S03.E12: Uprising

[blixie]

 

it would have allowed an actual conversation about it.

 

Um, actual conversations are not allowed in Season 3 of Arrow.

[Chaser]

I forgot to mention how eye-rolling Wildcat turned out to be. This is the guy who trains the Black Canary. He got taken out by a Slum Lord. 

 

This whole episode was underwhelming.

[quarks]

I think what was supposed to have happened was he went to the foundry to suit up while everyone was in the van (MG said as much on Tumblr). What doesn't quite make sense to me is that his costume was back on the dummy when he went to say hello to everyone, so at what point could it have gotten there? Did everyone leave again at some point and then come back? Show....

 

 

In a last ditch effort to keep Team Flash from locking her away in a tiny cell covered with one way mirrors, Peek-A-Boo popped over to Arrow to help Oliver out with his costume woes, teleporting in and out of the Arrow Cave. Hey, every other villain gets into the Cave. 

[tv echo]

Digging the knife in deeper - here's the highs and lows of the O/F reunion scene...

THE HIGH:

THE LOW:

Edited February 5, 2015 by tv echo

[Carrie Ann]

I think what was supposed to have happened was he went to the foundry to suit up while everyone was in the van (MG said as much on Tumblr). What doesn't quite make sense to me is that his costume was back on the dummy when he went to say hello to everyone, so at what point could it have gotten there? Did everyone leave again at some point and then come back? Show....

 

I think--and this is stretching believability but here it is--Oliver made it back to the foundry before everyone else did, since they had to regroup and get in the van and maybe drive through crowded streets to get back. So he changed there and then left to go to Thea's and then came back. I can sort of buy it. But, uh, yeah, all those scenes happened in the wrong order, because:

 

How many problems would be solved if Oliver went to Team Arrow before speaking to Malcolm? Even if Oliver chooses to work with Malcolm over the objections, it would have allowed an actual conversation about it. Felicity could still leave angry, Oliver could still chase her down but it would have flowed so much better. If this was S2, I bet that's how it would have happened.

 

YES to this. You know, I was reading the comments (I know, I know) on another site, and wow, yeah, there is a lot of Felicity hate going on out there. But as I was reading some of the complaints, I could understand where it's coming from. Not that I think they're right, but that I can see the root of why Felicity would be annoying some people right now. And it's because in S1 and S2, she was often shown to oppose Oliver and they had it out over things several times. This has always been her character. The difference is that in past seasons, it was a discussion. And that discussion wasn't always resolved in one scene, but it was resolved by the end of the episode. In fact, that's a huge element of their relationship in Season 2. Oliver makes Felicity his EA, she gets righteously angry, by the end of the episode he's emotionally defeated and she gives him the one cup of coffee. There are loads of examples of this.

 

But this season, Felicity has to be out of sync with or opposed to Oliver (and others, like Ray and Roy come to mind) in almost every episode, and it's often not resolved. The fight in 302 is never resolved (bc it's the conflict of the season, I get it), their coldness in 303 never thaws, they're basically battling each other for all of 307 without ever actually talking, 305 and 308 are the only exceptions, really. So that, in addition to the fact that it's apparently a mandate that Felicity cries in every episode, is making her come across to some viewers*, who want her to be happy and funny and fiesty, as a self-righteous wet blanket. I just think we've sort of hit a tipping point for those viewers' tolerance for hitting those same notes over and over. (*But it's also worth noting that at least in the case of this one site, many of the most vocal critics were dudes, and some of the bristling was about how Felicity is supposed to be superhero support and she's not staying in her lane and going along with what the big men want to do. Sexism is alive and well.)

Edited February 5, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[quarks]

Yeah. I noted that over in the Felicity thread, but I think one big issue here is that in previous seasons, when Felicity and Oliver have fought, they've resolved it by the end of the episode. This season, episode one ended with Felicity walking off (no resolution), episode two ended with Felicity agreeing to work with the guy who took over Oliver's company (anti-resolution), episode seven ended with Oliver seeing Felicity kissing Ray, resulting in Oliver heading off to Diggle instead of resolving things with Felicity, episode nine ended with Oliver going off to get killed, and now, episode twelve ended with them at odds.  It's a major contrast to the previous seasons, with episode five as the only exception.

[JenMD]

Damn, I lost a post, too, and I can't remember who all I quoted.  Oh well, basically, yeah, this episode was a hot mess of stuff that didn't make sense, as per usual.  It's like the writers are writing vignettes and they don't bother worrying about things that came before or after being coherent as a whole.

 

Guggentime was in full swing this ep, starting right out of the gate.  Roy and Laurel are out, with Diggle (huh?) and Felicity on comms.  Felicity talks to Lance and arranges to have Roy swing by later to pick up a file.  However, when Roy is back at the foundry with the file both Diggle and Felicity are in different clothes?  Huh?  Did Roy go home from seeing Lance, in his costume, then bring it in the next night?  Because Lance was in the same suit to meet Roy that he was wearing when talking to Felicity.  And why exactly did Laurel refuse medical treatment?  Was she just going to bleed all over the foundry floor?  Again, huh?

 

But later, it continues to get weird as after Malcolm leaves after making his offer, we cut scene and pick up the gang talking about it the next night.  Did they not want to discuss it immediately?  That seems like kind of an important topic to just shelve.  Did vigilante union rules kick in and they realized they had to call it a night?  I mean, really?  It's just weird timing, whether it was an editing thing or just a writing thing.

 

As is being discussed right up thread, the whole thing with Oliver and his costume.  I mean, I know MG said they specifically put Felicity in the van so she wouldn't be there when Oliver came to get the suit, but they didn't even bother to give her a reason, in show, they didn't even show her once the fighting started until she was, inexplicably back in the lair near the end with Diggle and Roy.  And yes, that's a head-scratcher because why would they just leave before it was all said and done?  And just how did Oliver get into street clothes (and his costume end up back in the lair) if they were in the lair, where they saw him in his costume out on the streets of Starling City?  It makes no sense. 

 

What also bugged about Oliver's return was they gave reaction shots to Lance, Roy and Laurel, but no Diggle or Felicity.  Nothing from the latter two until the shot of them watching on the computer. 

 

The writers manage to miss so many emotional beats, it's kind of amazing, really.

 

As for the end, I can understand both sides, but as has been said, the typical tv-style lack of communication made it so much worse.  I feel for both and wish the whole gang had had a longer reunion before the writers ruined it. 

Edited February 5, 2015 by JenMD

[Password]

To be fair, even in ep 5 Felicity walked away because Oliver was throwing love letters at her again. Not only are they not resolving things, they've lost the light, uncomplicated air that drew many including me to them and it's just depressing.

Someone mentioned in a thread, I believe it was @blixie that Oliver and Felicity are suffering from a case of "talk past each other" itis this season. Until they sit down, talk things out and stop their dramatic exits, nothing will be communicated or resolved. Oliver doesn't get a chance to explain himself, Felicity doesn't get a chance to just...talk? Like seriously give her room to let her babble go.

I have yet to watch the episode but I AM thinking of possible ways to resolve this situation. Not just to Olicity but for Felicity and Oliver. I love their individual characters and want things to be good for themselves before anything else.

Then I remember Ray is on the horizen and I start saying things like "sweet nibblets".

Edited February 5, 2015 by Limbo

[icandigit]

 

And I'm going to raise the possibility that the reason there was zero focus on Laurel working with the man who killed her sister? The writers just looked at the storyline through Oliver's PoV and completely overlooked the implications it had towards Laurel

I admit I hadn't been watching the show. So this really confused me. I thought it was just because I've been following online and not watching. Wasn't most of the season about her vengeance and wanting to get Sara's killer. It wasn't a minor point, wasn't it her main storyline. So glad I stopped watching this.

Edited February 5, 2015 by icandigit

[JenMD]

Sorry, still thinking of a few things I lost earlier.  Forgot to mention how much I just don't care about Malcolm.  Sure, John Barrowman seems like a fun, lovely man, but I'm over Malcolm.  This "forced redemption" tour is just idiotic and it's making the rest of the characters (particularly Thea and Roy) look equally clueless.  My jaw was just dropping all over the place yesterday as Thea espoused how her father had "no agenda" and then Roy was rhapsodizing about how much Malcolm cares (or whatever).  I felt like I accidentally got off the train at Crazytown.

 

As for this being the second of the big BC 2.0 trilogy, eh, she was kind of a non-factor for me.  Just kind of there, unrealistically beating up bad guys, etc.  It was really Malcolm's ep, with a healthy side of undead Oliver.  I will say, I side-eyed her comment to Felicity about "paying attention", and that's wholly on the writers.  I can't even blame KC for the delivery on that one.  That line was just snide.

[patchwork]

Yay for Sin and lil'Nyssa!

 

The episode kinda deflated once Oliver got involved with what was happening in the Glades imo that should have wrapped up as Roy and god help me Laurel proving themselves capable as masked heroes. It should have been a drugged Thea guarding the alley to prevent anyone from getting in the way of revenge killing Brick and her presence makes Malcolm change his mind. The Arrow swooping in and giving a rousing speech feels unearned, the whole plotline was about what can happen to Starling City and Team Arrow without him. 

 

Then end the episode with Oliver going to the apartment and doing the very thing his team refused to do and join forces with Malcolm. Save the other reunions and the Olicity scene for the next episode where they can be given the time they deserve.

 

I can understand why they didn't tell Thea while Oliver was gone, explaining it means explaining a whole lot of other things but now he's back can't someone please tell Thea that her father's drugging her and used her to kill someone? Preferably Oliver, who comes clean about being the Arrow and they turn the tables on Malcolm in proper Queen style.

Edited February 5, 2015 by patchwork

[Danny Franks]

I admit I hadn't been watching the show. So this really confused me. I thought it was just because I've been following online and not watching. Wasn't most of the season about her vengeance and wanting to get Sara's killer. It wasn't a minor point, wasn't it her main storyline. So glad I stopped watching this.

 

I think Sara's death was just an excuse for the writers to get Laurel training as a vigilante. Beyond that, they clearly don't give a shit about Sara, and thus, nor does Laurel. 'Who killed her and why? Who cares, look at Black Canary! Isn't she just super awesome?'

[Shanna]

How many problems would be solved if Oliver went to Team Arrow before speaking to Malcolm? Even if Oliver chooses to work with Malcolm over the objections, it would have allowed an actual conversation about it. Felicity could still leave angry, Oliver could still chase her down but it would have flowed so much better. If this was S2, I bet that's how it would have happened.

I was thinking the same thing. This didn't fit with their team ideal at all. Hell, they voted earlier this episode about what to do and then Oliver comes back and makes a deal with the devil before even swinging by to say hi to the women he loves.

Also this show has gone hog wild with my most loathed plot nonsense: drama about things that would have been fixed by someone telling the damn truth. How many are we up to now? Sara's death, Oliver's identity, what Malcolm did to Thea, who killed Sara... This show would lose half it's plots if people would just tell the damn truth.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Shanna

[TrueMyth]

And if he is conning Merlyn, that's something you share with your trusted teammates.

 

Well, unless he is cautious of possible surveillance of the lair. Still, not something you should hide from the audience for long.  It doesn't make your character look clever if your audience can't predict their actions or understand their motivations.  It's why con shows and movies are actually rather difficult to plot satisfactorily.

 

I want to add my utter adoration for the way Felicity handled Malcolm's initial pitch to join the team.  The blocking was amazing.  She was like a queen on her tech throne, flanked by her trusted vassals. For all the anvils we sometimes duck on this show, it was a nice piece of subtly to show that she doesn't feel the need to rise in his presence.

 

I don't care if it is total fannon, but I just see her starting a deep, digging worm into all of Malcolm's finances, security protocols, and electrical systems.  I see Felicity building a code that will allow her to nuke him on one button when the time is right.  Shut down all avenues of escape and message his exact location to the LoA.  When Malcolm inevitably betrays Oliver, Thea, and Team Arrow and everyone is running around bemoaning what they are to do, I just want her to quietly clear her throat from her station.  Not to say, "I told you so."  Time for Oliver to make it up to her later.  Instead, let's just take this sucker down for good.  It would be awesome, and she can totally do it.

Edited February 5, 2015 by TrueMyth

[manbearpig]

That's what I'm hoping for. This student defeats the teacher BS doesn't even make sense in this context - Ra's didn't train Malcolm. Unless it's amounting to Oliver and Thea taking down Malcolm.

 

I'd love to see Thea end Malcolm for making her a pawn. I want her to manipulate him in a way to leads to his death. Basically I want her to be mini-Moira with ninja skills.

[slayer2]

I forgot to mention how eye-rolling Wildcat turned out to be. This is the guy who trains the Black Canary. He got taken out by a Slum Lord. 

 

This whole episode was underwhelming.

 

I forgot to bitch about this also. Is he dead? What.the.actual.fuck? This is the guy who trained Black Canary and Superman and the only DC character outside of Batman to defeat Ra's and he gets taken out by the big mouth from Snatch? C'mon show, come the fuck on! Someone mentioned that it was fundamental to the narrative so that Merlyn could face Brick, fair enough but if that's the ultimate goal would it be so hard to have put a bullet in WildCat instead of undermining his fighting skills. He's a known quantity in the DC universe, give the dude a little something.

 

 

I'd love to see Thea end Malcolm for making her a pawn. I want her to manipulate him in a way to leads to his death. Basically I want her to be mini-Moira with ninja skills.

 

I will forever be on-board with this.

 

 

And I'm going to raise the possibility that the reason there was zero focus on Laurel working with the man who killed her sister? The writers just looked at the storyline through Oliver's PoV and completely overlooked the implications it had towards Laurel

 

This also confused me. I started to forget what I watched in the past and wonder if maybe no one clued Laurel in on Merlyn's whole trickery with Thea and that perhaps Laurel didn't know who murdered her sister. They just had people acting crazy for crazy's sake in this episode. The only thing that worked for me were the fight scenes and Team Arrow's teamwork and decision-making process. Working in groups is tough as shit so I sure appreciated that but ultimately everything else was kind of wack. I enjoyed the episode but I think I was watching it through Smallville coloured glasses. Not sure when that happened.

 

 

 

 

 

The episode kinda deflated once Oliver got involved with what was happening in the Glades imo that should have wrapped up as Roy and god help me Laurel proving themselves capable as masked heroes. It should have been a drugged Thea guarding the alley to prevent anyone from getting in the way of revenge killing Brick and her presence makes Malcolm change his mind. The Arrow swooping in and giving a rousing speech feels unearned, the whole plotline was about what can happen to Starling City and Team Arrow without him.

Then end the episode with Oliver going to the apartment and doing the very thing his team refused to do and join forces with Malcolm. Save the other reunions and the Olicity scene for the next episode where they can be given the time they deserve.

 

 

Yaaaas! Somebody needed to walk on-set and yell "Cuuuuuuuut, you're doing too much right now." they just crammed all this shit into one episode like it was nothing. Incidentally the same weird crap was happening on The Flash. You know when you try to shut a drawer that you have no business closing because your clothes are half hanging out and looking crazy and you know if you just took the time to fold them properly then it would all fit perfectly? That was this episode.

Edited February 5, 2015 by slayer2

[Duke Silver]

The things I liked this episode:

 

--no Ray

--Tatsu + Oliver

--even though the plot is ridiculous, the more Malcolm the better, IMO

--Felicity's words/deeds were (finally) in character; I don't understand people hating on her, at least based on what she did this episode.

 

The things I disliked:

 

Pretty much everything else

 

If Tatsu had followed Oliver to SC, I'd stick around to see more of that interaction, but for now, I'll only pay attention to promos/spoiler alerts to see if/when Maseo/Tatsu/Oliver are together again.

[Shanna]

I'd love to see Thea end Malcolm for making her a pawn. I want her to manipulate him in a way to leads to his death. Basically I want her to be mini-Moira with ninja skills.

I want that so much. I want Thea to be proven not to be a total idiot.

[blixie]

 

Well, unless he is cautious of possible surveillance of the lair.

 

Right, and also I want to say that I don't really think Oliver has formulated a plan per se, and instead is just kind of winging it, and that's why he didn't bring the Team into it. I think he's feeling the situation out to come up with a plan, and also he's Oliver, he thinks it's his show and his burden and his crusade, his risk, all alone, he'll tell his team what he thinks they need to know when he thinks they need to know it! I don't know why SA or the writers think I want to watch THREE YEARS of that guy not learning a g-d thing.

 

I mean I think that advice from Tatsu, IS sticking with him, but if the student defeats the teacher than, his plan such as it is, IS pretty straight forward, he's going to get close to Malcolm, learn how he thinks, so he can defeat Malcolm. And of course as others have pointed out Malcolm has also taught Thea. It will warm my heart if brother and sister (and the rest of TA of course) come together to end Malcolm, even if they fail and it turns out Malcolm has been working with Ra's all along toward some end, or even if he's for real about redemption cakes until Ra's offers him something that makes him betray Thea/TA. Like say,....ZOMBIE TOMMY. No I'm never letting it go, I love you Zombie Tommy! 

[yellowfred]

I can't believe no one told Sin that Sara died.  Okay, that's not true, I can totally believe it, because absolutely everything involving Sara's death on this show has been awful, but still.  Like, I remember, a while back, thinking that Nyssa showing up in the Arrow cave and drawing her bow on Oliver and Co. to find out what happened to Sara was a bit of overkill on her part.  Now, I understand that that's apparently what it takes to get these assholes to tell you that Sara died.  On some levels, I hope she sticks around, because I kind of like the idea of her and Quentin teaming up, but, at the same time, I worry that they'd end up having her supporting Team Laurel, for whatever reason, which would be gross.

 

On a side note, I kind of love that they showed Malcolm meeting tiny!Nyssa (who's already kicking ass) and that he got his League name by doing corny dad magic.

[apinknightmare]

Well, unless he is cautious of possible surveillance of the lair. Still, not something you should hide from the audience for long.  It doesn't make your character look clever if your audience can't predict their actions or understand their motivations.  It's why con shows and movies are actually rather difficult to plot satisfactorily.

 

I wish they'd move. I can see Felicity being distracted/sad enough to not realize Malcolm had hacked into her system (MAYBE), BUT THERE WAS A HUGE LENS RIGHT ON HER COMPUTER, ARE YOU TELLING ME SHE DIDN'T SEE THAT? Did grief make her blind? Ugh, the plot stupid. It hurts. I wonder if that's something that's going to be addressed or if the cameras are going to come back into play Slade-style at some point?

 

But yeah, if he's conning Malcolm he needs to come clean about it. It seemed like when he was talking to Malcolm that he just wanted training, but the way he explained that to the group and later Felicity did make it seem like they were in cahoots on more than training. 

I can't believe no one told Sin that Sara died.  

 

I can't believe no one told her up till now, but it seems like Roy and everyone else completely forgot she existed. Roy did tell her that they needed to talk, but alas, he had to push that conversation off so he could organize a good ol' fashioned rumble! I wonder if he ever actually managed to let her know her friend was dead.

[Guest]

*But it's also worth noting that at least in the case of this one site, many of the most vocal critics were dudes, and some of the bristling was about how Felicity is supposed to be superhero support and she's not staying in her lane and going along with what the big men want to do. Sexism is alive and well.)

 

THIS. Sorry, but I don't think as many people would be complaining if Diggle was the one disagreeing with Oliver at the end of the episode. It'd be like 'Yeah, Diggle's serving Oliver some truth tea! You tell him, Digg.' I am not here for this misogynistic bullshit.

I'd love to see Thea end Malcolm for making her a pawn. I want her to manipulate him in a way to leads to his death. Basically I want her to be mini-Moira with ninja skills.

 

Omg, yes please. I had been hoping that Thea was playing Malcolm at his own game all along, like a mini Moira. They disproved that with the whole 'drugging and mind raping his own daughter' thing but Thea should get her day. If they want her to have any agency back, she needs to be the one to take Malcolm down. 

Edited February 5, 2015 by Guest

[apinknightmare]

THIS. Sorry, but I don't think as many people would be complaining if Diggle was the one disagreeing with Oliver at the end of the episode. It'd be like 'Yeah, Diggle's serving Oliver some truth tea! You tell him, Digg.' I am not here for this misogynistic bullshit.

 

And the funny thing is that you could tell Diggle agreed with Felicity. Oliver's sitting there talking about how he and Malcolm are going to figure things out and Digg's looking at him like, "this fucking guy..."

[dtissagirl]

This episode is making me wanna put my tinhat on. Because at least tinhatting entertains me. As opposed to this show right now.

 

Maybe Oliver is not Oliver anymore. Somehow Ra's got Tommy's conscience in Oliver's body when he killed him. Oliver's conscience is trapped in the sword.

 

Tommy is gonna take Malcolm down from the inside.  Literally. /instantrimshot.com

[slayer2]

 

THIS. Sorry, but I don't think as many people would be complaining if Diggle was the one disagreeing with Oliver at the end of the episode. It'd be like 'Yeah, Diggle's serving Oliver some truth tea! You tell him, Digg.' I am not here for this misogynistic bullshit.

 

I don't agree with this because I've had massive problems with Diggle this past season he's told Ollie to dump Roy, dump Sara, dump Thea. His decision making these past few months (this episode notwithstanding) has been dodgy at best. I think what a lot of people pissed with Felicity are saying has less to do with misogyny and more to do with getting on with it. It was like season 1 Thea, where she just seemed to be popping up to bitch at Ollie and end of season 2 Slade where the whining just got to be too much. Okay we get it you loved whoever the fuck, but she's dead now and you've already killed his mother so move the fuck on you simpering gymp. Laurel was this way for a lot of (the same) people in season 2, anyone who interferes with getting on with it needs to have a seat.

 

Felicity's arc in season 3 seems to be irrevocably tied to whining, complaining and crying over the man that Oliver is supposed to be in her mind and this episode was no exception. But I look at it like this, who cares? Yes you're upset at him but I'm not watching Arrow through Felicity glasses I'm just watching Arrow. Felicity is doing the same thing that Laurel was doing in season 2, whining and complaining because he wasn't the Oliver she wanted and it was just as annoying then as it is now.

 

Personally I can honestly say that if the man I love had been through all Ollie had been through and he had just come back from the dead and made the choice he did I would not have THAT to say to him. Even if I disagreed and needed a minute, that's some bullshit. Maybe no one's ever died on her before but god what I wouldn't give for another moment with someone I've lost that the last thing I'd be thinking to do is verbally attacking them no matter what decision they made. IMO a lot of people who don't ship Olicity didn't have time for shipping anyways but will tolerate it if it doesn't eat the show. But this is some grade A Lana Lang/Clark Kent bullshit. The show is about him being a hero, not Felicity's version of what a hero is, Oliver's version of what a hero is. He must answer to himself, not her or anyone else and anything that speaks to the left of that is likely to piss off people who are watching the show for Oliver and/or not watching the show for a ship (in whichever shipping variety you swing).

Edited February 5, 2015 by slayer2

[Guest]

And the funny thing is that you could tell Diggle agreed with Felicity. Oliver's sitting there talking about how he and Malcolm are going to figure things out and Digg's looking at him like, "this fucking guy..."

 

Exactly. Diggle and Felicity are like the moral centre of Team Arrow (most of the time - there's been a few iffy moments for Diggle this season but on the whole I look to those two as what is morally right). And we know Diggle would agree with Felicity because he already did earlier in the episode but because he's not a woman and he didn't get all emotional at Oliver about it, he's ok. *eye roll*

 

 

I don't agree with this because I've had massive problems with Diggle this past season he's told Ollie to dump Roy, dump Sara, dump Thea. His decision making these past few months (this episode notwithstanding) has been dodgy at best. I think what a lot of people pissed with Felicity are saying has less to do with misogyny and more to do with getting on with it. It was like season 1 Thea, where she just seemed to be popping up to bitch at Ollie and end of season 2 Slade where the whining just got to be too much. Okay we get it you loved whoever the fuck, but she's dead now and you've already killed his mother so move the fuck on you simpering gymp. Laurel was this way for a lot of (the same) people in season 2, anyone who interferes with getting on with it needs to have a seat.

 

Felicity's arc in season 3 seems to be irrevocably tied to whining, complaining and crying over the man that Oliver is supposed to be in her mind and this episode was no exception. But I look at it like this, who cares? Yes you're upset at him but I'm not watching Arrow through Felicity glasses I'm just watching Arrow. Felicity is doing the same thing that Laurel was doing in season 2, whining and complaining because he wasn't the Oliver she wanted and it was just as annoying then as it is now.

 

Personally I can honestly say that if the man I love had been through all Ollie had been through and he had just come back from the dead and made the choice he did I would not have THAT to say to him. Even if I disagreed and needed a minute, that's some bullshit. Maybe no one's ever died on her before but god what I wouldn't give for another moment with someone I've lost that the last thing I'd be thinking to do is verbally attacking them no matter what decision they made. IMO a lot of people who don't ship Olicity didn't have time for shipping anyways but will tolerate it if it doesn't eat the show. But this is some grade A Lana Lang/Clark Kent bullshit. The show is about him being a hero, not Felicity's version of what a hero is, Oliver's version of what a hero is. He must answer to himself, not her or anyone else and anything that speaks to the left of that is likely to piss off people who are watching the show for Oliver and/or not watching the show for shipping (in whichever shipping variety you swing).

 

That's fair enough. Agree to disagree!

 

I too have questioned Diggle this season and it's one of my biggest problems with s3. Characters are being written for plot rather than character. This has happened with Felicity too. They're bending them in ways they don't fit. And while I think Felicity was perfectly in character last night, I do think in this instance they had to cut short their moment into a gut punch instead of allowing what those characters would normally do, which is to talk things through. Oliver and Felicity have always discussed and resolved their problems before but they're not getting the chance because plot says so. It's bullshit.

 

And while I can't accuse every 'hater' of misogyny, it would be naive to think it doesn't come into it at all. A lot of the hate I've seen has come from men who think Felicity should be quiet and stick to what she does best. No, I'm not here for that. 

 

Also, I don't think Olicity is eating the show at all. They had one scene at the end which lasted a few minutes out of a 40 minute episode. That's nothing. 

[quarks]

Speaking of screentime:

 

« uprising »
Oliver: 10mins, 13secs
Laurel: 10mins, 22secs
Diggle: 10mins, 7secs
Thea: 6mins, 17secs
Felicity: 10mins, 15secs
Roy: 13mins, 16secs
Malcolm: 16mins, 17secs
Quentin: 2mins, 29secs

 

« season totals (so far) »
Oliver: 4hours, 5mins, 40secs
Laurel: 1hour, 32mins, 7secs
Diggle: 1hour, 43mins, 54secs
Thea: 45mins, 20secs
Felicity: 2hours, 22mins, 53secs
Roy: 1hour, 46mins, 41secs
Malcolm: 38mins, 42secs
Quentin: 24mins, 37secs

 

Source: http://forgingfire.tumblr.com/post/110142815454/uprising-oliver-10mins-13secs-laurel

[slayer2]

 

And while I can't accuse every 'hater' of misogyny, it would be naive to think it doesn't come into it at all. A lot of the hate I've seen has come from men who think Felicity should be quiet and stick to what she does best. No, I'm not here for that.

 

Agreed, from the male perspective (of which I do not come from) I'm certain there is some misogyny there from some posters.

 

 

Also, I don't think Olicity is eating the show at all. They had one scene at the end which lasted a few minutes out of a 40 minute episode. That's nothing.

 

 

Perhaps not Oliver and Felicity collectively. But certainly Felicity and her "feelings" about Oliver and Ray (the Roy/Ray thing still fucks me up) and the makeout and all the Clana-isms and anvils have ruined what used to be a character that I quite liked. I haven't been a fan of Felicity since the "ILYs" dropped due to the drastic change in her behaviour ever since.

 

 

I do think in this instance they had to cut short their moment into a gut punch instead of allowing what those characters would normally do, which is to talk things through. Oliver and Felicity have always discussed and resolved their problems before but they're not getting the chance because plot says so. It's bullshit.

 

I think it's clear that this show doesn't write romance well with the exception of Oliver/Huntress (my shipper goggles are on there) once everybody gets a taste of Oliver's love they all go a little crazy and get a little intolerable, it's like what happens on General Hospital when women would get within and inch of Sonny or Jason. I'd be happy if they just quit with the shipping for a while and got down to business. If they must show coupledom I'd be happy to watch Diggle and Lyla or Thea and Roy or Nyssa and ANYONE. But I'm not feeling this at all right now. It's forced and crazy and it's bringing down the momentum of the show. Lest we forget that 3 seasons of unnecessary angst invariably leads to 7 more seasons on the CW network.

[thuganomics85]

 

 

« season totals (so far) »

Oliver: 4hours, 5mins, 40secs

Laurel: 1hour, 32mins, 7secs

Diggle: 1hour, 43mins, 54secs

Thea: 45mins, 20secs

Felicity: 2hours, 22mins, 53secs

Roy: 1hour, 46mins, 41secs

Malcolm: 38mins, 42secs

Quentin: 24mins, 37secs

Damn, that low?  That's just sad.  I know The CW is all about the pretty youth, but that excuse doesn't even fly, because The Flash has been more then able to give Jesse L. Martin and Tom Cavanagh ample screen time, despite being "oldsters", in CW-land.  I hope Paul Blackthorne is at least doing something fun with all that spare time.

 

Of course, I'm really curious about how much Brandon Routh has gotten.  I still think he might even have gotten more to do then David Ramsey, which just saddens me.

[apinknightmare]

And while I can't accuse every 'hater' of misogyny, it would be naive to think it doesn't come into it at all. A lot of the hate I've seen has come from men who think Felicity should be quiet and stick to what she does best. No, I'm not here for that. 

 

My issue is that I'm increasingly seeing language like, "whiny, emotional bitch," being used to describe her and denigrate some of the things that she does (not here, on other message boards), and that makes some of the discourse pretty tough to take. Like I wrote in the Felicity thread, given the character we've come to know over the past couple of seasons, I absolutely understand why this Felicity would be off-putting to people. She does cry too much and if I were Ray Palmer, I'd be worried about her emotional stability (or the instability is part of her appeal to him). It's just that when Diggle's been criticized after being bent to plot or making stupid choices, or even making the difficult but correct or emotionally driven choices, it seems to be done without calling him any names. 

Edited February 5, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Guest]

Perhaps not Oliver and Felicity collectively. But certainly Felicity and her "feelings" about Oliver and Ray (the Roy/Ray thing still fucks me up) and the makeout and all the Clana-isms and anvils have ruined what used to be a character that I quite liked. I haven't been a fan of Felicity since the "ILYs" dropped due to the drastic change in her behaviour ever since.

 

 

I think it's clear that this show doesn't write romance well with the exception of Oliver/Huntress (my shipper goggles are on there) once everybody gets a taste of Oliver's love they all go a little crazy and get a little intolerable, it's like what happens on General Hospital when women would get within and inch of Sonny or Jason. I'd be happy if they just quit with the shipping for a while and got down to business. If they must show coupledom I'd be happy to watch Diggle and Lyla or Thea and Roy or Nyssa and ANYONE. But I'm not feeling this at all right now. It's forced and crazy and it's bringing down the momentum of the show. Lest we forget that 3 seasons of unnecessary angst invariably leads to 7 more seasons on the CW network.

 

 

I can't stand Ray so I agree, that whole Felicity/Ray stuff they are building to is taking up valuable screen time and is absolutely not needed. I mean, O/F managed to mess things up without the help of a love triangle so it's kind of pointless. I wish he'd GTFO. IMO, it's those two (and the storyline of other characters) which is dragging down the momentum of the show.

 

Also, it kind of feels like Felicity is only there to prop Ray's journey or be the love interest. I can't fault her for that. I blame the writers.

 

But I have a lot of issues with the way they've written Felicity this season. I think they've lost the balance and seeing her cold and distant or crying a lot of the time is not pleasant to watch. But I don't think her feelings for Oliver have been taking up time at all. IMO she's purposefully not been given a voice most of this season because it wasn't the right time to do it. Again, she was being dictated to by plot. And that's one of the reasons it's been so frustrating because we knew how Oliver felt but were never given the chance to see how Felicity felt and perhaps if we had, they could have skipped over the awkward distance between them or whatever. But apparently they like to angst up their romantic pairings on this show so I'm not surprised.

 

I do see why you feel the way you do but I guess I'm hoping there's a reason for all of this in the long run. If not, I give up.

[KirkB]

The way Sin casually walked on screen I think we were supposed to believe she had been around this whole time, it's just that Roy hadn't bothered to seek her out and tell her about Sara because they're not telling anyone. Except Dinah. And Ted. And Thea. And Nyssa. What was I saying? Oh, right. 

 

I did notice that Laurel isn't quite the insta-Canary everyone was worried about. Most of her fighting seems to be a combination of catching guys off guard or from behind and swinging the staff like it's a bat. Every time somebody counters the staff or has any actual combat ability they knock her on her ass and she's just lucky Roy is around. You put her up against anyone competent and she's screwed. I'll still annoyed by her wearing the costume in the first place and pissed about her getting the others to adopt her lying to Quentin but...

 

Speaking of! Thank you, Sin. Quentin may not know Sara is dead but at least he knows something is going on. He'll confront Laurel and Roy and the Arrow and will hopefully either finally be told or at least figure it out for himself.

 

The only reason I'm not more bothered by Malcolm is how much I like Barrowman. I agree with the people who had as issue with why Malcolm didn't kill Brick when he had the chance. This is a guy who didn't bat at eye at slaughtering hundreds of people, why would a trained killer hesitate to put a bullet or ten into the guy who murdered his wife? He only did the speech there to start him on the road to redemption (which is ludicrous for all the reasons said more eloquently by others here) and to give Oliver time to stop him.

 

Honestly, the WTFery has gotten to me. I just don't care enough to get upset anymore.

[slayer2]

 

I do see why you feel the way you do but I guess I'm hoping there's a reason for all of this in the long run. If not, I give up.

 

Hope springs eternal and at the end of the day no matter how bad it may get it's still nowhere close to as bad as Smallville- the Clana years so, I'll just continue to watch for the action, the rise of Black Canary, the return of Nyssa, Huntress and Suicide Squad and to see poor Oliver finally love himself (and the salmon ladder) and I'll be satisfied.

Edited February 5, 2015 by slayer2

[Shanna]

Personally I can honestly say that if the man I love had been through all Ollie had been through and he had just come back from the dead and made the choice he did I would not have THAT to say to him. Even if I disagreed and needed a minute, that's some bullshit. Maybe no one's ever died on her before but god what I wouldn't give for another moment with someone I've lost

snip...

The show is about him being a hero, not Felicity's version of what a hero is, Oliver's version of what a hero is. He must answer to himself, not her or anyone else ).

To the first point, she didn't just find out he was alive in that moment. I think the editing was crap here, but basically they watched Oliver give a dumbass speech on television from the lair and then hung around for a few hours processing the fact that he was alive before he bothered to drop by. (And don't even get me strarted on how pissed off I am that the show made the speech the moment instead of letting Oliver tell them he was alive in person and showing a proper response!!!)

So she had had time to think about it and her first impulse was the hug. His first impulse on coming home was speeches, seeing his sister, and making stupid deals with Merlin. And he also stomped all over the homecoming moment with his Merlin bullshit instead of just enjoying the moment. Which brings me to point two....

The show is ABSOLUTELY about what Felicitys version of a hero and Diggles for that matter are, not just Oliver's. The entire first season was all about what a hero should really be doing. The "team" aspect of arrow has always been important and Oliver has always needed help with the morals of the situation. This has been an ongoing point throughout the series. So for him to make that decision without them was a but of a betrayal of their partnership and the decision itself is fraught with pitfalls. Diggle made the point earlier in the episode so it was clear, despite all the idiot whitewashing of Merlin's actions, he made the point himself to Thea. He is a killer.

Someone mentioned in one of the threads the problem is that they aren't allowing the characters to actually a discuss problems and differences of opinions they just have someone making a decision, and another getting upset about it. If they were just discussing these things and resolving them I think a lot of complaints would go away but they are doing things backwards. Or ending discussions when they should just be beginning them. And come to think of it, this started with the first episode and Oliver's unilateral decision to quit felicity and just never stopped. That and all the lying are killing the season for me.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Shanna

[slayer2]

 

So she had had time to think about it and her first impulse was the hug. His first impulse on coming home was speeches, seeing his sister, and making stupid deals with Merlin. And he also stomped all over the homecoming moment with his Merlin bullshit instead of just enjoying the moment. Which brings me to point two....

 

Which IMO should be his first impulse. She's his sister, he's the only reliable family she has now in the world and she should come before Felicity. She was the whole reason he left in the first place, to take care of her so to me it makes sense that she's the first person he goes to. Secondly the speeches involved the Glades and being a hero and that should always come before Felicity as well. This is only one of the reasons why I think Felicity could never hold a candle to Chloe Sullivan. Chloe always understood that the mission was what mattered and more than sacrificing herself for Oliver or Clark she sacrificed herself for the mission and because she knew that the lives of millions outweighed the lives of few. Felicity should darnwell be able to wait a few hours while Oliver address the implosion going on in the Glades before he comes back to talk to her about their collective feelings. His role as a hero should come first.

 

 

The show is ABSOLUTELY about what Felicitys version of a hero and Diggles for that matter are, not just Oliver's. The entire first season was all about what a hero should really be doing.

 

I don't agree with that, so we are at odds here. Felicity is an important part of the show for sure but she is not the most important part, she's a character they initially made up to make the show lighter and get around tech issues and to solve chemistry problems between the two romantic leads. I don't at any point think the show should be switching to her point of view over Oliver's as the most fundamental. She is not the hero of the show, he is. She can be a hero in her own right as can Diggle, Canary, Black Canary, Thea and Roy but she's not the central hero of the show. If all plots and morals funnel first through her then IMO that's a pretty big damn problem. Not as big as for Oliver as it was for Clark Kent and his Lana situation on Smallville since Green Arrow isn't exactly known for his morals, but it's enough of a problem to get people like me, who aren't here for the romance or the origins of Felicity Smoak, irritated.

Edited February 5, 2015 by slayer2

[Shanna]

My point is not that her pov is the most important. My point is that Team Arrow, which includes feleciity, Diggle and Oliver plus the newbies, has played a very important part in shaping the moral choices of a hero. Diggle initially, then added felicity. They all argued with Oliver and came up with solutions based on the discussions. It's not been "Oliver makes the decisions and everyone else just has to agree and get with the program". Which is why Diggle and felicity quit for moral reasons at least once or twice each. [and Diggle and felicity are clearly on the same page morally this episode regarding Malcolm. I think that means, show wise, that they are right and that will be proven somewhere down the line but we will see]

So agree to disagree on this one.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Shanna

[calliope1975]

My point is that Team Arrow, which includes feleciity, Diggle and Oliver plus the newbies, has played a very important part in shaping the moral choices of a hero. Diggle initially, then added felicity. They all argued with Oliver and came up with solutions based on the discussions. It's not been "Oliver makes the decisions and everyone else just has to agree and get with the program". Which is why Diggle and felicity quit for moral reasons at least once or twice each.

 

If Oliver were left to his own devices, the show would have ended after S1. He'd probably still be hanging out in a busted up airplane on Lian Yu. If he had eventually come back, the show would have ended after S2 when Oliver just gave up and was waiting for Slade to kill him. Oliver has always needed outside forces to force him think differently. When dude makes his own decisions, they don't tend to go too well. And that's okay, he's evolving into a hero. (I still don't think he's there yet.) That's probably why all the Insta!Heroes irritate me. On one hand, you show Oliver progressing fairly slowly to his comic destiny while others get there in a handful of episodes. It's a disconnect for me.

[slayer2]

My point is not that her pov is the most important. My point is that Team Arrow, which includes feleciity, Diggle and Oliver plus the newbies, has played a very important part in shaping the moral choices of a hero. Diggle initially, then added felicity. They all argued with Oliver and came up with solutions based on the discussions. It's not been "Oliver makes the decisions and everyone else just has to agree and get with the program". Which is why Diggle and felicity quit for moral reasons at least once or twice each. [and Diggle and felicity are clearly on the same page morally this episode regarding Malcolm. I think that means, show wise, that they are right and that will be proven somewhere down the line but we will see]

So agree to disagree on this one.

 

I agree that they all work off of each other and that works to his benefit definitely but where I think the writers are going with this is a holy grail arc with Felicity, the same as they did with Laurel when she was the DiD. They have a woman who's say is the be all and end all to Oliver and who can break his spirit with a sideways glance. I don't need to see that crap, not from Felicity, Laurel or anyone. At the end of the day Oliver tried to put an Arrow in The Huntress, the same way Buffy put a sword through Angel. It hurt to watch but it was necessary. I'm not saying he should kill Felicity but what I'm saying was in those moments Oliver and Buffy valued themselves and the greater good over their feelings for whomever they loved and I want Oliver to get to that point. I don't want these nasty things Felicity keeps saying every time she gets upset at him to break him down like they're doing. If she can go her way and be fine with it I want the same for him. I want emotional empowerment on his end as well. If she's been through some things this season it's nothing like what he's been through. Dude can back from the DEAD. 

 

I reference a lot of Buffy and Angel because I loved those shows but also because I see thematic similarities. In this situation I see Dawn stomping her feet and yelling at Buffy like "You don't want to be here with me do you?" and leaving Buffy to feel even guiltier than she already did. The girl had just been ripped out of heaven. Similarly Oliver just went through hell, you don't have to know that he died to know that where he just came from wasn't fun, and he obviously didn't beat Ra's or he would have been back sooner. Show the man a little love before you throw him to the wolves, he deserves (at the very least) that. When was the last time Oliver was allowed to have a good cry and throw a tantrum, the man needs so many hugs and a night in bed with a cup of hot chocolate but no one gives him anything remotely like that. It's all look how this has hurt Felicity. She needs to take a seat at the back of the bus and look at the people in front of her because they've been through far more shit.

[statsgirl]

Which IMO should be his first impulse. She's his sister, he's the only reliable family she has now in the world and she should come before Felicity. She was the whole reason he left in the first place, to take care of her so to me it makes sense that she's the first person he goes to.

Felicity is an important part of the show for sure but she is not the most important part, she's a character they initially made up to make the show lighter and get around tech issues and to solve chemistry problems between the two romantic leads. I don't at any point think the show should be switching to her point of view over Oliver's as the most fundamental.

Oliver should check on Thea, partly because she is his sister and partly because she's hanging out with Malcolm.  But it's made more problematic that this whole mess happened because Thea was making bad decisions. Had she not joined forces with Malcolm, he couldn't have brainwashed her and Oliver wouldn't have needed to fight Ra's.  So the rightness of Oliver's need to make sure she's okay is weakened by her actions.

 

Felicity may have started out as light entertainment but over the course of season 1, she joined Diggle as a point counterpoint to Oliver's obsessions. She's not Dawn, she's the opposite voice to him, the verbalization of the path that he must follow, just as Diggle in s1 and Felicity in s2 told him he was not alone and Felicity from the start was against the killing.  In that sense, she's more Giles than Dawn (as is Diggle).  She didn't go through what Oliver did but she went through a lot in the month he was gone and now he's going to throw everything way not only because it's not what she wants but because he's going to screw up his life and Thea's and god know what else.

Hopefully it's not for nothing that it's Felicity and Diggle who are opposed to Oliver joining forces with Malcolm.

 

Now to thoughts about the episode:

There were three must watch moments on the website that I watched before I saw the whole episode: the two Oliver/Felicity scenes and Arrow's speech. Thank you, CTV, for knowing what's important.

 

David Ramseys' facial expression as Felicity leaves saying she needs some air is priceless:  "Oliver, you fucked this one up good."

 

I was so glad then the Black Canary showed up when the two goons had Roy. I was afraid Roy and Laurel were stupid enough to go out patrolling alone.

 

Quentin takes his heart medication under emotional stress not physical.  (Reminds me of the early days of House when it still made sense.)  I like that he didn't want Roy to tell Sara he was looking for her, he trusts his daughter to make the right decision about when the contact him.  Poor man

 

Why is Laurel being an idiot about not wanting her cut sutured?  Scar aside, what about infection?

 

"Only the student has hope of defeating the master."  To be honest me, but that seems pretty stupid to me. Wouldn't someone who knew different techniques have a better chance  than someone who fights the same way?

 

"I truly believed I could change the Glades and prevent what happened to my family from happening to anyone else."  He is still, and always was BSC.  Listen to that, Oliver.  The man does know how to make an entrance though.  Why didn't he just kill Brickwell at the start when he had the chance?  I thought he was a better archer than that.

Oh Thea, don't take the evidence to Laurel ADA.  Don't  you know she's given up being lawyer.?

 

There were some good lines, mostly Felicity's "Great, we can add irony to the list of charges against Brick."

 

With Brick's "You know the deal boys, you take me down first you walk out alive", he's a lot like this version of Ra's al Ghul.

 

Thea's speech to Roy about it meaning so much that Malcolm was the only one who cared about her to save her during the siege shows that she's still very self-centered. Roy was out there trying to save the whole city but her only concern is that Malcolm was there to save her.

Edited February 5, 2015 by statsgirl

[Shanna]

Well if felicity having problems working with someone who mass mutderers over 500 people including his own son and her friend out of batshit craziness makes this a "holy grail arc" I am actually ok with that. Diggle seems to agree with her too.

Although I'm glad you aren't saying he should kill felicity over it, lol.

But it's made more problematic that this whole mess happened because Thea was making bad decisions. Had she not joined forces with Malcolm, he couldn't have brainwashed her and Oliver wouldn't have needed to fight Ra's.

Truth! I was more interested when I thought she was playing him, a la Moira. Edited February 5, 2015 by Shanna

[slayer2]

 

In that sense, she's more Giles than Dawn (as is Diggle).  She didn't go through what Oliver did but she went through a lot in the month he was gone and now he's going to throw everything way not only because it's not what she wants but because he's going to screw up his life and Thea's and god know what else.

 

*cleans glasses with handkerchief*

She can't be Giles because she has an emotional stake in everything and everyone he does based on her romantic feelings for him. Diggle can sort of be Giles but he doesn't necessarily have the experience. I see him more older brother than fatherly but like I said the choices he's made of late (barring this episode) have been very non Giles-y indeed.

Edited February 5, 2015 by slayer2

[calliope1975]

I reference a lot of Buffy and Angel because I loved those shows but also because I see thematic similarities. In this situation I see Dawn stomping her feet and yelling at Buffy like "You don't want to be here with me do you?" and leaving Buffy to feel even guiltier than she already did. The girl had just been ripped out of heaven. Similarly Oliver just went through hell, you don't have to know that he died to know that where he just came from wasn't fun, and he obviously didn't beat Ra's or he would have been back sooner. Show the man a little love before you throw him to the wolves, he deserves (at the very least) that. When was the last time Oliver was allowed to have a good cry and throw a tantrum, the man needs so many hugs and a night in bed with a cup of hot chocolate but no one gives him anything remotely like that. It's all look how this has hurt Felicity. She needs to take a seat at the back of the bus and look at the people in front of her because they've been through far more shit.

 

Interesting. I see where you're coming from, and I was also a big Buffy/Angel (the shows not the ship) fan. My take is a bit different though. First off, I think the entire Felicity and Oliver conversation should have had more time to breathe and had a bit of distance from their reunion. That's on the writers/directors, and I can see why people wouldn't want Felicity ragging on Oliver right after he returned from the dead. Again, I blame the Show for that. 

 

As far as what she said? I'm firmly on her side. If my good friend (and maybe love) told me they were going to do something that I thought would destroy their soul - yeah I'm saying something. Even if it's harsh or mean. I've ended friendships when it became clear we didn't have the same moral code. Oliver basically told her everything she'd believed about him - about what and who he cared for - is wrong. Now, should we have gotten Oliver's chance to explain to TA why he's doing what he's doing? Yes, and maybe that would have changed her and Digg's mind on the matter, and that's another huge problem this show has with writing for plot instead of character. But for what we actually saw on screen, I can't fault Felicity.

 

Slade killed Oliver's mother in front of him and I still think he's a better guy than Merlyn. 

[thuganomics85]

 

With Brick's "You know the deal boys, you take me down first you walk out alive", he's a lot like this version of Ra's al Ghul.

And, he doesn't even make his men climb up a freaking mountain, tiring themselves out, and giving him an advantage!

 

 

Slade killed Oliver's mother in front of him and I still think he's a better guy than Merlyn.

Hey, at least if Slade is going to kill someone, he does it himself.  Malcolm just drugs his daughter and makes her do it, all while videotaping it and grinning like a loon.

Edited February 5, 2015 by thuganomics85

[slayer2]

Interesting. I see where you're coming from, and I was also a big Buffy/Angel (the shows not the ship) fan. My take is a bit different though. First off, I think the entire Felicity and Oliver conversation should have had more time to breathe and had a bit of distance from their reunion. That's on the writers/directors, and I can see why people wouldn't want Felicity ragging on Oliver right after he returned from the dead. Again, I blame the Show for that. 

 

As far as what she said? I'm firmly on her side. If my good friend (and maybe love) told me they were going to do something that I thought would destroy their soul - yeah I'm saying something. Even if it's harsh or mean. I've ended friendships when it became clear we didn't have the same moral code. Oliver basically told her everything she'd believed about him - about what and who he cared for - is wrong. Now, should we have gotten Oliver's chance to explain to TA why he's doing what he's doing? Yes, and maybe that would have changed her and Digg's mind on the matter, and that's another huge problem this show has with writing for plot instead of character. But for what we actually saw on screen, I can't fault Felicity.

 

Slade killed Oliver's mother in front of him and I still think he's a better guy than Merlyn. 

 

I agree with you completely. I definitely see Felicity's point of view and it's doubtful I'd be siding with him myself, my only problem is the WAY she went about it and like you acknowledged they shoehorned that whole thing in and it needed waaaaay more time. There's no way they could have made her come off looking good when she just came at him like that after he's limping around all emotionally broken and being newly resurrected. The scene needed to wait an episode as it was brutal.

 

I've ended friendships over moral codes too so I see where you're coming from there. I just want someone to support Oliver and even if that means "news be sad yet tell it merrily". Lovingly tell this traumatized dude that what he's doing makes no sense. He needs that Martha Kent kind of love, that's a strong yet gentle hand, all the Clana-isms will kill him in the end. Just give the dude a hug and a backrub (and a little something else) and lovingly tell him what time it is.

Edited February 5, 2015 by slayer2

[steelyis]

To the first point, she didn't just find out he was alive in that moment. I think the editing was crap here, but basically they watched Oliver give a dumbass speech on television from the lair and then hung around for a few hours processing the fact that he was alive before he bothered to drop by. (And don't even get me strarted on how pissed off I am that the show made the speech the moment instead of letting Oliver tell them he was alive in person and showing a proper response!!!)

So she had had time to think about it and her first impulse was the hug. His first impulse on coming home was speeches, seeing his sister, and making stupid deals with Merlin. And he also stomped all over the homecoming moment with his Merlin bullshit instead of just enjoying the moment. Which brings me to point two....

The show is ABSOLUTELY about what Felicitys version of a hero and Diggles for that matter are, not just Oliver's. The entire first season was all about what a hero should really be doing. The "team" aspect of arrow has always been important and Oliver has always needed help with the morals of the situation. This has been an ongoing point throughout the series. So for him to make that decision without them was a but of a betrayal of their partnership and the decision itself is fraught with pitfalls. Diggle made the point earlier in the episode so it was clear, despite all the idiot whitewashing of Merlin's actions, he made the point himself to Thea. He is a killer.

 

 

And, boy, is there going to be a lot of white washing if they do plan to rehabilitate Malcolm. The man was willing to murder every living thing in the Glades, including fucking babies! I don't know where they plan to take this plot twist, but I think they'll make the show too morally convoluted if Malcolm joins Team Arrow and Oliver's decision is proven in any way correct or sound. And if they're doing darkness for darkness sake, fuck this show. The only way this shit works is if Oliver is 100 percent wrong, Felicity and Diggle are 100 percent right, and Oliver pays dearly for his mistake.

[statsgirl]

The only way this shit works is if Oliver is 100 percent wrong, Felicity and Diggle are 100 percent right, and Oliver pays dearly for his mistake.

I'm with you, completely.  I think (hope) that will be Oliver's lesson this season.

 

I'm sad Thea talked Roy into believing Malcolm was a good guy who could help them.  "He saved Thea's life, he didn't have an agenda.  He cares about this city."  Oh Roy, you poor fool, Malcolm always has an agenda.

 

She can't be Giles because she has an emotional stake in everything and everyone he does based on her romantic feelings for him. Diggle can sort of be Giles but he doesn't necessarily have the experience. I see him more older brother than fatherly but like I said the choices he's made of late (barring this episode) have been very non Giles-y indeed.

It's the logic of their arguments, not the emotions.  Felicity argues against teaming up with Malcolm because he's a mass murderer, crazy and has deliberately hurt of killed people she cares about. The best version of Oliver which is the one that she sees wouldn't do it (this is consistent because she's always seen what Oliver could be at his best and encouraged him to be it), and she doesn't know how they live with themselves doing it this way.  Diggle, who has experience with Amanda Waller, turns him down, saying "It has. Guilty... You were expecting something else, Merlyn? "  

"That you'd have some measure of common sense, yes. "  

"You expected us to throw in with you? After what you did to Thea? To Sara? To Olivers?" 

"To save your precious city, yes."  (Here Malcolm is equating Diggle and Team Arrow with Oliver.  Mistake.)

 "That's the thing, once we we let the end justify the means, that's the first step. 

"To what?"

To becoming you."

 

If Moira were still alive, she'd be supporting Felicity and Diggle.  RIP, Moira, we miss you.

 

 

Roy asks "So how does this work? Do we vote?"  I resent the idea that they get equal votes. Diggle and Felicity have been there longer and have more experience as well as more wisdom, their opinions should count more.

[Guest]

I've just seen a gif of Felicity hugging Oliver and she closes her eyes and sort of half sobs/half laughs in disbelief that he's really there. MY HEART. Aww...

 

I know Felicity told Oliver that she had fantasized that he would do things differently, but I wish we had seen that just as we saw Oliver's dream. I hate it when they tell and don't show us. Badly done, show! It would have helped with all this not knowing how she feels nonsense. 

It's the logic of their arguments, not the emotions.  Felicity argues against teaming up with Malcolm because he's a mass murderer, crazy and has deliberately hurt of killed people she cares about. The best version of Oliver which is the one that she sees wouldn't do it (this is consistent because she's always seen what Oliver could be at his best and encouraged him to be it), and she doesn't know how they live with themselves doing it this way.  Diggle, who has experience with Amanda Waller, turns him down, saying "It has. Guilty... You were expecting something else, Merlyn? "  

"That you'd have some measure of common sense, yes. "  

"You expected us to throw in with you? After what you did to Thea? To Sara? To Olivers?" 

"To save your precious city, yes."  (Here Malcolm is equating Diggle and Team Arrow with Oliver.  Mistake.)

 "That's the thing, once we we let the end justify the means, that's the first step. 

"To what?"

To becoming you."

 

That whole conversation was foreshadowing if ever I saw it. I'm wondering if Oliver is going to lose a bit of himself, or at least struggle to if this team up actually happens. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

I will forgive this episode for any number of sins for Diggle telling Malcolm what's what as quoted above.

 

I actually think Moira is cold-blooded and practical enough that she would have thrown in with Malcolm, all while planning to snipe him after he outlived his usefulness. If it turns out that is what Ollie is doing, then kudos.

[slayer2]

 

Roy asks "So how does this work? Do we vote?"  I resent the idea that they get equal votes. Diggle and Felicity have been there longer and have more experience as well as more wisdom, their opinions should count more.

 

I disagree with that, a  team should mean a team period especially without Arrow all should be equal although without telling Laurel everything they weren't really getting a true vote from her anyway. But irrespective of that they still didn't get equal votes, there were four people and two voted for and two against and the against people won and there was no fifth person for a tie-breaker. So technically you did get what you wanted.

 

 

It's the logic of their arguments, not the emotions.

 

But the logic of all her argument wrt Oliver come from her emotions. She never spoke to Diggle or Roy that way even though they've made  decisions she hasn't agreed with.

Edited February 5, 2015 by slayer2

[tv echo]

I just read a good review by Jessica Breaux (with TV Equals) who opines that working with Malcolm will force Oliver to embrace more of the darkness and brutality of the Arrow while slowly smothering Oliver (remember his identity issue this season - can I be both Oliver and the Arrow?) and that going forward it'll be interesting to see whether Oliver listens to Felicity or chooses to continue walking the dark path with Malcolm.

Edited February 5, 2015 by tv echo