Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Mari]

What makes what they do with Rumple and Belle problematic to me is that they don't handle it much as a problematic relationship, let alone that plenty of people in the audience equal it with the fluffy Disney animated version.

 

I agree with this--a huge part of the reason Belle/Rumple makes me queasy is that the corruptive nature  of their relationship is never really acknowledged.   It is almost always treated in-show as though Belle is making Rumple a better person.  She's not; he's changing her.  Which would narratively be okay if the writers seemed to truly realize they were doing it, and occasionally highlighted that.  Watching a relationship that changes someone for the worst can be interesting and enlightening, too, as long as I don't feel like I'm being told over and over again "Look how shiny this is!  Isn't this relationship fabulous!"  and thinking about how this is a family show and tweener and pretweener girls and boys are watching this and thinking it's good because it's being presented that way.

 

There were two moments in 3B that made me wonder if they're going to start to address this issue a little. 

a)  Belle had her completely delusional "Rumple sacrificed himself to save the town and he's so very very shiny and good" comment shot down by Neal (If they'd had a few more of those, it'd've been harder to say good-bye to him.  They could even have a ghost Neal show up once in a while to give Belle reality checks.)

b)  the wedding.  It was small and private, and that would't've raised any flags for me.  But adding in that  it was in the woods and in the dark, with no one at all but her father and Jiminy?  Rumple's deceiving her was highlighted, and during the vows, the camera kept cutting away during the positive parts.

[Camera One]

I found Belle more interesting when they turned her into Lacey, and that sentence again made her more interesting as a character, made the relationship with Rumple more interesting to me.

 

For me, the problem with that "even the dark parts" line is that there was no character-based lead-up to it, nor was there a character development follow-through.  It was just "there".  Belle continued to be written the same way with complete trust in Rumple and very little acknowledgement of how he has hurt others.

 

I didn't really buy the Rumple/Belle relationship even in that "Skin Deep" episode.  I think it would have worked better if she just developed a friendship with Rumple... an actual genuine human interaction, since he didn't even have that.

 

They try to use Belle as a "check" on Rumple's behavior, and I'm not sure how many times they can do the whole flip-flop thing with Belle.  Sure, they haven't flipped as many times as Regina but after this time, I think it will have reached that point.

[Rumsy4]

She didn't even react when Hook told her what Rumple did to Milah.  That's when things for me started going south with her character in particular plus the dialogue they put in her mouth about Rumple having a true heart.  He might have once upon a time before the seer messed with him, he loved his son which gave him some of his humanity especially when he was the Dark One. 

 

Fully agree. Are we supposed to think that Belle believes Rumple regrets killing Milah? As a viewer, there is no proof that he regrets it in the least. Or does she think Rumple wouldn't murder her if she left him, either because she Rumple loves her more than he loved Milah, or because Belle's life is worth more? Is the audience supposed to think that Milah's murder was justified because she was a "bitch", and left her family, and that Rumple has changed because he wouldn't murder a "nicer" person? There are so many problematic aspects of the murder of Milah, and the way it has been addressed within the Show. 

 

I completely agree this is the problem with R/B. I thought Skin Deep was so good, and I liked the bittersweet ending of Rumple being too attached to his power to really let himself be with Belle or, if if you want to give him the benefit of the doubt, of choosing his Quest For Bae over Belle. I could see why Belle saw something good in him, as a man who did everything for his son, but got lost along the way.

 

I agree. I think part of the reason why Rumple did not want to be uncursed was that he was still looking for a way to find his son, and keeping his magic would be the best way to ensure it. He even chose his son over Power when sacrificing himself to kill Pan, and in letting Zelena take the dagger. However, he knows that Belle is a pushover the way Neal never was, and that's why he find it easy to manipulate her. 

[Mari]

I didn't really buy the Rumple/Belle relationship even in that "Skin Deep" episode.  I think it would have worked better if she just developed a friendship with Rumple... an actual genuine human interaction, since he didn't even have that.

So it's not just me?  Because I found the friendship almost worked, but that the couple themselves seems to have no chemistry. 

 

(My perspective is probably not helped by finding Belle's performer not only outclassed, but truly terrible, and thinking of her voice the same way I do nails/chalkboards.  It sounds like she's whining everything--even the stuff she's happy about, and I just want her to not talk.  At all.  Maybe if she signed, or used a mini whiteboard.)

Edited July 2, 2014 by Mari

[Amerilla]

Are we supposed to think that Belle believes Rumple regrets killing Milah?

 

I would bet my last dollar that the showrunners have spent exactly ZERO time pondering how Rumpel feels about killing Milah or how Belle feels about him killing Milah since they wrote that episode. It's part of the general hand-waving they do of all killing on the show.

 

Milah's murder was a plot device to give Hook a "romantic/tragic" rationale for revenge. I don't think they really thought much beyond that, which is why neither Belle or Neal are given the voice to question or acknowledge or mention it. Especially after CS started going full steam, because Milah has now lost even that minor importance.

The Rumbelle relationship itself is interesting, because it does raise questions of light and dark, good and evil, that we don't see in, say, Snowing. But the writers are not interested in pursuing any of those questions, or even keeping the pair in the same place at the same time..... much less have a conversation about *feelings*.

 

ETA: This is part of a global issue I have with relationships on the show these days...they don't even come close to replicating how actual human beings would ever interact, even in fictional or fantasy worlds. That's why so much of discussion of key relationships falls back on headcanon or crack ships or tired arguments about "why x is an idiot for not doing y," when the writers themselves clearly aren't into building fully-rounded characters in complex interactions.  (I can't find it in me to fault Belle for not questioning Rumpel about Milah, because Belle would question him, has questioned him on many other things - but she can't because the people that put the words in her mouth don't care.)

 

The only couple that comes close is Snowing, and I think that's 99% because Josh and Ginny are so obviously a real-life true-love couple, not because of anything the show gives them. It bleeds into their performance.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Amerilla

[legaleagle53]

But I admittedly suffer since childhood a (Disney-) Princess-allergy, I find these sweet,perfect, good looking, allegedly good hearted, spoiled brats getting happy endings all the time annoying ;)

 

Regina, is that you?  ;-)

[myril]

Regina, is that you?  ;-)

Psssssttt! ( What was this memory wipe spell again? Where is the book of spells, when I need it...)

[Geeni]

 

Is the audience supposed to think that Milah's murder was justified because she was a "bitch", and left her family,

 

Oh trust me, 99% of the R/B shippers ACTUALLY do think this. But they also whitewash Rumple/the relationship and absolutely deny the gaping problematic flaws in it, so...

 

 

Regina, is that you?  ;-)

 

I'd be more likely to think they were referring to Regina :)

[FAU]

 

Milah's murder was a plot device to give Hook a "romantic/tragic" rationale for revenge. I don't think they really thought much beyond that, which is why neither Belle or Neal are given the voice to question or acknowledge or mention it. Especially after CS started going full steam, because Milah has now lost even that minor importance.

 

She was always a plot device, first to Rumple then to Hook and then completely forgotten.

[KingOfHearts]

She was always a plot device, first to Rumple then to Hook and then completely forgotten.

 

Marian, unfortunately, seems to have a similar fate. She's almost Milah v2. Welcome to the plot device club... Henry's the president!

 

Another female character with very little depth used solely to cause a riff in a love triangle.

Edited July 3, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FAU]

Marian, unfortunately, seems to have a similar fate. She's almost Milah v2. Welcome to the plot device club... Henry's the president!

 

Another female character with very little depth used solely to cause a riff in a love triangle.

 

Exactly, it's all about Poor Regina's feelings after all and not the woman who was separated from her family for so long.

Edited July 3, 2014 by FAU

[Mari]

Yeah, I think the thing that really bugs though, even if they don't know about the prison thing, is that they all immediately jumped on the Neal/Emma train without knowing absolutely anything about their actual relationship, outside of the fact that they had a child together. That sends a really ugly "bio parents together" message. 

And like... even if you never think to ask "so what happened then?" (which already makes you look like a self-centered asshole, since Snow knew Emma had bad feelings about Neal), what you do know is that Emma was a teenage mother who gave birth in prison, and the baby daddy was so much out of the picture, he didn't even know she was pregnant. Even without knowing Neal was the reason Emma was in prison, wouldn't just that information you do have make you think twice about encouraging the relationship? 

If we're looking for actual motives, I think some of it is completely different life experiences and world expectations.

 

On the surface, a lot of their experiences are similar.  They were both on the run from the law, they both had bad experiences with parental figures, they both met a guy . . .

And yes, while Snow was Bandit Snow, she was technically homeless and on the run, too.  She'd've gone to prison or been executed if caught.  But the people she met?  Red, Granny, Grumpy, and David.  All of those people love her.  All of those people become her family.  They could've been separated for years (or killed) if they'd been caught by the wrong king or queen.  But to Snow, on the run is the adventure where you meet your future husband and pseudo family. 

 

As for the age difference, right now, that seems to be perfectly acceptable in the Enchanted Forest.  Both of Leopold's wives were noticeably younger, and no one bats an eye at Belle/Rumple.  I don't think it occurs to her that it should be an issue.

 

I don't think Snow has the context in her head to understand that the world isn't that way for everyone.  She's always had that.  Yes, there was Regina--but there were also doting parents, and nannies, and friends.  She was never truly an alone teenager who was abandoned by her much older lover.  In her head, the lover doesn't abandon you.  He was just unavoidably detained.

[Dani-Ellie]

From the Emma thread:

 

Also wrong. Surely he wasn't in love with her when he offered his ship? He barely new her. He was there for Baelfire, right?

 

No, I don't believe Hook was in love with her then. Attracted and intrigued, yes, but in love, no. I think he offered his ship for Baelfire's sake, as a way to make it up to Bae (if he couldn't help Bae, he was going to do what he could to help Bae's son), but I also think there was a tiny little bit of doing it because of Emma, too. Not because he was in love with her but because she'd offered him the chance to do something good in the diner. She'd said, "Here's this thing that we're going to do and you could choose to help or you could run away and be alone again." And at first he chose to run away, but then he came back, for Baelfire and to feel that sense of belonging he'd felt with Bae before everything turned to shit. Hook was taking her up on her offer, basically. He was choosing to help; it just so happened that what he'd thought he was going to help with (saving the town) had turned into a different disaster (Henry getting kidnapped).

 

But still he helped, and it was in the course of helping that he fell in love with her. What I really think kickstarted it for him was seeing her almost drown. There was a reason the camera panned to him after she started breathing again, and the relief on his face was telling. He'd just been faced with the possibility of a world without Emma Swan in it and I don't think he liked how that looked.

[Serena]

For what it's worth, I remember Colin on Twitter saying his motivation was both Emma and Bae.

[pezgirl7]

Here are some Captain Swan related quotes from Jen at the Aussie Comic Con, thanks to the twitter user xoalana6ox.

Jen said people misunderstand Emma shunning Hook to mean she doesn't care.

"Its because she's vulnerable around him & that scares her."

"They're like two kids on a playground. They kick each other but they do it because they like eachother"

Jen also admitted that Emma's judgement is often clouded around Hook because of her feelings for him.

She felt like the Captain Swan kiss at the end of 3x22 was their "real first kiss."

She talked about how Hook's sacrifice really spoke to Emma because she similarly clung on to her past & so could acknowledge how big it was.

Her all time favourite Once moment was Hook saying "As you wish"

"I had my own Princess Buttercup moment!"

[maryle]

The problem some people have a hard time to understand Emma outside of ship bias is that she is a result of trauma but the writer choose to just touch it at a superficial level and not really deeper how her childhood impact Emma now with the people around her. Flashback of some of her struggle will have made Wonder to understand her.

 

I like Jmo quote about Emma needing therapy because we can saw it with her interaction with her parent and Hook. And the quoke about how they fight like children because she is scare , she does not how to handle a mature realationship because she has been hurt so much and she never have really meaningful relationship with anybody. So her maturity is at a child level.

Well, Emma always likes Hook it was there if you are open to see it. By example, she is the one who offered his chance at being part of the group, she let him get close to her and listen to his plan and Neverland. She is the one who kissed him…

 

I have to say it, I do admire her. I usually do not really follow the actor or actress because they often add nothing and for me learning too much about actors made the character less credible. But I did watch some interview with her at Comic Con and she wins me over. Beautiful but so funny and bright!

[Amerilla]

Jen said people misunderstand Emma shunning Hook to mean she doesn't care.

"Its because she's vulnerable around him & that scares her."

 

 

Let me preface this by saying that I have a lot of sympathy for Jen and for Lana, because I think of all the actors, they have to work harder to try to find their characters' motivation within the scripts and stories they're handed.

 

That being said: people have that misunderstanding because that is what Jen is bringing to the role and to the relationship. Up until the various moments the script compels her to go into "Oh Killian!" vapors, she didn't give a whiff of being "scared" because he makes her feel "vulnerable." For the most part, she's played it more like "bored" with a dash of "disdain"

 

This is not a minority opinion. This crosses fandoms. In fact, the one thing SwanQueens, SwanFires, Hooker, CSers and anti-CSers all agree on is that Emma doesn't seem all that into Hook, and that becomes the ammo used to prove she doesn't love him as much as she loves [insert half-ship here] or that she's got these "walls" and only he can heal her damaged heart, or that she's not worthy of Killian's Awesome Love. Even people like me, who don't really have enough in either character to care much who they're "in wuv" with, can see it.

 

I feel like a lot of her flatness in her portrayal stems from the failure of the writers to make Hook into a character she would fall for. (Whenever she's asked to give reasons why they'd be a couple, she falls back on generalities that translate to: "well, they're both carbon-based life forms...")  What in Emma Swan - a thoroughly modern, independent woman looking to build a settled life in the reality-based world with a teenage son - would be drawn to a 300+ year old pirate who spent a good chunk of those 300 years in an obsessive, often violent quest for revenge?  Nothing. The reality of Captain Swan is that they're together because Colin is "hot," and there's a perception that Emma needs a love interest. Period. She's got to make that work, and I wish her good luck. Even as I fast-forward through an increasing amount of the show out of boredom.

 

Her all time favourite Once moment was Hook saying "As you wish"

"I had my own Princess Buttercup moment!"

 

 

Really? That's honestly her favorite moment for the show she's headlined for 3+ years - a lame, lazy callback to a movie that, beyond the vague pirate/princess thing, has absolutely no relevance to the story?

 

That just makes me sad. I may have to go eat a piece of cake to return myself to happiness....

[Camera One]

That being said: people have that misunderstanding because that is what Jen is bringing to the role and to the relationship. Up until the various moments the script compels her to go into "Oh Killian!" vapors, she didn't give a whiff of being "scared" because he makes her feel "vulnerable." For the most part, she's played it more like "bored" with a dash of "disdain"

 

Regardless of the intention, I actually liked this portrayal.  I liked that Emma didn't express much of an interest.  That's what makes Emma Emma to me.  But then again, I really had no interest in seeing Emma gain a romantic interest.  I wanted actual focus on her own character development and relationship building with family and platonic friends, but nope, it's easier to write a love story.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Camera One

[Dani-Ellie]

That being said: people have that misunderstanding because that is what Jen is bringing to the role and to the relationship. Up until the various moments the script compels her to go into "Oh Killian!" vapors, she didn't give a whiff of being "scared" because he makes her feel "vulnerable." For the most part, she's played it more like "bored" with a dash of "disdain"

 

And yet I fully got the "Emma's pushing him away because the thought of this going somewhere scared the crap out of her" thing all throughout season 3. Every time Hook was bantering with her on a superficial level, she bantered back. The second he started getting serious, she would shut it down. The groundwork for this was laid out in "Tallahassee" when she told him that she was leaving him on the beanstalk because she couldn't take a chance that she was wrong about him, so to me, it didn't look like she was all, "Nope" when it came to the idea of him pursuing her. It looked to me like she was shutting it down because the thought of letting him in scared the shit out of her.

 

Again, it's interesting what people read into the same piece of text.

[MaiLuna]

Emma was definitely doing the doey-eyes to Hook quite a lot in 3B (specially in the forest scene in 3.14 and the Granny's scene in 3.16) and both times you can actually see her "oh crap, shit's getting too serious" expression before she turns away. I think she just found it all a bit too much so she chose to ignore it. I mean, really, how more in denial can you be when Regina made the comment in 3.17 and she said "what's that supposed to mean?" all clueless. I mean, it's ok if she didn't reciprocate, but to ignore his feelings for her altogether after he said he'd think of her everyday and that he came back to save her (and tried TLK on her) makes me think Emma was basically covering her ears and singing "I can't hear you. Nope, you don't have feelings for me and I definitely don't have feelings for you."

But, I do agree that a little more feeling from Emma would've been nice before the finale kiss. We got little glimpses here and there but they weren't very easy to read, specially for a casual viewer.

[KingOfHearts]

Emma avoided Hook in 3B because he gave her the truth. He called her on her denials. Emma didn't want to hear the truth that running to New York was not the solution to the problem. Hook, unlike most characters on the show, talks straight to her. He doesn't sugarcoat things. She may not like it, but she also knows she needs that. I wish Outlaw Queen was more like Captain Swan in that respect.

 

Unlike other men Emma has dated, Hook doesn't have an ulterior motive for wanting to be her boyfriend. Hook isn't even there for Emma's family - he's there for her and her alone. That's true love to me.

 

Emma is very hard to read unless you've related to her situation before. Even with her walls down, she's very straight-faced. Her signals are difficult to pick up on. With that said, it got annoying in the latter half of 3B. The way Emma said her "I <3 NY" lines just came off as bitchy.

Edited July 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I have to agree that I think JMo overplayed "Emma shuts down on Hook constantly." To me, whatever the intent, it ended up coming off as "Emma's not that interested."

 

Hopefully JMo will lighten up on that in S4, and we will get to see them in a more "natural" way.

Edited July 5, 2014 by stealinghome

[Serena]

And yet I fully got the "Emma's pushing him away because the thought of this going somewhere scared the crap out of her" thing all throughout season 3. Every time Hook was bantering with her on a superficial level, she bantered back. The second he started getting serious, she would shut it down. The groundwork for this was laid out in "Tallahassee" when she told him that she was leaving him on the beanstalk because she couldn't take a chance that she was wrong about him, so to me, it didn't look like she was all, "Nope" when it came to the idea of him pursuing her. It looked to me like she was shutting it down because the thought of letting him in scared the shit out of her.

 

Again, it's interesting what people read into the same piece of text.

Yup. I don't know who are those CS shippers who think Emma doesn't show feelings for Hook are, but I think they must be the ones who think she was soooo hard on him for for getting pissed he didn't talk about the kiss curse. Basically the Hook-fan equivalent of the Regina-fans who get pissed when the Charmings don't worship Regina's ass 24/7. But I, as someone who ships CS but is mostly into the show for Emma, could also see the "Emma is scared shitless of opening up to Hook so she shuts down" narrative as far back as Tallahassee. 

Now, acting is subjective and certainly people are free to think Jennifer didn't convey it in her acting. Hell, there are people who regularly think she conveys that Emma is madly in love with Regina! But I personally think it was clearly there, as long as you realize that Emma is a closed off person. That's just who she is.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Serena

[MaiLuna]

 

Yeah, I have to agree that I think JMo overplayed "Emma shuts down on Hook constantly." To me, whatever the intent, it ended up coming off as "Emma's not that interested."

The thing is, I think if she wasn't interested she would just ignore him. The fact that she chose to constantly take jabs at him showed she cared. She was not indifferent to him.

 

And I don't think Emma shuts down on Hook. Yes, she says some mean things to him to test him but opens up to him quite a lot. She talked about Neal sending her to jail, her running from her foster homes as a kid, her feelings about her engagement to Walsh; things we've never seen her tell anyone else.  

Edited July 5, 2014 by MaiLuna

[Souris]

And yet I fully got the "Emma's pushing him away because the thought of this going somewhere scared the crap out of her" thing all throughout season 3. Every time Hook was bantering with her on a superficial level, she bantered back. The second he started getting serious, she would shut it down. The groundwork for this was laid out in "Tallahassee" when she told him that she was leaving him on the beanstalk because she couldn't take a chance that she was wrong about him, so to me, it didn't look like she was all, "Nope" when it came to the idea of him pursuing her. It looked to me like she was shutting it down because the thought of letting him in scared the shit out of her.

 

Again, it's interesting what people read into the same piece of text.

 

That's 100% exactly the reading I got, too. I totally saw Emma be rattled around him multiple times because he was getting to her in a way she wasn't ready to deal with. I certainly can't see things through other viewers' eyes and experiences, but the fact she was attracted to him was clear as day to me, practically from the start. She was totally mesmerized when he was bandaging her hand in "Tallahassee." She abandoned him on the beanstalk because she sensed something there and couldn't make the leap of faith to trust it and him. Then there was the "You and I? We understand each other" at the end of S2 -- very telling, as not many people seem to understand Emma.

 

Most of the time, she would go right along with the flirting and innuendo, because that's something Ms. One-Night Stand was fine and comfortable with. But get deeper and serious? Eek! Run away! If he wasn't getting to her, she wouldn't have run. She would have simply let him be serious because it meant little to her, or made it clear she wasn't attracted to him. She never tried to shut his feelings for her down -- she simply refused to allow herself to deal with them.

 

And yet, for all her running scared from him, at the same time, she opened up to him far more than with any other character on the show ever. She told him things she wouldn't and didn't tell anyone else. That's SUPER telling for Emma. She's always been more vulnerable with him than anybody else. For Emma, that's a huge tell.

 

I saw this long before I actively shipped them -- in fact, I was actively trying NOT to ship them or anyone else on this show or any other. I instituted a no-shipping TV-show policy for myself seven years ago, because I got too annoyed and frustrated by past ships. I wasn't getting invested in any other couples, absolutely not. Specter of a triangle? Oh, HELL TO THE NO. And I kept faithfully to that rule until late in this season with Hook and Emma, because it was just so. freaking. obvious. to. me. that I finally threw my hands up and caution to the wind and said, "OK, FINE!!" Neal dying removed the last obstacle for me, that dreaded triangle possibility. But I saw it from "Tallahassee." I was just being Emma about it, LOL.

 

Of course, I also happened to be there when two co-workers were introduced for the first time, and I practically saw the little electric heart bubbles pop up over their heads. There was absolutely nothing in their words to indicate this, just something in the air, but I went to a friend immediately afterward and said, "I'm calling it now, "Bob" and the new girl? They're totally gonna get together." And now they're inseparable. So maybe I just especially notice stuff like that.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Souris

[Shanna Marie]

I thought that while verbally she was saying she wasn't interested or didn't want to talk, her body language said the opposite. She let him get way too close physically for someone she said she didn't want to be near. I've had men I wasn't interested in get interested in me, and there's a lot of backward stepping, putting bookcases and tables between them and me, etc., that Emma never did.

 

It doesn't help that both Emma and Hook shut down when things get personal. They just have different ways of putting up the walls. She'll outright say "I don't want to talk about it" or "We aren't having this conversation." He seems to put the flirt on when she even comes close to getting personal with him and demanding something from him. That's when he'll waggle the eyebrows, give her a cheeky grin and say something suggestive so that instead of continuing to ask personal questions he doesn't want to answer, she'll roll her eyes and walk away. The one time he didn't do that with her is at the very end when he finally answered her question about how he got to her. He's volunteered information when he thought it might help her or get through to her (like the "you can never go back" stuff, except he left out a lot of details), but he doesn't answer questions. It'll be interesting to see if she can now start getting past his walls, which are more invisible because he puts them up in different ways. He does the fake openness to the point of TMI thing to discourage questions or derail the conversation rather than "I don't want to talk about it."

[YaddaYadda]

The groundwork for this was laid out in "Tallahassee" when she told him that she was leaving him on the beanstalk because she couldn't take a chance that she was wrong about him, so to me, it didn't look like she was all, "Nope" when it came to the idea of him pursuing her. It looked to me like she was shutting it down because the thought of letting him in scared the shit out of her.

 

I agree with this.  If she was worried about being wrong about him, then it meant she was actually right about what she knew, right?  And it tracks back to when she's locked up in Rumple's cell and she tells him he would have done the same to her and his reply is nope, I wouldn't have left you tied up with a giant.

 

I think one of the most telling things about Emma in S3 is that she actually started trusting Hook, in 3B, he was Henry's official babysitter.  You're letting this guy take your kid on a boat at night after he just lost his father...You don't encourage a guy to think of you every day if there wasn't something there, unless you're being sarcastic with them (yeah, you go ahead and do that, pal) which she wasn't.

 

Between Regina's comment about doey eyes and yearning looks and Zelena's barb about how Emma couldn't wait to run away from Hook, clearly people were seeing something there.  I just took Emma longer to let herself get to that point.

[Serena]

To be fair to the other side, though, it was probably meant to be much more obvious than it ended up being, right from season 2, but Colin breaking his leg jettisoned those plans. I believe Neal and Hook were supposed to have a scene together the day after Colin's incident, and I just need to know what it was about.

[MaiLuna]

 

I think one of the most telling things about Emma in S3 is that she actually started trusting Hook, in 3B, he was Henry's official babysitter.  You're letting this guy take your kid on a boat at night after he just lost his father...

 

Exactly. She actually said "I trust him" outloud, which is a HUGE deal to Emma, and IMHO, as important as love for her. For example, she loved Neal, but I'm not sure she could really trust him any more. She included Hook in their meetings, waiting for him to the point that Charming actually had to tell her that stopping Zelena was the priority.

And that makes me ask, did Charming know the details of Hook's curse? He knew about it in the hospital but when Emma said Zelena took her magic he didn't seem to know how it could've happened.

 

 

The groundwork for this was laid out in "Tallahassee" when she told him that she was leaving him on the beanstalk because she couldn't take a chance that she was wrong about him, so to me, it didn't look like she was all, "Nope" when it came to the idea of him pursuing her. It looked to me like she was shutting it down because the thought of letting him in scared the shit out of her.

She was really scared and I think it was one of the moments when we saw her being the most vulnerable. When she says "Hook, I can't..." she was looking at the floor and stuttering. I don't think we've ever seen Emma stutter other that in that scene.

[Amerilla]

Who hasn't babysat Henry at this point? I think Belle is the only one he's yet to be dumped with.

[Souris]

Truthfully, I can only remember him being left with his grandparents, Hook, Regina, Archie and Leroy.

[YaddaYadda]

Truthfully, I can only remember him being left with his grandparents, Hook, Regina, Archie and Leroy.

Ruby and Granny with her crossbow.

[FabulousTater]

This crosses fandoms. In fact, the one thing SwanQueens, SwanFires, Hooker, CSers and anti-CSers all agree on is that Emma doesn't seem all that into Hook, and that becomes the ammo used to prove she doesn't love him as much as she loves [insert half-ship here] or that she's got these "walls" and only he can heal her damaged heart, or that she's not worthy of Killian's Awesome Love. Even people like me, who don't really have enough in either character to care much who they're "in wuv" with, can see it.

People choose to believe and see what they want to see. 

Just because some in the audience don't see it doesn't mean others don't. And it doesn't make it a failing of the performances if a fanatical but minority segment of what is a very large audience are incapable of seeing what is plain as day to others. Especially when that segment of viewers already loathes one of the characters in that couple and are at best neutral (wavering towards dislike) with the other half. Perception is colored by bias and everyone is biased. Referencing the opinions of the fanatical SwanQueen, SwanFire and anti-CS crowd isn't evidence of a universal truth because that segment of the fans would argue water is NOT wet if it got them what they wanted.

 

Even the most critically acclaimed performance to have ever happened on screen will still have some critics who can't see what everyone else enjoys about it. The best any performer can hope for is to have the majority convinced, and far as I can tell from mainstream media in regards to Emma's feelings towards Hook, the majority is convinced that she likes him (and her keeping him at arms length - and yet at the same time telling him things she's told no one else and trusting him more than she trusts anyone else (or at least very, very few others) - came from her deep-seated fear of letting herself be emotionally vulnerable with him because she does have feelings for him).

Edited July 5, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Souris]

Ruby and Granny with her crossbow.

 

Ah, yes!

[Rumsy4]

The problem with saying Emma or JMo should have been more obvious ignores the fact that this is a TV Show--the Happily Ever After stage is not there yet. Emma had regressed in 3B to the point where her calling her parents Mom and Dad felt more unearned than her kissing Hook and letting him in. She shared more with Hook than with anyone else in 3B. As someone recovering from heart-break, anything else would have been too fast.

While Emma's cutting remarks weren't pretty to watch, they were understandable from where she was coming from. I am one of those CS shippers who felt that Emma was too harsh with Hook over the dumb Kiss-Curse thing, only because I hated her one-hand remark which felt ableist. But I am past it now. ;-)

Edited July 5, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Serena]

I agree her remark was ableist, Rumsy4. There's really no way about it, that was one of Emma's ugliest moments. I don't think she actually thinks he's less because of his disability, it's just her mind going to a bad place in that moment.

[CatMack]

I remember fandoms for shows Fringe and Nikita had a lot of people, at least at some point in the series, who believed that Anna Torv and Maggie Q were bad actresses because the characters Olivia and Nikita are in the beginning very closed off and kept their emotions hidden from others.  It was a deliberate acting choice and both those actresses have proved themselves to be very, very good at their craft.  But people have a hard time accepting women as the hard, emotionless ones.  Women aren't supposed to be gruff to the point of rudeness.  Women are supposed to show their vulnerabilities.  They can be strong, just not too strong, hard but not too hard.

 

I have a hard time looking at complaints about Emma not being obvious enough about her feelings for Hook and not seeing this phenomena at the root of it.  Because there are a million and one reasons why Emma would be closed off.  Why she wouldn't want to show any vulnerability or open herself up to any more pain than has already been inflicted on her by the other people in her life.  Why she would be exceedingly careful about who gets to see the soft parts of her that so many people have abused in the past.   And I can't accept answers like "well she should have shown just a little more" for two reasons.  1, I think she did, as has already been stated by others above me (the seeking him out, trusting him with Henry, confiding in him).  But 2, why should she?  Why should a trauma victim who has never been allowed by the narrative or the other characters to deal with her trauma in an emotionally healthy way - why should that character be required to make herself vulnerable, to show off her emotions when she doesn't want to, to make those emotions valid? 

 

Not all women are emotional, not even a little bit.  Some of us have learned not to let even a little bit of what we're feeling get seen by others, because it's not safe or it's too painful.  I think Jen has done an excellent job creating a beautiful character out of inconsistent and shallow writing - she's given Emma the edge and hardness that the writing doesn't want to explicitly acknowledge because it would make Regina and Neal look too horrible if they actually delved into the physical, emotional, and mental realities of what she went through as a child and young adult.  The way Jen plays Emma shows us that reality as clearly as possible, because she understands that.  She understands the trauma that Emma lives with even when the writers don't want to deal with it. 

Edited July 5, 2014 by CatMack

[stealinghome]

I don't think that's necessarily a gendered criticism. A lot of people thought Stephen Amell on Arrow was more wooden than a tree when that show started, but he's shown that that was clearly an acting choice to show just how damaged Oliver was/is.

I think one can acknowledge that Emma is generally a closed-off character, and be fine with that, and still think JMo overplayed Emma's walls being up around Hook.

[KingOfHearts]

Neal was also very closed off and wooden at times. That may seem logical, but it's also not very entertaining. Emma's problems became old as 3B went on. Her character remaining static until the finale wasn't very fulfilling for a TV show. It was the way Emma handled that looked immature and rude. (Making snarks about Hook being one-handed, just walking away, etc.) It just got annoying.

 

Being closed-off is one thing, but how one acts on it is a choice.

Edited July 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I agree her remark was ableist, Rumsy4. There's really no way about it, that was one of Emma's ugliest moments. I don't think she actually thinks he's less because of his disability, it's just her mind going to a bad place in that moment.

Agree Serena. It was an ugly remark, but I too don't think she really thinks he is less able. We all say things we regret later, and it actually makes Emma more human. However, these writers never deal with fallout, and this remark will forever remain unaddressed. But the fact that she childishly lashed out at him this way rather than through mature conversation shows her asolescent mentality and how hurt she was by him.

Emma has never learnt to deal with emotional hurt properly, and is only now learning to process them healthily. Hence Hook's "If it was broken that means it still works" remark holds significance. For the first time, Emma was not pushing her feelings away or hiding her heart-break. I think we'll see a more open Emma next season. I do think they overdid Emma's regression in 3B--her New York refrain became quite irritating after a while. And they only dealt with it in the Finale, which was problematic pacing.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

I think one can acknowledge that Emma is generally a closed-off character, and be fine with that, and still think JMo overplayed Emma's walls being up around Hook.

Is it possible that it was overplayed because of the New York mantra?  Playing devil's advocate for a moment, but Emma planned on going back to New York as soon as Zelena was done with.  Emma seems to be someone who is very focused on her goals, if she says she'll do something, she usually follows through and nothing was going to convince her to stay in Storybrooke.

[CatMack]

Emma's problems became old as 3B went on. Her character remaining static until the finale wasn't very fulfilling for a TV show. It was the way Emma handled that looked immature and rude. (Making snarks about Hook being one-handed, just walking away, etc.) It just got annoying.

 

Being closed-off is one thing, but how one acts on it is a choice.

 

 

Is it possible that it was overplayed because of the New York mantra?  Playing devil's advocate for a moment, but Emma planned on going back to New York as soon as Zelena was done with.  Emma seems to be someone who is very focused on her goals, if she says she'll do something, she usually follows through and nothing was going to convince her to stay in Storybrooke.

 

I think the problem here is how much of people's complaints are from Jen's performance (which is what I was specifically talking about), and how much from the crappy writing.  Because I agree her character stagnation got old, but I can't really blame Jen for that.  Or for Emma's rude dialogue to Hook, which she didn't write.  When the writers are putting "New York is great, New York will solve all my problems, all hail New York" dialogue in her mouth every episode, Jen can't control that.  All she can do is try to play it in a way that makes the most sense possible with what she's previously established as Emma's personality.  If the writing isn't going to let her dialogue, character motivation, or future plans progress until the finale, her emotional state as acted by Jen, has to match that or you get a weird mismatch where there seems to be even less of a reason for her to keep talking about New York and refusing to let anyone in.

[KingOfHearts]

I agree it's the writing, not the actress. Jennifer is one of my favorite actors on the show. She could only act what's written. Her character was written to overplay New York, so that's what she had to do. It's unfortunate that's all she got to do through most of 3B in favor of Zelena, Outlaw Queen and Baby Snowflake.

 

Captain Swan seems to be sailing now though, so that should make up for it. Another interesting thing to note: Emma opened up to Hook in the finale after she dealt with her emotional issues. After she didn't have something to run away from, she put her walls down for him.

Edited July 5, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

It's not just the writing, it's also whoever is directing the scenes.  I mean they're asking the actors to give them this or that. 

 

Emma has walls are so high and thick and big, they cane be photographed from space and NASA mistook them for another wall of China.  They drove that point so much and so often and so hard, I think we all cried uncle. 

 

The whole thing with Hook really bugged but as long as it doesn't keep happening...

[maryle]

Actually, it is the writer fault they choose the plot  Gimmick for Emma  can a lost girl find home so her character could not evolve before the final. It is a writer choice to focus on the idea Plot and the character can only suffer from this type of narrative because nothing is organic .

 

Emma was annoying because the writer choose contrive angts between Emma and Hook so Emma had to regress a little bit, stay a little vague about her feeling about Hook so in the final all become clearer by magic time travel.
I totaly blame the writer here and not JMO.

[Serena]

Really? That's honestly her favorite moment for the show she's headlined for 3+ years - a lame, lazy callback to a movie that, beyond the vague pirate/princess thing, has absolutely no relevance to the story?

 

That just makes me sad. I may have to go eat a piece of cake to return myself to happiness....

Because I feel like spreading happiness today, her favourite scene is actually the Emma/Snow scene from Lost Girl. Hope your cake was good.

[Amerilla]

Cake was good. And thank you :-)

[Dani-Ellie]

From the Cons thread:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rC3Mz6YzTg

 

Jen talking about the imporvised hug between Emma and Regina that was cut.

 

 

 

What Jen just feeling huggy in that period? She also improvised an hug with Hook, the episode just after that. 

 

 

What I find interesting about this is here you have your actors, the people you've chosen to pay to know these characters inside and out, improvising things that would give the scenes a little bit more of an emotional punch, and the production team has chosen, for whatever reason, not to use them. And I know there could be a million and one reasons not to use these little unscripted takes, but I find it interesting. These are two instances we know about ... are there any more of them, and if so, how many of them are there?

 

Something I've noticed with Lana as Regina, which I feel adds to the flip-floppy nature of Regina as a character, is that she'll have these little moments where, for a split second, I feel like Regina gets it. For instance, when Emma was explaining to everyone in Bae's cave how she knew Bae stopped counting days because he gave up hope, Regina averts her gaze and looks down for a moment. I don't know whether it was just sympathy for Emma or a recognition of the fact that her actions led to Emma understanding how the Lost Boys think, but it was lovely. I have no idea if it was scripted or not, but if it wasn't, it was a really nice little thing for Lana to do because on some level, Regina got it. And then the writing like, four episodes later has Regina stating that she has no regrets, which flies in the face of that one little moment in Bae's cave.

 

It's like, the actors are trying to give the characters a little bit of growth, here, but it ends up either reversed by the writing (and sometimes the writing reverses itself) or on the cutting room floor. I just don't understand why they seem to be so allergic to letting the emotions out.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Rumsy4]

From filming spoilers, there were pictures/video of Emma and Walsh share a hug and an awkward forehead-kiss for 3.12. I don't know if that was improvised as well or not. Clearly, JMo saw Emma as being in a more vulnerable/open place at the end of Going Home. In fact, that is what a lot of us suspected because Emma did seem more open to accepting her parents and letting in Hook and wanting to go back to the Enchanted Forest with all of them. And I agree Dani-Ellie, that moment Regina had in the cave did seem genuine, and yet, it's hard to know what the actor/director was going for when the characters seldom get the opportunity to really talk in the Show. 

[regularlyleaded]

I've come to the realization that I hate Snowing. The individual characters I like, sort of, (mostly not with Snow. I could stand 90% less of her) and I actually like the actors themselves, but Snow and Charming the couple? Nope, not so much. It's a hate that has been slowly building because I liked them in season 1. But now? Seething contempt. Intense loathing. For me, they've become the visual embodiment of having your teeth drilled without a local anesthetic and then having someone pour maple syrup directly into the holes.
 
All they do is gaze into each others eyes and declare their burning love for each other. That's it. That is now the entire scope of their storylines. Which they've kept repeating over and over and over in every damn scene for the last two years! Gah! After the 927634287364234 declaration I just wanna stab sharp objects into my eyes and ears so I don't have to hear or see it anymore. Thanks goodness for the fast forward button on my DVR!
 
Even when they "argue", 2 minutes later they're giving their "I can't live without you" speeches to each other. JFC, why are they even on the show anymore? They've got each other, which is 99% of what they care about, and baby do over encompasses the remaining 1%, so they're still here because...they need to redeem Regina??? I wish they would just write them off the show. Like the Elves sailing away to the Undying Lands in Lord of the Rings, Good-bye Snowing. And while the LoTR Elves would be missed, you are pointless, annoying, and so nauseatingly, obnoxiously sweet that even Barney the Purple Dinosaur thinks you've taken things too far. Go away. (I would also accept killing them both or just one of them).
 
I just don't care about seeing scene 293847923748273462873462387468 of them saying "I will always find you! You are the oxygen to my lungs! The water to my well!" Ya. We freakin' get it already. Now shut up and go away. There's nothing remotely interesting about them anymore. Even writing a story involving mortal peril is ridiculous because everyone knows that the writers aren't going to kill them. I mean, they actually killed Charming in 3B, the dude was dead as a doornail. His heart had been crushed. He wasn't mostly dead, he was DEAD. But, show of hands of who actually believed he was sincerely dead? Ya, maybe a whole two people. They brought him back not four minutes later with half of Snow's heart (and BTW totally broke their own dead is DEAD rule, and really, writers, half a heart? It's like five year olds wrote this). And why? So Snow and Charming  could gaze into each other's eyes some more. Give me an f-ing break. Hey, you want to know the opposite of riveting? Snow and Charming!
 
I think they had to introduce the baby storyline, not just because Goodwin was pregnant (because LBR, they could've just put her in a coma for a few months like every other soap opera does and seeing how 3B unfolded I really, really, really wish they had never introduced baby do over. Now I know why soap operas do comas for pregnant actresses - the alternative is WORSE). I think they introduced that storyline so Snow and David could gaze lovingly at something else other than each other for a few seconds. Oooh, won't that be exciting and interesting. They'll declare their burning passion for each other while changing diapers! I can't wait. Uuuuuugh!
 
And before anyone says, "But what about Emma's relationship with them?" let me just say, "What relationship?" The writers have had 2 seasons to address it and they've done nothing. They've had Emma call them "Mom" & "Dad" twice, but both times have been totally unearned and I think the writers keep scripting those in just to remind us they're related 'cause otherwise you'd never know it. The fact that they're related makes no difference whatsoever in the show. Sure, in the finale they had Emma stay because she had this epiphany that "family" (this show's twisted definition of that) is home, but that revelation was so out of nowhere, forcibly jammed in at the tail end of the finale, that the writers could've just as easily written that Emma decided to stay in Storybrooke because Granny's has the best grilled cheese sandwiches in the universe. And frankly, I would've found that far more believable.
 
I hope Elsa freezes Snow and Charming (and baby do over) for all of season 4 so that they're just ice statues for the entire season. At least that way I don't have to hear their bleating about how much they love each other for the rest of the year. What's funny is that If Elsa freezes them, I bet you won't be able to tell the difference between a storyline of them being ice statues and their storylines from the past two seasons.
 
(BTW - I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I'm just ranting. I know others enjoy the couple, which truth be told, I kind of envy. I wish I still liked them, but I don't.)

Edited July 8, 2014 by regularlyleaded