S05.E03: The Two Lisas

[Blue Castle]

Carl has also been shown watching nature documentaries on his own once or twice. I think Ian dropping out has a lot to do with his mental illness, because he worked hard in school for years.

Debbie was indeed on the debate team and she was also class president in season one and she used to be presented as very smart--including about sexual matters. In season one Carl is confused about how lesbians have sex, Debbie is not. In season two she stood up for gay rights very ariculately when talking to the other girls at the pool. And Fiona got her GED and has seriously considered community college. It used to be a fairly academically serious family, but that's kind of fallen away in recent seasons.

[Tatum]

I watched the scene with Deb and Lip again and I think Lip's blasé attitude about the rape was mostly due to Deb way downplaying what she did. All she said was that Matty was drunk. Lip probably thought that while Matty was enough of a law abiding citizen to abstain from sex with minors while sober, during a severe judgment impairment due to alcohol he had had sex with Deb and was horrified after sobering up and blamed Deb for taking advantage of him. At no point in their conversation did Deb admit that Matty had been passed out the entire duration. If she had, Lip may have been a little more taken aback by her actions.

And I don't think what Amanda did to Lip is the same as what Deb did to Matty. Amanda started blowing Lip with the expectation he would wake up and be a willful participant. Deb mounted Matty knowing he wasn't awake and likely wouldn't be the entire time. You could that both girls committed a crime by touching the guys without permission, but Amanda at least thought it would be a mutually beneficial endeavor. Deb was indifferent as to whether or not her partner was awake. That's creepy.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

It doesn't really seem strange to me that Debbie would stop caring about school as she reached 13-14 years old though, particularly in the environment she lives in.

From my personal experience, it's pretty normal. I grew up in a regular middle class neighborhood and so many girls who were doing well in school and had lots of extracurricular activities (whether it was student government, sports, band/orchestra, dance) but dropped most of that stuff and went from straight A students to middle of the pack once they hit high school. I think it was a combination of hitting puberty/becoming boy crazy and having more options (choosing your activities instead of your parents just signing you up for a sport, being able to get rides from older kids instead of relying on your mom or the bus to get places, suddenly having new classmates so you weren't stuck with the same kids you went to elementary school with as your social circle).

 

I'm not saying they all dropped out of school or anything, but it was clear that their priorities shifted. Even the girls who stayed involved dropped some activities to focus on others. I remember everyone was shocked that the girl who was eighth grade class president and the first chair flute quit band entirely for cheerleading in ninth grade.

 

I think the other factor is that school starts to become a lot of work in high school so it's not fun like it was when you are younger. They really start piling on the homework so school isn't as enjoyable as it used to be. And when you factor in the other puberty issue, which is some girls turning into total bitches (like Deb's friends suddenly dumping her for no reason), it's no wonder that girls lose interest in school at that age.

Edited January 29, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[dangwoodchucks]

I figured there would be more repercussions for Deb serving Frank's superbeer at the party, but it turns out that was all so that Debbie could statutory rape herself with a passed out Matty (and rape him at the same time). And where was the continuity? Deb wakes up the next morning and the house is clean? From the looks of things the night before, the house should have been as trashed as the back yard was. And I'm sure when Fiona got home she would've found a couple having sex in her bedroom like Deb did. I'm not surprised at Fiona allowing her 14-year-old sister to have a party, but definitely surprised that Sheila gave Deb that potent beer. And who was watching Liam during the party, I don't remember hearing anyone mention him. These details just bug.

 

When Lisa came to the house and Carl answered the door, all I could think about was whether or not he'd brushed his teeth from the Carl Lingus the night before.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I thought the potent beer would have more serious repercussions too. Didn't they show grown men passing out from having a sip? You'd think those skinny young teenagers would be passing out left and right at the party. I was afraid someone would have to be taken to the hospital and then Fiona would be in trouble for essentially letting the same thing happen again.

[iMonrey]

Yeah, after what happened to Liam you'd think Fiona would have put the kibosh on any kind of party without her there to chaperon. 

 

My point about Debbie is that there is something wrong with her. For a character that has thus far been presented as fairly intelligent, it makes no sense that she would have had sex with Matt that way and expected him to be OK with it. He has made it crystal clear to her he was not going to have sex with her. She knew that and emphasized the "friendship" status of their relationship when she invited him to a party. She's not stupid. She's no stranger to the adults around her being hammered. She takes advantage of this guy, then the next morning she's all "Wuhhh? You didn't want to?" I don't get that she was being disingenuous either, she seemed genuinely surprised, which made her look kind of like an idiot.

 

 

Carl has also been shown watching nature documentaries on his own once or twice.

 

Shark Week, maybe, or When Bears Attack. Only the violent stuff. Or animals fucking.

[Tatum]

 

My point about Debbie is that there is something wrong with her. For a character that has thus far been presented as fairly intelligent, it makes no sense that she would have had sex with Matt that way and expected him to be OK with it

 

I agree. I was further disturbed with her conversation with Lip when she seemed dismissive and annoyed by Matty's anger.  And then later, during her talk with Fiona, her melancholy seemed to more about losing her virginity in general rather than the fact that she totally violated someone who had been a good friend to her. Can she honestly not put herself in his shoes, and try to imagine how she'd feel if she woke up and found out someone had had sex with her while she was passed out? Even as desperate as she was to lose her virginity, I don't think that would be something she'd consider okay.

[wovenloaf]

I thought the potent beer would have more serious repercussions too. Didn't they show grown men passing out from having a sip? You'd think those skinny young teenagers would be passing out left and right at the party. I was afraid someone would have to be taken to the hospital and then Fiona would be in trouble for essentially letting the same thing happen again.

Me too! As soon as Debbie took that case of it, I was sure that a bunch of kids were gonna be going to the hospital, or at least hardly conscious. But then at the party, everyone but Matt was just dancing around like everything was fine. 

[DollEyes]

 Delurking to say that Frank, Fiona and Debbie pissed me off in this episode. Frank's pimping Sammi out for a boiler and his using an unsuspecting Shiela's house for a brewery was bad enough, but his having the nerve to put them on blast after he was busted for both as if he's better than either of them-as screwed up as they are-was infuriating. Frank is a world-class, no-class loser who not only squanders the second chance he's been given-which he doesn't even remotely deserve-he's proud of it. Worse, after Shiela's house exploded because of him, Frank's having the gall to try to make nice to her after all the shit he said, only to get dumped by Shiela was the icing on the cake.

 

  As for Fiona, she has clearly learned nothing from her mistake re Liam, other wise she would have never let Debbie have an unsupervised house party with minors, especially if they're even remotely close to drinking age. Debbie's double rape was the worst of all. Her age is no more of an excuse for committing rape than Matty's being unconscious with a hard-on was. She's old enough to know right from wrong and her refusal to care about anyone's feelings but her own wasn't just selfish; it's twisted, to say the least. Debbie not only violated Matty's body, she violated his trust. She doesn't even deserve him as a friend, let alone as a boyfriend, as far as I'm concerned.

[MarysWetBar]

I think you have to realize that Debs has grown up in a house where sexuality is really in your face. Fiona is awful about all the men who wake up in the house and the younger kids see. Remember Mandy in no undies bending over to get her laundry out of the dryer? Mickey sleeping over with Ian...Frank and Monica likely screwing wherever the urge took them. She has grown up surrounded by it so has a skewed way of looking at it. I actually loved the scene with Fiona and Debs in the yard. Emmy has the most expressive eyes and with a look only was able to convey her sadness over Debs information. God i so wish Fiona would at least try to influence Debs in a positive way. ..spend more time with her.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

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