S01.E10: 10

[Indi]

No suspension of disbelief is required to find Noah's (or McNulty's) sexual exploits to be fully plausible.

 

It is for me though and it's one of the hardest things this show has asked of me. I actually said aloud, while watching his sexual exploits, "There is no way that ugly mofo could ever hook up with so many attractive women". Luckily, these are just his memories or how he likes to view himself and not necessarily real. An irresistible gift to women? Ew, nope!

 

Anyway, I don't believe in the sanctity of marriage and I've never really supported the idea that Alison and Noah should go back to their spouses. However, their last scene together as an established couple cemented my feelings that these two actors have very little chemistry and that their scenes together are the least compelling in the show. Unlikable and lacking in chemistry is never a winning combination, IMO.

 

More Detective Jeffries in S2, please!

[loki567]

Yeah, I think the producers were so happy to get Dominic West for the series that they never did a chemistry test with Ruth Wilson or questioned if he was really the right guy for the part. Guy I think who would have perfect for the role (and maybe it's because he's played it about four or five times already), would have been Patrick Wilson. 

 

And I wonder similarly about Maura Tierney. Not to say she's been bad, I think she's been excellent. But I wonder if she fits what the show-runner wants from the Helen character. Treem might have wanted more of a typical, "rich bitch," vibe from Helen and she's been surprised to what degree people have been on Helen (and Cole)'s sides. I think she obviously wanted people rooting for Noah and Allison's relationship more than they have. 

[Cirien]

I wonder if the show runners didn't get a little too enamoured with the cleverness of the unreliable narrator aspect of the show and forgot about fleshing out the story to make it more coherent?

[minimilah]

Are Alison and Noah married at the end?

i think they are married.

also... it was so weird when alison asked noah - do you believe me? why shouldn't he believe her?

Edited December 23, 2014 by minimilah

[minimilah]

I think she obviously wanted people rooting for Noah and Allison's relationship more than they have.

also, Treem wanted to portray Alison & Noah as good people in happy marriages who just kind of... accidentally found each other, not wanting to stray from their spouses. & she completely failed at it - their marriages never looked like happy marriages & people have hard time believing Alison & Noah are these good, MORAL people.

as far as Dominic West goes - i gotta be the only one who finds him incredibly attractive, LOL. he just does it for me, has that X factor. & i think Ruth Wilson who plays Alison is a gorgeous woman. they do lack chemistry... but i can overlook it.

Edited December 23, 2014 by minimilah

[Cirien]

Yeah. Barring spousal abuse most people will have some sympathy with the spouses being cheated on. You have to really be able to sell it and the show runners haven't

[stillshimpy]

as far as Dominic West goes - i gotta be the only one who finds him incredibly attractive, LOL. he just does it for me, has that X factor.

 

No, not at all . Attraction is subjective and that's just how that kind of thing works.  Now with McNulty, they built in too many truly repulsive things for me to ever think "Okay, so if you're hanging around this person....do you think 'Wow, want!' eventually?"  and that's sort of where they lose me with Noah.  He's super fit, so I do think that would be a noticeable thing.  There was a scene where he sort of came off as suave early on. 

 

All this stuff is entirely subjective, so there's no right or wrong answer, just your answer.  It's very clearly Sarah Treem's answer too.  It just doesn't happen to be my answer.  Now honestly, I think it probably doesn't help that I've never seen him playing someone I actually liked.  I am The Wire fan who was actively angry that his girlfriend  took McNulty back (sorry for lack of context there) because she deserved better.  

 

As to whether or not Noah and Alison are good people, well, I think they are demonstrably not by most standards.  He's leaving four kids, and no matter how charming I don't find them to be, that's a big deal.  Weirdly, it's just as bad that Alison wanted to indulge in this also, her entire life was apparently screwed up by having such a selfish mother and then her relationship with her child was her entire world.  

 

But I think everyone, good, bad or indifferent can be selfish and unlikable at points and that it doesn't universally define either of them that they are being so selfish in this particular aspect of life.  It just sort of takes the "good, moral people" out of the equation, but I think that's sort of the point.  

 

I actually don't think that Treem wanted me to cheer on Alison and Noah, but I do think she let the actors shape the characters too much across the board.  It can occasionally happen that a show-runner will like an actor so much, they change a part to fit their strengths.  But Treem let her casting decisions start dictating story decisions.  Wilson is so strong, so Alison becomes so strong too!   Whatever I think of the appeal of Dominic West physically, for me there's no denying that the guy has charisma, but half the point of Noah is that he was chosen, in part, for being timid and safe.  

 

I love Maura Tierney, but she's not a person I'd pick to play a blue blood and all the iciness that implies.   So I love the casting work here and everyone did such a good job, but it does sound like Treem got so giddy about attracting certain actors, she let that giddiness inform the story.  

 

The conceit of differing memories can be used as a thing to hide behind and sometimes Treem's explanations just don't work well for me.  Also, there's a slight logic flaw in the story that has been bugging me.  Noah remembers himself trying to get Helen to drop the business with pressing charges against Scotty.  However, Noah flies into a homicidal, patriarchal rage every time he sees Scotty.  Reliably, he tries to kick the guy's ass.  Not, mind you, that I blame him, but those two things don't really fit well together.  He's so chill about Scotty boinking a girl nearly half his age, he just wants to let it go in one scene, perfectly calm in the house, all the way up to seeing Scotty.  

 

It's weird. It makes Noah out to be some sort of sight-hound with a prey instinct.  

 

Anyway, I really didn't believe Alison's version where Cole takes out a gun (whips out would be the wrong way to put that, there's very little energy in that scene) and then proceeds to threaten the entire room in a very hokey, stagey manner.  

 

Just saying, sometimes the "differing memories" thing works a bit like dinner theater.  But just as an example, there's a reason I rewatch a lot of shows.  My impressions the first time out aren't often the same the next time.  Since people can't often rewatch their lives, I think it makes some sense that there are such glaring differences.  Besides, there is also the lies that people tell themselves so often, they eventually forget it was a justifying lie.  

Edited December 23, 2014 by stillshimpy

[myname2use4now]

The detective made up stories of being divorced to Noah and happily married for 25 years to Alison, and the show made a point to note that. The reality is that he's neither.

Agreed, but I'm not so sure that him saying, "Hey, babe" makes the detective gay, which was the implication I was replying to. Unless there was some other clue I missed. But also...do you think the show made it a point to show that he told them both different stories or do you think that we're still seeing the interview with the detective from each character's perspective?

 

Part of me is beginning to think the plot of this show is pretty thin and the main reason it's held our attention this long is that we're trying to solve the riddle of the timeline and comparing the two different perspectives. I'm beginning to think of this show as more of a novelty than of a well written story.

[IMCranky]

i think they are married.

also... it was so weird when alison asked noah - do you believe me? why shouldn't he believe her?

Jeffrey Reiner, the director, confirmed on Twitter after the show aired that Alison and Noah ARE married in the future. And there has to be a reason coming up that would cause her to think that he might doubt her. Edited December 23, 2014 by IMCranky

[minimilah]

So I love the casting work here and everyone did such a good job, but it does sound like Treem got so giddy about attracting certain actors, she let that giddiness inform the story.

i totally agree with this.

i watched only a couple of The Wire episodes (such a brilliant show, BTW) so I missed really seeing him as McNulty. he isn't Johnny Depp or Brad Pitt handsome but just... has something. i find him incredibly attractive.

and even tho he lacks chemistry with Ruth, they look so right with each other. their sex scenes didn't really do much for me but i rememember always thinking... - damn, they look like they really belong to each other, like they're meant to be.

i agree that both Noah and Alison are just... humans, flawed humans. and i can't really box them into GOOD or BAD but i think there were some unnecessary scenes (like Alison and the shampoo incident) where they made them look like an a**holes. i can understand alison and her feelings and helen being bitchy and a snob but still... it's like they really tried to make them both look like douchebags in some scenes.

[Constantinople]

Jeffrey Reiner, the director, confirmed on Twitter after the show aired that Alison and Noah ARE married in the future. And there has to be a reason coming up that would cause her to think that he might doubt her.

 

Perhaps the show runners, writers and directors could save us a bunch of time and just tweet us what happens in Season 2.

[blixie]

 

But I think everyone, good, bad or indifferent can be selfish and unlikable at points and that it doesn't universally define either of them that they are being so selfish in this particular aspect of life.  It just sort of takes the "good, moral people" out of the equation, but I think that's sort of the point.

 

I definitely agree, that a few shitty choices should not universally define you, but at the same time this show is ENTIRELY about these two's shitty choices. I recently realized why this show aggravates me almost as much as Gone Girl did when I was reading it: it's because we are entirely *within* the self serving perspectives of two people behaving like assholes. We are *trapped* there, save the few moments we spend with Det. Jeffries POV.

 

No no one in this story is on Amy's level (unless we listen to Sarah Treem, than it's Cole), but I'm a huge fan of unlikable and horrible people protagnonists, I love anti-heroes. I watched and love HBO's Oz, I enjoyed the shit out of Mavis in Young Adult. But first person narrative just is terrible idea if you want to tell those kinds of character stories, it utterly decimates my ability to identify with the characters which is weird thing for first person to do, but it's just so much better to have objective anchors outside those narratives to latch on to. 

 

Also just generally speaking like Cirien said, Helen and Cole may be flawed and imperfect, and in Cole's case even more problematic in terms of his maybe rape, maybe gun waving crazy, and definite history of dealing coke, but within the relationship they aren't the one's betraying, they are the one's being betrayed, and most people are naturally going to sympathize/empathize with them.

 

I don't think Wilson/West have no chemistry, but it's been portrayed in such muted low key terms (before than rushing  head long into Dallas/Dynasty style narrative in the final eps). I think Treem et al thought they were portraying a profound passion and intimacy that never really translated for me, coupled with their utter fantasies about why they are with the other person and yeah I've failed to be swept up in this idea that they are soul mates or are perfect for each other and the stuff true enduring relationships are made of.

Edited December 23, 2014 by blixie

[attica]

Also explains why people can tell you exactly where they were on 9/11, when JFK died (us old folks), etc. When something stressful or tragic happens, your memory of that whole day is likely to be sharper.

 

Scientists actually studied 9/11 memories, and their findings about so-called 'flashbulb memories' support Treem's view. Money quote:

Emotion kind of focuses you on a few details but lets you ignore other details. And if you are highly aroused by fear, that emotion helps you store things in your memory better, in a storage process called consolidation that depends on the interaction of the amygdala and hippocampus. But what we've known for a while is that emotion gives you a stronger confidence in your memory than it does necessarily in the accuracy. Usually, when a memory has highly vivid details and you're confident in those details, that means you're likely to be right. Confidence often goes hand in hand with accuracy. But when something is highly emotional, they often get separated.

 

[JenE4]

 

I don't think Wilson/West have no chemistry, but it's been portrayed in such muted low key terms (before than rushing  head long into Dallas/Dynasty style narrative in the final eps). I think Treem et al thought they were portraying a profound passion and intimacy that never really translated for me, coupled with their utter fantasies about why they are with the other person and yeah I've failed to be swept up in this idea that they are soul mates or are perfect for each other and the stuff true enduring relationships are made of.

 

I agree with you. Out of all of the crazy stuff that happens (or COULD have happened, depending on perspective) on this show, I was most shocked to see that Noah and Alison are married in the future. (Well, MOST shocked about Alison sleeping with Oscar, but this is a close second.) I've seen NOTHING between them that would have made me think everlasting love. They just come off as very broken, desperate people (Alison especially) who might find a few moments of escape with each other, but they're both constantly teetering on the brink of despair. When I think "soul mates," I think someone who brings out the best in you. I don't know. Maybe it's because they feel like they CAN be their true pathetic, broken, desperate selves with each other--Noah likes the despair in Alison, and Alison doesn't want Noah to be something that he's not. I suppose that I can see how they both have these overbearing in-laws that expect them to be something that they're not--and that has to be draining. I suppose Noah and Alison together can feel like it's just them against the world or something. I by no means think this is a HEALTHY relationship, but I suppose as far as dysfunctional relationships go, they have similar levels of dysfunction that complement each other? This isn't exactly a glowing endorsement of True Love, but there you go. {shrug}

[AAEBoiler]

I haven't seen anyone else mention this so maybe I'm just looking too much for clues ... but, why did they have the little conversation with Detective Jefferies and the car repairman about the money. The repairman asked if he could keep the money and Jeffries said that no, he had to return it in cash (emphasis mine). I don't know why, but that really stuck in my head as potentially something significant.

[stillshimpy]

AAEBoiler, I think Noah paid for the initial repairs to his car on the night of the accident in cash as an under-the-table payment.  He (meaning the tow truck driver, to be clearer) didn't know he had been obstructing an investigation, but would have to return the illicit payment, presumably as evidence.  

 

 

 

Scientists actually studied 9/11 memories, and their findings about so-called 'flashbulb memories' support Treem's view. Money quote:

 

By the way, I'm in the process of listening to Serial and the concept that you remember more from days that something huge happened is a flawed one, simply because what it really is that you think you remember more from days where something huge happened.  That's the key thing, just because a person is convinced that they remember something because it was one of those "I will never forget...." days doesn't actually then translate into accurately remembering anything.  

 

I think that's part of the deal too and then the thing with differing perspectives -- that I personally think Treem has translated into a story a little too close to literally -- is the old saw of how "we are all the heroes of our own stories".  

 

I come far closer to liking Alison than I do Noah (and I firmly don't believe in the concept of soul-mates*) , but I think that it's important that this is all Alison's memory after years of being in a rather weakened condition, that she remembers herself as stealy and strong, really facing down her own demons.   Hence the memory of the Standoff in the Kitchen that was almost comically overdone.  

 

I wonder what it means that Noah remembered himself facing down a gun because he had officially given in to one too many impulses?  

 

* I think it's better stated as a person being able to find their perfect pairing for a particular time.  We all change so much over the course of time that the person who was a perfect match for someone at twenty-two can feel like a hostile agent ten years later and an enemy by the time you hit the twenty year mark.  Doesn't mean they were any less of a perfect pairing for the  22 year old person.  

Edited December 23, 2014 by stillshimpy

[blixie]

 

Maybe it's because they feel like they CAN be their true pathetic, broken, desperate selves with each other--Noah likes the despair in Alison, and Alison doesn't want Noah to be something that he's not.

 

Oh definitely again though I think that would be the stuff that would fuel a rebound type of relationship but the second either of them dares to challenge that status quo of basically asking nothing of the person and giving nothing to the other person, I would think shit would fall apart just as much as it did in their first marriage. This is why Helen should have stuck him with the fucking kids and interrupted the "life that he wanted".  Give him the kids, give him the house, go find a room of her own to fuck off in, see how well the little Allison/Noah bubble functions then.

 

To be fair Treem did give  us the bits where we see there are already potential fractures in Noah/Allison, given that they might have killed someone, and that Noah perhaps has a reason to doubt Allison will get him out of jail. Like why would he not believe her? So we'll see next season.

 

 

That's the key thing, just because a person is convinced that they remember something because it was one of those "I will never forget...." days doesn't actually then translate into accurately remembering anything.

 

I don't think it's flawed, Serial doesn't argue that you remember accurately, it just says you are able to recall the day in question better than a random Thursday where nothing of import occurred. Like I remember what I did last Tuesday because I went to the Red Wings game, like I actually DID something eventful, I had to drive down town, I had to go get dinner, I was at the game between blank and blank. 

Edited December 23, 2014 by blixie

[Chaos Theory]

Both Noah and Alison see the scene as a defining moment in their life. Alison was talking earlier about wanting Noah to "look at her" that way again and if things went down her way and she played the hero he did. If things went down his way Noah gets to play the hero and chose between two women in white. I think it is very telling that his scene ends with him standing between Helen and Alison with them waiting for HIM to chose.

I think in truth what really happened was a little of both but probably neither. They went to grab the daughter. Cage mother groveled, Cole got angry and Noah and Helen left. No big defining moment except in their own minds. That was the moment Alison and Noah made the final choice.

Noah getting sent to the "Rubber Room" was funny. As a New Yorker I knew exactly what it was. I think this was the first time he is facing ramifications for his actions and he still feels like the wronged party. Having sex inside a school is against the rules regardless of the time and wanting to fulfill a fantasy is no excuse.

Plus I think he resents his older kids for not understanding his needs and siding with him. How dare they!

And the fight/confrontation scene between Helen and Noah. I doubt it went down like that. They have always been a case of she said, he heard.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Chaos Theory

[cardigirl]

* I think it's better stated as a person being able to find their perfect pairing for a particular time.  We all change so much over the course of time that the person who was a perfect match for someone at twenty-two can feel like a hostile agent ten years later and an enemy by the time you hit the twenty year mark.  Doesn't mean they were any less of a perfect pairing for the  22 year old person.

 

 

No one goes into marriage thinking "I'll dump this person after 20 years."  We all think it will be what we want forever and ever.  But yeah, life gets in the way and it isn't always hot and it isn't always romantic.  I get frustrated with the idea that it's okay to have an affair because one is bored, or broken.  If you're unhappy, get out.  THEN find someone else.  Don't use a new relationship as the reason to leave the current one.  

 

I am enjoying this show and I like the actors.  I will be MORE THAN PISSED if only Noah and Alison are allowed a happily ever after though.  

 

However, the painful part for the left behind spouses is that they still wanted the relationship.  They still felt it was viable. They still loved their spouses even though they had been together a long time.  

[minimilah]

I am enjoying this show and I like the actors. I will be MORE THAN PISSED if only Noah and Alison are allowed a happily ever after though.

me too.

most of the left behind spouses i know eventually got over it & found another person, fell in love all over again.... so i think helen & cole finding someone else isn't impossible or too much to ask.

and affair is NEVER okay... i agree with you on that. i think most of us can agree that no one deserves to be cheated on. but from my experience, people very rarely leave their relationships without the "help from the outside" - it's almost always leaving for another person. i think it's interesting... makes us humans look like the biggest cowards ever.

Edited December 23, 2014 by minimilah

[JenE4]

I will be MORE THAN PISSED if only Noah and Alison are allowed a happily ever after though.   

 

Noah just got hauled off to jail for the murder of Alison's former BIL. I don't think they're getting a "happily ever after" here, either! ;-)

[Direwolf]

Noah just got hauled off to jail for the murder of Alison's former BIL. I don't think they're getting a "happily ever after" here, either! ;-)

I don't know that it would necessarily be for a murder charge. I am not sure Jefferies has enough evidence for that. He can at least be brought in for obstruction for bribing the tow truck driver.

[Jack Terrier]

Oh definitely again though I think that would be the stuff that would fuel a rebound type of relationship but the second either of them dares to challenge that status quo of basically asking nothing of the person and giving nothing to the other person, I would think shit would fall apart just as much as it did in their first marriage. This is why Helen should have stuck him with the fucking kids and interrupted the "life that he wanted".  Give him the kids, give him the house, go find a room of her own to fuck off in, see how well the little Allison/Noah bubble functions then.

. 

 

Now THAT is the story I want told in Season 2!  LOL   Why does Noah/Alison get to start over with none of the 'burdens' of his former life? 

He was an active participant in making those 4 kids (and now possible 2(?) more).  Stick it to him Helen!

[GeminiDancer]

Agreed, but I'm not so sure that him saying, "Hey, babe" makes the detective gay, which was the implication I was replying to. Unless there was some other clue I missed. But also...do you think the show made it a point to show that he told them both different stories or do you think that we're still seeing the interview with the detective from each character's perspective?

 

Part of me is beginning to think the plot of this show is pretty thin and the main reason it's held our attention this long is that we're trying to solve the riddle of the timeline and comparing the two different perspectives. I'm beginning to think of this show as more of a novelty than of a well written story.

 

The show definitely made it a point to show that he told different stories as a way to appeal and identify with both Noah and Alison. At this point, anything with the detective is the third, objective, and more reliable narrator. The interviews with the detective have long ended at this point.

[stillshimpy]

Heh, while I can agree with the spirit of "Make him take the kids and see how much he digs living his authentic and best life then!"  because for real, if you're so unhappy in a marriage that you want it to end, End the motherfucking thing and then move the hell on.  It's an important order and they are both mature enough to know that.  Instead, they used another person as their escape pod.  

 

But having said that, it actually wouldn't be better for Helen to bail on her own responsibilities to those kids either.  They are primarily charmless little urchins, but they also aren't pawns in a revenge plot.  They are supposed to be developing people who can be damaged easily and irreparably.  Helen telling Whiteny she thought Noah was a sociopath made me laugh at the fictional depiction, but in real-life was sort of below the belt.  So is leaving your family to embark on a sexual journey that actually ends your allegedly treasured career.  

 

 

 

No one goes into marriage thinking "I'll dump this person after 20 years."  We all think it will be what we want forever and ever.

 

I've been to three hand-fastings (Wiccan and Pagan weddings) where the vows were "Until death or the end of love do we part" so some people sort of do :-)  But I take your point.  Pre-nuptial agreements existing also suggests that people are aware "this might not work out" in other ways too.  I think only a 22-year-old (or thereabouts) can really fully invest in the "nothing could ever change us so much that we wouldn't want to be together" completely, but most people hope for the forever and ever outcome despite the divorce rate.  

Edited December 23, 2014 by stillshimpy

[cardigirl]

There was a show on FYI this summer, totally REALITY TV, ha ha, but it was called Married at First Sight, and was about 'arranged marriages' in that people told the experts what they wanted in a partner and then they were matched up with someone the experts thought would give them the best hope of a good match.

It was interesting, because they never met each other until their wedding.  So basing a marriage on other things other than sex and attraction (initially). Again, it was a REALITY show so not the best forum for this discussion, but the idea that marriage is for romantic love only is a rather modern one. 

 

I like StillShimpy's note that both parents abandoning the children in an effort to have a NEW unburdened life is not a great choice.  (happens waaay too often though.)

 

Helen recognizes that holding the home together is probably best for the kids (these children have been shown as imperfect, and I think having a strong mom is their best hope).    The damage that a divorce does to a kid is real.  Many learn to rise above and cope with it but there is damage that would not be there if the divorce did not happen.  

[Jack Terrier]

Heh, while I can agree with the spirit of "Make him take the kids and see how much he digs living his authentic and best life then!"  because for real, if you're so unhappy in a marriage that you want it to end, End the motherfucking thing and then move the hell on.  It's an important order and they are both mature enough to know that.  Instead, they used another person as their escape pod.  

 

But having said that, it actually wouldn't be better for Helen to bail on her own responsibilities to those kids either.  They are primarily charmless little urchins, but they also aren't pawns in a revenge plot.  They are supposed to be developing people who can be damaged easily and irreparably.  Helen telling Whiteny she thought Noah was a sociopath made me laugh at the fictional depiction, but in real-life was sort of below the belt.  So is leaving your family to embark on a sexual journey that actually ends your allegedly treasured career.  

 

 

 

 

.  

 

Of course in real life Helen wouldn't bail on the kids just to stick it to Noah/Alison but it would be nice to see a different take on "man leaves woman and family for new life" and the wife basically gives the happy new couple a big "F" you to the both of them.  A girl can dream!  :)

[walnutqueen]

Heh, while I can agree with the spirit of "Make him take the kids and see how much he digs living his authentic and best life then!"  because for real, if you're so unhappy in a marriage that you want it to end, End the motherfucking thing and then move the hell on.  It's an important order and they are both mature enough to know that.  Instead, they used another person as their escape pod.  

 

But having said that, it actually wouldn't be better for Helen to bail on her own responsibilities to those kids either.  They are primarily charmless little urchins, but they also aren't pawns in a revenge plot.  They are supposed to be developing people who can be damaged easily and irreparably.  Helen telling Whiteny she thought Noah was a sociopath made me laugh at the fictional depiction, but in real-life was sort of below the belt.  So is leaving your family to embark on a sexual journey that actually ends your allegedly treasured career.  

 

 

 

 

I've been to three hand-fastings (Wiccan and Pagan weddings) where the vows were "Until death or the end of love do we part" so some people sort of do :-)  But I take your point.  Pre-nuptial agreements existing also suggests that people are aware "this might not work out" in other ways too.  I think only a 22-year-old (or thereabouts) can really fully invest in the "nothing could ever change us so much that we wouldn't want to be together" completely, but most people hope for the forever and ever outcome despite the divorce rate.  

 

I married young and changed my reluctant churchy vows from "As long as we both shall live" to "As long as we both shall love".   Because I figured it probably wouldn't last.   I was right.  :-)

[Higgs]

Yeah, I think the producers were so happy to get Dominic West for the series that they never did a chemistry test with Ruth Wilson or questioned if he was really the right guy for the part. 

Treem said West was cast early on, Wilson at the very last minute, so there was no time to do a chemistry test. I don't root for or against anyone on this show. I watch it the way a cosmologist studies astronomical data, to understand the the effects of forces on matter, whether light or dark. Wilson and West made me believe their characters loved each other, except in the final scene before Jeffries showed up, which I thought was somehow off. After Ep.9, I wanted its final scene to have been the last of the season. I still do.

[Empress1]

Helen telling Whiteny she thought Noah was a sociopath made me laugh at the fictional depiction, but in real-life was sort of below the belt.

I was really bothered by this. To me, you don't bring your kids into grown folks' business; making Whitney her confidante was inappropriate on Helen's part, IMO. And I think most family therapists are aligned in saying you don't trash a kid's parent to the kid; if the parent is so bad, the kid will figure it out. Noah did a shitty thing, but maligning him to Whitney isn't cool. Save that for your friends, Helen.

Also if anyone is a sociopath, it's Whitney. Or the elder son.

[scrb]

Wait until Helen finds out that Bruce helped Noah realize he wanted to be with Alison.

[blixie]

 

But having said that, it actually wouldn't be better for Helen to bail on her own responsibilities to those kids either.

 

She wouldn't be any more than he is by living in his little apartment I see no reason to assume she has to be the primary care giver just cause he decided to fuck someone else.

[Janc]

Jeffrey Reiner, the director, confirmed on Twitter after the show aired that Alison and Noah ARE married in the future. And there has to be a reason coming up that would cause her to think that he might doubt her.

 

To add to this, Sarah Treem tweeted on Sunday night:  "Originally Noah had the last line. Alison says "I'll get you out, I promise."  And he was going to say "If anyone can, it's you.""  Hmmmm.

[blixie]

And Sarah Treem just takes away the only thing I liked about the scene. NO I wasn't suggesting they weren't cosmically united in every way!

[Empress1]

Re: Noah's tiny studio, I assume he's actually living on his income now and that's all he can afford. (With child support for four on a teacher's salary, he can probably barely afford that.) It's pretty realistic - TV and movies rarely accurately depict how little space most New Yorkers live in.

[minimilah]

To add to this, Sarah Treem tweeted on Sunday night: "Originally Noah had the last line. Alison says "I'll get you out, I promise." And he was going to say "If anyone can, it's you."" Hmmmm.

hmmmmmmm... so alison either knows something or knows who did it or she did it. xD. i wonder what made them change it.

Edited December 23, 2014 by minimilah

[RococoChanel]

Yeah, I think the producers were so happy to get Dominic West for the series that they never did a chemistry test with Ruth Wilson or questioned if he was really the right guy for the part. Guy I think who would have perfect for the role (and maybe it's because he's played it about four or five times already), would have been Patrick Wilson. 

 

And I wonder similarly about Maura Tierney. Not to say she's been bad, I think she's been excellent. But I wonder if she fits what the show-runner wants from the Helen character. Treem might have wanted more of a typical, "rich bitch," vibe from Helen and she's been surprised to what degree people have been on Helen (and Cole)'s sides. I think she obviously wanted people rooting for Noah and Allison's relationship more than they have. 

 

Omg, Patrick Wilson would have knocked this OUT OF THE PARK. 

[Pallas]

Just checking in, from work, on a small detail -- 

 

The repairman asked if he could keep the money and Jeffries said that no, he had to return it in cash (emphasis mine). I don't know why, but that really stuck in my head as potentially something significant. -- AAEBoiler

 

I believe the repairman was referring to the $20K Noah had just wire-transferred into his account.  Jeffries seemed to be implying that he needs to have the bribe relinquished to the authorities in the same form in which it was received: cash.  

 

But you may be onto something big. The bribe payment could disappear. Why should Jeffries be immune from the yen to better himself through the self-imposed misfortunes of the mass market elite?  As far the the case goes, all he would ultimately have to sacrifice is the testimony of the mechanic to the bribe, not to the work he performed on Noah/Alison's car.  

[HumblePi]

Wait...what? I missed that.

A phone call came for the detective, his secretary says "Steve is on the phone" He answers the call saying "Hey Babe".  So for whatever importance that has to anything, I don't know. Is there any significance to the fact that the detective may have a happy marriage, twin boys or twin girls, divorced or even gay?  I don't see how there could be anything significant to his life that pertains to this story.

 

I thought that after watching all 10 episodes that I would have sided with one or the other in this series and at least feel some sort of connection, sympathy or empathy with someone, and I haven't. I don't like Helen and her "I hate you!" then seconds later "I don't want a divorce". What's her deal? Noah and Alison are selfish users, both of them. Whitney is just a typical spoiled girl that's used to getting her own way and doing what she feels like doing. Maybe the youngest child, the little choking girl has a chance in that family, I doubt it. The rest of the kids have already been tarnished by a severely dysfunctional family. Sigh....first world problems.

[Muffyn]

Now THAT is the story I want told in Season 2!  LOL   Why does Noah/Alison get to start over with none of the 'burdens' of his former life? 

He was an active participant in making those 4 kids (and now possible 2(?) more).  Stick it to him Helen!

I would like Noah to get a vasectomy.  Can we make that part of the show?  Then he'll stop breeding, regardless of spouse.  Given the brilliant job he seems to have done with the first batch, the world might be better off with fewer Solloways around.  

 

It does seem that while the actors are all good they are each playing their parts slightly differently than what was originally imagined by the show runners.  Cole and Helen are more sympathetic.  Noah and Alison come off as more self-serving.  At least Alison does show some real pain and reasons for leaving her marriage.  Yes couples can survive the loss of a child, but not if they are each blaming the other for that loss.  The scenes with Alison and Cole have been some of the best - first the one on the sidewalk and then this week's reveal of how they each blame the other for the loss of Gabrielle.  Noah just comes off like a douchebag to me.  I can understand he is bored and unhappy in his marriage.  I just cannot stand the whole oh poor me I've been forced to live a life I can't afford because your parents are wealthy.  It feels dishonest.  While it may hurt his ego, he has obviously benefited from their largess.  I guess it's just a case of rich people's problems that I can't get behind.  

 

ETA:  Or, what HumblePi said.  

Edited December 23, 2014 by Muffyn

[Chaos Theory]

A phone call came for the detective, his secretary says "Steve is on the phone" He answers the call saying "Hey Babe". So for whatever importance that has to anything, I don't know. Is there any significance to the fact that the detective may have a happy marriage, twin boys or twin girls, divorced or even gay? I don't see how there could be anything significant to his life that pertains to this story.

.

The story has always been about the perception of reality. What is truth? Who is telling the truth? Both? Neither? I think the moment was meant to show how flawed both stories are. He told them both different stories....neuther of them were true. We are being told two stories.....

[Bcharmer]

In their last conversation before the detective shows up to arrest Noah, Alison and Noah were talking about how busy they'd be the next day. Then Alison asks, "Can you be here when Julianne leaves?"  Is Julianne their daughter? If so, and if their daughter is (presumably) very young, why would she be "leaving"? I thought that was a strange question, or at least a strange way to word it. 

 

Also, the detective only says Noah is under arrest. He doesn't say what for. It would be very interesting to find out that the detective has been suspecting someone else for the murder all along, and is arresting Noah for something else, whether it's obstruction, bribery, or whatever. 

[minimilah]

there is theory going around that scotty isn't whitney's baby father - but it's max. scotty did say he was only whitney's friend at the clinic? what do y'all think?

also, when she said "when julianne leaves" maybe she meant, when she leaves for daycare or something?

[SoWindsor]

Did anyone detect something ominous with Allison's look at the end? To me it looked like she was out to get Noah or soMething. Not sure if that was intentional or not but that was my first instinct on the look Ruth Wilson gave.

[GeminiDancer]

I doubt Max is the one who got Whitney pregnant mostly because of his reaction when Noah told him about the pregnancy. The show has never made any inclination that Max had any interest in Whitney.

[minimilah]

No one has mentioned this yet, but I think Allison has two children now and only one of them is Noah's. When she was being interrogated by the detective, she mentioned having to pick up "her son." I now assume she was talking about picking up a son from his biological father (either Cole or Oscar). She/Noah really do deserve Oscar in their lives for the next 18 years. After having a son, I presume she and Noah went ahead to have one of their own - a daughter.

i think she just said - pick up my KID. so i think there's only one kid, that kid being noah's. and i think that's julianne.

but i cannot tell for sure... i THINK there's only one kid in question.

Edited December 23, 2014 by minimilah

[DWinnifred]

Speaking of the detective, did anyone else think that he could be on the take?  I'm referring to when he brought the snitch in with the recording from his and Noah's conversation about the 10 no 20 grand and he asked if he could keep it.  The detective said no you can't, you have to turn it over in CASH.  CASH? Really, how easy is that to pocket?

[Bcharmer]

also, when she said "when julianne leaves" maybe she meant, when she leaves for daycare or something?

 

Except that the reason Noah gave for not being there was because he would be having dinner with an actor. That indicates night. A child would not be going to daycare at dinnertime. Also, a child would not be "leaving"... someone would be taking them to daycare. It's the word "leaves" that is strange to me. Maybe it's just me.

[Pallas]

There is theory going around that scotty isn't whitney's baby father - but it's max.

 

There are a lot of people angry at well-to-do middle-aged white men, aren't there?  

 

I don't think Max fucked Helen's 16-year-old daughter, or even Noah's. I see Max as lost but harmless, immature yet instructive: in New York romance terms of a different day, the Tony Roberts and not the Woody Allen character.  He may even be named after him: the Roberts "Max," that is.  

[minimilah]

Except that the reason Noah gave for not being there was because he would be having dinner with an actor. That indicates night. A child would not be going to daycare at dinnertime. Also, a child would not be "leaving"... someone would be taking them to daycare. It's the word "leaves" that is strange to me. Maybe it's just me.

you're right, i totally forgot about noah having dinner. hm.... maybe julianne is their babysitter? :/ "when julianne leaves" does sound weird.

Edited December 23, 2014 by minimilah