Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[kili]

I'm biased, but since 3A and 3B were all about Hook proving his love to Emma, and the finale had a conversation from Hook about "I don't know if she would do for me but I did for her", I think narratively it makes more sense for the person Emma sacrifices for to be Hook as a continuation of that storyline. I mean, I don't think many people are actually asking "but does Emma really love her brother?"

Last season I was convinced good story telling would be having Hook/Emma True Love Kiss since the showed us "Chekov's's Gun" at the end of 3A with Hook attempting one. I thought we would at least get Emma saving the day since we were told that Emma was needed to save her family. Instead, we got zero movement on the Hook/Emma front until 5 minutes before the end of the season, a kiss curse and Emma not necessary at all while Regina was TLKissing, hooking up with her TL and saving everybody seven ways until Sunday. You'd think Emma being a Lost Girl and Pan trying to get her off the island/upset her would have a pay-off, but you would be wrong. It is no-regrets Regina saving the day.

Therefore, I think a pay off for Emma proving her love for Hook is a bit much to expect. It will probably be Regina proving her love for Robin by saving Marian and then he will TLK Regina to melt her. Marian will turn out to be the equivalent of Hans and probably ate Kristoff's reindeer Sven with Olaf's carrot nose as a side. Emma will apologize repeatedly for hurting Regina in such a thoughtless way.

Edited July 7, 2014 by kili

[retrograde]

Last season I was convinced good story telling would be having Hook/Emma True Love Kiss since the showed us "Kafka's Gun" at the end of 3A with Hook attempting one. I thought we would at least get Emma saving the day since we were told that Emma was needed to save her family. Instead, we got zero movement on the Hook/Emma front until 5 minutes before the end of the season, a kiss curse and Emma not necessary at all while Regina was TLKissing, hooking up with her TL and saving everybody seven ways until Sunday. You'd think Emma being a Lost Girl and Pan trying to get her off the island/upset her would have a pay-off, but you would be wrong. It is no-regrets Regina saving the day.

Therefore, I think a pay off for Emma proving her love for Hook is a bit much to expect. It will probably be Regina proving her love for Robin by saving Marian and then he will TLK Regina to melt her. Marian will turn out to be the equivalent of Hans and probably ate Kristoff's reindeer Sven with Olaf's carrot nose as a side. Emma will apologize repeatedly for hurting Regina in such a thoughtless way.

I also thought they might go the TLK route in 3B, but I'm glad they didn't, because I think it would've been too soon. Even though I agreed they paced the romance badly, even with better pacing, I think it still would and should have basically ended up with her only coming to terms with her feelings in the finale. I agree the TLK attempt could have been foreshadowing (or Chekov's Gun, but probably not one of Kafka's), but that could still come into play next season. 

 

But you're right: they'll only get to play the "Elsa freezes someone's heart and that person is saved by true love's kiss" card once, and Regina/Robin may be the more likely anointed couple than Emma/Hook. I guess it depends how hard they want to push the latter pair as romantic leads next season. 

Edited July 7, 2014 by retrograde

[kili]

But you're right: they'll only get to play the "Elsa freezes someone's heart and that person is saved by true love's kiss" card once, and Regina/Robin may be the more likely anointed couple than Emma/Hook. I guess it depends how hard they want to push the latter pair as romantic leads next season.

 

For Adam and Eddie, it is always "Regina Time".

 

Regina and Robin will have more to work out next season, but they are already confirmed as "Soul Mates" by the pixie dust. T'would be nice to get some confirmation for Emma and Hook (or is Emma going to get a new beau later on?). A&E will probably use Regina's "Frozen" sacrifice and Robin's "True Love Kiss" to convince Marian she is a harpie for keeping those two crazy love birds apart. She will bless their union and hand over Roland and then conveniently die (perhaps a dwarf will get drunk and run over her with a horse).

Edited July 7, 2014 by kili

[Camera One]

I don't think there needs to be any worry about Emma & Hook for next season.  They won't get as much as Queen Regina, but Hook looks like he'll be getting a connection to Elsa, and Rumple also doesn't need to worry for screentime.  What I'm worried about (and hoping for) is that Emma will have any time for non-Hook and Regina related character development and subplots.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Camera One

[retrograde]

 Hook looks like he'll be getting a connection to Elsa

Is that based on the ship speculation, or did I miss a spoiler?

[Souris]

I haven't seen any concrete spoiler about a Hook/Elsa connection. Just a lot of ship speculation. But do tell if there is actually one!

 

As fast as they've moved with Regina and Robin, not only will they get the TLK, but they'll be married with five kids and an SUV by the end of 4B.

 

Hook and Emma seem to be the only relationship they're taking at a standard TV pace. But I want any TLK this season to be theirs, dammit.

[Camera One]

Is that based on the ship speculation, or did I miss a spoiler?

 

Oh sorry, just speculation at this point, with the ship set, as Souris said.  

Edited July 7, 2014 by Camera One

[maryle]

You're probably right and I should have too much hope about a good storyline for Emma and Hook, but the fact that we know so much already about OQ and basically the end is a sure thing Regina and Robin are somewhat !
They're no mystery there !

1) And they will be busy with probably shape shiphter evil Mariam.
2) Jmo tease a link between Elsa (Magic ) and Emma and Anna ( an act of love?) 3) The really conscious incertitude by the writer of Emma feeling toward Hook.
4) Jmo calling sort of boyfriend.
All that goes toward a storyline of Emma questioning her feeling for Hook and will be really a waste to not going there now. But I guess it will be just Regina saving Robin by light magic!

[legaleagle53]

And we now have the title for Episode 04x01:  "A Tale of Two Sisters."

 

Here's hoping that it will be neither the best of times nor the worst of times.

[ShadowFacts]

 

And we now have the title for Episode 04x01:  "A Tale of Two Sisters."

 

Not extraordinarily original, since we just finished a tale of two sisters.  Unless this is a play on the fact that Zelena is not dead, a pet theory of mine.

[InsertWordHere]

If I didn't already know that Elsa and Anna were on their way, I'd be worried that this was about Zelena and Regina. Come to think of it, they do like their dual title meanings, so it still could be about the Mills girls or yet another long-lost relative.

[legaleagle53]

Not extraordinarily original, since we just finished a tale of two sisters.  Unless this is a play on the fact that Zelena is not dead, a pet theory of mine.

 

Since this is the episode that is probably going to introduce Elsa and Anna, I'm going to guess that it has nothing to do with Zelena.

[ShadowFacts]

Agreed, it is Elsa and Ana; my not very well crafted point was the unoriginality of two sisters when we just got done with two sisters. 

[Serena]

Meh. Hopefully the premiere doesn't focus too much on those never-before-seen characters. Remember how annoying it was in Broken, when they would cut away from the interesting action in SB for Philip/Aurora/Mulan? How much better 301 was without flashbacks?

[Camera One]

I'm assuming "A Tale of Two Sisters" will be pretty much like that, except with Frozen flashbacks instead, with the present-day scenes dominated by the immediate aftermath of Robin/Marion/Regina and maybe some irony-laced scenes with Rumple professing that he will forever tell the truth to Belle.  3 minutes of comic relief will be provided by Charming, Snow and the baby.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Camera One

[legaleagle53]

Actually, that last would be fun to see, in small doses:  David and Snow actually dealing with the care of an infant (and having zero experience because they missed out on Emma's infancy).  I mean, Snow said she wanted a second-chance baby -- now she's about to learn the age-old lesson of "Be careful what you wish for."

[Serena]

Josh just tweeted that he and Ginny are going to Vancouver, apparently with Adam and Eddy. So they're gonna be there during the filming of 401.

[NotBothered]

The "Tale of Two Sisters" may refer to not only Anna/Elsa but Elsa/Emma.  Two sisters doesn't have to refer to a set of siblings.  We've already heard that they're setting up Emma and Elsa to parallel each other in terms of their struggle with magic, but I could also see an interesting contrast with Elsa potentially dealing with losing a sibling, while Emma is dealing with gaining one.

Edited July 7, 2014 by NotBothered

[retrograde]

Unless this is a play on the fact that Zelena is not dead, a pet theory of mine.

I still have a foot in this camp, also. And I can kind of see the showrunners going gaga over a "sisters torn apart by magic but reunited through familial love" storyline between Regina and Zelena that parallels the one between Elsa and Anna (except for the part where both of them actually are evil and aren't misunderstood at all, but I don't think they would see it that way). However even if that is the case, I doubt it will be clear in the first episode. (I think if Marian is not who she says she is, the audience will be let in on the first episode, but maybe not to her real identity).

[Serena]

The idea that Marian may be evil makes me crazy. I remember when Tamara first appeared, and people were saying she may be evil. I was like "no, Adam and Eddy wouldn't do that. Remember Abigail? People were saying she was gonna turn out to be evil because she was an obstable to Snow and Charming. But she wasn't! She was awesome! Making the other woman evil is totes beneath this show that A&E keep claiming is about girl power. So they're not gonna do it with Tamara!". How wrong was I? A lot wrong, but I'm gonna keep the faith with Marian.

 

Of course, Snow/Charming were a vastly more likeable couple than Emma/Neal and Regina/Robin, so maybe they figure this time, making the wife evil is the only way people are not gonna call bullshit on a husband leaving his wife for his wife's murderer. 

[kili]

Of course, Snow/Charming were a vastly more likeable couple than Emma/Neal and Regina/Robin, so maybe they figure this time, making the wife evil is the only way people are not gonna call bullshit on a husband leaving his wife for his wife's murderer.

 

I'm going to have to call bullshit on her suddenly being evil, though. By all accounts, Robin and his Merry Men were oblivious to her being evil (how clueless are they?). She demonstrated no evilness while being Regina's prisoner. Begging for help in a sincere way (was that supposed to be to flush out others brave enough oppose Regina?), providing intel to Emma (was that just supposed to frighten her into helping Regina?), telling Emma to go without taking time to save her (was that supposed to be so she could raise the alarm?) and hanging out with Snow/Charming/Charles/Leia without causing any disruption (was she just embedding herself in the enemy camp?).

 

What was her plan? Her motivation? Her goals? She would be the most optimistic planner ever if her plan was to troll around Regina's dungeons until a time traveler from the future kidnapped her and took her three equivalent years into her future. If Tamara's story/goals seemed a little weak, Evil Marian's are going to be more so.

[ShadowFacts]

 

What was her plan? Her motivation? Her goals? She would be the most optimistic planner ever if her plan was to troll around Regina's dungeons until a time traveler from the future kidnapped her and took her three equivalent years into her future. If Tamara's story/goals seemed a little weak, Evil Marian's are going to be more so.

   

 

She can't be an evil person in her own right, it would make no sense as you say.  Plus, Robin recently told Regina he would have walked through hell for Marian.  So evil Marian just wouldn't wash.  It would have to be along the lines of shapeshifter Zelena or some such.  Which I hope it is not, but I kind of doubt we've seen the last of Zelena. 

[sharky]

She can't be an evil person in her own right, it would make no sense as you say.  Plus, Robin recently told Regina he would have walked through hell for Marian.  So evil Marian just wouldn't wash.  It would have to be along the lines of shapeshifter Zelena or some such.  Which I hope it is not, but I kind of doubt we've seen the last of Zelena. 

Oh! I never thought of this. After all, Zelena was the one who was able to create the time travel curse so why not? It fixes the Regina/Robin issue with Marian and it gives Zelena another way to get back at Regina.

 

The other theory I'm still going with is the "Final Destination movie" theory in which Marian is going to still die somehow to naturally correct the fact that she was supposed to be dead already.

 

Of course, either of these theories means Roland will lose his mother again and the same with Robin losing his wife again. Ugh, this whole storyline. Why couldn't they have just slowed down Outlaw Queen and never brought Marian back in the first place?

[kili]

So evil Marian just wouldn't wash.  It would have to be along the lines of shapeshifter Zelena or some such.  Which I hope it is not, but I kind of doubt we've seen the last of Zelena.

 

Zelena likes her complicated plots, but shape-shifting to Marian to get back at Regina seems to have a number of fairly likely points of failure. I can see her easily being captured by Regina, but how does she anticipate that Emma will be captured later that day, be deposited in the dungeon cell next to her, know how to break out and would kidnap her? And how does she even know what Marian looks like well enough to fool her beloved husband? And exactly how long does she plan on pulling the charade of being Marian to get back at Regina? Given Zelena's penchant for chewing the scenery, that jig is going to up in about 10 minutes.

 

I think I'd rather have Regina find Bobby Ewing in her shower than have Zelena be Marian.

[retrograde]

Yeah, to clarify: by "if Marian is not who she says she is" I meant if she's Zelena in disguise, not if she is Marian but is also evil. I agree that would make no sense. 

 

It's kind of a crazy theory, but in its favor: Zelena's death was really weird (the shattering crumble thing), her goal was to ruin Regina's happiness through time travel (which this has done), and it solves the whole Regina/Robin/Marian situation far more neatly than any other storyline I can come up with (and one bonus reason is that Rumple outlined his deceit to Belle to her at length in a textbook Bond Villain speech, setting Zelena up as the perfect person to reveal it). Not in its favor is that a lot of very specific things had to take place for it to work. 

[Serena]

And if Zelena were alive and able to get out of the jail cell while faking her death, and assuming she wanted to shapeshift into Marian to 'steal' Robin, why go through the charade of going back to the past, letting herself be captured, etc? Why wouldn't she simply shapeshift, show up at Granny's, and be like "Surprise! I'm alive, and I just escaped from a dungeon Regina kept me locked in."?

Edited July 8, 2014 by Serena

[Curio]

And if Zelena were alive and able to get out of the jail cell while faking her death, and assuming she wanted to shapeshift into Marian to 'steal' Robin, why go through the charade of going back to the past, letting herself be captured, etc? Why wouldn't she simply shapeshift, show up at Granny's, and be like "Surprise! I'm alive, and I just escaped from a dungeon Regina kept me locked in."?

Because Zelena likes her plans to be ridiculous, convoluted, and overly complicated. (See: cursing someone's lips to take away another person's magical powers.)

[Joenigma]

 

If I didn't already know that Elsa and Anna were on their way, I'd be worried that this was about Zelena and Regina. Come to think of it, they do like their dual title meanings, so it still could be about the Mills girls or yet another long-lost relative.

 

They most certainly do like their dual title meanings, however the dual meaning behind the title don't necessarily have to be related to Zelena and Regina.

 

The episode could be about Elsa and Emma, both are older Sisters who don't quite have total control of their magical powers.

[NotBothered]

The other theory I'm still going with is the "Final Destination movie" theory in which Marian is going to still die somehow to naturally correct the fact that she was supposed to be dead already.

This has been my thought as well.  Marian has escaped death twice now through magical intervention.  I am assuming she'll kick the bucket around mid-season. And I know that a number of other characters have been saved via magic and don't have death following them around, but I don't expect this show to ever been consistent in how they treat things.

 

It's interesting to me that they've had Sean hitting the convention circuit pretty hard but that there's no word on him being upped to a regular for S4.  Just that he and Socha will be on the show and what happens with their characters will "be a surprise."

[ShadowFacts]

I think shape shifting is a cheap writing stunt and that's why I hope they don't go there.  But it would be the type of surprise the writers like to pull off, and Zelena would have lots of motivation to wreak havoc on Rumple for killing her.  I suppose she wouldn't have had to have this as a grand plan, she simply winds up in the Enchanted Forest, observes Emma and Hook, sees what Emma is likely to do with a fellow doomed prisoner, and shape shifts.  Or skin changes.  However that works.  She does have the inborn magic so she could probably pull it off handily.  And it really frees up Regina and Robin, but tough rockos for little Roland.

[legaleagle53]

But how would she have even known it was Emma?  Emma and Hook were still under Rumpel's glamour spell when Emma was imprisoned together with Marian.  Besides, Zelena's goal wasn't to go back to the "Snow Falls" era -- her plan was to go back about a generation farther, to prevent Leopold from dumping Cora and marrying Eva (thus eliminating Regina and Snow's existence and ensuring that she herself would be chosen to cast the original dark curse).

[ShadowFacts]

Her goal definitely wasn't accomplished by landing in the Forest when she did, but what about the time travel spell made Hook and Emma end up in the time they did anyway, I forgot?  Was Emma wondering something about her parents then and her thought took her to that time?  Why wouldn't Zelena bake into the spell the specific timeframe she wanted to get to?   As to the glamour spell, I've got nothing.

[Camera One]

Her goal definitely wasn't accomplished by landing in the Forest when she did, but what about the time travel spell made Hook and Emma end up in the time they did anyway, I forgot?  Was Emma wondering something about her parents then and her thought took her to that time?  Why wouldn't Zelena bake into the spell the specific timeframe she wanted to get to?   As to the glamour spell, I've got nothing.

 

They just keep setting up situations that are so poorly explained (almost with no attempt at explanation) that it feels contrived.  I was actually sort of looking forward to seeing a bit more of Ava and Leopold's time, so it was a little bit of a letdown we went back to the "Snow on the run" era which we've seen ad nauseum.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Camera One

[legaleagle53]

You are correct as to why Emma and Hook didn't go all the way back to Zelena's original target era.  Emma had been thinking about how her parents met when she and Hook were sucked into the time portal, and the portal apparently worked the same way that the magic beans work -- it took the traveler to whatever era he or she was thinking about when he or she entered the portal.

[sharky]

It's interesting to me that they've had Sean hitting the convention circuit pretty hard but that there's no word on him being upped to a regular for S4.  Just that he and Socha will be on the show and what happens with their characters will "be a surprise."

Yea, this is a strange one because I think they've said that Socha is going to be a regular, but they haven't said the same of Sean. So why a big storyline for a guest actor but a regular for someone who hasn't even been on Once yet?

 

But how would she have even known it was Emma?  Emma and Hook were still under Rumpel's glamour spell when Emma was imprisoned together with Marian.  Besides, Zelena's goal wasn't to go back to the "Snow Falls" era -- her plan was to go back about a generation farther, to prevent Leopold from dumping Cora and marrying Eva (thus eliminating Regina and Snow's existence and ensuring that she herself would be chosen to cast the original dark curse).

You can get around a glamor spell if you have the power Zelena has -- that's my guess at least. And perhaps she couldn't control where the portal was going to take her. I can see her sneaking back into the barn after the whole "breaking to death" thing that she somehow survived and then jumping into the portal while Emma and Hook were trying to pull themselves out. Hell, maybe she jumped in and grabbed onto Emma's foot, dragging Emma down into the portal. Anyway, lots of detailed explanation for a theory that they probably won't use. ;) But c'mon! It's the hiatus! What do you expect from us?

[Artsda]

Ugh.

 

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/07/08/once-upon-a-time-elizabeth-mitchell/

 

 

TV geek goddess Elizabeth Mitchell is coming to Storybrooke.

 

Mitchell has joined the cast of ABC’s Once Upon a Time for a season 4 arc as part of the much-anticipated Frozen-inspired storyline. The move marks Mitchell’s return to ABC, where she became a fan favorite on Lost. Since then, she’s starred in ABC’s V and was most recently on NBC’s Revolution. Only this time, we hear Mitchell might be playing a villainous character.

 

Mitchell’s Once Upon role isn’t being revealed yet, but we’re told she is “possibly malevolent” with ties to royal Frozen sisters Anna (newcomer Elizabeth Lail) and Elsa (Fringe familiar Georgina Haig) as well as to Storybrooke and Arendell. The events in Once Upon are expected to take place after the events in last year’s animated Disney hit. Let the speculation begin!

[legaleagle53]

Well, at least she's not playing Elsa -- and as insufferable as her character on Revolution became, playing a villain should be right up her alley.

Edited July 8, 2014 by legaleagle53

[Souris]

Oh, god. ::headdesk::

 

I hate stunt casting so much.

 

Maybe she'll be Hans' sister. Or a character more like the fairy tale Snow Queen.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Souris

[InsertWordHere]

Is it possible she's the "Regal Woman" from the Episode 4.1 script?

[Aliasscape]

Oh Adam, what're you doing? Maybe she can be the Queen of Arendelle. Elsa and Anna's mother. Who you know, dies.

[kili]

Mitchell’s Once Upon role isn’t being revealed yet, but we’re told she is “possibly malevolent” with ties to royal Frozen sisters Anna (newcomer Elizabeth Lail) and Elsa (Fringe familiar Georgina Haig) as well as to Storybrooke and Arendell.

 

Maybe she's Elsa's and Anna's crappy Mom.  She didn't die in that shipwreck at the begiining of 4x01...she caused it!  Tired of being a Mom and hiding her own magical powers (unlike her daughter who never could figure out that trick), Mom ditched dad at the bottom of the ocean and moved to a small cabin in Maine. Little did she know they were going to drop a town on her. Unlike Owen and his Dad, she knew enough to keep quiet and just fit in. She's been managing  the Rabbit Hole all along.

 

Either that, or she was a wood troll and has been transformed into a human because of the curse. She's been annoying people for the last years giving vague advice that is easily misunderstood so that the person does the exact opposite of what's recommended resulting in much harm....i.e. she works the service hotline for the electronics store.

[Rumsy4]

Oh groan... I did like her in LOST though.

[Artsda]

I have a lot of hate for her Revolution character still, so if she's evil and they kill her. I'll probably like it. lol

[Writing Wrongs]

As soon as I saw Adam's tweet, I started laughing.

[Shanna Marie]

I guess this means Elsa really won't be a villain, which is nice to know. She may be a temporary fake-out villain -- Yikes! She's making it snow! Kill her! -- and then they discover who the real problem is.

 

I actually like Elizabeth Mitchell from what I've seen of her as a person (I believe she's originally from around here -- she gets interviewed locally a lot). I've just ended up hating to the point of quitting every show I've seen her in, but not because of her.

[Serena]

Oh, Lord. So we'll have three more new characters' backstories? Kill me now.

[Souris]

That is an awful lot of new characters -- Elsa, Anna, Kristoff, Will, Marian, now whoever Elizabeth Mitchell is playing. Will the regulars be able to get a line in edgewise? I'm actually very concerned about them being pushed to the side for their new toys. (Except Regina, of course. They'll never push her to the side.) It was bad enough with the Zelena-centric arc of last season, but she was only ONE new character. Next half-season there will be SIX newbies.

[Mari]

They do like word games--is it possible they've just recast Maleficent?

[Rumsy4]

So basically all the flashbacks will be about all these new characters. That only leaves room for the Marian drama, and she is kinda new too in a sense. This is getting ridiculous!

[Shanna Marie]

So, how will this new character be related to either Regina or Rumple? Rumple's long-missing mother? Cora's even more evil sister? And how will some member of Snow's family have mildly insulted her, thus being entirely responsible for her evil?