S01.E06: Out, Damned Spot

February 12, 2015

I don't think the kid is Jamal's. Jamal is Lucious Lyon's kid, so the Mom would come forward for money when she found out she was pregnant. But she came forward when she heard about his single. That smells of seeing an opportunity to get a payoff to avoid publicity before paternity is verified. What she hasn't put together is Cookie's indiscriminate belief that any publicity is good publicity. She was convinced she would be let in if security just told someone she was there so its not like she Jamal was some stranger she didn't know until she saw him on TV.

I don't know why, but I find it even ickier that Hakeem calls his lover Mom on the phone than in bed. Or maybe it makes the in bed part worse.

Syndicate · February 12, 2015

I loved the first scene- the only trouble with Cookie being so strong is that any time Anika tries to challenge her at all, she just looks pathetic and annoying. Which I guess is the point, but it does make me say "Move along, show" any time Anika does stuff- "The ring is a copy of the ring Richard Burton gave Elizabeth Taylor" shut up, no one cares. I hope Porsha becomes a double agent. And Taraji is smoking. Smo-king.

All three of the sons are weenies- Jamal is the least weenie, but still. Hakeem is like a 12 year old- he reminds me a bit of Chris Brown, petulant, entitled, marginally talented etc, etc. And Andre wasn't threatening at all when talking about slitting throats.

I like hearing Courtney Love growl again and I liked her interactions with Cookie. I suspect Lucious' concierge doctor is going to turn into a Conrad Murray situation.

I love that Raven's name is Olivia- please say, "I know my body" at some point. And the love child thing is funny because that was a rumour about 5 or 6 years ago.

And Lola's hair is glorious.

ETA plus plus for using Lil' Kim's the Jump Off- I forgot about that song and it's pretty classic Timbaland. Also, Hakeem's song is pretty straight forward, ie not a metaphor, Anika.

Responding to the part of your post about Andre not seeming threatening about slitting Vernon's throat? See, I thought he was effectively threatening. I think there's a tendency to think that just because an angry or displeased person isn't yelling or throwing things, then they are somehow seen as not to be taken seriously. The fact that Andre promised murder in such a calm, cool, and collected tone of voice made him seem even more chilling to me. I believed every word he said about slitting Uncle Vernon's throat.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Syndicate

Happytobehere · February 12, 2015

Andre and Vernon plotting together and Vernon knowing about Andre's condition was established on an earlier episode. It wasn't a reveal, it was a revisit.

So Empire is propping up the utter mess that U.S. Courtney Love. Even if you thought that you might need name value as a new show (before the show blew up of course) CL isn't the way to go, cause does she have fans anymore? I think she simply has trainwreck watchers, and that's for her personal life, they wouldn't nnaturally follow her to a show.

I think Jamal better not forget who he is and what he is supposed to really be about - the music. I can't stand Hakeem and I thought he really was reaching out to his brother and Jamal was unnecessarily harsh (although I agreewith the comments about his treatment of Cookie). I mean Cookie doesn't think he's just like Luscious for no reason.

So I guess Raven "I'm not black" Symone can get black for a paycheck.

Taraji continues to be the complete and utter bomb.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Happytobehere

Ohwell · February 13, 2015

So I guess Raven "I'm not black" Symone can get black for a paycheck.

I must say, I wasn't too thrilled to see her pop up, and it's not just because of the "I'm not African American" stuff; I just never liked her as an actress. I hope she doesn't stick around too long.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Ohwell

jenrising · February 13, 2015

And even if a kid wasn't involved, I think the reveal that Jamal at least once slept with a woman completely undermines and goes against the character presented thus far. The whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth, both as a television viewer in general and for admittedly personal reasons.

If the reveal had come at the beginning of the episode, I'd agree with you. But when Jamal froze and then pretended to be single after all his protestations before about coming out, it kind of makes sense. For the previous episodes we've seen him struggling to become successful on his own terms, and being himself. But that's a journey, not a decision. I can easily see, especially given the way he was treated by his father, pre-show Jamal trying to be was Lucious wanted, even if it was subconscious. It's terrible and sad, but I don't think it undermines Jamal. I think it could underscore how far he's come towards being independent and proud of who he is, unwilling to hide or pretend just to please his father or the world. He can stumble along that path, but it doesn't mean he isn't still trying.

All that said, I don't think that kid will end up being his. It's way more soapy.

40Love · February 13, 2015

I agree jenrising... I can see Lucius encouraging, pressuring Jamal to date/sleep with a girl... And Jamal going there in a misguided attempt to please his dad.

I do know some gay men who have slept with at least one woman in their lifetime, which doesn't negate the fact that they are indeed gay.

Unfortunately, it will no doubt bolster Lucius' original argument that being gay is a choice.

rozen · February 13, 2015

Responding to the part of your post about Andre not seeming threatening about slitting Vernon's throat? See, I thought he was effectively threatening. I think there's a tendency to think that just because an angry or displeased person isn't yelling or throwing things, then they are somehow seen as not to be taken seriously. The fact that Andre promised murder in such a calm, cool, and collected tone of voice made him seem even more chilling to me. I believed every word he said about slitting Uncle Vernon's throat.

Totes agree. He is constantly undermined and underestimated by every member of his family, but he is easily the most dangerous. Vernon is probably the best successor to Empire, actually (maybe that's what he was alluding to). But his biggest pitfall is that he's got dirt all over him from covering for Lucious, and Andre knows it.

Michael is not on Jamal's level now. They were perfectly fine as directionless new money socialites, living off whatever was tossed at them. But Cookie is actively trying to build Jamal into a person who would reject and despise such a decision. Michael will have to change along with him, or he will indeed be left behind. There is no appearance that Michael is contributing to rent, furniture, anything really. He simply exists. The culinary world is super saturated, even with great training he would have a hard time having a comparable career to Jamal's without connections. Which Jamal has in spades.

Besides, it's just facts that if Jamal blows up he will have to perform, do tours, etc, which literally means less time for Michael. Unless he wants to be like that one NBA wife who literally travels to every game with her husband.

Denying he even had an SO is pretty shitty of Jamal. Even if they were closeted before, I can see Michael having hope of being acknowledged now that Jamal is on his "I'm a maaaaaaan, I stand on my own two feet" shtick.

I fully expect Porsha to go tell Cookie, then go back and take whatever Annika's offer is, and ride into the sunset on her new pile of cash. I suspect Porsha is one of those characters who remains stalwart in the face of temptation...because she knows Cookie would talk to her mom/parental figure, who would then snatch her bald.

I almost felt bad for Hakeem. He's only going to hate Cookie more because Jamal is no longer his lapdog due to her support. She's taken his only real family away from him when he needs it most. A agree with Jamal though, a raging heartbreak song will make him look super weak.

Edited February 13, 2015 by rozen

Raja · February 13, 2015

I just listened to the conversation again and Vernon asked his friend if he had someone who had a murder they could not beat. Meaning this is someone who was already on his way to jail so he was just adding to his current sentence. Now his family gets some money since he was going in anyway. Probably not a bad proposition for the criminal.

That is the first thing I caught and could only think of Wee-bay from the Barksdale organization on The Wire cleaning the rest of his friends records by confessing to all the open homicides they did since he was going away for life anyway. In that case they took care of his son and baby momma until Marlo took them out. And even then I was l left with the impression she was still drawing a pension from what was left of that empire.

william0102 · February 13, 2015

The one thing I don't get, is that we finally get some character info on Michael, him being in culinary school- and then he starts getting upset after one word from Cookie? I'm sorry, but do you know how confident/conceited, headstrong and bullheaded chef types are? And I already assumed he had to be somewhat hard because he's spanish and it's New York. So, I'm not sure how I feel about him suddenly getting upset, especially after all the times we've seen him not react to Lucious' "taunts".

Scarlett45 · February 13, 2015

The one thing I don't get, is that we finally get some character info on Michael, him being in culinary school- and then he starts getting upset after one word from Cookie? I'm sorry, but do you know how confident/conceited, headstrong and bullheaded chef types are? And I already assumed he had to be somewhat hard because he's spanish and it's New York. So, I'm not sure how I feel about him suddenly getting upset, especially after all the times we've seen him not react to Lucious' "taunts".

Perhaps because Cookie is confirming what he feels in his heart? Sometimes the truth has the hardest sting.

ZaldamoWilder · February 13, 2015

Mm-mm-mm! Taraji Muhfuckin’ Henson! She is gold and had better be nom’d at next year’s Emmys. When that heathen took off her coat I howled! Body is bodacious!

Hey Derek Luke, Gumby called...he wants his part back! Once Cookie rides the baloney pony again I’d prefer it be Cuba Gooding’s, as his character really seemed to be into her.

(You stupid Ohwell, LMAO!)

I think because MY looks so old is why I had my Aunt Esther fish-eye on him and turns out I was right, I never trusted him from the beginning.

Yeah, Andre/Rhonda/Vernon are dangerous, with Rhonda leading the pack.

Hell, I screamed it out loud! Nasty shit like that is my biggest pet peeve.

How much ya’ll wanna bet that Naomi Campbell will rock that outfit courtesy of Hakeem in a later eppy?

I like all of the songs I’ve heard so far…the tracks that stand out are ‘Drip Drop’ (I got Mr. Stud goin’ drip-drop-drip-drip-drip-drop! Um, okay. Maybe singing this song at 50 ain't cute so I'll stop!) and the hardcore track Hakeem made up in the studio. Jamal’s aren’t bad either, especially ‘Keep Your Money’.

Yup, and judging by the ‘this season’ scenes it looks like they will share a kiss.

Shit like that as well as your name Zaldamo Wilder is why I love you so!

Neurochick and Smart Kitty, ya’ll sisters? Your pics look just alike, lol.

1. Hey Derek Luke, Gumby called...he wants his part back!

Please report directly to the corner.

2. Not sure if you should be encouraging the foolishness lol, but regardless, love you too!

3. Neurochick and Smart Kitty, ya’ll sisters? Your pics look just alike, lol.

a. guh, who's SmartKitty? LMAO!!! hee. Can't decide which name I like better

b. until you said this, I PROMISE, I thought Neurochick's pic was a Beyonce avatar.

c. ergo, both of ya'll look like Mrs. Carter. Wow.

Timetoread · February 13, 2015

So Empire is propping up the utter mess that U.S. Courtney Love. Even if you thought that you might need name value as a new show (before the show blew up of course) CL isn't the way to go, cause does she have fans anymore? I think she simply has trainwreck watchers, and that's for her personal life, they wouldn't nnaturally follow her to a show.

I don't think that Courtney was cast because she brings a fan base with her. I do think, however, that she still has enough name recognition for viewers to watch out of curiosity to see what she is going to bring to the table - particularly on a show like this where she is seemingly out of place. She's been a trainwreck all her life, but one thing Americans always love to see is a righteous comeback or a dramatic reinvention. Those of us who remember know that Courtney wasn't a bad actress at all. In fact her problem has always been herself. I think many would enjoy watching her pull herself out of the muck with a star turn on the hottest new show on the air.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Timetoread

Racj82 · February 13, 2015

Oh I've been right here since the beginning. The show just didn't really kick off FOR ME until last night. Varying mileage and all that?

Of course. I was partially joking. I didn't need the click though. I do think the series has been getting better week to week but them comes with fleshing out the characters. It's a big old night time soap but I'm glad I care about the characters too.

DollEyes · February 13, 2015

Re Hakeem, he took a page out of Jamal's playbook and used his pain to his advantage. Instead of wallowing in stoned self-pity because of Tiana and Camilla's ignoring him, Hakeem vented his rage in song to great effect, judging by the initial response. Speaking of responses, I think that Dr. Freud if he were still alive, would have a field day with Hakeem's mommy issues after seeing Cookie in lingerie. Vernon's knowing Andre's secret won't bode well for either one of them, I'm guessing, especially if they both end up killing each other.

Re Jamal, while his career is important to him, he should have been much better prepared to answer Sway's question about his private life. Jamal could have answered with something like, "I'm much too busy with my music" or "I would much rather discuss my music." While I usually heart Jamal and Cookie, this time I'm Team Michael. For one thing, contrary to Cookie's opinion, there's nothing wrong with being a chef. Cooking is a noble profession. To quote Sesame Street, "Everybody Eats." The best chefs run kitchens, own restaurants, teach at culinary schools and write cookbooks. Some of them even have their own TV shows. There's even a network dedicated to food and a channel dedicated to cooking. (see what I did there?) Given that Cookie's previous career choice landed her behind bars for almost 20 years, she's got no business dissing Michael's ambitions. At least being a chef's legal; dealing coke, otoh, not so much. The culinary arts are a tough field, but it can also be lucrative if one is talented, ambitious and has the right connections. I don't believe that Michael's a "professional student"; he's studying to be a professional chef. Big difference. I think that Michael's either working his way through school or he's got student loans and/or a scholarship to pay for it. Instead of sweating Michael for his intended occupation, Cookie should be thankful that Jamal has (or had) someone who loves him, someone who was there for Jamal when he only played coffeehouses and who left a cushy pad to live in a shithole with Jamal when he didn't have to. When it comes to Jamal's love life, what should matter most to Cookie is loyalty, not salary. As any ex-con knows, loyalty is one of the most important self-preservation tools in prison. it's not only crucial, it can even save lives, in and out of prison. Jamal's next lover might have fatter pockets than Michael, but if he's not with Jamal for the right reasons, then they shouldn't be together in the first place.

As for Jamal, while he's dealt with fame for most of his life, it's been because he's Lucius' son, but now that he's coming into his own as an artist, fame is already changing him for the worst, mostly at Michael's expense. Jamal was right to put Hakeem on blast for taking him and his talent for granted, but what he did to/about Michael was wrong. Getting his career started should be important to Jamal, but since he's much more used to the spotlight than Michael, he should have known what to expect from the media and prepared himself and Michael for it. Being in a relationship with a celebrity's never easy, straight or gay, but Jamal should have seen Sway's question coming. Even if Jamal was on the downlow, given who his father is, it probably wouldn't stay that way for long anyway. Between the tabloids, the gossip blogs and any asshole with a camera phone, nowadays any move a celebrity makes is/could be news. Jamal swore from the start that he wanted to be an artist on his own terms, but when it came to his first test of dealing with the media, Jamal not only failed, he hurt Michael in the process. Jamal didn't have to out himself then and there, but he didn't have to treat Michael like a dirty little secret either. As for Jamal's alleged child and his so-called "baby mama" Olivia (hee), where's Maury Povich when we need him? I'll believe that's Jamal's child when I see the DNA test-or since the Lyons are rich and famous, several DNA tests. Olivia and the kid's "just happening" to show up not only isn't a coincidence, if Lucius was responsible, I wouldn't be surprised.

Edited February 14, 2015 by DollEyes

Malbec · February 13, 2015

As for Michael, we don't know much of his story, but it seems as if has has been living off of Jamal and by association Lucious. He's in his twenties and seems to have no job, no college degree and is talking about enrolling "in the future" in cooking school. Meanwhile, he's encouraging Jamal in that "I'm an artist who doesn't have to make money for a living...because it's all about the art..." ennui. Jamal needs someone around to encourage him to hustle, not retreat into his head because his first album flopped and he's too afraid to keep pushing. I think that's why Jamal's personality and relationships are going to change (especially with Hakeem). With Cookie propping up his confidence, that passiveness he had going on is going to fade away. If Michael is upset that Jamal's priorities have shifted, it's only going to get worse, and he needs to prepare.

Sure, but as Judge Judy likes to say, "you picked 'em." By that I mean, Jamal's been seemingly content with what Michael brought to the relationship up to this point, including the support of his "I'm a real artist, I don't hustle" mentality. And, Michael followed without protest when Jamal moved to the poorer apartment, so at least he seems committed enough to follow through and accept the consequences of Jamal not selling out.

Basically, I don't really think either Michael or Jamal is a bad person in this scenario. It's a sad fact that people change and relationships don't always survive that. But it doesn't always mean that the person who changed (or the one who refused to change) is doing something wrong.

Vixenstud · February 13, 2015

To quote Sesame Street, "Everybody Eats."

No you didn't go there! I loved that song on SS back in the day, lol.

Mozelle · February 13, 2015

#cookiecakes = is trending like a mug. (<--- no copyright infringement, I can't afford a case!)

That's 'cause Sway ain't got all the answers!

See, that's why you play too much.

Hahahaha!! That's hilarious ... oh wait, you were serious?

Why was that all I was thinking from the moment Sway showed up on camera?!

All this talk about Cookie's cakes got me thinking of Rihanna's and Breezy's song. Does Lucious want that cake cake cake cake cake?

Like some of the Derek Luke fans, I'm so mad at that hairstyle they got him wearing--looking like an extra from Harlem Nights. What is with this show and these old timey men's hairstyles? First they had Lucious in a damn conk in the premiere, now they do this to Derek Luke. Sigh.

phoenics · February 14, 2015

Well at least they got rid of that hair from the pilot - Lucious' hair looks so much better now.

I don't mind Derek's hair actually. High top fades and 80s-90s styles are kinda on trend right now, so in that context it works fine.

vibeology · February 14, 2015

This episode, and to a lesser degree the last, was already doing a really good job of adding layers to Jamal. And not knowing whether or not a show will hit or not does not give producers an excuse to throw any and everything at the wall. This is something I would have expected out of Days of our Lives circa 2005, not a primetime show in 2015. And even if a kid wasn't involved, I think the reveal that Jamal at least once slept with a woman completely undermines and goes against the character presented thus far. The whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth, both as a television viewer in general and for admittedly personal reasons.

Lots of gay people have slept with the opposite sex at some point in their lives. Jamal having slept with one woman or many women at some point isn't that out there. Here he has his father who is a womanizer as his main male role model. He feels pressure form his family and his community to be straight. Him sleeping with Olivia in an effort to try to be straight or because he wasn't sure how he felt is very much in line with a common experience in the gay community.

Yeah, Andre/Rhonda/Vernon are dangerous, with Rhonda leading the pack.

How is Rhonda worse than Andre who threatened to kill Vernon or Vernon who assaulted Andre? I get she's devious, but so far her actions have been the least offensive of this trio.

Vixenstud · February 14, 2015

Just a hunch I'm getting from her...along with Andre/Vernon, I wouldn't want to be on her bad side at all, bitch got too many secrets.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Vixenstud

Gigi43 · February 14, 2015

I watched episodes 3-6 last night a week after watching the first two which really didn't grab me... but these four turned into a marathon when I had only intended to watch one. Since the last one is the freshest in my mind, and my favorite so far, I figured it's best to make it my first one to post about...

Cookie dropping that coat is now my new favorite TV moment in a really long time. It's weird, Person of Interest is my show so I've frequently found myself just thinking about how Cookie is just about as opposite as Carter as you can get (btw, the female fed being named Carter doesn't help during those scenes), but that crazyness is my turning point for being All About Cookie. Taraji is magic.

I don't agree with Cookie of course about what Michael is doing not being "up there" enough as a life choice for Jamal, but, I do appreciate that Cookie is acting like many parents of straight children on TV (and in real life) do, thinking their childs Significant Other isn't worthy of them because of what they do not because of their gender.

The timeline on the show confuses me a little, as does just exactly how some of the songs are suppose to fit into the storyline beyond going along with whatever the plot is. Keep Your Money is about to be released, I got that, but what about that Good Enough song? Maybe I'm thinking too much about it, but like Luscious said, "Keep Your Money" is three and a half minutes of Jamal telling him to kiss his ass, and since everyone knows he's the son of Luscious, won't the public pick up on that? Jamal skirted around the girlfriend question, but what about when the media starts to ask why exactly is there a riff with him and his father? He really should be preparing for that or holding off opening that door so widely.

Andre creeped me out telling Vernon he'll slit his throat. Kudos to the actor though, I think too often actors rely too much on yelling/being outlandish getting their anger across, but cold, quiet menacing is something else entirely and at least too me more effective if being pulled off right, which it was here.

I now though want to see Vernon end up with the whole thing, but giving Cookie her fair share. Cookie and Annika destroying Luscious, Hakeem (though I can't stand him) and Jamal going after Andre for pitting them against each other, and Vernon sliding in after it all goes down is my ideal way for it to happen.

I never liked Raven, so I really hope she gets a payoff for the kid and goes away.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Gigi43

phoenics · February 15, 2015

I think the good enough song was from Jamal's first album.

LolaRuns · February 15, 2015

I was really surprised that Cookie didn't try to veto Hakeem's song on Tiana's behalf since she's managing Tiana. Since Tiana is also Empire's property, Hakeem sinking her stock would be bad for Empire/Cookie could argue that it makes Empire more money if Tiana/Hakeem keep up the charade/spin some made up "it's totally a threesome relationship" thing.

SimoneS · February 15, 2015

Basically, I don't really think either Michael or Jamal is a bad person in this scenario. It's a sad fact that people change and relationships don't always survive that. But it doesn't always mean that the person who changed (or the one who refused to change) is doing something wrong.

Exactly. Jamal getting serious about his music means spending hours in the studio, doing a ton of publicity, and going on tour. He simply is not going to be able to spend as much time with Michael and he will have to break commitments to Michael. This is why Cookie told Michael to find his own thing to do.

Also, if Jamal's goal is to take over Empire, I can see him morphing into ruthless violent Lucious over the next couple of years. The way that he punched Hakeem and refused to help him is all Lucious. Can Michael live this version of Jamal. I doubt it.

CofCinci · February 15, 2015

The way that he punched Hakeem and refused to help him is all Lucious

Jamal is more Lucious than father and son are willing to admit.

jhlipton · February 16, 2015

How does the title fit with the episode?

I was dreading Courtney Love, but I really liked her in this capacity. And for the record, I still thin she killed Cobain.

I've never liked Love, and she did ok. And, yeah, she may not have pulled the trigger, but she's the one that got him down.

Courtney Love did better than I expected. She's a trainwreck IRL, but she's also a talented actress, as she proves in The People Vs. Larry Flynt.

She played "drowned girl" so well.

ETA: Ms TP Henson and Ms JP Smith are both FIIIIIIIIINE! Both are about the same age too (Ms Henson is 44 and Ms Smith is 43), And they got it goin' on!

Edited February 16, 2015 by jhlipton

editorgrrl · February 16, 2015

How does the title fit with the episode?

Well, "Out, damned spot" is what Lady Macbeth said after she felt guilty for putting a hit on someone. But Cookie's hit wasn't mentioned at all this episode.

And Jamal didn't come out. So I'm stumped.

From the "No Fear Shakespeare" version of Macbeth (Act 5, Scene 1):

Lady Macbeth (rubbing her hands)
Come out, damned spot! Out, I command you! One, two. OK, it’s time to do it now.—Hell is murky!—Nonsense, my lord, nonsense! You are a soldier, and yet you are afraid? Why should we be scared, when no one can lay the guilt upon us?—But who would have thought the old man would have had so much blood in him?

tmelange · February 17, 2015

The only thing I can think the title refers to is the reveal to Vernon about Lucious killing Bunkie. I think Lucious feels guilty about that.

Edited February 17, 2015 by tmelange

darkestboy · March 26, 2015

On the plus side, this episode finally gave a lot more on Michael than his previous episodes have done. On the flip side, this episode really did spell the beginning of the end for him and Jamal as well.

Between Jamal concealing his identity, Cookie telling Michael that fame changes people and the whole Olivia/Lola can of worms, I guess Jamal and Michael will split up pretty soon.

I like that Jamal is rising up on the scene but not that he's putting himself in the closet as a result of it though. Also getting some Dana/Lara parallels as well.

Cookie was also great this week with Elle. I wasn't sure of Courtney Love but I do think she does work well enough within the show.

I like Hakeem most of the time but he needs to get over his Cookie/Tiana issues and blooming fast (especially with the latter).

Things got interesting during those scenes with Andre and Vernon. Vernon is going to be a massive problem for Lucious down the road isn't he?

Sly of Anika trying to poach Porscha from Cookie as well. Lucious using experimental drugs probably won't help him either, 9/10

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