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Gotham in the Media


Athena
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My hunch is that the network thought the names Nygma, Kyle and "Ivy Pepper" wouldn't necessarily connect with the passers-by  I bet if you went up to 10 people on the street who had seen The Dark Knight Rises, they'd identify Anne Hathaway's character as Catwoman and only 1 would even recognize the name Selina Kyle.

That's probably the reason, but it doesn't really bode well if they are interfering already. Comic book fans in some ways are even more picky than novel adherents, so changing the names is sort of an idiotic decision. I suppose they can argue that unlike a movie where we see both the villain and the everyday alter ego, we don't actually get to see the villain so the name has to be more obvious? I still can't really buy that argument. Ivy Pepper isn't even clever. For example, some of the alter ego names on "Once Upon a Time" are at least somewhat a play on the words (like Ashley for Cinderella).

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(edited)

It gives a few details, but I feel this is mostly spoiler free:

TVLine Gotham pilot preview.

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Ivy Pepper isn't even clever.

Even if they wanted to name her Ivy, they could have done something better than "Pepper". There are lots of plant names that start with 'P'. Edited by Trini
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The song from the Villains trailer was also used in the Doctor Doom version of the trailer for the Alba version of Fantastic Four years ago. Come on, guys. I like A Perfect Circle too, but let's try and mix it up a little.

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(edited)

We have another cast member.  I'm guessing he's going to be a street-buddy to Selina.

Can Kyle Massey act his way out of a paper bag though (I'm not talking about comedic acting, which I'm sure as a Disney kid he can do)?

 

Isn't it weird this guy has been playing a kid for like 10 years now?  He's got to be well into his 20s by now.

Edited by Kromm
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Here's a Canadian trailer from CTV.  More spoilery than the others we've seen, so watch at your own risk:

 

 

Not enough sunlight for my tastes.  And way too much CGI.

CGI probably can't be helped since they're building a city with a distinctive look that doesn't exist in the RW, and I'm perfectly fine with the idea that Gotham City exists in a perpetual twilight.  I particularly love the shot of Selina on the rooftop at 0:15 of that promo (not this latest one).  YMMV. 

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Here's a Canadian trailer from CTV.  More spoilery than the others we've seen, so watch at your own risk:

 

 

CGI probably can't be helped since they're building a city with a distinctive look that doesn't exist in the RW, and I'm perfectly fine with the idea that Gotham City exists in a perpetual twilight.  I particularly love the shot of Selina on the rooftop at 0:15 of that promo (not this latest one).  YMMV. 

I only think one thing is that trailer is TRULY spoilery

Selina Kyle being there right after the Waynes are murdered (and who knows, maybe during).

 

The rest is interesting and new footage, of course, but doesn't really tell us anything that would surprise us, I think.

 

In terms of the sunlight issue?  Yeah. I'm not sure I get the objection.  This is Gotham City.  Not that there literally isn't sunlight, but in terms of representing the imagery of the city, we're going to see a disproportionate amount of darkness.  It's not meant to make us literally believe it's never to rarely day there, but it's supposed to set a tone.

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In terms of the sunlight issue?  Yeah. I'm not sure I get the objection.  This is Gotham City.  Not that there literally isn't sunlight, but in terms of representing the imagery of the city, we're going to see a disproportionate amount of darkness.  It's not meant to make us literally believe it's never to rarely day there, but it's supposed to set a tone.

 

It's just that I find the darkness to be a little over the top.  I mean even the shots of scenes in the daytime look like it's always cloudy out.  Was it really necessary to add CG clouds?  If it's during the day, they should just let it be and let the sun shine.  Maybe if they had used actual footage of the city and architecture, instead of CGI, it wouldn't have seemed so bad.  You can set a tone without making it look like a video game or a fantasy world.

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It's just that I find the darkness to be a little over the top.  I mean even the shots of scenes in the daytime look like it's always cloudy out.  Was it really necessary to add CG clouds?  If it's during the day, they should just let it be and let the sun shine.  Maybe if they had used actual footage of the city and architecture, instead of CGI, it wouldn't have seemed so bad.  You can set a tone without making it look like a video game or a fantasy world.

Actual footage of the city?  

 

You'll have to explain where they'd get that for a city that only exists on a movie studio back lot and in GCI.

Sure, those clouds are CG.  But so are the buildings, the streets, etc, except when they do a street level shot and then it's the back lot.

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Actually, I believe they're filming in NYC.  I'm not sure how much "back lot" there still is there, so it's likely that they're finding the parts of the city that Rudy Giuliani and Bloomberg never cleaned up (which fits the "NY where Koch and Rudy and Bloomberg never happened" motif).  Plus, you want Gotham to be a place distinct from New York, not just it under another name.... otherwise the series makes much less sense.

 

Take a look here; that's the sort of city I'm hoping they have in mind.  Some of the preview clips plainly show the Manhattan skyline in the background; that's fine with me.... Gotham and New York can and should co-exist as separate cities; New York is the clean one.

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Actual footage of the city?  

 

By that I meant NYC, instead of computer generated shots.

 

Plus, you want Gotham to be a place distinct from New York, not just it under another name.... otherwise the series makes much less sense.

 

I guess this is where we disagree.  For me Gotham City is essentially New York (or any other major metropolitan city) under a different name.  It doesn't have to be some bizarre, otherworldly hellhole that's corrupt from top to bottom.  MMV.

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By that I meant NYC, instead of computer generated shots.

I guess this is where we disagree. For me Gotham City is essentially New York (or any other major metropolitan city) under a different name. It doesn't have to be some bizarre, otherworldly hellhole that's corrupt from top to bottom. MMV.

I find it more interesting that way.
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What was the Selina one like?

 

As for the previous discussion about the way Gotham city is being shot - I like it. It makes it stand out in a way that the Nolan movies (except the first one) really didn't but doesn't look cartoonish/garish like the Schumacher movies though.

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The Selina one was short... 15 seconds, the same sort of text we've seen on all the Fox promos that pretty much just showed her in close-up holding and petting that white cat in an alley.  Text said "Before there was CATWOMAN" / "There was a thief named SELINA KYLE".

 

Incidentally, I love the cat-like way she turns her head to watch Gordon at 0:11 of the "The Good..." promo above.

 

I think that almost all of us, regardless of what we think Gotham should be in this series, agree that Schumacher's version (which was more of an homage to Dick Sprang and the DC "Go-Go Chex" era of the early Silver Age) isn't it.  Personally, I'm in line with the vision that makes Gotham a place where, if someone told you there was a six-foot bat flitting amongst the tops of the skyscrapers and taking out criminals, a small part of you just might not think that person was entirely crazy.

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(edited)

I wonder if they'll do those 15 seconds ones for Oswald, Edward and Ivy then.

 

I just don't think the city should look too generic. Trailer wise, so far, they seem to have gotten it right.

Edited by darkestboy
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Also, here is another interview with Heller, in which we learn we're also getting Hugo Strange... and he helped found Arkham!

That's true to the DCAU, isn't it?

 

The more DCAU type stuff we get.... the better.

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I've got a nice, shiny blue plastic portrait of Sir Wilfred Laurier that says that they keep the gothic look for the architecture, fashion, and vehicles, but use modern cell phones, computers, and social media.

@The Crazed Spruce, it looks like you get to keep that portrait!  Here's another TCA article, this time from EW.

So in this Gotham, it’s a kind of timeless world. It’s yesterday, it’s today, and it’s tomorrow all at the same time, because that’s the world that dreams live in.”
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That's true to the DCAU, isn't it?

The more DCAU type stuff we get.... the better.

No. Hugo Strange in the DCAU was a minor villain who made one, maybe two appearances in the DCAU. He was never involved with Arkham.

Now in the Arkham video games, he was a major character and antagonist in Arkham City.

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No. Hugo Strange in the DCAU was a minor villain who made one, maybe two appearances in the DCAU. He was never involved with Arkham.

Now in the Arkham video games, he was a major character and antagonist in Arkham City.

Apparently I was confusing/misremebering the version of Strange in The Batman (which wasn't part of the DCAU).
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Tie-in website: Gotham Chronicle.

Interesting. So this is confirming they're putting the Batman mythos into fluid time.  Old timey in some stuff, but with websites for newspapers.

Gotham's weather in that (prec. and temp) seems to match NYC pretty exactly for the time I looked at it.  I may go back and check other times to see if that is maintained.

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The production values for this look decent, but I really think the entire premise is flawed. It's pretty universal that when Batman ascends to don the mask, Gotham is a cesspool and Gordon is a lone wolf in a sea of corruption. So why would I want to watch the backstory on a bunch of grimy criminals (i.e., supporting characters) in a hopelessly dirty, corrupt city? I'm just genuinely puzzled by the entire concept.

 

I also think the (incessantly played) trailer is terrible. The kid's overacted scream is like nails on a chalkboard to me at this point -- it's like the sound guys melded three screams into one and them amped up the volume. It's so completely fake it takes me immediately out of the trailer. Then we get the shots of all the villains in training, and again, I don't understand why I should care. We already know how their stories end, so it just seems to point to more powerlessness and running in place as far as actual show plot (Gotham can never get too clean because we still have Batman in the future). It's such an odd choice for a show.

 

The only things I like in the trailer are the two leads -- Donal Logue is always great, and Ben McKenzie has a nice intensity -- he reminds me of Russell Crowe when he was young. But everything else just feels like fan-pandering. The villains don't interest me at all.

 

I got the mindset behind "Smallville" because it was a smart way to look at the teen years of Superman in ways that had never been addressed before (no matter how terribly the show ended up doing that). 

 

The truly odd thing is -- I think a young Bruce Wayne's adventures during his pre-Batman (training) years, when he'd disappeared from Gotham, would make a great show. But this makes no sense to me. Why pick a cesspool for long-term world-building?

 

Thanks for the chance to vent. The trailer is driving me to distraction. I'm incredibly sick of it.

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Fox is launching a pair of Gotham contests: remake the new trailer (or part of it), or create a poster. 

 

Here's the new trailer (some new footage):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S_bodvIBG4

 

So far as "why would you watch" goes, my plan is to disassociate from the Batman particulars and enjoy it as a noir cop show in a uniquely stylized city.  YMMV.  (If you look at the Google news feed for the show, it amazes me how many outlets are shocked - shocked! - that Batman isn't going to be on it.  It's not like they made that plain from the start or anything.)

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From SDCC 2014:

 

Ben McKenzie says 'Gotham' is the opposite of the original Batman

 

Cast of Gotham Talks Batman's Origins - Comic Con 2014

 

"Gotham" Interview at Comic-Con 2014 - TVLine

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I really want to watch this series because I do want to see if it can grip me without actually having Batman there prominently and seeing the early days of the Rogue Gallery members.

 

From every interview with cast and crew that I've seen/read, every trailer I've watched and every promo picture that has been released, it really does look like a lot of thought has been put behind this series.

 

I'm genuinely excited to see it unfold. I also hope that it runs for a fair amount of seasons (four or five possibly) and doesn't outstay it's welcome like Smallville kind of did in the end.

 

Oh and the Comic-Con interviews are great. Props to Camren for mentioning Julie Newmar as well.

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The production values for this look decent, but I really think the entire premise is flawed. It's pretty universal that when Batman ascends to don the mask, Gotham is a cesspool and Gordon is a lone wolf in a sea of corruption. So why would I want to watch the backstory on a bunch of grimy criminals (i.e., supporting characters) in a hopelessly dirty, corrupt city? I'm just genuinely puzzled by the entire concept.

 

I certainly wouldn't say that it is "universal" that Gotham is a cesspool, or that Gordon is a lone wolf.  Nor would I describe the city as hopelessly dirty and corrupt.  YMMV.  That is, however, a popular interpretation of Gotham City and the Batman mythos.  

 

As for why the premise would work, well, you would have a new crime drama on television, but one that revolves around a setting and characters from the Batman universe.  That alone opens up a world of possibilities for a series in my opinion.  It's not like we know how any of the cases that Gordon works on will end up.  Not anymore so than on any of the other cop dramas on television.  I don't think anyone expects the cops on those other shows to clean up the city for good either.  On top of that, you have a young Bruce Wayne dealing with the loss of his parents and moving towards the future.  There's even more opportunity on that side of things, since you would be in actuality watching a "young Batman".

 

I do however agree with you about the "pre-Villains".  That stuff is just embarrasing to me, and I wish they hadn't gone there.  And I do really like Donal Logue and Ben McKenzie.

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The production values for this look decent, but I really think the entire premise is flawed. It's pretty universal that when Batman ascends to don the mask, Gotham is a cesspool and Gordon is a lone wolf in a sea of corruption. So why would I want to watch the backstory on a bunch of grimy criminals (i.e., supporting characters) in a hopelessly dirty, corrupt city? I'm just genuinely puzzled by the entire concept.

I think there IS a way to do this successfully.  I'm just praying they see it/believe it.  Gordon as a lone wolf in a sea of corruption never really worked as an interpretation, because Gordon is already in power as Commissioner, I believe, in most versions of the story when Batman shows up.  Nobody uncorruptible gets to that place without a support structure.  Ergo, either he's gone one, and the story is there to be told, or he's been corrupted, and his role in the Batman stories is more of a redemption story on Gordon's side.  

 

It's got to be a balancing act. Gotham can't be SO corrupt that Gordon can't exist, but it also has to follow that a decent sized group of criminals escaped prosecution for decades.  Gotham can be dangerous, but people (at least the rich and middle class) would just plain move out if that's all it was.  Gotham isn't Newark, NJ or Detroit, MI or one of those places that are basically nothing but a warzone.  If it's actually a NYC parallel, then it's more like the NYC of the 1970s, where the rich continued to live high on the hog, the crime was large, but mainly of the petty type, and the corruption of the system was more a death of a thousand cuts in the middle levels than from all sides.

 

This leads back to the argument people often have about Batman.  That he may have helped stomp out the petty crime, but his very existence drew out the super-criminals.  So in Gotham we have gangsters and such, and in that far off time after Batman shows up they decide to elevate their game into costumes and citywide mad plots in response.

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Thanks for the discussion!  And please note -- I hope my post didn't come off as criticizing those who will be watching. That wasn't what I intended at all -- when I asked "why watch?" I was thinking only about my own point of view about what I feel is a potentially flawed premise. So apologies -- I really didn't mean it to come across as criticism of any who do find it exciting and potentially interesting.

 

So far as "why would you watch" goes, my plan is to disassociate from the Batman particulars and enjoy it as a noir cop show in a uniquely stylized city.  YMMV.  (If you look at the Google news feed for the show, it amazes me how many outlets are shocked - shocked! - that Batman isn't going to be on it.  It's not like they made that plain from the start or anything.)

 

I agree that the cop noir aspect is its strong suit, and it will be interesting to see how they pull that off. The production design and costumes will be a big part of whether that aspect works, for me.

 

It's got to be a balancing act. Gotham can't be SO corrupt that Gordon can't exist, but it also has to follow that a decent sized group of criminals escaped prosecution for decades.  Gotham can be dangerous, but people (at least the rich and middle class) would just plain move out if that's all it was.  Gotham isn't Newark, NJ or Detroit, MI or one of those places that are basically nothing but a warzone.  If it's actually a NYC parallel, then it's more like the NYC of the 1970s, where the rich continued to live high on the hog, the crime was large, but mainly of the petty type, and the corruption of the system was more a death of a thousand cuts in the middle levels than from all sides.

 

This leads back to the argument people often have about Batman.  That he may have helped stomp out the petty crime, but his very existence drew out the super-criminals.  So in Gotham we have gangsters and such, and in that far off time after Batman shows up they decide to elevate their game into costumes and citywide mad plots in response.

 

Thanks to all for the thoughtful replies -- and Kromm, you actually made me interested in the show with this post.

 

Annoying trailer or not, I'll probably check out the pilot just to see what I think about the premise (and promise) of the show. But the kid's over-the-top scream will continue to make me laugh (and then feel like a terrible person). 

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But the kid's over-the-top scream will continue to make me laugh (and then feel like a terrible person).

Heh.

But that scene is the defining moment of Batman, so I can see why they wanted to make it very dramatic. Yeah, they kept showing that little clip, but I want to wait to judge it until I see it in the context of the entire Pilot.

I also am not happy that they're going to be spending time on the "pre-villains", but I feel the show has potential in exploring Gordon and his relationship to the police department and the city, and young Bruce and his relationship with Alfred. From interviews, etc., the producers seem more excited to explore the villains, but the Alfred/Bruce mentor/mentee(?) relationship has almost never been explored in other media, so I hope they don't drop the ball on that.

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I got the impression that the "pre-villains" angle may have been a later addition to the concept, given that the original "GOTHAM" logo skyline didn't include any of the Easter eggs that the current one does ("Ivy Towers," "? Hotel," etc.)  The rain has been a constant, though (and is even featured in the new Gotham-specific Warner Bros./ DC Comics pre-show ID).

 

I hope that the Gordon-Bruce relationship doesn't completely overpower the Alfred-Bruce relationship.  They've got Sean Pertwee, don't waste him!

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