S01.E17: Red Hood

[Danielg342]

A house like that should have the equivalent of a museum staff just to keep it dusted. Of all the things I've seen on this wild and crazy show, the notion that one man could run a house like that with absolutely no support is the most unbelievable.

Maybe one day we'll see Bruce with a very bad cold after dealing with all the dust he's had to inhale.

Come to think of it, I think I have seen him sniffle a few times...

[Perfect Xero]

A house like that should have the equivalent of a museum staff just to keep it dusted. Of all the things I've seen on this wild and crazy show, the notion that one man could run a house like that with absolutely no support is the most unbelievable.

 

But that one man is Alfred Pennyworth, he's the Batman of butlers.

[Camera One]

This episode was a bit too violent for my liking.  The Red Hood thing started out interesting but just became a killing fest.  The subplots were weirdly tedious and boring.  I wasn't interested in Alfred's old friend at all.  He seemed like a total drunk.  The use of Barbara this time was slightly new, at least.  

 

So the entire board of WE is corrupt and willing to sanction murder?  Geez, Thomas Wayne really was a bad judge of character if he was willing to allow all of them to keep their jobs.  

 

That's a big step in making Bruce's parents completely oblivious, and I don't like that.  

 

"Stand back, or I will dismember myself!!"  WtF, indeed. How is it that anyone thinks she is in a position to negotiate, or why she thinks she controls 'the Basement'. And then she passes out .. Why not take the other eye and make her completely dependent? 

 

 

Agreed.  It was shocking, but give me a freak'in break.  Why would the doctor care if she scooped out her eyes and destroyed it?  It's not like she has the most treasured and unique eyes on Earth.  And now she's completely incapacitated and at their mercy.  Grrrrrreat plan.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

A house like that should have the equivalent of a museum staff just to keep it dusted. Of all the things I've seen on this wild and crazy show, the notion that one man could run a house like that with absolutely no support is the most unbelievable.

We did see that there was at least a Wayne Manor groundskeeper in the episode in which assassins came for Cat-Tween. 

[Sandman]

I always assume Alfred's cranky 'cause he's so overworked. ("Them Fabergé knicknacks ain't dustin' themselves, my lad!")

[patchwork]

I just assumed they had day staff or a cleaning company that comes in a few times a week. After the Waynes death there wasn't a need for a lot of full time, live in staff and Alfred can handle the washing, cleaning, cooking work for himself and Bruce.  

[Shanna]

I just assumed they had day staff or a cleaning company that comes in a few times a week. After the Waynes death there wasn't a need for a lot of full time, live in staff and Alfred can handle the washing, cleaning, cooking work for himself and Bruce.

Same. I assume they have day staff and that they stay out of Bruce and Alfred's way!

[FamilyVan]

Best line of the night:  First you had a purse, now you've got a nurse.  I love Harvey.

[shapeshifter]

Snookums, lol at the guppy eyepatch.  I was picturing something gold and diamond encrusted. 

I assumed that if she survives, she'd get a cyber-eye that could see through walls, shoot poison darts, etc. But I do like the mini-aquarium idea since eyes are wet.

[immortalfrieza]

I just assumed they had day staff or a cleaning company that comes in a few times a week. After the Waynes death there wasn't a need for a lot of full time, live in staff and Alfred can handle the washing, cleaning, cooking work for himself and Bruce.  

I found it being just Alfred more believable after the whole "Wayne running from assassins" episode. After that I'm pretty sure Wayne and Alfred wouldn't want to risk any more of their staff getting murdered.

[FatesKnight]

I admit I had to drool a bit when Bruce broke out one of the best wines produced in the world and, what is right now, about a 10,000 dollar bottle of wine for Alfred and Reggie of the Regiment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman%C3%A9e-Conti

The eye thing was creepy as hell but at least it gave Fish SOMETHING other than just being randomly over the top with. . .whatever the hell it is she does. At this point, they should just keep her restrained in that jacket. I'd say drugs, but the amount needed to keep her out all the time would start boxing her kidneys and tainting her liver, two of the most profitable organs (both for need and ease of transport). So, I can see why they don't just drug her, but it seems like they could restrain her and that would be it.

I liked the Red Hood plot starting from one mook deciding to get flamboyant and stupid who then got lucky. And then he attributed it to the hood. Then the other criminals attributed it to the hood. It fed into one theme: criminals are a cowardly and superstitious lot. In the Batman/Gotham universe, criminals are easily swayed by omens, symbols, and other magical thinking, and this story was yet another subtle nod to that idea.

I like that Penguin still has a learning curve. We can see the points where he's going to be a kingpin style supervillain, but also the parts where he's young and still new at this. He's, what, in his mid-20's? Late 20's, maybe. Six months ago, he was Fish's umbrella boy, it's a little unrealistic he would know how to turn around a struggling club. He needs to learn how to lean on Butch a bit, but not become dependent on him (which is probably why he hasn't been asking Butch for help.)

Also, I loved the eyewitness. Just a little quirky character touch that made him interesting and funny. I especially loved the part about how he needed parking tickets fixed  because his wife is crazy. . .but then needed a ride home because his girlfriend would freak out if he were in a police car. I like to think it's not an inconsistency and he really has a crazy wife and a girlfriend who seems. . .off. Also, so much love for Bullock because you gotta.

[Milz]

The eye thing was creepy as hell but at least it gave Fish SOMETHING other than just being randomly over the top with. . .whatever the hell it is she does. At this point, they should just keep her restrained in that jacket. I'd say drugs, but the amount needed to keep her out all the time would start boxing her kidneys and tainting her liver, two of the most profitable organs (both for need and ease of transport). So, I can see why they don't just drug her, but it seems like they could restrain her and that would be it.

 

 

Yeah, there's nothing to stop them from drugging Fish and removing kidneys and liver, then dumping her somewhere. (Or having Fish wake up in a bath tub full of ice and a note nearby directing her to call 911 immediately because her organs have been removed.)  ;-)

[FatesKnight]

Yeah, there's nothing to stop them from drugging Fish and removing kidneys and liver, then dumping her somewhere. (Or having Fish wake up in a bath tub full of ice and a note nearby directing her to call 911 immediately because her organs have been removed.)  ;-)

Timing and need for organs would hold that. You want to get them out of the body and into a new body in hours , so they can't just have themsitting around in ice waiting for a buyer. They need here, for lack of a better term, a living storage unit for the organs. They need to be as fersh possible, like farm to table restaurants.

[Milz]

Timing and need for organs would hold that. You want to get them out of the body and into a new body in hours , so they can't just have themsitting around in ice waiting for a buyer. They need here, for lack of a better term, a living storage unit for the organs. They need to be as fersh possible, like farm to table restaurants.

That also depends on the organ. kidneys and liver need to be used almost immediately (within hours). Corneas can be stored for a couple of weeks. Blood and blood products can be stored for months. Bone can be stored for a few years, iirc.

[FatesKnight]

That also depends on the organ. kidneys and liver need to be used almost immediately (within hours). Corneas can be stored for a couple of weeks. Blood and blood products can be stored for months. Bone can be stored for a few years, iirc.

The previous poster mentioned kindey and liver, so I was going by those. Heart, lungs, etc are that way as well, hours not day. I had forgotten about corneas, but Fish only has one usable one left, so possibly less of an issue. And I doubt they're hold people in pens for bone ot blood. Bone typing is such a bitch there's no way short of holding a small country hostage that they would have a chance of matching one or two specific people on demand.

Meta note, it's sad we're feeling the need to nitpick like this on a comic book show (high fantasy, low to medium reality, high drama) but awesome we're all cool with it.

[Milz]

The previous poster mentioned kindey and liver, so I was going by those. Heart, lungs, etc are that way as well, hours not day. I had forgotten about corneas, but Fish only has one usable one left, so possibly less of an issue. And I doubt they're hold people in pens for bone ot blood. Bone typing is such a bitch there's no way short of holding a small country hostage that they would have a chance of matching one or two specific people on demand.

Meta note, it's sad we're feeling the need to nitpick like this on a comic book show (high fantasy, low to medium reality, high drama) but awesome we're all cool with it.

 

As the poster who mentioned kidney and lungs, I agree with you that the nitpicking IS sad. In fact, it's so incredibly sad that that I made no mention about the shelf life of kidneys and liver in that post and yet it became an issue. Sad.

[MisterGlass]

I'll take nitpicking over trolling any day.

[MarkHB]

(It is a bit eye-rolling that Bruno Heller once again thought a woman's only weapon is her sexuality but I'll take what I can get)

I think it's Barbara's only weapon, or at least the only weapon she has let herself know and grow accustomed to.  If Heller is to blame for Barbara's outlook, then we have to give him credit for Selina's effective reply of "if it's so great, why are you hanging out with two homeless kids who squatted in your apartment because you don't have any other friends?"

[ratgirlagogo]

 

why are you hanging out with two homeless kids who squatted in your apartment because you don't have any other friends?"

Where's her fucking art gallery?  Surely she must know a lot of people doing that.  I could speculate that maybe she's too embarrassed to be around them but as far what the show has given me SHE DOESN'T HAVE AN ART GALLERY AND DOESN'T KNOW ANYONE IN GOTHAM.

[Danielg342]

I think it's Barbara's only weapon, or at least the only weapon she has let herself know and grow accustomed to. If Heller is to blame for Barbara's outlook, then we have to give him credit for Selina's effective reply of "if it's so great, why are you hanging out with two homeless kids who squatted in your apartment because you don't have any other friends?"

For me, it's more of a question of Bruno Heller not being able to think of any “weapons” for women outside of their sexuality. I'll grant that Fish is getting better in this regard but her strongest weapon is still her sexuality- that's how she won control of the prison. Plus when she hired “a weapon” to take down Falcone, she hired a beautiful young woman whom she thought Falcone would take advantage of sexually (one of Liza's messages to Fish was that “he still hasn't touched me yet”).

Then there's Renee, whose only real storyline in the entire series is to serve as a “love triangle” with Jim and Barbara, with Renee's function being to placate Barbara's “wild” (and thus more sexual) side. Even Selina Kyle went this route, pressuring Bruce to kiss her.

Granted, there are Essen and Lee, but Essen doesn't do much except bark orders and Lee is serving as a foil for Jim's love, and Lee hasn't shied away from being seductive herself.

Meanwhile, the men can have all sorts of other traits- Jim and Harvey Dent with their altruism, Bullock's sense of pragmatism and jadedness, Falcone and his cunning, Maroni and his ruthlessness, Oswald and his deceit, Alfred and his military-like mind and even Bruce and his sense of justice. Not a single one of them serves as simply a “sexual object” (although I grant Jim gets close).

So it's clear to me that Heller believes that women serve only one role- and that is to be a sexual being- which is, at worst sexist and at best unimaginative. I like that perhaps he's self-aware with Selina's line but that doesn't make up for his female characterization so far.

[Luckylyn]

I've been wondering why they haven't just killed Fish yet and was thinking that maybe she has a rare blood type.  A person like that would be too valuable to kill and Fish would know that.   I guess that's unlikely or it would have come up already on the show.

[MisterGlass]

I hope that in the next season the roles of the female characters are improved.  They do not all need to be some combination of moody, impulsive, and quirky.  I take Renee's complete absence from the show of late as recognition of how badly the Renee/Barbara plot was handeled.  I hope that if and when she returns, she is used as a competent character.  The show could benefit from more female officers, even if they are only in minor roles.  Essen has improved, and has at least had opportunities for decision making.

I think Selina's line was the best moment in that scene.  I am starting to worry about her, though, because this is another episode where we have only seen her in Barbara's apartment.  She used to be the most free character on the show, appearing and disappearing at will.  I would hate for her to be trapped in Barbara's little world (maybe the art gallery is all-digital?).  If this continues, I'd like to see Selina and Pamela Ivy leave Barbara.  I'm glad that they have food and shelter and safety, but I'm worried about their future the longer they stay with her.

[Lazlo]

So it's clear to me that Heller believes that women serve only one role- and that is to be a sexual being- which is, at worst sexist and at best unimaginative. I like that perhaps he's self-aware with Selina's line but that doesn't make up for his female characterization so far.

 

I wouldn't say the characterisation of women on the show is exceptional but I don't see this at all. For me the scene (via Cat) was very firmly stating that Barbara is an idiot and a loser and her inability to bring anything to the table other than her looks is intended to be seen as pathetic.

 

Leslie is a clever doctor who has helped Gordon out in his cases, Captain Essen is a pragmatic cop but the only authority figure we've seen who is not hopelessly compromised, Cat gave Bruce some valuable (if tough) life lessons and is looking after Ivy (and Barbara really) and Fish managed to unite her fellow prisoners through force of personality, then call her captors bluff. We've had female assassains and corrupt businesswomen too. None of them were defined entirely by their sexuality.

 

Granted Renee has vanished but so have Allen and the Mayor, both of whom were heavy players in early episodes. She'll be back I'm sure even if I can't say I like the character.

[Danielg342]

I wouldn't say the characterisation of women on the show is exceptional but I don't see this at all. For me the scene (via Cat) was very firmly stating that Barbara is an idiot and a loser and her inability to bring anything to the table other than her looks is intended to be seen as pathetic.

Leslie is a clever doctor who has helped Gordon out in his cases, Captain Essen is a pragmatic cop but the only authority figure we've seen who is not hopelessly compromised, Cat gave Bruce some valuable (if tough) life lessons and is looking after Ivy (and Barbara really) and Fish managed to unite her fellow prisoners through force of personality, then call her captors bluff. We've had female assassains and corrupt businesswomen too. None of them were defined entirely by their sexuality.

Granted Renee has vanished but so have Allen and the Mayor, both of whom were heavy players in early episodes. She'll be back I'm sure even if I can't say I like the character.

I think mileage will have to vary on this one, although I will point out the Zsaszettes are pretty dominatrix-like and the assassin at Wayne Manor wore a “sexy catsuit” (underneath a leather jacket, mind you).

I do believe the show is getting better in this regard, but I still believe there's far too much of an imbalance between male characters and female characters. Granted, the Batman universe is similarly slanted- the best known characters, except Catwoman, are male- but I don't see that as a viable excuse.

For me, at the very least, I want to see Essen have more of a role and have some actual, viable storylines. She's a good character, she just needs to stop being in the background all the time.

[Actionmage]

I think mileage will have to vary on this one, although I will point out the Zsaszettes are pretty dominatrix-like and the assassin at Wayne Manor wore a “sexy catsuit” (underneath a leather jacket, mind you).

 

 

Calling costuming "poor characterization" seems to be missing the mark. There has been no writing to deepen those characters and clothes, despite the saying, do not make the woman.  Pointing to clothing that has a purpose, not solely show their sexuality ( because the hired guns didn't sex up/flirt with the cops they shot/shot at, nor the same with Butch) is feeding into that mindset. " Tight clothes = sexay!"   Mileage, obviously, varies.

[Danielg342]

Calling costuming "poor characterization" seems to be missing the mark. There has been no writing to deepen those characters and clothes, despite the saying, do not make the woman. Pointing to clothing that has a purpose, not solely show their sexuality ( because the hired guns didn't sex up/flirt with the cops they shot/shot at, nor the same with Butch) is feeding into that mindset. " Tight clothes = sexay!" Mileage, obviously, varies.

I can't see any other reason for the Zsaszettes' attire other than to show off their sex appeal. You said it, they've had *no* characterization, and I can't judge a character based on what I don't see. What I do see, thus, are them as nothing but objects...and those objects are svelte women dolled up with “Gothic” makeup wearing tight, revealing and (essentially) impractical clothing (each of them shows off their cleavage or their belly- that's target practice for a shooter- plus none of those clothes provide a great spot to hide a gun). They're clearly easy on the eyes, and they're ones you notice right away.

Perhaps their costumes serve another purpose. Perhaps. However, if they were supposed to be anything other than sexy, then why aren't they wearing trenchcoats and fedoras too? Certainly trained assassins would wear clothes that would allow them to hide their guns, at the very least. The Zsaszettes just don't do that.

Don't get me wrong, I like sexy, and I think the Zsaszettes' brand of sexy- the dark, brooding kind- fits their role as Victor's understudies. I just don't think they- right now- have any other role other than as eye candy.

[MisterGlass]

Costumes and styling do contribute a lot to characterization, especially when they are all the audience has to judge a character.  Compare Alfred's appearance to Bullock's - discipline versus entropy, and it's clear at once.

 

I can buy that the Zaszettes have a dress code - Victor's an odd duck after all - but no competent assassin should wear stiletto heels to a knock down drag out fight.  They'd all end up with twisted ankles.

[immortalfrieza]

I can buy that the Zaszettes have a dress code - Victor's an odd duck after all - but no competent assassin should wear stiletto heels to a knock down drag out fight.  They'd all end up with twisted ankles.

No kidding, but fictional characters wearing stuff that is incredibly impractical if not outright dangerous for their line of work just because the writers think it looks good or cool or whatever is a pretty standard thing.

[Actionmage]

Here's a picture of the women in costume.

http://www.geekgirlpenpals.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/victorZsaz.jpg

 

No stilettos. Because Media and Pop Culture have us expecting them even when they aren't there. Also, no "gothic" make-up. (http://previously.tv/m/2015-01-27-gotham18.jpg)

 

If they get dinged for "inappropriate for the work" outfits, why not Victor? He doesn't seem to have Kevlar on, just a usual business suit. Because his suit is bulletproof? He'd look bulkier if he has it, even if it's just panels in his jacket.  Wait. Okay found this (http://www.gizmag.com/bulletproof-suit-carbon-nanotube-garrison/29677/), but the then-current price tag was just over $19k. I think that Carmine respects Victor, but not for more than one of those. Granted, we only see him working, so... *g* 

 

and I can't judge a character based on what I don't see.

 

So don't judge. I still don't see questions over the lower-rung mobsters and their clothing . They are hitmen and yes men and whatever their Dons and immediate bosses want them to be. Just like Victor's hitwomen.

 

 IA with Daniel's statement of liking sexy. Sexy can be very positive. If the only reason "you" are seeing them as sexual objects only is Because Wardrobe, that is where we're going to have to agree to disagree. 

 

(Pictures of Copperhead: http://p1cdn03.thewrap.com/images/2014/11/gotham-1.jpg and http://i.imgur.com/v6nwI1K.jpg; I also believe Copperhead was wearing boots, not stilettos.)

[Danielg342]

So don't judge. I still don't see questions over the lower-rung mobsters and their clothing . They are hitmen and yes men and whatever their Dons and immediate bosses want them to be. Just like Victor's hitwomen.

Perhaps "judge" was the wrong word. "Evaluate" would have been better. Anyhow that's semantics.

As far as "asking the question" goes, I think it boils down to the very Western tendency to "doll up" their female characters but not the male characters, which holds true for this show. Other than Jim Gordon in a tank top at the end of 1.12, I can't think of another male character whose clothing could be considered "sexy". Meanwhile, you can run down the gamut and rhyme off Barbara, Fish, the Zsaszettes, Liza and even at times Lee and Kris Kringle's "form-fitting" sweater from 1.18. Only Sarah Essen, it seems, is the only character of note that hasn't dressed in something more suitable for bedtime, and she doesn't get used much. It might not be apparent all the time but the show is more likely to "dress up" a female character than a male character.

...and this is not just something Gotham does- a lot of shows do this, and I think the pervasiveness of it leads- rightly or wrongly- to people noticing women's clothing as opposed to male clothing. I think too much of it gets made of it- there shouldn't be anything wrong with women being sexy on TV- and I've got no problem with this show being filled with lovely ladies. I just wish Bruno Heller would do more with the women of this show than use them as love interests or sexual objects, because that's all they seem to fill. Essen and Montoya seem to have some potential in this regard, but they're not being used enough for my satisfaction.

[MisterGlass]

Copperhead grappling with Alfred, wearing extra high heels.  I agree that Victor's clothing is also stereotypically 'hitman,' but it is not as over the top as what his associates are wearing.  I think Victor could still walk down the street without drawing the attention of every passerby.

[Kel Varnsen]

I admit I had to drool a bit when Bruce broke out one of the best wines produced in the world and, what is right now, about a 10,000 dollar bottle of wine for Alfred and Reggie of the Regiment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman%C3%A9e-Conti

 

Speaking of wine, come on Alfred, knowing what his life has been like the past 6 months, you can't pour Bruce a small glass of his own wine? Especially considering you are British.

 

Also speaking of booze, Barbara was hitting it hard. She was drinking something clear on the balcony with Selina, then when she came inside she picked up an almost full glass of red wine she already had on the go.

[jhlipton]

Taking the clothing / sexuality issue to Small Talk

[John Potts]

I was really disappointed that the (first) Red Hood got whacked - him I could believe as the Joker (of course "Mister J" is also notorious for coming back from apparent death, so who knows?). I also wondered if the Joker fangirl Gordon & Harvey were talking to might be called Harriet Quinn and turn up again...

 

Barbara was in this!? I either missed the twenty seconds she was in or I just completely blanked her (neither of which is particularly encouraging for Erin Richards)

 

Mister Glass I didn't expect Alfred's friend to be a Wayne Enterprises mercenary either, but I like the twist and the continuity with last week.

 

 

Yeah, that twist actually caught me by surprise. I was expecting a "Good intentions often go astray" moral, particularly when Bruce offered the (implied) alcoholic wine. I guess the Board are hoping to run Bruce out of town (given his trip to Switzerland earlier this Season) rather than kill him since two Wayne murders would look a little suspicious even in Gotham.

 

Maelstrom Agree that Oswald seemed uncharacteristically clueless, but I did love his exasperated, "Well this is inconvenient!" when the 'cops' showed up. Hee.

 

I'm happy that Butch, despite Victor's "treatment" still has some of his faculties about him. Of course, if he didn't he'd be useless to Penguin (and by extension, Falcone). And to go slightly OT, maybe Victor hires his Zzazzettes for the same reason a magician hires a sexy assistant - they're to draw the eye away from what the boss is doing. If so, the more ridiculously (or sexily) they're dressed, the better!

 

Another thing I definitely didn't expect was Fish putting out her own eye - now there's a woman who is prepared to share in the sacrifices she expects her followers to take. Though if I were the boss (Vorta Weyoun!) I'd simply write the whole lot off as a loss, sell their corpses as dogfood and start with another batch.