S05.E08: Coda

[mandolin]

I think those are both fan spec, though Sasha might've been able to connect the dots with Martin and draw the same conclusion.

Edited December 4, 2014 by mandolin

[kikismom]

Has it been established on the show or on TD that the Termites found the church because Martin lived? Or is this just fan speculation?

 

Also, the talk about Rick not staying at the hospital because he didn't want to expose his kids to rapists, was it said that Rick knew about that or is that too just fan speculation?

Well, the question is also, did we ever establish that Tyreese broke the radio? Martin found out Judith's name, because of Tyreese...and Rick Bob Glenn and Daryl didn't even know Judith was alive. If Gareth knew, it's because Martin told him, and if Martin still had the radio he could have regained consciousness when they were outside the cabin saying we gotta get moving let's go this way and Martin could have called Gareth who had his radio when he ran from the abbatoir.

[Ocean Chick]

Gareth was always going to track Rick's group down and try to eat them.  But with Martin still living he was able to give names to everyone in the church and scare the bejeezus out of them.

 

I don't think Rick knew about the rapes, unless Noah told him on the way to Grady.  Noah was the only one of that group who knew anything about Grady.

[Pete Martell]

There was never any indication of them finding the church because of Martin. Martin was a tracker, but it can't have been that hard to find the group, as the church was likely one of the only places around nearby that could be inhabited.

Gareth was always going to track Rick's group down and try to eat them.  But with Martin still living he was able to give names to everyone in the church and scare the bejeezus out of them.

 

Other than Judith, Carol, and Tyreese, Gareth would have known all of their names already.

[mandolin]

I wonder, if the church was so easy to find, why hadn't they eaten FPP already?

[GodsBeloved]

I wonder, if the church was so easy to find, why hadn't they eaten FPP already?

A logical question but this show is holding up less and less when logic is applied.

[Pete Martell]

I wonder, if the church was so easy to find, why hadn't they eaten FPP already?

 

They didn't go and eat random people, did they? I thought they mostly lured people to Terminus.

[mandolin]

I just had the thought that maybe they were saving him for communion.

 

And yeah, maybe they only ate ones that followed the signs.

Edited December 5, 2014 by mandolin

[Pete Martell]

A logical question but this show is holding up less and less when logic is applied.

 

I don't think it's that illogical - they would have had to go to a lot of effort just to go find, kill and eat one person who spent most of his time locked up in a church.

[lulee]

I wonder, if the church was so easy to find, why hadn't they eaten FPP already?

Would you want your meat with a urine marinade?

[mandolin]

Wait, am I the only one that enjoys a good urine marinade?

 

(ew, I just grossed myself out)

[nodorothyparker]

The Termites knew about "the gray haired bitch" presumably because of Martin.  Didn't Gareth tell Bob they might have nabbed Carol had Daryl not gone looking for her near the conveniently plotted car to Atlanta?  And yeah, they only could have known Judith's name because Tyreese told Martin.

Edited December 5, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[RainOnToosdays]

I know the list of "Why I hate/don't mind/love Tyrese" has probably been exhausted but      ..............    Tyrese is the worst

Tyrese has to go. I've moved from wishing he would just sort of fade away to wanting a ton of bricks dropped on his head. Sasha needs to go too though she is not quite as bad as her brother. They knew Karen & Bob for like five minutes each, STFU about them and get over it, I can't stand their blathering anymore. Carl is just a kid and he had to shoot his own mother in the head for cryin' out loud, as well as his stand-in dad, Shane, but he hasn't gone on and on about it. Geesh. Tyrese and Sasha strike me as the sorts whose mailman would die and they would go to the funeral and weep and wail and carry on more than the mailman's wife and kids. Everything is about them and their feelings, never mind that everyone around them is going through or has gone through the same or much, much worse. 

 

The last straw for Tyrese with me was when Tyrese and Sasha were on the roof and they were supposed to be protecting Rick below as he went to meet the cops. Sasha was trying to stay on top of it but there's Tyrese, yammering in her ear, distracting her, paying no real attention to his own weapon or the situation down below. I wanted Sasha to push him away and say "NOT NOW YOU FOOL!!!" Gah. They both need to go. 

[Irishmaple]

The relationship factor doesn't really bother me because I can see ZA romantic connections being intense, emotionally.  You find someone when you thought you never would, literally, because there are so few people left.  You find someone who likes you and wants to hang with you, and kiss you despite the fact that you might have missed the toothpaste on your last run and haven't showered since you can't remember.  Tyreese seems like someone who bonds quickly and Karen seemed like a nice, competent woman.  Bob worked his way under Sasha's defenses and seemed to have genuine heart.  I understand them mourning because it's a loss not just of a relationship, but of a hopeful future.  And both losses were sudden and traumatic.  Karen had an ugly death and Bob died unpleasantly as well.  I think Sasha is mourning with dignity and anger, and she's still out there taking care of her business.  Tyreese is just annoying and needs to stop distracting his sister with his self-justifications. 

[kikismom]

The back 8 of this season better get real better real fast and real consistently or this might be the first box set I don't buy. I liked the first 3 eps....that's pretty much it. 3 out of 8.

[Pixiebomb]

I wish they would go back to calling Judith "Lil' Ass Kicker". Apparently the name burned with the prison. They need to bring back some of the old charm in the second half of the season. The characters are just dirty and gritty and hopeless. I never thought I would say this but I find the Tara scenes as some of my favorites. I guess I'm just in the world building camp and I'd like to see them settle down a bit.

[AngelaHunter]

And both losses were sudden and traumatic.

 

I can't think of any losses  on this show that haven't been sudden and traumatic, like Carol's child, Rick's wife, Carl's mother, Daryl's brother, Andrea's sister, Maggie/Beth's father, etc etc, but they haven't moped and wept over them as much as Tyreese has carried on about a very short-term girlfriend. It's too bad he didn't use some of his pent-up fury on someone other than RICK.

 

Carl is just a kid and he had to shoot his own mother in the head for cryin' out loud, as well as his stand-in dad, Shane, but he hasn't gone on and on about it. Geesh. Tyrese and Sasha strike me as the sorts whose mailman would die and they would go to the funeral and weep and wail and carry on more than the mailman's wife and kids. Everything is about them and their feelings, never mind that everyone around them is going through or has gone through the same or much, much worse.

 

 

Amen!

[BrokenRemote]

If they start leaving behind group members for horrible and cowardly decisions based on what they thought would help them survive, they'd have very thin numbers indeed.

If he regrets his behavior and tries to become productive, I don't see why he shouldn't stay. If he continues to be a coward and selfish, then I'm sure he won't last long.

I for one don't hate Eugene, or Tyrese, or Gabriel, in this episode or in any. The reason is that I think it adds to the story to make characters human and fallible. They all have their faults--these guys just have faults that are more dangerous in an Apocolypse.

They've found ways to make it this far into the Apocolypse and I don't find that impossible to believe. I don't want everyone to be good or smart or brave or strong or honest. A group made up of this many people with no 'losers' would, to me, be not only boring but unrealistic.

The way I see it, there needs to be conflict to have a story worth telling. There need to be obstacles. Now, they can come in the form of zombies and evil humans over and over and over, or sometimes the obstacles and conflicts can be due to the fallibility of the good guys. We can only explore Rick's failings so often. I think the pacifist, weak characters bring their own pieces of a more realistic representation of who might have made it so far (even though they may have made it there on the backs of stronger, smarter, braver better people).

[Pete Martell]

Tyrese has to go. I've moved from wishing he would just sort of fade away to wanting a ton of bricks dropped on his head. Sasha needs to go too though she is not quite as bad as her brother. They knew Karen & Bob for like five minutes each, STFU about them and get over it, I can't stand their blathering anymore. Carl is just a kid and he had to shoot his own mother in the head for cryin' out loud, as well as his stand-in dad, Shane, but he hasn't gone on and on about it. Geesh. Tyrese and Sasha strike me as the sorts whose mailman would die and they would go to the funeral and weep and wail and carry on more than the mailman's wife and kids. Everything is about them and their feelings, never mind that everyone around them is going through or has gone through the same or much, much worse. 

 

They knew Bob and Karen for months. Bob helped save Sasha's life from the virus. Bob was on the road with her, in high-risk situations. Karen and Tyreese had less alone time, but also had down time to bond. That's like saying Carol shouldn't mourn Lizzie and Mika because she barely knew them.

 

I haven't seen Sasha doing any of this. She hasn't spoken to anyone about Bob, except Tyreese when he repeatedly brought up the subject. She's done everything the group has asked of her. She hasn't cried and wept. She hasn't lashed out. She hasn't told anyone that their grief is meaningless in comparison to hers. She actually put the group first over Bob when Bob was dying - Tyreese told her she should spend his last moments with him. Instead she focused on helping the group kill the Termites. 

 

I literally cannot remember her having more than one conversation about Bob (not counting the first with Tyreese because she shut him down), in two episodes. 

 

Sasha made a stupid mistake, which she clearly shouldn't have done and which she was also clearly upset by, thus refusing to listen to Tyreese's further attempts to convince her not to harden herself. 

 

I'm just not sure when Sasha has gone around being dramatic. Tyreese has, at times, especially right after Karen died, but I haven't seen this with her.

 

If Sasha can't grieve privately to her brother, away from everyone else, all while, other than making that one huge blunder (which is still better than pretty much everyone else in the group), being totally there to help out, then she would have to be a robot.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Pete Martell

[nodorothyparker]

 They knew Karen & Bob for like five minutes each, STFU about them and get over it, I can't stand their blathering anymore. Carl is just a kid and he had to shoot his own mother in the head for cryin' out loud, as well as his stand-in dad, Shane, but he hasn't gone on and on about it. Geesh. Tyrese and Sasha strike me as the sorts whose mailman would die and they would go to the funeral and weep and wail and carry on more than the mailman's wife and kids. Everything is about them and their feelings, never mind that everyone around them is going through or has gone through the same or much, much worse.

 

I hate to try to rank whose grief is the worst, but I think this is yet another place where the show's timetable is doing the characters no favors.  I really have to struggle to remember that Karen's only been dead for weeks or maybe a month or so and Bob a few days in showtime because we as viewers saw Bob go back near the beginning of the season and Karen more than a full year ago.  So it certainly feels like they've been going on and on and on about it forever because that's what we've seen, but in their reality they're still fairly new in their grief.

 

I'll also put my Sasha fan hat on here and say I haven't really seen her dwell on it all that much.  I do think it's on her mind and Tyreese certainly hasn't helped matters by wanting to talk about it ALL the time, which I think is causing her to lose focus but my annoyance on this front is squarely about him.

Edited December 5, 2014 by nodorothyparker

[GreyBunny]

I love Tyreese but I agree, his timing was horrible.  If he needed to talk to Sasha about forgiving herself, the time to do it was when they had some downtime, not when she's trying to cover Rick during a hostage exchange. 

[Mu Shu]

I wonder, if the church was so easy to find, why hadn't they eaten FPP already?

Or why didn't the Grady cops kidnap him and give his useless ass purpose by making him join the laundry/mopping crew?   

[Pete Martell]

Other than the kidnappings of young women they could assault, they mostly seemed to go to sites where people had been injured.

[GodsBeloved]

They knew Bob and Karen for months. Bob helped save Sasha's life from the virus. Bob was on the road with her, in high-risk situations. Karen and Tyreese had less alone time, but also had down time to bond. That's like saying Carol shouldn't mourn Lizzie and Mika because she barely knew them.

I haven't seen Sasha doing any of this. She hasn't spoken to anyone about Bob, except Tyreese when he repeatedly brought up the subject. She's done everything the group has asked of her. She hasn't cried and wept. She hasn't lashed out. She hasn't told anyone that their grief is meaningless in comparison to hers. She actually put the group first over Bob when Bob was dying - Tyreese told her she should spend his last moments with him. Instead she focused on helping the group kill the Termites.

I literally cannot remember her having more than one conversation about Bob (not counting the first with Tyreese because she shut him down), in two episodes.

Sasha made a stupid mistake, which she clearly shouldn't have done and which she was also clearly upset by, thus refusing to listen to Tyreese's further attempts to convince her not to harden herself.

I'm just not sure when Sasha has gone around being dramatic. Tyreese has, at times, especially right after Karen died, but I haven't seen this with her.

If Sasha can't grieve privately to her brother, away from everyone else, all while, other than making that one huge blunder (which is still better than pretty much everyone else in the group), being totally there to help out, then she would have to be a robot.

What you said. Balanced and fair. I think I'll focus on your posts LOL

[AngelaHunter]

Were you ever in Middle TN around the early 80s?

I think we may have dated.

Nope. I'm really a very nice person but Tyreese has m anaged to make me hate him in the way I have never hated a fictional character or someone I don't know. Oh wait. That's not true. Harvey Levin, are your ears burning?

[Boofish]

A few tidbits to remember - 

 

FPP had never ventured outside the Church until he was found by the Ricktones. He ran out of food

 

Rick didn't need to know the people at the hospital ate lollipops sexually. He knew they TOOK Beth against her will and that Noah tried to escape and so did Beth. The only information he needed is that they didn't want to be there; the reasons why to me seem irrelevant

[kikismom]

I would have written the MSF that Eugene dies from Abraham's hit, Rosita yells at him that he used violence against his own, he can't be trusted by his own people anymore and maybe they shouldn't be with him anymore, that would be like his dead wife speaking to him, and leaving him, and he shoots himself in the head but first shoots Rosita so that we will not be separated we go together.

That has a vibe of Abraham's story coming full circle, and keep them so frightened and reacting that no one puts Eugene down and he turns and Tara has to take out Walker Eugene who is coming after Maggie. Shocked Glenn Maggie and Tara rush back to the church and tell Michonne how it all went wrong, and Michonne says Beth is still alive! Maggie gets hope out of depression, they go to help Rick and gang get Beth and Carol just in time to see Beth is dead too---and this flips Maggie out.

Now the DC cartoon crew is out, the lollicops are out, the group is a more manageable size, and the death of Eugene! Walkerized! Has to be put down by Tara! Rosita being shot! Abraham shooting himself!---ramp up a little exciting action that could quickly be attached to Beth's demise and make it seem less anticlimactic and less disconnected to the general theme.

 

ETA

Edited December 5, 2014 by kikismom

[Bruinsfan]

Who would you be most pissed to see killed off? If they keep Rick, Carl, Michone, Carol, and Daryl, I can live with anyone else dying, including Judith.

Switch Carl and Judith and you have my take on it. But I could probably go for any of the above except Carol dying IF it were done well enough and advanced the story. I'd be sorry to see them go (like I was with Jacqui and Herschel), but could enjoy the larger story if it benefited by their end.

[JBody]

Ah kikismom.  If only…
I was totally underfuckingwhelmed by this MSF, to be honest.  It had its moments of awesome, way more moments of breathtaking stupidity, and finally moments of…  *stares off into space*  …the word is likely ennui.
The reviews are in and they ain’t good.  Well, the ones I’ve read aren’t.  Here are some snippets for the pressed-for-time crowd I know y’all are:
somewhat pokey - indiewire
everything about this second group of antagonists was a huge mess... it was a confusing set-up – forbes
almost, but not entirely, manages to squander the goodwill the show has been building for itself all fall – a.v. club
featured some of the worst plotting of season 5, which rendered the story more laughable than moving – io9
I really have only one conclusion: Showrunner Scott Gimple and his writing team simply blew this one. – WSJ
The plus side here is I am being weaned of my obsession with this show, which frees up my time for other obsessions.  There was a time when I would watch every episode multiple times and pore over that excruciating minutiae like a berserk Elaine Benis but I am just not feeling it.  And from what I have read about what’s coming up I don’t know if that’s gonna change.
*bring back Darabont* *bring back Darabont* *bring back Darabont*

[JackONeill]

Every show peaks.  (Well, there's NCIS, but that's something that defies every law known to man.)

 

I've been meaning during these last few months to start a thread asking for everyone to pick a point in time when TWD will come stuttering to a halt.  End of Season 5, probably 6, just because of momentum.  I think if it makes it to 7 that'll be something.  (Now, understand, i don't want the show to end -- but I see it happening.  Hell, it doesn't matter what I want; all shows end.  Well, except for NCIS.)

 

The problem is laid out in a sentence we've all used when talking about Rick and crew -- they keep going in circles.  4 and 1/2 seasons and we're nowhere -- literally and figuratively (and on the map).  Sure, there have been "exciting Walker kills."  Whooppee!!.  How about character development or a sense of urgency?  (There's been a little of both, but not nearly enough.)

 

Of course, the show may last longer than what I think, but it won't be because it's great entertainment.  It'll be because AMC will see it as a money-maker, regardless of merit.  (And here's where I mention NCIS again.)

 

{I was way too rash when I first wrote this.  The show will definitely make it to Season 7.  The actor's contracts will play a role (so to speak).  But after that . . .}

Edited December 5, 2014 by JackONeill

[ghoulina]

FPP had never ventured outside the Church until he was found by the Ricktones. He ran out of food

 

That's not entirely accurate. When they came across him he said that was the furthest he'd been at that point, but he had ventured out before. He mentioned scavenging nearby houses, but that he'd never bothered with the food bank because it was "overrun". 

 

somewhat pokey - indiewire

 

Best. Review. Ever. 

 

*bring back Darabont* *bring back Darabont* *bring back Darabont*

 

I'll start a petition. But, sadly, I bet it won't even get a quarter of the signatures that the stupid "Bring Back Beth" one did. (Although, I'd wager the grammatical errors will be less common.)

[JBody]

Dude, this thing is gonna be the Gunsmoke of the 21st century.

AMC has, is, and will use this thing to finance all the other crap that doesn't generate the numbers (money).  In twenty years' time my grandchildren will be posting on here complaining that granny always says they shoulda kept Darabont....

Gunsmoke: 1955 - 1975

TWD: 2010 - 2030.  Minimum.

[JackONeill]

Dude, this thing is gonna be the Gunsmoke of the 21st century.

AMC has, is, and will use this thing to finance all the other crap that doesn't generate the numbers (money).  In twenty years' time my grandchildren will be posting on here complaining that granny always says they shoulda kept Darabont....

Gunsmoke: 1955 - 1975

TWD: 2010 - 2030.  Minimum.

 

So, in other words, somewhere around 2021, we'll see a crossover episode with NCIS, and there'll be an extra special guest star one evening: The Fonz. 

 

The last two channels still broadcasting TV signals: AMC and CBS.

[JBody]

Did you say the Fonz jumping a shark?  I'm IN!!!

[kikismom]

About half way down in this article, EK explains why she says the line "I get it".

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2857656/Emily-Kinney-Walking-Dead-reveals-secrets-shocking-midseason-finale.html

[AngelaHunter]

Speaking of Cooorral!, when was the last time he said more than two words in an episode? Am I forgetting something?

[JBody]

Coral tried to give Father Pee Pants a lesson in zombie killin' but he felt faint and had to have a little lie down (under the floor boards).

[AngelaHunter]

Coral tried to give Father Pee Pants a lesson in zombie killin' but he felt faint and had to have a little lie down (under the floor boards

 

Oh, right! Thanks for the reminder. You better save your breath to cool your soup, Coral.  Assuming you'll ever get any soup again, that is.

[Pete Martell]

Ah kikismom.  If only…

I was totally underfuckingwhelmed by this MSF, to be honest.  It had its moments of awesome, way more moments of breathtaking stupidity, and finally moments of…  *stares off into space*  …the word is likely ennui.

The reviews are in and they ain’t good.  Well, the ones I’ve read aren’t.  Here are some snippets for the pressed-for-time crowd I know y’all are:

somewhat pokey - indiewire

everything about this second group of antagonists was a huge mess... it was a confusing set-up – forbes

almost, but not entirely, manages to squander the goodwill the show has been building for itself all fall – a.v. club

featured some of the worst plotting of season 5, which rendered the story more laughable than moving – io9

I really have only one conclusion: Showrunner Scott Gimple and his writing team simply blew this one. – WSJ

The plus side here is I am being weaned of my obsession with this show, which frees up my time for other obsessions.  There was a time when I would watch every episode multiple times and pore over that excruciating minutiae like a berserk Elaine Benis but I am just not feeling it.  And from what I have read about what’s coming up I don’t know if that’s gonna change.

*bring back Darabont* *bring back Darabont* *bring back Darabont*

 

When I see this sentiment, I'm never sure how to react, because to me, Darabont's touch is still there. Every scene of characters talking endlessly about goodness and morality reminds me of Darabont. So do all the themes of humanity. I'm biased as I didn't really like season 1 and most other fans did, but other than a little more stylish filming, I don't see what he brought that isn't there now. If anything I think he generally struggled with this type of material, and so does Gimple.

 

The show has almost always had terrible reviews. The idea has always been that the show was only good for a few episodes and the rest sucked. That's one of the reasons I was surprised critics liked this season, as, to me, nothing in it has been a huge jump in quality from season 4, which I thought, other than some major issues with the Karen/David storyline, "Bethyl," Abraham/Rosita/Eugene being shoehorned in, and spending too much time on The Governor, was a damn fine season.

 

Critics don't care about quality as much as they care about a story to sell and about making people pay attention to them. Both of those were accomplished by talking about how TWD suddenly got great. Let's say the next 8 episodes are incredible (which I'm really not expecting but we'll see). Will the critics agree? I wouldn't count on it. They've got their story now. Oh, TWD sucks again. 

 

Critics sneered at or ignored the best material this show ever had. To be honest, I don't give a fig what they have to say. I only read AV Club because of the comments. The rest I happily ignore.

Speaking of Cooorral!, when was the last time he said more than two words in an episode? Am I forgetting something?

 

Last week.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Pete Martell]

I would have written the MSF that Eugene dies from Abraham's hit, Rosita yells at him that he used violence against his own, he can't be trusted by his own people anymore and maybe they shouldn't be with him anymore, that would be like his dead wife speaking to him, and leaving him, and he shoots himself in the head but first shoots Rosita so that we will not be separated we go together.

That has a vibe of Abraham's story coming full circle, and keep them so frightened and reacting that no one puts Eugene down and he turns and Tara has to take out Walker Eugene who is coming after Maggie. Shocked Glenn Maggie and Tara rush back to the church and tell Michonne how it all went wrong, and Michonne says Beth is still alive! Maggie gets hope out of depression, they go to help Rick and gang get Beth and Carol just in time to see Beth is dead too---and this flips Maggie out.

Now the DC cartoon crew is out, the lollicops are out, the group is a more manageable size, and the death of Eugene! Walkerized! Has to be put down by Tara! Rosita being shot! Abraham shooting himself!---ramp up a little exciting action that could quickly be attached to Beth's demise and make it seem less anticlimactic and less disconnected to the general theme.

 

ETA

 

I don't think that's a bad exit for Abraham and Eugene, but to be honest with you, if Rosita had been gunned down just because of another even more wanly written female character (Abraham's wife), and her role on the show had been reduced to Abraham's last corpse, then combined with Beth's death, I probably would have quit watching the show. It would seem more like shock value to me than even Beth's death did.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Pete Martell

[JBody]

It's true, and I never much cared for what the critics said. That's why I was a mite surprised when I found out we agreed on something. I'm still gonna watch this show. Although I doubt I'll ever hatewatch it as I did with The Following, Under the Dumb and The 100. I dont think I could. I spend most of my time wondering where the buzz went. It's weird. We will just quietly part ways, most likely.

Oh you know my Darabont routine is *mostly* facetious (at least I think you do, by now?). I know we don't agree on that. It's a bit of useless nostalgia.

[NoWillToResist]

About half way down in this article, EK explains why she says the line "I get it".

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2857656/Emily-Kinney-Walking-Dead-reveals-secrets-shocking-midseason-finale.html

 

One of their captions was: Beth met her tragic demise on Sunday's midseason finale of The Walking Dead but she didn't go down without a fight.

 

Err, did I watch a different episode? That implies that Beth was going to die but she made sure to make it difficult before she went but Beth didn't have to 'go down' at all, fight or not. She 'went down' BECAUSE she decided to 'fight'.

[Pete Martell]

I have a weird relationship with the show because I have repeatedly lost buzz, then I get back into it again. I was that way at the end of season 3. I almost didn't even want to start back again. And I'm there again. I'll still watch, but I do think they mucked this up. 

 

It's funny you mentioned that AV Club review, because I just went back and looked at their reviews, and saw that they gave "Too Far Gone" (which was a far better MSF) a B-, the same grade they gave this one. And they gave "The Grove" (a high quality episode for me) a C+. I didn't realize just how low many of their reviews were. That's probably one of the reasons I feel defensive of the show at times. It doesn't get that type of blank check that something like "Sopranos" did, where I thought most of the last 3-4 seasons of the show were a sleepy, bloated mess, yet I'd still have to hear about how it was the best ever. 

 

If you ever wanted to talk about why you miss Darabont, in the all seasons thread or wherever, I'd promise to read and not make any comment or anything. I'd be genuinely interested to hear a fan's perspective, as I just couldn't get into his work. 

[Macbeth]

I loathe to bring this up.  But, to me, it is the elephant in the room.  Given the events this week - TWD had its own death at a cop's hand.  An "accidental" shooting.  In TWD land it is the blonde girl who gets killed.

 

I have not been able to rewatch this episode - given the events of this past week. I am sorry to bring the mood down.  But it has been a pretty bad week, and TWD's plot unwittingly coincided with these terrible events.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Macbeth

[JBody]

I have a weird relationship with the show because I have repeatedly lost buzz, then I get back into it again. I was that way at the end of season 3. I almost didn't even want to start back again. And I'm there again. I'll still watch, but I do think they mucked this up.

It's funny you mentioned that AV Club review, because I just went back and looked at their reviews, and saw that they gave "Too Far Gone" (which was a far better MSF) a B-, the same grade they gave this one. And they gave "The Grove" (a high quality episode for me) a C+. I didn't realize just how low many of their reviews were. That's probably one of the reasons I feel defensive of the show at times. It doesn't get that type of blank check that something like "Sopranos" did, where I thought most of the last 3-4 seasons of the show were a sleepy, bloated mess, yet I'd still have to hear about how it was the best ever.

If you ever wanted to talk about why you miss Darabont, in the all seasons thread or wherever, I'd promise to read and not make any comment or anything. I'd be genuinely interested to hear a fan's perspective, as I just couldn't get into his work.

Yeah it's funny how some shows are just critical darlings, grab the Emmya etc and yet aren't as deserving, in my mind, as some of the greatest moments on this show. It's a genre bias (originally) and now it's a popularity bias. I did most of my Darabont analysis back on TWoP but I'll rummage around my tired old brain sometime this week at work and see what comes up. You're welcome to comment! I don't think he's infallible or anything ;)

[RainOnToosdays]

Well crud, I was trying to respond to a few things w/ quotes from up-thread but lost it all with one bad click of the mouse and don't want to re-gather the quotes and re-type so I'll just wing it here ...

 

You are right, the time table in TWD dead world had never been clear and combined with 6-8 months between seasons and 2-3 months for a mid-season break ... yeah, what may seem like eons to us viewers may only be days for the characters.

And I guess I am being too hard on Sasha, finding her guilty by association I guess. I'll try to look at her in a more neutral light when the show returns. But Tyrese, no can do, I still want a ton of bricks dropped on his head. 

 

 

[Pete Martell]

Sorry if my post seemed too aggressive. I was half-asleep when I wrote it. I do agree that the timetables are confusing. Having the entirety of the Karen/Tyreese relationship be offcamera didn't help either. 

[NurseGiGi]

Everyone else has already expressed their disappointment in this episode far better than I could so I'll just say that I agree.  The writing has always been terribly inconsistent but this MSF was just the worst.

 

I have to say that I'm one of those who has always been happy to see glimpses of Morgan and looked forward to his possible return but I've changed my mind now.  His return will never live up to my expectations because I fully believe that the writers will drop the ball, yet again.  I can still remember the promos for the first season of TWD and how much I looked forward to seeing it.  For me the premise was different and the promise of what it could be was something I wanted to see explored and developed.  I think Morgan represents to me what the show could have been based on that initial relationship he developed with Rick.

 

Anyway, I no longer hold out any hope for the reunion of Rick and Morgan Part 2.  And I blame Robert Kirkman's smug ass because I can and I don't really care if it's rational or not.  I see his cartoonish fingers in everything that's wrong with this show and I blame his behind the scenes manipulations for ruining it.

 

They started off this season with a bang and I had hoped the writing would improve this year but here I am again, disappointed as usual.  I've always watched for the blend of character development and action but mostly for the interactions of the characters.  When they sacrifice the integrity of the characters for stupid plot contrivance then I lose my reason for watching.

[RedheadZombie]

I don't pay attention to who writes which episodes, but I've consistently read criticism of what Kirkman is involved with.  It's interesting because I frequently read that in The Game of Thrones, the author of the source material writes the best episode each season.  I don't like what I've seen of Kirkman from TTD.  He seems smug and he has no rapport with the actors.

[LilySilver]

I don't pay attention to who writes which episodes, but I've consistently read criticism of what Kirkman is involved with.  It's interesting because I frequently read that in The Game of Thrones, the author of the source material writes the best episode each season.  I don't like what I've seen of Kirkman from TTD.  He seems smug and he has no rapport with the actors.

Exactly why I felt so awful for Emily Kinney having to sit next to him in the midst of her little emotional breakdown...

 

"Smug" is definitely the right word, I and I don't trust him to do right by characters for whom it seems I have greater affection and respect than he does---and they are his own creations. I think it's weird how he giggles about how "everybody dies," and doesn't seem aware that it's those characters that keep an awful lot of us coming back in spite of the gore, instead of vice-versa. Not that I can't handle it if characters die--any of the characters, really, if it's done properly (properly for Rick would of course involve my weeping body draped gracefully over his as he confessed with his dying breath that he had always secretly loved me too...and I'd need creative input as to the lighting and music)--Kirkman just seems so callous to the human element of the story, and so jazzed and impressed with himself over the gore and hopelessness.  There's nothing wrong with a zombie story that's just about horror and gore, but it's not something I would ever watch. No one who knows me can believe I watch TWD as it is--for me it's all about the humanity, survival, and relationships.  Kirkman doesn't seem to get that at all.

 

As he sat there on TD with Emily in a puddle of tears next to him, with that smug expression, I swear I wanted to jab a teensy pair of scissors into his...upper arm? Ha. Take that, ye basterd.

 

As Nurse Gigi said, when they can't take the time and care to do justice to the the characters and opt for the quickest contrivance available just to get the quick payoff/shock value, I feel cheated.  There has to be enough to bring me back in spite of the gore and the bleak outlook. Don't be lazy, writers.  I can forgive a lot, but it's been a pretty steady pattern of sacrificing the integrity of what we know of the characters.  

Edited December 6, 2014 by LilySilver