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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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DeeDee79

DeeDee79

19 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

If Mary is really dead, or lost and nowhere found, I know Dean would be very mad, but sure he has to remember that Jack also saved his Sammy´s life, so Dean wouldn´t want to murder our precious lil´ nougat,, right? RIGHT???

Wrong.

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

45 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

If Mary is really dead, or lost and nowhere found, I know Dean would be very mad, but sure he has to remember that Jack also saved his Sammy´s life, so Dean wouldn´t want to murder our precious lil´ nougat,, right? RIGHT???

If Jack can't control his powers that makes him dangerous, not a precious cinnamon roll.  Its like a toddler with a gun. 

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SueB

SueB

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1 hour ago, NougatJack said:

If Mary is really dead, or lost and nowhere found, I know Dean would be very mad, but sure he has to remember that Jack also saved his Sammy´s life, so Dean wouldn´t want to murder our precious lil´ nougat,, right? RIGHT???

More like "put him down" versus murder.  Look, I don't WANT this.  I don't want Mary dead (but I think she is).  But if Jack is soulless and there is no hope of recovery (the soul isn't someplace else, it's been burned off), he'll assess Jack's threat level (super high - given his instinct was to burn a human alive and he may have involuntarily killed Mary) and take steps to either control Jack or kill him.  

And Jack would agree.  It's what Dean promised Jack in 13.2.  

Example: When Soulless Sam decided he no longer wanted a soul, he went after Bobby and nearly commited 'patricide'.  Dean was prepared for Sam to die in the attempt to have Death put his soul back.  Counter-example: Donatello has no soul.  BUT Donatello's instinct is to be guided by Mr Rogers and he wants to do good (like the Lizzie-fan from S11). Donatello, however, doesn't have power.  Donatello isn't a toddler/teen.  

So yeah, Dean will put humanity first over Jack.   And it'll be emotionally devastating for him. 

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

27 minutes ago, SueB said:

So yeah, Dean will put humanity first over Jack.   And it'll be emotionally devastating for him. 

This is a big problem with the show lately.  They don't put humanity first.  Not since season 8.  If they put Humanity first Dean would be a the bottom of the ocean now.

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catrox14

catrox14

22 minutes ago, SueB said:

And Jack would agree.  It's what Dean promised Jack in 13.2.   

And conversely, Jack promised Cas, that if he had to kill Dean in order to kill Michael, that Dean didnt matter, and his argument was that Dean would want that as well, which Dean never knew was said. Jack wasn't showing any signs of being a toddler during that argument with Cas.  Jack was regressed to Toddler!Jack solely to make Jack do bad things because he has no control so his NougatSue status is not harmed.

If the show would have picked a lane for Jack and didn't bounce him from angsty teen to woobie toddler Jack (they had Jack literally say he was two a couple of episodes ago yet when he was talking to Cas about Dean he wasn't coming off as young), then whatever happens between Dean and Jack, it would be more of equals battling. Unfortunately, I fully expect that now that he's back to poor woobie two year old Nougat Jack, they'll set up Dean to be the one to take him out, say something mean to Cas, and it causes Sam to become peacemaker.  And Dean will be the villain for even thinking of killing Jack.

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catrox14

catrox14

20 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is a big problem with the show lately.  They don't put humanity first.  Not since season 8.  If they put Humanity first Dean would be a the bottom of the ocean now.

And if Dean does pick humanity over Jack, I think Sam and Cas will hate him for doing it.

And the manner of death, will be Dean being the one to put Jack in the Malak Box. He might even do it without Sam and Cas because they talked him out of putting himself in the box so surely they will not approve of him helping put Jack in the Box.

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Myrelle

Myrelle

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

And if Dean does pick humanity over Jack, I think Sam and Cas will hate him for doing it.

And the manner of death, will be Dean being the one to put Jack in the Malak Box. He might even do it without Sam and Cas because they talked him out of putting himself in the box so surely they will not approve of him helping put Jack in the Box.

This would be the way that he should go, IMO.

Just Dean doing the dirty work again and cleaning up the mess.

This one should REALLY! mess with his psyche, though...

Oops! But there I go forgetting all about those anti-bodies to trauma of his again. 

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catrox14

catrox14

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I'd say Mary is a goner. 

I also think the episode is going to be Cas and Sam vs Dean.  That is the impression I get from body language in the promo photos.

So they just use digital art now instead of actually using stills from the show? LOL

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Lastcall

Lastcall

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I'd say Mary is a goner. 

I also think the episode is going to be Cas and Sam vs Dean.  That is the impression I get from body language in the promo photos.

I think we are being trolled. They will keep teasing Mary’s death until the finale and when it truly looks like she is gone forever...BAM...Chuck resurrection.

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MysteryGuest

MysteryGuest

It seems weird to me that they would kill Mary right after having John come back, only to have to lose him again.  Not to mention, Jack accidentally kills Mary after just bringing Sam back to life and now he can't save Mary?  Is he officially de-powered again since he's out of soul juice?  And is killing off characters the only way for these writers to come up with some drama?  I really hate the "someone must die" at the end of every season.  

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catrox14

catrox14

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

It seems weird to me that they would kill Mary right after having John come back, only to have to lose him again.  Not to mention, Jack accidentally kills Mary after just bringing Sam back to life and now he can't save Mary?  Is he officially de-powered again since he's out of soul juice?  And is killing off characters the only way for these writers to come up with some drama?  I really hate the "someone must die" at the end of every season.  

I 100% believe if Mary doesn't die, it's because she will be revealed to be pregnant with John's child. Or maybe she'll have been blasted by Jack back in time or to another universe.

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ZennyKenny

ZennyKenny

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

Not to mention, Jack accidentally kills Mary after just bringing Sam back to life and now he can't save Mary?  

You know, that's a really good point. Plus the next episode is called "Absence", right? So that implies that Mary is missing, rather than dead. Cos you're right, otherwise he should be able to resurrect her as he just did twice in a row.

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nightwing877

nightwing877

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

It seems weird to me that they would kill Mary right after having John come back, only to have to lose him again.  Not to mention, Jack accidentally kills Mary after just bringing Sam back to life and now he can't save Mary?  Is he officially de-powered again since he's out of soul juice?  And is killing off characters the only way for these writers to come up with some drama?  I really hate the "someone must die" at the end of every season.  

Yeah it gets predictable alright, there are other ways to drive up some drama, then just killing people for shock value. I find it really is done as just for some drama and shock.

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juppschmitz

juppschmitz

14 hours ago, Lastcall said:

I think we are being trolled. They will keep teasing Mary’s death until the finale and when it truly looks like she is gone forever...BAM...Chuck resurrection.

I think this "families falling apart" is probably about Dean's tiff with Cas 🤷

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

16 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

I think this "families falling apart" is probably about Dean's tiff with Cas 🤷

I think this Berens way of getting Dean off screen for a bit since this is the ep Jensen was reigning as King.  Sam will defend Cas and Dean will storm off in a huff. 

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ahrtee

ahrtee

Shadows are falling and I'm running out of breath
Keep me in your heart for a while
If I leave you it doesn't mean I love you any less...

The question to me is, how can she love them any less?

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gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Shadows are falling and I'm running out of breath
Keep me in your heart for a while
If I leave you it doesn't mean I love you any less...

The question to me is, how can she love them any less?

LOL! There was a tweet from Ruth Connell where said she was taking Meredith McGlynn into 'witchness protection' after End Game.

I wanted so badly to ask what she was protecting her from? Being hoisted up on people's shoulders in gratitude?

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PAForrest

PAForrest

14 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

The question to me is, how can she love them any less?

Less than not at all? Yeah, that's tough. Though I guess technically she can - meaning she can outright hate them, which where it concerns Dean, is a real possibility.

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Lastcall

Lastcall

1 hour ago, Jakes said:

Seems so--the big question...does Mary stay dead?  Especially with Chuck coming back.  I'm not sure.

I just can’t believe Mary will ever be permadead. It occurred to me the other night that Amara made her immortal so she could torment...err “love” Dean forever. 

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PAForrest

PAForrest

3 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

I just can’t believe Mary will ever be permadead. It occurred to me the other night that Amara made her immortal so she could torment...err “love” Dean forever. 

I really don't understand why the showrunners insist on still trying to make a big deal out of death - anyone's death - year after year after year. They can't possibly not have seen the thousands of complaints over the years - and not just fan complaints, but media blogger complaints - that death is a joke on this show because everyone knows it's meaningless. No one stays dead, unless or until a showrunner or writer leaves and the next one wants to dump his OC so he/she doesn't get paid for him/her anymore. Or they have a beef with an actor, ala Mark Sheppard, or they get bored with someone. Then a character may stay dead - maybe.

Otherwise, someone's gonna die - until they're not dead anymore for plot reasons.

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ahrtee

ahrtee

5 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

I really don't understand why the showrunners insist on still trying to make a big deal out of death - anyone's death - year after year after year. They can't possibly not have seen the thousands of complaints over the years - and not just fan complaints, but media blogger complaints - that death is a joke on this show because everyone knows it's meaningless. No one stays dead, unless or until a showrunner or writer leaves and the next one wants to dump his OC so he/she doesn't get paid for him/her anymore. Or they have a beef with an actor, ala Mark Sheppard, or they get bored with someone. Then a character may stay dead - maybe.

Otherwise, someone's gonna die - until they're not dead anymore for plot reasons.

Actually, what I've noticed is that pretty much anyone they like is allowed *one* resurrection, except for Sam's love interests.  (Favorites may get another turn as a ghost or AU character.)   But the only ones who've been resurrected constantly/consistently/every time are Sam, Dean and Cas.  And Lucifer, who's as hard to kill as a cockroach.

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SueB

SueB

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(edited)
9 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

So I'm guessing this is the consequence of Jack using the BOtD trying to resurrect Mary.  Sometimes they come back wrong?

Well, as powerful as Jack is, he could have altered EVERYTHING and now those who die don’t stay dead.  Maybe a local (Midwest/Great Plains) phenomena, maybe the entire planet.  

Recipe for Disaster:

Take one powerful spell from Book of the Damned (which makes Biblical class magic)

Mix in 1 Part Mary Winchester ashes and 2 parts random soil (earth)

Add the DESPERATE will of the most powerful being on the planet.

Light on fire and power by panicked Toddler Archangel Nephilim

Bake for 1 episode.  

Bam - the dead are rising in Kansas. 

ETA:  This means Jack is not around to fix it in 14.20.   Maybe Chuck.  

Edited by SueB
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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

Thinking about that picture of Dean with all the Zombies, further fuels my speculation that Dean is going to be the last one standing.

It seems like Sam and Dean are discussing killing Jack.  Given the title my guess is that they are going to attempt to lock him in the malak box.   In order to do that they will have to trick him.  It seems like they will lure him to cemetary.

My guess is that Jack gets wind of the plan and raises a zombie army to defend himself.  Given all the set up of Sam being the only one to have guilt about Michael, he'll tell Dean to go stop the zombies while he deals with Jack. 

Sam attempts to talk Jack down but it goes wrong and Sam ends up somehow in the box with Jack.  Dean can't open it without letting Jack out.

Mary's is dead.

They created a riff between Dean and Cas. 

Dean is the last one standing.  Repeat of season 7 cliffhanger. 

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S Cook Productions

S Cook Productions

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Thinking about that picture of Dean with all the Zombies, further fuels my speculation that Dean is going to be the last one standing.

It seems like Sam and Dean are discussing killing Jack.  Given the title my guess is that they are going to attempt to lock him in the malak box.   In order to do that they will have to trick him.  It seems like they will lure him to cemetary.

My guess is that Jack gets wind of the plan and raises a zombie army to defend himself.  Given all the set up of Sam being the only one to have guilt about Michael, he'll tell Dean to go stop the zombies while he deals with Jack. 

Sam attempts to talk Jack down but it goes wrong and Sam ends up somehow in the box with Jack.  Dean can't open it without letting Jack out.

Mary's is dead.

They created a riff between Dean and Cas. 

Dean is the last one standing.  Repeat of season 7 cliffhanger. 

Wow! You know, that’s not such a crazy speculation. They have been foreshadowing zombies a lot with Jack lately. Jack told the Lebanon teens there were no such things as zombies, and he told the Winchester’s that it’s illegal to raise a zombie in some countries. Seems like a lot of talk recently about zombies. If Jack is thinking about them with that BotD spell- then they could indeed be brought forth. 

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

With the title "Moriah" and Chuck being back, it seems to point to a rather literal version of father(s) - I guess plural in this case - attempting to sacrifice son (Jack) and God coming in at the last second to stop it. 

50/50 on if he takes Nougat with him afterwards to clean house in terms of Nickifer, Mary, Jack for Season 15. 

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Myrelle

Myrelle

(edited)
2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

With the title "Moriah" and Chuck being back, it seems to point to a rather literal version of father(s) - I guess plural in this case - attempting to sacrifice son (Jack) and God coming in at the last second to stop it. 

50/50 on if he takes Nougat with him afterwards to clean house in terms of Nickifer, Mary, Jack for Season 15. 

Yeah, I'm going with this, too, but for me I'd say that it's more 70/30 that he will take him. 

It's the perfect deux ex machina/Dabbernatural ending for the Nougatbaby and it's not even really an ending, tbh, because they can always bring him back just like they can bring Chuck and Amara back at any time they like.

The one thing I would like to see is no respect for Chuck from Dean-not after all he's been through.

Edited by Myrelle
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Castiels Cat

Castiels Cat

21 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

So I'm guessing this is the consequence of Jack using the BOtD trying to resurrect Mary.  Sometimes they come back wrong?

Lol... you posted it for me. Thanks. This is exactly what I was thinking of...

What might Jack have brought back with his spell?

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SueB

SueB

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16 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Lol... you posted it for me. Thanks. This is exactly what I was thinking of...

What might Jack have brought back with his spell?

Zombies or Revenants (not sure I know the difference)

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Lastcall

Lastcall

56 minutes ago, SueB said:

Zombies or Revenants (not sure I know the difference)

Revenants are intelligent soulless and have to be staked into their grave (though they seem to just need to be staked in great pumpkin Sam Winchester).

Zombies are mindless and just need to be shot in the head. The finale is probably zombies but I haven’t ruled out the heaven falls/dead rise thing. 

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NougatJack

NougatJack

I think "Jack in the Box" could refer to the toy. The surprise which pops out of the box is indeed the truth about supernatural beings existing. In the promo we can see Jack's angelic show in a church. I'm sure at least one of the witnesses will film the whole scene with a smartphone camera and upload it on YouTube. Then the last season will be about Sam and Dean are going public. They already teased it in "Don't go in the woods". (And Jack becomes a YouTube star, lol) 

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Lemuria

Lemuria

One thing I found interesting in the promo that could be considered a smidgen of growth for Dean (or, maybe, a smidgen of finally deciding he was tired of being yo-yo'd!) was Dean's insistence that they (ie he and Sam) both had to "sign on to this."  Presumably he's referring to whatever they may need to do to stop Jack.  

Maybe Dean is tired of having Sam go along, of not taking a stand if he disagreed--and then later accusing him of putting Sam at the kids table.  Or not arguing or challenging about not being completely open with Jack (and later in the ep, even telling the sheriff that people had to be kept in the dark about the supernatural)--only to turn around later and lecture Dean about how it was wrong.

Well, now Dean appears to want it up front and out in the open:  if both of them don't really agree that this is the course of action they have to take, Dean's not doing it.

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gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

General spoiler/spec but in the Gold panel in Chi today they were asked which recent episode they were most excited about when they read the script, they both agreed on 300 - and then Jensen added the upcoming season finale, mostly for what it sets up. Hmmm.

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Casseiopeia

Casseiopeia

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

General spoiler/spec but in the Gold panel in Chi today they were asked which recent episode they were most excited about when they read the script, they both agreed on 300 - and then Jensen added the upcoming season finale, mostly for what it sets up. Hmmm.

They said they had input in the season finale as well.  I'm thinking Jacks spell did more than bring back Mary's empty shell.

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Myrelle

Myrelle

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

General spoiler/spec but in the Gold panel in Chi today they were asked which recent episode they were most excited about when they read the script, they both agreed on 300 - and then Jensen added the upcoming season finale, mostly for what it sets up. Hmmm.

Well this is something to cling to, I guess.🤞

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