S07.E12: Red Rose

[Febgirl]

 

I think I would be more forgiving of this show if its creator and some media outlets would stop acting like it was the best written/acted show on TV. I mean Kurt Sutter at more than one point has compared this show to The Wire (I think once he said he knew how David Simon felt about being ignored by the emmys). He has also complained that this show does not get the recognition that Mad Men does (and that was back when Mad Men was really good). TV writers on more than a few occasions have called it the Sopranos with motorcycles. But it is not any of those shows. And if Sutter wants it put on the same level as those shows to me it requires more criticism. Plus at least Idris Elba was able to hide his British accent.  

 And this is why, and I posted on the Sons in the Media thread, that I'm kind of pleased about this finale leak.   To read Sutter's posts on Social media, it's like the world is coming to an end. The Emperor has no clothes.

I was trying to explain to a co-worker the other day where I rank this show among the "greats".

 Without using numbers, I gave my top marks to Breaking Bad and The Wire  Level two to Justified, The Shield and The Walking Dead, and then Sons of Anarchy below them.  I'd love to know 6 months, maybe a a year or two down the line, who from the cast will spill that working on the show for Mr. Sutter was a nightmare.

[Kel Varnsen]

 And this is why, and I posted on the Sons in the Media thread, that I'm kind of pleased about this finale leak.   To read Sutter's posts on Social media, it's like the world is coming to an end. The Emperor has no clothes.

I was trying to explain to a co-worker the other day where I rank this show among the "greats".

 Without using numbers, I gave my top marks to Breaking Bad and The Wire  Level two to Justified, The Shield and The Walking Dead, and then Sons of Anarchy below them.  I'd love to know 6 months, maybe a a year or two down the line, who from the cast will spill that working on the show for Mr. Sutter was a nightmare.

That is sort of thing thing for me too. I mean if Sutter didn't think so highly of this show I would probably not be so critical. But if he wants to put it in the same realm as shows like Breaking Bad and The Wire, that is not going to happen. If he had just said this a a fun, kind of over the top drama and we will make it as good as possible I would totally be ok with that.  I would put it on the same level as a show like Burn Notice. Both shows were good, but the creators of that show never had any disillusions that they were the best show on TV.

 

I also find it funny when anyone brings up this show and compares it to Shakespeare. Now I haven't read any actual Shakespeare since high school, but I do know that at the time his plays weren't considered some kind of high art, but more just entertainment for the masses, with over the top plotlines/violence, and dirty plays on words/sex jokes. In that respect I see the sons as being a lot like Shakespeare. 

[NoWillToResist]

That is sort of thing thing for me too. I mean if Sutter didn't think so highly of this show I would probably not be so critical. But if he wants to put it in the same realm as shows like Breaking Bad and The Wire, that is not going to happen. If he had just said this a a fun, kind of over the top drama and we will make it as good as possible I would totally be ok with that.  I would put it on the same level as a show like Burn Notice. Both shows were good, but the creators of that show never had any disillusions that they were the best show on TV.

 

Call me crazy, but I don't think any "artist" gets to say where or how their creation fits into the cultural landscape; that's up to the audience to decide.

 

If people will remember it fondly a decade from now, you can pat yourself on the back THEN for making something that resonated with people. But you can't toot your own fucking horn, claim you're making the best thing on tv and expect people to fall in line behind you, ready to kiss your ass.

 

A creator/writer/director can judge and praise the acting, the music, the set design...basically anything that they were NOT involved with, IMO. Nothing makes me check out faster than a person who is full of their own sense of self-importance and brilliance. It's this kind of ego that turned me off TPTB involved with LOST in its later years. Carlton Cuse and Lindelof can fuck off forever, as far as I'm concerned.

Edited December 8, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[monakane]

 And this is why, and I posted on the Sons in the Media thread, that I'm kind of pleased about this finale leak.   To read Sutter's posts on Social media, it's like the world is coming to an end. The Emperor has no clothes.

I was trying to explain to a co-worker the other day where I rank this show among the "greats".

 Without using numbers, I gave my top marks to Breaking Bad and The Wire  Level two to Justified, The Shield and The Walking Dead, and then Sons of Anarchy below them.  I'd love to know 6 months, maybe a a year or two down the line, who from the cast will spill that working on the show for Mr. Sutter was a nightmare.

 

I agree with your post.  I did not watch The Wire, so I would give that position to the Sopranos.

 

I have often thought that Sutter must be a nightmare.  After watching the cast members reaction to him on the after show and seeing his twitter rants, I am convinced.  

[Kel Varnsen]

On thing this episode got me wondering about (and this whole season actually) is when people who live this kind of outlaw lifestyle die, what exactly happens? I mean no one is ever going to report Gemma missing  (or Bobby or Piney for that matter). But it is not like she lives completely off the grid. I mean I am sure her house is paid for, but what happens when the bills or property tax gets don't get paid? I am sure someone like Piney was probably getting government security/pension cheques. Does the club keep making sure Gemma's bills and the taxes at TM and everything get paid so no one comes snooping around?

Edited December 8, 2014 by Kel Varnsen

[henripootel]

That is sort of thing thing for me too. I mean if Sutter didn't think so highly of this show I would probably not be so critical.

Not I.  I don't care if Sutter thinks he's Shakespeare reborn, he gets both barrels from me just like everyone else.  For what it's worth, actual Shakespeare could be a bit uneven himself - even his best plays could use a bit of editing and scrutiny.  Ever wonder when Desdemona ever found the time to supposedly cuckold Othello?  So did I.  There simply wasn't enough time for she and Iago to 'make the beast'. 

 

My point: nobody gets a pass.  We come here to bury Caesar, not to praise him.

[Captanne]

There is no doubt in my mind that Jax would have found some way to forgive Gemma if she'd been honest.  They are so screwed up, those two.  BUT, this is the distinguishing factor for me, her lie made him massively lay waste to the Club throughout California and, arguably, Ireland and Mexico.  His massacres had long reaching enduring impact.  Not to mention what the upheaval of Jax's wholesale slaughter of most of the men in the area surrounding Charming and Stockton did to the rival gangs.  It also caused the torture and death of Bobby.

 

He couldn't let her live.  He couldn't and she knew it.  There was no way.  All these "infinite outs" people have been talking about baffle me.  She had no out at all.  She was a dead woman walking and she certainly knew it.  I would say IMHO but I just can't read it any differently so it's not really an opinion....it's a plotpoint imperative by everything we've been given from S1E1 to present day.  

 

Her lie caused Jax to betray everything he and his Father (problematically) believed in.

[BetyBee]

Lin - Triad suffered the most and for absolutely no reason. And Jax is still killing them off!  He's a monster.  He'd kill off Tyler too, if the Irish didn't want to work with "black".  Yet Sutter would have us think of Jax's legacy as building a rainbow coalition of thugs. At least, if that's the unwritten bylaw Jax wants changed.

[NoWillToResist]

There is no doubt in my mind that Jax would have found some way to forgive Gemma if she'd been honest.  They are so screwed up, those two.  BUT, this is the distinguishing factor for me, her lie made him massively lay waste to the Club throughout California and, arguably, Ireland and Mexico.  His massacres had long reaching enduring impact.  Not to mention what the upheaval of Jax's wholesale slaughter of most of the men in the area surrounding Charming and Stockton did to the rival gangs.  It also caused the torture and death of Bobby.

 

He couldn't let her live.  He couldn't and she knew it.  There was no way.  All these "infinite outs" people have been talking about baffle me.  She had no out at all.  She was a dead woman walking and she certainly knew it. 

 

And that's kind of why I'm surprised that Gemma came up with the lie. She knew full well what would happen when she pointed the finger at Lin, so WHY did she make things WORSE for her precious baby boy? I really wanted Jax to be killed by the Chinese just so that Gemma would have to live with the knowledge that her selfish lie caused the death of her beloved Jackson.

 

I guess Gemma really felt that just killing Tara would have been a death sentence, or at least banishment from seeing her grandkids (which, to Gemma, would have been equivalent to death anyway)? 

Ego has been a big thing with Gemma...I'm really surprised she didn't trust that she had her claws into her BAYYBEEE far enough to think that she would be able to get away with murdering his wife in the heat of the moment...

[Artsda]

I do think that there was so much discord going on around the time of Tara's death with Tara's fake baby pregnancy, fake killing the baby and making Gemma take the blame. The turning on the club with the bullet and the deal for witness protection, the divorce, the plan, the planning to take the kids. That with all that and Gemma thinking at the time that Tara was turning in evidence and Jax was going down, had Gemma told Jax the truth about her mentality at the time and what she believed to be the truth he may have forgiven her. 

After all that the fact Gemma wasn't everyone's first thought of "who killed Tara?" is just dumb. 

 

 

To read Sutter's posts on Social media, it's like the world is coming to an end.

Reading the interviews and even seeing the cast on their own time in paparazzi pics, it seems like all are method actors. Theo gave an interview recently where he said "I still talk to Unser and Tig." He didn't call them their real names, but used the character names. Half of them look and dress like their characters when on their own time, some even admit to wearing their characters clothes/cuts when they weren't working. For some of them I think the end of the show is their world as they know it ending.

[MonicaM]

 

On thing this episode got me wondering about (and this whole season actually) is when people who live this kind of outlaw lifestyle die, what exactly happens? I mean no one is ever going to report Gemma missing  (or Bobby or Piney for that matter). But it is not like she lives completely off the grid. I mean I am sure her house is paid for, but what happens when the bills or property tax gets don't get paid? I am sure someone like Piney was probably getting government security/pension cheques. Does the club keep making sure Gemma's bills and the taxes at TM and everything get paid so no one comes snooping around?

 

In real life, CPS would be looking for Gemma to question her about child abuse allegations.  Even as just a witness and not a suspect, law enforcement would want to keep tabs on her so they could continue to question her when needed.  Since Unser was helping with ongoing investigations, law enforcement would notice his absence right away too.  

 

However, in Charming, no one would look for Unser or Gemma unless KS put it in the script.  In Charming, the power would stay on at her house, the lawn would stay nice and neat and there would probably be fresh food in the fridge at all times, even weeks or years after her disappearance.  Things work differently in that world.

[Disraeli Ears]

I agree with others regarding Sutter: he seems to think he is way more clever than her is. While I have generally found this show entertaining, it isn't really great television (as far as the writing - I have found myself suspending disbelief all the time - the acting is often very good). And I can't really watch the after shows: can't stand Sutter's love of his own work and everyone else's brown nosing.

[jrlr]

I've been entertained by the show (mostly) up until this season.  But I never thought the writing was particularly good; the unfamiliar world of bikers and some very strong actors carried most of it for me.  But seriously?  I can name half a dozen shows just in the past couple of years that leave SOA in the dust (no pun intended) writing-wise.  Besides the obvious Sopranos, IMO there's The Killing, Homeland, Top of the Lake, The Affair, Mad Men (mostly), Masters of Sex - they all had top of the line writing.  SOA, not so much.

[TigerLynx]

I thought things went off track in Season 3, but I liked Seasons 4 and 5.

 

Since they killed off Clay and Tara last season, I was expecting more from this season than just more people dying.

 

I’m hoping the finale is good.

 

If Jax meets Mr. Mayham, will Happy, Tig, or Chibbs be the one who kills him?

Edited December 8, 2014 by TigerLynx

[jrlr]

Maybe because Jax is so beloved by the gangs (I don't know why) they will let him off himself, ride his bike into a truck or tree or whatever killed his father, or just over some cliff.  I think I would have liked this episode more if Jax had told Gemma to turn around and face him in the rose garden and then eaten his gun in front of her.  But then again, those pesky kids would be left to her. . .

[Insomnia]

I think the limp is because someone put a poisoned tack into his shoe. Why? I have no idea, nor who, but I think he's going to die, but not by Mayhem. I mean, poison is usually a woman thing, and I can't see why any big gang would off Jax in that manner, except to get rid of him since he should be so full of holes so many times over they figure bullets don't work or something. But yeah, poisoned tack. Because, reasons.

 

It's just that the shoes were prominent and sort of book-ended the episode; we get a close up of them all sparkling and white, and he gets the limp, and then at the end they are covered in blood. There are only a couple of times when they've shown them to be blood covered, and the first shot was from behind, the second from the front, it's as if the shoes were framing the episode somehow.

 

Also, I foresee all this JT foreshadowing to be a "His life flashes before his eyes." Sort of thing, except more It's a Wonderful Life sort of thing; here's how much the life of your children will suck if you go ahead and kill yourself. And he'll veer away from whatever on his bike and not die, and presumably none of the shit that has happened will happen....for about two weeks, then Clay and Gemma will kill him anyway and it won't have fixed a damn thing.

[Febgirl]

 

For some of them I think the end of the show is their world as they know it ending.

  Well, If we're honest, how often does lightning strike twice with a hit TV show?  ( Jimmy Smit's luck aside)  These guys were incredibly lucky to have a 7 year run on a show.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Febgirl

[Kel Varnsen]

  Well, If we're honest, how often does lightning strike twice with a hit TV show?  ( Jimmy Smit's luck aside)  These guys were incredibly lucky to have a 7 year run on a show.

Don't forget Katy Segal's luck. As good, if not better than Jimmy Smits. But you are probably right, after this show ends, most of these guys will go back to being Thug #2 or something like that. 

[BigBlueMastiff]

Anyone know what boots Gemma was rockin in this episode? I want some ;)

[jrlr]

I think the limp is because someone put a poisoned tack into his shoe. Why? I have no idea, nor who, but I think he's going to die, but not by Mayhem. I mean, poison is usually a woman thing, and I can't see why any big gang would off Jax in that manner, except to get rid of him since he should be so full of holes so many times over they figure bullets don't work or something. But yeah, poisoned tack. Because, reasons.

 

It's just that the shoes were prominent and sort of book-ended the episode; we get a close up of them all sparkling and white, and he gets the limp, and then at the end they are covered in blood. There are only a couple of times when they've shown them to be blood covered, and the first shot was from behind, the second from the front, it's as if the shoes were framing the episode somehow.

 

Also, I foresee all this JT foreshadowing to be a "His life flashes before his eyes." Sort of thing, except more It's a Wonderful Life sort of thing; here's how much the life of your children will suck if you go ahead and kill yourself. And he'll veer away from whatever on his bike and not die, and presumably none of the shit that has happened will happen....for about two weeks, then Clay and Gemma will kill him anyway and it won't have fixed a damn thing.

Interesting point since Hamlet - even though there's a sword fight - actually dies of poison on the blade of the sword..

[marcee]

You don't think he would've found a tack in his shoe? That just seems kind of out there as a theory.

 

As far as the kids staying with Wendy...Why would anyone even be looking into it? No one would even know where to find them let alone fight for custody or choose to put them into the already overcrowded system. Once they're safe on the farm I see no reason why anyone would intentionally track them down just to break up a 'happy family' for no reason. Regardless of official custody or signed papers - once they're out of Charming, they're gone. Why would anyone question it?

Edited December 9, 2014 by marcee

[Kel Varnsen]

As far as the kids staying with Wendy...Why wouldn't anyone even be looking into it? No one would even know where to find them let alone fight for custody or choose to put them into the already overcrowded system. Once they're safe on the farm I see no reason why anyone would intentionally track them down just to break up a 'happy family' for no reason. Regardless of official custody or signed papers - once they're out of Charming, they're gone. Why would anyone question it?

Assuming this were to happen, would Wendy be able to register them for public school or talk them to a hospital or even get a library card without any kind of documentation proving that she is their legal guardian? Yes there would be no one to contest it, but at the same time to assume the role of the parent she would need something wouldn't she?

 

Plus would foster care really be that much worse than living on a farm with a semi-retired pimp/OG and an ex-junkie/biker old lady? 

[Captanne]

Isn't Chibs taking a gig on "Arrow" as a villain?  (I don't watch Arrow so I have no idea.  Except John Barrowman is yummy and adorkable.)

[ByTor]

Isn't Chibs taking a gig on "Arrow" as a villain?  (I don't watch Arrow so I have no idea.  Except John Barrowman is yummy and adorkable.)

He could be, but I did hear that he will be playing a villain on Revenge.

[Captanne]

That might be what I heard!  Thanks!

[missy jo]

I have often thought that Sutter must be a nightmare.  After watching the cast members reaction to him on the after show and seeing his twitter rants, I am convinced.

 

Co-sign. He comes off like a really nasty piece of work.

[Insomnia]

You don't think he would've found a tack in his shoe? That just seems kind of out there as a theory.

 

We're still talking about Jax, right?

[Cruella]

There simply wasn't enough time for she and Iago to 'make the beast'.

 

Iago? Nobody implied that she had sex with IAGO.

[henripootel]

Iago? Nobody implied that she had sex with IAGO.

D'oh!  I'm not even gonna even try to explain the editing sequence that produced that.  Good catch.

Edited December 14, 2014 by henripootel

[tpplay]

If we're voting for best TV shows ever (and I'm late to this party because I just this week watched all 7 seasons of Sons of Anarchy), SOA doesn't even come close IMHO.

 

The Wire and Deadwood by a mile.  (If a show's going to be called Shakespearean, Deadwood is that show)  I didn't watch Breaking Bad - I missed it for the same reason that, in the end, I wish I'd missed SOA.  I hate JAX.  There's not a redeeming freaking thing about him.

 

The Shield was a better show, I think, because there were ALWAYS people to root for.  The central character was a great big prick just like JAX is, but there were people on the show who believed he was a great big prick almost from the beginning and they were rootable people.

 

But I don't think the Shield is one of the best TV shows ever either.  I do think Battlestar Galactica's up there. And Friday Night Lights.  (THAT's a hero.)

[Chaos Theory]

As much as I love BSG (and I do) it fell apart at the end. I am one of the people who think SOA stayed true to itself to the end. I don't need anyone to root for if the story is good and the acting is good. Hell I think Katey Sagel gave the performance of a lifetime in this which is enough alone to put it into the great category. Io do understand a lot of people need a hero to root for though but this story had always been billed as a Shakespearen tragedy and it ended as one.

[hatchetgirl]

On 12/4/2014 at 4:20 AM, Joan van Snark said:

Wow, that is like--really awesome!  Do you ever get a chance to chat with him about the show? Are you in LA?

Shees! I'm awful for not replying. 

 

It is awesome, sometimes. Lol The industry is a PITA most times, blocking traffic, noise, attitude, but every now and then it's cool. Like the time I walked into Kevin. Mckidd's chest. Yummy.