Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Camera One]

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what she prefers, if only because actors can't control the writing.  

 

I just think it goes without saying that Jennifer Morrison would still have been able to do an awesome job, if the writing had gone the other direction and had devoted time to Emma dealing with and working through her past with Neal.  Of course, that would have necessitated time to have Neal honestly face his past (and expand upon it, to show us what really made him change into Neal), and what he did to Emma, and then deal with his unresolved issues with Rumple, plus the unavoidable guilt of missing much of Henry's childhood.  The writers might have considered all this too "real life" and they didn't want to write it.  It's so much more of a "magical" love story to have the dashing Hook change for Emma, parting with the thing he loved the most, his ship.  Please excuse me while I go swoon.

[ShadowFacts]

 

She simply had no basis to know what love was supposed to feel like, so she thought the pain she felt was it.

 

True, and she may have also felt some residual love for him that was never going to amount to any kind of relationship other than co-parents or friends.

 

Because I cannot think of a single reason why Emma should have trusted Neal with her heart again since he treated it so shoddily the first time and gave her no real explanation as to why he did so and since he'd had the opportunity to find her again and decided to leave her behind instead. That's someone you put in your rearview mirror, not someone you go running back to, imo.

 

Right, she wouldn't realistically trust him especially because of that time gap and knowing he could have contacted her in jail at the least (unless he was dead or in custody somewhere else I suppose). That was probably the type of relationship that wouldn't have survived even if he had stuck around--a baby, a couple of grifters, immaturity, it doesn't point to longevity for their relationship even if he had done the right thing.  But at least he would have done the right thing.

[FabulousTater]

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what she prefers, if only because actors can't control the writing. 

I just think it goes without saying that Jennifer Morrison would still have been able to do an awesome job

Ya, I'm not saying she wouldn't have done it well. IA. I think Morrison would've done an excellent job with whatever they gave her. My point is that...even the actress who plays the character seems to think the idea is whack. Coming at it from the Emma's point of view, JMo, who I think gives waaaay more thought to Emma's motivations than the writers (who, yes, are the ones in control of the story), she (IMO) just didn't see Emma taking Nealfire back, at least not in a way that would've been honest to her character and organic.

 

I mean, just look. The writing had to whitewash the hell out of Nealfire and slap the unearned label of "hero" on his cold corpse to make Emma's boo-hoo-hooing over his death (AGAIN) remotely believable (to me anyway).

Edited July 24, 2014 by FabulousTater

[KingOfHearts]

Continuing Walsh discussion in Unanswered Questions thread:

 

Her relationship with Walsh may not have been a total lie. I do think Walsh liked Emma, not True Love, but it would have been a great twist if he had come during 3x16 and told Emma he loved her and that he was forced to do Zelena's bidding because of the monkey spell. Would have rather had that than the Marian thing or the Kiss Curse. But I feel like this was another example of catering to shippers (CS ones in this case) for the popularity.

 

Since Walsh spent 8 months with Emma and apparently had lots of experiences with her, I do think he had to have some attraction to her after all that time.

Edited July 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I actually thought Walsh was used to show that Emma had gotten past her relationship issues that Neal had left her with. She was still scared to take the leap, but the Emma who first arrived in Storybrooke would never have even been in the relationship to start with. The fact that she was actually going to accept the proposal while still thinking the absolute worst of Neal meant that she was ready to trust in love again and move on from the pain and fear she'd been carrying for all of those years. I liked that they showed Emma decide to go for it without knowing about any mitigating circumstances of the Neal abandonment. Having him be evil was just an easy way to get him out of the picture and give Emma a reason to leave New York.

 

I also think that having Emma in a long term relationship and realize that it could be good (ignoring the flying monkey aspect) did allow for the Neal/Emma relationship to end with them on a friendly basis where Emma was able to talk and laugh with him and remember the good things about their past. That last conversation between the two of them was always what I thought was best case scenario for Neal/Emma. It showed an Emma who is no longer stuck in that morass of pain and hurt that lead to her wishing Neal dead so she didn't have to deal and a Neal who'd pretty well accepted that they were never going to be together. Granted it was written that way because Neal was going to die in five minutes, but it fit with how the year apart had changed Emma. That year did a lot for Emma's ability to deal with her past and Walsh, bad guy or not, was a big part of that development.

Edited July 25, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

Walsh was also thrown in there for spring-premiere drama. I can see it now: "Not only has Emma been memoryless, she has a fiance!" It was twist that would have been great if they had dealt with it as a normal relationship without the monkey thing, but again the writers just write stuff to get your attention, then make it go away without dealing with it. Walsh was written in there for New York City Serenade and nothing else.

[Jean]

I actually like that Walsh wasn't in love with her. It underscores the fact that Emma isn't the super special snowflake of the show. Makes it easy to root for her. I bet people would have found it annoying that she would've had 3 guys in love with her at that point. So I guess there's something to be said for not being a writers' pet. I never bought that she was in love with him anyway. More like she was in love with the idea of being in love. I think it's telling that the NYC exchange when she was listing all the good stuff was "I have someone I love" vs. "I have someone that loves me" to which Hook responded with maybe she lost someone she loved in the other life too vs she lost someone who loved her. It's subtle but there's a world of difference there. Of course I think that great line distinction was lost somewhat because it really wasn't true.

Or maybe since we didn't get 10 million closeup shots of her sobbing face like you know who, it was hard to buy the love story.

As for the whole Neal/Emma thing I think the writers were writing crap on the go with no plan or something. Or maybe there were different opinions. I do recall the interview where JMo was basically like we're never ever getting back together and then a few episodes later that dumb I love you happened. But then there was that plot where she knew Tamara was lying right away and Snow and Neal dismissed it as jealousy. But according to the writers her lie detector only works if she's not emotionally involved. So doesn't that prove she has no emotional ties to Neal?

Or maybe the writers don't care about continuity. Yeah I bet that's it.

[Camera One]

I bet people would have found it annoying that she would've had 3 guys in love with her at that point.

 

I don't think having 3 guys in love with you in 29 years is too much, especially when Neal and Hook/Walsh were so far apart.  Though I understand what you mean since she has had way more potential love interests screen-tested against her than anyone else on this show, if Graham, Jefferson and August were all included.

[Shanna Marie]

I don't think having 3 guys in love with you in 29 years is too much, especially when Neal and Hook/Walsh were so far apart.

It's not so much the 3 in 29 years as potentially three all at the same time, since I don't think Neal had totally given up until he knew he was dying and told her to move on. A triangle is bad enough, but throw in Walsh if he were a real contender and not the Wizard/flying monkey, and this isn't too long after Jefferson was doing his intense personal space violation thing, and we're getting into "magical hoo-ha no man can resist" territory. Sometimes, it's not such a bad thing that the writers aren't as enamored of Emma as they are of certain other characters because on paper she has all the makings of the worst Mary Sue ever. Just imagine if they loved her like they love Regina. She's the fairytale princess Savior whose heart can't be ripped out and who can break curses with a kiss, and she was born with the most powerful light magic ever. She's the daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming, and she was able to turn Captain Hook from a villain into a hero just by existing and being her awesome self. She's also got a woobie-rific backstory. If the writers even noticed her, it would be way too easy to make her insufferable.

 

I was about to say that I'm amazed more men haven't been crazy about Regina, but then there was Daniel and Leopold (not sure he was ever into her or if it was just about being a mother to Snow), then Sidney/the genie who was so crazy about her that he killed for her and wished himself into her mirror so he'd never be away from her, and now Robin. I don't think Graham counts, but then the writers seem to think that was consensual, so I don't know.

[Jean]

Yeah Shanna that was what I meant.

And I totally agree that on paper, if someone didnt'watch the show, she'd be the ultimate super special snowflake. But it's like they go out of their way to make sure she isn't. That's fine with me, like I said cause then I can and do like her. Sometimes.

If you get right down to it, she really isn't all that special. Her "savior" status was because Rumple made her a loop hole. She didn't even do anything to break the curse. That was all annoying Henry. Her being "special" is just really a symbol of how special Snow and Charming's true love is. Nothing to do with her. Her heart can't be ripped out? Well Henry's can't either by spell and anyone else that wants to do that spell. Woegina's heart can be ripped out but she can't be controlled. Oh and she can give TLK without a heart! Snow and Charming can live with only half a heart. That's a whole lot more impressive than heart can't be ripped. (Aside, I think the whole heart can't be ripped out thing is setting up Hook and Emma because Hook's lover died by heart ripping, not to set up how special Emma is). She has light magic? Whoop de doo. So does Woegina and at least Woegina didn't lose hers. Her woobie tragic backstory? Well so does everyone else and it's only given attention like twice a season, usually in the premiere and the finale.

As for Jefferson was he really a love interest? I mean yeah they were smoking hot together but they brought him back several times after Hat Trick and yet they never shared scenes again. And August? He never liked her. He just wanted her to cure him.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Jean

[FabulousTater]

If you get right down to it, she really isn't all that special. Her "savior" status was because Rumple made her a loop hole. She didn't even do anything to break the curse. That was all annoying Henry. Her being "special" is just really a symbol of how special Snow and Charming's true love is. Nothing to do with her. Her heart can't be ripped out? Well Henry's can't either by spell and anyone else that wants to do that spell. [...]

I think you're getting carried away here. Emma is special and can't have her heart taken because (AFAIK) she was born special with a magical "talent" (for lack of a better description). Because her parents combined DNA resulted in her "talents" doesn't make them special instead of her. No one thinks Mozart was a hack because he got it all from his parents DNA who are the real geniuses. And it also doesn't make Emma less special because others can't have their heart taken through benefit of a spell. That's like saying mathematical savants aren't special because anyone can do the same thing by using a calculator. They are special because of their inborn talent that allows them to do that without training or instruction (as was the case when Emma used her innate magic and kept Cora from taking her heart. Hell, Emma didn't even know she had magic when she stopped Cora so I'd say that's pretty damn special).

Edited July 25, 2014 by FabulousTater

[KingOfHearts]

 

As for Jefferson was he really a love interest? I mean yeah they were smoking hot together but they brought him back several times after Hat Trick and yet they never shared scenes again. And August? He never liked her. He just wanted her to cure him.

 

They were potential love interests that could have happened, but didn't. Jefferson and August could have been love interests later, but they weren't because the story and casting dictated otherwise. I'm pretty sure the writers wanted to "test the waters" on several different potential love interests to see which worked best for Emma. They chose Hook.

Edited July 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Jean]

I think you're over simplifying things here. Emma can't have her heart taken because (AFAIK) she was born special and with that "talent" (for lack of a better description). Because her parents combined DNA resulted in her "talents" doesn't make them special instead of her. No one thinks Mozart was a hack because he got it all from his parents DNA who are the real geniuses. And it also doesn't make Emma less special because others can't have their heart taken through benefit of a spell. That's like saying mathematical savants aren't special because anyone can do the same thing by using a calculator.

I think a better analogy would be beauty/looks. Talent isn't based on genetics. In which case, yes I do think beautiful people have their looks attributed to good genes often times, or at least got lucky. For practical matters if you take a natural beauty and a person who got really good plastic surgery and put them in front of a modeling agency, who wasn't into "natural", does it make a difference at the end of the day, if they were both equally beautiful? I'd say no.

As for Jefferson, if he goes into Emma's love interest column based on potential, I think you'd have to put him into Woegina's column too. They got way more material. Unless the potential was based on writers' stated intent. Also, before Skin Deep, Mr. Gold could've been hooked up with Emma too. They had loads of story potential.

[FabulousTater]

I think a better analogy would be beauty/looks.

I don't think so. Beauty is a subjective measurement placed on us by society. It is arbitrary and varies from culture to culture, century to century. It has nothing to do with the person. It's a subjective societal judgement. A person deemed a beauty in one culture may be deemed ugly in another. Emma has an innate magical ability (that even she was unaware of) and she used it to protect herself. That's a fact not a societal judgement. There's nothing subjective about the fact that Emma was born with magical talent. She has it. It makes her special. It's a gift she was born with. End of story. Comparing her innate magical abilities with the arbitrary notion of beauty is comparing apples and elephants.

Edited July 25, 2014 by FabulousTater

[KAOS Agent]

I'd say it's more to the point that the writers have seemingly gone out of their way to make Emma less special so that others can become the super awesome saviour. I find this really aggravating because it demeans the original premise of the show and as seen in certain threads, a subset of viewers consider her worthless. However, I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised that several men were attracted to Emma. She's gorgeous. Jefferson and August weren't even remotely in love with her, but she's hot and single so expressing an interest isn't outside the realm of belief. One could ask why Regina doesn't get all the men since she is gorgeous as well, but everyone knows Emma isn't going to reach into your chest, pull out your heart and crush it if she gets pissed at you, so yeah, I'd pick Emma too.

[Camera One]

As for Jefferson, if he goes into Emma's love interest column based on potential, I think you'd have to put him into Woegina's column too. They got way more material. Unless the potential was based on writers' stated intent.

I can see why many speculated that Jefferson could have been a love interest for Emma, mainly since they had an entire episode (a pretty tense episode) together, and there was talk that Jefferson might appear more in Season 2.   Plus Jefferson hated Regina's guts from basically the biggest betrayal ever, so it was highly unlikely they would have paired Jefferson and Regina together as love interests in Storybrooke.

 

They also played around with the idea of Emma and August, and they even went on a date.  Yes, we know now what he was up to with Emma, but it was a potential love interest if the writers had chosen to do that, as KingofHearts said.

[Jean]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree FabulousTater.

For what it's worth I do think the writers see it your way and here's where I think they did set up her character for failure. Woegina was the natural underdog, not Emma. Like we said on paper she's the ultimate Mary Sue. People tend to root for the underdog and hate Mary Sues and if they had left well enough alone, Emma would be the most hated character and majority would root for Woegina. And maybe this is a generalization but I tend to think viewers dislike special snowflakes who waste their talents as opposed to the non special people but works hard for everything they've gotten.

Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your view the writers have the special talent of not being able to show what they say they've shown or want to show. Aka delusional.

How I think the writers intended for Woegina vs Emma to come out? How Woegina sees it? Which you know Woegina's POV is the writers' POV. Emma gets everything handed to her. She's a special snowflake. Meanwhile Woegina has to work at everything. And worse of all? Emma doesn't even appreciate her specialness. She's downright ungrateful and a waste of space. She gets everything handed to her on a silver platter and rejects it. Woegina works hard at everything and gets nothing.

1. Emma abandoned Henry and he loved her on sight. He thought of her as mom right away, forgave her for abandoning him, all the while Emma spent her time keeping him at arms length. Woegina meanwhile raised him, loved him and gave him her everything and all she got in return was rejection. She had to earn his love. And then she was generous enough to give Emma memories of raising Henry. So Emma ended up losing nothing for abandoning Henry while the real person who raised Henry had to give him up for his own good.

2. Emma naturally has magic. She doesn't want it. She doesn't care for it and gave it away when her family was depending on her. And for what? A guy she tolerates but hey it's ok, losing that special magic of hers means she can leave everyone and go back to NYC. Meanwhile Woegina was tortured by Rumple to learn magic. She paid a hefty price to learn it while special Emma got it for nothing but being special. She even said said as much when she was teaching Emma. But did that chick listen? No siree. So Woegina with her earned her white magic and had to save everyone cause Emma was just selfish. Her heart couldn't be ripped out, she was special and should have taken on Zelena. Charming sacrificed his life for heaven sakes just so the natural special light magic can defeat Zels. Instead poor Woegina had her heart stolen and still, she was the one that shouldered the responsibilty.

3. Rumple gifted Emma with savior status cause he knew how special she was. Woegina got manipulated into the thankless job of curse caster by Rumple. But for awhile she comforted herself with Rumple's letter to Cora, about her talents. But then it turned out Rumple wasn't even talking about her but Zelena.

3. Emma got Snow White and Charming as parents and loved her on sight. Hell Snow loved her before she knew that was her kid. And the ungrateful brat kept rejecting Snowing. She didn't appreciate what she had until she almost lost it, like Henry. But hey things always turn out well for Emma even when she scews up. She still has her loving parents waiting to worship her. She feels like an orphan even though she has loving parents. Woegina? She was just so desperate for Cora to love her. That's all she ever wanted even though Cora abused her, She did everything to get Cora to love her but never got it. And then that one special moment with Mommy? Effing evil Snow killed her.

4. Everyone loves Emma. Graham, Neal, August, Hook, Snow, Charming, town etc. Woegina has no one. She and Graham had awesome consensual sex and Graham just wanted to use her body. Oh wait, her and Graham bonded deeply over Monoply. All those times they were in bed and she let that damn hunter build mansions on Park Ave? Nothing in return. Emma rolled into town, Graham took one look at her, fell in love and betrayed her. All she wants is one person to love her damn it. But no one does cause they're too busy drooling over Emma and Snow. She only has Henry but only after she earned his love by suffering immensely for him.

5. Emma doesn't give a crap about Storybrook. But yet everyone loves her. They even threw a bash for her. Woegina cooked a freaking lasagna for their ungrateful asses and they spit in her face. She saved Snow and Emma and they couldn't even invite her to dinner. Bitches!

6. Emma has her parents, brother, Henry, and Hook. She lost nothing. Ok maybe she lost Neal, the lover not the brother. But she got Hook as a better replacement within 2 days. Woegina has lost everything even Henry for awhile. The one time she thought she could have true love like everyone else, after losing hers and pining for him for 60 years? Freaking Emma ruins it again with her "never think about consequences" self.

That's essentially the story they laid out. For me personally, trying to make Woegina the biggest victim ever backfired. And I think they did diminish Emma's "special" status but I don't think that was their intention. They wanted to make Regina a hero, but their words for her is always "earned." Emma got savior status beacuse she's special. Woegina got to be a "savior" because she earned it.

[KingOfHearts]

Wow, Jean. I didn't realize how crappy Regina's story was until I read your post. For real. You make some really good points. I don't think Woegina exists because of Regina's attitude, but because of the way she's written and the way other characters are written in conjunction with her. It's pretty sad, really. Regina is not a saint, but she really gets some of the worst writing on the show. It's not the story itself that's the problem, but how the characters react to it and how it's treated superficially. It's all in the perspective.

 

I can see why the Evil Regals despise Emma so much. She's written as an ungrateful golden child. Meanwhile, poor Regina never seems to catch a break. Emma and Regina are two big reasons why I watch Once, so seeing them bent to fit the wild whims of the almighty plot just rubs me the wrong way.

Edited July 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[regularlyleaded]

Which you know Woegina's POV is the writers' POV. Emma gets everything handed to her. She's a special snowflake. Meanwhile Woegina has to work at everything. And worse of all? Emma doesn't even appreciate her specialness. She's downright ungrateful and a waste of space. She gets everything handed to her on a silver platter and rejects it. Woegina works hard at everything and gets nothing.

 

1. Emma abandoned Henry and he loved her on sight. He thought of her as mom right away, forgave her for abandoning him, all the while Emma spent her time keeping him at arms length. Woegina meanwhile raised him, loved him and gave him her everything and all she got in return was rejection. She had to earn his love. And then she was generous enough to give Emma memories of raising Henry. So Emma ended up losing nothing for abandoning Henry while the real person who raised Henry had to give him up for his own good.

 

[...]

Maybe it's because I've been away from the boards for a while and it's late here, but I'm legitimately confused by this post. Are you saying that your enumerated list of items 1- 6 are how the show comes across because of the writers obsession with Regina, or are you saying that that is how uber-Regina fans see the show? (because I don't think the show can control how fanatics perceive anything....'cause you know....they're fanatics). 

 

FWIW, I agree that the writing skews heavily towards Regina's POV and that can contribute to an unfavorable perception of Emma, but I don't think it's too such a degree that the writing has painted a picture that Emma has lived an unscathed and blessed life and that she should bend low upon her knees to lay kisses upon Regina's feet. At least it's not skewed to the degree that you've stated (yet). I would comment on each item you've listed, but again, I'm not sure I understand what point you're trying to make. Honestly, I really am just sitting here thinking "Whuh?" Could you clarify please? (seriously, I'm not snarking. I'm legit confused).

Edited July 25, 2014 by regularlyleaded

[stealinghome]

You make some really good points. I don't think Woegina exists because of Regina's attitude, but because of the way she's written and the way other characters are written in conjunction with her. It's pretty sad, really. Regina is not a saint, but she really gets some of the worst writing on the show.

The sad part is, it's like this because Regina is actually the writers' favorite character! And yet somehow, they're so oblivious that they've saddled their favorite with some of the worst writing on the show (at this point, I think only Snow also approaches that level of bad writing)--and they think they're writing her some awesome story.

 

Sometimes I'm actually glad that my favorite character is the regular the writers have the least amount of interest in (Charming). It means he doesn't get a lot of focus, but it also means that the writers don't totally ruin him. So Josh Dallas can just carry on carrying on being an adorable Daddy Charming with no interference.

[Jean]

Regularlyleaded, I genuinely think that's how the writers see it post S1. Ok except for some injected sarcasm here and there. But mainly I do think they see Emma as the unearned special one while Woegina can do whatever Emma can do but better and she earned and worked hard for it. Some of it is shown directly through dialog and some is through Adam/Eddy's interviews and podcasts. And I don't think it's because they hate Emma but because they love Woegina so much they have tunnel vision. Emma is just her foil. They don't realize what they're doing to other characters because all they see is Woegina. I don't think they see her as an ungrateful bitch. I think they see her as willfully blind and not accepting the fact that she is very much blessed compared to the real victims of the show. She's a false victim is how I think they see her.

They give Emma supposedly a sob story or put her in a position to be right and then they turn around and undermine it every step of the way. Take the I want to go back to NYC business. Ok fair enough right? Except her whole premise based on safety and no craziness is blatantly false with the monkey business. They could have kept it a legitimate grey area by really giving her that peaceful life. Or give her another reason to return to NYC except the one that is clealy stupid. All the scenarios/stories they give her, she has reasonable justifications for her choice/feelings but they only present the ones that make her wrong. Or stupid or both.

Emmma's entire 3 season character arc? That she is blessed but never appeciated it until it's gone or almost gone. Henry, her parents, Neal, home, Storybrook etc. That's what happens every single season/mid finale or whatever random moment they decide to give her something emotional to do. She admits she was wrong and comes to appreciate so and so more because she almost lost them. And she never realized how much they love her or she loves them until that moment. Hook is the exception to this when it's the one time it could've somewhat excused her boneheaded move. Instead they had her grinning like a fool and spew that crap about magic won't matter in NYC. All this of course only lasts an episode before she's back to being emo again.

You know what's Woegina's arc come every finale? Her big heroic self-sacrificing moment that she's worked so hard for. Yeah they reset her too but they blame all her resets on someone else victimizing her. She is justified in her anger according to them.

The lasagna thing and not inviting her to dinner sentiment is straight from their mouths. They genuinely think the town was wrong for not embracing Woegina. They equated Emma lying about who's the daddy to all of Woegina's lies. I believe their exact words were if Emma wants to be Henry's mom she has to be held to the same standards as Woegina. All lies aren't created equally, give me a break.

Woegina constantly gets positive reinforcement onscreen of how awesome and loving she is from nearly everyone. All anyone ever says to Emma is, you are the special snowflake, why can't you see and accept it? Well maybe Hook waxes poetic about her in addition to that.

And while she's the "savior" with some pretty powerful magic she never gets to do anything substantial with it does she? Unless it's with Woegina. Breaking the curse? The credit for that one I think has to be given to Henry. Who saved Henry in Neverland? Woegina because she alone got the heart back and returned it to him while Emma was tied up. Ok so she got to save Hook and Neal with that goofy coconut. That's real savior-y stuff right there. Forget Zelena. She did beat up Hook and stunned Cora in S2 mid finale. But she would've been dead doing the impression of the Ring had Woegina not sucked the killing stuff out of the well. Diamond of doom? Woegina's partner and Emma wanted to take the "easy" way out. She needed a smackdown from Snow and Henry first.

[Serena]

I don't think she'll ever come out and say, point blank, "Ya, SwanFire was never going to happen even if Nealfire had lived.

She did say just that last month at the Montecarlo Film Festival. It's why Swanfire shippers freaked out on her and she had to post an explanation/apology on Facebook.

Re: Emma's relationship with Walsh, I think it showed that, however much Neal damaged her, what really broke Emma was having to give Henry up. In her new life with memories of raising Henry, even though Neal's betrayal was the same, she was able to have a relationship.

[myril]

I am tempted to compare the relation of Regina and Emma with the two daughters in Mother Hulda, a biological daughter and a stepdaughter, the latter ending up covered with cold and the other covered with pitch. Depending on who you ask you might hear a quite different story for each, where either the gold one deserved what she got and earned it through work, or one where she was favored without good reason and got it easy while the other was confronted with exorbitant tasks and punished with bad luck. Well, the Grimm Brothers told one version, where the stepdaughter got the better end, because she is described as helpful and kind and thus earning the gold, while the other one is greedy but spoiled, lazy and whiny, and so not earning anything better than pitch. But who can tell if the Grimm Brothers' story is the "true" story?

 

The show takes it in a way a step further, making Emma (and Snow) of noble birth and Regina of not so noble birth. At least Cora was a poor peasant before she married Henry sr, or a Miller's daughter, although  millers had a better social status than peasants and were not poor because they usually had quite a monopoly in their village/region back in the days, but anyway. And Emma's is not born noble, her father was a sheppard, and is a bit of a fraud. And still there is a sens of unfair starting point and issues of social class even. Emma had all chances at birth (in theory) and would have become effortlessly queen, while Regina had to fight to even have a chance, so she is the underdog.. That is the feeling some have, isn't it.

 

I get why some might see a Mary Sue in Emma on paper, and particular agree the innate magic is a story telling problem (and a huge one). But if we call Emma a Mary Sue than we should call Regina as rightfully a sympathetic jerk Sue. The problem with the characters is pretty much the same, they have huge story telling potential, and keep even having that, but what we get to see on screen are at best teases and not a well developed story and character exploration, it's of the forgettable kind of fan fiction. But we life in the decade of bad fan fiction making millions (getting the feeling most of the summer movies were just that, bad fan fiction, not to mention one upcoming movie for which the trailer just got out), so Once is more the normal and not an exception with that.

 

Love can make blind, is a saying. So if Regina is the character the showrunners love most, it might explain, why they do her character some of the worst disservice, why some of the worst writing is coming with this character. Lack of distance. Just look at this nonsense of a romance between Regina and Robin, now peppered with love triangle obstacles. If they would question what the pixie dust foretold it could be an interesting story: Regina fooling herself with true love while Robin was a bit of rogue before meeting Marian (and it turns out the brain and person behind the whole Robin Hood myth was Marian) who just has a thing for smart, courageous women (not saying, Regina is that, but Robin thinks so). (And I so can't help it to see some of the character Maguire played in Scott&Bailey, a good guy but a simpleton, who so was no match to the lead character Bailey; and she cheated on him and ditched him, not his fault, but characterwise it was foreseeable).

 

As much as I miss a better exploration of the mother-daughter relationship of Snow and Emma, and think they should show a bit more of Emma's story for better understanding, at least they treat Emma better with a more decent development of the relationship with Hook. The Neal story though was a big mess.

[Dani-Ellie]

I get why some might see a Mary Sue in Emma on paper, and particular agree the innate magic is a story telling problem (and a huge one). But if we call Emma a Mary Sue than we should call Regina as rightfully a sympathetic jerk Sue.

 

Right. I also think the genre this particular show is in needs to be taken into consideration as well. This isn't some teen high school movie where a beautiful girl moves into town and everyone loves her and all the guys fall over each other racing for her affections. This is a fairy tale. A modern-day fairy tale, but it's still a fairy tale, and Emma is a modern fairy-tale princess. Fairy-tale princesses are special. Fairy-tale princesses do come up from nothing and do have princes fawning all over them. Snow White and Sleeping Beauty never even met their Prince Charmings before these men were braving wilds and dragons and other fairy tale dangers to save them, for crying out loud. Cinderella shared one dance with her prince and he roamed his entire kingdom looking for her again. Emma lived an awful, lonely, loveless life and is just now realizing how special she is. And maybe some see that as over the top, but for me, knowing she'd likely never been told she was special before Henry showed up at her door, all I can think is, "Finally."

 

If anything, I think 3B Regina was Mary Sue territory. She's a fairy-tale villain, for crying out loud, (which, sorry, Adam and Eddy but Regina's a villain ... I miss the point in time where the show actually remembered this) and she did everything and got everything (True Love's Kiss and light magic all without a heart will never not go up my ass sideways) and every other character was shoved aside in service of Regina. If the story were more balanced, maybe I would feel less like this, but here we are.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[FurryFury]

But we live in the decade of bad fan fiction making millions (getting the feeling most of the summer movies were just that, bad fan fiction, not to mention one upcoming movie for which the trailer just got out), so Once is more the normal and not an exception with that.

 

This, so much! It really bothers me that lately, the vast majority of shows that aren't intentionally bleak and overly serious (i.e. the cable stuff) are written about as well as the best fanfiction. Sometimes a bit worse. There's your usual fan pandering and an extreme focus on shipping and and incessant redeeming of villains left and right and never letting a story develop, always stalling and bringing back elements someone liked even if it doesn't make much sense. Once is a good example of most of these points.

 

Re: the Mary Sue discussion, I think many people miss that the one thing that makes a character Mary Sue is how other characters in the story react to them. I've seen characters who, on paper, have all your classic qualities, like being attractive, having special powers/heritage, love interests, but still had enough of a hard time getting to their goals that they didn't feel like Mary Sues. As long as people react to Emma realistically, she's in no danger, powers or no powers.

Edited July 25, 2014 by FurryFury

[Jean]

Oh yeah this show is definitely Woegina fanfiction. I've been saying that since S2 and the downfall of the show. She's the real Mary Sue. Emma's not a Mary Sue in reality, if I didn't make that clear. And it's all because the majority of the time they've made her be wrong, dumb, incompetent and everyone calls her out on her shit. In a bubble I wouldn't typically like a character like her. But because they've sabotaged her character and stack the deck against her, I like her on principle. She's the real underdog and I'll root for her cause the poor put upon whiny St. Victim Woegina whom everyone fights to kiss her ass is so much worse. But I'll continue that in Emma's thread I think.

 

As for why Jen prefers Hook and not Neal? Isn't it obvious? I'm pretty sure Jen's explained it a bunch of times. Hook makes Emma feel good. He's the only one that waxes poetic about her. Yes he does call her out on her bs but the way he does it is makes it come off as wanting better for her.  That's how Jen sees it by her own words. Contrast Hook's talks with her when he's challenging her to when Snow calls Emma out on her bs. Snow is down right dismissive. Henry calls her out on her bs and he's the self-righteous one. She's always wrong and needs to be put on the straight and righteous path through a lecture from Snow and Henry. I don't think it's purely acting choices either although that might contribute. On the show Hook and Emma are equals. Emma is always in the wrong against Snow and Henry.

 

It's also equally obvious she and the writers' have some very different opinions on Neal and Emma. Jen sees it as Neal hurting and betraying Emma so bad, she'll never get over it. Adam and Eddy claimed way back in S2 that Neal was a hero even then. They said he made the ultimate self-sacrifice of his own happiness just to get Emma home. That was said in S2. And if some people didn't buy that? Well they'll repeat the story and emphasize it even more so the dumb audience can finally get it through their thick heads and S3 we got Neal sacrificing himself to send a letter to Hook to bring her home. Whaddya know. Neal even taught her what home meant for gawd sakes. I think they called Neal a hero in S3 more often than Woegina. The problem is Jen's opinions are based on stuff that was shown but the dialog doesn't support that. The dialog supports Neal. They never had Emma bring up the fact that he never came to look for her again when that was such a strong point for Jen. In contrast all the dialog Emma got was that she spent so long being mad that she lost Neal. That she's an emotional coward who's always running. That was presented as the drama and angst for Neal and Emma.

 

That's always the problem with the writers. They claim they told a story a certain way when it really isn't true. They are the ultimate example of all talk no action. The "talk" and "action" almost always contradict each other. Bizarre.

[Rumsy4]

I agree. The narrative is most often stacked against Emma. I feel that Adam and Eddy secretly hate her now, as they have deconstructed almost everything that was special about her, and given it to someone else. The real heroine of the Show is Woegina, and this is the story of her journey to a Happy Ending (interview I linked a few pages ago).

Emma is still one of the main reasons I watch ONCE, so it's been really frustrating that, with the exception of the mid-season premiere and finale, she was almost entirely benched in 3B, in terms of meaningful screen-time.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Dani-Ellie]

That's always the problem with the writers. They claim they told a story a certain way when it really isn't true. They are the ultimate example of all talk no action. The "talk" and "action" almost always contradict each other. Bizarre.

 

I've noticed that there's an awful lot of this with this show, more than I can recall for any other show I've watched. Maybe it's just because of this day and age and TV writers being so accessible on social media, but in all my years of TV watching, I've never come across a show where so many of the big story problems have to do with how the story plays out onscreen versus how the writers intended the story to play out. There is a very big disconnect between what actually happens versus the intention, and I don't know what the fix for that is other than Adam and Eddy actually taking the constructive criticism and changing the way they plan the story.

 

Let's talk about Emma and Neal for a second, because Jean brings up good points.

 

Adam and Eddy claimed way back in S2 that Neal was a hero even then. They said he made the ultimate self-sacrifice of his own happiness just to get Emma home. That was said in S2.

 

That may have been their intention but that is not at all how it came across to me, and from what I can remember from Twitter and whatnot, that is not at all how it came across to a good many people. What we saw was Neal and August set Emma up to go to jail and when Emma confronted Neal about it in "Manhattan," all he said was that he did it to get her home. No mention of how leaving her in jail and then never speaking to her again was supposed to get her home. No mention of how she was supposed to find her way home with no one to guide her. Maybe Neal trusted August to guide her, but even still, why would he trust her life to some dude he just met who'd pretty much admitted he was a sucky guardian angel?

 

How the hell is that heroic? Wouldn't it have been more heroic to not send her to jail at all and to stick by her and guide her and make sure she found her way home?

 

When they had countless people tweeting them and asking them to clarify Neal's position, that should have been an indication to them that something was wrong with the narrative. When a couple people "misread" something or need an explanation, that's the people. When a whole bunch of people "misread" something or need an explanation, that's a fault of the text.

 

They never had Emma bring up the fact that he never came to look for her again when that was such a strong point for Jen. In contrast all the dialog Emma got was that she spent so long being mad that she lost Neal. That she's an emotional coward who's always running. That was presented as the drama and angst for Neal and Emma.

 

This actually made me angry. Considering that Emma spent a third of her life emotionally reeling from Neal's betrayal, it's perfectly all right for Emma to not want to get back together with Neal. It's perfectly all right for her to give him shit because the way he treated her was not okay. The drama and angst for Neal/Emma should have been Neal attempting to make it up to Emma, not Emma being closed off, especially since Neal was a good chunk of the reason she was so closed off in the first place. Yeah, she runs, but Neal's the one who freakin' taught her to run, both physically and emotionally. He was the one who told her she had to run away to find somewhere she missed and he was the one who screwed her over so badly that she thought it was easier to just never take a chance on anyone else again.

And this guy is supposed to be a hero? Pull the other one, writers.

[Curio]

Considering that Emma spent a third of her life emotionally reeling from Neal's betrayal, it's perfectly all right for Emma to not want to get back together with Neal.

 

I remember watching Season 2 the first time around and being so proud of Emma for basically saying "Yeah, whatever, Neal is back in my life and he has a fiancé and it's kind of awkward I guess, but I don't really care because I'm over it. He screwed me over. Exes are exes for a reason." It's rare to find female characters on TV who actually take that healthy approach with their past relationships and actually meaning it. I wouldn’t have even minded her being cordial with Neal in the future and possibly developing a close platonic friendship after maybe a season or two of rebuilding that trust.

 

Sadly, that awesome trait of hers was taken away when the totally random "I love you" confession happened when Neal was falling through the portal. Yes, Emma tends to not open up until an extreme situation shows up - I get that. But I still call bullshit. Of all the crazy plots and writing issues this show has had, that moment tops my crazy list for #1 Most Convoluted Moment that literally made me say “WTF” out loud. And that's a hard list to get on, mind you. (The crazy list includes: Graham’s death never being properly acknowledged by anyone in Storybrooke, Tamara electrocuting the “dragon,” August getting turned back into a little boy, the Blue Fairy dying but not really dying, Emma dating a flying monkey, and Regina using white magic without her heart.)

Edited July 25, 2014 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

 

Sadly, that awesome trait of hers was taken away when the totally random "I love you" confession happened when Neal was falling through the portal. 

 

It may not have been true, per se. A lot of people say things they don't actually mean in a near-death situation. In that kind of circumstance, it would be difficult to find what to say. That's just my optimist headcanon, though!

Edited July 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

Sadly, that awesome trait of hers was taken away when the totally random "I love you" confession happened when Neal was falling through the portal.

I remember staring at the TV, confused, then watching the scene, confused, and then getting mad.  There might've been some loud,  random "What!?"'s, as well.

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, for my own personal mental health, my head cannon is that she said it in the heat of the moment. With him possibly getting sucked into a portal, all the emotions and old baggage, it just came out. Any other point in time? During a non near death experience? She might forgive him, but she certainly doesn't love him. That's my story and I'm sticking to it damn it!

[MaiLuna]

Yeah, he was dying and of course she still had feelings for him, but I don't know if she was still in love with him. Since when he came back, she didn't even show up to his lunch date and when she had to say goodbye to him in Going Home there wasn't any romance there at all. The same when he died the second time. I don't know why she said I love you in 2.21 but not in 3.15. Maybe the fake memories and missing year really changed her.

 

As much the ILY bothered me in S2, I think they should've explained better why those feelings changed in S3 and she didn't give him a chance (though I wouldn't have liked that, it'd have made sense). I know she loved him but she couldn't trust him with her heart again, but she also said she was upset about all the time they've missed. I don't know, Emma and Neal are super confusing to me. She even was going to show up to the date after all before Blue was killed, but then they were never referenced again as a romantic possibility.

 

At least I bought Emma's ILY more than I bought Neal's "I love you too" since he was engaged to someone else and was a jerk to Emma since Manhattan when he's the one who broke her heart.

Edited July 25, 2014 by MaiLuna

[Dani-Ellie]

I could have bought the "I love you" if they hadn't followed it up with the "I need you." Because no, Emma, sweetheart, you don't.

I mean, look, I think part of Emma is always going to love Neal. He's the father of her child, and that love may evolve into a different kind of love but I don't think it ever goes away completely. When my parents split up, my mom told me she would always love my dad, because he gave her me and my siblings, but she wasn't in love with him anymore. I kind of saw Emma and Neal the same way. They're bound together because they have Henry and they were in love at the time, but Neal sent her to jail and time passed and understandably, they were no longer in love.

The problem is the show didn't make the distinction between "love" and "in love" and allowed Emma to still carry a torch for this guy, which, in my opinion, was grody. Because regardless of what the writers think, I don't see any earthly reason why Emma would still be in love with the guy she spent 11 years believing used her as a patsy.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Camera One]

Sadly, that awesome trait of hers was taken away when the totally random "I love you" confession happened when Neal was falling through the portal.

 

Emma has always bottled up her feelings inside of her, and Neal was her first love and she was clearly very devastated by it and never got past it enough to have a healthy relationship thereafter, and she even went to Tallahassee herself following prison.  I don't think it was too difficult to believe that she would say "I love you" as he fell to his death since she never had closure and some of the residual feelings could conceivably have been buried deep inside. As usual, it's the lack of build-up and the lack of follow-through which was a problem for me.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Camera One

[Curio]

As usual, it's the lack of build-up and the lack of follow-through which was a problem for me.

That's kind of a growing trend with several of the relationships on this show, isn't it?

 

(Slightly off topic, but I'm kind of glad there isn't a thread dedicated to just the writing on this show... it would probably get pretty ugly in there.)

Edited July 25, 2014 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

 

(Slightly off topic, but I'm kind of glad there isn't a thread dedicated to just the writing on this show... it would probably get pretty ugly in there.)

All-Seasons usually fits that bill, haha.

 

It was possible for Emma to love Neal as Henry's dad and love Hook romantically at the same time, but I don't understand why Emma didn't set some serious boundaries with Neal. It was full-on love triangle in 3A, which I really don't get. Was it totally out of Emma's mind to just keep a friendship with Neal? If she felt so uncomfortable around him, she could have just told him she didn't want to get involved romantically. I'm a guy, so pardon me if I'm wrong about Emma.

 

Neal went from avoiding Emma like the plague and being scared to be around her to vying and getting into petty fights with Hook over her affection. It's almost like OQ, in that they threw in romantic tension for the sake of entertainment value.

 

On this show it seems relationships are only romantic, adversarial and familial, with nothing else in between. I really wish there were more platonic, strong friendships on the show. If you're single, you get shoved off to Offscreenville (*cough* Red *cough*). The message the show is sending is that you either have to be related by blood or romantically involved with someone to really matter.

Edited July 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

It was possible for Emma to love Neal as Henry's dad and love Hook romantically at the same time, but I don't understand why Emma didn't set some serious boundaries with Neal. It was full-on love triangle in 3A, which I really don't get. Was it totally out of Emma's mind to just keep a friendship with Neal? If she felt so uncomfortable around him, she could have just told him she didn't want to get involved romantically. I'm a guy, so pardon me if I'm wrong about Emma. 

Maybe she never actually did the emotional work of figuring out what she felt?  Emma's got lots of strengths, but figuring out her own feelings is probably her anti-power. 

 

In a high-stress situation, where she's focused on something that ties her and Neal together, I can see her confusing her leftover feelings for the Neal she had loved and Neal as Henry's father, and not really knowing what to tell him, because she didn't know.   Add in worry about Henry, nonplatonic feelings about Hook, and her parents drama--in Neverland, on a rescue mission, where she had every excuse and reason to not focus on that part of her life? 

[KAOS Agent]

 

Maybe she never actually did the emotional work of figuring out what she felt?  Emma's got lots of strengths, but figuring out her own feelings is probably her anti-power.

 

Emma's emotional immaturity is basically why I can see her being really confused about her feelings for Neal. It's not about not doing the emotional work to figure it out (though if it's as painful as she says, I can see why she'd avoid even considering examining it all), it's that she has little to no understanding about love in general. She doesn't know that it's okay to feel however she wants to feel. I think while she's not going to come right out and ask others for advice, she takes cues from people she trusts. So she's got Snow smiling and telling her she should go for it with Neal to get her happy ending and David telling her to sit down and enjoy the moments and maybe she's starting to think she's wrong to have these negative feelings about Neal. Given that it's Emma, she's thinking she's in the wrong and maybe these other people who have way more experience with love know better than her. Henry wants her back with his dad, so he's no help. And Hook, who I think is the one person who could set her straight on things, is compromised because he's in love with her himself.

[YaddaYadda]

I think Emma is mostly someone who needs to figure things out on her own as opposed to having someone or other telling her what to do.  The whole I love you before Neal fell through the portal seemed like something that was done under duress and that she might have regretted later.  She was angry with him over a lot of things, plus not believing her about Tamara, he gets shot, he's falling, she tells him she loves him.  I think for her it's a natural reaction, it's like when she called David and Mary Margaret "mom and dad" when she thought Storybrooke was about to blow up and they were all going to die.  And I can accept her explanation in the Echo Caves about how she always will love him but she was relieved he died so that she didn't have to deal with the BS he put her through because she wasn't over it yet.

 

That just made it even more evident that she still wasn't over the betrayal, the abandonment and so on. 

 

She tells Neal that, then they're at trying to capture the shadow (can't recall the name of the place) and she's yelling for Hook when both he and Neal get trapped by the shadows, and then she channels her emotions to light the candle. 

 

I was an unbiased, non spoiled, non shippy, non board person when that played out and I thought she did that to save Hook more than it was to save Neal.

[stealinghome]

Henry wants her back with his dad, so he's no help.

Wait, when did Henry say that he wanted Emma and Neal to get back together? I don't remember that at all!

[Rumsy4]

Wait, when did Henry say that he wanted Emma and Neal to get back together? I don't remember that at all!

In S2, while the Tamara-thing was going on. Emma told Henry it was never going to happen.

[MaiLuna]

 

She tells Neal that, then they're at trying to capture the shadow (can't recall the name of the place) and she's yelling for Hook when both he and Neal get trapped by the shadows, and then she channels her emotions to light the candle.

 

I was an unbiased, non spoiled, non shippy, non board person when that played out and I thought she did that to save Hook more than it was to save Neal.

I thought so too, especially right at the end of that scene when she looks at him after she's saved them. I don't think that was put in that scene for nothing. I think Emma realized something there.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDPLo79qnDo (last 10 seconds)

[stealinghome]

In S2, while the Tamara-thing was going on. Emma told Henry it was never going to happen.

Wow, I have literally no memory of that. That goes to show you just how much of S2 I have blocked out!

[wingster55]

I was an unbiased, non spoiled, non shippy, non board person when that played out and I thought she did that to save Hook more than it was to save Neal.

 

I think's that's reaching. I don't think her feelings for Hook were that strong to choose him over Henry's father. 

To be honest I still don't think she loves him..not sure when he fell for her either actually. 

[Souris]

I thought so too, especially right at the end of that scene when she looks at him after she's saved them. I don't think that was put in that scene for nothing. I think Emma realized something there.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDPLo79qnDo (last 10 seconds)

 

I'm a huge CS shipper, and at the end, I think she's just reacting to her magic manifesting itself there, not necessarily anything to do with Hook. Though I think her yelling out Hook's name instead of Neal's is significant.

[pezgirl7]

I don't think Emma was choosing Hook OVER Neal, I just think seeing him in peril and then being able to light the candle made her realize that she actually has feelings for him. Not anything close to love yet, but something. I think sometime right before the Echo cave is when Hook realized he loved Emma. When she almost drowned was probably the first spark of the idea that he might love her. Obviously he fell quick and hard since just the day before he was practically ready to let her die!

Someone on tumblr posted this quote in relation to CS, and I can see Hook thinking it.

“I didn’t fall in love with you. I walked into love with you, with my eyes wide open, choosing to take every step along the way. I do believe in fate and destiny, but I also believe we are only fated to do the things that we’d choose anyway. And I’d choose you; in a hundred lifetimes, in a hundred worlds, in any version of reality, I’d find you and I’d choose you”

—

The Chaos of Stars By Kiersten White

[YaddaYadda]

I think's that's reaching. I don't think her feelings for Hook were that strong to choose him over Henry's father. 

To be honest I still don't think she loves him..not sure when he fell for her either actually. 

 

I don't think she loved him, I don't think she loves him right now.  I think she cared about him though.  For me the deal breaker in that scene was when she called his name.  Between that and their last sort of conversation before Pan's curse before she was leaving with Henry, for me it was sort of a deal breaker, but these things are always open to interpretation anyway.

[retrograde]

It was full-on love triangle in 3A

It was a love triangle in so far as Hook and Neal both wanted her, but I don't think Emma was even thinking about her love life for at least the whole Neverland portion. And she pretty much tells Hook as much (and I think he was way out of line with his "you're going to have to choose" speech; Christ, man, you've only been not enemies for literally a few days, and she's a little preoccupied saving her son's life). Once they got back, I agree she was figuring out her feelings, but even then, for what, like two days (most of which she was busy dealing with the Henry/Pan stuff)?

 

The show didn't give us a whole lot to work with, but my interpretation of what I saw on screen was more familial feelings for Neal and romantic ones for Hook through most of the post-Neverland period. It was mostly little things, but the fact that she brought him up when David was trying to get her to have lunch with Neal, the difference in the goodbyes at the town line, her jealousy at seeing Hook with Tink, the meaningful look she gives him when Neal asks for time alone in the hospital. There wasn't really anything like that for Neal. Even that last scene in the woods before he carks it, it seemed more friendly than romantic. And once he was dead, I never got a "oh man, I really thought we could have made it work" vibe from her. She seemed more sad for Henry than anything.

[KingOfHearts]

 

It was a love triangle in so far as Hook and Neal both wanted her, but I don't think Emma was even thinking about her love life for at least the whole Neverland portion.

 

Well she did passionately kiss Hook. Even though it was supposedly a thank you for saving Charming, she found it legitimate enough to talk to her mom about it later when she didn't have to. When Neal came back to life though, she slammed on the brakes.

Edited July 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts