S03.E10: Left Behind

[apinknightmare]

I think everyone is basically in agreement here--we think Felicity probably did the right thing, or was at least right in thinking that Dig and Roy had no chance against the giant truck full of dudes with machine guns. So the issue is, why are some other viewers blaming Felicity? And I agree with you, @Angel12d, that the choice to have Dig and Roy both treat Felicity as though she blew it let some viewers come to the same conclusion. If the writers' intent was not to make it look that way, I think they should have had either Dig or Roy come around in the end and acknowledge that she was right, and they didn't have a chance.

 

You're right, we are all in agreement. I guess I just didn't put that much stock into Roy or Diggle objecting because I think they were so focused on getting the dude who was trying to undo everything that Oliver had been working for that they wouldn't have ever admitted that they should've backed off. Kind of like how an injured football player wouldn't have wanted to be taken out of a game. But yeah, maybe it would've been better for them to admit she was right. I just...they were on foot against guys with machine guns in a van. To me it's obvious that Digg and Roy were the emotional ones not being reasonable, haha. Apparently it's not that obvious to some of the viewing audience.

Edited January 22, 2015 by apinknightmare

[catrox14]

I wonder what if Oliver had been the one to make the call to shut that door if there would be this criticism.  Felicity made a call to protect her partners.  Oliver has made those calls many times himself.  Not sure why Felicity is getting grief for this.

[KirkB]

I think the point Diggle and Roy were upset about wasn't Felicity shutting the doors on them, but letting Brick and his men get away with the files that would have kept all the guys in prison. They didn't want all of Oliver's work to be undone. The fact they had already shown they couldn't stop Brick or his men, and that Felicity pretty much saved their lives, seems to have gone over their heads.

[KenyaJ]

So, no one's mentioned this, but am I the only one who thinks that Laurel took the news that Oliver's dead way too easily? She didn't even seem remotely upset by it at all. I know they don't mean the same thing to each other that they did when the Gambit went down, and maybe she just doesn't have any more tears to cry for Oliver Queen, but I did think that was strange. Did they purposely downplay this in order to give Felicity "losing the man she loves feels" spotlight, or maybe it was to cement her single-minded focus on the buckles? 

 

I keep thinking about the question to MG from a fan asking why Oliver didn't say goodbye to Laurel before he left to fight Ra's. MG was spot on with his reply, from a practical standpoint. But Oliver's failure to say goodbye to Laurel and Laurel's complete non-reaction to the "confirmation" of his death just emphasize their lack of importance in each other's lives. I'm sure it's probably unintentional by the writers, but the fact that they don't even think to write these emotional beats for Oliver and Laurel says everything about how superfluous Laurel is to the show. If the character weren't named Laurel Dinah Lance, she would have already been written off by now for having no purpose in the narrative.

[dtissagirl]

I really feel like the sentiment behind the people who think Felicity was in the wrong to stop Dig and Roy from running after a heavily armed van is that "it wasn't her place", you know? As if in the caste system of who protects whom on this show, Felicity must always be in the bottom tier.

Edited January 22, 2015 by dancingnancy

[NumberCruncher]

So I finally broke down and watched the episode. What ended up convincing me was (surprisingly) Campea's After Show. What I find interesting is that in all of the discussions I've been reading online, there has been so much emphasis Felicity turning out the lights in the lair and/or not showing enough emotion, yet so little discussion about, as Campea pointed out, her essentially becoming the de facto leader of Team Arrow in Oliver's absence. To me, that's huge and a testament to just how important the character has become rather than being seen as simply "comic relief". As such, it's baffling that the big debate is over her flipping a light switch.

I found myself loving Merlyn of all people in this episode--not because I love the character per se--but Barrowman gives him such charisma and duplicity that I can't help it. Glad to see Thea a bit more, but she's still being underused, IMO. Everyone gets their panties in a twist over female characters competing for screentime, but I would have no problem seeing more Thea or even Tatsu on my screen, even if Felicity is my favorite.

I also loved Diggle's quips in an otherwise heavy episode, but I have to say that even that isn't enough to make this compelling. If anything, this just reaffirmed that the show doesn't work without Oliver and what SA brings to the role. The showrunners and the actors can try to sell it another way, but sometimes it just is what it is.

[statsgirl]

A woman stepping up to take charge of men when the leader is missing?  No wonder they're upset.

 

Men admitting they're wrong or can't do something? Not real big in my real world life.

 

I can understand Felicity not getting rid of Sara's stuff (although I would have buried them with her) but she should at least have put them away in a drawer somewhere. Having them on view all the time is just going to keep reinforcing the bad.

 

Based on their interactions so far, if Ray doesn't know about Felicity helping the Arrow, does he think she's emotionally unstable? Is he concerned that his brilliant employee is crying all the time? I had a friend/co-worker who had a super dramatic life and was always crying at work. It was a bit weird and awkward. You want to be there for them, but you also want the dramatics to die down.

 

 

But then, Ray isn't the most normal of people himself.

Edited January 22, 2015 by statsgirl

[pootlus]

Laurel's complete non-reaction to the "confirmation" of his death

 

I'm not sure that is a product of script or direction.  Non-reaction is kind of a staple in the Cassidy stable.

[Password]

I agree. Felicity made a decision a leader would normally do, and under normal conditions we wouldn't even be talking about it. If Oliver wasn't dead and we saw Dig and Roy getting their asses kicked which leads to Felicity making a unilateral decision, I don't think we'd really be discussing it. But because Oliver IS dead, it was an emotional, selfish decision.

[BkWurm1]

her essentially becoming the de facto leader of Team Arrow in Oliver's absence. To me, that's huge and a testament to just how important the character has become rather than being seen as simply "comic relief".

 

It was IMO a very natural transition.  That nobody is talking about it is in a way a good sign.  That there' hasn't been conversation about it seems to say there is nothing controversial about her taking up that leadership role...except for the part where she made a choice to keep her team alive.  That part of her leadership is getting raked over the coals.   

[catrox14]

Even if Felicity made the decision to keep her team safe because Oliver was dead, to me it's not different than an officer on the field of battle watching soldiers falll and being emotionally affected and then deciding that retreat and regroup is the better choice.  If they still had a chance to fight successfully then I would say it was more controviersial but Roy and Diggle had already lost that battle. Felicity wanted to keep her soldiers safe to fight another day. MMV

[catrox14]

No, I agree with that. But I think it was all GIRLY EMOTIONS and crap. 

 

Oliver has made the same choices based on emotion when he benched Diggle. This is pretty much the same thing. 

[apinknightmare]

The feeling I got from the Felicity closing the door thing was that they were trying to show she was wrong for doing it. That she made a decision based on emotion rather than it being a tactical maneuver. I think the way they handled it, by making her emotional rather than pointing out that they had no chance, and yes, the guys never coming around and thanking her for saving their bacon, tells me that's what the show was trying to say. I wish they'd handled it differently.

If they were trying to show her being wrong they did a terrible job of it by having Digg and Roy clearly losing and out of their depth.

[silversauce]

This was a great episode!! It was kind of The Diggle Show, and I loved every second: First Diggle said what everyone else in the fandom was thinking about Felicity being in denial (poor girl), then he went out into the field with Roy like a BAMF and got into an awesome fist fight with Vinnie Jones, then he pulled out a second gun in response to Meryln's "guns annoy me" boast just to fuck with Merlyn and practically made us all die laughing, and finally he delivered that tearjerker line about being the bodyguard who failed to protect and made us all struggle not to collapse into a puddle of feels. Amazing job by Ramsey.

 

Roy finally seeing some action was really nice and his acrobatics in that pipe scene were great... I think he makes a great addition to Core Team Arrow. Speaking of, with Laurel finally suiting up as Black Canary she'll probably be joining the family soon... I actually found her pretty enjoyable this episode - the way she comforted Felicity with such a personal declaration about Oliver having previously defied death before was a nice moment. And her spotting the mask in the cave was a nice nod to Sara. The only thing I was 'meh' about was seeing her in the suit so soon. I'm not sure she's gonna rock it yet. 

 

Also, maybe I'm the only one who felt this, but I was touched by what Oliver did for Maseo. Even under the pressure of a mission he was still thinking about Maseo's pain and wanted to do something to help. And Felicity's present-day comment to Diggle about how it was always Oliver who made it out on the other side, making her believe that saving the city with him was possible... It made me think about what Barry said to Oliver, about how he is the one who can inspire people, not the Arrow, but Oliver Queen. Ugh so heroic.

 

I liked this side of Ray that we got to see this episode too, the more serious side. He's going to need that resolve if he wants to be a hero. 

 

And that Emily Bett Rickards.... I was hanging on Felicity's every word this episode. The way she expressed her grief was... fascinating. I'm guessing she'll be back in the field next week, but for now, it was interesting seeing how torn up she was manifesting in all of her decisions, rather than her actually just saying what she was feeling. Holy crap, she might be more similar to Oliver than I initially realized...

 

I honestly enjoyed this episode way more than I ever expected to so I really have nothing negative to say. Shocker.

Edited January 22, 2015 by silversauce

[statsgirl]

Oliver has made the same choices based on emotion when he benched Diggle. This is pretty much the same thing. 

True, but at the end of the episode, Diggle said he was right to do that.

 

Will we get Diggle and Roy saying the same to Felicity next episode?

[apinknightmare]

True, but at the end of the episode, Diggle said he was right to do that.

Will we get Diggle and Roy saying the same to Felicity next episode?

Maybe he and Roy go have a chat with her after they implore Laurel to stop being a dumbass.

[Password]

Well if Laurel decides to invoke the power of Malcolm Merlyn soon, I don't really see how.

I just cannot wait to see the writers spin the story so that trusting Merlz is actually an option.

[tv echo]

After watching the fan video, "Oliver & Felicity | 5 Stages of Grief "He's gone" (posted in the Clock Tower thread), I was wowed by EBR's portrayal of grief.  So I really don't understand the complaints about her acting - not emotional enough?  too emotional?  whiny?  huh? 

 

I much prefer her just-on-the-edge, somewhat stoic expression of grief to someone else's loud wailing and crying.  I've always liked acting where you can read someone's emotions just by looking at their face and can tell they're there just below the surface.  (A perfect example is the close-up shot of Katniss/JLaw's face at the end of Catching Fire, where she says not a word but her face changes from anger to grief to defiant determination.)

Edited January 22, 2015 by tv echo

[TVHappy9463]

This show has really evolved from the first season, it has become character driven story with "action", instead of just being the super hero fights the villain of the week. Felicity broke my heart. Her final scene with Ray was great, and Branden Routh was such a great addition to the cast and the forward motion of the show.  Well done Arrow!  John Barrowman elevates his scenes and everyone in them.  

[Chaser]

I want a conversation between Lyla and Felicity where Lyla thanks Felicity for making that call. Looking at the big picture it may not have been the best one to make, but Diggle and Roy were on the edge and pumped up. They couldn't win. Felicity put Diggle and Roy first.

[Guest]

I really want to know how Oliver didn't end up with broken bones because that drop off the cliff was HUGE. Seriously, not even a broken leg or arm? Is he human?! Also, is Tatsu a surgeon now? I thought Oliver would have had serious internal injuries. I'mma need some explanation next week. 

I'm also wondering why Thea thought the Arrow would know where her brother was, unless she's realized Oliver is the Arrow and was testing out that theory on Roy? If she can figure out that Roy is Arsenal then she can pretty much figure out that her brother is the Arrow. It just doesn't add up.

 

And on that note, how do Felicity, Diggle and Roy just get away with standing in Verdant in the middle of the day without Thea noticing. I can hand wave a lot of things but that's just dumb.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Guest

[ottoDbusdriver]

I really want to know how Oliver didn't end up with broken bones because that drop off the cliff was HUGE. Seriously, not even a broken leg or arm? Is he human?! Also, is Tatsu a surgeon now? I thought Oliver would have had serious internal injuries. I'mma need some explanation next week.

 

Umm, yeah -- it wasn't like he fell off a 2 story building or tumbled down the side of a mountain made of marshmallows.  'The Climb' appeared to be at least a thousand feet high if not much more of a mountain made of solid rock -- he should be little more than shattered meatbag.

[Password]

I really want to know how Oliver didn't end up with broken bones because that drop off the cliff was HUGE. Seriously, not even a broken leg or arm? Is he human?!

Exactly! I didn't realise how far it was but then the camera zoomed all. The way. Down. That drop alone would've broken his neck considering how he fell.

[apinknightmare]

Exactly! I didn't realise how far it was but then the camera zoomed all. The way. Down. That drop alone would've broken his neck considering how he fell.

 

Well, Maseo did say that he called Tatsu in to bring him back to life, not to heal him. Unless that's just a big 'ol misdirect like Roy hearing the exact words Sara uttered when she died was just so we'd believe it could actually be him who killed her. But I was watching Oliver's glistening chest while the camera panned up to his face and he didn't appear to be breathing. Was that gasping breath meant to be his first after being brought back, or just his first conscious one? I hope it's the latter because I don't want some weird magic on this show. 

[Actionmage]

Part of the Brick & Co,. escape that made me smile was, as the truck was hauling out of the facility, a box fell into the walkway in the ground.

 

I grinned and thought, "Well, someone's still getting a trial!" I hope that wasn't a blooper that was left in because it was midnight and folks were tired. I hope it has some repercussion. I kept hoping to hear about the one box that didn't get nicked, and that that was how the eventual hunt was going to start. Or Brick and a minion going over the evidence and making smart-ass cracks, when Brick's all "That wanker, so-and-so; where's his kit?"  dun-dun-DUN!

 

#Tell Everybody!

Edited January 22, 2015 by Actionmage

[tv echo]

never-forget-your-memories asked:

That editing with the hands was beyond perfect

 

That wasn’t editing.  That shit was planned.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

Edited January 22, 2015 by tv echo

[bethy]

I really want to know how Oliver didn't end up with broken bones because that drop off the cliff was HUGE. Seriously, not even a broken leg or arm? Is he human?! Also, is Tatsu a surgeon now? I thought Oliver would have had serious internal injuries. I'mma need some explanation next week.

 

 

That snow on the ledge cushioned his fall. Obviously. :)

[bethy]

You're right, we are all in agreement. I guess I just didn't put that much stock into Roy or Diggle objecting because I think they were so focused on getting the dude who was trying to undo everything that Oliver had been working for that they wouldn't have ever admitted that they should've backed off. Kind of like how an injured football player wouldn't have wanted to be taken out of a game. But yeah, maybe it would've been better for them to admit she was right. I just...they were on foot against guys with machine guns in a van. To me it's obvious that Digg and Roy were the emotional ones not being reasonable, haha. Apparently it's not that obvious to some of the viewing audience.

 

I think everyone involved was reacting emotionally - all three of them had just lost Oliver and are still mourning the loss of Sara. To me it seems like Diggle and Roy's emotion was anger, which exhibited itself in fighting. Felicity's emotion was fear of losing more of the people close to her, which exhibited itself in protecting. I think BOTH are legitimate, understandable reactions to grief. What I'm hoping is that later on there will be some acknowledgement of that.

[romantic idiot]

Most of my thoughts have already been expressed, so I'm just left with a question. The sonic device probably blew out the crooks' eardrums right? So who the hell was Laurel talking to?

[statsgirl]

It's funny how people want these characters to be perfect.  But perfect characters can't have character growth because that comes from the flaws, and no character growth makes for boring TV.

 

Maybe he and Roy go have a chat with her after they implore Laurel to stop being a dumbass.

I'll look forward to that.  And to Lyla thanking Felicity for saving John's life.

 

I just realized that at the beginning of the episode, the bad guy on the ground says to Roy "Who the hell are you?"  Roy decks him without a word.  At the end, the bad guy asks Laurel "Who the hell are you?"  Laurel replies "I'm the justice you can't outrun" and decks him with the staff.  Personally speaking, I think it would have worked better without the dialogue -- just Laurel becoming Arsenal while Roy and Diggle are out.  The line of dialogue is both ridiculous and makes it about Laurel herself rather than about justice.

 

And was she just going to leave the bad guys there? Or would she have called the police for a clean-up on aisle 5?

 

Malcolm Merlyn went looking for Oliver at night, with a lantern.  No wonder he didn't see his body. But why at night carrying a light that would draw attention to himself?

[apinknightmare]

The line of dialogue is both ridiculous and makes it about Laurel herself rather than about justice.

 

I don't actually think her moment as BC was that bad, generally speaking. She used Sara's sonic device to give her the upper hand, she hit a guy in the face with the staff, not exactly difficult. But then, then she had to go and say that ridiculous line. It's just way too early to be quippy. Shut up.

Exactly. I'm not saying I felt what Felicity did was wrong, I'm saying that by having them show Felicity was emotionally compromised and did it purely for emotional reasons, plus Diggle and Roy coming down on her as hard as they did and never apologizing for it, it felt like they were saying to the viewer that Felicity isn't doing her job right any more, because she's too emotional and wasn't thinking clearly. That if she had been thinking clearly, she would never have closed that door. 

 

I get what you're saying, but they did a terrible job of conveying this. If they wanted to go full-on Felicity is wrong and too emotional to be making decisions, they shouldn't have had Diggle and Roy getting their asses kicked in that fight or had that emotional decision Felicity made be the right one. I think maybe there will be an apology in the next episode, as they come together as a team again and try to figure out how to work together in their new normal without Oliver. 

Edited January 22, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Hiddenpick]

The birth of a brand new villain - Felicity Smoak, the one who turns off the lights.  The body count will rise as scores of people are found dead in darkened rooms, having tripped and broken their necks. 

 

Say this about Ray - at least he's taking the Iron Man approach of wearing advanced technology for his crusade against injustice rather than going out there in leather.  Laurel also had the good sense to use those sonic bombs - she hasn't had to show any real fighting skills or lack thereof.

ROTFL...this is brilliant

[tv echo]

If you think this episode was designed primarily to build up Laurel as the BC, then you have to read the hilarious Pajiba review posted in the Starling City media thread here.

Edited January 22, 2015 by tv echo

[steelyis]

So I finally broke down and watched the episode. What ended up convincing me was (surprisingly) Campea's After Show. What I find interesting is that in all of the discussions I've been reading online, there has been so much emphasis Felicity turning out the lights in the lair and/or not showing enough emotion, yet so little discussion about, as Campea pointed out, her essentially becoming the de facto leader of Team Arrow in Oliver's absence. To me, that's huge and a testament to just how important the character has become rather than being seen as simply "comic relief". As such, it's baffling that the big debate is over her flipping a light switch.

 

 

Felicity being the shot caller would have added much needed unpredictability to an entirely predictable episode.

[silversauce]

I'm honestly shocked as to how many people are complaining about Felicity turning off the lights. It's not like she changed all the codes and blew the place up. She was upset, it was symbolic, and if Roy or Diggle wanted to see they could've hauled ass up the steps and turned them back on. 

 

Yeah, it was clearly done for dramatic impact. That's all.

 

If anything could take away my enjoyment of this episode, it would be the people who're continually harping on the most inane things to justify bashing a character.

 

So, no one's mentioned this, but am I the only one who thinks that Laurel took the news that Oliver's dead way too easily? She didn't even seem remotely upset by it at all. I know they don't mean the same thing to each other that they did when the Gambit went down, and maybe she just doesn't have any more tears to cry for Oliver Queen, but I did think that was strange. Did they purposely downplay this in order to give Felicity "losing the man she loves feels" spotlight, or maybe it was to cement her single-minded focus on the buckles? 

 

Not criticizing her, I just think it's interesting. 

 

Well for one, Laurel didn't really get much of a chance to open up and react.... all her closest friends are dead. And it's possible she is in her own state of denial, because she hasn't fully decided to believe Oliver is gone forever (Spoiler: He isn't). But even if he's just gone away for a long while, it's still painful, and if I had to guess I'd think she's probably tired of indulging that pain. Tired of crying. Tired of mourning. She wants to try something else for a change. She saw Sara's mask and she thought, "I'm going to try fighting." 

 

I think Felicity's "stop everyone I care about from super-ing" stance is interesting, because it's identical in many ways to the classic male-hero, mainpain trope where the hero side-lines/lies to/cotton-balls the women in his life in the name of "protecting them."  Often that move smacks of it being less about protecting the girl and more about protecting the guy's feelings.  It's crap logic, especially when it begins to cast light on the female being a mere extension of the man, unable to make her own calls.

 

So to see Felicity pull the "protective" crap

 

I really don't understand peoples' issue with this 'reasoning'. Sure it's not really rational, it's actually irrational (I mean quick do the math: Felicity + Diggle + Roy = saving the lives of countless Starling city citizens), but that's a side effect of being human. It's very clear that when a person is being protective of someone they care about, on some level, it is out of selfishness. This is nothing new. I agree it is unfortunate that it often comes in the form of the Male hero keeping the Female love interest out of harm's way, but when you think about it from the perspective of the character and empathize with them, you realize that you would likely be selfish in that situation too. I guess what I'm saying is that the 'protective crap' need not exclusively be thought of as the man towards his woman, but rather the human towards their cherished person [people], at least for me. Sucks that it is so often framed as only the former, but what Felicity did was understandable, especially on the heels of losing two very important people she cared about. 

Edited January 23, 2015 by silversauce

[Jediknight]

I really want to know how Oliver didn't end up with broken bones because that drop off the cliff was HUGE. Seriously, not even a broken leg or arm? Is he human?! Also, is Tatsu a surgeon now? I thought Oliver would have had serious internal injuries. I'mma need some explanation next week.

As strange as it sounds, I find that believable.  The human body is screwed up, people's parachutes don't open up when they're skydiving, the crash into the ground, and maybe get a broken toe.  Someone steps off a curb wrong, and well, they completely screw up their back.  There was a wrestler named Lita, who 10 years ago had a match with Trish Stratus (Canada's greatest export), Lita had a history of neck injuries, during the match Lita dove to the outside onto Trish, and when she hit the ground, her head bent back like a Pez dispenser hell her entire body was in a ball bent backwards, but she was perfectly fine.  A few weeks she has another match with Trish where she jumped off the apron onto Trish, perfectly normal, but her leg hit wrong and she completely shredded her knee.

 

So I can buy Oliver not having a broken bone from that fall.

[BunsenBurner]

In regards to the turning the lights out scene with Felicity.

She was walking up the stairs when the lights were turned out. I hope I'm correct in this, therefore how did she turn out the lights? We have been shown on several occasions that they must come all the way down the stairs and go to a lever to turn the lights on.

[Perfect Xero]

I think that Malcolm does care about Oliver and Thea in his own twisted way, he just cares about himself infinitely more

[wonderwall]

I think that Malcolm does care about Oliver and Thea in his own twisted way, he just cares about himself infinitely more

Yeah! He would sooner kill Oliver and Thea if he could gain from it, but he'd definitely feel bad about it! :p 

 

I actually have trouble reading Malcolm, I don't know when he's being genuine or when he isn't. I think that's fantastic tbqh

[kismet]

I agree. Felicity made a decision a leader would normally do, and under normal conditions we wouldn't even be talking about it. If Oliver wasn't dead and we saw Dig and Roy getting their asses kicked which leads to Felicity making a unilateral decision, I don't think we'd really be discussing it. But because Oliver IS dead, it was an emotional, selfish decision.

I think what people are also failing to see is that R&D's response was also emotional & selfish. They too are grieving in their own way and probably felt it was their fault that they failed Oliver as well, and somehow shifting blame is easier sometimes then accepting that bad things just happen sometimes and things don't go your way. I think this argument will have no influence moving fwd on their relationships once they have time to process the events and the loss of O. None of their heads were really in the game. Grief and Guilt are horrible monsters to deal with, and definitely harder to deal with than Brick.

 

Haters are gonna hate. I'm sure Felicity will be forgiven for this by the time next wk rolls around or people rewatch it and see that it wasnt just emotion that was driving her decision, it did sorta look like they werent gonna win that battle, so good leaders sometimes cut their losses. You dont always gets to win. Emotions or not.

 

Side bar -  I do think the fact that she was a woman making that call did influence some peoples opinions. There is a sad stigma that women can be too heavily influenced by their emotions which is not true, or they are a cold-hearted soulless being like Amanda Waller which is also not true. The truth & reality lies somewhere in between for both genders. And I hope Arrow writers work to diminish that bias/stigma. Only time will tell...

[BkWurm1]

Barrowman has said in his head, Merlyn loves Oliver, he's known him since he was a little boy and that he genuinely thought Oliver could win.  So I kept that in mind while watching and yeah, that does come across.  It's still was a crazy ass plan but I think we have to accept that Malcolm is more than a bit crazy. 

Edited January 23, 2015 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

Clearly if someone has the power and knowledge to bring somebody back from the dead, they probably have the power to fix a few broken bones... Which is why I think Oliver will

be sidelined for few episodes and really only shown in a flashbacks

because he's healing. Sorta kinda wanna see him using one of those staff canes made of a branch like Yoda. It seems just mythical & mystical all at the same time as he hobbles through the snow.

[Perfect Xero]

Barrowman has said in his head, Merlyn loves Oliver, he's known him since he was a little boy and that he genuinely thought Oliver could win.  So I kept that in mind while watching and yeah, that does come across.  It's still was a crazy ass plan but I think we have to accept that Malcolm is more than a bit crazy. 

 

I think it fits with the scene from Season 1 where Malcolm has knocked the Hood out and unmasks him. Malcolm's reaction when he sees that it's Oliver is, "Oh no."

[Starfish35]

So..........

I guess I should just come out and admit that I'm back watching Arrow again, despite all my protestations and better judgement. I've watched the last six episodes of this season (I also ended up watching "Guilty" over the hiatus - I rewatched TSOOFS and one thing led to another.....anyway.) We'll see how long this ends up lasting.

I think most people have already said a lot of what I thought. About "door-gate" - I'm not totally sure what I think about this. I'd already read a lot of reactions about it before I saw the episode, so I'm not sure how much that is coloring my thinking about it. Same with the light thing.

I think my main reaction is that I'm not sure how much effect it had one way or the other. It seemed like the fight was over pretty much. Diggle and Roy could have chased them out but it seems unlikely that they could have actually caught them on foot. On the other hand I'm not sure how much danger they were actually in at that point for Felicity to protect them from, seeing as how the other guys were racing away from them in a speeding truck. I'm not blaming Felicity - it just seems like the whole thing was set up oddly. If Felicity was that agitated about them going after the guys, I would have expected her to have been expressing that over the comms, and to tell them she was closing the door. But it seemed like the writers wanted this little "gotcha" moment, so she keeps total silence until they're back at the ArrowCave. I don't know. The whole thing just played strangely to me.

The lights - that's not such a big deal to me. The one thing I did think was that I thought it would have been more effective just to leave Diggle and Roy standing there alone. I thought that shot, before the lights went out, made the point just as well or better. I understand the symbolism with her comment earlier about keeping the lights on, but visually, it just didn't play so well for me. *shrugs* Judging from the comments I'm in a minority on this though. :)

Laurel. Um. A lot of mixed thoughts. Her courtroom scene was really annoying. I have to agree with the Vulture reviewer - while, ok, yes, it's good that she gets a win, she comes across as really really abrasive here.

I didn't actually mind her so much with the team. I liked the look she gave Felicity - reassuring her that Oliver was coming back. That was really good. Her talk with Diggle also wasn't bad. The hug was....odd, seeing how little interaction they've had. Her lack of reaction to Oliver's death was weird, though, considering in just the last episode she was tearfully proclaiming how she can't lose anyone else. I think we're supposed to think that Laurel doesn't actually believe that Oliver's dead, which I suppose does make sense considering their history, but that was not entirely clear. And I'm annoyed that it puts Laurel in the position of being the one to bravely "keep the faith" and soldier on when everyone else walks away.

The Black Canary thing.....nothing about this has made sense, so I suppose I shouldn't expect this to. I guess the two biggest things....why was Sara's stuff laying out? And why didn't they cut that deeply cheesy line? :)

Sidenote before moving on to Malcolm and Thea....there was a fan who did reviews back in the Smallville days, and she used to talk about how a lot of the characters' actions only made sense if they had information that only the audience should know. For example, that Lex would ultimately be evil. I think a lot of what's happened with Laurel this season has that same problem. Because it is all geared ultimately to make her Black Canary, they're not stopping to make sure that the character's actions make sense within that world. It only matters that it moves her closer to where they want her to be, in the suit. Anyway. Moving on.

Malcolm. Ok, I'm going to say something that's probably going to make me extremely unpopular (lol), but I am not JB's biggest fan. I think he does great in some things. I enjoyed him in Doctor Who and I liked him as the evil mastermind of season one. But I did not really like him in Torchwood, and one of the biggest reasons is that I am not particularly fond of him in emotional scenes. And this was a prime example. Obviously this is a MMV situation, so....moving on.

I'm not really sure what they're trying to do with Malcolm. I'm no stranger to shows that "redeem" their villians. I'm currently watching OUAT and have watched Buffy, TVD, and The Originals, among others. But that being said....I just don't know if I can get behind an attempt to redeem Malcolm. I hope that's not what they're going for here, but this episode did make me a little concerned. I was very irritated that there was no mention by anyone that he killed Sara to make his plan work in the first place, even if Oliver had lived.

Thea....ah Thea. I love your sword fighting, but why are you trusting this man? It makes no sense to me. But I really wanted Roy to just sit down with her and just tell her the truth. Like he said to Diggle, what's the point of keeping it secret now? (Plot reasons)

Other thoughts: so what, is Brick a metahuman? Do bullets ricochet off him or something?

And I laughed at Diggle's response to Roy about wearing the suit.

Also, I'm starting to wonder what Paul Blackthorne did to get on the writers' bad side? Just kidding, but it seems like he's barely been in this season. I know I missed the first four episodes, but still. Wow.

Oh I forgot! Tatsu is alive! But see, here's another weird thing. They want the viewer to be surprised by who it is, so they have Maseo address the person at the door as if they barely knew each other. Unless she and Maseo are estranged, that was a very odd way to greet his wife.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Starfish35

[Shanna]

Ok, I was nervous about bc taking over as soon as Oliver disappeared so I waited a day to watch, but I really enjoyed it! I have quibbles but everyone has already addressed them so I'll just saying the thing I loved.

Felicity. She was steller, in denial and then grieving. Punching a clown in the background which made me crack up and yes, turning the lights off. I though that was a perfect cap to he argument. She was still just making her point.

And you know, as much as felicity was in denial, so was Diggle. I think his laser focus on the mission and his anger feleciity after were really just his avoidance of grief. That they were doing missions at all was probably an attempt to distract themselves from worry over Oliver.

Also Maseo is the best. I love him and he is making me enjoy the hell out of all the China scenes. Thank god he will give me something to enjoy on the show while Oliver is away. I'm just happy we will at least still be seeing Stephen Amell because he is the center of the show and bc and atom and all that just don't work in that capacity.

I will also say that I thought ray was over the top in telling felicity she better not talk about his ex, even if they couched it in a nice way. STFU Ray.

[WaitandHope]

I can't believe I'm saying this...but I enjoyed the flashback scenes. Lord knows there wasn't a lot of humor in this episode and it's not one I'll be watching again, but flashback Oliver Queen bumping into glass and it not breaking was pretty hilarious. If the EPs wanted to finally win us flashback haters over, this was a genius diabolical plan. Little SA in the present forces us to watch him in the past. Clearly, absence made my heart grow fonder.

And, of course, the remaining TA all did a stand up job. as for Laurel, my 10-year-old daughter loved the costume and the line,so there's that. She didn't really start watching until this year so that could be affecting her judgement.

[looptab]

 I'm annoyed that it puts Laurel in the position of being the one to bravely "keep the faith" and soldier on when everyone else walks away.

[...]

. I was very irritated that there was no mention by anyone that he killed Sara to make his plan work in the first place, even if Oliver had lived.

 

 

Yes, these were things that bothered me, too. As far as Laurel,  as you said, none of that makes sense if we didn't know she is "destined" to be Black Canary.

I've even read reviews where they stated Laurel was acting as the more reasonable (as far as Starling City goes) deciding to suit up, or that she showed she can become the leader the Team needs. Uh, What?!

With Malcolm, I don't know what they're doing. I hope there is more to this, because otherwise what's left it's just an half-assed plan, from the man who spent YEARS planning the Undertaking. Just sayin'. And it would definitely show the RL half-assedness of  the EPs plan to make Laurel BC. I mean, you sacrificed a character in the process, you could have at least put some more thought in doing it. 

The fact that all the characters keep saying that he manipulated and brainwashed Thea into a killer but forget to mention that, you know, Sara died in the process, it's infuriating.

 

On another note, I'm glad the episode got good ratings and good reviews, since it was mainly a Team Arrow and Felicity episode, but I wonder why it wasn't really advertised as such-at least not until MG started beckpedaling from the LL trilogy notion, and even then it was a weird "I don't really know how to sell this" thing.

Edited January 23, 2015 by looptab

[apinknightmare]

They definitely should've marketed this as a Team Arrow ep, especially since the dreaded "trilogy" doesn't start until 3x11.

[Password]

I'm beginning to think more and more that the marketing team think Felicity sells herself so she doesn't need as much attention as Laurel, whom many dislike or are indifferent to.

Perhaps the same can be said of Team Arrow, but advertising that would've brought more people in because they're loved, so the lack of marketing is odd.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Limbo

[Menrva]

I had a few more thoughts regarding this episode:

 

Ray didn't completely annoy me this episode and I actually believed the few beats about his grief for his fiancé and his desire to do something. However, when Ray is shown working on his ATOM suit gauntlet, it was such a painfully obvious blatant rip-off of Iron Man that I cringed a bit. I'm sorry, but Brandon Routh is no poor man's Robert Downey Jr. and I have seen nothing so far from Ray Palmer that is deserving of a spin off. Just no.

 

Even though I can't explain why, I feel like Oliver's death at the hands of Ra's is part of a convoluted plot for Ra's to ultimately destroy Malcolm. Like, Malcolm believes Oliver to be dead, and then Oliver returns and kills Malcolm. And all will be settled with the League of Assassins and perhaps Ra's will even owe Oliver. And yes, I recognize that makes absolutely no sense.

 

I kind of want Felicity, Thea, Lyla, Sin and any other female character to also dress up as Black Canary and just have a big ol' smack down. Cause, if you have the right outfit and if your nail polish matches your lipstick, everyone will recognize that you're a badass. Again, no sense. But whatever.

 

Give me Oliver! This show is still called Arrow right? Not Arrow and Friends?