S05.E03: The Two Lisas

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The gentrification of the Back of the Yards continues with the closing of the Alibi's illegal rub & tug. Frank enlists Carl to scare off the lesbians who are buying up more property in the neighborhood while pleading with Sheila not to cave and sell her home. But Sheila has big plans for her future, with or without Frank. Ian goes on a crazed cleaning spree of the Milkovich house and also wants Lip to help convince Mandy not to move to Indiana with her abusive boyfriend, Kenyatta. But Lip remains emotionally unavailable and pushes Mandy away, possibly for good.

 

Promo:

 

Clips:

 

[Chaos Theory]

I really liked how the show dealt with Debbie and her losing her virginity. I know it will be controversial; Debbie gett the older guy drunk (I forget his name) but I liked how the show straight up used the 'R' word and with Debbie. Then the show took a step back and had Debbie process losing her virginity by kinda talking with her sister.

Well Frank's life has literally blown up. I liked the seen with with Shiela and Sam. He was essentially right about both of them but he didn't have to be so cruel about it. Plus he is no prize.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[backhometome]

So they actually had Debbie rape the guy :/. At least they acknowledged it was rape. And not at all surprised by Lips reaction to it. *roll eyes*

[Primetimer]

Meanwhile, Fiona meets a decent guy who isn't scared of her, and Frank and Sheila's fight over her house comes to a pretty decisive end.

Read the story

[Advance35]

I was actually sorry to see the end of Mandy.   I didn't think she would end up with Lip but I was hoping she'd have a Happy Ending of some kind.   I do not think she is going to find that with Kenyatta in Tennessee.   

 

Ian was a friend till the end.   And Mickey reacted just like I expected him too.   He'll do anything he can to help you but he's not going to fight YOU too, your going to have to want to help yourself.

 

So the rub and tug is done?? Kind of sad, it's always nice to see Mickey mixing with Kev and Vee.    And really sorry to see Kev/Vee falling out as I've always liked them as a couple.

 

I can't even talk about Deb right now.

[Amelie06]

I'm really put off by the Deb situation. If that ever got reported to the police, no one would believe that the older guy was the rape victim.  I find this to be a very gross and unnecessary plot. I think the writers were trying to be daring and obviously don't have a real world handle on these things. That man is going to have a cloud hanging over his head for the rest of his life. He will always have to wonder if the police will be knocking on his door. He could possibly avoid jail, but he would definitely be placed on the sex offender registry for the rest of his life. I know he isn't a real person and Deb seems unlikely to contact the police, but I'm just appalled by this development. Couldn't Deb have just sexed up a boy her own damn age?

 

I hope Mandy's ass is gone. She is not a good person. She tried to kill a bitch! She ruined Karen's (is that her name?) life. I get that the girl was awful, but giving someone permanent brain damage is terrible. She should be serving 20 years for what she did. It is obvious to me that the show wants you to root for Mandy and Lip. I have no doubt that Lip's rich girl will do something to make him realize that they are just too different blah blah blah. Next thing you know, Mandy's crazy ass will be back in town and they end up together. I'll be fair, aside from the attempted murder, Mandy wasn't too bad. I'm just really invested in Lip finishing school and being successful.

[CynicalGirl]

omg, Carl Lingus? Just...no. 

[AlliMo]

I thought they handled the situation with Debbie really well by showing so many different perspectives, and by not painting either party as necessarily being predatory, but by acknowledging that what Debbie did was, in fact, rape, and that he'd be the one who would end up with legal consequences.

 

I also like that they're not painting either Vee or Kevin as the jerk, but showing their very real frustrations in adjusting to parenthood.

 

I was a fan of the original series, but I have to say that I really like this adaptation. It may be over the top at times, but it also paints a very realistic picture of life for the underclass in America.

[Sugar]

So, before I get into the fuckery that is Mandy, let me just say that I was oddly touched by the scene with her and Lip (when he was trying to convince her that she deserves a better life than the one she is heading towards). I actually thought it was pretty heartbreaking, especially seeing how awkward Mandy looked. From personal experience, I've been on the receiving end of such a talk, and I know how hard it is to hear those things for the first time, and how easy it is to dismiss them or laugh it off. Even though I think the Mandy actress is the weakest of the cast, I didn't mind her in this episode. And I really bought it from Lip's end.

 

HOWEVER. Are we expected to forget the fact that Mandy ran over Karen and was responsible for her living out the rest of her life as a fucking vegetable??? Did Lip forget that Mandy tried to kill his ex-gf and gave her permanent brain damage?? She is NOT a good person. And I don't buy that the Karen incident is also a product of her "hood" mentality - that she was acting in the only way she knew how. She's made good, unselfish decisions before (getting Lip into college, helping Ian, etc.), so I don't buy that she doesn't know right from wrong.

 

Anyway, buh-bye Mandy. Word to the poster upthread who predicts that Lip will hook up with Amanda during the summer, only to realize that it's not going anywhere (conveniently in the same moment that Mandy comes back into town). OR worse still, if Lip gets word that Mandy needs help, and he dashes off to save her and bring her home. That would suck.

 

The Debbie thing made me feel so uncomfortable, mostly because of Lip's non-reaction, and the fact that "rape" was used for comedic purposes. I don't mean that they were making it "ha ha" funny, but there was definitely a humor subtext during the conversation with Lip, and how he kept repeating "rape"over and over as if the word wasn't so loaded. I also hated the line, "please tell me you were the one doing the raping" (paraphrased). I don't think it was keeping in character with Lip - who can be very flippant, but who ultimately loves his siblings and would never (in my opinion) take such a passive approach to handling a very sensitive and fucked up situation involving his sister. I expect a tough love approach from him - burst of anger, followed by rational discussion. I don't know, it was a very bizarre writing choice, and I don't know why they went there.

 

I get that Fiona is very pretty, but I have such a hard time buying that all of these guys are basically lined up to get to her. Yes, she's pretty (in an unwashed way), but she's also a hoodrat (not judging - born and bred myself!), with A LOT of attitude, no education,  and very little "class" (in what those living outside of the hood define that word to mean). Maybe they've all got the Captain Save-a-Hoe complex? In any case, I'd really like for Fiona to have a storyline that doesn't involve men. Give her a season off. Let her figure her shit out.

 

I love Kevin. And I will never not love Mickey.

[Blue Castle]

This season is really bothering me. Debbie sexually assaults someone? Mandy leaves? Sheila leaves? And just the ever-present casual misogyny that so many of the characters exhibit but which the show never deals with (unlike say, The Sopranos, which spent a large chunk of its 3rd season delving into the misogyny in the characters' lives).

How often in real life does a 14 year-old girl sexually assault a grown man? When is this a thing that happens? And this is like the second time they've had a teenage girl do this! (Karen to Frank in season 1). I'm just fed up. I feel like they've thrown out character development or even plausibility in order to be "shameless" or whatever the hell they think shameless means. It's just so stupid.

[Chas411]

Ugh Mandy will so be back by the end of the season. She'll probably be pregnant too. The writers really need to just let the character go.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

While part of me feels sorry for Mandy due to her horrible father, her abusive boyfriend, her chronic low self esteem, and her pathetic desperation for Lip's affection, I can never forget that she deliberately ran down Karen and turned her into a vegetable. Even if Karen had survived with only a sprained ankle, I could never overlook Mandy's actions in that situation. I sometimes wonder if I would be more sympathetic to Mandy if Jane Levy were still playing her because I have never warmed to Emma Greenwall in the role.

 

And what was with the writers naming Lip's new girlfriend Amanda when we already have a character named Mandy? I mean, I know that happens in real life but this is tv. They could have picked any name for his new girlfriend.

[NorthstarATL]

And what was with the writers naming Lip's new girlfriend Amanda when we already have a character named Mandy? I mean, I know that happens in real life but this is tv. They could have picked any name for his new girlfriend.

Well, the episode was named for the lesbian couple both named "Lisa", so Mandy/Amanda might not be the worst offender.

  I actually liked Fiona's storyline this episode. It was rather mature and sweet. Not at all what she's been handed over the past couple of seasons. I assume it will end horribly.

   Where does Frank get off dissing anyone's hygiene? (Though I suspect he was correct.)

   The Debbie storyline was ridiculous. The male anatomy is quite marvelous at not being capable of performing under conditions of actual unconsciousness. Regardless, Debbie would be responsible for drugging the pizza guy, and there is enough evidence of pre-medidation. As an unwilling/unwitting participant he would not be held accountable for statutory rape. Still, it's good that he doesn't realize that, as staying as far away from Debbie as realistically possible seems like a safer way to live.

[india wilkes]

I've been reading comments elsewhere where people say debbie's rape and the way mandy left was the last straw. They are going to stop watching the show.

I do think they could have handled Mandy's exit better. We didnt see her say goodbye to Ian. They've been friends since season 1, though they didnt interact at all last season. Apart from lip, they never seemed to know what to do with mandy. Maybe it is best that she is no longer a part of the show.

[Advance35]

I don't know why I find Mandy more sympathetic than Karen.  I just do.   Maybe it's because we've seen Mandy do a little more "good" than we saw from Karen.  Though her "bad" tends to be much more damageing.  I found Karen to be predatory in quite a few very insidious ways and while I don't think she deserved what happened to her, I didn't feel one ounce of sympathy for her and was glad when she was gone.   With Mandy, what she did to Karen was bad and while I still really liked her, I'm not at all surprised Karma found her.   And considering the form of the karma (physical abuse), she may end up JUST like Karen before all is said and done.   

 

Mandy wasn't gifted in the academic sense but I thought she was tenacious, determined (when she chose to be) and oddly emapthetic at times, I just wish she had used all that on her own behalf.   Karen was ALWAYS confident in her own worth (or seemed to be to me),  I think it was always clear just how little Mandy thought of herself.   She pulled a shot gun on her father when he was going to try and kill Ian, but didn't have the self-love to pull it on him when  he forced himself on her.

 

I don't know, I've grown to really love the Mitcovitche's (Mickey and Mandy), I think Mickey's just as damaged and destructive as she is, it's just that his crazy has been tempered by Ian, who up til now, has always been very stable and solid.   I know the actress got a movie role and that's why she was written out but they definitely left it open ended.   I'm hoping we see Mandy again.    

[Chaos Theory]

If this is a final exit for Shiela it is a good one, with the destruction of the house she was once trapped in and the world she is now free to explore.

I like Mandy and always thought she was a far better person then Karen ever was. At least she was capable of thinking about someone other then herself.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[truthaboutluv]

With the whole Karen and Mandy issue, for me it wasn't even about thinking Mandy was more sympathetic. Honestly, if Mandy had gotten in trouble for running Karen down, I would not have cared so much and I can't say I'll miss the character even though everyone sadly knows where her story is going, leaving with that abusive psycho boyfriend.

 

That being said, the reason I never gave a shit about Mandy running Karen down and never judged or disliked her for it is because I didn't give a shit about Karen. Obviously were this a real life situation I would feel differently but being that it's about fictional characters and again I really, really loathed Karen, Mandy's mowing her down only got a mere shrug from me. 

Edited January 26, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[jbrecken]

Should we assume that Lip is aware enough to know that all it would have taken to make Mandy stay was an "I love you too," even an insincere one?

[Chaos Theory]

Should we assume that Lip is aware enough to know that all it would have taken to make Mandy stay was an "I love you too," even an insincere one?

If it was insincere I don't think he would have had a problem saying it. I think that is the rub.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I think that when Mandy blurted out her "I love you" while they were having sex, Lip realized a lot of things in that moment. The first was that despite her relationship with Kenyatta, she still has feelings for Lip. And I think knowing that made Lip really face the reality that whatever happened between them in the past, he doesn't love her. He knew that if he returned her "I love you," she would have ditched Kenyatta and stayed but that would bring Mandy roaring back into his life, something that he doesn't want. He cares about her enough not to want her to leave her family and friends to be with her abusive boyfriend in another state, but not enough to go back to being with her.

 

I really hope she doesn't come back pregnant because I don't see Lip and Mandy as endgame. I think that Lip is in that weird place that a lot of college age kids are where they don't feel like they fit in with their high school friends or their old neighborhood anymore but they don't have a new place/identity to call home yet either. Hanging out with old friends or hooking up with an ex is exploring something that used to feel comfortable to see if it still fits the way that it used to. We saw earlier this season that Lip avoided hanging out with his old acquaintances. It will be interesting to see what happens later with Amanda and college and his life away from the neighborhood. I hope that seeing Amanda at her parents' house doesn't convince Lip to go running back to his old life.

[renard]

Ever since the first scene that revealed Frank's secret project in the basement, I knew that he would blow up the house; I was just waiting. When they left the junk yard guy down there and took their fight outside, I perked up and when the camera pulled back and framed Frank direct center with the house behind him, I knew the time was nigh. The strange and ironic thing is that Frank's beer is a great product (seemingly) capable of being a money maker and would be a success in the new gentrified neighborhood. We'll have to see if they drop it or if he recovers.

[iMonrey]

Did they just write Sheila off? Has anyone heard if she's leaving the show for good? I will be disappointing if she is, because I love Joan Cusak, but I have to admit the show has struggled to keep her relevant ever since they wrote Karen off.

 

I won't be disappointed if we never see Mandy again though. I just can't wrap my head around the fact that we may have lost Sheila but we still have to have Sammy hanging around.

[Chaos Theory]

Sammy is still relevant. The kid who actually wants Frank around.

[truthaboutluv]

Did they just write Sheila off? Has anyone heard if she's leaving the show for good?

 

 

Cameron Monaghan and a few of the show's writers sent out tweets that definitely made it sound like both Sheila and Mandy are gone for good. However, after the whole "Jimmy is most certainly dead" thing, I wouldn't be surprised to see either one or both return at some point.

[Gulftastic]

 

I get that Fiona is very pretty, but I have such a hard time buying that all of these guys are basically lined up to get to her. Yes, she's pretty (in an unwashed way), but she's also a hoodrat (not judging - born and bred myself!), with A LOT of attitude, no education,  and very little "class" (in what those living outside of the hood define that word to mean). Maybe they've all got the Captain Save-a-Hoe complex? In any case, I'd really like for Fiona to have a storyline that doesn't involve men. Give her a season off. Let her figure her shit out.

 

 

Whilst I agree that a plot not involving a man would be welcome, I entirely buy all people falling for her. Emmy Rossum is just lovely, and Fiona's swagger adds to it.

 

I feel slightly wrong for laughing out loud  when Debbie' was told 'You date-raped me!', her reply was an excited 'we were on a date??'

[Chaos Theory]

I can buy people falling for Fiona. There is "something" about her. That thing you can't put your finger on but want.

As for Debbie. Carl is an obvious psycholopath in training but it is Debbie who has always scared me more. She seems so gosh darn sweet but will kidnap a baby because she is lonely so date raping a dude is not out of her wheelhouse.

[SoWindsor]

Why did it sound like Ian had cotton balls in his mouth this episode?

I wish I had Fiona's confidence. I wonder where she gets it from considering how she grew up.

I found it slightly hard to believe that she was so impressed by that guy's song but he was hot so I can see her getting caught up in the moment.

Edited January 26, 2015 by SoWindsor

[whiporee]

A couple of things about Debbie. 

 

I don't think she thought for a second she was raping him. I don't think the idea that a) any boy wouldn't want sex and b) if they got it -- no matter how they got it -- they would be okay with it. Female-male rape is a hard concept for a kid, especially one as young as Debbie. And everything about her life to this moment has shown her that, in the end, men just want to get laid, not to mention that overly intoxicated hookups are a fact of life around her.  In her mind -- and to her experience -- he got hard so he must have wanted it. The idea that she was doing something wrong never occurred to her. So while we as viewers can look at her and think she's a rapist, or she did something bad or wrong or even unforgivable, but to her, she was just living out what she'd been taught.

[Cosmosgravitation]

Except Debbie knows some boys won't always say yes to sex because Matty himself turned her down several times last season.  She's fourteen, she should have realized he still wouldn't want to have sex with her.

[whiporee]

Maybe, but I think we forget just how young 14 is, and how persuasive certain ideas we watch and grow up with can be. 

[Chas411]

Having watched the episode I have to say, I don't appreciate Ian's attitude to Lip regarding Mandy. It's not on Lip to convince Mandy to stay. She might be in love with him but from every interaction that they've had I've never felt that Lip was with her. Ian's flippant "I'm sure you did" response to Lip saying he tried was just unnecessary because at the end of the day Lip can't pretend he's in love with her when he's not. Not to make Ian happy and certainly not to make Mandy happy. Sometimes I think that the show is trying to sell a different story but from what I've seen he's not in love with her and never will be. He cares about her and appreciates that in her own way she has tried to help him (brain damaging Karen aside) but sadly for Mandy he just isn't in love with her and even throughout season three when he did his best to forge a relationship with her it was always doomed because as much as he tried he just wasn't in love with her.

 

Now that's my take on it, I do think the writers have tried to sell them as something more but it just doesn't seem to work. From some of the moments this episode I have a feeling that if the writers don't find a decent love interest for Lip soon to make them forget Mandy she'll be back by the season end with a baby Lip in tow and Lip will realise that it's the hood girl Mandy that he's always wanted.

 

Please no.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Chas411

[Vapor]

I'm really lost on some of the opinions about Debbie's storyline here. To me, this was the most brilliant aspect to a pretty damn good episode, by recent standards for this show. I feel like it puts a spotlight on the concept of female-on-male rape, without an overly demonstrative resolution that screams through the screen how wrong it is and how it must be acknowledged as a thing. I feel like "Shameless" pretty rarely does that, and I would not have expected a sudden rush of extra special political correctness in this storyline just because it's a sensitive topic that gets trigger warnings and rants on tumblr all day every day.

 

I felt like the attitudes within the universe of the show were pretty well reflective of some unfortunate views on the concept in real life. This stupid idea that guys would of course love getting laid regardless of the source of said lay. Here, the actual guy getting taken advantage of is not nearly as okay with it as he's expected to be by those around him. And, even if he was, he'd still be seen by many as the rapist instead of Debbie, who got him drunk with super-beer, took him to bed, and sexed him while he was barely alive, sans consent.

 

The question of whether Debbie knew what she was doing is treated as complicated, and so it should be. She's a little kid, who had never been intimate with a boy like this before. A boy who is actually a seemingly weird adult man, in fact, who she perceives as liking her but just needing a nudge forward, since she's constantly told by everyone around her a bunch of stupid things about how guys are supposed to operate. On the other hand, Debbie's not an idiot. She knows it's not cool to do things to people without permission, and if the guy is upset, it's obviously not for nothing. But then, she still gets told that this guy is fucking weird for not enjoying her sex like it's just a given, so what exactly is she supposed to believe?

 

The last thing I would want is for "Shameless" to shy away from a storyline because it makes the viewer uncomfortable with its subject-matter. People argue a lot that "I guess it really is SHAMELESS" for many things on the show. And I guess some people would see that as some kind of convenient excuse for crazy behavior on the part of the characters, but I don't know if I would see it that way. I mean, obviously there are shows that would never touch a story like this, but I don't think its use here is a good example of the show just having run out of ideas on how to play up the joke of its namesake. One could cry out-of-character behavior, if that's how you feel, but I don't question the motivation behind doing the story outright. To me, it fits just fine.

[Sienna]

I want to like Gus, I really do (really good gumbo is a sure way to my heart), but something about him creeps me out a lil. I think it's the beard.

[wovenloaf]

I was glad for Sheila when she ditched Frank and left in the RV. But I kind of hope that is it for her on the show. I've grown weary of her character.

I'm not very into Frank, but when he went "nice sock" when that guys leg landed on the ground, I cracked up.

I agree that I wish we could have a Fiona storyline that didn't revolve around a man. I didn't see why she even stayed at that jazz show after the girlfriend showed up. I would have blown his cover so fast and then gotten out of there. But I guess there had to be some ruse for her to end up with gumbo guy.

[Advance35]

Can't believe that was the end for Sheila.   Though I think it's oddly fitting.   I think I saw it pointed out in a review that the House where she was all but a prisoner was blown to smitherines and she just boards an RV and takes off into the world to find happiness.   As the cap on a character's journey the whole thing was outrageous and kind of uplifting and touching, tinged with a little melancholy and I think that's very fitting of Sheila's character.    I'm not surprised that Sheila didn't get any scenes with anyone other than Frank because it was always driven home what a lonely character she was.    I think she became VERY fond of the Gallaghers but I'm not sure she mean't as much to them.  And that happens, that doesn't make them bad people.

 

And I question whether ANY character on this show will get a definitive happy ending.  ALL of these people self-sabatoge in one way or another.   Due to how they were raised, or the environment's they've become use too, just about every character is there own worst enemy in one way or another.    In that way, Mandy's ending (for now) is kind of fitting.  I don't think the writers have written Lip/Mandy like an endgame couple per se.  I just think they used the Lip/Mandy relationship to show that while Mandy was capable of savage brutality (what she did to Karen), she was also a damaged, sad young woman who'll do what she can to save/help someone she cares about (Sending Lip's college applications in, Warning Mickey he's making a mistake letting Ian go in S3, warning Debbie to never let a man brutalize her in S4) but  tragically lacks (thanks to Terry) the knowledge that nobody will ever love her if she doesn't love herself.   It's all moving (to me) in a quiet way.

[Blue Castle]

 

To me, this was the most brilliant aspect to a pretty damn good episode, by recent standards for this show. I feel like it puts a spotlight on the concept of female-on-male rape, without an overly demonstrative resolution that screams through the screen how wrong it is and how it must be acknowledged as a thing.

 

Yeah, since they spoltlighted an issue that is pretty much non-existent in the real world, at least they did it subtly.

 

I'm really having problems with this season.  I loved last season so much and this year just seems all over the place.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Blue Castle

[Chas411]

I never know where the writers are going with Lip/Mandy. Nothing about his interactions with her say to me that he loves her. I feel like he feels bad for her and likes her but Ive never bought he loved her. I think that's always been the massive hole in their relationship. She'd do anything for him. All he had to do was fake an I love you to get her to stay but he couldn't even do that? And I don't buy he wasn't saying it because of some deep and profound reason like running away from his feelings because I genuinely think he simply just doesn't love her and doesn't want the baggage that she'd be bringing to his life.

[Vapor]

Yeah, since they spoltlighted an issue that is pretty much non-existent in the real world, at least they did it subtly.

 

 

And, with this mindset, the next time a guy is raped, it'll be that much easier to dismiss, right?

[Tesseract]

Is the girl that keeps trying to pick Fiona up the girl seen with Steve at the end of Season 4. This makes me think that she’s flirting with Fiona to keep an eye on her for Steve. I didn't care for the Steve character but I know he is still alive. I just hope they don't reintroduce him at some point this season. That was way overplayed.
 

[wovenloaf]

Yes, the one flirting with Fiona is the same one that was with Steve. I hope she's not there at Steve's request, but I have a feeling she is. It seems kind of condescending to send somebody to go give Fiona $100 bills all the time. I'd love some money, but I'd sure feel weird about my ex who disappeared sending some woman to hand out charity to me.

I liked Steve in the first season, but the stuff with marrying the druglord's daughter seemed a little too ridiculous to me. Maybe I was just tired of his character.

[Blue Castle]

And, with this mindset, the next time a guy is raped, it'll be that much easier to dismiss, right?

Obviously, I wouldn't want something like that to happen to anyone. And, obviously, if it did I would want whoever it was to be taken seriously and believed. But in a world where young women are far more likely to be the victims of rape than adult men, I question a show that's chosen to depict teenage girls raping adult men not once, but twice. In just 51 episodes. I think it paints an unrealistic picture of what it's like to be a young woman growing up in our culture and I think it demonizes young women (and how they interact with sex) in a harmful way.

[truthaboutluv]

I don't really see the situation in that way. While both Karen and now Debbie violated the men they had sex with, I don't think the writers demonized them or presented them as bad people in the situation even though their actions were bad. Karen was shown as clearly spiraling before she slept with Frank and it was presented as a revenge act against the father who had dehumanized her by calling her a whore, slut and forcing her to attend some creepy re-virginized group.

 

Debbie, I feel is clearly being depicted as a fourteen year old kid who didn't understand the magnitude of her actions largely because she's grown up around a very sexualized environment and because she has internalized attitudes like the one Lip had, that guys can't be raped and that most guys are happy to have any girl willing to have sex with them. So with that kind of attitude and mindset, she didn't view her actions as wrong and so I don't think she was demonized. However I do think it's an important issue to address, that having sex with anyone, yes even an older, stronger guy, against their will is a violation and wrong. 

 

Also, it's not like these are the only acts of sexual violation the show has depicted. Mandy is a victim of sexual abuse by her father and I think the show has done a decent job of showing the effects of that. That it's likely why, while she'll stand up for and fight for the people she cares, she clearly does not see herself being worthy of the same kind of love, success and happiness. 

Edited January 27, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[iMonrey]

As for Debbie. Carl is an obvious psycholopath in training but it is Debbie who has always scared me more. She seems so gosh darn sweet but will kidnap a baby because she is lonely so date raping a dude is not out of her wheelhouse.

 

There's definitely something wrong with Debbie. It would worry me that she's so much more obsessed with losing her virginity than she is about, say, school work and grades. We have no idea how well she does in school but she's never been shown to be that into it. I realize she hangs around with some pretty slutty friends but that's a problem too. She's aspiring to be Holly rather than Lip. I've never heard her express an interest in higher education.

 

And she knew damn well Matt didn't want to sleep with her. He told her over and over again she was too young, and even when she invited him to the party she made a point of telling him it was only as a friend. So he's smashed and passed out and she thinks it's OK to jump on top of him and ride him? That's not a normal mistaken assumption, she knew him better than that.

 

Yes, the one flirting with Fiona is the same one that was with Steve. I hope she's not there at Steve's request, but I have a feeling she is. It seems kind of condescending to send somebody to go give Fiona $100 bills all the time. I'd love some money, but I'd sure feel weird about my ex who disappeared sending some woman to hand out charity to me.

 

I didn't understand Fiona's response to that lady's invitation. She babbled something about just getting out of a bad relationship rather than simply saying she doesn't swing that way. Nothing wrong with saying "Sorry, I'm flattered, but I'm not into chicks." Maybe she was afraid she would stop coming around and giving her $100 tips but she turned her down either way.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Seeing Sierra from Dollhouse continue to leave $100 tips for Fiona reminded me of when Pete gave Monica some ridiculous tips on Friends. Of course, it totally worked on Monica so I guess we'll see what happens with Fiona. What I don't understand is why Sierra hit on Fiona. Is she just trying to see if Fiona is already dating someone? What if Fiona had said, "Yes, you're totally hot so let's go on a date"? I think that she is keeping tabs on Fiona and tipping her at Steve's behest but it would be even creepier if Steve doesn't know and he finds out later.

 

ITA that Fiona let her down gently by saying she just got out of a bad relationship (meaning "I'm not interested in dating you now but maybe later down the road") in the hopes that she will keep getting those $100 tips.

[Tatum]

I want to like Gus, I really do (really good gumbo is a sure way to my heart), but something about him creeps me out a lil. I think it's the beard.

 

I was worried about that too. Although he seemed nice enough at the club, something about him asking her to meet him at a coffee shop by his house that just happened to close permanently that morning, and him inviting her to his apartment, just screamed setup to me. And then when he was following her really closely while she wandered around I was just waiting for him to get scary aggressive. I was glad to be wrong though.

 

 

Debbie, I feel is clearly being depicted as a fourteen year old kid who didn't understand the magnitude of her actions largely because she's grown up around a very sexualized environment and because she has internalized attitudes like the one Lip had, that guys can't be raped and that most guys are happy to have any girl willing to have sex with them. So with that kind of attitude and mindset, she didn't view her actions as wrong and so I don't think she was demonized. However I do think it's an important issue to address, that having sex with anyone, yes even an older, stronger guy, against their will is a violation and wrong.

 

I'm torn on that one. Obviously, female on male sexual abuse is not taken anywhere near as seriously as the reverse, and I can kind of understand a 14 year old thinking an erection is implied consent. That said, I find it beyond creepy that she did it while he was passed out. Who even wants to do that? It's not like she merely took advantage of his drunken lowered inhibitions- who besides sexual predators enjoys having sex with someone who's not even awake? That is what tips the scales for me and makes me think Debbie is perhaps as much as a sociopath in training as Carl appeared to be in the early seasons.

 

 

I never know where the writers are going with Lip/Mandy. Nothing about his interactions with her say to me that he loves her. I feel like he feels bad for her and likes her but Ive never bought he loved her. I think that's always been the massive hole in their relationship. She'd do anything for him. All he had to do was fake an I love you to get her to stay but he couldn't even do that?

 

In all fairness though, it wouldn't have been that simple. Sure, he could have told her he loved her, and maybe that would be enough to convince her to break things off with Kenyatta and he would move without her, but then what? I agree he doesn't love her, and he's not going to be able to fake it long term. Once Mandy figures it out, she'd either go back to Kenyatta or find another guy who would probably treat her the same. Mandy is a deeply damaged person, and it's not on Lip to pretend to love her indefinitely to protect her from herself. I thought that was pretty bitchy of Ian to suggest that Lip should have gone that route.

 

I will miss Sheila, but love, love, love that she finally got away from Frank and is doing something for herself. And Frank really pissed me off in the final scene. Yeah, perhaps everything he said about Sheila and Sammi were true (minus perhaps, the parting shot about Sheila's cooking) but Frank is in no position to insult someone's parenting,  hygiene, or choice of sexual partners and activities.

[iMonrey]

 

I think we were shown in the pilot episode that the kids were all very good in school, and were interested in watching PBS and other good things on TV.

 

I don't remember ever seeing anyone on this show watching PBS. 

 

Lip skated through school because he's so smart and school was so un-challenging, but even he dropped out when he thought Karen was having his baby. He's been pushed and pushed just to finish high school and go to college. If Mandy hadn't filled out the applications he'd never have gone.

 

I think Ian was probably the most concerned with getting good grades because he wanted to go into Westpoint but even he dropped out without finishing. God knows Carl doesn't give a damn about school and does whatever he can to get into detention. We've seen Debbie at school and doing homework or school projects, like the Popsicle stick fort Frank broke. But we've never gotten a sense of whether she excels in school, or skates by, or is failing. They never address that.

 

Obviously, none of these kids seem to feel like they have a chance at a promising future if they do well in school, but out of all the kids Debbie was initially presented as the most stable, or at least the one still trying to maintain some grasp on normalcy in her life. This whole thing with Matt and trying to lose her virginity makes her seem just as damaged and warped as the rest of them - even Carl.

[truthaboutluv]

I don't remember ever seeing anyone on this show watching PBS.

 

 

It wasn't PBS more what looked more like the Animal Planet. It was in the very early episodes of the series, when Fiona first met Steve. The few times he came over, the family was all together, sometimes even with Kevin and Vee, watching some Animal Planet type shows.

[wovenloaf]

In the episode (in Season 2 I think?) where Fiona is yelling at Monica about how she needs to get out with Bob and never come back, doesn't Fiona say something about how Debbie likes school? I don't exactly remember what it was, but I feel like it was something about Debbie joining the debate team? 

 

It doesn't really seem strange to me that Debbie would stop caring about school as she reached 13-14 years old though, particularly in the environment she lives in. 

 

I agree that the whole "come to a place right next to my house; oops it's closed, guess you have to come over" totally seemed like a set up... I didn't get the vibe he was gonna hurt her or something, it just seemed like a thinly veiled excuse to try to bang her.

Edited January 28, 2015 by wovenloaf

[Chaos Theory]

I'm torn on that one. Obviously, female on male sexual abuse is not taken anywhere near as seriously as the reverse, and I can kind of understand a 14 year old thinking an erection is implied consent. That said, I find it beyond creepy that she did it while he was passed out. Who even wants to do that? It's not like she merely took advantage of his drunken lowered inhibitions- who besides sexual predators enjoys having sex with someone who's not even awake? That is what tips the scales for me and makes me think Debbie is perhaps as much as a sociopath in training as Carl appeared to be in the early seasons

Well Amanda's first act of sex with Lip was to blow him in his sleep. In his own words to Fiona....eventually you wake up. Then again Lip has always been a mixed message on sex. Early on I have no idea what season and episode it is but everyone finds out that a child molester of young boys has moved into the neighborhood and they get riled up until they find out it is a woman and suddenly they are "lucky kids" but Lip who is able to rap his mind around the contradiction goes to confront/trick her by seducing her in some half ass plot by lowering his age or something but things get out of hand and Mandy ends up threatening the woman by digging a grave and telling her to get out of town. Shameless has always been good with mixed messages if you are ok with receiving them. Edited January 28, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[truthaboutluv]

Yeah I will say Lip's attitude was somewhat surprising based on how he acted about the female pedophile in the neighborhood. If I remember correctly, he still thought her actions were wrong and Ian was the one saying it wasn't a big deal and then brought up how Lip was fine with him and Kash and Lip actually stated that no, he wasn't okay with Ian and Kash and debated calling the cops on Kash multiple times. I think his comments in this episode would have been more in line with Ian, who has always had an attitude of as long as the person is willing, age and whatever other factors, don't matter. Then again I do  think that Lip has gotten increasingly blase and "don't give a shit" about a lot of things every season, just like Fiona's whorishness has gotten more on display.