S05.E04: Episode Four

[photo fox]

Sarah Bunting continues to cause waves above stairs, but this time she may have gone too far. On returning to Downton, Thomas suffers an inexplicable illness and Baxter suspects there’s more to it than he’s letting on. Violet reveals to Isobel the surprising truth of her past with Prince Kuragin. Mary comes to a decision concerning Lord Gillingham, but things don’t go quite as planned. When Rose’s father returns to Downton, he breaks news that will shock the whole family.

[panthergirl13]

When Tony asked "am I a bad lover?" I *really* wanted Mary to say "Yes!! You're horrid!!"

 

This episode just had TOO much going on. Mrs. Patmore, Barrow (what the heck was going on there?), the Bates nonsense, Sarah Not D. Bunting, Cora and her admirer, Isobel's proposal (holy shit, I'm just realizing as I'm writing this how MANY things were covered and I didn't even get to Edith or Shrimpie or the Russians!)

[Andorra]

After last weeks dreary episode, I really loved this one!

 

First I really was won over by Lord Merton. His proposal was so sweet! I'm an official shipper now and I hope Isobel will say yes.

 

Then I liked Robert in this episode. Not his treatment of his wife, although I must admit it adds to enjoyment when Cora had such a great line as "and when you wake up make sure you stand up on the right side of the bed", LOL.

 

But overall I liked Robert this episode. His moment with Edith was so sad and touching. The talk to Mrs Patmore was touching, too. I love Mrs Patmore, Lesley Nichol is a great actress!

 

Then HE wasn't responsible for the escalation at dinner at all. Sarah Bunting was so horrible! She kept provoking and provoking him, even after he admitted that Daisy's studies obviously were good and successful. She still kept insulting him!

 

But that is the final nail in the coffin and Tom will tell her goodbye next episode. I'm SOOOOO happy about that! I'm going to buy a bottle of chamapagne and get drunk while watching it!

 

But the best thing wasn't even the prospect of seeing the last of Miss Bunting. The best thing was the Shrimpy/Rose conversation in the library!

 

I BET Rose will end up with Tom. I really do. And I LOVE it!!!!!

[Dust Bunny]

A lot crammed in one episode.

 

I really like Rose's father. He seems so steady and warm-hearted. Actually, I think he's my favorite character now. Wow.

 

Carson is the worst. I now prefer Bates to him. I want Carson to have the biggest comeuppance of anyone on this show. I'd love for Molesley to triumph over him in the end. That'd be delicious.

 

I thought Robert showed remarkable restraint at dinner. I would have yelled at Bunting two dinners ago. I did like Daisy's speech, but Robert putting her (and Mrs. Patmore) on the spot isn't fair, regardless of class or position.

 

My guess is Thomas is doing some form of aversion "therapy". 

 

This episode seemed to set up all the conflicts, and the next episodes will probably unpack them. Hopefully, not all at once. As noted above, there was too much going on.

[ajsnaves]

Anyone else hoping that Tom would just yell out "WHY DO YOU KEEP INVITING HER?"  He clearly has no interest in her, but they keep inviting her around, and he just has to keep being nice.

 

I think Anna is going to push Tony in front of a train.  Speaking of Anna, wasn't she in London when it happened?

Edited October 12, 2014 by ajsnaves

[ZulaMay]

I was really disappointed with Edith's storyline too.  It's too repetitive!  Laura is such a good actress and she deserves better material than this.  I mean, I liked her talk with Violet about how what's best for the family is NOT what is best for her (ain't that the truth?), but otherwise I am ready for more action.

 

I agree that Shrimpie is an awesome character.  I felt the same way after the S3 CS.  Is it just Peter Egan, or am I just so happy to have an older male Gray-Hair Toff who isn't a total self-important blustering idiot?

 

Sorry, Robert was okay this episode.  Still not enough to make up for his general asshattery but props for backing up Mrs. Patmore.  And who can fault him for losing his temper at Bunting?!  JFC.

 

And Carson really is such a JERK!!!  He just gets worse all the time.  What a cold-hearted, stuffy old bastard. The Moseley teasing got old after two instances and was unfunny and mean.  I want Mrs. Hughes to slap him.  Or Daisy.

 

The Thomas stuff is interesting but at this point rather melodramatic.  A little build-up would have been nice.

 

I loved Merton's proposal. it was very sweet and Isobel seemed moved.  She might even say yes.  God, I hope she does because I want Violet to be put in her place.

 

I also sensed some possible Tom/Rose foreshadowing with their parallel "support my marital choice no matter how unconventional or inconvenient " lines.  But I'll wait to see how it plays out with this Atticus guy.  But damn, that's a great name.  Atticus Aldridge?  It just rolls off the tongue.  Still, I'd prefer her for Tom. I definitely see the signs that Andorra sees, but I don't want to jump to conclusions.

 

Oh, and is it just me or did Tony literally just pull a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde?!  I never cared for the guy but I expected him to be pathetic and butthurt, not scary.

Edited October 12, 2014 by ZulaMay

[bybrandy]

Seriously, I can't with Edith anymore.  I  just can't.    I loved her convo with Violet.   I really did.  I liked the small teeny bit also with Violet at dinner where we find she is still writing her columns and I even understand that with the looming threat of finding out the truth that she really does desperately need to see Marigold, and I would probably have felt for her had it not been the same thing every single episode this series.   And I don't see it changing, really.  I would really, really, really like to see her work at the Magazine.  

 

I am interested with where this is going with Lord Merton and Isobel but I don't really see her saying yes.  

 

I like all things Violet.

Are we supposed to not hate Sarah Bunting?   Because, seriously?    I am all for Tom getting his spunk back, really.  But she is so, so, so, so born in a barn.   She'd won.   She had Robert admitting that she'd won and still she wouldn't drop it.   She's not a revolutionary, she's just self righteous for the sake of it.

Alternately?   Daisy helping Miss Pattmore with her letter?   Made of win!

 

I suspect Thomas is trying to make himself normal, poor guy.  But I would be more moved if I felt like he'd been fighting temptation... like... at all... for a long time.

 

Bates takes the blame to keep Anna from it?   Maybe.  I wish I cared.

 

Shrimpy can come back anytime, really.   

[Cherpumple]

Anyone else hoping that Tom would just yell out "WHY DO YOU KEEP INVITING HER?"  He clearly has no interest in her, but they keep inviting her around, and he just has to keep being nice.

My thoughts exactly! I don't even remember the last time he actually sought her out or even had a conversation with her that wasn't centred around her boorish behaviour from a previous dinner at Downton. They really don't have any kind of relationship at all. They don't even seem like friends.

 

Tony definitely upped the creep factor this episode. I was a little taken aback by how quickly he went from whiny to aggressive, and I think Mary was shocked too. I've never understood the concept of not letting someone break up with you, and I'm worried that he'll become stalkerish or something.

 

I may be misremembering, but it seems like the family is already putting way more effort into finding the lost princess Kuragin than they did in tracking down Gregson, which makes me feel even worse for Edith. Between that, Grantham's "I told you they would get annoyed with you!", possible news of Gregson's fate, and the Drewe family pulling away from her, it's amazing that she hasn't had a complete meltdown yet.

 

I like the dress show. Some of those outfits were gorgeous!

[chocolatine]

My guess is Thomas is doing some form of aversion "therapy".

 

 

He's also injecting something - hormones? He looked so ill when he came back from his trip, I hope whatever he's injecting doesn't kill him.

 

I like the dress show. Some of those outfits were gorgeous!

 

I loved the knee-length one, and apparently Mary did as well. I hope we get to see her wear it.

 

I'm not sure I understand the connection between Blake and Mabel Lane Fox. From the previews I thought they were courting and Blake would rebuff Mary, but then he took Mary to dinner. Fellowes wouldn't just bring her in for one scene, would he?

 

As for Shrimpy, I thought he was the one related to Violet. Matthew once asked her how Shrimpy had come by his nickname, and Violet said it was because he was the youngest of her cousins. But in this episode it was said not once but twice that Susan was related to Violet and not Shrimpy. 

[AZChristian]

Just for the record . . . I SO APPRECIATE this thread.  I can't WAIT until January to find out what's happening at Downton!  Thanks to all who fill us in!!

[Eolivet]

Anyone else think Gregson will be revealed to have joined the brown shirts, because that's how bad Edith's luck actually is?

 

I still find Gillingham whiny and pathetic as opposed to the domineering nature of Carlisle. Mary didn't look too impressed with his pleas either. I kept thinking of some TV show or movie about "I don't accept the break up!" Still not ready to declare him a villain just yet. Just a desperate, mopey, temper tantrum-throwing manchild.

[Pogojoco]

 

 

Could Gillingham be any more creepy or gross? He and Sarah Bunting should hook up and be crazy/annoying together. Good for Mary and Grantham for putting that little minx in her place. I actually yelled at the screen at the same time Mary finally talked back to her at dinner. Bunting. Needs. To. Go.

 

 

 

Tony being all "You are NOT breaking up with me!" was really lame. And yes, Tony and Bunting (I only call her Bunting) should hook up. Off screen and away.  She is so annoying- STOP INVITING HER TO THE HOUSE. Also, Tom? You can probably find someone else who believes in what you do but isn't annoying. 

 

I enjoyed Mary and Blake, even though it was only for a few moments. 

 

This did seem like a standstill episode, other than Thomas being sick. 

[kpw801]

 

I may be misremembering, but it seems like the family is already putting way more effort into finding the lost princess Kuragin than they did in tracking down Gregson

 

 

Well as I recall, everyime Lord Grantham offered to send private investigators to look for Michael, Edith always shut him down saying the authorities were already doing everything possible.  She turned down help from her father quite a few times.

Edited October 13, 2014 by kpw801

[Kostgard]

God, Sarah Bunting is a total asshole. I actually get pissed off when any of the characters defend her. I don't care if she turns Daisy into the next Einstein - you aren't that rude to your host multiple times on multiple occasions unless you are a total asshole. I wish Tom would kick her ass to the curb and find someone else to inspire the rebel within. He (and we the viewers) deserve better.

 

I'm glad Mary cooled on Tony since I was never fond of him (and I do find it kinda hilarious that she lost interest after sleeping with him). He's probably going to try to slut-shame her now, but hopefully Blake won't care. He's a million times better.

 

Poor Edith. Can no one just take the logical route and just tell Drewe's wife the truth? And yeah - with her luck, Gregson is probably goose-stepping around Germany right now.

 

Random thoughts: Robert is a boob 90% of the time. Go get yourself some Richard E. Grant, Cora. I wish they'd go ahead and expose Bates as a murderer and get on with it. They are dragging this out way too long.

 

I'm really confused about that is going on with Thomas - I'm assuming it's some sort of 1920s version of "pray the gay away" but what is he injecting? Hormones? Some sort of chemical castration? He had major bags under his eyes for most of the episode, so whatever it is he's shooting up is taking a toll on him. Is this just straight-up out of loneliness now that Jimmy is gone he doesn't even have a friend? (though, try not being an asshole all the time, Thomas, and some people might warm up to you). Is he just tired of being different? Fellowes really needs to explore this a little bit further beyond his usual "scratch the surface then drop it" method. If he's injecting something to turn off his "gay urges" then that is some serious shit and should be treated as such.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Kostgard

[ElectricBoogaloo]

did Tony literally just pull a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde?!  I never cared for the guy but I expected him to be pathetic and butthurt, not scary.

Last week I wondered if Tony was going to be a dick about Mary sleeping with him once she dumped him so I knew it was a possibility but DAMN, DUDE. That is like the first thing you bring up? And the second? And the third? I get being upset because you thought she was going to marry you and instead she jumped your ass, but get a grip. Why would you assume that it has anything to do with how good or bad you were in bed?

 

As for not accepting the break up, I kept thinking of George Costanza when he tried to break up with both his girlfriends and both of them refusing to let him, even after he arranged for them to "accidentally" meet each other.

 

I have such mixed feelings about Edith's storyline. On the one hand, I totally get that giving up your child, especially when she is the last link to the man you loved, is painful and gut wrenching. But I think it does that experience a disservice when you show the same freaking scenes of Edith longing for Marigold and the pig man's wife shutting her down every week. It's only the fourth episode of the season and I am so sick of watching Edith mope around.

 

I had a moment where I really felt for Violet because she really is trying to do what's best for Edith. If Robert was talking about how everyone was going to shun Shrimpy after his divorce, can you imagine how people would treat Edith if they knew she'd had a baby out of wedlock? I doubt there would be anyone in her social class who would deign to marry her. As old fashioned as Violet can be, she knows that Edith having a bastard would be a huge scandal and remove any chance for her to marry someone titled. I'm not saying that marriage is the only goal in life, but no one in that family wants Edith to end up a spinster.

[NotBothered]

I'm really confused about that is going on with Thomas - I'm assuming it's some sort of 1920s version of "pray the gay away" but what is he injecting? Hormones? Some sort of chemical castration? He had major bags under his eyes for most of the episode, so whatever it is he's shooting up is taking a toll on him. 

I assume it's aversion therapy.  He would be making himself physically ill through whatever he's injecting every time he has thoughts about the behavior/desires he wants to correct. There was a similar plot line on the 1st season of Masters of Sex.

 

I had a dream last night that Anna was actually the murderer and trapped Mosley and Baxter under ice falling off that kitchen shed thing when they figured it out (I may have also watched on of the Frozen episodes of Once Upon a Time last night).

 

 

Anyone else think Gregson will be revealed to have joined the brown shirts, because that's how bad Edith's luck actually is?

I'm torn between that and being a spy.  When this plotline first started I was convinced they were going to go down the Mitford path with Edith, and turn her into a fascist or Nazi-sympathizer for a couple episodes before she discovered the error of her ways and had to come back.  I'm glad they didn't do it, but I'm still a little surprised.  I do hope it's something though...Germany seemed like such an odd choice to run away to to get a divorce.

 

I wonder what would be a bigger "Poor Edith"...dead but honorable boyfriend, or Nazi adulterer/wife and girlfriend abandoner. 

Edited October 13, 2014 by NotBothered

[kpw801]

She is so annoying- STOP INVITING HER TO THE HOUSE. Also, Tom? You can probably find someone else who believes in what you do but isn't annoying. 

 

 

ITA.  Plus they have not been faithful to Tom's character in my opinion.  In season 2 he was so unafraid to speak his mind to Lady Sybil and he was quite articulate.  Now They are writing him as some kind of bumbling oaf who all of a sudden does not have the courage to just speak up and say he does not want them to invite Sarah.  He knows how to pursue a woman he likes so let him do it instead of having them foist that monstrous harpy on him episode after episode.

[NotBothered]

Plus they have not been faithful to Tom's character in my opinion.  In season 2 he was so unafraid to speak his mind to Lady Sybil and he was quite articulate.  

I think they're trying (and failing) to parallel Tom and Sarah.  We're supposed to think that old Tom was like Sarah -- no tact, brazen with his opinions, unwilling to to see other sides.  But now Tom is supposed to be thoughtful and considerate, and will still holds with many of his old opinions, does not force them on others.  I don't think they've done a particularly good job at it, but I think that's what they're trying to accomplish. 

 

I'm not sure I agree that Tom was a bumbling oaf.  I think he's someone who is deeply conflicted and his trying to not argue with people who are well-intentioned and think they are supporting him.  They've also clearly shown that Tom still lacks some confidence with the Crawley's and isn't sure where he fits in.  Mary's not exactly helping....one week she supports him, and the next she's telling him to please stop bringing that Bunting woman around.

 

Again...I don't necessarily agree with this choice...I wish Tom was still a little more fiery, but I like him on the show and don't want them to send him off to America.  So I'm willing to take some light character-assassination if it means he'll stick around and we'll get more good scenes between him and Mary.  

[Eolivet]

I BET Rose will end up with Tom. I really do. And I LOVE it!!!!!

 

There was a rumor that Lily James was supposedly leaving Downton at the end of the season (thanks, DianeDobbler!), which would've made it much more likely she ended up with this Atticus Aldridge -- a one-off character. I still think Fellowes is content to let Branson the Bachelor be, at least until next season.

 

 

 

I kept thinking of George Costanza when he tried to break up with both his girlfriends and both of them refusing to let him, even after he arranged for them to "accidentally" meet each other.

 

Yes! "Seinfeld." I knew there was a reference I'd missed.

 

I still think Gillingham will be difficult to shake, but not in a threatening/blackmailing/controlling way like Carlisle was. Put it this way: I'd think if someone asked Mary if she was going to marry Gillingham now, she'd say "No," whereas she always said "Of course!" when asked the same about Carlisle. Mary has made up her mind, but Gillingham hasn't accepted it. I see him being a pushy, clingy ex, but not creepy or stalkerish. I could be wrong, though.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Eolivet

[DianeDobbler]

Eolivit - apparently the spoiler you have was only a rumor - Lily James has expressed her enthusiasm/desire to return for S6.

 

I'm tired of one note played out across an entire series. That's been the deal the past two series. When I look back to series 1, we saw Matthew and Mary's relationship develop. If Tom and Lily are going to be a thing, what is it, keep it in Fellowes back pocket, don't even suggest it until it's suddenly sprung on us? Dear God, what happened to telling a story on this show, and I don't just mean Tom/Lily (if that becomes a story). There's just no stories.

 

I know having a bastard child was no walk in the park, but people managed to get married despite back in those days. There are other people to marry besides someone from an old family. There's always self-made people, successful people in the professions, and besides, people move on. There's a bit of awkward, but then adjustments are made. Sybil married a chauffeur, everybody had a cow, then they dressed the guy up, searched to see if there were any "respectable" Bransons about that they could hint he might be connected with, and that's how it rolls. Pretty soon it's like having a "colorful" ancestor - no big deal. There's conventions to be observed with Edith and her child, discretion, etc., but it's not a prospects killer. It's funny, the writing can really influence you. I was watching S1, and this gorgeous looking woman walked the upstairs corridor - low and behold it was Edith! Mary was about to confront her about writing to the Turkish ambassador. She's got a smashing figure, gorgeous eyes, gorgeous skin. I believe the important thing in scenarios such as indiscretions, illegimate children, etc., is to show somehow you observe/respect the conventions, that is if one wants to still participate and not be a pain in the neck. For example, once everybody calmed down about Tom, they wanted him to dress properly and know how things were done.

Edited October 13, 2014 by DianeDobbler

[abbyzenn]

One thing that has always annoyed me about this show is that usually a 5 minute scene is not shown at once but broken up with 2 or 3 other quick scenes but I thought in this episode the major scenes were allowed to play out in their entirety.  There were plenty of 50 second scenes but these seemed to fill in between major scenes rather than interrupt them.

 

There seemed to be a lot of Violet in this episode and not just her cracking one liners.  She finally has a story line

 

I liked the fashion show scene not just for the fashions but also Mary/Rosamund and particularly Mary/Charles/Mabel.  Everytime I see Charles I think of him as Andrew Foyle from Foyle's War and I loved that show and his character.  Charles just seems so much more mature than Tony.

 

The dinner scene was interesting on so many fronts.  It seemed like everyone but  liked what Daisy said (judging their facial reactions) and too bad Sarah didn't let it go at that.  I did actually feel sorry for her at the end of that scene when the camera stayed on her face (and I say that as someone who doesn't want Tom/Sarah together).  What JF has done a really poor job in this whole Sarah stuff is we don't have any idea why Sarah is so against Crawleys. 

 

Surprised that Mrs. Drewe had the nerve to shut the door in the face of one of the Lord of the Manor's daughters.  Good for her.  I dislike Edith more every episode.

[ZoloftBlob]

What JF has done a really poor job in this whole Sarah stuff is we don't have any idea why Sarah is so against Crawleys.

 

And that's actually a shame because there's many legit class reasons why Sarah would have a problem with the Crawleys and those reasons are always presented as petty even though they aren't.

 

Even though "a servant betters themselves despite opposition" has been done before - there's something to be said that Daisy, and Gwen previously, are being made to feel like disloyal scum for the crime of not wanting to be under Lord Grantham's boots. A woman who gets pregnant out of wedlock in Edith's class is protected, a woman of the lower classes is a whore, is called a whore and is deprived of any work BUT being a whore because the upper class says so. Any one of the servants can be cast out at will for petty petty reasons that aren't necessarily even true and the Crawleys can see to it that the servant in question spends the rest of their life digging ditches *if it pleases them*.

 

I don't particularly care for the character of Sarah Bunting but her attitude betrays Fellowes's attitude about class. The reality is that Downton Abbey is an extremely idealized version of estate life and even good employers in this era would be considered cruel today

[Badger]

Actually, he's done a very good job at showing why Bunting is against them: She is a prejudiced intolerant person who hates the aristocracy simply for existing. That's the big difference between her and Branson.  Branson hates the class system but he doesn't assume that every upper class person is an awful evil person who wants to keep people down.

 

Also, from reading and hearing JF's interviews, he seems to be more into the idea of the upper classes as Lords and Ladies Bountiful who people went to if they needed help.  It's like when the Dowager tried to keep William and Molesley out of conscription or Robert paying off Farmer Drewe's rent debt.

[ZoloftBlob]

It's like when the Dowager tried to keep William and Molesley out of conscription or Robert paying off Farmer Drewe's rent debt.

 

Which are events that happened at the expense of others because the Crawleys were able to use their position to protect the servants who they personally favor. Some other man went to war in place of Mosely and perhaps even died because he had no rich protector.

 

Bunting is rude because Fellowes wants this system shown in a positive light so the person protesting it is abrasive and unpleasant. The system of the rich dispensing favors to the poor at their whim was ripe with abuse.

[Andorra]

Well, the show certainly is not revolutionary and it is nostalgic about the "old times". I always wonder why people get so effused about that. Pride and Prejudice is not exactly painting the aristocracy in a bad light either and we have the housekeeper talking about the "best master" with enthusiasm, still I don't see many people getting mad about it.

 

Downton Abbey is watching the beginning of last century through rose tinted glasses. But not only the aristocracy. Also the life of the servants is tinted far more "romantic" than realistic. There are some characters who are progressive and positve, as there are Tom Branson, Isobel Crawley, Sybil Crawley or Charles Blake. There are toffs who are unlikeable and bad (Larry Grey, Susan Flintshire, now maybe Lord Gillingham?). Robert is not at all shown in a positive light any time. He wasn't shown in a positive light against the socialist Miss Bunting either. The difference is: We know Robert has good sides next to his flaws and we haven't seen many good sides from Miss Bunting yet.

[Cherpumple]

Anyone else think Gregson will be revealed to have joined the brown shirts, because that's how bad Edith's luck actually is?

I would laugh so hard if this happened. I feel bad for Edith, I really do, but it's getting to the point of absurdity that she experiences bad luck and tragedy at every turn, often to the complete unawareness of her family. I'm definitely reaching the point where I almost look forward to seeing how many more things can go wrong in her life because her storyline has basically gone from drama to farce for me.

 

I was a little surprised that Bunting didn't leave after Robert yelled at her and kicked her out. No one jumped in to reassure her that she was still welcome (not even Tom), so why bother staying?

[Camera One]

I thought this episode was generally good, mainly because I like episodes where everyone gets something to do.  I do see how the episode could have felt disjointed given the piecemeal variety of subplots occurred, and there wasn't really much forward momentum but I didn't much mind.  I realized I should really watch fully instead of doing something else at the same time since the cinematography really is quite beautiful.

 

Do we need a blow-up at dinner every episode?  Can't Tom spend some quality time with that woman elsewhere?  It's not like they can chat at dinner anyhow.  

 

So are we supposed to believe Mrs. Drewe really thinks Edith is "unsettling" the child?  That just doesn't feel very convincing.  It was nice for Edith to have a scene with Robert.  What does she mean she doesn't want Mary's pity?  I doubt Mary would spend time pitying her.

 

As expected, Gillingham didn't take the news well.  I actually liked Blake more than usual in this one, though kinda smarmy to hit up Gillingham's ex.  Doesn't he have a job?  Why was he attending a fashion show?
 

So contrived with Anna visiting the scene of the Crime.  Wouldn't Mary have sent a messenger boy to deliver instead of Anna?

 

Shrimpy was a nice addition to this episode.

 

I like Carson generally but he needs to stop needling Moseley about the First footman stuff.  I thought he was gruff but generally fair, but he sure likes treating Moseley badly for sport.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The awkwardness after Robert stormed out of dinner cracked me up. True to her upbringing, Violet acted like it never happened and started a new topic of conversation which I found hilarious as someone who wasn't actually at that table.

[DianeDobbler]

I finally sat and properly watched this episode without interruption and my reaction is that I felt Fellowes went overboard trying to demonstrate that Bunting was all wrong for Tom, while validating her sentiments. Ergo the poor woman was made to just not stop flogging a dead horse at the dinner table "You don't know her name" and even after Daisy and Mrs. Patmore were summoned to the table (which was dreadful of Robert to do) STILL wouldn't drop it, and on no evidence. Yes, Robert is part of a system she dislikes, but she doesn't know him personally, so why is she telling him about his motives, his mindset and his manner in specific personal interactions? That's when Fellowes himself beats a dead horse. "You're not supposed to want her with him!" Trust me, all of this wasn't required to make that point. So Bunting personally got to look like an ass, while later on Daisy and Mrs. Patmore got to validate the sentiments. On top of it all, Robert's rage was a classic Robert displacement - he wanted the art dealer gone. I don't like Bunting, but I think if a fellow aristocrat had been as contrary, it would have been tolerated better.

 

Blake's better than Tony, but IMO if Mary's love life is to be the center of the show, her love interest needs to rise to the level of Matthew. Otherwise, don't center the show around it, and give other stories more time.

 

Fellowes isn't subtle, so I was actually somewhat encouraged by the Bates stuff. Fingers crossed, Bates is actually not guilty of killing Green (would he have referred so easily to his bad end if he was?) and Anna is barking up the wrong tree. Understandably, but still.

 

Love Baxter. Love that last episode they established she knows Thomas's entire family - that justifies her interest in what's happening to him, and her concern, despite Thomas's attitude.

 

Tony's attitude was gross - why didn't Mary put him in his place? I hate that stuff.

 

Edith's story continues to annoy - for God's sake Mrs. Drew. It's completely unbelievable Mrs. Drew doesn't know Edith's the mother, and completely unbelievable Mr. Drew chose not to tell her. Whyever not?

 

I did think it pretty cruel and harsh for the missing Mr. Gregson to be discussed with Granny tellng Edith it's time to drop it, only to sic her personal equivalent of Scotland Yard onto the search for her ex-lover's missing spouse.

 

Rosamund certainly didn't miss a beat when she realized Edith's kid is with the Drews.

 

I'd also add - I simply don't believe that every eligible thirty to fortysomething aristocrat in the vicinity and beyond possess movie star looks and would only pursue the thirtysomething widow Crawley, oblivious to her sister and her cousin. Edith apparently only attracts the elderly, infirm, or those who should know better but are awed by her station in life. Rose attracts nobody but, as we've seen to date, a middle-aged adulterer and a jazz singer who didn't appear to be in love with her, and who understood her infatuation with him had something to do with rebellion.

Edited October 14, 2014 by DianeDobbler

[Cherpumple]

I just remembered something that confused me- at the end of Mary's dinner with Blake, when she's telling him that she has to break it off with Tony, he said something to her about having a way to get out of it, or something, and she has a puzzled look on her face. Does anyone know what he was implying? I thought he was suggesting that she tell Tony that she's interested in another man (and Blake was offering to pretend to be that man), but I'm not sure. I wouldn't have noticed it, except for Mary's puzzlement.

[Llywela]

So are we supposed to believe Mrs. Drewe really thinks Edith is "unsettling" the child?  That just doesn't feel very convincing.  It was nice for Edith to have a scene with Robert.  What does she mean she doesn't want Mary's pity?  I doubt Mary would spend time pitying her.

 

Edith's story continues to annoy - for God's sake Mrs. Drew. It's completely unbelievable Mrs. Drew doesn't know Edith's the mother, and completely unbelievable Mr. Drew chose not to tell her. Whyever not?

I actually find it convincing that Mrs Drew feels Edith's visits are unsettling for Marigold - they would be. She was popping up randomly at all hours of the day, keeping Marigold from her routine and creating a divide between Marigold and the other children.  And I also don't think telling Mrs Drew the truth would help the situation. As an adoptive parent who did not agree up-front to an open adoption, having the birth mother come poking her nose in would be the last thing she'd want, undermining her position as Marigold's mother. I feel for Edith's distress, but she gave her child up for adoption and that means she no longer has the right to just turn up and see her whenever she feels like it. Marigold needs to be allowed to settle with her adoptive family.

[Featherhat]

d also add - I simply don't believe that every eligible thirty to fortysomething aristocrat in the vicinity and beyond possess movie star looks and would only pursue the thirtysomething widow Crawley, oblivious to her sister and her cousin.

 

Yup, Rose is the young, attractive, sparkly daughter of a Marquise (can't remember her financial situation). Mary's certainly not old but she's coming up to her mid 30s and her son is already the heir to Downton even when the entails get broken. I really don't believe her ice princess personality is so attractive to all men that they wouldn't say "sod this" and move on rather than stay in this holding pattern.

 

  woman who gets pregnant out of wedlock in Edith's class is protected, a woman of the lower classes is a whore, is called a whore and is deprived of any work BUT being a whore because the upper class says so.

 

Not just because the upper classes say so. There have apparently been a few very hushed up baby episodes that produced great shame for my family several decades later, and my family weren’t upper class and they weren’t in service/kicked out of service either. It’s better today in general, but a well off family who’s daughter becomes a teen mother and who’s family support will often be seen differently from the “Shameless” style “single mother on benefits who got pregnant for a flat tm Daily Mail”. It’s not just an issue with the class system.

 

OTOH in poorer classes who couldn’t afford “middle class morality” women just had the babies and lived in common law marriages whilst a middle class/upper class girl has ruined her chances of a “good match” and is sent abroad until the gossip dies down, not allowed to see her baby again.

 

The thing with Edith having a bastard might not be such a big deal in different situations, but its not a question of “oh she can marry a lower class man who won’t care”. There aren’t very many lower class/middle class men left either and she doesn’t get a chance to meet many of them either, and even less so if she becomes gossip central of the community.

 

Nor doesn’t she have a large pile or big dowry or a personality to make people “forget” her indiscretion. In fact people would probably be gossiping that Sir Anthony found out she was pregnant and that’s why he bolted.  If she moved to London full time (or New York) she would able to find a literary crowd who doesn’t care in the slightest and become an older “bright young thing” but currently stuck in the Downton Triangle and with her perception as “no advantages Lady Edith”, it’s a bigger deal.

[Ravenya003]

I did think it pretty cruel and harsh for the missing Mr. Gregson to be discussed with Granny tellng Edith it's time to drop it, only to sic her personal equivalent of Scotland Yard onto the search for her ex-lover's missing spouse.

 

 

I know! When Violet brought the subject up with Shrimpy, it was so quickly on the heels of her conversation with Edith that I thought Violet was asking Shrimpy to hunt down Michael.

 

This show is so much better when it's dealing with interpersonal relationships that have nothing to do with romance. The Tom/Mary stuff is great, so is Violet/Isabel becoming unlikely friends. Rose and her father had a great scene, which is astonishing considering this is only the second time Shrimpy has made an appearance, and I liked that Baxter is tentatively reaching out to Thomas even after all the shit he put her through. But every time a love story rears its ugly head, I just lose all interest.

 

In a strange way, I'm quietly rooting for Sarah Bunting - I just have this weird compulsion to defend the female characters that fandom hates. She's so hilariously obnoxious and she's all wrong for Branson, but I think if Fellowes just stopped trying to make the audience hate her guts and explore what she's like as a teacher (we haven't actually seen any of her sessions that Daisy speaks so highly of) she'd be an interesting character. If she had a bit more interaction with Isabel or Rose or even Edith I think she'd improve, but she was introduced as Tom's new love interest, which was never going to go down well in the wake of Sybil's popularity.

[Andorra]

 

but she was introduced as Tom's new love interest, which was never going to go down well in the wake of Sybil's popularity.

 

And that is what is not true. Actually most of the Tom fandom WANT a new love interest for Tom. Just a lovely one and not a harsh, prejudiced spinster who treats him like dirt and hates his family.

 

She was introduced as his "love interest" by the press, but it was clear from the very beginning, that she was not meant to be end game. When the first pictures of her appeared people were simply puzzled. So old? So plain? Such a harsh face? Such horrible clothes? Why?

 

She was not exactly ugly, but not really beautiful, too. And most of all she stood out next to the other females on the cast, who are all tall and slender and very beautiful. Sybil had been the most beautiful of them all and now the supposed "love interest" of Tom was not. She is extremely short, which makes the 20s fashion look very unflattering on her. Than they had her dressed in horrible coulors last season and gave her hats that made her look hilarious. Add to that, that the press wrote flowery things about her like "Tom can't resist her sultry looks" and they would have a "steamy affair" which was so completely wrong and far fetched that can you blame fans for thinking "WTF??" and asking if the casting department had suddenly gone mad when the casting of the show had always been absolutely spot on.

 

There was the possibilty that this was the story of the ugly duckling with a charming personality and that Tom would just be charmed by her, but as soon as she appeared on screen, it was clear that was not going to happen. Not only her looks were harsh, her voice was even harsher and her personality was far from charming. She was nosy, prejudiced and not even friendly to him. She smiled while enjoying to make him squirm.

 

So it was very clear from the beginning, that she was not a love interest and that the press had it all wrong. We were not supposed to like her nor were we supposed to think Tom was attracted to her. Allen Leech made very sure we didn't get that notion. He always kept a distance, was always very reserved, never looked at her as he did look at Sybil.

 

Still the notion she had to be a love interest stick with people, because that was what the press wrote, right?

 

That was, what had people so puzzled and annoyed. The press continued to manipulate us and wrote about the "lovely teacher" and the "blossoming romance" between Tom and Sarah. And they were "getting closer" when in reality we saw them never getting close at all. We were puzzled. Are we supposed to like her? But we hate her!

 

What annoys me as a Tom fan is how long this stupid storyline is dragging on now. I never believed her to be his love interest after I saw her on screen. I always said she would be the "middle class option" who would be perfect on paper for him but just not fitting in reality and that he was going to marry posh again. I'm still absolutely sure about that. First we had Edna as the "working class option" and then Sarah. Both are wrong and both were there to show him where he belongs.

 

But to dragg this out over 8 episodes?? When Mary got a love interest in Episode 2 after Matthew's death? That is just not fair. Tom is handsome and nice, there had to be a man shortage after the war. He has a good job and good connections, it is unrealistic that the only women he comes in contact with are awful!

 

We could have a nice, slow romantic storyline for Tom for at least half of series 4 already. Or if not series 4 then at least it should have started by now! But now we have Sarah Bunting staying until Episode 5 and no young woman is announced in the cast who could fit the description of "future love interest for Tom Branson". THAT is what is annoying and makes fans even more mad at Sarah Bunting. Not only is she awful, she is stalling things for Tom. It looks as if she will be the only "romantic interest" (if you can call her that) for Tom for the whole series. We probably will only have one single series after that and it is just not fair that the Tom Branson fans have to see him end another series lonely and sad, when Julian Fellows could have started something nice for him for AGES!

 

My personal theory is that he will end up with Rose, but that is another story.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Andorra

[NotBothered]

I just remembered something that confused me- at the end of Mary's dinner with Blake, when she's telling him that she has to break it off with Tony, he said something to her about having a way to get out of it, or something, and she has a puzzled look on her face. Does anyone know what he was implying? I thought he was suggesting that she tell Tony that she's interested in another man (and Blake was offering to pretend to be that man), but I'm not sure. I wouldn't have noticed it, except for Mary's puzzlement.

I'm not sure anyone is really sure what that's about.  I also originally thought that he was suggesting they start something up to put Tony off (or at least say they were).  I'm putting my current spec under spoiler tags because it's based off of the 5x05 episode summary, but my current theory is that

they're going to throw Mable Lane Fox back at him in the horse race next episode.

[DianeDobbler]

"We could have a nice, slow romantic storyline for Tom for at least half of series 4 already. Or if not series 4 then at least it should have started by now! But now we have Sarah Bunting staying until Episode 5 and no young woman is announced in the cast who could fit the description of "future love interest for Tom Branson". THAT is what is annoying and makes fans even more mad at Sarah Bunting. Not only is she awful, she is stalling things for Tom."

 

Right there with you. The show has done nothing with Rose that didn't immediately blare "barking up wrong tree!" and Tom's stories are with women with grating personalities. I don't think Sarah is so bad as far as what she's done and said, but I agree her looks, her voice, her dress, her height - everything reads all wrong and plays all wrong. It all signals this isn't for real, and yet, seeing that, it drags on eight episodes!

 

I still suspect this has something to do with Mary. I was recently watching some interviews and I believe Robert James-Collier said Fellowes writes as you act, and starts using what you put out there. If Fellowes isn't seeing Matthew-level interest in Mary's current love life, no matter what he does, I wouldn't put it past him to keep everyone else in a holding pattern, because she's his lead and he's not going to alter that vision simply because Matthew's gone (and also, perhaps, to not validate the importance of Dan Stevens). If that means in the final series that he pushes her and Tom together, so be it. Otherwise I simply see no excuse for Tom treading water - or Rose treading water, nor am I particularly interested in a sudden insta-love interest for Rose that turns out to be a blind alley, which is what I think we're going to get with the Atticus guy. They ought to have set up her and Tom as having a strong, close bond that perhaps neither recognized as romantic, and THEN introduced Atticus as the catalyst for Tom to realize and also Rose.

 

Back to Mrs. Drew - my primary issue is it's ridiculous she doesn't realize Edith is the mother. Her husband gave her some scenario about the mother. Here comes the thirtysomething, single lady of the house constantly at the door, constantly wanting to see Marigold. Mrs. Drew's husband and Edith at times appear conspiratorial. So what is is, Mrs. Drew? Somebody ELSE is Marigold's mom, and the Lady Edith has, separately, developed a crush on your irresistable husband. Or maybe Edith is actually the mom?

 

It's absolutely batsh*t they have Mrs. Drew not getting it.

 

Adding - further signaling that Miss Bunting is an endlessly pointlessly extended stalling device and nothing more - we constantly hear she's Tom's friend but never see the friendship. I don't WANT to see it, but it makes the whole thing an even bigger waste of time. "Let's invite Tom's buddy, Sarah Bunting." What? How are they buddies? She teaches downstairs and she and Tom never seem to chat unless Rose or Isobel or someone includes her at dinner. Even Tom at times looks like she's not his friend but he's too polite to say so. The allusion last week to America or Miss Bunting made absolutely no sense because not for a single second has he looked as if he's remotely considering her as a romantic choice. I know what's coming up and it's still stupid.

 

I guess I'm just completely frustrated at all the time spent on Mary. I don't need to see Mary at a fashion show. I think her stuff could have been crammed in in "asides" like other people's are, in less than five minutes. Two seconds with an incredulous Tony. Dinner with Blake was unnecessary - the re-meeting could have also happened in two seconds. Other "Upstairs" people's story potential, people with more story to tell at this stage, IMO, get short shrift so Fellowes can pretend a burning interest in Mary's next marriage.

Edited October 14, 2014 by DianeDobbler

[Capricasix]

I have always liked Blake more than Gillingham, and the latter certainly showed himself to be a jerk in this episode.

How old do you suppose the girls are meant to be, approximately? Despite JF's playing fast and loose with the timeline, I think Mary is about 30 or so, maybe 32, and Edith a year or two younger. Rose just "came out" in society, so that would make her late teens or early twenties, I guess.

[Andorra]

Rose was 18 when she first appeared in series 3 in 1920. So she's now 24. She came out late, because of the war, her father's career etc.

[ZulaMay]

I had a moment where I really felt for Violet because she really is trying to do what's best for Edith. If Robert was talking about how everyone was going to shun Shrimpy after his divorce, can you imagine how people would treat Edith if they knew she'd had a baby out of wedlock? I doubt there would be anyone in her social class who would deign to marry her. As old fashioned as Violet can be, she knows that Edith having a bastard would be a huge scandal and remove any chance for her to marry someone titled. I'm not saying that marriage is the only goal in life, but no one in that family wants Edith to end up a spinster.

 

 

No one wants Edith to end up a spinster?  That rings false.  They have done nothing to help her marital prospects.  Edith landed Anthony and Violet discouraged and disparaged him, then told Robert not to intervene when Anthony was about to jilt her at the altar.  The next episode she was telling Edith to "stop whining and find something else to do!" and saying "maybe Edith isn't cut out for domestic life."

 

I see no sign that Violet is trying to prevent spinsterhood for Edith. If anything she is partly responsible for it and even seems to think it is her path in life.  She isn't interested in helping her marital prospects:  she wants to avoid a family scandal.  She even told Edith that what's best for her and what's best for the family are "the same thing."  In other words, Edith needs to forget about the kid because that's what's best for the family.  

 

I actually think Mrs. Drewe is being kind of unreasonable about Marigold.  She says Edith's visits are "unsettling" her but we have seen no sign that is the case.   Marigold seems perfectly happy to have another woman doting on her and has shown no sign of distress or confusion.  The one who is being "unsettled" by the visits is Mrs. Drewe herself.  She is jealous and fears Edith and her husband are soft on each other.  I don't blame her for being threatened and annoyed but Edith is not "unsettling" Marigold.  That's in her head at this point.

 

"I still suspect this has something to do with Mary. I was recently watching some interviews and I believe Robert James-Collier said Fellowes writes as you act, and starts using what you put out there. If Fellowes isn't seeing Matthew-level interest in Mary's current love life, no matter what he does, I wouldn't put it past him to keep everyone else in a holding pattern, because she's his lead and he's not going to alter that vision simply because Matthew's gone (and also, perhaps, to not validate the importance of Dan Stevens). If that means in the final series that he pushes her and Tom together, so be it. Otherwise I simply see no excuse for Tom treading water - or Rose treading water, nor am I particularly interested in a sudden insta-love interest for Rose that turns out to be a blind alley, which is what I think we're going to get with the Atticus guy. They ought to have set up her and Tom as having a strong, close bond that perhaps neither recognized as romantic, and THEN introduced Atticus as the catalyst for Tom to realize and also Rose."

 

​You know, I did worry about him doing this with Tom/Mary but I don't think so.  They have a nice bond but Mary doesn't seem likely to take her eyes off the prize, which is a prestigious match.  She is acting every bit the snob she always has been, more so even.  I swear her toffy-nosed accent and cool haughtiness increase every episode.  Her interests haven't changed.  She's going to fashion shows, and meanwhile Rose is turning down the invite so she can go work with her refugees in a dowdy apron.  Two episodes earlier she lamented how the Russians had been torn away from a "normal life" of "shopping and lunching and dancing."  A fashion show in London?  Last season she would have jumped at that, but this time she had more important things to do.  It's a lightning-fast development but it's still a development.

 

I think it's more likely Atticus is a red herring as you say, and she and Tom have been kept in a holding pattern for each other.  We saw a bit of interaction in 5.01 that seemed semi-flirty, she is taking an interest in his life, and she's starting to show some of Sybil's active empathy and sense of purpose.  She also told her father that she won't marry unless she is "absolutely in love" and asked for a blank check.  Granted, Atticus seems ideal from what we know....certainly someone with whom she could fall in love.  But it all seems rather rushed and convenient, especially coming on the heels of that conversation with her father (which seemed kind of sudden and anvilish IMO).  

 

I totally agree that if they wanted to put Rose with Tom they should have given us more build-up, something more than a sweet friendly moment or two and some matchmaking on her part.  But it seems they might be shifting Rose into Sybil territory instead, which they expect will make a sudden attraction between her and Tom more credible?  IDK.  We'll see.

 

Maybe I say this as someone who detests the idea of Tom and Mary.  Partly because as many have said, it is fantastical that every man who visits the house would fall for her.  Rose is there and yes, even Edith, who DOES have "a smashing figure" as well as lovely skin and eyes.  And neither of them is icy and prickly like Mary.

 

I think despite the age difference, Tom would be more likely to fall for Rose than Mary.  They are far more suited to each other in terms of emotional makeup and outlook.  They're both open hearts who value love over status, both warm and affectionate, both able to transcend class barriers in their personal relationships, both interested in the world outside the Downton/Toff bubble.  They're romantics and Mary most certainly is not. She's not going to marry someone she doesn't love just for status and money, but she WOULD hold out for someone who can give her all three.

 

I think Tom and Rose would both marry for love and sacrifice other things. "The rest is detail."  Mary will want the whole package and would stay single rather than compromise.

Edited October 14, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Llywela]

Rose was 18 when she first appeared in series 3 in 1920. So she's now 24. She came out late, because of the war, her father's career etc.

She's 22 now, surely. If she was 18 in 1920 and it is now 1924, that makes her 22.

[Andorra]

Sorry, lol. My mistake. Bad in Maths.

[ZoloftBlob]

What are the ratings looking like?

[Ravenya003]

Oh, one other thing I found amusing was the hilarious proficiency of the police. They're following up every miniscule lead! They're questioning people over a death that happened years ago! They've got a plainclothes policeman at Gillingham's house!

 

Maybe I'm just used to the police being completely useless in movies/television, but these guys are practically an elite task force.

[ZulaMay]

What are the ratings looking like?

Down over 100,000 to 7.2 million.  X Factor got 8.5 or so.

 

That's just overnights but the overnights and the totals have been declining steadily.  It started off the season at 8.4.  Still high ratings though.

 

I expect it to plateau at some point, because the 100,000 drop is not as big as the drop from the previous weeks.  So maybe it will level out at around 7 million and hover there for the rest of the season?

 

This episode was better than the last IMO, but not everyone thought so.  And the Bunting scene might have just been one too many for people.  I think they overplayed their hand with that.  Maybe the ratings will go back up when/if she leaves.  Or maybe Tony's outburst will provoke more interest and lure people back? Because that was more fun than he's ever been.

Edited October 14, 2014 by ZulaMay

[DianeDobbler]

As to social stigmas around illegitimacy, etc., and without trivializing everything, I honestly believe that in the end, it all depends upon the attitudes of the family that has the so-called "stigma", as well as the assets/standing of the family/person in the position of the "fallen" man or woman. I recall at one point Edith saying she wasn't Sybil, she couldn't pull this off. I believe that made sense. I think Sybil COULD have pulled it off, and via a combination of looks, social standing, charm, genuineness and attitude, might not have seen her prospects dim at all, at least not among anyone with whom she'd care to be linked. The current Countess occupying the real Highclere wrote a bio of the Countess who was actually countess during the Downton Abbey era. This was the illegitimate daughter of a bachelor Rothschild. Instead of hiding her away, as was the custom of the era, he pretty much doted on her and showered her with advantages, showcasing her exactly as if she were the daughter of a lawful marriage. He was filthy rich, and it just so happens that if you're filthy rich, and your daughter, legit or illegit, is the apple of your eye, people suck it up and follow suit. His daughter became Countess, and in short order was considered to have an impeccable pedigree. When you look back at that era (stretching for a number of decades) $$$ went a long way to trumping convention. It was the era when the landed gentry and the nobles were feeling the financial pinch, and if an infusion of cash meant hooking up with some gorgeous, filthy rich heiress whose mummy wasn't married to daddy, then that's what happened. Edith's position is she appears to have a trust of some sort from her granddad, and earns money as a columnist. I guess to assess her position, one has to figure what she wants out of life. If she wants to find a substitute Gregson, I think there are plenty of men of the world who would understand her position and it wouldn't deter them. If it's "OMG, can't be a blight on the family!" I get it, but it's a country seat, and if managed with the right attitude, they could get past this. I guess it would help if Edith had way much more money, but that would also probably help Sybbie too.

 

ZulaMay, as to Tom/Mary, I agree that if we're discussing what's in character, they don't suit. It wouldn't happen. I was speculating as to Fellowes' priorities, and I see Mary as his number one. Not only does she warrant the number one story, whether the audience cares or not, but the audience must be made to feel the same. They can't go "enough of her - let's see more of Tom!" If they do, then Tom's gonna go on ice, and, if push comes to shove, hook up with Mary. Mary/Matthew were very popular. If you like Tony, if you like Blake (I switched, and now prefer Blake to Tony), it's not the same as CARING. I really don't care about either. Fellowes wants us to care (about Mary's love life). Good luck, Fellowes.

 

The writing may follow the acting, but only to a point. I think his hierarchy is pretty fixed. My big interests in this show (during a binge watch long after it began), were Mary/Matthew, and then Thomas's storyline. I was very gripped by the story when he was nearly driven out of Downton. Since Matthew's death, I continue to care about Thomas and want a real S3 type story for him, and I care a lot about Tom (and Rose, as, IMO, the presumptive Tom love interest). I'm beyond frustrated that we're still meant to care about Mary's love life. We all know it's a soap opera. If they cast somebody who had powerful chemistry with her, it would only enhance the story. Sob, Matthew, and now this guy, and how will they go forward, blah blah blah. That would be great. It's not like I'm keeping a candle in the window for Matthew. As it happens, her new love interests are perfectly fine but not worth tuning in on a Sunday for (and neither is she, as she is now).So I'm frustrated that stories I believe are untold and have so much potential (Thomas, Rose and (I hope) Tom), go in circles for TWO SEASONS until we tell Julian - oh yes, I'll stay home Sunday to watch Mary realize she prefers Charles Blake to Tony after all!

Edited October 15, 2014 by DianeDobbler

[ZulaMay]

I get what you're saying.  They pushed M/M for two-three seasons as Couple Numero Uno.  It worked, in part because they had good chemistry, people cared about Matthew as an individual character and he was the total package.  Mary was also a more nuanced and sympathetic character then.  I never cared much about her but I was happy enough for them to get together.  Now?  I think she's grown two-dimensional and unsympathetic and I couldn't care less whom she marries, if anyone.  

 

Tom on the other hand I like every bit as much as I did when he was with Sybil, even if I think they've tamed him too much.  At least he's a nice guy with actual problems that make him sympathetic, who seems to have kept his wife's memory alive for longer than Mary did Matthew's and for longer than her family did.  Or at least her father.

 

But I think JF DOES care about Mary getting that title and money/status she always coveted.  If she doesn't remarry she'll always just be Lady Mary, and if she marries Tom she'll be nobody.  That's not who she is and that's not who JF wants her to be either IMO.  My money is on Blake, for a number of reasons.  Does the audience like him or care about him as they did Matthew?  Not really, but JF doesn't care.  He'll try to paint Blake as The One by having him give Mary what she wants and needs (as portrayed by JF).  He knows people will watch no matter that their hearts aren't in it as much anymore.  

 

That said I realize he doesn't care about the other stories as he does Mary's. But I still care more about other characters and I always did.  I'd take two minutes of Sybil/Tom time (or Tom/Rose time if that's what we get) over ten minutes of Mary with any of her men.  And that's probably about what we'll get when it comes to Tom's love life.  But if it turns out decently I'll gladly take that over Mary's Merry-Go-Round of Men.  I find Tom/Allen Leech a lot more attractive and sympathetic than either Tony or Blake (although I don't mind Blake at all). 

 

If on the other hand JF turns Tom into Matthew 2.0, falling so madly in love with Mary he'll forget who he is, love her for her "fascinating" flaws and serve all her goals and needs?  Then he won't be the least bit attractive to me anymore.  Sorry, I cherish Sybil's memory too much to stomach that.

Edited October 15, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Andorra]

I feel that I can't really say much about "Mary got boring", since she never was that interesting to me in the first place. I mean, I actually like her, I always did and I still do. I love things like the fashion show etc, but I never was interested in the oh-so-wonderful love story with Matthew and I'm not interested in her new love stories.

 

So for me nothing has changed. I get my little glimpses of my favourite characters, while I watch Mary getting paired with someone. That was the same in series 1 and still is the same in series 4.

 

What frustrates me right now is not that we see too much Mary. For everyone who is not a fan of Mary  it has always been like that. But the problem for me personally is that Tom is with this horrible Bunting person for 8 episodes! I can watch endless Mary storylines or even endure Banna storylines, that are really the most boring stories for me ever shown on a TV screen, if I just get my 5 minutes nice Tom plus my other favourites (Mrs Hughes, Isobel, Rose).

 

The show always has boring moments for most of the viewers, since no one probably relates to all the characters. I know it and I don't mind it. I also don't mind the show moving slow. I actually like it most of the time. But the storylines in general have to move forward at SOME point. I'm getting "Tom is torn, Tom is lonely, Tom thinks about moving to America for 1 and a half series now" and it is getting old.

And then every week we get exactly the same scene for him. Somone invites Bunting to dinner even though he doesn't want it really and then she comes and is awful. Three times in a row, I mean seriously? For 4 episodes the same repetitive scene again and again??

[saki]

 

So for me nothing has changed. I get my little glimpses of my favourite characters, while I watch Mary getting paired with someone. That was the same in series 1 and still is the same in series 4.

 

Same for me.  I have never been particularly interested in Mary and I continue not to be.  Then again, I've never been particularly interested in Tom either - mostly because the writing for him has been so inconsistent.  The character never made much sense - why would an Irish revolutionary even take the job at Downton in the first place? - but makes even less sense now.

 

Things I enjoyed about this episode:

 

Lord Merton's proposal - so sweet!  Both my husband and I were pleading with Isobel to just say yes.

 

Daisy's speech about how much her horizons had been broadened by Sarah Bunting

 

Mrs Hughes and Carson gossiping together about the dinner drama.

 

The little flash we saw of the old smiley, happy Anna.

 

Don't know if I enjoyed it per se but I thought it was funny that Mary basically imagined Mabel to be like Lavinia...

 

I also laughed when Robert commented on Mary's priorities when she said she was going to a dress show rather than an estate meeting.

 

Things I didn't like:

 

The fact that Blake is still into Mary - after all this time, surely he would have moved on?  She is really not that great and has kept him hanging for years at this point.

 

Yet more of Edith and the Drews.  I like Edith generally but this storyline is horribly written and I am tired of it.

 

The way that MD somehow manages to make her line delivery more monotone and slow every week.  She plays Mary like she's recovering from a stroke.

 

Random speculation:

 

I really really hope that it turns out that Gillingham doesn't really like Mary at all and is so upset because he has borrowed money on the expectation of marrying her.

[darkestboy]

Another okay episode really.

Hoping Cora cheats on Robert. He's becoming more annoying than usual. The scene with him and Bunting was just grating really.

Now it's being made to look like Anna killed Green. I just want this storyline done with now.

Gillingham doesn't take rejection well and him and Mary still don't have any chemistry. Mary and Blake on the other do.

Nice to see more scenes with Violet and Isobel, especially with the former's 'beau' as well.

Poor Edith but again, another storyline that's feeling dragged out.

Thomas's storyline is interesting though, 7/10

[ZulaMay]

 

The way that MD somehow manages to make her line delivery more monotone and slow every week.  She plays Mary like she's recovering from a stroke.

 

Random speculation:

 

I really really hope that it turns out that Gillingham doesn't really like Mary at all and is so upset because he has borrowed money on the expectation of marrying her.

I agree about MD's delivery.  It was always restrained but now it is robotic.  She is robotic in general:  she barely moves her body or facial muscles and even her eyebrow action is not what it once was.  What's up with that?  Mary has always seemed perpetually bored but even more so now, and that makes her boring.  Her one-liners are not as funny as Violet's and the monotone delivery doesn't help.