Spoilers With Speculation

[SueB]

@Lastcall pointed out in the Bitter Spoiler thread that the zombies are the new 'angels' Jack made 

[Bobcatkitten]

54 minutes ago, SueB said:

@Lastcall pointed out in the Bitter Spoiler thread that the zombies are the new 'angels' Jack made 

Now that is intriguing. 

[PAForrest]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Now that is intriguing. 

I agree, it's the most moderately interesting takeaway from the episode. It makes sense that Jack's attempt to create angels from humans, at Duma's behest, would quickly go sideways.

Though this little problem should be a one-off being being limited to these few individuals. Still, it's something for the guys to deal with in the finale.

[SueB]

So... MY prediction is that now that the box has come and gone, "Moriah" is going to be actually a reverse of the Abraham/Isaac situation.

Specifically, we already KNOW Dean is ready to take Jack out.  Cas & Sam may have doubts but Dean thinks it's the right thing to do.  So, while it's possible that Cas & Sam come to accept Dean's solution, I think it's MORE likely that Dean decides to show mercy towards Jack.

And yes, I think this IS another parallel to S5.  When we had Chuck say in voice over that he thought it was a 'test' for Sam and Dean and that they passed, I think we have another situation of extreme harm to a family member for Dean (Mary this time, not Sam) and Dean will pass.  Specifically, that he will put the needs of a sentient being who deserves mercy** over his need for vengeance***.  It is kindof odd that IMO DEAN is really the one being put to the test in terms of emotional trauma. Sam has the trama too, but he was making the sacrifice in S5 and he was just grateful for anytime with Mary in S12-14.   I swear, Dean's the "Job" (pronouce Jobe for those of you who don't know Judeo-Christian history) of Supernatural.  And Dabb would like that (the tie to Job, not that it's specifically Dean).    

**Why I think Chuck is team "mercy:
- Duma said "So he lost his capacity for goodness by performing a good act?"  I swear, that was the entire FREAKIN POINT of the Jack arc from a Eugenie Ross-Lemming perspective.  I can her her voice in my head on that issue.  THIS is what I suspect Eugenie was wanting to explote.  What is the righteous thing to do if an "innocent" turns evil because they did something good? So I think the writers are lobbying that Jack deserves mercy while at the same time showing how reasonable it was to come down on the side of safety for others.
- Cas and Duma specifically had a conversation about mercy in "Absence".  I definitely think this is a major theme right now. 
- Chuck is back.  He's not coming back to resurrect Mary.  He's coming back for Jack.  Which means he's ready to help his grandson (even if it was to take him out).  That's mercy right there.

***They are also, IMO, suggesting that while Cas & Sam see the safety issue, they are ready to let go of their anger and 'keep trying".  Dean is not. Dean says "I want him dead!". Evidence: Cas is flat out pissed about the box.  Sam implied that they gave up on Jack (versus 'keep trying like they always do'). 

Massive Disclaimer: I think this is an AWESOME idea so the probability of it working out this way is less.  Unlike many, I think it is a sign of investment in your protagonist if you put him through a moral dilemma, not a sign of disrepect.  Further, I don't know yet if we are the Dean/Chuck confrontation that I think is brewing, but I think this is one step.   

[ahrtee]

For those of us who do know some Judeo-Christian history:

33 minutes ago, SueB said:

THIS is what I suspect Eugenie was wanting to explote.  What is the righteous thing to do if an "innocent" turns evil because they did something good?

What about: "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"  (That's Matthew, btw.)**

**ETA:  TBH, I know it mostly from the Thomas More quote in A Man For All Seasons, when he said: "It profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world ... but for Wales?"

Edited April 19, 2019 by ahrtee

[Bobcatkitten]

Do you think Dean is acting out of vengeance or just saving people/hunting things as he has always done? 

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Do you think Dean is acting out of vengeance or just saving people/hunting things as he has always done? 

Both?

With Dick Roman, it was to save the world, but the vengeance was an extra motivating factor as well as a nice bonus, Or maybe it was the other way around? (Vengeance first, save the world as a bonus?)

The show has touched on this before with even though the vengeance doesn't always do much good in the long run, you still have to let them have it, and even help your loved ones get that vengeance.

Hopefully they will remember that, because Sam, of all people, knows this, and it would be an oversight if his character just somehow forgets that.

[Aeryn13]

Before Bucklemming tackle lofty themes like that, they might try simply things like remembering in their own damn script Dean making a quip about not wanting to be turned into a pillar of salt whereas in this script he needs the pillar of salt explained to him. Does the character have early onset Alzheimers or do the writers?

[Castiels Cat]

On 10/21/2018 at 12:50 AM, Casseiopeia said:

Promo pics from E3

http://www.ksitetv.com/supernatural/supernatural-the-scar-description-a-wayward-guest/184050/

like this one

I know most of you are unhappy that Michael seems to be gone for now....but I really missed this guy.

If there is going to be a twist it will be in the finale. I will not give up until the end credits role. As far as I am concerned, "long con Michael" could have planned this out to ... yada yada yada... get Dean to sacrifice Jack knowing that sacrificing an arcnephilim is a direct alarm bell to God and the only way to summon him.

Michael has an open conduit into Dean. He can re-enter at any time. So...

Everything about the end of Ouroboros felt staged by Michael just the way the entire front end of the Spear felt staged by Michael.

So....

And... I maintain the storyline is so much more than the connection between AT and Nihilism through Death and Dean's books. They spent two seasons in my opinion setting up Dean's psychology, his family history, his anxiety about losing Mary and Sam... Then in season 13 we watched him lose it and we watched him be one desperate and reckless. We watched other characters comment on it. For a change they were actually right. We saw TFW suffer because Dean was not right in the Vampire Cave debacle. I wrote about this for WFB however in summary they set up a tragic hero arc with his love of family and his desperate need to save them no matter what as his tragic flaw. He fell big time and they showed it literally in the finale,something they kept reminding of of this season in the THEN and both Kaia and Billie have reminded us of other reckless choices that combined lead him to say yes to evil psychopathic murderous Michael.

That is too much story to throw away.

I will not give up until the end credits.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

So... MY prediction is that now that the box has come and gone, "Moriah" is going to be actually a reverse of the Abraham/Isaac situation.

Specifically, we already KNOW Dean is ready to take Jack out.  Cas & Sam may have doubts but Dean thinks it's the right thing to do.  So, while it's possible that Cas & Sam come to accept Dean's solution, I think it's MORE likely that Dean decides to show mercy towards Jack.

And yes, I think this IS another parallel to S5.  When we had Chuck say in voice over that he thought it was a 'test' for Sam and Dean and that they passed, I think we have another situation of extreme harm to a family member for Dean (Mary this time, not Sam) and Dean will pass.  Specifically, that he will put the needs of a sentient being who deserves mercy** over his need for vengeance***.  It is kindof odd that IMO DEAN is really the one being put to the test in terms of emotional trauma. Sam has the trama too, but he was making the sacrifice in S5 and he was just grateful for anytime with Mary in S12-14.   I swear, Dean's the "Job" (pronouce Jobe for those of you who don't know Judeo-Christian history) of Supernatural.  And Dabb would like that (the tie to Job, not that it's specifically Dean).    

**Why I think Chuck is team "mercy:
- Duma said "So he lost his capacity for goodness by performing a good act?"  I swear, that was the entire FREAKIN POINT of the Jack arc from a Eugenie Ross-Lemming perspective.  I can her her voice in my head on that issue.  THIS is what I suspect Eugenie was wanting to explote.  What is the righteous thing to do if an "innocent" turns evil because they did something good? So I think the writers are lobbying that Jack deserves mercy while at the same time showing how reasonable it was to come down on the side of safety for others.
- Cas and Duma specifically had a conversation about mercy in "Absence".  I definitely think this is a major theme right now. 
- Chuck is back.  He's not coming back to resurrect Mary.  He's coming back for Jack.  Which means he's ready to help his grandson (even if it was to take him out).  That's mercy right there.

***They are also, IMO, suggesting that while Cas & Sam see the safety issue, they are ready to let go of their anger and 'keep trying".  Dean is not. Dean says "I want him dead!". Evidence: Cas is flat out pissed about the box.  Sam implied that they gave up on Jack (versus 'keep trying like they always do'). 

Massive Disclaimer: I think this is an AWESOME idea so the probability of it working out this way is less.  Unlike many, I think it is a sign of investment in your protagonist if you put him through a moral dilemma, not a sign of disrepect.  Further, I don't know yet if we are the Dean/Chuck confrontation that I think is brewing, but I think this is one step.   

Also ties into Alicia' Witt's character redeeming her soul by performing a selfless act that kills her yet which saves Jack.

I love this.

Also not ready to let Michael go and he did want to kill God.

Agree that Dean won't be able to do it... parallels also with season 11 finale.

Dichael is another story... see spec below.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

@Lastcall pointed out in the Bitter Spoiler thread that the zombies are the new 'angels' Jack made 

So they are. The question is why?

His energy is unstable. He is deconstructing... just like he did when he had no grace.

Unless they replenish his soul sparing him may not be merciful to anyone.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[SueB]

@ahrtee ITA, your soul is not something to screw with.  And his three Dads warned him and warned him.  But wisdom comes from age and experience.  He came up to speed quickly but his instincts to save are inherently good. 

@Bobcatkitten I’m with @AwesomO4000 that ‘both’ Is possible. Dean saved the universe by giving Amara the speech on Revenge is folly. He knows that. But it’s waaaaay too early for that justifiable anger to not have some influence.  And Dean is self aware enough to know that.  But his argument for safety holds water without that anger.  

@Castiels Cat I think there’s still a narrative path for AUMichael, not sure that they would want to carry that into the final season.  As for zomgles (zombie angels — somebody has to do it), why would we think angels could be made out of humans in the first place?   That was experimental at best. And Duma just had him go for it without letting him know any consequences.  

[Castiels Cat]

36 minutes ago, SueB said:

@ahrtee ITA, your soul is not something to screw with.  And his three Dads warned him and warned him.  But wisdom comes from age and experience.  He came up to speed quickly but his instincts to save are inherently good. 

@Bobcatkitten I’m with @AwesomO4000 that ‘both’ Is possible. Dean saved the universe by giving Amara the speech on Revenge is folly. He knows that. But it’s waaaaay too early for that justifiable anger to not have some influence.  And Dean is self aware enough to know that.  But his argument for safety holds water without that anger.  

@Castiels Cat I think there’s still a narrative path for AUMichael, not sure that they would want to carry that into the final season.  As for zomgles (zombie angels — somebody has to do it), why would we think angels could be made out of humans in the first place?   That was experimental at best. And Duma just had him go for it without letting him know any consequences.  

Not going to let it go just yet... too big a storyline for them to just drop. History of it seeming to be dropped when really Michael was long conning.

As for revenge... Dean's entire life's work "saving people, hunting things, the family business grew out of losing his mother at age four. He spent season 12 anxious over losing 12 and season 13 desperate to save her, increasingly on edge. I think it is safe to say his most intensexand complicated emotions are reserved for his mother. Jack essentially committed matricide. It is the ultimate sin. For Dean IT IS THE ULTIMATE SIN. I think it may actually trump killing Sam. Most fans may abhor her however she was everything to Dean. 

Dean's storyline has been told using Greek epic and tragic tropes. Revenge is ever so appropriate. It is one of the reasons having Jack assume the hero's mantle in Ouroboros,,an episode in which he dispatches a gorgon like Perseus and regains his wings is so poetic. Also the matricide should be no surprise nor the fact that Mary's out for revenge through Dean.

They really emphasized Dean's father bond with Jack during his human death. Now we know why. Jack is not whole. He is not safe. I submit he can no longer be a Winchester after his admission. There just is no going back.

Even if he is fixed... then what.

It is too much. Yeah this stuff got forgiven all of the time on the VD. I don't see Dean being all smiles in the premiere about Jack smiting Mary and almost executing him in return.

There has to be a bigger plot payoff. A twist bigger than... yawn. Chuck.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[SueB]

I just want to clarify a point in case Someone gets an unintended impression:

- Mercy is not forgiveness

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

 As for zomgles (zombie angels — somebody has to do it)

Somebody did. @Lastcall came up with Angies. I love it.😂

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

I just want to clarify a point in case Someone gets an unintended impression:

- Mercy is not forgiveness

Point taken.

I still see no way back from that conversation. 

Going back to my Greek roots thoughts and they have gone Greek for Dean and for Jack's little hero arc by proxy.  Last year I compared the Winchester family tragedy to the tragedy of the House of Atreus which has its roots in crimes previously executed but is best known for the matricide and its followup which in its earliest iteration, the Oresteia by Aeschylus  Is used to show the transistion from revenge or vengeance driven blood feuds into societal driven justice (mercy maybe) through the transistion of the goddesses known as the Erinyes or Furies into the Euminides or Gracious Ones.

Now... I do think even Dean will not want to do this despite his fury. I also think they deliberately went so far in the discussion scene that things can never be the same. I do not want them to have summarily dropped Dichael ergo hope springs eternal that Dean's hand will stay only for Dichael to finish it to summon God... enter one of their heinous flashbacks tying it all together. 

He wrote out a spell for Rowena to find with yada yada kill an arcnephilim. He used the library when he was in Dean to find out how to summon God. And everything at the end of Ouroboros was hinky. Otherwise that was a pretty perfect episode.

Yes. I am very stuck on Dichael. Too much set-up. They double downed with the Billie scene in Nihilism. 

I also think Jack doing his "I want to help" was long telegraphed and not a last minute switch. They have been planning this all season. Just rewatch the father-son trip and Byzantium imagine now Dean preparing himself to kill someone he thought of as his son because that child went dark like Sammy never did and killed his Mom on his watch. 

Maximum angst. Totally planned. 

So I will hold onto Dichael's magnificent cold hard Corpse for now.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[SueB]

@Castiels Cat note: not laughing at you, I just like your turn of phrase. 

[mertensia]

On 4/17/2019 at 6:08 PM, SueB said:

I don't think they are bringing anyone back but mindless dead things than need to be killed.

Well just great. The USFL is coming back, then.

[SueB]

Anticipating the "angies", I think Jack is an abject lesson on why Chuck told angels don't make nephilim. The beings run of the risk of being "unstable" - not mentally, but physically/power wise.  I wonder if Chuck comes back because this mess is so unstable now.  Jack just needs to be either fixed back with a soul or taken off the board (i.e. go on holiday w/ Chuck).  

[Castiels Cat]

16 hours ago, SueB said:

@Castiels Cat note: not laughing at you, I just like your turn of phrase. 

I knew that...lol.

[ParadoxLost]

On 4/15/2019 at 6:07 PM, SueB said:

Honestly, I'm more worried about the potential damage Chuck could do than the potential good.  

For whatever reason Chuck is appearing, I suspect they'll also use it as a shortcut to set up the final season without having to figure out how navigate from this mess to whatever they are going to do.

[ILoveReading]

Sneak Peek

[Bobcatkitten]

I'm kind of over Sam looking so pained and Dean looking like he is evil. If Sam has another option then please freaking speak up.

[Castiels Cat]

9 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I'm kind of over Sam looking so pained and Dean looking like he is evil. If Sam has another option then please freaking speak up.

Well in all fairness Jack did usurp his storyline too.

Sam in all his empathy is realizing just how lucky he was that Dean didn't go all Literal righteous man biblical style on his ass like John suggested in season 2 or like Dean thought he would have too in season 6. Dean never gave up on Sam. Dean never gave Nick a chance and begrudgingly gave Jack a chance which is now over. Stanford Sam sees the parallels in their shared storylines and the coolness in his brother's eyes and the seeming ease with which Dean drinks Ketch's smooth scotch. Sam with pained expression on his face thinks... whoa... change one little thing and Dean would be drinking that scotch after having dealt summarily with me... pained wince. I hope there is botox money for poor Sammy.

[gonzosgirrl]

37 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I'm kind of over Sam looking so pained and Dean looking like he is evil. If Sam has another option then please freaking speak up.

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

[Castiels Cat]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

I have been over the so-called bitchface for years yet it never stops giving.

[SueB]

It occurred to me that brief flash of an archangel blade combined with Dean using a gun means they made archangel bullets. Michael’s blade was likely still there.   Given the limited population of Archangels who would need to be shanked by that blade, a standoff weapon like a gun makes more sense.  So they would have limited number of bullets but also a limited number of targets.  

I don’t think they make a soul bomb (as suggested in the sneak peek). But it does show Dean is prepared for a suicide mission to stop Jack.  

[catrox14]

50 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

That's what I thought too. Except I see no reason why the "must be wielded by an archangel" rule shouldn't also apply to bullets, so I'm wondering how or if they bother mentioning that. Either Jack is an exception, or they'd need to infuse archangel grace (or some kind of power - bastardized soul-bomb projectile? lol) somehow. 

Remind me, friends. When Dean was shot in the AU what were the bullets used? I know it was poisoning him, but why?

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

It occurred to me that brief flash of an archangel blade combined with Dean using a gun means they made archangel bullets. Michael’s blade was likely still there.   Given the limited population of Archangels who would need to be shanked by that blade, a standoff weapon like a gun makes more sense.  So they would have limited number of bullets but also a limited number of targets.  

I don’t think they make a soul bomb (as suggested in the sneak peek). But it does show Dean is prepared for a suicide mission to stop Jack.  

The promo shows a spell on the gun Dean is using... so Rowena or someone finds something that they think is going to work on Jack that they have not used previously. This in itself puts my spidey senses in high gear since I still sense a master plan by Michael at play in all of this... but that is just me apparently. 

They are certainly aware of Crowley's use of angel blade bullets so I don't see why not, especially if there is a spell involved that requires archangely stuff. 

Per Scoobynatural, Dean always has a plan B. Soul bombs may be plan B...

Edited April 24, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Remind me, friends. When Dean was shot in the AU what were the bullets used? I know it was poisoning him, but why?

Ketch said it was similar to BMOL tech. He was shot by people collaborating with the angels. The angels pretty much had an extermination plan in action.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Remind me, friends. When Dean was shot in the AU what were the bullets used? I know it was poisoning him, but why?

This is from the Superwiki synopsis.

Quote

As Dean and Ketch make their way to the Northern Camp, Ketch does not recognize the type of bullets the hunter was using, but Dean knows they are angel-killing bullets. Suddenly, Dean collapses. Ketch checks on Dean -- he is running a fever and his shoulder wound is black and infected. Ketch believes the hunter’s bullets were laced with a poison similar to one the British Men of Letters use to disable and kill prey, and he begins the process of making an antidote.

[SueB]

AU folks all had Angel killing bullets out of Angel blades.  

[S Cook Productions]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

The promo shows a spell on the gun Dean is using... so Rowena or someone finds something that they think is going to work on Jack that they have not used previously. This in itself puts my spidey senses in high gear since I still sense a master plan by Michael at play in all of this... but that is just me apparently. 

They are certainly aware of Crowley's use of angel blade bullets so I don't see why not, especially if there is a spell involved that requires archangely stuff. 

Per Scoobynatural, Dean always has a plan B. Soul bombs may be plan B...

Is Rowena in the finale?

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, S Cook Productions said:

Is Rowena in the finale?

Oh... doesn't one of the promos have Dean talking about calling Rowena to make a soul bomb thingee...

8 hours ago, SueB said:

AU folks all had Angel killing bullets out of Angel blades.  

I had forgotten that. Well they were in the business of killing angels.

[Castiels Cat]

9 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This is from the Superwiki synopsis.

.Ihuh...I never understood why they were shot at to be honest. I thought it was human collaborators that shot them for some reason because they had that weird nazi vibe.

[SueB]

true.   But i think he’s talking about Chuck.  

[gonzosgirrl]

At least he's honest about being a lying liar who lies.

At this point they should just rename Dean "Job" and get it over with.

I sincerely hope Dabb never gets another job (pronounced 'jawb') in television.

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

true.   But i think he’s talking about Chuck.  

Agreed.

About what????

The sacrifice is a God summoning???  Dean kills Jack and Chuck is automatically summoned. Enter Michael... mwahahaha...

[NougatJack]

On 4/16/2019 at 8:08 AM, NougatJack said:

https://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/spoilers/21579-promotional-pictures-for-supernatural-episode-14-19#comment-4424751572

Here are some other pics. Bobby is there, and Jack also returns to the bunker. Castiel wants to go to heaven, I think to investigate the death of Mary.

That‘s good, I really hope they will soon find out who really is responsible for Marys death, and I think heaven is the right place.

I have to correct myself. I don‘t believe anymore that the angels killed Mary. I just watched the season finale and I know it was Chuck.

Cas called for god in „Game Night“, which draws Chuck‘s attention to OG universe and Jack. Chuck feared that Jack could become too powerful someday. He wanted Jack dead, and for his own amusement, one of the Winchesters should kill him. And what would be a better motivation for Sam and Dean to kill Jack than that Jack apparently murdered their own mother? So he (Chuck) got access to Jack when Jack heared that loud angel radio noise. Probably Chuck controlled Jack when he „killed“ Mary. That´s why Jack couldn‘t bring her back, because she has been killed by god himself.

Plus, Mary shouldn‘t be alive at all, she died already long ago, and I‘m sure that Chuck is all for keeping the things as they should be.

That‘s probably what Billy wants to tell Jack, when she declares „We have to talk“, when they met in the empty. I mean, she is Death after all, so she should know it.

I know, even Jack believes that he killed Mary, but only because he assumes it cause he can‘t think of another possibility, and it „happened so fast“.

But I don‘t believe the crap that Jack killed Mary, and not only because obviously I like him. It does make perfectly sense that Chuck killed Mary.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, NougatJack said:

But I don‘t believe the crap that Jack killed Mary, and not only because obviously I like him. It does make perfectly sense that Chuck killed Mary. 

It's a convenient way to avoid Jack being bad. It was shown in the episode with Jack and the teens that he couldn't control his powers and he had just purposefully killed humans by trying to turn them into angels. He may have been manipulated into doing it but he still did it.

He was convinced he was right to do Heavens bidding and he didn't want to be called out for it. For as much power as he had iand not having the savvy to know right from wrong or the soul to guide him and he was upset with Mary then just with a thought he killed her even though he didn't want to do it. He killed her by accident.

ETA: he also felt he was 100% right on killing Nick and either he intended to torture him as he did or had no control which still makes it even more believable and likely he killed Mary and not Chuck.

Edited April 27, 2019 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

Quote

It's a convenient way to avoid Jack being bad.

And it makes him a terribly weak character for me. Which is ironic what with the OPness. But this constant need to baby him and never give him a true edge or flaw? That`s as appealing to me as a Teletubby. 

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

That`s as appealing to me as a Teletubby.  

Hey now, at least the Teletubbies have color! Jack is so beige he wears beige... OMG the costumer was telling us all along!

[ahrtee]

In theory, if Chuck wrote everything, then everything that happened came from him, including Jack being born in the first place and all of his (good and bad) actions.  

But if Jack is supposedly equal to or stronger than Chuck, then anything Jack did was on his own, taking on his own life and going against Chuck's writing, which is why he saw Jack as a threat.  So Jack is indeed responsible for his own actions.

To me, the more interesting question raised by Chuck's assertion that he wrote *everything* is, did he also write Amara, so she doesn't really exist in fact, or, if she is real (as an equal being to him) once she was freed, did she rewrite her own section of the story, which including bringing Mary back?  If he wrote her, I assume he can rewrite her to make her weaker (or a Keno junkie), but if she's real, she can fight him again.  

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/27/2019 at 11:48 AM, ahrtee said:

In theory, if Chuck wrote everything, then everything that happened came from him, including Jack being born in the first place and all of his (good and bad) actions.  

But if Jack is supposedly equal to or stronger than Chuck, then anything Jack did was on his own, taking on his own life and going against Chuck's writing, which is why he saw Jack as a threat.  So Jack is indeed responsible for his own actions.

To me, the more interesting question raised by Chuck's assertion that he wrote *everything* is, did he also write Amara, so she doesn't really exist in fact, or, if she is real (as an equal being to him) once she was freed, did she rewrite her own section of the story, which including bringing Mary back?  If he wrote her, I assume he can rewrite her to make her weaker (or a Keno junkie), but if she's real, she can fight him again.  

He didn't write her. She was separate from his creations. That much was made clear in s 11. He wrote the stuff about her being the biggest bad ever. The Darkness... but he did not create her. They both existed and she appeared to be stronger than him which might imply that she was older since in the Supernaturalverse older supernatural beings tend to be stronger. 

She was not into creating. She could conceivably do the job if she has acclimated to humanity. She learned a lot from Dean and she resurrected Mary without a hitch. I have a feeling she will be in play next season. 

The last few seconds suggested a super team effort... all hands on deck scenario. If Death and the Empty are helping everyone and anyone can be resurrected.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/27/2019 at 11:09 AM, catrox14 said:

It's a convenient way to avoid Jack being bad. It was shown in the episode with Jack and the teens that he couldn't control his powers and he had just purposefully killed humans by trying to turn them into angels. He may have been manipulated into doing it but he still did it.

He was convinced he was right to do Heavens bidding and he didn't want to be called out for it. For as much power as he had iand not having the savvy to know right from wrong or the soul to guide him and he was upset with Mary then just with a thought he killed her even though he didn't want to do it. He killed her by accident.

ETA: he also felt he was 100% right on killing Nick and either he intended to torture him as he did or had no control which still makes it even more believable and likely he killed Mary and not Chuck.

Jack killed Mary. He lost his temper. He may have had his inner crazy talking at the time however he still lost his temper. The Jack is not in control drum was being beaten for several episodes. 

Jack was given dark storylines that mirrored those of all three dads: Sam's soullessness, Cas's I swallowed the Leviathan and went Gonzo crazy with power, and Dean's MoC/Michael nobile sacrifice arc.

There is absolutely no question that he lost control.

[Castiels Cat]

9 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

Whats the bet those random extra-super old demon things (I forgot what they were straight away tbh) that Asmodeus-Donatello almost got Jack to release way back, are included in escaping hell in whatever Chuck did? -  kinda fully expect everyone to have forgotten about /dropped them. But at the same time they were so left field and pointless in the first place it felt weird that it never went anywhere. Add in their need to one up everything, & if your average hell souls aren’t bad enough ...well they’re already introduced something else

The shadeeeeemmm (sp) with their extremely bad manicures? 

That weird storyline showed us that Leghorn Foghorn was rogue and all sorts of shady, had inexplicable powers. It also teased danger when Jack used his full powers and showed that he was basically an Energizer bunny for others to use as a mirror for daddy dearest.

[SueB]

Well, Emily is auditioning for jobs.  If they plan on using her for Amara, they haven't secured her.

Also, they are back in the writer's room.  So far seeing tweets from Davy Perez, Steve Yockey (not positive, but he tweeted a response to Perez about being on SM), Meredith Glynn, Dabb (based on the EW story).  Meghan Amanda is there (appears still in support roll).  Berens is tweeting but hasn't made it clear if he's working on Supernatural.

 

 

Dabb/Jensen comments:

They filmed this on the day of the announcement for final season.  I'm surprised the boys are coherent.

Obvious "God is the Big Bad" is the big theme, not much else in details.

Edited May 16, 2019 by SueB

[SueB]

Bits from the just released featurette that I felt were closer to tactical spoilers than generic 'show is ending' stuff.

• Berens: “Dean’s refusal to do what God asked him to do represents, in a sense, Dean saying he wants off this ride. That he’s endured enough.” Scene of Dean saying “No.”
• ERL: This is deadly earnest to the Winchesters, this is life and death, this is pain.  They’re feeling this stuff that Chuck is just playing with as an intellectual game. Dean’s sense of integrity and justice is irritated and challenged and I think he has left over feelings of remorse that he didn’t do enough to save Jack.
• Berens: “He’s ready to stop. On a meta-level, he’s almost willing the show into its final season.”
• Scene of Dean saying ‘This isn’t just a story, it’s our lives.’ Dabb: “In those final moments when Dean confronts him, it’s basically like ‘I don’t choose to follow your story anymore, I choose to do what I want to do. And God responds to that by saying, ‘Then story over’.” Shot of Chuck saying “Welcome to the end.”

What makes this a spoiler, IMO, is that there is literally NO mention of Sam in this decision.  No mention of the gunshot.  

Now Sam was clearly totally on board.  And this could have been just their editing of the featurette, but they really seem to be saying Dean was the TFW spokesperson who made the choice to refuse God.  

Which leads me to the following speculation: Sam show Chuck in the shoulder.  He did that on purpose.  Sam's a good shot, he wasn't aiming to kill.  I think he was already a few steps ahead and 1) wanted to see if the gun could hurt Chuck and 2) just wanted to hurt Chuck cause he was pissed.  IDK.  Somehow their silence on this seems important to me.  Which is why I put these comments in this thread.  

I'll take my general comments regarding the 'end of Supernatural' to the ending thread. 

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, SueB said:

What makes this a spoiler, IMO, is that there is literally NO mention of Sam in this decision.  No mention of the gunshot.  

Now Sam was clearly totally on board.  And this could have been just their editing of the featurette, but they really seem to be saying Dean was the TFW spokesperson who made the choice to refuse God.  

Taking this to the "Bitch vs Jerk" thread just in case and also hoping that my head doesn't explode in the process...

My general reaction: WtF?

Edited to add: Okay wait,,,, I can't take it to "B vs J." Damn. I'll take it to "Bitter Spoilers" and hope that will be good enough. *crosses fingers*

Edited May 18, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[ahrtee]

I don't know if this is spoilers or public appearances, but it seems that Jensen announced at JIB that he's going to direct the "first episode the crew is shooting" (not necessarily ep. 1) in season 15.

https://www.nerdsandbeyond.com/2019/05/19/jensen-ackles-to-direct-in-season-15-of-supernatural/