not like he's going to Texas and could hit an oil well.  I could see him coming back for the final episode.  I'm really going to miss him and especially Sybbie.

 

Who JF needs to write out of the show is the Bates since he can't come up with new plot lines for them.  Since both have had murder plot lines what's next - a murder they committed together? 

 

I thought the Carson marriage proposal came out of left field.  I mean they were still calling each other Mrs. Hughes and Mr. Carson.

[Camera One]

If Tom didn't leave, I would have expected a Tom/Mary or a Tom/Edith pairing next season.  Which I don't particularly want to see.  It's the usual repetition to see the Christmas special built around people who might be leaving.  Even though this time, Tom really is leaving.  I guess it didn't make that much of an emotional impact on me since Tom has had the longest goodbye ever.  In an interview, the actor said he is receiving some interesting scripts and people are interested in him as an actor right now.  He seems perfectly willing to come back eventually, so maybe that's why he wasn't killed off.  Since from a writer's perspective, there is so much more drama to be had if Tom had been murdered or something in this episode.  It could have reduced the complaints that it was boring, but it would have created a whole new angle of discontent.  A great idea would be to have the murder weapon be found in Bates and Anna's house.  

Edited December 30, 2014 by Camera One

[Badger]

Anna still calls Bates "Mr. Bates" and they've been married for at least 5 years.  It's funny how formal they are downstairs but it was a different time, I suppose.  

 

I don't think the proposal was out of the blue at all.  Mr. Carson and Mrs. Hughes were clearly fond of each other and had a deep affection based in part on shared experiences.  I mean, I doubt if we're in for a storyline about the joys of senior sex next season.  

 

To me, the broth episode had to do with the kind of silly childish games Spratt and Denker were playing against each other and that Violet was choosing to ignore because she was so distracted by the whole shenanigans with Prince Kuragin.  But since that's over now, she's telling them to knock it off.

[romantic idiot]

The main difference for me was that he wasn't acting as if she was Helena of Troy. Blake mutated from enemy to devoted admirer, but Henry Talbot just didn't fall over his feet to please her. He was interested, but not overly so and in contrast to the other two suitors: Mary's tongue was almost hanging out.

Plus Blake was almost too antagonistic in the beginning. Talbot started off in a more 'take it or leave it' manner - he didn't care that much either way. 

 

I haven't seen this yet, of course, but one thing strikes me from the comments here: it seems like so much of the episode was devoted to newbies or one-off characters! I'm not one who usually complains much about JF, but I wish he'd stop creating new characters and write for those we already know and love. And I think this is even more true in a Christmas special.

I don't think the newbies are irrelevant in this case though. Both Edith and Mary are short of love interests, so they'd have to be introduced sooner or later. Plus they'll need an agent. 

 

I'm surprised Matthew Goode would be a regular character on Downton because I thought I've read that he'll still be on The Good Wife which films during some of the same time as Downton.  I didn't really form an impression of his character but he and Mary do look good together.

 

I'm still shocked that Tom would actually leave.  

 

TGW's TPTB have traditionally been quite accommodating of their cast members' other projects, and Finn currently isn't very prominent, and only connected to Alicia. re: Allan Leach, I thought it was JF's decision to have Tom go? If JF weren't willing, he'd have thrown another hissy fit for sure. 

[Andorra]

Allen said in an interview in this week's Toronto Star:

 

 

“I am a little surprised at where Tom is and a little saddened as well,” Leech warns viewers. “Some serious stuff happens. It is a true set piece drama.”

 

In another interview with Matthew Goode about "The Imitation Game" when they did the promo tour in October/November, Allen said to Matthew: "hey, I'm unemployed, do you have to rub it in?" It sounded like a joke, but maybe there was some truth in it?

 

He doesn't have any work lined up right now. Nothing is announced that would hinder him doing Downton. He has also always said that he loves to do the show, that it allows him to do other things as well and he has said various times that he would be happy to come back for series 6. In May, when  he was in Hamburg, he was asked if he would be in series 6 and he laughed and said: "I haven't read the last two scripts, so I could be dead man walking." It did sound like a joke and in retrospect it sounds as if he then didn't know that he was going to be written out.

 

Long say, short message: I think it was mainly JF's idea and not Allen asking for a release from his contract.

 

BUT in a recent interview (about TIG) the reporter asked him if series 6 was comissioned and Allen said: "We just got another season, my manager is happy." Why would his manager be happy if he wasn't coming back??

[abbyzenn]

I don't think we'll find out until after Downton airs in the US as to whether it was JF or AL's decision to leave.  I don't think either would do an interview about it now before the US viewers know he's leaving.

 

We should soon know if he's doing the West End play.  I thought he had said it was in February?

 

I don't think you can read anything into what AL has said so far.  There was recent interview where he said none of his mates but the one that dates Michelle had ever seen him in Downton and then in another one he said they tried to read his scripts and that a couple of them watch the show.

 

I thought there was going to be a seen of Tom at Sybil's grave.  I did think the scene of him, Edith and Mary in the nursery was touching and loved the line "we were the 3 that should have grown old with her."  JF is capable of good writing - just wish he'd do more of it.

 

Sometimes JF does just throw stuff in the air and other times it's foreshadowing.  I wonder which is the case with Robert's ulcer?  It wasn't necessary for any story line in this episode.  He could still have gotten drunk and Tom stepped in to stop him from speaking.

 

I agree he should have written out the Bates.  And Daisy.  Although now with the new footman Andy there could be a Daisy romance.

[Tetraneutron]

 

I don't think the newbies are irrelevant in this case though. Both Edith and Mary are short of love interests, so they'd have to be introduced sooner or later. Plus they'll need an agent.

Right - anyone think that job will go to Bertie Pelham?

 

If Mary does get married, won't she leave Downton for her husband's estate? JF is giving her only titled love interests, and this does seem to be a stumbling block storyline-wise. An essential part of the show is managing the estate so it's still there for George to inherit, and the essential conflict betweem old-fashioned and clueless Robert and the reformist realists, represented by Mary and Tom. And now just Mary. No one in the show can replace her as the voice of the changing world vis-a-vis landowners, because no one else in the cast has the stake in it she does. I think this is why Blake was given the background he has. If he's not getting his estate until a distant relative dies, he's free to be at Downton. As it is, there are reasons to drag out the process of Mary remarrying. Or give her a commoner, I suppose but I very much don't see JF doing that.

[ZoloftBlob]

As it is, there are reasons to drag out the process of Mary remarrying.

 

Except that her age is making her more and more unlikely as a bride.

 

But the essential flaw here is that Mary has no obstacles. There's no way for her to lose. She's got the estate, she's got the child she needs, she's got the money. If she wants to remarry, she can, and its her choice but since she's already gotten what she wants, its not terrible if she doesn't.

 

I mean, this season, and next from the look of it, seem to be coming down to "just effing pick a man, mary!" and honestly she doesn't seem to have any stake in it, so why should the audience?

 

On a complete aside, considering the writing being so repetative the last two seasons... am I the only one who wonders what season four and five would have looked like without cast leaving? Because for the life of me, I cant see what Mary would have had to do if she wasn't able to date...

[Camera One]

Because for the life of me, I cant see what Mary would have had to do if she wasn't able to date...

 

Replying in Mary thread.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Camera One

[Avaleigh]

I know the storyline has flaws but I still think that Maggie Smith worked well with what she had and she really sold the story for me overall. The nervousness and mortification that she was trying to conceal in the scene with the princess was really well done I thought. She almost seemed like a nervous young girl who was waiting to be chastised by some figure of authority. I don't feel that the story was handled in a realistic manner but I did appreciate getting more backstory on Violet. I also liked that she was finally willing to be honest with Isobel about it all. They've come such a long way as friends. I'd like to see Isobel revealing more of herself to Violet one day.

 

Regarding the eternal squabbling of Edith and Mary--

 

Again, I felt like I saw it coming from both sides this episode. For example, imagine for a moment if Mary had said to Edith, "Poor Edith. She hates to be left behind when everyone else is getting on with their lives." Edith even had a smile on her face when she saw that Mary was getting upset about the discussion of Tom leaving. It's after Edith says this that Mary snaps back at her and makes the mean comment about how it's about not wanting to be left behind with Edith that would really annoy her. Furthermore, Edith admits to needling Mary during the conversation with she has later with Tom where she admits that she'll miss him too, so it isn't like she doesn't know what she's doing. 

 

JF is giving her only titled love interests, and this does seem to be a stumbling block storyline-wise.

 

 

This wasn't a stumbling block with Gillingham. He has a title and land but the house is gone so if he and Mary had married they would have presumably gone on to live at Downton. Blake is in line for an estate but at the moment it seems like if that situation had worked out then they too would have ended up living at Downton for the foreseeable future. It might have been an issue with Evelyn Napier but he was never seriously in the running. Even if he had been they'd hardly be the first aristocrats even during this time period to manage more than one house and estate. 

 

I didn't have the feeling that  they were fighting  over a guy. The way she told it, it was like the princess was trying to save her from a scandal which would have ruined the life of the four of them.  I mean, she sent lady Violet in a carriage back to her husband. That's a bit classier  XD

 

 

Sorry, I should have been more clear. For one thing I didn't get the impression that Violet fought back at all so my way of phrasing what happened was kind of misleading and I agree with you that it isn't as trashy as a housewives/reality show. I agree too that it wasn't just "because of a guy" that the princess decided to get physical. At the same time, putting myself in Violet's situation for a moment, I'm imagining trying to describe to a friend that years ago I'd been involved in an incident where I'd been snatched by my weave hair out of a car I was traveling in because I'd just been caught trying to run away with the husband of a casual acquaintance--it just sounds so bad and right out of Bravo TV that I can totally see why Violet made sure not to let her family in on the details of the end of her affair with Kuragin.   

 

I find it interesting that Violet appears to have been the type of woman who would take advantage of the fast house party scene but her children don't seem to have the same inclinations as far as carrying on discreet relationships with people of their own class. This episode is also the first time I've had the impression that Violet had her own (discreet) romantic life even after her marriage. Makes me wonder if she ever caught the eye of "Bertie" at some point.

[Starchild]

Although now with the new footman Andy there could be a Daisy romance.

Or a Thomas romance. It's about time, after all.

[Limelight]

I really enjoyed the Christmas special.  I know that it's not the best written show anymore but the production values are so beautiful and sumptuous that even when there's a lull in the story, I just sit back and stare at the costumes or castles, it's just such a lovely, visual show.

I'm so glad that Edith was happy this episode, it's been poor, poor, Edith for so long it was nice to see her get attention from her parents and a possible new suitor.

 

As a fan of Tom, I'm glad to see he's going off to Boston.  I think it suits the trajectory of the character, he worked at becoming accepted as family for Sybil and Sybbie's sake but his heart was always in politics and if he goes to Boston during that time he can take part in the Kennedy ascension, that should suit him well. He could always come back for weddings (hopefully Edith's sometime) and Christmas specials.

 

I think I've seen Matthew Goode speak in three different accents now, an Irish brogue in a bad rom-com with Amy Adams, then a basic American accent on The Good Wife and now a proper, plummy accent on Downton.  He's really talented because he's different but believable in all three characters.

I'm a little confused with his character, was he a neighbor? Is he titled? Is he a race car driver.  I know he seems to be Lady Mary's newest but I couldn't quite get who he was exactly.

I wish they'd give Mary a redheaded beau.  It would be really helpful for my grandmother who watched the show with me this time and couldn't tell this man apart from the past two guys that have chased after Mary!

 

I can kind of see why Lady Edith doesn't want Mary to know about Marigold.  Not only is Mary harsh and unrelenting towards her but what if she reacted the same way Edith did when something scandalous happened in her life.  Edith wrote to the Turkish Embassy trying to get Mary in trouble, what if Mary decided to get even by divulging Marigold and Edith's relationship? 

I do love that the Crawley ladies have flowers for names, Violet, Marigold, Rose, it's charming.  I bet Hyacinth Bucket would love to know  her name and that of her sisters are so in vogue now with Downton Abbey.

 

I used to watch a show called "House of Eliott" when I was a kid, it was shown on A&E here in the US and it's one of my favorite shows of all time.  The costumes were exquisite but the production values of that show were so poor, it looked like it was filmed in someones basement.  I don't know if things have changed that much in production in general or just that this show isn't with the BBC, so there's more money available but Downton really is a feast for the eyes.

[t7686]

Just caught up on this, overall I really liked it, especially the second half. Carson's propsal was surprisingly sweet and I liked drunk Robert. If they really are leaving, I'll miss Rose and Tom. They both really grew on me. I was indifferent to her at first and hated Tom back when he and Sybil had that same conversation by the car for years back in season 2 but now he's my favorite character. My only problem with it is what can they possibly do in season 6? Everything's been pretty well tied up and all the interesting or young characters are either dead or gone. why the boring Bates are still around I don't know.

I can only guess that they'll do a time jump? Maybe to the crash in 1929 which brings both Rose & Tom back?

Last comment, is Isobel ever going to mention her son, see her grandson, or just generally interact with Mary? If I just stumbled upon this show now I'd think she was just Violet's sister.

Edited January 22, 2015 by t7686

[Andorra]

I'm very sure by now that Tom won't be gone for long.

 

Allen Leech had an interview last week in Canada:

 

Interviewer: I must say, I couldn't wait so I watched the Christmas Special and you made me cry so hard, Mr!! I don't want to spoil anything, but really? Come on, will you be back or not?

Allen: I can tell you this: I think it will be very hard for Tom to stay away too long from the Abbey.

Interviewer: Sybbie needs her Donk!

Allen: She does. I think if he'd really leave, it had to be for a spinoff with Barrow and Branson running two bars in New York right opposite each other.

 

He also has mentioned twice in interviews now, that his "management is delighted" about the renewal of Downton for S6. Why should his Management be delighted if he wasn't in it?

 

And then finally he was asked before the Golden Globe if he ever been to it before. He said no, he hadn't, but that "Michelle" and "Joanne" always had great stories and then he said: "I hope I will add to the pool when we'll go back filming."

 

Julian Fellows also made an interesting comment. He said about S6 that he "looks forward to see the offspring of Tom Branson, Mary and Edith to become more active, speaking roles" and also that he looks forward to see the Charleston come to Downton "if we move the show to 1926".

 

Why should he mention Sybbie if she wasn't in S6 AND he mentions the possibility to move into 1926. So my theory would be there will be a time jump. In the last year we always had a one year time jump in the CS. This year we hadn't so I think we might jump to 1926 in series 6. This would mean Tom would have been away for a year already and he could come for a visit. Or he could come home,  because his cousin could open a branch in England?

 

Is it a coincidence that Henry Talbot is probably a car factory owner and that Tom works in car sales in the US now? Could there be a possibility to bring both to Downton on a regular basis?

[Avaleigh]

Yeah, I didn't think there was much to any risk of Allen leaving so I wasn't worried. I thought that was the main reason for Sybbie twice asking "why?" about them leaving and Tom being unable to give her any sort reasonable answer. IMO it didn't have anything to do with him not feeling capable of explaining it in a way that she could understand. To me it was about there being no real reason for them to go and to show that Tom is starting to arrive to that conclusion. This doesn't mean that I'm suggesting he should necessarily live in the Abbey but that I don't see the big deal if he goes back to managing the estate. He can always live in the estate manager's house if he wants to marry again and have his own life. For the time being though as long as he's single, he's going to need extra help with Sybbie so why not have her be with her cousins and watched over by a nanny that she's grown to know and love? I can see why Tom would end up returning to all of that.

 

I'm also fully preparing myself for Tom to criticize America or Americans in some way since Fellowes likes to do that in subtle (or not so subtle) ways.

 

Re: the Charleston coming to Downton--I have a hard time seeing any of the upstairs characters save Rose dancing the Charleston. I can see some downstairs characters having fun with it although it would really have been more so with characters like Jimmy and Ivy. Daisy is really the only main young person downstairs these days. Anna is youngish too but her life is always so steeped in misery I can't see her having any sort of Charleston moment of fun even if we jump forward two years into the story.

 

Is it a coincidence that Henry Talbot is probably a car factory owner and that Tom works in car sales in the US now? Could there be a possibility to bring both to Downton on a regular basis?

 

 

I like this speculation. I'd like to see the two men get along and for Tom to have a male friend since he hasn't had one since Matthew died. (Again though, nobody in the Abbey is really allowed to have friends. Rose was a rare exception.)

 

I'm even amused at the speculation that Tom will come back to Downton after having made himself a pile of cash somehow and that this will suddenly make him attractive in Mary's eyes. (As if Mary hasn't already seen and come to platonically love his fine qualities herself.) I don't think this will happen at all since I can't see Tom being the type to go down any get rich quick paths like stock speculation or bootlegging but I still find it funny to speculate on this considering the uproar it would cause.

 

Edith would erupt into a volcano of jealousy; Robert would probably feel like he had to readjust to Tom all over again and would likely disapprove; Cora would probably feel the most pain over reminders of Sybil; Carson would just about lose his mind at the idea of the former chauffeur ending up with his favorite daughter of the house; Mrs Hughes even though she's got to know Mary better at this point would still probably feel sorry for Tom in some way. Rose is the only upstairs character that I see not having a problem with the idea of Tom/Mary. I'm not sure what Violet would do but I doubt she'd be happy. In some ways I think Isobel's reaction would be the most interesting because she really likes Tom and would probably like the idea of him being a father figure to George. Considering how pro-Sarah Bunting she was though I can't see her thinking that Tom could ever be happy with a woman like Mary. 

[Andorra]

 

Re: the Charleston coming to Downton--I have a hard time seeing any of the upstairs characters save Rose dancing the Charleston. I can see some downstairs characters having fun with it although it would really have been more so with characters like Jimmy and Ivy.

 

My candidate for the Charleston is Molesley. I BET he would be the victim of Fellow's pen and would have to make himself look ridiculous. Probably in an attempt to be modern again, like when he dyed his hair!

 

 

I'm even amused at the speculation that Tom will come back to Downton after having made himself a pile of cash somehow and that this will suddenly make him attractive in Mary's eyes.

 

You know what? That reminds me of the deleted scene from series 2, Episode 8:

 

(From the scriptbook):

 

14 INT. DRAWING ROOM. DOWNTON. DAY

Lavina is on the sofa talking to Mary and Edith#

 

MARY: What I can't bear is the thought of Sybil waking up in a Dublin slum, away from everything she knows.

 

EDITH: Perhaps Branson will discover oil or something, and make a fortune.

 

MARY: Would that wash him clean? I wonder.

 

 

 

 

So would it "wash him clean"? Interesting thought.

 

I don't really see a Mary/Tom pairing. Julian Fellows and the actors have been so vocal about it not being a possibility. I don't see how they could back out of that gracefully now.

Also I thought Henry Talbot screamed "endgame" to me, so could he be yet ANOTHER red herring? After Blake and Gillingham?

 

I love the relationship between Tom and Mary though and I wouldn't even be completely against a romantic pairing of those two. What they had in the last two series at least was the most honest and intimate relationship that existed on the show. Everything else was so undeveloped und superficial.

With Tom and Mary I had the feeling that they really understood, respected and loved each other. Just as brother and sister, but with genuine affection. Tom doesn't buy Mary's attitude and she knows it. And because of that she is different with him, more vulnerable and open. I liked that a lot.

[ElizaD]

I'm glad it looks like Tom might not be gone for good after all, but since they made his departure a big deal, maybe he'll return mid-season so that it'll really feel like he's been away from Downton.

 

I don't think Tom/Mary will become romantic, especially now that Henry Talbot seems like a viable option. Even if there was no Henry, I wouldn't want them to hook up. There are a ton of romances to root for on TV but it's so refreshing to see such a believable loving, supportive relationship between a man and a woman that's completely platonic.

 

Now that I think about it, it's a little odd that there's been practically no Tom/Cora scenes. Of course they'd have less conflict but Isobel approved of him too and the show got some nice bonding scenes out of that. This season has really shown why Mary, Edith and Robert would miss Tom, but it didn't do the same with Cora. They could have had a talk about Sybbie and Sybil's memory, for example.

[Tetraneutron]

Will there be Henry Talbot in Mary's future? My understanding is it depends on if The Good Wife will let him go and it looks like they won't. So at best he'll be recurring. I have nothing aginst him based on what we saw, but there's no spark. I suppose that could change if we actually learn anything about him besides the fact that he likes cars and can shoot. And if they can scare up a reason there might be conflict for him and Mary.

 

I don't see anything interesting between Tom and Cora. When two easygoing, nice, people who get along with everybody share a scene, not much will happen. The show is really going to suffer when the only young, upper-class people are Mary and Edith. Who aren't really young at this point. The love affairs are the fun part of any soap, and Edith doesn't have any while Mary's could not possibly be more dull. Not to mention, unlike Sybil, Tom, and Rose, Edith and Mary don't get involved in the community or engage in the issues of the day. Sure we hear about Edith writing a column but it never comes up on screen. In series 5, Rose was involved with helping Russian refugees, met a man, got married, dealt with her nasty mother and in-laws, and saved her father-in-law. And that was in her least interesting series. Mary had the world's most boring love affair and Edith moped.

[Andorra]

Will there be Henry Talbot in Mary's future? My understanding is it depends on if The Good Wife will let him go and it looks like they won't. So at best he'll be recurring. I have nothing aginst him based on what we saw, but there's no spark. I suppose that could change if we actually learn anything about him besides the fact that he likes cars and can shoot. And if they can scare up a reason there might be conflict for him and Mary.

 

 

You can be sure that the producers cleared that one up BEFORE they hired him for the CS. What sense would it make otherwise? Rumor has it that he will be there for 6 episodes out of 9.

[ZoloftBlob]

You can be sure that the producers cleared that one up BEFORE they hired him for the CS. What sense would it make otherwise? Rumor has it that he will be there for 6 episodes out of 9.

 

Yeah, not so sure of the producers competence on that point. After all, Stevens gave notice when season three began filming, thereby putting production on notice that actors will walk away from the show, and we still ended up having the whole Greggson storyline shut down because the actor was unavailable and refused to make himself available.

 

I'm not hoping for this storyline to fall apart but I do find it odd that after all the problems they've had getting actors to commit, and after all the whining over Stevens leaving, they're filling the role of Mary's suitor with an actor with availability issues.

[Andorra]

Yeah, not so sure of the producers competence on that point. After all, Stevens gave notice when season three began filming, thereby putting production on notice that actors will walk away from the show, and we still ended up having the whole Greggson storyline shut down because the actor was unavailable and refused to make himself available.

 

I'm not hoping for this storyline to fall apart but I do find it odd that after all the problems they've had getting actors to commit, and after all the whining over Stevens leaving, they're filling the role of Mary's suitor with an actor with availability issues.

 

Where do you have that information about Charles Edwards? I've never heard anything official being said about why Gregson was killed? He did a play in the Westend towards the end of series 4, but that has not hindered other cast members to do the show anyway. Samantha Bond has been in a play during series 5, Allen Leech has been in a play during series 2 and Penelope Wilton will be in a  play until the End of March (they start filming Mid February).

Also EMG has toured with her Band last year all February and March and still she was able to film the show.

 

Dan Stevens gave notice when his contract was over and open for new negotiations. As did Jessica Brown-Findlay and Siobhean Finneran. That was a blow to the show, but they can't give longer contracts in England anyway, so it couldn't be helped (and still can't).

 

Gareth Neame said this summer when they did the TCA tour that "they talk to the actors in advance now" and that they "don't want to run in another Matthew Crawley situation".

 

So IMO they can only have hired Matthew Goode for the CS with an option for two more seasons (that would be the maximum that is possible). Otherwise they wouldn't have hired him. And for that they will have talked to the producers of TGW about a scheduling.

 

I think (after what Allen Leech said about wanting to do another 2 seasons and after what GN said about talking to the actors in advance), that they talked to the actors prior to series 5 about new contracts even though officially the negotiations would have been only due before series 6. But "in advance" means they didn't leave  it till the last moment like they did  in series 3. So to me it means they know exactly where everyone's limit is.

[Eolivet]

Dan Stevens gave notice when his contract was over and open for new negotiations. As did Jessica Brown-Findlay and Siobhean Finneran. That was a blow to the show, but they can't give longer contracts in England anyway, so it couldn't be helped (and still can't).

 

Gareth Neame said this summer when they did the TCA tour that "they talk to the actors in advance now" and that they "don't want to run in another Matthew Crawley situation".

 

I agree with most of what you said, but there was a huge difference between how Jessica Brown-Findlay left and Dan Stevens left. From interviews, Findlay said she told the producers during season 2 that she had no interest in going beyond 3 seasons. So, Fellowes had about a year to plan for Sybil -- including her marriage, pregnancy and laying the groundwork in 3x01 through her death in 3x05. Dan Stevens gave his notice at the start of season 3, with Fellowes having written 3x01-3x05 already, forcing a dramatic change in what was planned already for season 3. The distinction I draw between them is it always seemed like Stevens followed the letter, but not the spirit, of the law. (i.e., if he really had no intention in going beyond 3 seasons, he should've told the producers in season 2 and let Matthew die during the war or something).

 

But I've always thought that's the reason Mary's suitors have been so lacking in depth -- because they need a moment's-notice exit strategy in case conflicts arise with the actors' schedules. Ironically, it's the same strategy Fellowes wanted to employ with Matthew ("suddenly called away on business for months on end") before Stevens said he wanted a clean break. So, I can easily see Matthew Goode coming back for a few episodes a season and then "being called away on business" before he returns again. It allows the audience not to get too invested if the suitor doesn't work out (indemnifying the show from the ire of the viewers), and the actors don't have to sign away their lives to Downton in order to appear on it. Win/win.

[amensisterfriend]

I  just started reading this thread by accident, too dopey and oblivious to realize initially this was an episode that hadn't aired yet here in the states, but I have to tell you guys that I have never, ever been so happy to have accidentally been spoiled!!! While not all of the developments sound like ones I'll be turning cartwheels over, the Carson and Hughes stuff will be among the highlights of my TV-obsessed life. One look at my avatar should tell you just how happy this makes me :) Thank you all so much for making my entire day without even meaning to! 

[Andorra]

 

I agree with most of what you said, but there was a huge difference between how Jessica Brown-Findlay left and Dan Stevens left. From interviews, Findlay said she told the producers during season 2 that she had no interest in going beyond 3 seasons. So, Fellowes had about a year to plan for Sybil -- including her marriage, pregnancy and laying the groundwork in 3x01 through her death in 3x05. Dan Stevens gave his notice at the start of season 3, with Fellowes having written 3x01-3x05 already, forcing a dramatic change in what was planned already for season 3. The distinction I draw between them is it always seemed like Stevens followed the letter, but not the spirit, of the law. (i.e., if he really had no intention in going beyond 3 seasons, he should've told the producers in season 2 and let Matthew die during the war or something).

 

Well, he still was in his right though. It wasn't his fault that they waited so long to talk about the contract with him. They could have tried to nail him down earlier. I don't think he deliberately waited so long, but more that maybe the opportunitiy to move to the US opened for him very late. He did sign a big contract with a US agency but I don't remember when that was.

 

Jessica Brown-Findlay was only 23 when she left. Very young and Downton was almost her first project. She has no family to provide for she could take a risk, but Dan Stevens had a wife and two little children. He said that he wanted to take the opportunity to go the US as long as his children were small and that it had always been a dream for him.

 

It wasn't ideal, but contract is contract.

[ZoloftBlob]

The distinction I draw between them is it always seemed like Stevens followed the letter, but not the spirit, of the law. (i.e., if he really had no intention in going beyond 3 seasons, he should've told the producers in season 2 and let Matthew die during the war or something).

 

Whereas I am willing to allow he may not have decided  until season three - that Jessica made her decision much earlier  is not necessarily a reason to hold it against Dan that he didn't decide until the start of season three. Its not like he came onto the set of the season three Christmas episode and quit in a huff. That Fellowes has a writing process that is awkward is unfortunate but really - as another poster has said - a contract is a contract and Fellowes knew when it ended just as much as Stevens did. Under any reasononable "not Downton Abbey" standard, Stevens gave reasonable notice. That Fellowes couldn't adapt the story and/or hesitated to change anything until he was absolutely certain he couldn't convince Stevens to stay ultimately is Fellowes's problem.

 

I mean, I get it - unlike Jessica, who could easily be written off, Dan leaving screwed the show. However everyone knew he had a three year contract and he gave notice at the start of season three. He may not have known until the end of season two when the writing was crapping out hard that he preferred to move on, but honestly, I don't know how giving notice at the start of season *two* would have had a different end result because Fellowes pretty much wanted the Mary/Matthew story (and per his sacred unmoveable writing schedule, would have had the first half of the season written anyway. I've said this before - if Matthew was that important to the story, the character should have been recast. But that didn't happen and considering that he was leaving, Dan still managed to put in a good job so I don' t think he was violating any spirit of the law by giving notice months ahead and making it clear he wasn't holding out for a better offer. Its very nice that Jessica gave a year and a half of notice, but its not a reasonable expectation to hold to everyone else.

[Tetraneutron]

 

But I've always thought that's the reason Mary's suitors have been so lacking in depth -- because they need a moment's-notice exit strategy in case conflicts arise with the actors' schedules. Ironically, it's the same strategy Fellowes wanted to employ with Matthew ("suddenly called away on business for months on end") before Stevens said he wanted a clean break. So, I can easily see Matthew Goode coming back for a few episodes a season and then "being called away on business" before he returns again.

I think the reason the post-Matthew love interests lack depth is because the show has to keep them apart for plot reasons, but there's no reason Mary, rich, secure, established, can't just pick whoever she wants. So the show tries to find reasons for conflict, drags everything out, has characters have no logical motivation. Dull.

 

If having the character drift in and out of the show is the strategy, they already have that with Blake. he can "return from Poland" whenever the show wants him back. He already has a history with Mary, and I suppose he's a better choice than Gillingham or Napier. We don't need to see Henry Talbot every episode but Mary IS the central character and her love life has always been the main plot. If she's going to fall in love with him it has to play out on screen.

[Eolivet]

He did sign a big contract with a US agency but I don't remember when that was.

 

February 2012. About a month before Downton filming started.

 

I don't know how giving notice at the start of season *two* would have had a different end result because Fellowes pretty much wanted the Mary/Matthew story (and per his sacred unmoveable writing schedule, would have had the first half of the season written anyway.

 

Torrid affair and quickie shotgun wedding, so Matthew dies at the end of S2, Mary gives birth to an heir and we spend three seasons, not two, looking for Matthew's replacement. Come on, that would've been fun! (kidding!)

 

I guess I don't expect to learn that much about Matthew Goode, given the precedent. I wouldn't be surprised if he's always just "Henry Talbot who races cars (and travels sometimes unexpectedly for long periods of time)."

[ZoloftBlob]

Torrid affair and quickie shotgun wedding, so Matthew dies at the end of S2, Mary gives birth to an heir and we spend three seasons, not two, looking for Matthew's replacement. Come on, that would've been fun! (kidding!)

 

Hhehehe so really, not a different outcome :D

[justjenna]

Surprisingly, The Good Wife has not given Matthew Goode very much screen time. He has a very "contained or limited" story so far in season 6. Still, he's been able to develop a fan base for the character. Interestingly, he referred to Finn as a "smallish role" in an interview on Huffington Post. It makes one wonder if the Downton Abbey deal was already in place when they asked him to be a regular on The Good Wife and they're hedging their bets or something. As someone who watches both programs, it appears Henry is more of a sure thing than Finn at this time.

[Andorra]

In the latest news about Downton we found out they're going to film in Lacock in March. The interesting thing about it: Lacock Abbey was the home of the Talbot family.

Coincidence? I think not.

[Badger]

I hate being late to the episode party but the holidays and work made it so that I couldn't watch the episode until now. I read comments before seeing it so I went in with lowered expectations and ended up enjoying the vast bulk of it.

I loved the proposal scene and was also moved to tears as a couple of other posters were. I think it's great that this show features so many interesting couples or would be couples that are older.

I loved all of the scenes at Alnwick Castle. It's for stuff like this that I continue to be devoted to this show.

Too bad about Isobel and Merton. I agree with those who feel that Isobel's behavior was out of character and that it would have felt natural for her to put up more of a fight. I also dislike Violet feeling that Dr Clarkson is acceptable while Lord Merton isn't because to me this suggests that Violet is threatened and/or feels uncomfortable with the idea of Isobel marrying a title whereas she's totally okay with Isobel marrying Clarkson because she feels that Clarkson is on Isobel's level. I just find that attitude to be distasteful and I forgive Violet for a lot stuff. I love the Isobel/Violet friendship but I think it could have remained intact even if one or both of the women had fully committed to their new relationships. I didn't expect Violet to end up with the prince but I did think Isobel had a chance with sweet Merton so that was a bummer.

I didn't think there was anything odd about Sinderby's kid being named Daniel and agree that it's unlikely that his mistress is Jewish. The guy is probably a total hypocrite and would likely have been disapproving if say he'd been in Robert's position with Robert being in his. I doubt he's been involved much in the life of that kid and that Diana more than likely chose the name.

Rose really is too sweet and I'm going to miss her if this ends up being her last appearance.

Loved Molesley and Baxter helping Bates. Pretty much the only thing I liked about the Bates storyline. For the record though I don't hate the characters of Anna or Bates I just feel that their storylines tend to be a drag and haven't really enjoyed them in a scene since the Christmas Special back in season 3.

I'm still unconvinced that AL is leaving for good. Is there any reason to think that the character can't come back at some point next season even if it's only for an episode or two? Same with Lily and the character of Rose?

I'm one of those who feel that it was worth it to keep Tom around and agree with ElizaD that it was great to see Tom win over characters like Mary, Edith, and Robert who weren't all that keen on him in the beginning. He won me over as he was winning them over and that wouldn't have happened for me if they'd never come back from Ireland.

Also, as much as I adore Tom now and would much prefer to see him stay, I have to agree with those who feel that his presence is no longer necessary and that the show shoud easily be able to go on without him. He just isn't that tied into the plot. He definitely could have been but the writing didn't go that way. In no way is he the only reason I watch the show. If that had been the case and he was the only reason I was sticking around I probably would have dumped the show back in the third or fourth season. Thankfully, I enjoy most of the characters and care very much what happens to most of them with the possible exception of horrible Thomas and even then I'll admit to being mildly curious.

I think Matthew Goode's character works and at no point did I think he was going overboard in that Gillingham-ish way where he thinks that Mary is IT five minutes after meeting her. This guy seemed put off by her more than once so I don't think this is going to be a case of Mary winning a guy over because he thinks she's the most beautiful woman in the world or anything like that. I also thought that he appreciated her honesty about what was going on regarding the shooting party. I personally would want to know if I was putting my hosts out so I wasn't offended that she let him know what the deal was. I got the impression that he was intrigued by her personality rather than being blown away by her beauty.

Drunk!Robert is one of my favorite flavors. My heart was also touched with Robert's half-hearted attempt to get his (favorite) grandchild to stay at Downton. Too sweet, and I know this will sounds ridiculous but I hate the thought of Sybbie developing an American accent. I'm American btw. ;-)

Oh--and at the risk of going into Real Housewives terminology for a moment--I thought it was hilarious that Violet basically admitted that she was a stealth slut back in the day. She even ended up in a hair pulling tussle over a guy like some participant on a reality show. I LOL over that reveal. I thought it was odd at first that she referred to herself as an Edwardian when her sexual adventures would have taken place in the Victorian era but maybe she was basically saying that she was part of Edward VII's "fast" set back when he was still Prince of Wales?

I was wondering about that too.  ITA it probably meant she was part of the "Marlborough Set" when Edward VII was Prince of Wales.  I'm also guessing her husband was a rather serious passionless type.

 

Back in Season 2, she told Lord Hepworth, the golddigger who was after Lady Rosamund (and having an affair with her maid) that she remembered being chased around Balmoral by his father in the 1860's so we know her family knew the Royal Family.

[Wordsworth]

The Christmas Special was very busy.  Way too many things happening.  I was also tired of being able to predict what was going to happen.   For example, as soon as Anna mentions a stepfather, I think, "Oh, no, they're going there." Or as soon as a pair of women's feet and a little child's feet appear outside the car, I started groaning.  Mr. Wordsworth, who knows my sounds well, asks me who they are.  I answer, "Lord Sinderby's illegitimate child".  

 

Just please say that Mr. Green's death has gone away for good.  I like Anna & Bates and wish they would have happier lives.  

 

And I loved Mr. Carson's proposal.  He looked like he was going to cry when she accepted.

 

So the season of marriages & proposals has ended.  It began with Mary contemplating how to handle Tony's proposal.  Then we saw people in unhappy marriages like the Kuragins and the Flintshires.  People pondering whether someone is the right person for them - Tom & Sarah, Tony & Mary followed by Mabel Lane Fox, Isobel & Lord Merton.  We saw how secrets caused problems in the Bates and Grantham marriages.  We saw a Big Secret that could doom the Sinderby marriage.  Atticus & Rose meeting and marrying.  Molesley & Baxter discussing rings.  And Mr. Carson proposing to Mrs. Hughes caps the theme.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Wordsworth

[justjenna]

 Matthew Goode Hits It Big With ‘Good Wife,’ ‘Downton Abbey’ Roles

 

He sounds excited about Henry. I will be surprised if he is back on The Good Wife for season 7 due to all that's going on in his life. He made the most of his three Finn minutes an episode but thus far, they haven't given him much to do at all. 

[Andorra]

And Allen Leech has now said he plans to "stick with the show till the end".

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/arts-video/video-leech-to-stick-with-downton-til-the-end/article23223483/?cmpid=rss1&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

And he has done an AMA on reddit two days ago, where he wrote in his chat profile: "I have two scripts for the next season"

 

So since we know the actors have 5 scripts so far, we can assume that Tom might come back in episode 4.

[apgold]

I know this is OT but

 

 

I used to watch a show called "House of Eliott" when I was a kid, it was shown on A&E here in the US and it's one of my favorite shows of all time.  The costumes were exquisite but the production values of that show were so poor, it looked like it was filmed in someones basement.  I don't know if things have changed that much in production in general or just that this show isn't with the BBC, so there's more money available but Downton really is a feast for the eyes.

 

I remember that show!  Jean Marsh wrote and produced it, IIRC.  Loved the designing Elliott sisters and yes, they must've sunk most of their budget into the costumes b/c the sets looked cheap.  I think it was also videotaped and not filmed.  That was back when A&E was more of a PBS kind of network and not full of reality shows.

[ElizaD]

So since we know the actors have 5 scripts so far, we can assume that Tom might come back in episode 4.

 

I still wonder why they had him leave, but if he's gone for 3 episodes that will at least give his time away a little more weight than it would have had if he'd returned instantly.

[Andorra]

I still wonder why they had him leave, but if he's gone for 3 episodes that will at least give his time away a little more weight than it would have had if he'd returned instantly.

 

They will probably do a time jump, too. So he might be gone for longer than it appears now.

[stopeslite]

 

I got the impression that as he jumped in the car and drove off, she was staring after him with her tongue practically hanging out. To me, she looked fascinated, intrigued and very interested BECAUSE of the car.

 

It may be because I can't stand Mary, but I thought it wasn't so much because of the car as because he could obviously afford that car, popping him up in a more "suitable" price range for her.

[dizzyd]

Yay for the proposal which a lot of us were shipping for a few years.  (clapping excitedly) 

 

I loved the sendoff that Branson got.  Damn, I'm going to miss him so much.

 

I liked the Sybil love, Robert and Edith and of course the clothes.  I hope the new men in the Crawley sisters lives are going to be interesting.  I can see that Henry is quite cocky, which should be perfect for Mary.

 

Didn't care for the rude butler, I didn't need to see any Tom abuse when we're already going to lose him.  Didn't care for the Russians especially since they've taken away all the Vi-Issy fun and I don't like Merton or Karagin, so hope that's definitely over.  Didn't care for Lord Sinderby's illicit exploits, although it did get him to accept Rose . And I have never ever cared for the perpetual soporific Bates saga. 

Edited March 2, 2015 by dizzyd

[jah1986]

Well that was satisfying. Loved the Carson/Hughes engagement, I don't care if they are old etc. I'm so happy that they are thinking about themselves after all these years and are going to have some happiness and hopefully retire. Unlike Isobel, I understand her decision but it was sad.

 

It was so nice seeing Tom, Mary and Edith in the nursery remembering Sybil. I know some people love mean, spiteful Mary but personally I love when she's decent to Edith and I would love to see them be kinder to each other next season. Can't wait to hear Marigold say 'Donk'.

 

Yay for Thomas using his evil powers to help the family, although that almost blew up in everyone's face.

 

Please no more Bates/Anna drama, ever again.

 

I hope next season is that last one and that they go out in style.

[LittleIggy]

I think my neighbors heard me squeal with delight at THE engagement! :-) I just wish Donk had gotten a puppy for Christmas.

[Avaleigh]

I think my neighbors heard me squeal with delight at THE engagement! :-) I just wish Donk had gotten a puppy for Christmas.

The image of Donk, Sybbie, and a puppy is pretty sweet.

[Cyranetta]

I could probably happily see this "Christmas episode" as a series finale if I could get a half-hour British sit-com of Isobel and Violet meddling in the lives of all and sundry and snarking at each other in the process. What a wonderful dynamic has been developed for those two.

[Primetimer]

When the Crawleys go on a shooting holiday with the Sinderbys, Mary gets thrown in the path of an eligible gentleman she's somehow never met before. And don't sleep on the C-plot: Denker makes some broth!

Read the story