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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

37 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean getting the MoC again could be a possibility. He could be Chuck's key and fight Super Sam.

Is alternate universes like s 13 a real spoiler? That's so dumb to do in the last season. It was only important because of saving Mary and Dean's arc WHICH THEY SUMMARILY DROPPED! If Michael goes back to get Angel's that's one thing... but a bunch of alternative universes rather than Supernatural is just dumb.

So then that was a vision of an alternate universe and our Sam and Dean just continue to do dumb stuff? Why did alternate Sam have the Sam red face that Cas saw?

Gah.

Why are there 2 versions of Dean?

The bunker scene just had that red lighting but AU!Sam didn't have a red face. And Cas didn't see the vision in the Season Premiere, only Sam did. He did get just a flash back then and saw more in the dream in episode 4.

If anyone is gonna be a key for Chuck, it will be Sam because of the bullet wound. 

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

24 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Yeah, to me they are showing if the boys had made different choices...

I can see that with last week`s teaser more, though, because different choice = evidently Sam continues to slug demon blood for whatever reason. The scenario and context was rather different to anything we had yet seen.

But from the photos it looks like pretty much a re-do of the episode where Demon!Dean was chasing Sam through the bunker. What is the different choice here? This time Sam tries to fly from the upper level like a headless chicken?

gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

19 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I can see that with last week`s teaser more, though, because different choice = evidently Sam continues to slug demon blood for whatever reason. The scenario and context was rather different to anything we had yet seen.

But from the photos it looks like pretty much a re-do of the episode where Demon!Dean was chasing Sam through the bunker. What is the different choice here? This time Sam tries to fly from the upper level like a headless chicken?

The railing is broken, so it seems more like an accident or being pushed/thrown through it than something intentional. I will be truly shocked if they allow Sam to be killed by Dean, even in his imagination/dreams/visions. As many times as we've seen "Sam" kill Dean (or just think he killed him, a la Meg!Sam, or attempt to murder him, a la Asylum*), have we ever seen it happen the other way around?

*And I consider these both to be kills, because Meg thought she did, and ghost influenced Sam would have definitely killed him had the gun not been emptied. He didn't just miss, as Demon!Dean missed with the hammer.

Aeryn13

Aeryn13

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The railing is broken, so it seems more like an accident or being pushed/thrown through it than something intentional. I will be truly shocked if they allow Sam to be killed by Dean, even in his imagination/dreams/visions. As many times as we've seen "Sam" kill Dean (or just think he killed him, a la Meg!Sam, or attempt to murder him, a la Asylum*), have we ever seen it happen the other way around?

*And I consider these both to be kills, because Meg thought she did, and ghost influenced Sam would have definitely killed him had the gun not been emptied. He didn't just miss, as Demon!Dean missed with the hammer.

Only Demon!Dean attempted it as far as I can remember and an actual kill? Nope, that I can think of.

In the actual episode Cas stopped it but yes, I doubt he kills him in the AU vision. He'll probably wake up.

This would honestly work better if somehow both brothers had struggled with the gun in Season 14 so both would have gotten the God connection. Then you could play it as their respective nightmares of what-if storylines where they killed each other. Which would be revealed to be Chuck's ending. And then together they would either circumvent it or do it in an unexpected way on their own terms. Sam getting random AU visions is deeply random.

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Castiels Cat

Castiels Cat

7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Only Demon!Dean attempted it as far as I can remember and an actual kill? Nope, that I can think of.

In the actual episode Cas stopped it but yes, I doubt he kills him in the AU vision. He'll probably wake up.

This would honestly work better if somehow both brothers had struggled with the gun in Season 14 so both would have gotten the God connection. Then you could play it as their respective nightmares of what-if storylines where they killed each other. Which would be revealed to be Chuck's ending. And then together they would either circumvent it or do it in an unexpected way on their own terms. Sam getting random AU visions is deeply random.

I think Sam is getting visions because Azazel's blood powers have been reactivated. That's why he's with his demon army (The Boy King) and the scenario resembles The End (an alternate reality in which Dean brings a group of ragtag hunters to confront and kill (?) Superpowered Sam to stop the End of the world. The hunters are all killed and finally Sam crushes Dean's head underfoot and kills him. 

Lucifer is dead and with God's power supercharging Azazel's blood he doesn't need him to go dark.

It's meta madness with Chuck writing it and possibly making changes as we go.

Castiels Cat

Castiels Cat

10 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The bunker scene just had that red lighting but AU!Sam didn't have a red face. And Cas didn't see the vision in the Season Premiere, only Sam did. He did get just a flash back then and saw more in the dream in episode 4.

If anyone is gonna be a key for Chuck, it will be Sam because of the bullet wound. 

So when Cas is healing Sam, Sam gets the vision and Cas feels the power which really bothers him. The red face is the bunker light.

I still think the parallels to the End were striking and a powered up Sam with demonic henchmen screams the Boy King with his demon Army. The fact that this is "The End" according to Chuck. Chuck is shown writing the ending and his new draft is  dark. He is reworking his old draft.

I don't think we are dealing with literal alternate gate worlds. It's Chuck's drafts of this world and he's changing plot points from his original story to account for what happened since season 5. That said he is going back to Sam goes dark and there's the Apocalypse thing more or less. The world ends. The Winchesters die. If Sam is going dark then Dean et al. needs to do something. If Dean plays his part (Michael) .then the B team does it... Dean has usually been the one to go rogue and off script so...

Castiels Cat

Castiels Cat

This seems like spoilers and speculation...

https://screenrant.com/supernatural-sam-winchester-god-equalizer-bullet-wounds/amp/

At any rate this is more or less what I have been speculating based on Atomic Monsters and the previous shoulder wound stuff...

Again with emphasis, Sam's vision plus Sam with the demons was very Boy king which suggests that his demonic powers have/will be awakened.

Dean with ragtag hunters there for Sam is "The End".

It's a reworking of season 5... a new draft.

ILoveReading

ILoveReading

CLOSING TIME – Dean (Jensen Ackles) goes off on his own to take on a case. Meanwhile, Castiel (Misha Collins) has an idea of how he can help Sam (Jared Padalecki) track down God. Amyn Kaderali directed the episode written by Jeremy Adams (#1507). Original Airdate 12/5/2019.

http://www.ksitetv.com/supernatural/supernatural-last-call-description-released/199736/

Episode 7 description

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

The press release for episode 6 says Dean and Sam are visited by an old friend.

Prediction:  This is actually Rowena, the new Queen of Hell, coming to bitch them out because she suddenly has competition for the rule over hell in the form of Lilith. 

And for some reason, she can`t get her old magical books on her own so the brothers try and fetch them for her but other witches are already there.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Welp, I was totally wrong about this. Colour me truly shocked! I am a little weirded out by how much I enjoyed this scene. Catharsis, maybe? Heh.

Haha, me, too. Though did I understand Lilith right and she said "Chuck could have ended this world in so many ways but this is the ending he wants"? Like, I get the stupid meta-narrative but the writers are aware that the show is still supposed to be the show, right? Meaning if either brother kills the other, this particular fictional world doesn`t end? It doesn`t even stop turning for one millisecond?

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Castiels Cat

Castiels Cat

18 hours ago, Lemuria said:

 I am assuming that next weeks episode is the one that was mentioned in the TV Guide (I think it was. It might’ve been entertainment weekly), where Dean is getting thrown around and Sam suddenly uses powers to defeat a witch. 

Telekinesis again? Are his demonic powers back. Is it shoulder mojo or just bad writing.

How do we know?

Castiels Cat

Castiels Cat

I just watched the Shaving People Punting Things video. At this juncture 3 things caught my eye...

1. Dean is walking through a junk yard (?). If so it must be Bobby's. Is he going to dig up the Horsemen's rings to release Michael who we know shows up in 8.

2. Dean unwraps a groddy bludgeon. Is it the First Blade?

3. Baby pulls away from Becky's house. Chuck looks petulant.

Castiels Cat

Castiels Cat

On 11/8/2019 at 12:37 AM, PinkChicken said:

The way this is phrased doesn't make it sound like they're necessarily old in this ep, but it just made me think of the long-running geriatric Winchesters joke with them still fighting at 80 with walkers and all. They could easily fit that in with what they have going with all of Chucks endings 😂

It also sounds like one of the s 5  warped alternative lives, especially  per Zachariah (is it... What is and What Shall Never Be?). Also sounds obviously written by Chuck to fck with them. 

Castiels Cat

Castiels Cat

On 11/15/2019 at 11:06 AM, Aeryn13 said:

Haha, me, too. Though did I understand Lilith right and she said "Chuck could have ended this world in so many ways but this is the ending he wants"? Like, I get the stupid meta-narrative but the writers are aware that the show is still supposed to be the show, right? Meaning if either brother kills the other, this particular fictional world doesn`t end? It doesn`t even stop turning for one millisecond?

The only way it ends is when one brother, having turned evil, kills the other.

I guess this explains the repetition.

Wow. They wrote themselves out of that corner.

Aeryn13

Aeryn13

3 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

The only way it ends is when one brother, having turned evil, kills the other.

I guess this explains the repetition.

Wow. They wrote themselves out of that corner.

But that doesn't end the entire world. The writers need to separate their stupid meta from the internal logic of the show. This fictional world will not end if fictional Dean and/or Sam die in it. Even if the show ends. Therefore, Lilith's words were meta-gibberish. Chuck ending this particular world could be done if he burned it down or threw a meteor on it or something. Regardless of what happens with Dean or Sam.

A story needs that suspension of disbelief to have the world feel real. Currently, with their writing meta they are destroying that.

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SueB

SueB

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(edited)
12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

That can't be right. As per the last announcement a new show is gonna be moved into the 8pm timeslo before Legacies starting February 6th.

Good point. If they limit the post-Christmas return to just 3 episodes, then I hope they are of  a 'grouping' that tides us for the big break.

Edited by SueB
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SueB

SueB

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(edited)

Open-Source Upcoming Episode spoilers as of early Nov:

General: As of early November, Alex has not been hired for more episodes.  Means no Jack before EP12 most likely.  Same for Brianna.

TBA   S15E20
Final scene/end state determined

TBA   S15E19
Mostly blocked out

TBA   S15E18

TBA   S15E17

TBA   S15E16

TBA   S15E15

TBA   S15E14

TBA   S15E13
No description – episode has LIKELY been written
Episode likely last one filmed before crew takes Christmas break

TBA   S15E12
No description – episode has written

TBA   S15E11- filming now
No description – episode has been written
Ominous hint in QOTD: “When it is all finished, you will discover it was never random.”  NO AUTHOR (an unaccredited QOTD has not happened before as far as I can recollect).  It bears a striking resemblance to Michael’s speech to Dean in 5.13. The Song Remains the Same.

TBA   S15E10
No description
SPNDC main or gold panel: Sam and Dean become ‘normal’.  Sam has a cold, Dean has cavities. 

TBA   S15E09
No description
Director: Charles Beeson

Kim Rhodes back as Jody (twitter)

Jim Beaver back as (likely) AUBobby (twitter)

Shoshannah Stern back from the dead (I assume) as Eileen

TBA   S15E08 - Our Father, Who Aren't In Heaven
No description
Director: RSJ
Jake Able is back as Adam AND (likely Michael ..see “Date Mike” note)
LIKELY mid-season finale

5th Dec 2019   S15E07 - Last Call
CLOSING TIME – Dean (Jensen Ackles) goes off on his own to take on a case. Meanwhile, Castiel (Misha Collins) has an idea of how he can help Sam (Jared Padalecki) track down God. Amyn Kaderali directed the episode written by Jeremy Adams (#1507). Original Airdate 12/5/2019.

Guest Star: Christian Kane

Guest Star: potentially Adam Rose – picture taken on last day of filming.  Could be early for Ep 8 but I wonder if Sam is hanging with Cas AND Aaron.

21st Nov 2019   S15E06 - Golden Time
OUT OF DIFFICULTIES GROW MIRACLES – Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) are visited by an old friend. Castiel (Misha Collins) investigates the disappearance of a local teen. John Showalter directed the episode written by Meredith Glynn (#1506). Original Airdate 11/21/2019.

Guest Star: “old friend” – no freaking clue unless Chuck’s old publisher is now a witch and it isn’t just actor reuse.

14th Nov 2019   S15E05 - Proverbs 17:3  
7th Nov 2019   S15E04 - Atomic Monsters
24th Oct 2019   S15E03 - The Rupture
17th Oct 2019   S15E02 - Raising Hell
10th Oct 2019   S15E01 - Back and to the Future

Edited by SueB
links added
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Castiels Cat

Castiels Cat

24 minutes ago, SueB said:

Open-Source Upcoming Episode spoilers as of early Nov:

General: As of early November, Alex has not been hired for more episodes.  Means no Jack before EP12 most likely.  Same for Brianna.

TBA   S15E20
Final scene/end state determined

TBA   S15E19
Mostly blocked out

TBA   S15E18

TBA   S15E17

TBA   S15E16

TBA   S15E15

TBA   S15E14

TBA   S15E13
No description – episode has LIKELY been written
Episode likely last one filmed before crew takes Christmas break

TBA   S15E12
No description – episode has written

TBA   S15E11- filming now
No description – episode has been written
Ominous hint in QOTD: “When it is all finished, you will discover it was never random.”  NO AUTHOR (an unaccredited QOTD has not happened before as far as I can recollect).  It bears a striking resemblance to Michael’s speech to Dean in 5.13. The Song Remains the Same.

TBA   S15E10
No description
SPNDC main or gold panel: Sam and Dean become ‘normal’.  Sam has a cold, Dean has cavities. 

TBA   S15E09
No description
Director: Charles Beeson

Kim Rhodes back as Jody (twitter)

Jim Beaver back as (likely) AUBobby (twitter)

Shoshannah Stern back from the dead (I assume) as Eileen

TBA   S15E08 - Our Father, Who Aren't In Heaven
No description
Director: RSJ
Jake Able is back as Adam AND (likely Michael ..see “Date Mike” note)
LIKELY mid-season finale

5th Dec 2019   S15E07 - Last Call
CLOSING TIME – Dean (Jensen Ackles) goes off on his own to take on a case. Meanwhile, Castiel (Misha Collins) has an idea of how he can help Sam (Jared Padalecki) track down God. Amyn Kaderali directed the episode written by Jeremy Adams (#1507). Original Airdate 12/5/2019.

Guest Star: Christian Kane

Guest Star: potentially Adam Rose – picture taken on last day of filming.  Could be early for Ep 8 but I wonder if Sam is hanging with Cas AND Aaron.

21st Nov 2019   S15E06 - Golden Time
OUT OF DIFFICULTIES GROW MIRACLES – Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) are visited by an old friend. Castiel (Misha Collins) investigates the disappearance of a local teen. John Showalter directed the episode written by Meredith Glynn (#1506). Original Airdate 11/21/2019.

Guest Star: “old friend” – no freaking clue unless Chuck’s old publisher is now a witch and it isn’t just actor reuse.

14th Nov 2019   S15E05 - Proverbs 17:3  
7th Nov 2019   S15E04 - Atomic Monsters
24th Oct 2019   S15E03 - The Rupture
17th Oct 2019   S15E02 - Raising Hell
10th Oct 2019   S15E01 - Back and to the Future

A shot in the SPPT video looked like Dean walking in a junk yard. We have not seen it yet so I wondered if it was Bobby's old place and if so was he looking for the Horsemen rings to release Michael. Yes he would need to deal with Death. It's not like he doesn't know how to call her.

On 11/11/2019 at 10:47 PM, Myrelle said:

It's just going to be S5.

He's reworking the Winchester Gospels so that they end more or less like he originally planned.

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Smad

Smad

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

5th Dec 2019   S15E07 - Last Call
CLOSING TIME – Dean (Jensen Ackles) goes off on his own to take on a case. Meanwhile, Castiel (Misha Collins) has an idea of how he can help Sam (Jared Padalecki) track down God. Amyn Kaderali directed the episode written by Jeremy Adams (#1507). Original Airdate 12/5/2019.

Guest Star: Christian Kane

Guest Star: potentially Adam Rose – picture taken on last day of filming.  Could be early for Ep 8 but I wonder if Sam is hanging with Cas AND Aaron.

Yeah you know, I have an idea how to find God as well. And I have been saying it the entire Season so far.

CALL AMARA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't believe Dabb & Co. are so befuddlingly incompetent and of course the brothers and Cas look just as incompetent as a result. How have these guys not thought to reach out to Amara? They have mentioned her already (see soul bomb) but didn't take it to the conclusion they should have? Maybe this wouldn't bother me so much if they had put in a throwaway line from Dean saying he tried praying to her and she didn't come. Problem solved. But by not doing that and have the brothers not even think about reaching out to her, they make them look like giant morons. You have a God problem, he has a sister just as powerful, call her. It's as simple as 1+1=2. And it makes me absolutely impatient with this entire storyline (even more than I already was) because the obvious is not even considered by writers and therefor not by the brothers either. It's just so damn stupid.

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SueB

SueB

  • Author
1 hour ago, Smad said:

Yeah you know, I have an idea how to find God as well. And I have been saying it the entire Season so far.

CALL AMARA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't believe Dabb & Co. are so befuddlingly incompetent and of course the brothers and Cas look just as incompetent as a result. How have these guys not thought to reach out to Amara? They have mentioned her already (see soul bomb) but didn't take it to the conclusion they should have? Maybe this wouldn't bother me so much if they had put in a throwaway line from Dean saying he tried praying to her and she didn't come. Problem solved. But by not doing that and have the brothers not even think about reaching out to her, they make them look like giant morons. You have a God problem, he has a sister just as powerful, call her. It's as simple as 1+1=2. And it makes me absolutely impatient with this entire storyline (even more than I already was) because the obvious is not even considered by writers and therefor not by the brothers either. It's just so damn stupid.

Up until the end of the last episode, they thought God had gone (presumably taking Amara with him).  Now that they know he's here, they'll have to weigh contacting her versus where her loyalty lies.  What if she is pissed they shot Chuck? WE know she's tired of Chuck but they don't.  I'd approach Amara pretty cautiously if I was them.  

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

But that doesn't end the entire world. The writers need to separate their stupid meta from the internal logic of the show. This fictional world will not end if fictional Dean and/or Sam die in it. Even if the show ends. Therefore, Lilith's words were meta-gibberish. Chuck ending this particular world could be done if he burned it down or threw a meteor on it or something. Regardless of what happens with Dean or Sam.

A story needs that suspension of disbelief to have the world feel real. Currently, with their writing meta they are destroying that.

I'm thinking that she / they maybe meant that in addition to the one dead brother, the other living brother ends the world somehow afterwards. In other words in Chuck's "stories" the brother being killed is the last defense sort of thing, and once dead, the other brother would then eventually be the thing that destroys the world. (Though Lilith should have been more clear about that, since Dean didn't have the advantage of seeing Sam's visions / nightmares.)

The Lucifer!Sam scenario is fairly straightforward in that regard. So is mark of Cain Demon Dean - though that one may take a little longer. The only one I'm not sure of is Demon Blood Sam*** since unlike the other two scenarios, he didn't seem to have enough power to actually affect the rest of the world. Though it was interesting that Chuck gave Demon Blood Sam the power up of being able to kill humans also, since we never saw that in the original incarnation of Demon Blood Sam.

*** And how we got Demon Blood Sam without getting Lucifer rising (did he kill Lilith too early? Or did he find out about Lucifer and refuse to kill Lilith?)

Smad

Smad

37 minutes ago, SueB said:

Up until the end of the last episode, they thought God had gone (presumably taking Amara with him).  Now that they know he's here, they'll have to weigh contacting her versus where her loyalty lies.  What if she is pissed they shot Chuck? WE know she's tired of Chuck but they don't.  I'd approach Amara pretty cautiously if I was them.  

What-ifs, maybe-s...that's not a justification. And it wasn't just God they were dealing with. The gates of Hell were open all over the place with billions of freed evil spirits. So either way you have a God, or God caused, problem.

And I don't buy for a second any of the other justifications. Why? Because Amara has proven, time and again, that she won't hurt Dean even when Dean was about to possibly kill her (soul bomb). The worst thing she would do is tell him to get lost. And last I checked, her and Dean parted on good terms despite the soul bomb. So good in fact, she gave him his mother back as a selfless thank you. So no, I need better 'reasons' than that (from the writers).

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Casseiopeia

Casseiopeia

I'm wondering if we are going to get another S11 type scenario. Where all the factions of earth....demons, angels, Death, the Entity, Jack, Amara...whoever else all banding together to take down Chuck.  The finale is Dean counseling Chuck on his anger management issues. Chuck is grateful and  releases the Winchesters from their fates to go live happily ever after.

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SueB

SueB

  • Author
1 hour ago, Smad said:

What-ifs, maybe-s...that's not a justification. And it wasn't just God they were dealing with. The gates of Hell were open all over the place with billions of freed evil spirits. So either way you have a God, or God caused, problem.

And I don't buy for a second any of the other justifications. Why? Because Amara has proven, time and again, that she won't hurt Dean even when Dean was about to possibly kill her (soul bomb). The worst thing she would do is tell him to get lost. And last I checked, her and Dean parted on good terms despite the soul bomb. So good in fact, she gave him his mother back as a selfless thank you. So no, I need better 'reasons' than that (from the writers).

But up until the end of the last episode, they thought Chuck (and Amara) had LEFT.  I suppose they could have prayed to Amara but they thought the M.O. was to trash and leave.

Now that they know that Chuck is still here, maybe they'll think of Amara.

But I still think they'd be cautious.  And frankly, she's a big gun.  Dean reconciled Amara to Chuck, would he really kick over that beehive again?  

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SueB

SueB

  • Author
(edited)
2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm thinking that she / they maybe meant that in addition to the one dead brother, the other living brother ends the world somehow afterwards. In other words in Chuck's "stories" the brother being killed is the last defense sort of thing, and once dead, the other brother would then eventually be the thing that destroys the world. (Though Lilith should have been more clear about that, since Dean didn't have the advantage of seeing Sam's visions / nightmares.)

The Lucifer!Sam scenario is fairly straightforward in that regard. So is mark of Cain Demon Dean - though that one may take a little longer. The only one I'm not sure of is Demon Blood Sam*** since unlike the other two scenarios, he didn't seem to have enough power to actually affect the rest of the world. Though it was interesting that Chuck gave Demon Blood Sam the power up of being able to kill humans also, since we never saw that in the original incarnation of Demon Blood Sam.

*** And how we got Demon Blood Sam without getting Lucifer rising (did he kill Lilith too early? Or did he find out about Lucifer and refuse to kill Lilith?)

Since obviously YEARS had passed, Sam powered up.  So the question is how/when?  Where in the story did the universe split? Possible Options: 
Pre-AHBL Pt 1: Dean never tells Sam, Sam is unprepared for the Darkside moment and wins the competition.  I call this a low probability because as soon as Azazel showed up, Sam would balk IMO.
No Rest For the Wicked: Sam doesn't listen to his brother and starts to learn his Jedi tricks.  Sam kills Lilith and Dean NEVER goes to Hell.  Then no righteous man (John already escaped) and no Lucifer. I give this a medium probability as Sam killing Lilith seems unlikely. If Bela never stole the Colt, however, then they may have had a shot (pun intended). 
Metamorphosis: Sam lies to Dean and DOESN'T stop the power tricks.  He stops the rest of the seals from breaking so if he eventually kills Lillith, Lucifer isn't freed.  The problem with this is Angel interference. Since they wanted Ali/Frazier I don't know how he beats them. I give this a medium-low probability.

So... my best guess, somehow Dean does NOT go to Hell, there is no righteous man and Sam goes Darkside with the help of Ruby.  Sam then gets strong enough to kill Lilith and takes over Hell.  I originally thought Dean swaying Sam to resist his powers would be the thing but the more I think about it, the more I think any introduction of the Angels takes us to Lucifer Rising.  

Edited by SueB
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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

3 hours ago, SueB said:

So... my best guess, somehow Dean does NOT go to Hell, there is no righteous man and Sam goes Darkside with the help of Ruby.  Sam then gets strong enough to kill Lilith and takes over Hell. 

I'm not sure Ruby could get Sam to go darkside though without a Dean being in jeopardy reason. I could see Sam going darkside to save Dean from hell somehow though.

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juppschmitz

juppschmitz

7 hours ago, SueB said:

What if she is pissed they shot Chuck?

WHO shot Chuck?? 🙄

6 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I'm wondering if we are going to get another S11 type scenario. Where all the factions of earth....demons, angels, Death, the Entity, Jack, Amara...whoever else all banding together to take down Chuck.  The finale is Dean counseling Chuck on his anger management issues. Chuck is grateful and  releases the Winchesters from their fates to go live happily ever after.

*yawn*

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Smad

Smad

11 hours ago, SueB said:

But up until the end of the last episode, they thought Chuck (and Amara) had LEFT.  I suppose they could have prayed to Amara but they thought the M.O. was to trash and leave.

Now that they know that Chuck is still here, maybe they'll think of Amara.

But I still think they'd be cautious.  And frankly, she's a big gun.  Dean reconciled Amara to Chuck, would he really kick over that beehive again?  

Why would they assume God left? Did they literally see God leave their universe? Or did the plot demand they think that? There was nothing in the episodes to make them think that except the writers forcing it. Just because Chuck had an established habit to abandon universes he created doesn't mean he was gone from theirs. They had no evidence for that. Dean especially was always the one who operated on 'I believe it when I see it with my own eyes'.

And even then, as I already mentioned, they still have a God caused problem. Namely all gates of Hell open and billions of evil spirits/souls all over the world free to wreak havoc. God won't fix that and you need that power level to do it. Gee who else could help with that? They owe it to humanity to try. Or are they still, even in their final Season, not interested in the 'saving people' part anymore?

Considering they found out Chuck was a lying piece of crap and Oscar worthy actor fooling everybody, why would they believe the reunion with Amara went swimmingly? Or that their reconciliation was permanent? Or that he was truthful about Amara being in Reno? The only reason why they would believe that, not question it and not talk to Amara themselves is again because the plot demands it, nothing else.

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SueB

SueB

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52 minutes ago, Smad said:

Why would they assume God left? Did they literally see God leave their universe? Or did the plot demand they think that? There was nothing in the episodes to make them think that except the writers forcing it. Just because Chuck had an established habit to abandon universes he created doesn't mean he was gone from theirs. They had no evidence for that. Dean especially was always the one who operated on 'I believe it when I see it with my own eyes'.

And even then, as I already mentioned, they still have a God caused problem. Namely all gates of Hell open and billions of evil spirits/souls all over the world free to wreak havoc. God won't fix that and you need that power level to do it. Gee who else could help with that? They owe it to humanity to try. Or are they still, even in their final Season, not interested in the 'saving people' part anymore?

Considering they found out Chuck was a lying piece of crap and Oscar worthy actor fooling everybody, why would they believe the reunion with Amara went swimmingly? Or that their reconciliation was permanent? Or that he was truthful about Amara being in Reno? The only reason why they would believe that, not question it and not talk to Amara themselves is again because the plot demands it, nothing else.

Well yes.  But it was reasonably set up IMO. The ‘Chuck abandons his creations’ theme is practically series long but was given a specific meaning with Michael’s motivation in S14.  Now add Sam’s confrontation with Chuck in the Library — which confirmed the pattern of break and run for Chuck universes.  Was Dean too quick to buy Sam’s theory?  Maybe.  But seems reasonable as the other reality (which they are now facing) was too horrible to ponder.   The despair they now have, hamsters in the wheel for Chuck’s amusement, is pretty damn dark.  Sometimes the mind shuns the darkest of the darkest.  
 

But all that doesn’t take away that it was a plot point which did not go for a potentially convenient solution.  

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Castiels Cat

Castiels Cat

20 hours ago, Smad said:

Yeah you know, I have an idea how to find God as well. And I have been saying it the entire Season so far.

CALL AMARA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't believe Dabb & Co. are so befuddlingly incompetent and of course the brothers and Cas look just as incompetent as a result. How have these guys not thought to reach out to Amara? They have mentioned her already (see soul bomb) but didn't take it to the conclusion they should have? Maybe this wouldn't bother me so much if they had put in a throwaway line from Dean saying he tried praying to her and she didn't come. Problem solved. But by not doing that and have the brothers not even think about reaching out to her, they make them look like giant morons. You have a God problem, he has a sister just as powerful, call her. It's as simple as 1+1=2. And it makes me absolutely impatient with this entire storyline (even more than I already was) because the obvious is not even considered by writers and therefor not by the brothers either. It's just so damn stupid.

They cannot fix the problem before the finale.

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Castiels Cat

Castiels Cat

(edited)
1 hour ago, lmdreamer said:

What about Billie? Death is supposed to reap God, right?  Why don't they say Billies name or reach out to their demon babysitter and ask for help.

God cannot die or the universe ends. The babysitter is a reaper. Billie getting involved is a match. The end scene in 14 between her, the Empty and Jack rather suggests she will be pivotal. Also in SPPT video there's a scene of Dean walking in a junkyard. I wonder if it's Bobby's and if so is he there to collect the Horsemen rings; Death has hers.

Edited by Castiels Cat
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SueB

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(edited)

My attempt at a Unified Field Theory for future events, of course I expect to fail as well... but here goes:

EP 1-3: Hell Apocalypse, boys presumed Chuck was gone, Rowena dies saving the world.
EP 4: Becky convinces Chuck he CAN still write.  Chuck's first attempt is a pretty clumsy vampire/cheerleader plot that is improved with Becky's note.
EP 5: Chuck's new 'fic' is trying to convince the boys to just give up (weakly) and kill each other in the end; his primary motivation, however, is to re-introduce Lilith as an antagonist and melt the gun.
EP 6: I don't think Chuck knows Sam will witchy-up based on his God-wou nd but I expect the rest of the witch plot will be more of the same.
EP 7: Last Call - having failed at triggering a murder/suicide, Chuck tries to split up the brothers by giving Dean his 'fantasy' bro-partner.  He also 'gives' Dean the ability to sing.  Meanwhile Sam will dig into lore.  The point being Chuck's trying to show the brothers they can live without each other.
EP 8: Mythology heavy, if there is a case of the week I think it's the B-plot. Adam/Michael in the house.  Note, Jake only filmed for 3 days and had a dual role, so he's not the WHOLE plot. 

--- Christmas Break----

EP 9: AUBobby AND Jody back.  Is that a wrap on their characters?  Does the 'Bobby/Jody' connection happen?  If this is Chuck's writing, maybe he's trying to give 'happy endings' to others the boys care about.  Also, this is the episode that Dean prays to Cas.  On the one hand that'll make Destiel happy.  Unfortunately, as I've been working this out in my head, I think one of the reasons they call Cas is because they've figured out Chuck is NOT factoring Cas into their story.  I think the boys may feel it's an advantage.

EP 10: Dean and Sam become 'normal'.  I think Chuck takes away some of their skill set or at least hamper them with issues (cavities/cold).  Chuck may be trying to make the boys LESS capable than they are because they are too competent to beat?  Cas is back.

EP11-13: I think these will be Chuck trying out other theories of how to separate and defeat the boys. 

EP 14-18: Build up, alliances forming. Chuck's 'Big Bad' (likely Michael) is back and threatening.  I imagine they get Jack back at some point in this run.

EP 19-20 Two part finale. If S5 was a test they passed because of 'family', I think S15 will be a test they pass due to 'found family' (i.e. because Cas and Jack are there).  But I think it ends back where Chuck was always trying to go - one or both boys sacrifices each other so that the Universe can exist without Chuck interference. But I don't think they'll be 'dead dead'.  Maybe OUT of the current universe to an AU.  Somehow they have to make that deal with Chuck (maybe because Sam is connected, Chuck can’t leave unless Sam goes with him).  Dean either loses Sam or goes - both lose their found family but not each other.   

ALL RANDOM SPECULATION, NO INSIDE KNOWLEDGE.

Edited by SueB
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ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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