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Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

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So either Neal isn't a monkey or Rumple doesn't know he's a monkey, right? Otherwise he wouldn't let Charming hurt it like that.

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I was going to post this over at [you know], but thought I'd take this site for a test drive.

Regarding monkey!Neal speculation, I am going to go out on a limb and say that I don't think Neal is a monkey. It's one thing when astute viewers like us speculate that, but when the characters on the show are doing so also, I think the truth will be different. My best guess at present is that Neal has gone dark, all on his own, not controlled by Zelena. He is, after all, son of Rumple - he has it in him. If this is true, then loving goodbyes and a heroic death may not be in the cards for Neal. But at least it will clear up any lingering doubts about whether he was the right person for Emma.

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Regarding Neal, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that if he didn't get turned into a monkey then he might've found something at Rumple's old digs that he might've used and backfired on him in some way?  He did want to stop by, so I'm assuming there will be some kind of flashback to show that.

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That round portaly-looking thing in the fairy back of the promo with the black ooze certainly seemed rather ominous. I could buy maybe Neal got in over his head.

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The sneak looks great. Finally a father/daughter conversation. I've got to say that I'm, really loving all the combinations of Emma, Hook, David, and Rumple that we've seen so far since the mid-season return.

But Snow is just torture. Good thing the sneak came out because the stills had me dreading the episode. I am not liking the Snow/pregnancy/Wicked story line at all.

Last episode had me thinking it, but Wicked's costume in the photos makes me think its intentional. Are they having Zelena masquerade as Mary Poppins?

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Last episode had me thinking it, but Wicked's costume in the photos makes me think its intentional. Are they having Zelena masquerade as Mary Poppins?

Wasn't there an interview a few months ago that suggested a Cruella DeVil appearance and some people thought the Witch might pull double villain duty and be Cruella as well?

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Yet.

Watch out, Pongo.

It weirds me out that a picture of kittens if chasing these posts. Maybe that's the twist. A coat made of kittens.

Is "too many voices" from the sneak something Rumple has talked about before? Is it all his victims? All the prior Dark Ones? Or something new?

Edited by ParadoxLost

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On the sneak peak with Rumple I don't think the monkey is Neal. It did sound like Emma had already talked with Neal and for her words maybe even let him down easy. She says "it was hard" " Henry makes it complicated" who else would she be talking about.

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The sneak looks great. Finally a father/daughter conversation. I've got to say that I'm, really loving all the combinations of Emma, Hook, David, and Rumple that we've seen so far since the mid-season return.

I think you mean Regina, but yes, I agree--that foursome has been seriously clicking the last two episodes.

And yeah, you know, watching that sneak peek, I'm excited for Charming to become Emma's sounding board. I mean, I think you can tell he's stung that Emma wants to go back to "normal life" in NYC, but he doesn't make it All About Him (ahem, SNOW and REGINA). And I like that Emma can offer up the information knowing that David will be a sounding board and not flip out or whatever. He's definitely the non-judgey parent.

Edited by stealinghome

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I think you mean Regina, but yes, I agree--that foursome has been seriously clicking the last two episodes.

I didn't. Although I didn't mean to exclude her either. It was really just a round about way of saying the absence of Snow/Mary Margaret has the show humming along much better. I really liked when Snow resembled BanditSnow. I haven't founf much to like about Snow since they arrived in Neverland.

Edited by ParadoxLost

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Wasn't there an interview a few months ago that suggested a Cruella DeVil appearance and some people thought the Witch might pull double villain duty and be Cruella as well?

People were theorizing Cruella when the spoiler that the villainess had a theme song came out.

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He's definitely the non-judgey parent.

 

I so agree and like that this season Emma and Charming are having those moments we had all been hooping would have happened in the past. Lot of this we can put down to Ginny's real life pregnancy taking her out of a lot of action, but all the better for the plot. Snow always seemed to just want Emma to fit this mold of what she thought her daughter would be and just, to me anyway, not quite "get" who Emma was as a person. Charming does seem to.

I'm not feeling the "monkey is really Neal". Maybe Walsh, maybe even Little John for all we know. But I seem to recall somewhere that we had a hint from someone that Neal would go "dark" and to me that implies dabbling in magic or taking an evil turn in his actions. For him to try magic, which he has always hated, is a pretty desperate act and he probably will turn out to not have inherited dad's magic touch.

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Regarding Emma wanting her NYC life back. She had a flood of memories after the potion and they included abandonment from her new family & loved ones. If I had a stranger come to me with, "Luke, I am your father..." I would be meh...where have you been all my life? Sure, she was beginning to bond with them, but I can see how she would choose her old life that might provide safety for her son and sanity for herself. 

YMMV, of course. 

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I can't even imagine the confusion Emma must be going through with two sets of memories. Imagine having to weed through what was real and fake. Having to relive everything that has happened all over again. I know some are impatient but that will take a little time to find her footing again. 

I'm really curious how Henry will respond to having his memories back. I hope there's some struggle there just like the rest went through. What if he's more mad about Emma waking him up than her lying to him?

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Regarding Neal, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that if he didn't get turned into a monkey then he might've found something at Rumple's old digs that he might've used and backfired on him in some way?  He did want to stop by, so I'm assuming there will be some kind of flashback to show that.

My crackpot and likely untrue theory is that Neal cast the dark curse, using his own heart,  because from the smugness that seems to radiate off of him like stink off Peanuts' Pig-Pen, I think Neal loves him some Neal more than anything else in the world.

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Hook might have cast the curse, sacrificing the Jolly Roger, partially to get back to Emma and partially to save the Enchanted Forest crew from some certain doom that was about to befall them back home. The curse might have scooped them out of some Alamo-esque killing field situation, which is why so many of them are missing. I have no idea how to explain the missing year's worth of everyone's memories in that scenario, though.

Edited by Long Days Night
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Regina, Robin Hood, and Roland filmed at Granny's tonight.

Emma and Hook filmed afterwards but it was blocked from viewing.

Filming ends April 3rd.

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People elsewhere are freaking out because the Hook/Emma scene was blocked, so they're thinking it must be a big deal and many are speculating a proposal. If it was just a kiss would it be blocked? Not sure what else it could be.

Also, Hook is still in pirate gear and Emma is wearing her red leather jacket.

Here's a blurry photo of Regina, Hood and Roland.

http://colindonoghue.tumblr.com/post/81054506570/ouat-set-visit

Apparently the scene was spoilery, but wasn't blocked hmm, and the poster said they looked like a happy family.

Edited by pezgirl7

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I'd say a kiss (or even a hug!) would be a big deal given that currently Emma seems to have Hook firmly in the friend box with little sign of any romantic interest (I could write a lot more on that but it really should be on the relationships thread).  I'm almost wondering if Hook is the death given how much they have cooled things off compared to season 3a.  Even the writers might have thought that letting her get close to him and then having him die would be a little bit too much to add to the list of love interests who

a) left her in jail, and pregnant as it turned out

b) had their heart ripped out by the evil queen who didn't like sharing

c) turned into a flying monkey and was probably more of a guard than somebody actually interested anyway. 

Although on second thoughts quite possibly they would go there.  It wouldn't even be that out of character for him to do some stupid grand gesture to save someone.  It's only the fact JMo has said good things start happening to Emma that is reassuring me as I think Emma would mind a bit if Hook died.

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I wonder if it was a kiss. I feel like it would be awkward for the actors to begin with so they probably blocked it from the crowds. Plus, remember how much attention that picture of the hug got. We all anticipated it because of the spoilers and then it didn't happen. So maybe they're trying to avoid another situation like that.

Edited by sharky

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My crackpot and likely untrue theory is that Neal cast the dark curse, using his own heart,  because from the smugness that seems to radiate off of him like stink off Peanuts' Pig-Pen, I think Neal loves him some Neal more than anything else in the world.

I wouldn't really put anything past him.  Because Neal wants what he wants.  Because while everyone sort of seemed to accept that Emma and Henry were lost to them, Neal was all about going and finding them.  Regina cut out her own heart then decided to focus on that fight with Wicked, Hook went back to find the Jolly Roger, Snow and Charming decided to focus on rebuilding the kingdom.  Neal wants to go to Rumple's.  Never mind that Emma made it clear enough to him that she didn't want to be with him. 

I do get that Neal has never really had a family and that he probably sees this as his opportunity to have that, but sheesh, dude!  I think whatever he did/does is going to create one giant mess.  I never thought Neal was so driven that he would use magic.

And Belle is probably the only person who knows what went down and she doesn't remember.

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Hook might have cast the curse, sacrificing the Jolly Roger, partially to get back to Emma and partially to save the Enchanted Forest crew from some certain doom that was about to befall them back home. The curse might have scooped them out of some Alamo-esque killing field situation, which is why so many of them are missing. I have no idea how to explain the missing year's worth of everyone's memories in that scenario, though.

That actually fits really nicely with what's been my probably wrong but cracky theory--that the Storybrookers cast it on themselves as a last resort, and it backfired somehow, which is why no one remembers.

Of course, Zelena seems to be awfully in control of things and doesn't seem to be missing her memories, which I suppose is a flaw in that theory.

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Of course, Zelena seems to be awfully in control of things and doesn't seem to be missing her memories, which I suppose is a flaw in that theory.

I've long suspected that Regina cast the curse to get them all away from Zelena, only Zelena hijacked it and caused them all to lose their memories of the past year (ie that involve her).

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If the memory loss was purposely part of the curse, that makes this curse particularly cruel.  When you're eentsy Roland-size, a year changes your whole body and abilities; poor Roland and all his age-mates woke up not only in a completely foreign place with no warning, but in a strange new body.

In some ways, it is crueler than Regina's original curse.  Huh. 

Edited by Mari

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Is there a separate thread for speculation, or is it okay to post here?  I'm still confused about the old rule about "boards on boards", but I have a question that might lead to speculation, if it hasn't been asked already.

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Is there a separate thread for speculation, or is it okay to post here?  I'm still confused about the old rule about "boards on boards", but I have a question that might lead to speculation, if it hasn't been asked already.

Not that I have any "power" here or anything, but I don't see a problem with speculating in this thread. On TWoP there is/was still speculation in the Spoiler Thread and is/was usually speculation that uses the spoilers as a jumping off point.

Looks like we still don't have a "Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers" thread though so I'll make one for those posters that want to speculate without the spoilers.

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And I'm back.  Thankfully I'm making these newbie mistakes here.  A cut and paste:

Is there any chance the character who dies is Snow?  They could kill her off in the childbirth scene, which could play well into David being afraid to parent this new child.  He'd have no choice if Snow was gone.  Or is it possible that Zelena or someone else could switch the Snowing baby with Aurora and Philip's baby?

Thanks for letting me wonder!

Edited by SnarkyBean

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Wouldn't Aurora and Philip's baby already be born?  I wonder if this curse is exclusive to the original characters or if more have been transported to Storybrooke. 

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Not that I have any "power" here or anything, but I don't see a problem with speculating in this thread. On TWoP there is/was still speculation in the Spoiler Thread and is/was usually speculation that uses the spoilers as a jumping off point.

Looks like we still don't have a "Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers" thread though so I'll make one for those posters that want to speculate without the spoilers.

Sorry for the late response, but you are dead on with your answer, regularlyleaded!

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daxx -- Let your fangirl flag fly! I love seeing Hook in something else and same with JMo. Season finale awesome sauce!

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Those pics of Colin and JMo wearing different clothing shouldn't make me feel as excited as they have. But they look so adorably awesome!! (I don't even care if JMo's in civilian clothing in that pic and not actually shooting at that precise moment, she looks great).

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One goes to bed thinking that tomorrow it's finally Thursday and the sneak peek will be out soon... And wakes up with the internet in fibrillation thanks to those great pictures! Ah, I'd like to wake up like this every week! I actually grinned all the way to work!

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Sharky, cannot answer on TWoP...

About your revelation: couldn't it be Hook dreaming under the Sleeping Curse? Fandom is postulating for him to be cursed and for Emma to realize her feelings for him and thus True Love kissing him. Well dressed Hook prposing to paesant Emma could fit the pattern (don't we dream about being different/better/rescuing boys/damsels in distress?).

A Sleeping curse on Hook could also explain why him, Rumple and Zelena have filmed a scene just the three of them. I always wondered why, but it was perhaps for this?

 

EDIT: I suddenly remembered last sentence.

Edited by Alex

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Ohhh! That could work too. Either way, someone is asleep and someone has to wake up. I just assumed it was Emma since JMo said these were her favorite episodes for Emma. But even that hint could easily work either way.

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I have been assuming that Hook would fall under the sleeping curse so that emma has to make the choice to TLK him. She is the one that needs to let her feelings out. She needs to be the one to kiss him awake.

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Yep... And all this theory has been swept away by Adam's twitter... Well, it was a good dream!

Back to square one and other theories. Have to brainstorm.

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AH: "How Hook and When Hook"

I'm going to have some fun here:

I think the Hook that came back for Emma is from the future.  He tried the TLK because he already knows he's her true love.  He called out Neal for using dark magic and hugged him goodbye because he already knows Neal used such magic and is dead.  All the cagey looks and odd behavior is because he already knows what's going to happen.  When he said, "Perhaps there's another you love in the life that you lost" he already knows they're together.

ETA:  If he didn't come from the future then at least he has knowledge of it.  Perhaps that was part of the deal with trading away his ship (if that's what he did).

ETA2:  Someone over at TWoP wondered if the person who sent Hook the message about the dark curse and to get Emma was Hook himself.  They think perhaps Hook somehow diverted to the Lost Year and sent himself the message.  I like that.  

Edited by GreyBunny
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Like maybe Hook himself sent his past self the message that there was a new curse coming? Well, I mean, if an apple can be taken from the past, surely a message could make its way back.

I have to say, the timing of getting these pics is amazing since it comes right when we officially put to rest the 'Neal is gonna die' speculation that's been going on the past few months. The only other thing we really had to focus on was the wedding, but this is so much better.

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The only problem with that theory is that the showrunners have been quite clear that time travel is the one well that they are never going to.  The bit with Jefferson's hat being used to retrieve the poisoned apple doesn't count because neither Jefferson nor Regina ever actually went back in time; the hat only opened a portal through which the apple fell into Jefferson's hand.

Besides, I still think that it would run afoul of the Third Law of Magic (that magic cannot change the past).  What would be the point of Hook going back in time if the past cannot be interfered with in any way, either by Hook or Zelena?  Hook wouldn't be able to change the past, and he can't be said to have gone back to prevent Zelena from changing it because he wouldn't have to -- Zelena can't change the past, either.

Edited by legaleagle53

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The only problem with that theory is that the showrunners have been quite clear that time travel is the one well that they are never going to.  The bit with Jefferson's hat being used to retrieve the poisoned apple doesn't count because neither Jefferson nor Regina ever actually went back in time; the hat only opened a portal through which the apple fell into Jefferson's hand.

Besides, I still think that it would run afoul of the Third Law of Magic (that magic cannot change the past).  What would be the point of Hook going back in time if the past cannot be interfered with in any way, either by Hook or Zelena?  Hook wouldn't be able to change the past, and he can't be said to have gone back to prevent Zelena from changing it because he wouldn't have to -- Zelena can't change the past, either.

They could have changed their mind about time travel, which though would be a pity. Time travel is messy, can be even if you make a whole show about it (Quantum Leap, Time Tunnel, anyone watching Continuum at the moment?). And here it would include not just going back, but definitely a change in the past, otherwise why should there be Emma in Enchanted Forest like different outfit if time travel is the thing? This show just did a reboot with the old Dark Curse being "undone" and jumping a year ahead in present time. So now we have flashbacks to the lost year in the Enchanted Forest, present time events in Storybrooke, and as it looks there will be as well some past time flashbacks to the Enchanted Forest. Think there are already people struggling to keep up with timeline and realm-jumping (even some fans), want to confuse things even more?

If you make people wonder too much about what is going on, you lose them as audience. Although you could try and confuse them so much, that they don't care anymore and think it's an exciting big mystery to solve (nope, I was not a fan of Lost).

Edited by katusch

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