S04.E12: Heroes And Villains

[Geeni]

Plot contrivance. The writers had to have Emma find her so they could throw the SQ shippers a bone somehow.

 

For real, though, she probably wanted to drown herself in alcohol.

[FabulousTater]

It's a simple fact that unless some other tie exists, no one is related to their boyfriend's family.

This. People confuse Henry's relations with Emma's. Henry is related to the Stiltskins, Emma is not. They are Henry's "family". He has a relation to that clan and to his sperm donor, but Emma has no such relation with any of those people. Douchefire was Emma's ex-boyfriend and only that (hell, he'd been her "ex" for 11-12 years!) That. Is. All. No one is related to their boyfriend let alone their ex-boyfriend, whether there's a child or not. 

Edited February 2, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Camera One]

On a topic related to this episode, why was Regina hanging out at Granny's being all mopey instead of locked up in her mansion like she did before? No one in town likes her, she wasn't there to drink and she didn't want Emma's or anyone else's company, so what the hell was she doing there?

 

Because deep inside, she yearns for human contact especially from her friend Emma.  

[KAOS Agent]

Ah, that must be it. Regina instinctively knew that Emma would abandon her incredibly hot boyfriend and ignore any and all trauma she and he might have from his near death experience to come and comfort her BFF in her time of need. 

[SilverShadow]

This. People confuse Henry's relations with Emma's. Henry is related to the Stiltskins, Emma is not. They are Henry's "family". He has a relation to that clan and to his sperm donor, but Emma has no such relation with any of those people. Douchefire was Emma's ex-boyfriend and only that (hell, he'd been her "ex" for 11-12 years!) That. Is. All. No one is related to their boyfriend let alone their ex-boyfriend, whether there's a child or not. 

 

I don't know if I completely agree with this. Legally and logically sure, but emotions aren't logical. I can totally see Emma deciding that Henry's family is her family. And IIRC there was a deleted scene from when Rumple was poisoned in Season 2 where she specifically claimed Gold as such.  And lets face it, for all of Emma's "walls" she's kind of a soft touch when it comes to the idea of family.

 

Also, I am not a Swanfire shipper, so this isn't about me wanting to validate that relationship, but whether I like it or not, it was important to Emma, because of Henry.

[YaddaYadda]

It might have been important to Emma at one point, but after the shit Rumple pulled in 4A, I think she'll die before she lets Henry anywhere near Rumple again.

[Curio]

It might have been important to Emma at one point, but after the shit Rumple pulled in 4A, I think she'll die before she lets Henry anywhere near Rumple again.

 

I doubt it. If Regina was able to get away with accidentally poisoning Henry in Season 1 and nearly destroying all of Storybrooke in Season 2 and can still be around him all the time, then Rumple will be forgiven in 2 seconds. Because "family."

[kingshearte]

ETA: I just realized that the OP could've meant that sarcastically.

I was indeed speaking with a certain degree of irony — tongue-in-cheekishness, really. However, while I do agree generally that one's ex's family (particularly an ex to whom one was never married) are not technically one's own family, I think things do change a bit when there are kids involved. It's fine to say that Emma is not related to Rumple because they share no blood, and technically, that's true, but I also think that drawing such sharp lines between a mother's relations and her son's relations and declaring the latter absolutely not the mother's family is a bit dodgy. I think it's kind of a hybrid of one's "chosen family" (the friends with whom we share absolutely no blood relation, but we consider family anyway in terms of closeness, loyalty, value in our lives, etc.) and "blood family" (the ones we're related to whether we want to be or not). Whether or not someone in those circumstances is considered family is largely a matter of individual preference.

 

In this case, I would have to imagine that Emma sorta kinda considers Rumple family, but most likely does not consider Belle any sort of relevant relation at all.

[RadioGirl27]

In this case, I would have to imagine that Emma sorta kinda considers Rumple family, but most likely does not consider Belle any sort of relevant relation at all.

I'm not sure about this. When Elsa asked Emma if someone in her family had magic she said no, so she doesn't consider Rumple (or Regina) her family. They are Henry's family but not hers. But, knowing this writers, next season she would consider him her family as an excuse to forgive him for trying to kill her and Hook, and kidnap Henry.

[yeswedo]

Hey folks, if you're talking about more than this episode please take it to another thread - for example All Seasons or Relationships.

 

Thanks

[turbogirlnyc]

I binged watched seasons 1, 2 & 3 on Netfix recently and signed up for Hulu Plus to watch season 4. I was enthralled with the series before watching this episode. Seriously? What a joke! I won't waste my time watching 4B.

I'll 2nd, 3rd and 4th all above posts regarding the complete lack of emotional payoff. I've never been so disappointed in a television show. Ever.

Thanks for allowing me to vent!

[Curio]

I binged watched seasons 1, 2 & 3 on Netfix recently and signed up for Hulu Plus to watch season 4. I was enthralled with the series before watching this episode. Seriously? What a joke! I won't waste my time watching 4B.

I'll 2nd, 3rd and 4th all above posts regarding the complete lack of emotional payoff. I've never been so disappointed in a television show. Ever.

Thanks for allowing me to vent!

 

Oh, vent away! This whole forum has basically turned into one giant vent-therapy session. My immediate reaction after watching this episode was to also give up on watching 4B, but after weeks of venting here (and multiple essay-length tirades bashing the writing) I'm strangely at a better place now. I still know 90% of 4B will be utter crap and 10% I'll actually enjoy, but it's not enough for me to quit yet. I don't know what's wrong with me.

[Souris]

You are among fellow sufferers of disappointment, turbogirlnyc. This ep really was the pinnacle (nadir?) of a disappointing lack of payoff. I plan on copious usage of my DVR's fast-forward button during 4B. I suspect I'll be able to get through an episode in about five minutes, since that will probably be all that will be of interest to me.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Souris

[FurryFury]

3B, overall, wasn't any better (the same lack of payoff), but it least it closed with a fun adventure in Enchanted Forest (something that the show can do well, mostly). This time, no such luck, plus oodles of Outlaw Queen which is really the worst continuing storyline the show has even done, completely trumping Tamara and Owen or Belle's amnesia.

[HoodlumSheep]

Having made peace with episode (it is what it is), I can't help but wonder if this episode would have worked better as a non-finale and just a regular episode. Like, maybe it wouldn't have caused as much rage if the story just continued on (like if 4b immediately followed). There still would have been rage by all means, but at least there would have been less of it because winter-finale hopes wouldn't have been crushed.

[Curio]

I can't help but wonder if this episode would have worked better as a non-finale and just a regular episode. Like, maybe it wouldn't have caused as much rage if the story just continued on (like if 4b immediately followed).

 

I think that's a big part of it. Knowing this was the finale and jumping ahead 6 weeks at the end just crushed me on the inside because I knew there would be no chance for getting any proper emotional fallout. I mean, it would be really weird for 4B to open up with Hook and Emma having a deep conversation like, "Hey, remember 6 weeks ago when you had your heart ripped out and I didn't know anything about it until the last second because I refused to look into your odd behavior and we've conveniently avoided this topic for over a month? Oh, and remember your hand you decided to randomly bring back for our date? Why did you do that? Are you insecure about your hook? And one more thing, you mentioned briefly that you knew about this magical hat that could suck me in but failed to tell me about it. So, yeah. Let's talk about all of that 6 weeks after it happened." And the sad thing is the writers probably still don't understand why we wanted to see that emotional fallout in the first place. To them, what we were shown in this episode was an adequate enough resolution.

[Joanh23]

My expectations were sky high for this episode before it aired - I was expecting another Going Home and sadly it wasn't anywhere near the quality of that episode!  That said because I was so disappointed in this episode, my expectations for 4B have lowered and also the hiatus has given me time to get over my disappointment.  And for all the lack of payoff in this episode, we still got lots of great CaptainSwan moments in 4A so that does give me hope for 4B.  

[Shanna Marie]

Knowing this was the finale and jumping ahead 6 weeks at the end just crushed me on the inside because I knew there would be no chance for getting any proper emotional fallout.

I think the time jump was just the final straw. It might have been somewhat bearable if we could have maintained the illusion that the next episode, whenever it came -- a week later or months later -- would pick up where we left off, so there was still the slightest chance that Emma would come back to check on Hook and we'd see her learning what had happened with him and see the immediate aftermath of her reaction -- would she be clingy and not let him out of her sight for fear of losing him, or would she put up the walls because she couldn't bear the thought of losing him? Or we'd get to see Belle pulling herself together and trying to carry on, with whatever help she might have had from her friends. Etc. But jump ahead six weeks, and that means it all really should have been dealt with by now, so we won't see any of it.

 

But this episode still wouldn't have been satisfying even without the jump because it was all based on a potentially dire thing happening that no one knew was happening and that we knew would never happen, so there was absolutely zero dramatic tension. The only dramatic tension to get from something the audience knows won't happen is from the way the characters react to it, and we didn't see the characters react to it. Plus, it didn't pay of what was set up and relied on things that weren't set up for resolution.

 

So, yeah, even if there had been another new episode the following week that picked up five minutes later, I suspect I still would have been angry and dissatisfied.

[FabulousTater]

I still know 90% of 4B will be utter crap and 10% I'll actually enjoy, but it's not enough for me to quit yet. I don't know what's wrong with me.

It's called addiction. All of our posts on here really should include a tagline that reads "My name is <insert_user_name> and I am an addict." ;-) 

Edited February 4, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Camera One]

I didn't have any positive expectations for this episode at all.  The only good things about 4A were the Frozen/Snow Queen/Emma/Elsa stuff.  All that was pretty much resolved in the pentultimate episode "Shattered Sight".  The only things left to resolve was Regina and Rumple's storylines, and both of those were horribly written for the entirety of 4A, so it was no surprise that their continuation would be just as insipid and unengaging.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Camera One

[The Cake is a Pie]

I am holding out hope that the "six weeks later" from the last ep was only a cliffhanger for the rest of the season and the next ep will pick up where they left off and show us what happened during that six weeks' time.

I hope, but that hope is not high.

[jhlipton]

The jump also failed because Belle threw Rumple out into the Real World without money, magic or artifacts, yet 6 months later, he may be traveling by bus, but he doesn't look like he's been suffering at all.  So once again, they undercut dramatic tension.

[Camera One]

yet 6 months later, he may be traveling by bus, but he doesn't look like he's been suffering at all.  So once again, they undercut dramatic tension.

 

6 months would at least be a tad more palatable than the 6 weeks.

[jhlipton]

6 months would at least be a tad more palatable than the 6 weeks.

 

But how did he get by -- for 6 weeks or 6 months or 6 years?  That journey might have been interesting, but no, we can't have that!  Also, did he miss Belle at all during that time period?  Did he hate her?  I don't recall whether he said anything at all about her to Ursula.  It's just "Oh well, on to the next scheme..." 

[YaddaYadda]

I'm assuming his happy ending includes Belle in some form.  And there are some similarities between Belle and Milah (in spirit that is, big dreams and so on).  I doubt he'll be crushing Belle's heart though.

[Mari]

I'm assuming his happy ending includes Belle in some form.

It probably will.

Given that it's this show and these writers (we should consider acronyming that), and Belle very emphatically ejected him from her life, what do you suppose the odds are that it will be handled in a non creepy, completely consensual way? Because these are the people that can't figure out why Regina/Graham was not okay.

[KingOfHearts]

Rewatched this episode...

 

There were a few WTH moments that could make sense if you tilted your head and squinted your eyes. And by "tilting", I mean a full ninety-degree angle. For example, it seemed like both Anna and Belle had to have had suspicions prior about Rumple for their revelations to make any sense. Why would Anna find it important to learn about a guy who "seems super helpful" right before she stepped into the portal? Why would Belle jump to the conclusion that the gauntlet meant Rumple had been lying to her? There were some empty spaces that could only be filled with headcanon.

 

It would have been better if we didn't see the Queens of Darkness in the flashbacks. It would have been more intriguing to randomly see Ursula at the end in the aquarium, with Rumple making that "two more stops" comment. (Or rewording it and saying, "we have two more people to pick up") Then we could be guessing who else he intended to get or how Ursula relates to anything.

 

The flashbacks were a bland repeat of Skin Deep. They did a poor job of introducing the evil trio. Too upfront, not enough gravitas or mystery.

Edited February 22, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Yeah, I agree.  Though I suppose they wanted to reveal the 3 Queens of Darkness, so they could use that as promotion for 4B.  Though now that I think about it, they had no problem promoting that Wicked Was Coming! for 3B without having Zelena in the 3A finale.  

 

If anything, seeing the 3 Lame'os of Darkness in this finale made me LESS excited to see them in 4B.  Maleficent is supposed to be such a menacing presence, but she wasn't in that bad flashback.  As I've said before, lumping her with the other two and saying they were Rumple's former students just made them seem pathetic.  Ursula was completely bland.  The only one who left an impression was Cruella, maybe because she was the most ostentatious.  

[KingOfHearts]

 

The only one who left an impression was Cruella, maybe because she was the most ostentatious.

She was definitely given the best lines and costume. Maleficent didn't seem evil or menacing at all, I agree. It felt like the actress was phoning it in. The darker outfit actually made her look more cartoony than her S1 costume, oddly enough.

 

 

saying they were Rumple's former students just made them seem pathetic.

They all seem like Regina/Cora/Zelena/Ingrid copies. Powerful, fashionable sorceresses who bring occasional snark. No new ideas with these writers. Can't we get something more unique like Pan?

Edited February 22, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

She was definitely given the best lines and costume. Maleficent didn't seem evil or menacing at all, I agree. It felt like the actress was phoning it in. The darker outfit actually made her look more cartoony than her S1 costume, oddly enough.

As a lover of the color pink, I feel very offended that the costumers thought that now she is a huge big bad, she had to wear black and not pink. That's sooo lame and expected. Lovers of the color pink CAN be evil. Look at Dolores Umbridge.

[YaddaYadda]

There were a few WTH moments that could make sense if you tilted your head and squinted your eyes. And by "tilting", I mean a full ninety-degree angle. For example, it seemed like both Anna and Belle had to have had suspicions prior about Rumple for their revelations to make any sense. Why would Anna find it important to learn about a guy who "seems super helpful" right before she stepped into the portal? Why would Belle jump to the conclusion that the gauntlet meant Rumple had been lying to her?

 

410 and 411 should have been when they addressed a whole bunch of things that were mentioned in the previous episodes.  But with this show, we just never know when they will circling back to certain things.  But since they will not be bringing back the Frozen gang back or the chances are slim to none, then all these set ups that they had with Anna should have been resolved.

 

I'm sorry, but I really, really disliked Anna.  And she had a finger in every fucking pie.  She knew Belle, she even told her about the evil wizard that Belle later researched to find out what his name, she knew Rumple and what he intended to do with the hat.  Outside of Hook, she was the only other person who knew about that.  Weeks later, I still don't understand how this girl was not involved in helping resolve the Rumple issue.  

 

But Ingrid who was basically Elsa and Emma's problem because of what she wanted from them, that one she fixed.  And even Ingrid who knew what he needed to cut himself loose from the dagger said nothing when she was the one to tell him he needed the heart of a person who knew him pre-Dark One.  

 

They could have tied all of this with a pretty little bow, but instead, they decided to do the whole Shattered Sight thing where David's worst insult was calling someone an Ice Man.  God, I really love David especially when he is with Emma, but it just goes to show just how boring the character really is when the writers can't come up with someone far more serious than that.  Yes, I remember the Dr. Whale dig.

[KingOfHearts]

At the very least they should have done the Frozen farewell early in the episode instead of giving them four whole scenes. The Wishing Star would have been a less contrived way than that portal out of nowhere. Have one scene where the use it, then have the epilogue later to give the impression more time had past.

[Camera One]

The most hilarious thing about Anna saying Rumple was a very very bad man was that she didn't give a second thought to immediately walking through that portal, which was "discovered" by Rumple himself!  Wouldn't at least one of those in the goodbye crowd have gone, "Uh... wait a minute, where exactly does that door lead?"  I suppose Anna knew that Rumple couldn't hurt her or Elsa (though who knows why that "promise" still needs to be kept now after-the-fact).  You'd think she would be a little worried what could have happened to Kristoff, who wasn't protected by that promise.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Camera One

[Zuleikha]

I'm just not sure what I think about this episode. The flashback was stupid; the introduction of Ursula/Cruella/Maleficent was stupid; and I don't understand at all how Marian's curse could come back if Ingrid's death defrosted her in the first place. You all know that I HATE Rumpbelle with a fiery passion and hate the sleazy a-hole Robin got turned into this season.

 

But... when Belle forced Rumple over the town line, I was moved. And when Robin kissed Regina and then crossed the town line, I was moved. 

 

What can I say? Give me some good face acting, and I forgive all. It's really the strength of those moments that keep bringing me back. 

 

I wish Belle's arc hadn't been shafted this season because even though I don't like Belle, the gap between mirror-Belle revealing Belle was suspicious of Rumple and the legitimacy of the dagger and final pay off of Belle breaking things off was too long. There just needed to be a few call backs to let me know Belle's tearful apology wasn't the end of the story. Also, one of these days, I'd like her to remember how eagerly Rumple started torturing people when she was Lacey. 

 

I also interpreted Anna's comment about Rumple to be what let Emma realize Rumple faked the dagger with Belle. I think it was unbearably lame that she and Snow then got frozen without accomplishing anything. I also don't understand how Belle got behind Rumple. But I did like the re-hearting scene (and A&E are right about me as a CaptainSwan fan: I would have preferred a longer kissing scene to more conversation. Hook almost freaking DIED and Emma's not trying to hide that she loves him. I don't need or want a full 40 minutes, but yes, I wanted a little more of the "you're still alive" relief kissing!)

[Shanna Marie]

Hook almost freaking DIED and Emma's not trying to hide that she loves him. I don't need or want a full 40 minutes, but yes, I wanted a little more of the "you're still alive" relief kissing!

My problem with that scene wasn't so much the kissing vs. talking thing, it was that he was the one doing the "I'm still alive!" relief kissing. There was hardly any sense from Emma that she'd nearly lost him or that had affected her in any way. She wasn't shying away from his passionate lunge at her, until she broke it off to go drink with Regina, but I really got no sense of "Oh God, I nearly lost you!" from her. She was frozen as soon as she saw him in the tower, so we didn't get to see her react to that. We didn't get to see the immediate aftermath in the tower, so there was no reaction from her, no checking to be sure he was okay, no wondering what happened to him. Even in the re-hearting scene she was pretty matter-of-fact, not like this was the aftermath of something major that was her actual fear, articulated at the beginning of the season, being played out. He had a line reassuring her that he was a survivor, but she hadn't done anything before that line to show that anything had even bothered her. That was what was unsatisfying.

 

Plus, I still don't get why they waited until they got to Granny's to put his heart back, much later in the evening. Were they walking around with his heart all that time? Wouldn't they have wanted to do that ASAP, while they were still in the tower?

[Zuleikha]

She wasn't shying away from his passionate lunge at her, until she broke it off to go drink with Regina, but I really got no sense of "Oh God, I nearly lost you!" from her.

 

That seems like a Jennifer Morrison acting issue more than a writing/editing issue.

 

Plus, I still don't get why they waited until they got to Granny's to put his heart back, much later in the evening. Were they walking around with his heart all that time? Wouldn't they have wanted to do that ASAP, while they were still in the tower?

That, on the other hand, is definitely a writing issue! I've been missing things like that since I've been binge watching. I'm a little nervous about how much my enjoyment of this season may drop now that I'm basically caught up and will have a week in between to notice plot holes.

 

yet 6 [weeks] later, he may be traveling by bus, but he doesn't look like he's been suffering at all.  So once again, they undercut dramatic tension.

 

Yes, that bothered me, too. One of the most powerful moments of Emma/Rumple's trip to find Neal was when Rumple was scared going through the airport. He is a smart man with or without magic, but he doesn't know our world beyond the fairly stale info dump. He was so terrified of being in it without magic that he engineered the convoluted curse so that he could have Baelfire AND magic even though there were far easier options if he was content with just Baelfire. I feel we deserved to see him scared and suffering for at least a little bit. It's what he deserves, what would happen initially, and an opportunity for meaningful character growth, or at least letting us see an interesting, different side of Rumple.

[Camera One]

I'm a little nervous about how much my enjoyment of this season may drop now that I'm basically caught up and will have a week in between to notice plot holes.

 

Instead, you'll have a week to make fun of plot holes with us.

[FabulousTater]

My problem with that scene wasn't so much the kissing vs. talking thing, it was that he was the one doing the "I'm still alive!" relief kissing. There was hardly any sense from Emma that she'd nearly lost him or that had affected her in any way. She wasn't shying away from his passionate lunge at her, until she broke it off to go drink with Regina,

Not to beat a dead horse anymore, but I want to point out (yes, again) that we don’t know what happened between the scenes of Emma and Hook kissing in the hallway and then Emma and Regina having drinks. That it was Emma that left Hook is speculation based on nothing. We have ZERO information about what led up to Emma appearing at Granny’s bar, because we weren't shown what bloody well happened. Hook could’ve just as easily left her or hell, maybe he's taking a whiz. We. Don't. Know. But based on zero information let’s by all means pile it all on as being Emma’s fault, and not the fault of the craptastic writing that completely shortchanged the characters and their story line with that oh so very extensive 26 second scene, of which two-thirds of were spent with them kissing and the other third talking about shoving his heart back into his chest. FWiW, the problem with that scene isn’t with the actors, the problem lies entirely with the writing and editing. Period. You don't build up a story line for several episodes, writers,  and then wrap it all up with one single 26 second scene because doing that is just crap storytelling.

Edited March 15, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Zuleikha]

Instead, you'll have a week to make fun of plot holes with us.

 

I won't! ABC airs on a week's delay, so I'll be a week behind since I have to watch online. That's why I haven't caught all the way up to "Unforgiven." So I'll still have a week to ponder plot holes, but they'll be last week's plot holes from the thread perspective. 

[Camera One]

Oh, that's unfortunate.  When I've done rewatch marathons with a friend who lives elsewhere and only catches up when she visits, I do find the show is more entertaining when watched back-to-back, especially since each episode melds into the next time-wise.  I've found that when I do marathon shows on DVD that I never watched on TV (I recently watched S2-S4 of "24" via marathon), I don't think as much about the particulars of each episode.

[KAOS Agent]

I really got no sense of "Oh God, I nearly lost you!" from her.

 

That seems like a Jennifer Morrison acting issue more than a writing/editing issue.

 

Jennifer was given at most 10 seconds to try to show a reaction to her character's boyfriend's near death experience. During that time, she was literally holding his heart in her hands and tasked with placing it back where it belonged. To me, she looked exactly as she should - completely out of her depth and nervous about screwing up the re-hearting. I don't know how she could have also displayed all her fear, anger, upset and confusion with the whole thing in those 10 seconds.There's no way I could lay any of the blame for how disappointing that resolution was on the actress. It was entirely on the writing/editing.

Edited March 15, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[YaddaYadda]

This episode was all over the place.  And I blame the writers for always dragging their feet during the half-seasons and then just throwing everything in the last.  Considering how this all ended, there was absolutely no need for lengthy flashbacks with Anna spending that much time with David or Rumple or Anna meeting Belle since they did not even have a scene together.  Just like there was apparently no need for Emma and Elsa to discuss how to get rid of the Snow Queen since Anna the ever hero pretty much did that all on her own.  Seriously, fuck it!

 

So?  Does time move differently in Arendelle that we were treated to the sisters giggling about knocking Hans off the throne and chocolate and Anna is already in her wedding dress even though they had barely just crossed the portal into their realm?  That btw, I could have done without.  I didn't need a two minute scene of giggling and babbling.

 

They had a pretty wonderful arc built throughout the first half and nothing much came out of it because they have ADD.

[Rumsy4]

Anna's Wedding scene, and the shots scene with Regina and Emma should have been shown after the "Six weeks later" time jump. That would have eliminated the timeline issue for Anna's wedding, and made the transition from the diner scene to the scene of Rumple getting off the bus in NY smoother.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

They needed a flashback to precede the Rumple in NYC sequence.  And before that scene, they wanted the cliffhanger with the library of books.  All three of those final scenes were meant to reinforce the idea of "Villains never get their happy endings" but that might change.  The Frozen scene would break that so-called momentum/theme, so I am guessing that's why they had it earlier, to get it out of the way.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

There's no way I could lay any of the blame for how disappointing that resolution was on the actress. It was entirely on the writing/editing.

Yeah, I can't blame the acting at all because she was giving every bit of non-verbal she could. I did like the way she held his heart like it was very precious to her. But there's not that much she can do if the script or the editing (in case there were written or even filmed scenes that got cut) doesn't show Emma realizing that Hook might be in danger, doesn't show her feeling any sense of urgency in trying to save him, doesn't show her reacting to seeing him nearly die, doesn't show her initial reunion with him immediately after he's saved, doesn't give her any lines saying anything about what nearly losing him meant to her, and cuts away from the brief scene of them together to show a much longer, more involved scene with Regina. We get more of Emma responding to Regina's sadness and consoling her than we got of Emma responding to Hook nearly dying. And all that adds up to make Emma look bad, since we didn't get to see what was happening in Offscreenville. But it doesn't help that she left him at all to run off with Regina when that seems very out of character for her unless he told her he needed to rest and wanted to be alone.

[Shanna Marie]

I guess it's not a real double post if the second one is nearly four years later. 🙂

And my views really haven't changed. I think this really may be the shark jump episode, the point of no return where they couldn't fix the show without going back in time.

If they were going to devote two hours to an episode, maybe this should have been the two-hour one instead of padding that earlier one. Then they could have actually developed what happened between Anna realizing that Mr. Gold was Rumple and Snow and Emma arriving at the clock tower. "Rumple lied" isn't exactly an earthshattering revelation. It just means it's a day with a "y" in it. It's not going to be the one clue that tells you he's up to something in the clock tower right now. Something else should have happened. Emma should have put together clues and got at least a partial win here. I'm okay with Anna being the one to reach Ingrid, and while I'm totally in favor of Belle being the one to order Rumple to give back Hook's heart and then go out of town, they could have let Emma play some kind of active role, maybe working with Belle to set up the sting and provide a diversion so that Belle could sneak up on Rumple and get the real dagger without him noticing.

It was weird that they ignored the whole episode earlier in the season about Emma's fears about losing another man she loves, plus all the previous times she noticed that something was up with Hook. But in this very same episode they devoted a scene to her noticing something was wrong and him fighting past all the control to try to signal to her, and it came to absolutely nothing.

Also, it's weird that what Belle was mad about was that Rumple got the gauntlet back after giving it up to save her. I don't see how that proves that he didn't really care about her. Once she was safe, him going back to get it has nothing to do with her. She had plenty of other reasons to be mad at him, but that's what she calls out at the town line?

And, Henry, bad things didn't happen to Regina in the book. Regina did bad things. They're in the book because she did them, not because some Author has her cast as the villain.

To keep myself from getting too enraged about all those scenes that didn't pay off, I let myself get distracted by looking at how pretty Hook's eyes are, but then I started wondering if Colin wears contact lenses because in some shots it looks like you can kind of see the edge of a lens. (Yes, I was really focusing so I wouldn't yell at the TV too much.)

As for the Marian stuff

Spoiler

This is another place where it's really obvious that they came up with the Zelena twist later (or really, really suck as writers) because the "I'll let him choose" thing with Marian and Regina is wildly out of character for Zelena. Her whole issue is that she's not the one chosen. She's not going to create or allow another situation in which Regina is going to be chosen over her. Even having the frozen heart thing planned that would force Robin to end up with her doesn't work for that because it still means Robin didn't choose her over Regina. He was just stuck with her. It goes against everything Zelena is for her "revenge" on Regina to be to let Regina's boyfriend choose Regina over Zelena, then be forced to reluctantly stick with Zelena. Would Zelena ever create a situation in which she was the second choice over Regina, and she'd then be stuck in a world where she had no magic with a man she didn't love who wished he were with Regina, just to take Regina's boyfriend away from her and then not be able to see Regina's misery?

[Camera One]

I just loved watching this old favorite.  As usual, I cried.  Once during the heartbreaking farewell between Regina and Robin Hood, and another time when Beauty felt she had to part with her beloved Beast who couldn't reach the goodness that existed deep inside of him.

Okay, seriously speaking now, this episode is just as weak today as it was when it first aired.  This winter finale basically told us 4B wasn't going to work, because the entire arc was built on a flimsy and unconvincing premise

Spoiler

and that's exactly what happened.

The Queens of Darkness could tell Rumple had fallen for Belle already by that early point?  

I had forgotten about this episode's random-never-mentioned-again useful magical item - the magic gauntlet.  

Why didn't Rumple go thru to Arendelle with Belle?  Would the hat box not work in the Enchanted Forest?  Or was it too long a wait for the stars in those skies to align with the stars on the hat.  

And as said above, this episode has got to be the worst example of where characters leapfrogged over multiple breakthroughs to save the day.  Emma and Snow got to the clocktower in record time.  Where did David go?  

Poor Will, with no lines standing beside the "Merry Men", a group of men who were so important to Robin Hood they hardly interacted.

[Shanna Marie]

So, which was the most anticlimactic midseason "cliffhanger": The mansion full of empty books or

Spoiler

the coat hangers?

I'm not sure why they thought that finding a bunch of empty books was enough of a hook to bring people back after several months for the next arc. So, there are a bunch of empty books. You'd find the same thing in my office (I have a thing for notebooks, and people keep giving them to me as gifts, too).

Spoiler

Especially since it turned out that it was the pen that was magic. There was never anything special about the books that they revealed.

It definitely wasn't a case of "Oh, I can't wait to see what that's all about!" It really falls down in comparison to the 3A finale, with everyone back in the Enchanted Forest, and then Hook abruptly showing up at Emma's apartment in New York with her having no idea who he was. That was intriguing. Finding a stationery store is not. I guess maybe Rumple in New York meeting up with Ursula was supposed to be the actual cliffhanger, but it's still not much to keep people excited for months.

[Camera One]

I guess we were supposed to be excited we were one step closer to meeting "The Author".  I suppose there was the question of whether the aforementioned "Sorcerer" was the "Author".  

What was it supposed to look like when an Author writes Regina a happier story?  Does she not want to choose her life?  She's fine with the Author making some random stuff up for her?  Or was the Author supposed to ask her what she wants, and the Author writes it?  If the Author does that for her, why not do it for everyone else?  

In the 3A finale, Emma and Henry leaves Storybrooke and apparently they will NEVER return, and neither will everyone who got transported back to the Enchanted Forest.  And then all returned promptly in the 3B premiere.

In the 4A finale, Rumple, Robin and Marian leave Storybrooke and they can NEVER return ever ever ever ever again.  Is anyone falling for that trick again?

If I were Ursula, I would push him into the tank with the piranhas and call it a day.  Oops, does that make me a villain?

Edited February 23, 2019 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

If I were Ursula, I would push him into the tank with the piranhas and call it a day.  Oops, does that make me a villain?

No, your even worse then a villain. You are a hero. Heroes aren't allowed to kill. Especially a villain. Hero killing a villain is the worse thing that could ever happen. Its worse then rape, slaughtering villages and sending children to their deaths. You now have a dark spot in your heart and stuff.