S03.E03: Open House

[panthergirl13]

OK, I've read through everyone's comments and I think I'm the only person who interpreted Clark's response to Martha's proposal about the foster kid as "Hm....now THERE'S a way to recruit a young person who is not my real child, who has no better prospects in life and no parents who will mourn him/her if things go sour..."

 

Too dark?

[Umbelina]

Cool idea, but honestly, I think it's very doubtful that Clark's "marriage" to Martha would stand up to any kind of background check to be a foster parent.  Frankly, I doubt their background would stand up to Paige ever infiltrating something very top secret in the USA either.  Even in the eighties, background checks were thorough.  I was (randomly) interviewed just because I was a coworker (one of hundreds, and I didn't know the guy very well) that was applying for a job with a security agency.  His parents, fiance, fiance's parents, siblings, bosses, friends were vetted extremely well as well.

[sistermagpie]

OK, I've read through everyone's comments and I think I'm the only person who interpreted Clark's response to Martha's proposal about the foster kid as "Hm....now THERE'S a way to recruit a young person who is not my real child, who has no better prospects in life and no parents who will mourn him/her if things go sour..."

 

 

Maybe a good way to recruit kids, but it's not like Clark or Philip are particularly interested in recruiting kids anyway. If he gave the idea to the KGB it would be another idea, not a replacement for their current ideas about 2nd generation illegals. And as others have said, no Illegals couples are going to invite the government in to do background checks on them to be foster parents or make check-up visits. 

 

According to some people who had security clearance jobs Paige would do fine with her parents since they've been steady business owners in the US for decades.

 

Where did you hear this was done in real life?  That would be a fascinating story, and I want to read it!

 

 

 

Just every story that's ever come out about actual Illegals who had children who were being groomed just said the parents were bringing them into it.

 

Other stuff I'm putting in the All Episodes thread...

[sistermagpie]

I'd settle for one link.  I've read a ton of spy stuff, kind of a favorite of mine, and I've never heard about embedded spies bringing their children into it, let alone it being a thing with the KBG or any intelligence service.  Sounds fascinating.

 

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444097904577537044185191340

"A Russian spy ring busted in the U.S. two years ago planned to recruit members' children to become agents, and one had already agreed to his parents' request, according to current and former U.S. officials.

...

His parents revealed their double life to him well before their arrest, according to current and former officials, whose knowledge of the discussion was based on surveillance by the Federal Bureau of Investigation that included bugging suspects' homes. The officials said the parents also told their son they wanted him to follow in their footsteps.

 

He agreed, said the officials. At the end of the discussion with his parents, according to one person familiar with the surveillance, the young man stood up and saluted "Mother Russia." He also agreed to travel to Russia to begin formal espionage training, officials said."

 

Edited February 15, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Chaos Theory]

We all know turning Paige will never work but that is really the point. The point is that despite everything Elizabeth and Phillip raised a couple of Americans. That is the irony of their lives. Paige will not turn because she does not fit the model of someone turnable: angry, greedy, or just plain disenfranchised. What makes the story and the show interesting is the Centre and its tunnel vision pushing an unattainable project. What also makes it interesting is the division inside the Jennings family. Elizabeth wants to turn Paige in large part because it would make them closer at least in her mind and it would give her validation from someone she actually might want it from. Which is why she allows herself to believe the conveient lie that it will be Paige's choice and she will have a safe desk job. Philip is more realistic but he also knows that he ultimately has no choice either. None of them do. That is also what makes the show interesting. The illusion of choice.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[maraleia]

I've moved the Paige and Jared recruitment posts to the new thread here http://forums.previously.tv/topic/22145-recruit-your-children-and-other-center-directives/#entry826719

Title courtesy of CarpeDiem54.

[RedHawk]

Love the 80s DC references in this one - Don Beyer Volvo!

 

 

Enjoyed that shoutout. Made up for the fact that they drove over a bridge that simply doesn't exist and never did in the DC metro area. 

 

Did anyone else notice how the national anthem was playing on TV when Elizabeth finally returned home and she and Phillip embraced? 

 

I also liked Phillip pointing out to Elizabeth the irony that the alcohol he had given her to drink before the tooth extraction was a fine bottle of Irish single-malt scotch from Stan Beeman.

Edited February 15, 2015 by RedHawk

[Umbelina]

I've moved the Paige and Jared recruitment posts to the new thread here http://forums.previously.tv/topic/22145-recruit-your-children-and-other-center-directives/#entry826719

Title courtesy of CarpeDiem54.

I'm a bit confused.

 

Obviously the major storyline for this season is the recruitment of Paige.  Do you want no further discussion of that in episode threads?  The errors made in recruiting Jared influence both the KGB's handling of this recruitment, and Elizabeth and Philip's reactions to it as well.  Or at the very least, increase their fears of both the wisdom of Center, and the possible outcomes for Paige, and for them, should she freak out and expose them, or hate them.

 

So you want all discussion of that storyline to go in the new thread? 

[maraleia]

I'm a bit confused.

 

Obviously the major storyline for this season is the recruitment of Paige.  Do you want no further discussion of that in episode threads?  The errors made in recruiting Jared influence both the KGB's handling of this recruitment, and Elizabeth and Philip's reactions to it as well.  Or at the very least, increase their fears of both the wisdom of Center, and the possible outcomes for Paige, and for them, should she freak out and expose them, or hate them.

 

So you want all discussion of that storyline to go in the new thread? 

It's fine if you talk about Paige's story in the episode threads if there is something new that was discussed during that particular episode. The posts I moved were general in nature and I thought that since this was going to be a big story point it should have its own thread.

[Sienna]

I agree that the tooth pulling scene could be completely plausible.

If you're shot, or have an open artery, the KGB will find an off-books surgeon and an empty warehouse for you (provided you're a high performing agent worth the trouble). Anything less than that, rub some dirt on it and think of the motherland.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Sienna

[Hecate7]

Does the KGB have undercover agents in multiple cities?  I wonder if they have one east coast (or even US) surgeon, who flies to a city for an emergency.  

 

Maybe it's because I grew up in the 70s but pulling teeth with whatever was pretty commonplace, including string tied to door knobs.  The dirtiest thing involved in any case is probably the peoples' hands.  

It was actually a lot cheaper and easier to get a dentist in the seventies, than it is in the US today.

[Chaos Theory]

Henry would be easier to turn then Paige at this point.  Paige is more self assured and actually has a sense of who she is at this point in her life.  Henry is in the early stages of puberty and if a woman (like say Mrs. Beeman) touches his winky and whispers sweet nothings in his ear (which I think was how The Centre got Jared to murder his family) said woman could get him to do almost anything.   Hell this has been true in real life by the way.  Doesn't mean he would do it well.  Which is probably why the Jared thing ended badly.  

Edited February 15, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Hecate7]

Henry would be easier to turn then Paige at this point.  Paige is more self assured and actually has a sense of who she is at this point in her life.  Henry is in the early stages of puberty and if a woman (like say Mrs. Beeman) touches his winky and whispers sweet nothings in his ear (which I think was how The Centre got Jared to murder his family) said woman could get him to do almost anything.   Hell this has been true in real life by the way.  Doesn't mean he would do it well.  Which is probably why the Jared thing ended badly.  

Paige would be sooooo easy to turn!

 

All they would have to do is place the right good-looking, idealistic-seeming male agent in her class, youth group, church, etc.  Girls are very susceptible. Paige was willing to lay down her life for that minister. The right agent could push those same buttons and get Paige to do absolutely anything for him. Philip knows this. He's been trained in manipulating women. Someone could easily do to Paige what he's doing to Martha. They'd need a different look and a different script, but it's the same basic routine.

[lucindabelle]

I would love to see Martha with a real man not a disguise.

[sistermagpie]

Henry would be easier to turn then Paige at this point.  Paige is more self assured and actually has a sense of who she is at this point in her life.  Henry is in the early stages of puberty and if a woman (like say Mrs. Beeman) touches his winky and whispers sweet nothings in his ear (which I think was how The Centre got Jared to murder his family) said woman could get him to do almost anything.   Hell this has been true in real life by the way.  Doesn't mean he would do it well.  Which is probably why the Jared thing ended badly.

 

 

Paige would be sooooo easy to turn!

All they would have to do is place the right good-looking, idealistic-seeming male agent in her class, youth group, church, etc.  Girls are very susceptible. Paige was willing to lay down her life for that minister. The right agent could push those same buttons and get Paige to do absolutely anything for him. Philip knows this. He's been trained in manipulating women. Someone could easily do to Paige what he's doing to Martha. They'd need a different look and a different script, but it's the same basic routine.

 

 

Answering in the Centre directives thread...

[stillshimpy]

I promise I will take any further discussion into the Paige Recruitment thread.  But super briefly, that WSJ goes on to say that the account is being disputed and challenged as being "a bunch of crap" because of how risky it would have been for Foley's parents to reveal anything to him.  It really is interesting that the plot might have been based on a similar "this was the plan" but that in real life, apparently it sort of ended disastrously and was sort of a vague "there were even plans to...." because that is sort of up there with "There were even plans to take down the Capitalist Running Dog Machine that is the United States..."  It's sort of vague but I guess time will tell on this one. 

 

Speaking of time telling, one thing that does give me pause is how obvious it is that Paige knows something is up and odd with her parents anyway.  

 

I think one of the conceits of this show, and one I am far more willing to just let go as being the price admission for the story, is that Phillip and Elizabeth run all over town "in disguise" with a variety of personas as they do their work and they apparently have a lot of disposable cars.  That last doesn't surprise me, it does just mean they have a reliable network of support, but the problem with the disguises is that whereas Matthew Rhys has an "every man" quality about him that might make it feasible that he's just the sort of guy people don't look too closely at, Keri Russel is beautiful and the sort of woman that would get a lot of attention, even in those dreadful wigs that have really taken a turn for Bangs Across America.  She's still a super slim, very pretty woman with a great figure and that would draw the eye of a lot people.  The real estate agent would almost certainly be able to connect Elizabeth to the Very Interested in the Sunroom person, but I don't think there's any reason the FBI would be pursuing that.  

 

So the FBI hasn't put it together that there was any connection to the Open House, correct?  We think Elizabeth just picked up a tail because they noticed the car pass by twice.  Because otherwise it seems like it would the real estate agent might be able to describe various people.  The guy with the canceled checks and the impending divorce would also presumably remember the guy practically standing inside the closet in his office.  So I think they don't realize there was any connection?  Is that right? 

 

I'm assuming there will be a payoff for Gadd looking dead into Elizabeth's face before she cold-cocked him rather than kill him (a move that surprised me, Elizabeth rarely makes the sparing choice) but I'm at least a little bit with the poster above: I never really feel a lot of anxiety or tension in the chase scenes or the "Oh no, they might be about to get caught!"  because....they aren't going to get caught.  At least not like that.  

 

I do wonder how insanely fired Stan would be if they ever are.  

 

One thing that I did appreciate the show revisiting was Stan's background with the Supremacist group, since I think we're to take it that had a lot to do with the wrecking of Stan's life in nearly every capacity.  I have wondered  what in the world that would have been like for Stan at home.  Clearly he couldn't reveal to Sandra , "Hi honey, I'm home from my day of pretending to be a super industrial strength bigot.  What's for dinner? Want me to tell you the new slurs I learned today?"  but how soul-crushing would it be to have to espouse that horrible crap and not be able to talk to anyone about it? 

 

When Stan was just stupidly besotted by Nina and only dialed it back long enough to not commit treason he was hugely unsympathetic for me.  It helps in tolerating what a smoking shell of a man Stan so frequently is to be reminded, "Oh yeah, that's right.  They gave him a job that would destroy anyone's ability to emotionally connect to anyone, what with the hatred-steeping he'd do every day."  

 

I've just now remembered that Martha had a semi-relationship with Stan's last partner.  No wonder she was giving Agent Time Efficiency (name, name, anyone have a name?  I don't even think that's funny, I just have no idea what is name is and it's that or Agent Facial Hair) a less than delighted look at his interest in her.  I'd put it down to simply being secretly devoted to Clark, but there might be more to it.  

 

I would love to see Martha with a real man not a disguise.

 

Seriously.  

[Totale]

I would love to see Martha with a real man not a disguise.

 

She should live so long.

[Clanstarling]

Maybe it's just me, but the thing that really bugs me in this show is that in the basement of secrets, they don't have a curtain over the window. Open curtains at night always surprise me, I don't understand why anyone would like strangers passing by to be able to take a peek. To each his own, but you'd think spies would be careful to maintain privacy - at least where they do their sketchy deeds.

 

I kept my eyes closed during the bargain basement dentistry.

 

I think they'd use Hans to seduce the teenage daughter of the CIA guy before they'd use him to recruit Paige. As others have said, he's here for a reason, this seems the most imminent one.

Edited February 15, 2015 by clanstarling

[Dev F]

OK, I've read through everyone's comments and I think I'm the only person who interpreted Clark's response to Martha's proposal about the foster kid as "Hm....now THERE'S a way to recruit a young person who is not my real child, who has no better prospects in life and no parents who will mourn him/her if things go sour..."

 

I'll admit I definitely had that thought on first viewing, but on rewatch I think they were going for something more character-based than tradecraft-based. Basically, it's a moment when Philip's fake marriage gives him insight into his real one: Clark is upset with Martha for pushing some cockamamie plan to bring a child into their world against his express wishes, but he suddenly turns sympathetic when Martha reveals the very human longing behind the idea: "We have so much. You don't see the value of sharing that with someone who doesn't have anything? Someone who could learn and grow and have a home?"

 

I think what Philip realizes is, that's exactly what Elizabeth wants for Paige. Heck, he himself was just thrown for a loop when his daughter characterized her parents' relationship as some special bond that she has no part of. So perhaps Martha makes him realize that Elizabeth's impulse to bring Paige into what they have is not purely selfish.

 

Philip certainly seems to have rethought the matter when he meets with Gabriel again at the end of the episode. In their first scene together in the teaser, Philip seemed to treat his handler as a sympathetic ear, and Elizabeth as the one who's being unreasonable. In their scene at the end of the episode, Philip has transferred his anger back onto Gabriel and the Center -- perhaps realizing that they're the ones to blame for exploiting Elizabeth's noble but foolhardy maternal impulse.

 

I think one of the conceits of this show, and one I am far more willing to just let go as being the price admission for the story, is that Phillip and Elizabeth run all over town "in disguise" with a variety of personas as they do their work and they apparently have a lot of disposable cars.  That last doesn't surprise me, it does just mean they have a reliable network of support, but the problem with the disguises is that whereas Matthew Rhys has an "every man" quality about him that might make it feasible that he's just the sort of guy people don't look too closely at, Keri Russel is beautiful and the sort of woman that would get a lot of attention, even in those dreadful wigs that have really taken a turn for Bangs Across America.  She's still a super slim, very pretty woman with a great figure and that would draw the eye of a lot people.

 

A very pretty woman with a prominent facial mole. It's definitely a place where we're being asked to suspend our disbelief.

 

So the FBI hasn't put it together that there was any connection to the Open House, correct?  We think Elizabeth just picked up a tail because they noticed the car pass by twice.  Because otherwise it seems like it would the real estate agent might be able to describe various people. 

 

I believe that's correct. There's a rather nonspecific time cut between when they plant the bug at the open house and when they're driving around listening to the signal, but I believe it's supposed to be a while later.

 

Certainly, if they suspected Philip of having been in the CIA guy's house with access to his mobile phone, he wouldn't be lugging it around with him, bug intact, even after Elizabeth got away..

 

Agent Time Efficiency (name, name, anyone have a name?  I don't even think that's funny, I just have no idea what is name is and it's that or Agent Facial Hair)

 

Agent Aderholt. Who was apparently involved in the operation to turn a real-life KGB illegal, Rudolf Herrmann. ("I'm telling you, this is what happened with Herrmann. They said to follow him for the next year and he'll lead you to something.") Who was also apparently grooming his son to be a deep-cover operative.

[BW Manilowe]

I promise I will take any further discussion into the Paige Recruitment thread. But super briefly, that WSJ goes on to say that the account is being disputed and challenged as being "a bunch of crap" because of how risky it would have been for Foley's parents to reveal anything to him. It really is interesting that the plot might have been based on a similar "this was the plan" but that in real life, apparently it sort of ended disastrously and was sort of a vague "there were even plans to...." because that is sort of up there with "There were even plans to take down the Capitalist Running Dog Machine that is the United States..." It's sort of vague but I guess time will tell on this one.

Speaking of time telling, one thing that does give me pause is how obvious it is that Paige knows something is up and odd with her parents anyway.

I think one of the conceits of this show, and one I am far more willing to just let go as being the price admission for the story, is that Phillip and Elizabeth run all over town "in disguise" with a variety of personas as they do their work and they apparently have a lot of disposable cars. That last doesn't surprise me, it does just mean they have a reliable network of support, but the problem with the disguises is that whereas Matthew Rhys has an "every man" quality about him that might make it feasible that he's just the sort of guy people don't look too closely at, Keri Russel is beautiful and the sort of woman that would get a lot of attention, even in those dreadful wigs that have really taken a turn for Bangs Across America. She's still a super slim, very pretty woman with a great figure and that would draw the eye of a lot people. The real estate agent would almost certainly be able to connect Elizabeth to the Very Interested in the Sunroom person, but I don't think there's any reason the FBI would be pursuing that.

So the FBI hasn't put it together that there was any connection to the Open House, correct? We think Elizabeth just picked up a tail because they noticed the car pass by twice. Because otherwise it seems like it would the real estate agent might be able to describe various people. The guy with the canceled checks and the impending divorce would also presumably remember the guy practically standing inside the closet in his office. So I think they don't realize there was any connection? Is that right?

I'm assuming there will be a payoff for Gadd looking dead into Elizabeth's face before she cold-cocked him rather than kill him (a move that surprised me, Elizabeth rarely makes the sparing choice) but I'm at least a little bit with the poster above: I never really feel a lot of anxiety or tension in the chase scenes or the "Oh no, they might be about to get caught!" because....they aren't going to get caught. At least not like that.

I do wonder how insanely fired Stan would be if they ever are.

One thing that I did appreciate the show revisiting was Stan's background with the Supremacist group, since I think we're to take it that had a lot to do with the wrecking of Stan's life in nearly every capacity. I have wondered what in the world that would have been like for Stan at home. Clearly he couldn't reveal to Sandra , "Hi honey, I'm home from my day of pretending to be a super industrial strength bigot. What's for dinner? Want me to tell you the new slurs I learned today?" but how soul-crushing would it be to have to espouse that horrible crap and not be able to talk to anyone about it?

When Stan was just stupidly besotted by Nina and only dialed it back long enough to not commit treason he was hugely unsympathetic for me. It helps in tolerating what a smoking shell of a man Stan so frequently is to be reminded, "Oh yeah, that's right. They gave him a job that would destroy anyone's ability to emotionally connect to anyone, what with the hatred-steeping he'd do every day."

I've just now remembered that Martha had a semi-relationship with Stan's last partner. No wonder she was giving Agent Time Efficiency (name, name, anyone have a name? I don't even think that's funny, I just have no idea what is name is and it's that or Agent Facial Hair) a less than delighted look at his interest in her. I'd put it down to simply being secretly devoted to Clark, but there might be more to it.

Seriously.

I'm not sure how you meant your comment about Stan & his previous assignment involving the White Supremacists, so forgive me if my comment doesn't jibe with your intended meaning. I'm just going based on my interpretation from reading it.

Anyway... You wrote as if Stan was going home to Sandra everyday during that assignment. As I remember things from the introduction of Stan's character in the Pilot (& maybe Sandra's, to a certain extent), Stan was actually embedded undercover 24/7 with whatever the group was (KKK or whatever); he wasn't just working the case from 9-5 every day & going home afterwards. Unless I'm forgetting something else, like the Beemans had just moved into the neighborhood, I think that's why it was such a surprise/shock to Phillip & Elizabeth when they learned their neighbor was an FBI Agent.

They hadn't even met Sandra before he came home &, therefore, hadn't learned from her what Stan's line of work was. As I remember, they didn't meet the Beemans until after Stan came home & they learned he worked for the FBI. If they hadn't learned he was FBI, & decided/realized they needed to keep an eye on him as best they could (since his employer's activities could affect their activities), I'm not sure they'd have made the effort to get to know the Beemans, preferring to keep to themselves as much as possible.

[sistermagpie]

The Beemans had definitely just mover in in the pilot . Stan ended his undercover stint and then he and the family moved to Washington DC and he started working in counterintelligence. He still wasn't going home every night while undercover though.

[stillshimpy]

Unless I'm forgetting something else, like the Beemans had just moved into the neighborhood, I think that's why it was such a surprise/shock to Phillip & Elizabeth when they learned their neighbor was an FBI Agen

 

They had just moved in, the way everyone met was Elizabeth and Phillip bringing over cookies or brownies or some other "Welcome Neighbor and Fellow American! We too see everything Red, White and Blue, Praise Cheezits, or something."  

 

Wow, if he wasn't going home at all, that's even worse for him than I thought it was.  Being able to keep huge parts of yourself locked away and safe from that kind of nonstop hateful bullshit would be such a huge challenge.  

 

ETA: Also, thank you, Dev F, for the life of me I could not conjure that man's name.  

Edited February 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[BW Manilowe]

They had just moved in, the way everyone met was Elizabeth and Phillip bringing over cookies or brownies or some other "Welcome Neighbor and Fellow American! We too see everything Red, White and Blue, Praise Cheezits, or something."

Wow, if he wasn't going home at all, that's even worse for him than I thought it was. Being able to keep huge parts of yourself locked away and safe from that kind of nonstop hateful bullshit would be such a huge challenge.

Stan definitely was embedded, or whatever, & not going home nightly (or at all) during his pre-Pilot mission involving the White Supremacists. I only saw the old eps/see the current eps on FX, but I remember he mentioned at first about having come back from a deep undercover mission involving a White Supremacist group. Just that much, no real details. If you ask me, that's part of what led to the demise of his & Sandra's marriage--though not necessarily 'cause he couldn't open up to her about things. It seems he was supposed to have always been gone on those "deep undercover" missions before he was reassigned to Counterintelligence in DC & I think, over time, he & Sandra just apparently grew apart & it started to show once Stan got to DC (I'm not positive, but I think Sandra even says to Elizabeth at some point that she feels more like a single parent to her son than he has both parents).

[rozen]

I think the reactions to the tooth pulling kind of beautifully demonstrates the american/russian divide the show is trying to portray. We're horrified, they probably consider it luck that they even had good whiskey to dull the pain first. That whole scene just reiterates that the both of them might as well be aliens. It makes the idea of using Paige in even a limited capacity seem even more comical. 

 

People pull their teeth with stuff like that all the time. And she got introduced to a car hood about eight times, so no doubt every tooth on that side of her face is a bit loose. 

 

Gabriel's constant reiteration that Paige will have a "choice" should have been red flags for Elizabeth if she wasn't in denial. It can only be a "choice" if it is presented to her by someone other than her parents. They are simply waiting for Elizabeth to prime Paige sufficiently so they can send in an external agent (maybe someone older, debonair, and with a hot accent?) to flip her. I wouldn't be surprised if The Center plans to have Philip and Elizabeth never even tell Paige who they really are. Then they would pat themselves on the back, having avoided another Jared situation. Elizabeth thinks turning Paige is going to be some sort of sweet union between the two of them, imo she's silly in thinking The Center would allow her that. 

 

I guess I'm easily entertained because I found the whole car chase thrilling and was on the edge of my seat. I knew she would survive, but if she would get out of it with all her arms and legs still attached...I wasn't sure. 

 

Glad to see Stan's gears are starting to work again. The analyst easily rattling off magazine subscription rates was some sweet foreshadowing. What influences the hearts and minds of weak Americans more than their popular media?

 

I liked the Elizabeth/Hans interaction to show how far her marriage has come. Back when they were simply cordial, she was having a torrid love affair with hot idealistic dude in Philly(?), laying awake at night chattering about The Cause. Now, hot idealistic dude hits on her, and her response is to go home and show her ass, like "hey dude, I still got it." And then tell the hot young thing that she's involved. The romance, it burns!

Edited February 16, 2015 by rozen

[stillshimpy]

guess I'm easily entertained because I found the whole car chase thrilling and was on the edge of my seat. I knew she would survive, but if she would get out of it with all her arms and legs still attached...I wasn't sure.

 

Whereas I didn't find the scenes tense, I was really fascinated by how they got her out of there.  

[sistermagpie]

People pull their teeth with stuff like that all the time. And she got introduced to a car hood about eight times, so no doubt every tooth on that side of her face is a bit loose.

 

 

Or not so much Russian/American but poor vs. middle class. As noted, there are plenty of people in the US who pull their own teeth--and the USSR had dentists that would have used some anesthetic! But even Philip, for all his praise of his daughter being really smart and strong, can't help but see her as completely soft about a thousand things.

 

Gabriel's constant reiteration that Paige will have a "choice" should have been red flags for Elizabeth if she wasn't in denial. It can only be a "choice" if it is presented to her by someone other than her parents. They are simply waiting for Elizabeth to prime Paige sufficiently so they can send in an external agent (maybe someone older, debonair, and with a hot accent?) to flip her.

 

 

Still don't understand ignoring the thing that's being highlighted over and over as the central question of the season (Elizabeth and Philip telling Paige who they are) for a more complicated plan of recruiting a tenth grader with sexy agents. Why can't Gabriel just be saying that Paige will not be forced to work for the Centre? Iow, she has the same choice (or lack of choice) Elizabeth and Philip did. 

Edited February 17, 2015 by sistermagpie

[stillshimpy]

Why can't Gabriel just be saying that Paige will not be forced to work for the Centre? Iow, she has the same choice (or lack of choice) Elizabeth and Philip did.

 

What Claudia said was before Phillip went to Arkady and laid down some parental law, which Gabriel has said they listened to.  So there are reasons to believe that the plan is not being enacted until they can get Phillip on board.  

 

In the last scene of this episode, Phillip goes to Gabriel again and it's clear he isn't on board with this, still.  I don't know what the plan currently is, but until they can get Phillip to either agree or not freak the hell out on them -- because Phillip is already a hugely successful agent for them, they do have reason to not incite his ire if they can help it -- it doesn't look like they are proceeding with any plan.  Just reporting progress on where Paige is or isn't in the process.  

 

Also, the entire "okay...and if she says 'No' what then?"  Why would she say 'No'?  Because she's loyal to her country?  What does that imply for what she would then do about knowing her parents are Soviet spies?  It's not like saying No to a trip to Six Flags where you just say "no" and don't go.  There are implications that go with saying 'No' because it isn't just that Paige might not want to ("roller coasters make me throw up!")  it's that she might find it reprehensible.  Treasonous.  Bad.   When Phillip and Elizabeth had a choice to say Yay or Nay, they were in Russia.  They would have just gone on with their lives as good Soviets and whatever that entailed, presumably with less favor being shown to their families and themselves as being true Soviets.  

 

So that's why everyone fixated on the "She has a choice?  So how's that work?" of it all and Gabriel keeps insisting that she will have a choice.  It's just such a different ball of wax than deciding not to go to your parents Alma Mater.  Taking a pass carries with it an implication of a negative judgment of what they do and that carries with it the possibility of being jailed, possibly executed.   

 

ETA: My husband hadn't seen this episode until last night, so I just watched it again and Gabriel is very clear at the end: Paige will have a choice.  Now, it's possible that all Gabriel means by that is, "She will have a choice to do this, or know that she has completely destroyed her parents and end up in foster care."  or whatever constitutes choice in Gabriel's mind. 

 

But it seems such a leap that the Center would be saying, "She can say No....and we'll just trust that she won't turn you all in!"  because it would be like finding out your parents are murderers.  Because essentially that's what they are in addition to spies.  Some people might not feel compelled to turn their parents in to the law for that, but a lot would.  

Edited February 16, 2015 by stillshimpy

[sistermagpie]

In the last scene of this episode, Phillip goes to Gabriel again and it's clear he isn't on board with this, still.  I don't know what the plan currently is, but until they can get Phillip to either agree or not freak the hell out on them -- because Phillip is already a hugely successful agent for them, they do have reason to not incite his ire if they can help it -- it doesn't look like they are proceeding with any plan.  Just reporting progress on where Paige is or isn't in the process.

 

 

The plan that they originally gave to Philip--which he didn't contradict by what he said to Arkady--was that Philip and Elizabeth were to tell Paige who they really were, then get her ready, then try to recruit her. So Gabriel's can be trying to get Philip to do what he was told to do.

 

But it seems such a leap that the Center would be saying, "She can say No....and we'll just trust that she won't turn you all in!"  because it would be like finding out your parents are murderers.

 

 

It's the choice they took with Jared, and the choice they've explicitly told Philip and Elizabeth to take with Paige. I see all the same problems with it that you, but they've done it once and announced they're doing it again. The relationship between the parents and the children seems to be hugely central to the show, so I expect them to steer into that skid rather than take the safer route around it.

 

It would go really dark, though, if Elizabeth or the Centre sent this Hans guy after Paige as a parallel to Philip presumably going after the babysitter daughter of the CIA guy. Philip would be turning himself into a sexual predator of children and Elizabeth would be turning her daughter into the victim of one--so both of them crossing the line into outright predators of kids.

Edited February 16, 2015 by sistermagpie

[stillshimpy]

Answering in the Recruitment thread.  

[rubyred]

It's so fascinating to me that, despite the cynicism and paranoia and tradecraft, Elizabeth still has this streak of naivete about recruiting Paige. It's not a bell that can be un-rung, as Phillip is well aware. And yet she has this optimism that "knowing who she is" will transform Paige's attitudes and make her amenable to the Soviet cause. All Phillip can think about is all the dirty stuff they have to do, including the sex because we've seen it's started to bother him about E's honeypot roles. He doesn't believe that Centre won't ask for an inch and demand a mile, which to me is a more realistic assessment.

 

 It reminds me of the ep when Reagan was shot, and Al Haig shot his mouth off about being "in control." Elizabeth and Nina et al were bracing for a coup, and Phillip was like, srlsy? You've lived here how long and you think this is a coup? I was Paige's age when that happened (and pretty oblivious to politics in general) but even I remember the razzing Haig took for that statement.

 

It's as though Elizabeth thinks of their cause as some kind of irresistible lure because it was for her. I think she also thinks that Paige will have the same warm, paternal/avuncular relationship with her handler that Elizabeth has with Gabriel. But Paige doesn't need a father figure, she has a father.

[rue721]

Gabriel is very clear at the end: Paige will have a choice.  Now, it's possible that all Gabriel means by that is, "She will have a choice to do this, or know that she has completely destroyed her parents and end up in foster care."  or whatever constitutes choice in Gabriel's mind.

 

Wouldn't they just pack Paige off to the USSR if she said no to being a sleeper agent in the US? I think that the deal would likely be that Paige can either say yes now, or go back to Russia to get re-educated (and say yes later). 

 

Even though Paige was born and raised in the US, the KGB/etc clearly think of her as a Soviet citizen.

[stillshimpy]

Wouldn't they just pack Paige off to the USSR if she said no to being a sleeper agent in the US? I think that the deal would likely be that Paige can either say yes now, or go back to Russia to get re-educated (and say yes later).

 

That's possible.  I don't think that would satisfy Phillip on any level.  I don't think Phillip wants his daughter to have to live in the USSR for starters, but also, whatever Gabriel means by "she has a choice" it hasn't been defined.  Now, "say yes, or lose your entire life as you know it and be shipped off to the place that is likely the reason you are saying 'no' because you view it as the Evil Empire" ....is not a real choice.  It's coercion at the very least.  

 

So that's not a choice in the way I think Phillip means choice, but since they sort of maddeningly haven't actually gone to the "What choice would she have, Gabriel? What the hell do you mean by that?"  place , we're sort of left to speculate.  Although it would seem clear that Phillip isn't interpreting it in the "or she can go to Russia" way, because again, that's not a choice.  "Do this or lose your entire lif as you know it" is a threat, not a choice.  

 

It might be what Gabriel means, but we don't know one way or the other and I don't think Phillip is interpreting Gabriel's declaration that way because ...he would lose his shit if he did...because that's the same as threatening him with taking Paige away.  

[sistermagpie]

It's so fascinating to me that, despite the cynicism and paranoia and tradecraft, Elizabeth still has this streak of naivete about recruiting Paige. It's not a bell that can be un-rung, as Phillip is well aware. And yet she has this optimism that "knowing who she is" will transform Paige's attitudes and make her amenable to the Soviet cause. All Phillip can think about is all the dirty stuff they have to do, including the sex because we've seen it's started to bother him about E's honeypot roles. He doesn't believe that Centre won't ask for an inch and demand a mile, which to me is a more realistic assessment.

 

 

Answering in the Centre Directives thread...

[RedHawk]

...he suddenly turns sympathetic when Martha reveals the very human longing behind the idea: "We have so much. You don't see the value of sharing that with someone who doesn't have anything? Someone who could learn and grow and have a home?"

I think what Philip realizes is, that's exactly what Elizabeth wants for Paige.

I thought of it as Phillip realizing that's what he has in Paige and Henry, and then understanding Martha's urge/need is legitimate and he's denying her something he (secretly) already has and something that means a great deal to him.

 

He softened toward her, but that still doesn't mean she's getting a foster child! Maybe he'll get her a puppy.

[RedHawk]

Was the TV interviewer who was talking to the Soviet defector that guy Charles who is secretly a Soviet sympathizer?

[Umbelina]

Paige living for an extended time in the USSR would certainly red flag any future sensitive jobs they might want her to get here though.  Face it, if she freaks, they either take her back to Russia, or shoot her in the head.  She would be too big of a risk to their very embedded team, her mom and dad.  More likely a "car accident" than a bullet though.

 

I know that in the late eighties at least that major surgery was being performed in the Ukraine without even aspirin available.  It happened to my friend's dad, who, of course, died on the table.  Some kind of heart surgery (and his dad was a heart surgeon!)  So pulling a tooth?  Seriously, no biggie.

[PinkRibbons]

Was the TV interviewer who was talking to the Soviet defector that guy Charles who is secretly a Soviet sympathizer?

 

Yes, definitely. He has a distinctive way of speaking. I wonder if he and Zinaida are in cahoots?

[sistermagpie]

Yes, definitely. He has a distinctive way of speaking. I wonder if he and Zinaida are in cahoots?

 

 

I like that they could be or not. Presumably the FBI set up the interview and Charles is a legitimate reporter--the one they'd go to because he's allegedly this right wing pro-America guy. He presumably isn't working with Zinaida since Philip is his handler and Philip doesn't seem to have anything to do with Zinaida, but if she's really a spy he'd be happy to help her. If he's not in on it, it's still just a nice bit of worldbuilding. This guy doesn't only work for Philip, he's got a real career.

[gwhh]

I don't think Paige would be easy to turn.  She made of stern stuff inside.  She may look like your typical soft American teenager.  But she got P&E blood and genes running through her veins!  They are made of sterner stuff!!

 

Phillip does not like it that E have to use her body to help with there cause.  I don't think she likes it either, but accept its as part of the job.  But you can see they both enjoy each other in the bedroom.  I think Elizabeth like Phillip being with other woman, it gets him rev up for her!

 

I think Phillip would go crazy if Paige was recruited and ask to use her body for the cause.  It would make his anti bible rant look like a Sunday school picnic. He a dad first and spy second. 

 

http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/ksjs92uh774g22oisz97t1770ki3hhs2

 

I was thinking of all the levels this show is hiding stuff at.

 

They are married couple, but are not.

They are loyal America, but are not.

They are small business owners, but are not.

They love each other, but don't!

Etc,

 

They only thing that they REALLY are mom & a dad!  Thant its!  That its an interesting fact!

 

    

 

Paige would be sooooo easy to turn!

 

All they would have to do is place the right good-looking, idealistic-seeming male agent in her class, youth group, church, etc.  Girls are very susceptible. Paige was willing to lay down her life for that minister. The right agent could push those same buttons and get Paige to do absolutely anything for him. Philip knows this. He's been trained in manipulating women. Someone could easily do to Paige what he's doing to Martha. They'd need a different look and a different script, but it's the same basic routine.

 

It's so fascinating to me that, despite the cynicism and paranoia and tradecraft, Elizabeth still has this streak of naivete about recruiting Paige. It's not a bell that can be un-rung, as Phillip is well aware. And yet she has this optimism that "knowing who she is" will transform Paige's attitudes and make her amenable to the Soviet cause. All Phillip can think about is all the dirty stuff they have to do, including the sex because we've seen it's started to bother him about E's honeypot roles. He doesn't believe that Centre won't ask for an inch and demand a mile, which to me is a more realistic assessment.

Edited February 17, 2015 by gwhh

[Hecate7]

I think Phillip is much more realistic about it than Elizabeth.

 

And let's not forget that Paige is very lonely, and wants a relationship of her own. She sees how her parents seem to always look out for each other, and have each other's backs, and in her opinion it's because that relationship trumps everything to them, including the kids. She's going to be very disappointed someday when she finds out it really was work, not love, making her parents so unavailable to her.

[fastiller]

Thomas Schlamme, the ep Director...

Don't you mean Tommy!Schlamme!?  (Yes, I did mean to add all that emphasis.  If I could have the text flashing I would.)

Edited February 18, 2015 by fastiller

[BW Manilowe]

Don't you mean Tommy!Sclamme!? (Yes, I did mean to add all that emphasis. If I could have the text flashing I would.)

Yeah, that's who I meant... Perhaps best known as Aaron Sorkin's partner in creativity, in The West Wing & other projects, & as the husband of Oscar, Emmy, & who knows what else, -winning actress Christine Lahti (who most recently played Steve McGarrett's supposedly long-dead Mother, Doris, in S3 of the current version of Hawaii Five-0). By the way, you forgot the H in his last name.

[Milburn Stone]

I think they were being followed because the CIA agent already had a team monitoring him as per some protocol, and the team noticed that Philip and Elizabeth drove by twice.

 

The way I figured it, they put one car on them at first, just to see. If Philip and Elizabeth drove right home or to work (neither of which they could do), the follower would note the information for future agency followup and return to his post. But if Philip and Elizabeth drove endlessly in serpentine fashion all over the place--which no innocent couple would do--he'd radio to put a whole lot more cars on their tail.

[fastiller]

Yeah, that's who I meant...

I figured - I knew Schlamme (thanks for catching the missing 'h') from TWW.  I just wanted to make sure that he was referred to properly.  It's as if the "!s" are mandatory when speaking his name.

[Inquisitionist]

I didn't find this episode boring at all. In fact, it was the first episode this season that really compelled me from beginning to end. It's rare for an episode of series TV to have not one but two standout setpieces: the gripping low-speed car chase, and the horrifying but somehow amazingly sexy tooth-pulling scene.

 

I've watched it twice now (I put my "real time" watching on hold while I waited for my husband to watch S1 and S2 online -- we're now watching S3 together).  I've read several reviews of this episode and most of this thread, but I cannot figure out HOW the resolution of the slow-speed car chase came about.  Who engineered the crash that provided the opportunity for Elizabeth to escape? 

 

I think this show may need better sound engineering.  Vital information seems to occur in conversations that are difficult for me to hear without racheting up the volume to levels are that too high for the rest of the action.  Or maybe I'm just getting old.  :-)

[sistermagpie]

I've read several reviews of this episode and most of this thread, but I cannot figure out HOW the resolution of the slow-speed car chase came about.  Who engineered the crash that provided the opportunity for Elizabeth to escape?

 

 

The phone call Philip made was arranging the crash. Part of the arrangement was tossing the walkie talkie into her car so she'd know when to be prepared to get out and run.

[Inquisitionist]

Thanks, I thought the call had just arranged the pick-up.  I'll have to rewatch this (yet again!) with the sound turned up.  It still seems like quite a lot for the Russian network to coordinate on such short notice.

[Dev F]

I rewatched the sequence and it's actually very carefully plotted, though certainly difficult to track. The way it works is this: Philip and Elizabeth realize they're being tailed while driving around Frederick, Maryland. There's a day-to-night cut and they're still driving around, but now Philip has worked out a route on their map. He traces it to an intersection in neighboring Walkersville, Maryland, and provides Elizabeth with the location and a time: "10:45, Maple Ave. and Green Street."

 

He then bails out, goes to a pay phone, and provides the same time and location to his phone contact, along with a coded message that seems to specifically call for an accident to take out Elizabeth's tail: "My friend hit some heavy traffic on the way home. There is a two-car accident at Maple and Green, and it won't be cleared until 10:45." When Elizabeth arrives at Maple and Green at the appointed time, one agent is waiting on foot to toss her a radio, and another is in a nearby car to broadcast directions to another intersection where the accident can be staged. (And, yes, Maple and Green is a real intersection in Walkersville, per Google Maps, and the radio immediately tells Elizabeth to "turn right onto Frederick," which is the next cross street.)

 

Presumably what Philip was working out on the map was at what place and time the KGB could arrange an intercept team and meet up with Elizabeth. Given that they'd been driving around since before sunset and the meet-up wasn't until quarter to eleven, it seems like there was probably time for them to arrange something, especially given the extent of the KGB network in the reality of the show.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Dev F

[Chaos Theory]

For someone who is supposed to be as lonely as Martha she gets alot of male suitors.  

People keep mentioning a facial mark on Kerri Russell's face and I still can't see it and I have been looking for it so if I was asked to describe any facial marks I would say "didn't see any" then again I know people who notice ever tick and scratch and hair out of place on a person so....  

The Russian scene subtitles haven't been coming up this season and it is annoying.   

The car chase scene was very well done.  

[Roseanna]

The scene where Philip took away Elizabet's two teeth was awful to watch. But wouldn't she also need new ones?

And they really had to have an American dentist before they became to the US. The Russians had often gold in their teeth and also otherwise, they used different methods. In detective novels, a body's nationality could often be in 1990ies identified according to his or her teeth.