Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[CatMack]

Since this is one of the more prolific threads over on TWoP and we're all migrating, I figured we could use a space here to talk ad nauseum about who loves who and who has the most difficulty expressing said love in an emotionally healthy and mature manner.  Let's face it, on this show that's kind of a race to the bottom.

[GreyBunny]

I'm new to the show and I'm still sorting out who is who, but I get the distinct impression that virtually everyone belongs to One Big Happy Weasley Family...turned sideways.  A very oddly shaped family tree.

I love Hook.  He's a rated G villain/anti-hero and everyone kicks his butt but I love him nonetheless.  

So...he runs off with some other guy's wife, this guy comes back and kills her, Hook has a deathwish to be with her, then he meets someone else who he falls in love with but he's not her true love. And then there's the angst with his brother's death...  That poor pirate puppy.

 

[daxx]

Of course Hook could still be Emma's true love. True loves kiss doesn't work on memory loss. Recall Snow when she took the potion to forget Charming, she punched him. Rumple couldn't give Belle back her memories with TLK either.

[YaddaYadda]

I like a Hook a whole bunch and I just remember thinking how pretty and yet so ineffective he was. 

[Arandil]

who loves who and who has the most difficulty expressing said love in an emotionally healthy and mature manner

Hook loves Emma and Hook has the most difficulty expressing said love in an emotionally healthy and mature manner

Emma loves Hook and Emma has the most difficulty expressing said love in an emotionally healthy and mature manner

Regina loves Henry and Regina has the most difficulty expressing said love in an emotionally healthy and mature manner

Cora loves Regina and Cora has the most difficulty expressing said love in an emotionally healthy and mature manner

Snow loves Emma and Snow has the most difficulty expressing said love in an emotionally healthy and mature manner

Rumple loves Belle and Rumple has the most difficulty expressing said love in an emotionally healthy and mature manner

Rumple loves Neal and Rumple has the most difficulty expressing said love in an emotionally healthy and mature manner

Lol.

[Last Time Lord]

I've always beleived Emma's true love is and should always be her son.

[InsertWordHere]

I've always believed that a person can have more than one true love, especially if we're bringing familial love into it. Let's suppose Emma gets put under a sleeping curse and Snow wakes her up with true love's kiss. Does that mean Snow would no longer be Charming's true love or that Emma doesn't love her son as much or more than she loves her friend/mother? I don't think so.

[Ariah]

I believe the whole True Love thing is that is can be romantic, but can also be - I don't know how to put it - family oriented?

So: Henry is Emma's True Love (as proven by the kiss). But that doesn't mean Emma's heart is now closed (as much as she would like it to be) and she cannot find a romantic True Love. Henry is her Motherly True Love.

(And yes, I think Hook would be great as her Romantic True Love). But on this show you can simply be in love with someone without it being the majestic, magical True Love.

For instance: is Aurora and Philips's incomming child a True Love Child? It should be, the father woke the mother from a Sleeping Curse. Is Robin Hood's Roland a True Love Child? (Probably not, as the show trueated Maid Marion as a backdrop decoration). Is the second offspring of Snow and Charming also a True Love Child? Once again, it should be. But the whole True Love Child business is sketchy.

 

[YaddaYadda]

There are different types of love obviously.  The whole child of true love is just such a weird concept to me.  Is Henry the product of true love?  The circumstances of everything to me say that he's not, but it doesn't negate that he is special because he has the heart of the truest believer. (which I think might change once he has his memories back)

[OneLove]

Yadda Yadda, why do you think that? I'm sort of in the video games will save Henry camp, but I'm open to other ideas....

[BoPeeps]

OUAT is trying very hard to keep the concept of True Love alive and that is the core of its popularity~ that it does exist.

Realists, Failed Romantics, or even Eternal Romantics tend to doubt that it does, especially not forever after. Wonderful plotline point but is it much else? Once a couple is accepted as True Love. Then what? Happily Ever After doesn't make for interesting story telling because stories all END with that! Conflicts resolved. Happy happy joy joy Heh.

True Love. Or Twu Wuv. (I STILL love Princess Bride massively and to the point of, defiant, unconditional, irrational loyalty!*) Only in fairy tales...hmm, or not even there.

I might as well make my positions known (heh): (DIsclaimer...my opinion is simply that, I don't set out to change anyone's mind, nor have anyone attempt to prove me wrong :)~ but enjoy reading others opinions and talking about things that escape from and don't dwell on real life aggravations!) It's all a fun diversion.

I have hope that Swan will find some *emotional guts* and risk all that Hook so richly, sensually and intensely is offering her. Right now, if she doesn't, and remains on the *whinier*, stoically, hard a**ed route she tends to take, she deserves what she settles for because Hook, in all his tortured passion, deserves better than that. (Stay IN HER FACE about it, Captain Luscious Leather, you two could be a wickedly kick butt duo if she gives herself that chance)

Other than absolutely hating that they have killed off an absolute ICON of legendary True Love in Maid Marian, it would be intriguing if complex, passionate and tortured Regina could finally get some genuine heart hugs with a growingly sexy Robin Hood. They have great chemistry and sass potential. Tssssss.

Gold and Belle...well, I wish I liked Belle better, the actress is underwhelming, but in truth they haven't given her much to do other than be Rumple's pretty little conscience. The *IT* factor isn't there for me, but Rumple, as wretched as he has been, needs love from someone. The psychological implications of a Belle hook-up could be fascinating if Belle were...I dunno...a worthier partner. But I am still on their side.

Even our classic True Love couple, Snow and Charming manage to have moments of adorable *awww* factor but mostly when they are in Enchanted Forest personas. Backward realm jumping and Old Snow was a bona fide take no BS strong women role model. Yeah! And I have grown to feel quite the affection for Charming. David? (other than grown daddy angst) Meh, Mary Margaret? Bigger MEH. But they are the rocks that Happily Ever After is built upon. I would be crushed in my forever a dreamer, Hopeful Romantic, deeply imbedded heart if they didn't stay solid.

[YaddaYadda]

Yadda Yadda, why do you think that? I'm sort of in the video games will save Henry camp, but I'm open to other ideas....

OneLove, I really don't have any kind of huge speculation about it.  I think it's more an impression that I'm getting from re-watching a whole bunch of shows at the moment.  Henri just seems like a different character to me in some ways.  Not to mention that he's not 10 years old anymore.  And a year has gone by where he got a taste of what life might've been.  Emma seems to have a bit of a hard time, I can't imagine Henri jumping back in as if nothing happened.  He got to experience something that was normal and he has a tons of friends in New York whereas he was among adults in Storybrooke.  I think he is bound to act out.  And his acting out usually has a pretty big impact.

He brought Emma to town and let Pan take his heart.  He was being a brat.  I know some might not agree with me that he was being a brat, but he totally was. 

[Blue Girl]

Gotta say, I'm not feeling it yet with Regina/Robin.  Maybe they'll wow me in future episodes but for right now I'm pretty lukewarm towards that pairing.  I did have a poster mention to me that it was not explicitly stated that Robin was Regina's true love, but that he was her happy ending? If I'm remembering their post correctly. And that a happy ending could mean something else, like maybe they help each other find their way to happiness, even if that happiness is maybe loving someone else? I think THAT would actually be kind of cool, but I don't know if that's the way the show is going.  My feeling is they are setting them up for smoochies.

[InsertWordHere]

Regarding Henry, and I really hope I'm wrong about this, but did anyone get a vague sense that the show was trying to say that his new cynical character is "wrong" and is a direct result of his memories of being raised by Emma? I don't mean "wrong" in the cursed way, I mean wrong as in he was a better person because Regina raised him and Emma (in the memories) failed to give him something to believe in. The scene where he was ignoring Snow and playing his video game struck me, because while I know that Henry doesn't have the memories of Snow as his Grandmother of even a respected teacher, I kind of thought it seemed a little different from the old Henry. I know he's a teenager and they can be total jerks when the mood calls for it, but still. I just hope it's not going to turn into, "See, Regina really was better for Henry all along." I'm probably worrying too much.

[Blue Girl]

InsertWordHere, I think it would be difficult for them to argue Regina was able to raise him better, as he needed therapy when Regina raised him, and even Dr. Hopper had mentioned Regina's attempts to bring them closer over the years had only failed.  Plus, since Regina put Henry's current memories in his head, she technically  raised him this time too, as Emma's parenting skills only influenced him for the last year.

 I just hope we don't waste any time with Henry being mad at Emma once he gets his memories back, blaming her for not telling him sooner or something like that.

[Ariah]

Am I the only one who is not yet charmed by the Robin/Regina True Predestined Love and find it contrived?

I feel as if i 've been reading a crime story and someone just spoiled the ending for me. Not in a good way. I mean they look great together and the actors have good chemistry, but... I don't know. It seems like I SHOULD like them and ship them, and I'm still not over Maid Marian. 

Maybe if we didn't know beforehand that Robin is supposed to be Regina's True Love and the romance anvils were not dropping all over the place?

On the other hand, I'm an avid Captain Swan shipper and this pairing does not feel forced to me. i don't know what's wrong with me ;)

[YaddaYadda]

Regarding Henry, and I really hope I'm wrong about this, but did anyone get a vague sense that the show was trying to say that his new cynical character is "wrong" and is a direct result of his memories of being raised by Emma? I don't mean "wrong" in the cursed way, I mean wrong as in he was a better person because Regina raised him and Emma (in the memories) failed to give him something to believe in. The scene where he was ignoring Snow and playing his video game struck me, because while I know that Henry doesn't have the memories of Snow as his Grandmother of even a respected teacher, I kind of thought it seemed a little different from the old Henry. I know he's a teenager and they can be total jerks when the mood calls for it, but still. I just hope it's not going to turn into, "See, Regina really was better for Henry all along." I'm probably worrying too much.

I think it's the whole being a product of your environment bit.  He was "raised" in the real world where kids his age and older have their noses burried in their phones and games and roll their eyes when you look their way.  I think that's the feeling I'm getting is that he seems different.  I don't think it has anything to do with the way Emma raised him though.  The environment he was in with Regina vs the one he was in with Emma are completely different.  Henri was also vested with a mission which made him the truest believer who ever lived.  With Emma, his memories and the year he lived with her, he was just a normal kid surrounded by other normal kids. 

That's why I think he will act out.  If Emma is having a bit of a hard time with this, I would think that Henry will too. 

[OneLove]

If Henry acts out, Storybrooke is DOOMED. Heh. I see what you're saying, Yadda Yadda. He's a kid. It must be tough being the truest believer in town.

[BoPeeps]

Henry acting out is a great plot device to give Emma the dramatic excuse to struggle with returning to NYC once this curse is broken.

There could also be a bit of Adam and Eddy making a statement about the state of the Middle School Kid mind. (Nose glued to technology...kind of like...um...us!); a nudge-nudge reminder that we must always retain our imaginations and be able to BELIEVE outside the box, even when a mind is often lost INSIDE the box - of technology.

It it totally natural for a kid Henry's age to face all those hormone and environment issues. As soon as kids leave the cute® younger age, the awwwww factor shifts. (Enter Roland) No matter their upbringing, they start becoming more individual and less controllable by the parent they have the closest relationship with in their current life.

I hope they don't go the "blame" route for either Emma or Regina. Handling Henry's character is going to be tough enough with the actor's rapid growth spurt!

I am actually looking forward to Henry giving everyone some shaking up...

"Believe" theme and all that!

[YaddaYadda]

If Henry acts out, Storybrooke is DOOMED. Heh. I see what you're saying, Yadda Yadda. He's a kid. It must be tough being the truest believer in town.

He'll probably end up bringing some big bad because he doesn't exactly listen to either his mothers when they speak to him.  You know the whole don't give your heart to Pan and he goes and does it anyway because he knows better!

I wonder if Henry won't have some kind of magical powers himself as in active powers, not some kind of passive power like being the truest believer who ever believed.  I know, too much Charmed!

[stealinghome]

Yeah, at least thus far I'm not really getting the sense that the show is "blaming" Emma for Henry being a different person as much as it's just saying that Henry had a very different life and is thus a very different person as a result. (Cross your fingers that it stays that way!)

I mean, if anything, old!Henry was so quick to believe in the curse because the kid was miserable. Not only was he at an age where you're far more likely to believe in things like the curse, but it's pretty clear that he was so quick to believe in part because he was desperately unhappy and needed to find an explanation/hope that it would get better. I don't see nu!Henry as having anywhere that level of misery/needing to believe in something that bad to get him through the day. Nu!Henry is just a "normal, average" teenager, perhaps one that's a little more closely attuned to his single mom than most kids.

[Mari]

Belle just doesn't see Rumple clearly, does she?  When I pair her comment about loving all of him, even the parts that come from darkness with the exchange she and Neal had about why Rumple sacrificed himself to kill Pan, I come away with the picture of a character that just doesn't see what Rumple is truly capable of and responsible for because she doesn't want to see it.

I also came away wondering if that's how she truly feels--is she actually  in love with Rumplestiltskin the man, or would she stop loving him if he lost the Dark One curse?  From the way it's presented, a good chunk of Rumple's penchant for causing misery originates in the curse.  They've spoken of him being corrupted by it, so presumably he wouldn't go back to original model Rumple if the curse was broken, but he would (should?) still lose a great deal of the inclination to hurt and control others. 

If that happened, could she still love him?  If she loves not the good man trying to break free of the darkness, but the parts that come from darkness themselves?

[Shanna Marie]

 

I mean, if anything, old!Henry was so quick to believe in the curse because the kid was miserable. Not only was he at an age where you're far more likely to believe in things like the curse, but it's pretty clear that he was so quick to believe in part because he was desperately unhappy and needed to find an explanation/hope that it would get better. I don't see nu!Henry as having anywhere that level of misery/needing to believe in something that bad to get him through the day. Nu!Henry is just a "normal, average" teenager, perhaps one that's a little more closely attuned to his single mom than most kids.

Yeah, I don't think it's a "good" vs. "bad" thing, but the tradeoffs. Storybrooke Henry was lonely and had to rely on his imagination. New York Henry has friends and all the normal kid stuff. In one reality he's happy but doesn't have magic and heroics, in another reality he was unhappy and relied on stories to survive. Then there's the small town vs. the big city, and it's a small town that's in an odd little time warp, so it's not truly a modern small town. And Henry grew up surrounded by people from fairy tales, even if they didn't know that's what they were. So I think it has more to do with environment than with parenting. Age may also play a role. If Henry had been a couple of years older when Mary Margaret gave him the book, the outcome could have been very different. An older kid might have been too cynical to believe that the characters matched the people in his life.

[samhalliwell]

Popping in this thread to ramble about something that struck me after watching the Wonderland finale and reading opinions on it in forums. (Sort of spoilers for Wonderland ahead, I suppose, so be warned).

Someone on a forum said that they found the Alice/Cyrus pairing and their True Love/Happy Ending to be endearing and not tiresome or heavy-handed in comparison to Snowing. Now, I know Snow herself has suffered as a character during 3B, but I was never against/annoyed by their relationship being "perfect" or overcoming seemingly everything that's thrown at the couple. They're the Trope Codifiers for True Love and Happily Ever After in a Disney-owned fairytale show; it just seems, IMO and not trying to be pedantic, that if you don't like Snow White and Prince Charming of all people being unbelievably perfectly together, this is kind of the wrong story for you.

Anyone disagrees with my assessment, or is just bothered by them regardless? (And yes, it seems like I have a need to keep bringing Wonderland into topics because it ended tonight and was awesome, LOL).

[Blue Girl]

Belle just doesn't see Rumple clearly, does she?  When I pair her comment about loving all of him, even the parts that come from darkness with the exchange she and Neal had about why Rumple sacrificed himself to kill Pan, I come away with the picture of a character that just doesn't see what Rumple is truly capable of and responsible for because she doesn't want to see it.

I also came away wondering if that's how she truly feels--is she actually  in love with Rumplestiltskin the man, or would she stop loving him if he lost the Dark One curse?

Belle seemed OOC to me this episode.  Way back in Skin Deep when Regina asked Belle if she loved Rumpel,  Belle said she thought she could except that something evil had taken root in him.  At that time the thought of breaking his curse with true love's kiss appealed to her.

Then we get to this last episode and it is a 180 degree turn. All of a sudden she loves his dark parts too, since when?  Although observant posters mentioned she's sounding a lot like Lacey and after hearing that I realized that does seem true. The difference between the Belle in Skin Deep and the Belle in Quiet Minds is that she is now "both."  My pet theory is that the Lacey character never really loved Rumpel, so Belle was channeling her as a way to help her cope with Rumpel's death.

samhalliwell, I love Snow and Charming, they are the reason I started watching OUAT, but I can see why someone watching Wonderland might find the Alice/Cyrus pairing more satisfying/endearing because 1) it was short, 2) it was more focused on their story instead of being spread out among a large ensemble cast, and 3) then they got their happy ending.  Which to be fair is kinda easier than having an ongoing relationship that starts at the happy ending and then spans seasons with the huge crew of the mothership.  So yeah, at face value I can see someone glancing at them both and saying Alice/Cyrus feels better, but if their story was stretched out over 2 more seasons and they were constantly having to find each other again, it's my opinion their charm would start to run thin.  As for Snowing, I think their chemistry is practically magical when it's at its best but the writing is just killing them right now. I'm hopeful the writers will smooth this out more in S4. 

 

 

[FurryFury]

Personally, I don't mind Snowing but I hated Alice/Cyrus from what I've seen in Wonderland. To elaborate:

I absolutely believe that the central romance of a show, any show, should never be about a pre-existing couple. It just doesn't work for me. I have to see them fall in love in real time to start caring. I want to see them meet (preferably) or at least interact with each other as non-love interests for a period of time. I want to see both established as independent characters who just happen to fall in love with each other, not just two parts of romantic pairing. And, of course, there's the element of challenge, the puzzle - whether they will or won't. It's just not as fun when everything's safe and there's absolutely no chance they won't get together. 

Having established that, I mostly disliked Mary Margaret/David in season 1, but I was very much OK with Snow/Charming in flashbacks (even despite the "will get together 100%" part). Not only because they were better characters (seriously, it seems even the writers decided to forget about David Nolan altogether, too bad they didn't do the same with Mary Margaret, who seems to have completely overtaken Snow by this point), but because the love story was better written and organic, and mixed with adventure rather than a rehashed cheating plot. But after they got together, the show had done something I very much agree with - they pushed their romance in the background and focused on the characters in other roles, like parents to Emma (well, tried to focus. I can't say they've completely succeeded). And now the central romances are Emma/Hook and Robin/Regina, both of which are real-time developments. Both could be handled better, especially the second one, but hey, we can't have everything.

Edited April 4, 2014 by FurryFury

[Mari]

Belle seemed OOC to me this episode.  Way back in Skin Deep when Regina asked Belle if she loved Rumpel,  Belle said she thought she could except that something evil had taken root in him.  At that time the thought of breaking his curse with true love's kiss appealed to her.

Then we get to this last episode and it is a 180 degree turn. All of a sudden she loves his dark parts too, since when?  Although observant posters mentioned she's sounding a lot like Lacey and after hearing that I realized that does seem true. The difference between the Belle in Skin Deep and the Belle in Quiet Minds is that she is now "both."  My pet theory is that the Lacey character never really loved Rumpel, so Belle was channeling her as a way to help her cope with Rumpel's death.

Which brings me back to the question--if she's now Lacey and Belle, and therefore wants those parts rooted in darkness, does she truly love Rumple, or is the Dark One essential to their relationship? 

And if she now loves the Dark One bits of him because of the Lacey/Belle cross, could a Belle/Rumplestiltskin kiss still break the Dark One curse?  Because it would mean losing a huge part of Rumple that Belle/Lacey, presumably, would want him to keep.  Can you break a curse that would unmake the person you're in love with?

[FurryFury]

I actually don't think that losing the Dark One part will change Rumple that much, and he certainly will never come back to being the village coward. Too much has happened for that.

I do have a lot of other problems with Rumbelle, though - I think I've ranted about it on TWOP enough :)

[KAOS Agent]

 

Which brings me back to the question--if she's now Lacey and Belle, and therefore wants those parts rooted in darkness, does she truly love Rumple, or is the Dark One essential to their relationship?

I'm not sure that Belle understands Rumpel's dark parts. Or maybe it's more that she willfully misunderstands his dark side. He flayed Robin alive multiple times, but all she chooses to remember is that he let him go in the end - mostly because he was trying to please Belle and not for any altruistic purpose - but Belle's on the he's a good man train, so she chooses not to see that as his motive. Then as she was wandering the woods with Neal, she was waxing poetic about how heroic and selfless he was to save all of Storybrooke by sacrificing himself. Neal was rather incredulous that she thinks he did it to save the town and straight up tells her that she know that's not right. He did it to save his family. Belle's need to come up with creative motives that make Rumpel's actions better than they really are leads me to believe that she's covering when she says she loves his dark side. If she truly was capable of loving it, she would accept the actions that come out of it and not need to romanticize them or rationalize them away. 

Honestly though, I don't think Belle would have ever fallen in love with the humble spinner he was. She may have felt compassion for him, but Belle is all about the adventure. Rumpel was, and I think still is, a homebody. As the Dark One, he has power and can still give her the thrill she craves (maybe that's what she's talking about when she says she loves his dark parts?) even if they aren't traveling the world or having adventures. Stripped of his power, he's just a random guy who runs a pawn shop in a very odd small town. It would put her right back where Disney Belle hated - a provincial life in a small town. She may still love the man, but I'm not sure how happy she'd be with their life together. It would create a bit of an interesting parallel in that both Belle and Milah were looking for adventure or more out of life than non-Dark One Rumpel could give them. 

[Mari]

I actually don't think that losing the Dark One part will change Rumple that much, and he certainly will never come back to being the village coward. Too much has happened for that.

I do have a lot of other problems with Rumbelle, though - I think I've ranted about it on TWOP enough :)

You could always think of it as moving your archive of rant.    What problems are you having?

 

I'm not sure that Belle understands Rumpel's dark parts. Or maybe it's more that she willfully misunderstands his dark side. He flayed Robin alive multiple times, but all she chooses to remember is that he let him go in the end - mostly because he was trying to please Belle and not for any altruistic purpose - but Belle's on the he's a good man train, so she chooses not to see that as his motive. Then as she was wandering the woods with Neal, she was waxing poetic about how heroic and selfless he was to save all of Storybrooke by sacrificing himself. Neal was rather incredulous that she thinks he did it to save the town and straight up tells her that she know that's not right. He did it to save his family. Belle's need to come up with creative motives that make Rumpel's actions better than they really are leads me to believe that she's covering when she says she loves his dark side. If she truly was capable of loving it, she would accept the actions that come out of it and not need to romanticize them or rationalize them away. 

Honestly though, I don't think Belle would have ever fallen in love with the humble spinner he was. She may have felt compassion for him, but Belle is all about the adventure. Rumpel was, and I think still is, a homebody. As the Dark One, he has power and can still give her the thrill she craves (maybe that's what she's talking about when she says she loves his dark parts?) even if they aren't traveling the world or having adventures. Stripped of his power, he's just a random guy who runs a pawn shop in a very odd small town. It would put her right back where Disney Belle hated - a provincial life in a small town. She may still love the man, but I'm not sure how happy she'd be with their life together. It would create a bit of an interesting parallel in that both Belle and Milah were looking for adventure or more out of life than non-Dark One Rumpel could give them. 

But, if she has to lie to herself to be with him, and would not be content who he is at core, why does she love him?  What makes this "True Love"?

Because I understood it when she was in love with the person she saw as a good man fighting his own darkness.  I could even understand it if she enjoyed the chaos and destruction and was the type of person to enjoy it--like Spike and Drusilla in early Buffy--but I'm at a loss if she requires those dark parts, but has to lie to herself about what happens to others due to those dark parts.

So, if she wouldn't have been content with spinner Rumple, does that mean she'd have run away with Hook, too?  If he hadn't tried to kill her, I mean?

[FurryFury]

You could always think of it as moving your archive of rant.    What problems are you having?

 

Basically, that Belle isn't a character writers care about, just an appendage to Rumple, thus the unequal power dynamics and people having problems with understanding how her mind works - the writers themselves don't know! Also, I have a problem with the whole relationship trope when one person (99% of the time female) is insistent her love will redeem the bad guy, who continues being the bad guy. It makes her seem delusional and a hypocrite.

I also don't see any chemistry, and don't consider Emilie de Ravin a good actress, but that's beside the point. And, of course, I find Rumple way more fun with any other character. He was even better with Neal, for god's sake.

[Ariah]

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm probably are), but wasn't it once a big plot point that the True Love's Kiss between Belle and Rumple would destroy the Dark One Curse and make Rumple normal again? And he didn't want that, so he sent her away.

But now it seems the pair could kiss to their's heart content and the Dark One was still there.

Perhaps it was because of Lacey and Belle merging? That now she accepts his darkness and the True Love's Kiss won't cure it?

[Shanna Marie]

Perhaps it was because of Lacey and Belle merging? That now she accepts his darkness and the True Love's Kiss won't cure it?

But Belle was sleeping with Rumple pre-Lacey. I don't recall if they ever showed them actually kissing after their post-curse reunion, but they did show her waking up on one side of a big bed, and noticing that the other side that looked like it had been slept on was empty, so she got out of bed and went looking for him.

Is every kiss between a true love couple True Love's kiss? Or is there some circumstance or intent required? Maybe it's a one-shot deal, so the fact that Rumple stopped it from working means it will never work for them again. Or possibly his guard was down, so it started working, but now his guard is up, so it won't happen unless he chooses to let it. And then we have the ick of him not wanting to no longer be the Dark One, which makes Belle's belief in his good heart look even more deluded.

[FurryFury]

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm probably are), but wasn't it once a big plot point that the True Love's Kiss between Belle and Rumple would destroy the Dark One Curse and make Rumple normal again? And he didn't want that, so he sent her away.

But now it seems the pair could kiss to their's heart content and the Dark One was still there.

 

I think the fanon on this is a kiss between true loves doesn't necessarily mean a True Love's Kiss. There has to be an intention, or something.

Edited April 4, 2014 by FurryFury

[Mari]

Also, I have a problem with the whole relationship trope when one person (99% of the time female) is insistent her love will redeem the bad guy, who continues being the bad guy. It makes her seem delusional and a hypocrite.

 

Well, the way she's written she is delusional and a hypocritical.  I just can't figure out how delusional and hypocritical, and what exactly the writers are going for.

The writers can't be aiming for the deluded/hypocritical Belle.  What are they aiming for?  What do they think they're sending out?  

 

I think the fanon on this is a kiss between true loves doesn't necessarily mean a True Love's Kiss. There has to be an intention, or something.

Oh.  I didn't know that.  That's interesting.  True Love won't be curing Rumple any time soon, if that's the case.  Neither one of them seems to really want that.

[Blue Girl]

I'm not sure that Belle understands Rumpel's dark parts. Or maybe it's more that she willfully misunderstands his dark side.

I agree.  Maybe the writers are finally getting ready to address this and that is why they had Neal speak up?

I do like Emilie de Ravin as Belle, and think she's done her best with what she has been given but so far what she's been given, especially in S3.b, has felt even more inconsistent than usual.  She's in mourning in Storybrooke, cheerful in the Enchanted Forest, she's Belle, she's Lacey.  I think the writers may be causing trouble for themselves with this whole "we are both" thing, it sounds interesting on paper but it raises a lot of questions, especially with characters like Belle whose alternate identity is so much different than who she was.  And it kinda sucks if a Regina created identity for Belle from two curses ago might actually permanently change who she is.  It's not even like she wanted to be Lacey in the first place through a desire to explore her dark side, the whole persona was created to get back at Rumpy. 

 

[FurryFury]

The writers can't be aiming for the deluded/hypocritical Belle.  What are they aiming for?  What do they think they're sending out?

 

The character becoming a regular was pure fanservice, a reaction to fan response to "Skin Deep" (which was an okay ep, but hugely overrated, imho). It became clear immediately there are zero ideas what to do with her besides her relationship with Rumple. However, the pairing proved popular enough for the writers to be scared of killing her off (plus maybe Disney wouldn't want them to kill a recognizable princess character). Throughout all of s2, they were scrambling to give Belle things to do, but they weren't organic developments or even related to the plot (as bad as the plot was). In 3A, they did the smart thing and sidelined her for a time (we still got the unnecessary Rumple/Ghost!Belle parts, though). And now she's back to her prop role. She'll probably be used to save Rumple's mind and then fade back to being a prop.

[KAOS Agent]

I get the impression they'd be happier if they could just give Belle her happily ever after because they can't integrate her into the main group and they can't kill her off. The Belle/Rumpel relationship is the only thing she's got going on in the show. She has no connection to Regina, Henry, the Charmings or Emma other than that she's there and can apparently read. But there's no emotional resonance with her in relation to any of the main characters and no real way to give her any. Just as Regina classified Emma's relationship with Neal, Belle is Rumpel's "this person" to everyone else. I just want her to go away because her whole delusional relationship with Rumpel ruins the wonderful character that is Disney's Belle. Maybe they could Dr Who it up and make a Rumpel clone for Belle to run off with. 

[orza]

I also don't see any chemistry, and don't consider Emilie de Ravin a good actress, but that's beside the point. And, of course, I find Rumple way more fun with any other character. He was even better with Neal, for god's sake.

I don't think it's beside the point. Emilie de Ravin is a big part of the problem why Belle as a character is not working. Emilie doesn't have much range as an actor and when she does get something to do it is hit or miss whether she will do a decent job of it. In some scenes I can almost see the thought bubble over Robert Carlyle's head saying "Fuck! Do I have to do all the work here in our scenes together?"

If it's obvious to viewers it must certainly be obvious to the producers and everyone else involved in editing. I get the impression that they have more or less given up on her. Sometimes Emilie flubs a line or stumbles in her sky-high heels and they leave it in. Or maybe that was already the best take and they had to move on, mistakes be damned. They also don't take as much care with her lighting and camera angles as they do with Robert Carlyle's.

I don't see any reason why they can't kill Belle off. These characters are not the live-action version of the Disney characters and the show has a different target demographic than the audience for the kiddie cartoons. Maybe they will surprise us this season and Zelena will again order Rumple to kill Belle and this time he must comply. Losing both Bae and Belle to death within days of each other would have a profound effect on Rumple and would provide opportunity to take the character in an entirely new direction. That could be a potentially interesting storyline for Rumple. I think he works better as a character when he is a loner and dark grey figure with unclear motives who sometimes works with others when it suits his purposes.

[WalkSoftly]

 Someone on a forum said that they found the Alice/Cyrus pairing and their True Love/Happy Ending to be endearing and not tiresome or heavy-handed in comparison to Snowing. Now, I know Snow herself has suffered as a character during 3B, but I was never against/annoyed by their relationship being "perfect" or overcoming seemingly everything that's thrown at the couple. They're the Trope Codifiers for True Love and Happily Ever After in a Disney-owned fairytale show; it just seems, IMO and not trying to be pedantic, that if you don't like Snow White and Prince Charming of all people being unbelievably perfectly together, this is kind of the wrong story for you.

I don't have a problem with Snowing as a pair, per se, I have a problem that Snow. She still seems more like Mary Margaret than she seems like Snow. Charming seems to have found himself.. but I really don't like Mary Margaret as much as I liked Snow.



Alice remained clever and sharp witted with a clear purpose. Snow, it seems, was made dumb (to make the villains look 'better/more evil/more clever??') and she's never regained that season 1 wisdom, warmth, & charm.  Of course, we only had Alice for one season, so who knows what she would have been like after 3 seasons.

[tatterd]

Are Belle and Rumple officially true love?  I mean I can see it might be her side (and it's the only way I can cope with her level of delusion even if I still don't think it excuses it) but I'm not totally convinced about him.  Young Cora seemed a much better match, and outside of his love for Bae when he was a child I'm not sure Rumple is necessarily even capable of it.   I don't really see where they can go with Belle as a character, as other posters have said Neal had a lot more potential both as Rumple's conscience and with his interactions with other characters.  She could maybe become best friends with Mary Margaret as they seem to share certain annoying characteristics but that is not a pairing I would want to watch.  Sadly it doesn't sound like she's going anywhere anytime soon though 

[Sabs]

Are Belle and Rumple officially true love?

Yes.  In season one, their "true love" started to break the Dark One curse.

[myril]

(posted this pretty much on TWoP as well, if anyone wonders)

I find it puzzling, that true love is often seen as
a) something that can only happen once in a life time,
b) is something rather rare, not everyone finds it or might even be able to find it.

What a world of despair, and not hope, that would mean if it is any true. Only once a life time? What bad news for anyone who lost someone they truly loved: sorry, you had your ticket, now you have to live on the sentiment, no new chance for you. If it is something rare, that means many have no chance to ever experience it, because, sorry, tickets are only there for a small number and just got sold out, be satisfied just to love. Is that a world you're wishing for?

Not to mention it sometimes sounds like true love is some power of nature or fate, something that we just have to pick up, find, like some flower from the lawn, or that maybe might hit us, like raindrops, out of our control have to step out into the rain to be hit by drops, still it's not much of a control). While I might agree, that attraction and lust is something that is not fully of our own making, I think how we handle it is, it is at least somewhat in our control how we love people, even more so if (true) love is something that goes beyond our elemental needs and urges.

Plato distinguished between vulgar eros/love, the mere physical attraction to each other, to the beauty of someone else for physical pleasure and reproduction, fulfilling elemental needs and urges of our physical, "earthly" existence, the needs and urges of the flesh, and a devine eros/love, which takes us beyond, transcending our daily and earthly existence to embrace beauty in a higher form and sense, to recognize through the beauty of another the source of all beauty. It's a love inspiring mind and soul, leading to spirituality. Platonic love. It doesn't necessarily mean to forgo all physical experience and pleasure (it is often interpreted as that though), but it sure means to go beyond it. The Christian churches later (and not just them, but that's what I mostly grew up with) defined the desires and needs of the flesh as a lesser love, while the right love, the higher, true love is a spiritual one.

In medieval times so called Minnesang thrived (in some parts of the world), love songs describing a secret love to a mostly unattainable woman (leading ladies of a noble house, married to the lord of the manor, who the lover, knight in love probably swore allegiance to), also known as courtly love Courtly love as described in Minnesang doesn't exclude the desire of the flesh, but one's true love is not about fulfilling those desires but serving the admired and desired women in every other way possible. Minnesang describes love not between husband and wife, marriage was a practical thing and had little to do with romance as we understand it nowadays. Andreas Cappelanus wrote in the 12th century about love and talked about "pure love" fueled by mind and heart, allowing kisses and embraces but not the final act.

Traces of these ideas of love, of lesser and higher love, of courtly love, pure love, chivalry and romance we can find in our modern views and ideas of true love.

The ABC show Once Upon a Time is a show where the idea of true love is central. Like there is no precise definition of true love in general, this show has no precise definition either. But it looks to me that true love on this show is something not just happening, it is something that needs work, something that takes effort to make it happen. Ariel and Eric might have felt intense attraction and a sense of familiarity on first sight, but they still had to do something to get together and make it true love. Snow and Charming were drawn to each other instantly, but their love is not true because of that, but because they work on being together. Belle and Rumple are as well drawn to each other but Rumple wasn't ready to fully embrace it when Belle kissed him, he rejected true love for the moment and so the curse of the Dark One was not broken. Someone might be meant to be the soulmate aka true love of someone, but if it comes to make that true love happen between these two it is a matter of their own doing. And you can be very much in love with someone, but to make it true love it has to be answered, has to be created together. And true love is, different from popular images, not limited to romance. It is not limited to happen just once in a life time, to just one significant other, and it is not even a rare thing, just something you really have to work for to make it happen.

If you have to work for it to make it happen, it would make it harder to create more than one true love at a time, particular of the romance kind, but if sticking to that it is not limited to just one significant other in a lifetime, it might be possible to be in true love to more than one person at a time even. Mulan, Aurora and Phillip could have been interesting for exploring such an idea, but though TV might not shy away that much anymore from ideas of people being attracted to and in love with people of their gender, doubt that the idea of polyamory (not to be mistaken with polygamy) has yet a chance on mainstream TV screens.

It's a fantasy show, entertainment, something not known for profound philosophy and insights ;)

But what do you think: Is true love something that happens to people or more something that we create, make happen to us?

[FurryFury]

Personally, I don't really buy true love - I mean, I don't like this trope and find its general use quite uninspired. It's clear the writers of OUAT haven't put much thought to the rules of their world and its mythology, and that includes not only the very wonky magic, but true love as well. It shows, and it's annoying. 

 

As for why I don't like the trope - it reeks of predetermination, and thus invalidates something that I consider the centerpoint of any strong narrative: choice and agenda. True love is supposed to be fated, and even if it's not the "soulmate" scenario, it's clearly presented as something grand and majestic and beyond the characters and the minutia of their lives. I simply don't believe it it. Love is a tricky thing, but like any strong emotion, it's much more complex than this rather generalized and abstract ideal. Love can be very, very different and is just one aspect of a character. I just feel like many romance stories make the mistake on focusing on this concept rather than the characters themselves, as it should be. True love is a label that distracts the viewer from absorbing the complexities and intricacies that any relationship should have.

[Mari]

I'm actually really happy that Rumple faked giving his dagger to Belle, for a couple of reasons.

 

Giving Belle the actual dagger would mean that she had actual physical control over him.  Now, I have nothing against people in a relationship where there's submissive behavior--as long as both parties can say no.  With Belle having the dagger, Rumple couldn't.  That's seriously squicky--even if he chose to give her the dagger, he couldn't ever change his mind.

 

It's time for Belle to have a little reminder exposure to the person she keeps saying she loves all of, and making excuses for to other people.  If she loves all of him, even the parts from darkness, maybe she should see that darkness for herself.

 

I'd enjoy it more if I trusted the show to actually deal with it, instead of just making Belle mad for an episode and a half, but I figure with the summer hiatus coming up I have months to imagine that they'll actually handle this well.

[retrograde]

I'm hoping and I know it's probably stupid to do so. But I'm hoping it was more about Emma just wanting to be with her parents in the finale. All the conversations we're wanting them to have will happen in season 4 now. It's still going to be a building process but hopefully they start showing us those moments.

I hope so too, though I imagine Ginnifer at least may have a reduced workload while she looks after her newborn, so I do wonder how much Snow/Emma interaction we'll actually see in early season 4 -- especially when there is always so much PLOT PLOT PLOT to cram in. 

[Camera One]

Though I imagine Ginnifer at least may have a reduced workload while she looks after her newborn, so I do wonder how much Snow/Emma interaction we'll actually see in early season 4

 

Unfortunately 3B showed that the writers did not value giving Ginnifer scenes with Jennifer anymore, and they pretty much wasted Ginnifer's screentime on unrewarding scenes with Zelena and then propping Regina once again.  It is such a waste and even strange since the writers did put time into Snow and Emma for one and a half seasons, to the extent that they completely neglected Emma with David.  And then with the dawn of S3, at least half of Emma's time in S3 was with Hook, which left even less time with her parents after factoring in the time for PLOT PLOT PLOT.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

But the writing is agenda driven for the writers.  I hate what they've done with Emma/Mary Margaret.  It's like they feel like we should be happy with it.  Season 3 was all about Regina anyway. 

 

In any case, the parent/child relationship is just terribly written.

 

Snow finds out that her mother is "responsible" for Zelena being abandoned.  She just accepts it for fact, doesn't seek out Blue who knew her mother to see what happened.

 

Neal/Rumple.  I just really disliked Neal, but the whole reason for this show was Rumple trying to find his son with whom he had 3 scenes where Neal "forgave" him.  Then the quest was over. 

 

Rumple/Pan.  He killed his father, how does he feel about that?  The man sacrificed himself for the people he loved and then was brought back...Bueller?

 

Belle now has a relationship with Mo.  Really?  I was shocked when she said her father wishes them the best and then walked her to give her away.  Mo tried to send Belle over the town line so that she wouldn't remember Rumple.  He wanted to save her however misguided he was in trying to do so.

 

I'd like to see who Hook's father is, but he sounds like as much a scumbag as Malcolm and Cora who left their kids behind to give themselves their best chance.

 

I'm actually ok if the show focused on anything that's not Regina and her pain.

Edited June 4, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[Dani-Ellie]

It's like they feel like we should be happy with it.

 

That's precisely the issue I have. The kinds of problems the writing threw at Emma/Snow for the sake of plot are ones that, realistically, cannot be fixed without a lot of work. Snow's wish for a baby she could actually mother should have killed Emma, who has in fact been replaced by a new baby before (her first family). I mean, even if she didn't get that flash of "they're trying to replace me," she should have at least felt awful hearing that her mother wanted something she could never give her. I mean, Snow pretty much said that as lovely as her relationship with Emma was, it wasn't enough for her. That's gotta sting. Jen played that moment as hurt, but the writing never allowed Emma to address it with anyone. So, what, did she internalize it (realistically, most likely)? Get over it (which, realistically, I don't believe)? Snow surrendering to Neverland was another moment Jen played hurt (as Emma realistically would be) but again the writing never addressed it afterward.

 

So we end up with a  situation where we have no idea where the characters stand with each other. What should be does not match what is on screen. Based on what we've seen and what's been played, there's so much left up in the air but the writing makes it all seem like everyone's hunky-dory. So either a hell of a lot of character development is happening off-screen, which sucks, or the writers don't care about character development of anyone whose name doesn't start with an R, which also sucks. 

Edited June 4, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[KingOfHearts]

She could have taken him. Regina hasn't had custody since season 1 (rightfully so) and she's the one who relinquished it. 

 

I know that Regina is a bane for most on this forum, me excluded, but like it or not, Regina never lost legal custody of Henry. Especially since Henry wants to stay, Emma has no ground to take him. It would be a straight-up kidnapping. (Emma tried that in S1... didn't work so well)

 

Emma is busy with Hook and bounty hunting an ice queen. She won't be worrying about Henry like she did in 3B.

Edited June 4, 2014 by KingOfHearts