Gotham in the Media

[Camera One]

The Gordon-Alfred relationship will also be interesting.  They have potential to become Bruce's two surrogate fathers.  The key is the show will need to show some restraint and some balance.  I think it would be very easy for the showrunners to become obsessed with the shiny villains, describing their backstories, and at this early stage in this development, no doubt making them more morally grey.  Though I see that more of a problem in future seasons, since that's usually when writers run out of ideas or get bored with the goody-two-shoes protagonist.  I know Gordon isn't meant to be like that, but in time, he will be more "boring" to write for than the baddies.

[Kromm]

I'm nervous about ANY real Bruce/Gordon relationship, because it's something no other interpretation had even hinted at.  Gordon runs into Bruce Wayne constantly in all versions, but they typically are pretty formal with each other with no implication of ever having been otherwise.  I realize it's not a huge change to make, but if done incorrectly I think it opens up too many doors with making Gordon look even dumber for not knowing Batman and Bruce Wayne are the same person (which later comics insist that Gordon DID figure out eventually, admittedly, but that's certainly not how the early years of Batman bouncing around Gotham are ever played).

[Camera One]

but if done incorrectly I think it opens up too many doors with making Gordon look even dumber for not knowing Batman and Bruce Wayne are the same person

 

After Bruce Wayne went away, he could have come back so changed (playboy bachelor style) that Gordon could feel he didn't know him anymore and couldn't reconcile with Bruce as a kid, even if he had been close to him.

[Kromm]

After Bruce Wayne went away, he could have come back so changed (playboy bachelor style) that Gordon could feel he didn't know him anymore and couldn't reconcile with Bruce as a kid, even if he had been close to him.

Sure, that could be the case. But in my opinion it weakens a story when you have to "wank" an answer like this.

 

In a way I'd rather an explanation that the previous versions where Gordon seems to hardly know Adult Bruce are being supplanted by a new version where he does rather than some "well, it could work if X, Y, Z" approach.

[Camera One]

I don't think that's much a of a wank.  I've known people as a kid and after years not seeing them, they're people I hardly recognize anymore.

 

Or as you suggest, maybe in this new "universe", when this particular Bruce Wayne grows up, Gordon will have a closer relationship with him.  Though we'd probably never see it, unfortunately.

[MarkHB]

The extent to which Bruce Wayne and Jim Gordon know each other has varied over the years.  A case in point:

 

That's the beginning of the very first tale of The Bat-Man, from Detective #27.  (Note the smoking: don't try this at home, kids!)  So at that point, Wayne and Gordon were friends (and Bruce played his "disaffected/disinterested" schtick to the hilt to glean information).  Also, I could definitely see Ben McKenzie growing up to look like this version of Gordon. 

[Camera One]

That's pretty neat.  They sure are smoking up a storm, LOL.

[Rick Kitchen]

Damn, I love Bruce's yellow suit there.  :)

[Tableau]

I think it would be very easy for the showrunners to become obsessed with the shiny villains, describing their backstories, and at this early stage in this development, no doubt making them more morally grey. Though I see that more of a problem in future seasons, since that's usually when writers run out of ideas or get bored with the goody-two-shoes protagonist. I know Gordon isn't meant to be like that, but in time, he will be more "boring" to write for than the baddies.

This is so true and IMO the biggest pitfall the show will have to avoid if there is more than one season.

The most recent example of this I can think of is Once Upon A Time. Emma was the main character the show centered on but the writers got bored with her after season one and focused so completely on the more "interesting" villains, the show stopped being about Emma completely.

Being good does not mean you have to be boring and stupid. Look at Marvel's Captain America. It can be done people!

[Trini]

Casting news:

David Zayas cast as Sal Maroni.

[Tenshinhan]

Casting news:

David Zayas cast as Sal Maroni.

 

Interesting that they're bringing in Harvey Dent's longtime nemesis, Boss Maroni.  Especially when the series is set in pre-Batman times.  But it's a nice touch compared to some of the rest.

[scarynikki12]

I think that's a smart move.  Maroni makes for a good series long antagonist for the Gotham PD, sort of like Luther Mahoney from the old Homicide show (not that I expect this show to be anywhere near that level of quality but the Batverse mob bosses can still be utilized in this manner). 

[MarkHB]

I'm mildly surprised - and enthused - that they're bringing in another mob boss as part of the powerplay between Falcone and Fish Mooney.  Gives more weight - and directions to go in - to Penguin's "bloodbath" line.

[Tenshinhan]

I'm mildly surprised - and enthused - that they're bringing in another mob boss as part of the powerplay between Falcone and Fish Mooney.  Gives more weight - and directions to go in - to Penguin's "bloodbath" line.

 

Is Carmine Falcone supposed to be on this show? I haven't been following much so I may have missed it.

[Kromm]

I'm mildly surprised - and enthused - that they're bringing in another mob boss as part of the powerplay between Falcone and Fish Mooney.  Gives more weight - and directions to go in - to Penguin's "bloodbath" line.

I dunno. Three mob bosses almost seems kind of crowded.  It's kind of why I was surprised "Fish" was even created.  I'm supposing they wanted some bad-ass female character, and just saw an opening, since Falcone is kind of a walking-talking mob cliche (he's deliberately a total Vito Corleone copy).  That said, it won't really be credible as Batman backstory if they totally do away with Falcone. Frank Miller kind of pounded him into everyone's heads (and he's directly responsible for Two-Face if nothing else).  And remember, Falcone is supposed to be in pretty much sole control of Gotham's underworld by the time Batman enters the picture.  "Fish" and whatever bosses there are have to LOSE (although they don't necessarily have to die--they could be subverted or taken-over, or be in prison, or on the run).

[Tenshinhan]

That said, it won't really be credible as Batman backstory if they totally do away with Falcone. Frank Miller kind of pounded him into everyone's heads (and he's directly responsible for Two-Face if nothing else).  And remember, Falcone is supposed to be in pretty much sole control of Gotham's underworld by the time Batman enters the picture.

 

I disagree with this.  Carmine Falcone, in my opinion, is a relatively small character within the Batman mythos.  If it hadn't been for Jeph Loeb's popular follow-ups to Year One, I doubt he would be remembered in the way that he is now.  

 

Honestly, I think that The Long Halloween, with a few exceptions, is pretty inconsequential to the Batman mythos overall.  And I certainly wouldn't allow the credit for Two-Face's creation to be given to Falcone, despite the plot of that story. 

[Tableau]

When I think of Falcone, I think of Tom Wilkinson in Batman Begins: Generic mob guy who can fill any role in Batman mythos that needs a mob boss to fill it. Nothing about Falcone strikes me as special.

[Kromm]

I never said he was special.  I said they can't totally do away with him.  

 

As I said before, he was created in the image of Vito Corleone specifically to BE generic. 

 

The essential bit about Falcone isn't Falcone himself (even in reference to Two Face, because you can change how Marconi got the acid without changing anything else).  It's that there wasn't a mob war when Batman took over, but rather a single mob boss with a stranglehold on the city.  The dynamics of Batman's early fight is thus defined more as him fighting an army than him fighting pure chaos.  I suppose in theory they could change things up and have that single ruling mob boss be either Fish Mooney or Sal Marconi, but I can't see any compelling reason for them to change it--unless they're just starved at some point for a twist the viewers won't expect.

 

I suppose we'll have a few things like that to deal with.  We know Gordon has to somehow get a kid named Barbara, but we don't REALLY know if she's a real daughter or adopted niece.  We know Gordon has to be a beleaguered but essentially still honest mid-level cop when Batman shows up, but in the comics he basically gave up on Gotham and came BACK after 15 years away.  That could still happen (with this show ending with him leaving Gotham). We have other pieces on the character board like Sarah Essen, Renee Montoya and Crispus Allen, who are all kind of out of time in this show compared to the comics, so we have no clue as to their fates (some could parallel the comics--Allen's fate is one that comes to mind--but who knows?

[MarkHB]

I think if we try to cast everything in terms of the hardcore Batman canon, we're doomed to disappointment.  I think Heller and Cannon have made it clear that they're telling their own story in the context of the Batman milieu, with their own take on the history and the characters, and in my case I'm perfectly happy to sit back and enjoy the ride.

 

With Maroni in, my speculation is that S1 will revolve around a 3-way mob war between Falcone's family, Maroni's family, and Fish Mooney deciding to try to grab her own piece of the pie with Cobblepot as her capo (which strikes me as a terrific story to follow).  Of course, sometimes the underlings can become the bosses.....

[darkestboy]

I'm not generally fussed by either Falcone or Maroni as they are pretty generic gangsters. Even Rupert Thorne in TAS had a bit more to him than either of those two but I do like Zayas as an actor and he might be better utilised in Gotham than he ever was in Dexter to be honest, plus the three way war with Maroni, Falcone and Fish could be very interesting to watch.

Edited August 8, 2014 by darkestboy

[MarkHB]

Wanna see Arkham? (No plot spoilers, but obviously some reveal of show imagery.)

[darkestboy]

Arkham looks stunning there. I really like it and it's oddly making me look forward to seeing Hugo Strange now.

[scrb]

Need to get some reviews to see if this show merits a bigger audience than comics enthusiasts.

[MarkHB]

Reviews of the pilot coming out of SDCC are mixed, to be honest.  But, that's all anyone outside the show has seen is the pilot.

[MarkHB]

OTOH, here's a new DC All Access from the TCA's that talks to Heller, Cannon, and some of the cast:

 

[darkestboy]

Good interview.

 

Might give the Gotham by Midnight comics a try.

[MarkHB]

New cast photos, including Falcone, Crispus Allen, and Renee Montoya.

[Trini]

I know it's going to be the main color scheme, but I hope they don't have everyone in shades of gray all the time. ;-)

The size of the cast (and (visual) tone) kinda reminds me of Prison Break. I assume that we won't see everyone in every episode; but I hope that it doesn't end up like PB season 2, in which there were several storylines going on that barely intersected.

[Kromm]

I know it's going to be the main color scheme, but I hope they don't have everyone in shades of gray all the time. ;-)

I think the way that seems to work best with the Bat-family and their environment are shades of gray, but with sharp pops of vibrant color in small strategic amounts. Like a bright blue handkerchief being a sharp contrast to a gray suit, that same philosophy can work with the environment too--a dark black and gray city, with sudden bits of neon light or the occasional really over the top billboard or awning.

[darkestboy]

New cast photos, including Falcone, Crispus Allen, and Renee Montoya.

 

Nice pics.

[FurryFury]

I don't have much hopes for the show. I'm not that big a fan of comics in general, but I still watch the MCU movies, Agents of SHIELD and I used to really love Arrow back in the first half of s2 (I had to stop watching after s2 finale, though, but I still care, kinda). From what I know about this show, it seems way too male-skewered, and it bothers me a lot. Considering I don't really care about Batman and Bat-family, I suspect I'll find it a usual dick-fest in the vein of Almost Human. Also, Gordon's fiancée seems to be a tailor-made damsel in distress, and characters of this type NEVER work out well.

 

However, I've heard Bruno Heller is the showrunner of this thing, and at least his scripts on The Mentalist weren't that bad, and I still watch the show after 7 seasons (although I binge-watched), so he must be not that bad. Still, the prominence of male characters really gives me a pause.

[Kromm]

However, I've heard Bruno Heller is the showrunner of this thing, and at least his scripts on The Mentalist weren't that bad, and I still watch the show after 7 seasons (although I binge-watched), so he must be not that bad. Still, the prominence of male characters really gives me a pause.

I count plenty of female characters:

 

Selina Kyle

Sarah Essen (and she's the authority figure too)

Renee Montoya

Barbra Kean

Ivy Pepper

Fish Mooney

 

That's 6, to the 7 count for announced major male characters (Jim Gordon, Bruce Wayne, Alfred Pennyworth, Oswald Cobblepot, Harvey Bullock, Edward Nygma, Crispus Allen).  Not a significant numbers dominance from the male side, in other words.

[FurryFury]

They all seem to be in the background, though. I mean, we have a love interest without any obvious role, a troublemaker child who won't probably be on screen much due to child labor laws, a villain who's set up to be betrayed by her right hand probably somewhere around s1 finale and a cop (no probs with the cop, she may be all right, I've just heard very little about her). Oh, and a boss that the main character is possibly going to cheat on his SO with (I heard that was a comic book storyline). Of course, it may all be subverted (and I hope it will), I'm just skeptical. 

[Kromm]

They all seem to be in the background, though. I mean, we have a love interest without any obvious role, a troublemaker child who won't probably be on screen much due to child labor laws, a villain who's set up to be betrayed by her right hand probably somewhere around s1 finale and a cop (no probs with the cop, she may be all right, I've just heard very little about her). Oh, and a boss that the main character is possibly going to cheat on his SO with (I heard that was a comic book storyline). Of course, it may all be subverted (and I hope it will), I'm just skeptical. 

I guess those are fair objections, but I'm curious what you'd expect from a group of characters that already existed. Heller and his crew didn't create anyone except Jada Smith's character, and in fact jumped through hoops to even bring most of those female characters along at all, since they don't logically fit in either Gordon or Bruce Wayne's past without shoehorning. In the comics, Renee Montoya is a contemporary of Batman (actually way younger--she's a Rookie Cop when Batman is already in his middle years). Sarah Essen was originally Gordon's partner, but a bit later in his career. Ivy and Selina have no real logical connection to either a young Bruce Wayne or Gordon at this early stage (they're both seemingly younger than Batman in the comics, not the same age or older as they seem to be here). Barbara Keen is actually the only one for sure who fits in this timeframe.

 

The only other intelligent suggestion I've heard for plucking female characters out of either Bruce Wayne or Jim Gordon's distant pasts is Dr. Leslie Thompkins, who in the comics is written as around in Batman's current day, but also as a colleague of his father, Dr. Thomas Wayne. She's quite literally written in the Batman mythos as co-parenting Bruce along with Alfred.  Her lack of inclusion is the one big misstep, since she could have been very prominent in the plotline of a young Bruce, and also would have had a lot of logical interaction with a young Detective if they placed her character working in an ER or as she does later in DC comics, as running a free medical clinic in one of the bad parts of Gotham.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Kromm

[Trini]

Yeah, they squeeze in "Ivy Pepper"(ugh), but omit Leslie Thompkins, who would logically be a major character in young Bruce's story?? I'm hoping they find a way to bring her in sooner rather than later.

[MarkHB]

Two new videos.  In the first, the cast (at least the members who weren't shooting) take on the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnV2_3-VRmQ

 

In the second, Ben introduces us to the UK Channel 5 trailer:

[Trini]

I can't embed the videos from my crappy laptop, but there's a behind-the-scenes special online. (I haven't watched it yet)

I don't have a problem with the marketing, but I'm getting a little nervous -- what was the last show that got promoted heavily then got cancelled in one season or less?

[MarkHB]

I can't embed the videos from my crappy laptop, but there's a behind-the-scenes special online. (I haven't watched it yet)

I don't have a problem with the marketing, but I'm getting a little nervous -- what was the last show that got promoted heavily then got cancelled in one season or less?

I just watched them, and... wow.  Truly impressive, IMHO, and there are some things going on I didn't really expect.

[Kromm]

I can't embed the videos from my crappy laptop, but there's a behind-the-scenes special online. (I haven't watched it yet)

Your equipment shouldn't be an issue.  The embedding isn't accomplished by any processing from your machine--it's literally just a URL pasted as clear text into a message.

 

That said, there are a lot of videos there, so going to a single page encompassing them was probably the right thing to do anyway (you'd have had to go hit the Watch on YouTube button for EACH of them, get the URL for each from that, and paste them all one at a time in a post here to get around that, and even describing all that is tiresome, so doing it would be worse).

[MarkHB]

Note that the 21-minute version is available on FOX OnDemand (if you have digital cable), as well as the FOX website and Hulu.  However, at the end it also mentions two "Watch later" videos, "Selina Kyle" and "Balloonman," neither of which I could find anywhere.

[darkestboy]

Digital Spy provided a link as well.

 

I watched it earlier this morning, impressive stuff.

 

Intrigued a bit more with Renee and Barbara as well, given that we've not exactly been given a lot on them as characters.

[Trini]

Your equipment shouldn't be an issue. The embedding isn't accomplished by any processing from your machine--it's literally just a URL pasted as clear text into a message.

Ah, thanks. I'll have to test that out.

[Lisin]

I think YouTube videos are the only ones that embed though. You just have to make sure you're not using the mobile URL and make sure it isn't a live link (use the unlinky chain button in the menu bar). 

[Kromm]

I think YouTube videos are the only ones that embed though. You just have to make sure you're not using the mobile URL and make sure it isn't a live link (use the unlinky chain button in the menu bar). 

The videos in question (on the page Trini was pointing to) were indeed YouTube videos.

[The Crazed Spruce]

If that still doesn't work, try using the >_ button right next to your avatar to get the raw html, then delete the url tags surrounding the YouTube link.  :)

[MarkHB]

The one-piece, 21-minute version doesn't appear to be on Youtube (it's on Fox's site, I believe, and probably Hulu).  I've embedded Part 1 of the 4-piece version here; if you use the "View on YouTube" button within the video, you'll see Parts 2, 3 and 4 labeled in the "other things to watch" list on the right.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xjn_n4ixpMo

Edited August 24, 2014 by MarkHB

[Rick Kitchen]

Mayor Aubrey James is being played by Richard Kind.

[maraleia]

Article about the awesome diversity of this show. http://www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/geek/2014/09/10/holy-diversity-batman

This article sealed the deal for me. I will be watching.

[Kromm]

Article about the awesome diversity of this show. http://www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/geek/2014/09/10/holy-diversity-batman

This article sealed the deal for me. I will be watching.

They may be a little overly hopeful about Montoya though.  While I doubt they'll change her sexuality, we also don't know that they'll bother to show it at all.

[MarkHB]

This was announced Tuesday, so it may be sold out, but there's a special fan screening of the pilot in New York on Monday.  RSVP required, see the linked article for details.