S10.E07: Girls, Girls, Girls

[Pete Martell]

I guess it's all perspective, I felt like Rowena was more of the same they've been trotting around since S1. She's another Meg or Ruby in my mind. Another one-note snarky woman who can kick ass at times, but mostly stands around quipping at everyone. Maybe she'll turn into a character of substance, but at this point she seems pretty basic to me. For me, it's not whether they live or die in the end, it's what they do while they're here.

 

Meg (especially the first Meg) and Bela were both highly sexualized, as was Ruby after Gen got the role. There was also heavy emphasis with Bela and Ruby on whether they were superior to Dean and/or Sam - tougher, smarter. This meant they were always defined by Dean and Sam, and fans punished them for it. There was also free reign for viewers to cheer them being called whore/slut/skank/bitch/et al.

 

Having a somewhat older woman who isn't sexualized and isn't there to be in competition with Dean and Sam opens the door for different types of storytelling, if the show bothers to try it, or to have her as something beyond Crowley's mummy.

[Zanne]

...I think Cas is separated from the boys because of Destiel shipping.

 

 

I'm afraid they have them separated because the evil plan is to spin-off Cole into the new Supernatural series that was unable to come to fruition with Bloodlines. Cas will be his partner/co-pilot, the angelic Bobby to inform him of what he doesn't know since he's a newbie to the hunting business.

[catrox14]

I don't think Cas will get spun off. Didn't TPTB say that Cas couldn't lead a spin-off? I think it was Ben Edlund that was a fan of the Dean/Cas dynamic in whatever form.

[Pete Martell]

Edlund barely wrote for Dean/Cas in his last 2 years with the show - he almost went out of his way to avoid writing for them, it seemed like.

 

I think Carver is a big fan of their dynamic, but I do think the fans who get upset about TFW being together, and all the fans who insist Dean and Cas must be a couple or it's homophobic queerbaiting have likely caused interaction between them to heavily decline.

 

Mark Pedowitz said no SPN characters could support a spinoff.

[rue721]

The good: Hannah's gone; Cole's gone; and Dean got a steak.

The bad: the actress playing Rowena is trying way to hard, IMO.

The ugly: For all that "story", my God was it boring.

 

Rowena was just not working for me, and sadly, I do think it's that the actress was trying to broadcast everything to the cheap seats. I actually found that last scene between Rowena and Crowley very awkward.

 

Crowley's dumbass yelling makes him look impotent as King of Hell, imo, he sounds like a high school varsity coach after a losing game. I wish they would pan to whatever character he's yelling at, like the road worker this time, and have that character be wearing a blank "I'm getting yelled at" face and just tonelessly saying "yes, sir." It seems like the show is sort of going with the story that the people/demons in Hell are getting contemptuous of Crowley, so maybe Crowley seeming like such a loser works in that way, but that also takes so much of the threat out of Hell and out of all the "Knight of Hell," etc, stuff.

 

Rowena imo had kind of the opposite of Crowley's problem, in that she didn't seem able to bluster at all. When she was saying, "cat got your tongue?" she sounded like she didn't even know if that was supposed to be mocking or what, she was just stumbling through the lines, and sounded so unsure. I didn't hear any malice or anything there. The whole episode, she was on the one hand very stage-y and theatrical in how she was saying things, but on the other hand, it felt to me like there was no actual emotion coming from her, like she was performing everything in a language she didn't really speak that well.

 

I did appreciate that they decided to make Crowley's mom and Abaddon look so much alike, though, that kind of cracks me up.

 

Sure the hookers got their licks in, so to speak. But they ended up dead anyway, so what is the message here? It's pointless to fight back? If you fight back but die anyway it's noble? 

 

[...]

 

My biggest problem was the abusive demon pimp was Latino. Ooff. Really show? Hell I guess I should be glad it wasn't the black guy that was the pimp. 

 

I think that the message with the prostitutes was just that they did value their own lives, that they each had a POV. I think that was part of the theme of the episode in general, with Hannah deciding her vessel has the right to her own life, and with Dean talking to Cole about choosing the life that's best for *him* instead of blindly dedicating it to avenging his father.

 

One of my favorite things in that vein, actually, was Sam reading Shaylene's texts and telling Dean that they were ridiculous and "too good to be true," and then being proven right, and those texts turning out to be an act she was being forced to play (and the texts being so OTT being a way for her to actually let him know that she was a prostitute and not actually trying to hook up with him for her own sake). I also liked that when the pimp was insulting Shaylene, she was basically like, "fuck this," and just stabbed him. I guess it wasn't practical or cold-blooded of her to do that, but I liked that she actually reacted to that treatment and defended herself, instead of doing what it seems like so many of the (esp. female) characters do and just sitting there taking it like it didn't matter to her to be torn down like that. And her reaction to the stabbing, too -- I liked that in general, the human women weren't villainized and it was only the "bad guys" who treated them like trash. After so many years of hearing "whore" etc getting thrown around in the dialogue, it was good to hear that kind of thing coming out of the *villains'* mouths rather than the heroes'. (Also, I didn't think it was a bad thing that everyone was disgusted by the idea of forcing women into prostitution. Even in the grand scheme of horrible things that people go through, imo being forced into sexual slavery *is* an exceptionally horrible one, even as relatively common as it is).

 

I didn't think it was adolescent that things didn't always break the women's way. Things did go their way enough times that overall it felt more like "you win some, you lose some" to me and not like, "don't even bother fighting back, you'll lose, woman!" There have been episodes in the past where I have felt like they've leaned toward the latter message (I assume inadvertently), by portraying all the women either as POV-less background decoration or as villains who then are ruthlessly exterminated, so I thought this was an improvement. 

 

I agree, though, that the episode overall had a strangely adolescent feel to it, especially the first half. It was sort of reminding me of Dr. Who?! I don't know what it was, something just felt very "old school teen drama" about it all. The visuals/direction being so light and bright probably didn't help tbh. Nor did the super campy villain imo.

 

W/r/t the pimp being Latino, I did think that was...uncomfortable, imo mostly because while on the one hand, I noticed that they *did* seem to have more actors who are POC in speaking parts than usual (the black waiter and road worker are also who I'm thinking of), none of them were in sympathetic roles (and all of them were men). The sympathetic roles imo were the prostitutes, Hannah's husband, and Cole. Idk if they specifically wanted all the prostitutes to be played by white women or what. If they actually wanted more diverse casting, imo it would have made sense to cast Shaylene with an actress who's a WOC. I liked the actress who actually did play Shaylene, I thought she did a pretty fantastic job given what she had to work with tbh, but if they were consciously trying to diversify the cast a bit (which it seemed to me that they maybe were) then she would have been the part I would have changed. YMMV.

 

Also, since the only time I remember dragons being on the show is when those dragons were kidnapping virgins in an episode a long while back, it would kind of make sense for then to make Raul-the-namesake-of-the-TWoP-dragon a pimp, js!

 

I don't think the showrunners hate women, but I think some of them have little respect or understanding for women. If they did they would allow for more diverse portrayals of women, wouldn't repeatedly bring back longtime popular female characters just for shock value deaths, and wouldn't continue to use slurs that made some of the actresses (like Alaina Huffman) uncomfortable. 

 

I don't know if they think more women = strong women (last week's episode had 4 women and they weren't written as being strong), but I do think they have responded to the criticism by trying to diversify a little. For instance, Kate and her sister got the sibling angst parallels men usually get. Rowena is a little different for the show. You have attempts to write a POV for some of the hookup characters, like Ann-Marie in the season premiere. 

 

One of the problems is these women are still written within a narrow perspective. Even if Ann-Marie stood up for herself, we still last saw her with Demon Dean calling her a skank. Hannah made so many brave choices, yet she will likely be remembered for throwing herself at Cas. Rowena still has to be someone's mother. 

 

I actually liked that last scene between Demon!Dean and Ann Marie, because it did sound so *ugly* when he called her a skank, he did it specifically to hurt her and imo it was very hurtful, and I liked that she straight up said she didn't deserve that and left. I also liked that she called him out on him beating her ex for *himself* rather than "for" her. I think that kind of ugliness sometimes makes sense as part of the show (like in that scene) and don't mind seeing it in that context -- if it's *acknowledged* as ugliness and not just treated as a "ho hum, misogynistic slurs are just part of the tapestry of life!" kind of thing, as though it's nbd.

 

There's this essay I read a while back that talked about how to differentiate between whether a work of art is obscene or not, and the writer's idea was that if someone's degradation is shown from the perspective of the person doing the degrading, and the person being degraded in't granted her own POV, then the material is obscene, but if the same degradation is shown with the person being degraded granted a POV (or from that person's POV), then it isn't necessarily obscene. I think the essay writer's point was that if the person being degraded was denied a POV or reaction, that she was being dehumanized within the material, and that the dehumanization was the obscenity. UGH that's probably really inarticulate, sorry. Anyway, my point is, I actually am fine with the show "going there" in terms of showing people in really pretty horrible or degrading situations, *as long* as they're treated as human beings that have their own perspectives/needs/etc. It's when they're treated as objects or when we're expected to enjoy their degradation that it really bothers me. Like, I don't mind at all if some character throws misogynistic trash into a female character's face, and the female character reacts in a plausible way that shows she has her own perspective and isn't just a misogyny-receptical. So when the pimp starts tearing Shaylene down and she flips out and stabs him or when Demon!Dean calls Ann Marie a skank and she is hurt and tells him she doesn't deserve that, I think that's a fine (if relatively dark) place for the show to go. I do mind when Dean calls someone a whore or puts some other misogynistic crap out there, and the show/scene's tone makes it seem like we're supposed to be on his side or feeling no empathy for the person he's treating like that, or even when there's nobody else on screen calling him on it/reacting poorly to it, though.

 

That said, I also am fine with stuff like Dean not realizing that Shaylene's texts aren't normal and that she's trying to let him know she's a prostitute, it's not that I think ignorance is necessarily offensive or anything. I actually think that it's in-character for him to be out of touch about social stuff like that (I mean like how a dating site works, or how people actually trying to hook up or date for real would talk to each other on one). I even appreciated that he was kind of a dork about it. It seems in the last few episodes that they're actually bringing back that Dean's kind of dorky in this oddly out-of-touch/old man way, which had long been one of my favorite things about the character, so I'm loving that stuff. I miss the character from wayyyyyy back when who would hear Ronald talking about the mandroid and get all of his references and actually like/respect the dude, so I've been liking moments like when Dean was getting all het up about Sam not respecting classic rock in FanFiction or him now being a putz about putting up a dating profile. "Just monster stuff." LOL. Maybe it's corny, but that *lack* of slickness is the sort of thing that's always been charming to me about the show in general. I like when the characters and their world are drawn to a more human (rather than EPIC!!1!) scale.

 

Anyway, I don't think that a man who looks like JA would ever have any trouble catching a woman's eye, but I agree with everyone above who's saying they can't really see Dean enjoying a (physical) "meat market" kind of scene right now because of the social aspect of it. Tbh I think he'd do *worse* on a site like Plenty of Fish than at a bar, because he's this drifter whose pictures are all probably "smolder-y," which ime a lot of women would probably find corny/weird in the context of a dating site. But doing "worse" for him is still going to be pretty good, I mean come on. Anyway, these guys travel all over the place constantly, I didn't think it was weird that he'd think, "oh, this woman and I can meet up at that place with the good/cheap steak, it's right near her." Well, weird for a regular person, because who asks to meet someone for a date or an assignation at like, the best Sizzler in a five hour radius of their house or whatever, and then TAKES THEIR BROTHER TO THE RESTAURANT WITH THEM (?!) (and actually sits down to a dinner beforehand? wouldn't you eat with the woman and not your brother?), but not weird for Dean.

 

Tbh, I liked how a lot of that was handled -- I also liked that when he and Shaylene were back at the hotel, they didn't go the route of her just offering to do him because he's so hot or whatever, and that evidently, he just asked her about what was going on and called Sam so they could help her and the other women the demons were pimping out. It might be because I'm a huge sap, but I really like when the Winchesters are just good people straight up trying to do the right thing, so I honestly appreciated that.

 

ETA:  Grammar, typos...hopefully this comment is easier to read now!

Edited November 26, 2014 by rue721

[Pete Martell]

I agree with you about Ann-Marie, and the show acknowledging when Dean (in this case demon Dean) crosses the line. I feel like sometimes the message are just too mixed and it seems like grandstanding or faux-progressiveness, like when they had Ruby attack Dean and tell him not to call her a bitch, only to ultimately have the narrative prove Dean right. 

 

I guess at least Ann-Marie did get to leave with dignity.

[Demented Daisy]

I actually liked that last scene between Demon!Dean and Ann Marie, because it did sound so *ugly* when he called her a skank, he did it specifically to hurt her and imo it was very hurtful, and I liked that she straight up said she didn't deserve that and left.

 

 

Unfortunately, what she said was, "Yeah, see, I'm so screwed up myself, I'm gonna walk out of here thinking I actually deserve that."  But at least she did walk out.

[rue721]

Unfortunately, what she said was, "Yeah, see, I'm so screwed up myself, I'm gonna walk out of here thinking I actually deserve that."  But at least she did walk out.

 

I heard that as her saying that not only did she not deserve to be called a skank, but that she must be screwed up to have not have realized that how he was treating her wasn't normal or OK until he was doing something as *obviously* appalling as lying in bed calling her a skank to her face, and that, even more screwed up that, even after he'd crossed the line in such an obvious and explicit way, she still was only going because she knew in her head that it wasn't OK for someone to treat her like that, not because she felt in her heart that she deserved better.*** It actually sort of reminded me of the Soulless Sam thing; how, without a soul, Sam had zero instincts for how people should treat each other -- but his lack of instincts tended to lead him astray in the opposite way as Ann Marie's lack of instincts did (not that hers were due to soullessness, too, just from being screwed up), and led him to treat others badly (as opposed to accepting bad treatment from others). Anyway, I thought that was actually a really sympathetic and touching way for Ann Marie to put it, and also emphasized that she wasn't with Demon!Dean because *she* was bad, it was because she had this screwed up idea that she deserved to be treated badly. YMMV though, I think it's open to interpretation and there's not one right answer.

 

I did appreciate the show's lack of judgment/approbation toward Ann Marie for being with (evil) Demon!Dean, and I also liked how the women in this episode (or anybody in this episode in general, including Cole) weren't assumed guilty by association, it seemed like everyone was being judged on her own merits. Shaylene wasn't assumed to be bad because she was being pimped out by a bad guy, the women that Rowena "saved" weren't assumed to be bad because they were being tempted and used by Rowena, Cole wasn't assumed to be a monster because his father (or his father's killer) was, etc. I really noticed it when Sam couldn't bring himself to shoot the woman who'd been spelled to be a guard dog -- I think the show was making a point about how each person should have the power to make her own choices and it wasn't right to judge someone based on the choices others have made for her. That's also why it had (imo) a lot of impact at the end when Dean said he was basically fated to hunt until he was killed and didn't have any choices left.

 

***Speaking of, though, something else that I liked about that scene was how disgusted Demon!Dean seemed with *himself* as he called her that. I don't even know what that was about, really, since it felt like the show ultimately spent about ten not-that-insightful-anyway seconds on that whole demon storyline and I still don't really understand what him being a demon meant or what was going on in his head during that time or anything. But I thought it was an interesting touch, and actually added some realism to the scene in general.

[catrox14]

I had a different viewpoint of demon!Dean's comments about sleeping with skanks.  He never actually called her a skank in that episode.  He said 

 

DEAN: The kind of guy who sleeps with every skank in every small-town dive that he passes through? Well, you really do know how to read people, 'cause that sure as hell sounds like me.

ANNEMARIE:

Now, see? I'm so screwed up myself I'm gonna walk out of here thinking I actually deserved that.

 

I thought that was totally about Dean loathing himself and trying to hurt her at the same time. I thought he was saying that he was the kind of guy that only skanks would hang out with so he was dragging himself down right along with her. 

 

So to me, I didn't think Ann Marie had all that much self esteem for her to say that about herself.  Does that make her stronger than the hookers here?  I'm not  so sure.  But at least she had enough agency to walk away from him. 

Edited November 27, 2014 by catrox14

[NoWillToResist]

I don't understand the scene where Cas looks up Jimmy Novak on the internet.

 

I mean, basically, he IS Jimmy Novak, so what does he hope to find by googling Jimmy? Is he trying to find Amelia and Claire after all the Hannah/vessel business? If so, he knows where Jimmy used to live, so why not just go there? If the wife and daughter have moved, Cas won't be able to find them using Jimmy's name anyway since Jimmy isn't in their lives, and hasn't been for, what, five years?

 

If TPTB are wanting us to know that the Novaks are on his mind, why not have Cas just google "Novak, Pontiac Illiinois (or wherever Jimmy lived)"? That would let the audience know what's on Cas' mind without the weird choice to search on someone who has been missing for the past five years...

[Pete Martell]

I mean, basically, he IS Jimmy Novak, so what does he hope to find by googling Jimmy? Is he trying to find Amelia and Claire after all the Hannah/vessel business? If so, he knows where Jimmy used to live, so why not just go there? If the wife and daughter have moved, Cas won't be able to find them using Jimmy's name anyway since Jimmy isn't in their lives, and hasn't been for, what, five years?

 

He's wearing Jimmy Novak's body. He never really knew Jimmy. He kept a very specific distance. 

 

Looking up info on him to try to make that connection, instead of going to where he lived and having people come up to him shocked and saying they can't believe he's alive, etc. etc. seems easier to me.

If TPTB are wanting us to know that the Novaks are on his mind, why not have Cas just google "Novak, Pontiac Illiinois (or wherever Jimmy lived)"? That would let the audience know what's on Cas' mind without the weird choice to search on someone who has been missing for the past five years...

 

That would mostly lead to viewers saying, "Why is Cas looking up the town, instead of the person? What's he going to find - info about their nutmeg festival?"

Edited November 27, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Pete Martell]

 

***Speaking of, though, something else that I liked about that scene was how disgusted Demon!Dean seemed with *himself* as he called her that. I don't even know what that was about, really, since it felt like the show ultimately spent about ten not-that-insightful-anyway seconds on that whole demon storyline and I still don't really understand what him being a demon meant or what was going on in his head during that time or anything. But I thought it was an interesting touch, and actually added some realism to the scene in general.

 

I think the story was limited as you can't have one of your main characters as a demon for very long as he will have to go too far, but beyond that, I tend to think one of the reasons we saw him as a demon was to see that many of the same problems Dean has faced for a long time (lack of identity, isolation, anger at what "family" did to him) were still there. Even at a time that is supposed to be some type of ultimate escape, there was no escape. It's something he has to face and conquer in order to survive. 

[NoWillToResist]

He's wearing Jimmy Novak's body. He never really knew Jimmy. He kept a very specific distance. 

 

Looking up info on him to try to make that connection, instead of going to where he lived and having people come up to him shocked and saying they can't believe he's alive, etc. etc. seems easier to me.

 

Heh, good point. I hadn't thought of that potential awkwardness. :)

 

I guess I'm not understanding Cas' motivation to know more about Jimmy. He stated that taking Jimmy from his family was necessary and, unless I'm missing something, Cas' "work" is still not done, so isn't he just flirting with his "too much heart" nature by finding out more about his vessel? The more he knows about Jimmy, won't he be tempted to return him to his loved ones like Hannah?

 

I always assumed his "I just want to be an angel" line in the S9 finale was because he thought Dean was dead but now that Dean's alive, is Cas still contemplating leaving Earth?

Edited November 27, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[catrox14]

I don't understand cas' motives either. I thought Jimmy the meatsuit was long dead when Cas was exploded in Swan Song and/or when became Godstiel and/or when he was killed in s9 and resurrected by Gadzeke? I thought Cas made it clear when he was in Claire that was the end of the road for Jimmy and his family forever if he accepted Cas again.

[Pete Martell]

I think he knows Jimmy is gone. I think he feels guilty because this is the first time in a long time he's ever seen a situation where someone's actions as an angel hurts their vessel and their vessel's loved ones. I don't think he ever fully took the time to question what he did to Jimmy and Jimmy's family until what happened with Hannah's vessel.

[SueB]

There's a nutmeg festival??

I thought the search was motivated by regret only. Hannah's return was triggered by Joe's appearance and the pain Joe was obviously feeling. I think he wondered how those Jimmy left behind portrayed Jimmy. The 'missing' is a little odd because his family actually knows. But it could be the only Internet reference and the family didn't change it. No body so 'missing' is a viable status.

From a character perspective, I thought Hannah acted as an interesting comparison to Cas. How HUMAN Cas seemed. By riding around with Hannah, we got to see how Cas views the world and what his motivation is right now. Even re-powered he seems tired.

If you look at the 'rogue' Angels as his last clean-up task (from Metatron's spell), I got the impression that he (like Dean) just wants to do 'right' things.

I'm really hoping they address the souls who were stuck in the veil. Tessa committed suicide over that. I need to know Kevin is in Heaven too.

Edited November 27, 2014 by SueB

[7kstar]

I guess I'm a minority in liking Crowley's Mom.  I really enjoyed the opening, the interaction between the brothers was fun. I totally expect Sam to give Dean a hard time using a dating app.  It worked for me.

 

I liked that the girl that usually stands around to be killed at least tried to save herself and fought back.  Although the results was the same, at least she was more than some screaming woman.

 

Was it the best ep ever, no, but it did have it's moments.  Of course now Sam gets to be the one that worries about Dean lying to him.  He knows that Dean isn't okay and should realize that Dean won't come clean but neither is Sam coming clean about his difficulty of killing monsters. 

 

Maybe my viewpoint got tainted when I watched the clip about the new actors and what they thought about being on the show.  I liked their personalities...so the scenes were not so dull for me.  I see the witch as more as the character they may try to spin off than Cole, but not sure I would watch the spin off anyway.  I really watch for Jensen and the few good moments the show gives.  I thought the part with Hannah worked, at least with the results the show was aiming for.  I'm okay with Hannah being gone.  It wasn't a sit on the edge of your seat type story but it did keep my attention for a good portion of the show.  I'd give it a 5 out 10, with 10 being top.

[Pete Martell]

I guess I'm a minority in liking Crowley's Mom.  I really enjoyed the opening, the interaction between the brothers was fun. I totally expect Sam to give Dean a hard time using a dating app.  It worked for me.

 

No, I sort of liked her too. I like the possibilities of her, and the actress has a certain charisma and unique look (she reminds me of Bernadette Peters, Elaine Princi [Dorian on One Life to Live about 25 years ago], Julie Brown from Earth Girls Are Easy). At first I was annoyed, but as the episode along her bizarre trickiness grew on me. That she's very powerful and simultaneously weak and unfocused and covering it up with style is something that could really work with proper writing.

 

I also liked the episode overall. I think if they'd paced the season better this would have been stronger.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Pete Martell

[dr pepper]

I found it amusing that Raoul was the pimp.  He sure didn't look like a gay dragon.  ;-)

 

 

Oops, i missed that one. And i was so proud of myself that i figured out who Rowena was as soon as the henchdemon went to tell Crowley she was captured.

 

I miss Damian (and Raoul). Anyoneone know where he went?

[dr pepper]

I guess I'm a minority in liking Crowley's Mom.  I really enjoyed the opening, the interaction between the brothers was fun. I totally expect Sam to give Dean a hard time using a dating app.  It worked for me.

 

 

I liked her too. She's the new Endora.

[SueB]

I though it was funny that she walked around with her pinky extended. Like Crowley with his tease Cain's house. It tells me that Rowena is trying to claim a social status the she wasntborn in to. Crowley using the title of 'King' is also a sign of that pretension. As you may or may not know, you do not extend your pinky she drinking tea. The old custom was abandoned years before Rowena's time and it's a sign, back then, of someone trying to fit in, which makes it worse.

[oliverwendell]

I finally got to watch it -- I was away for the Thanksgiving weekend.  I, too, was pleasantly surprised by it.  The title and the previews actually had put me off it so much I was planning to skip it, but then I read people's comments here and decided to check it out.  

 

I was really touched by Hannah's story.  I thought it made perfect sense for her character, who's come so far in understanding what it means to be human (in a way Castiel really never has, in my opinion) that she could interpret the emotional responses of her host and respond to them with remorse and pity.  I loved the way the actress touched her abdomen when she talked about her imprisoned host, as though she were feeling her pain as a physical sensation.  And I thought she did a great job of portraying Caroline as a totally different person from Hannah.  It struck me as so sad that poor Caroline knew who Castiel was -- that she'd been watching at a remove the life Hannah had been leading with her body for an entire year.

 

I also liked the resolution of the Cole story, although I agree it was built up to be so much more by the writers and producers before the season started that it felt undercooked.  The actor did a good job in his scene with Ackles -- and boy, Jensen really sold it.  That moment where Cole asks how he can believe Dean, and Dean just looks at him, and Cole reads the truth right there in his face, was amazing.  Although I did think the writers missed a good opportunity to play with the Mark there:  shouldn't the Mark have been urging Dean to kill Cole?  I thought it would have been interesting to see Dean fight against that compulsion, and do the right thing despite it.  But maybe since he'd just killed a couple of demons the Mark was temporarily sated.

 

Just to weigh in on the discussion about the female characters:  I agree that the prostitutes were given much more depth than I would have expected from this show (thank you, Robert Berens), but I thought having the blonde be such a ditz and the brunette be the smarter, stronger one was a terrible cliche that could easily have been avoided.  And I'm not even blonde.

 

Loved Rowena.  She's wackily evil and the actress' speech patterns, while off-putting at first, really grew on me.  I'm looking forward to her interactions with Crowley.

 

Can Cas come back to the bunker now?  Oh, he's not, is he?  He's going to go running around after the Novaks.  Sigh.  How did he get an internet connection in his car, by the way?  Is that angel mojo, or do Caroline and Joe not password-protect their network??

Edited November 30, 2014 by fourteenwords

[gazebo]

I think the writers decided to wrap up the Hannah/Castiel road trip storyline because they must've realize it wasn't popular and doesn't seem to be getting any where.  It was moving when Hannah told Castiel how she felt and she decided to leave Caroline's body because of her compassion.  That was one of the rare happy endings on this show.  Loved how Caroline's husband accepted her back into the house without saying a word.  I guess any kind of happy ending on this show moves me because there is so little of it.

 

I can't believe Cole totally bought what Dean was saying.  I think anyone else would've just say something like "You're a liar!  I'm going to beat you to the ground for saying all this shit about my dad!".  However, the actor that played Cole kinda sold it that he believed Dean.  I can only think that Cole must've suspected long ago that there was something wrong with his father before Dean killed him and he just repressed those feelings and channeled all his anger and hate to Dean Winchester.  Wow!  That storyline wrapped up real fast!

 

Rowena and the prostitutes storyline was a little interesting to me.  I couldn't stand Rowena's accent and it took me a little while to get use to her speaking.  LOLed when Crowley looked at Rowena and said "Mother?"  So cool!

 

I felt sad for Dean when he told Cole that he thinks he'll die violently one day.  I think Dean really believes that because of all the things that he's done when he was a demon.  I hope Sam stays vigilant and watches over Dean if Dean gets reckless.

[catrox14]

I always find tha upon rewatch I get so much more out of episodes when I usually come away with a big meh the first viewing. I think it's because I focus on the performances more than the plot which covers up a lot of the warts of plot and story.

 

That final scene with Dean, Cole and Sam is even more moving and powerful upon rewatch. As has been mentioned there is so much being said by Dean to Cole but really for Sam, but  what I realized this time is Sam was also saying something to Dean with the speech to Cole about "You've got a family.  Their gonna need you to come back...whole". But I don't think Dean has come back whole and I don't think Sam believes he has either.  I think Jared did a great job reacting to Dean's words.   I honestly felt for the first time since well almost ever a deep and profound concern for Dean and the look on Sam's face told me he's really wondering still if he's going to have to kill Dean.  It actually felt a lot like when Dean was carrying around the Save Sammy or Kill Sam secret from John in s2. I think this is morphing into Sam's 'Save Dean or Kill Dean' moment/arc.

 

Ever since Soul Survivor I've questioned whether Dean is still a demon or not. And that's because Jensen has IMO made a great choice to not take Dean back to 100%regular!Dean or even MoC!Dean or depressed!Dean. And that final scene highlighted even more what I see in Jensen's work.

 

There is something internally different in what Jensen is doing with post-demon!Dean. I can't put my finger on it, but there is tone and manner that comes across to me as a deeply held certainty that Dean IS beyond saving now and that Dean has been deciding what to do about it since he was de-demoned. There was an ambiguity on Dean's face at the end of Soul Survivor that has stayed with me and IMO has informed Jensen's performance.  It's not just Dean being sad, or having a guilty conscience about what he did as a demon. It's not even a matter of a thought or belief in Dean's mind that he is beyond saving. To me it's coming across as a forgone conclusion...that Dean absolutely KNOWS his fate and that it is an immutable and unchangeable event vs when Dean is overrun with guilt or depression and feeling worthless. IMO even the way Jensen physically carries himself as post-demon!Dean is a little different. It's kind of a weird confidence that is different from Dean's confidence/swagger walk if that makes any sense. The look on his face and the way he turned away from Sam and walked down the alley was filled with this whatever it is I'm perceiving. 

 

And just to reiterate that last shot of them walking down that alley flooded in red with Dean ahead of Sam was a work of art. It actually brought a tear to my eye, because it made me feel like Dean is still really alone and despite Sam's best efforts to save him, that Dean might really most sincerely be beyond saving. It felt like Dean was walking into Hell. And Sam was a interesting distance away that was far enough behind to kill him, or to just not be able to stop him OR  run and catch up if he wants to go down fighting with Dean. That shot should be the new cover photo for the second half of the season.

[SueB]

 

It's not even a matter of a thought or belief in Dean's mind that he is beyond saving. To me it's coming across as a forgone conclusion...that Dean absolutely KNOWS his fate and that it is an immutable and unchangeable event vs when Dean is overrun with guilt or depression and feeling worthless. IMO even the way Jensen physically carries himself as post-demon!Dean is a little different. It's kind of a weird confidence that is different from Dean's confidence/swagger walk if that makes any sense. The look on his face and the way he turned away from Sam and walked down the alley was filled with this whatever it is I'm perceiving.

To the Dean thread!....

[La Tortuga]

My biggest problem was the abusive demon pimp was Latino. Ooff. Really show? Hell I guess I should be glad it wasn't the black guy that was the pimp. 

 

I'm Latina. It didn't bother me that one of the pimps was Hispanic, or that the Hispanic pimp was the abusive one. He was playing a vessel for a demon, not César Chavez. This show has had a Latino leviathan, a Vietnamese prophet, black angels, and a black Jewish hunter. Just in this episode we saw white demons, angels, witch(es), and victims, a black demon, and a black waiter/witness. Clearly the show proposes that exploitation can come from or happen to anyone. I'm pleased the only Hispanic actor of the episode was cast as a person of even minor power instead of a jizz-mopping, underpaid janitor out of focus in the background.

[catrox14]

So I have a bone(r )to pick. Since when is Dean judgmental about sex workers? And since when does t he pay for ass? He's taken Cas to a brothel and he clearly has availed himself of the services. He pays strippers for lap dances. He pays for online porn! I fanwank Dean was feeling duped vs suddenly being averse to paying for sex.

Edited December 2, 2014 by catrox14

[SueB]

Technically we have never seen Dean pay for intercourse personally. I don't think its a judgement AGAINST someone who is a sex worker, I think he sees it differently than dancers or porn. And Cas had one night and Dean was on a mission. Having said this, it's possible Dean has paid for sex in the past. Maybe it wasn't what he was looking for. Or maybe, as you said, he just felt stupid for being duped and wanted out.

As soon as she said 'soul', however, I think his whole perspective shifted.

I also thought the actress playing Shaylene did a good job. In the restaurant she seemed happy. In the hotel she seemed at first like she was rushing a bit, then like she was trying to recover the situation, and finally downright brittle.

[catrox14]

No technically we've never seen him pay for intercourse and he probably wouldn't have to but I don't think he would be opposed to it. So that's why it really bugged me.  He said he didn't pay for ass before she even mentioned about it being his soul.

 

I think the actress was the Fancy Lady from a previous season

Edited December 2, 2014 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

Oh, I definitely thought it was mainly because Dean was feeling duped. To me, it wasn't that she was a hooker, but that she had been pretending not to be one. Dean seemed similarly put off a bit with the woman who complimented him in "Sin City" - with Dean thinking that it was because he prevented the murder - but then when he showed interest in her, asked him for $200 to leave with her and implied that it was a bargain from her usual fee.

 

So even though, as SueB says, we don't see Dean paying for a sex worker, I think he might likely be fine if it's not a con as to what they are. In a brothel, there are no airs as to what's going on, no con involved. In the same episode I mentioned above ("Sin City") where Dean was put off by the sex worker in the bar, he seemed quite interested in the prostitute beckoning him from the car - until Sam dragged him away. I would hope Dean was observant enough to know that was a prostitute.

Edited December 2, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[SueB]

I agree. I also think your right about the fancy lady.

[DittyDotDot]

I can't believe Cole totally bought what Dean was saying.  I think anyone else would've just say something like "You're a liar!  I'm going to beat you to the ground for saying all this shit about my dad!".  However, the actor that played Cole kinda sold it that he believed Dean.  I can only think that Cole must've suspected long ago that there was something wrong with his father before Dean killed him and he just repressed those feelings and channeled all his anger and hate to Dean Winchester.  Wow!  That storyline wrapped up real fast!

 

Heh, I was commenting to someone the other day about how this storyline was way to neat and tidily wrapped up for this show. I felt like Cole decided to give up his life-long quest for vengeance simply because Dean Winchester looked deep into his eyes and told him it was a good idea. I realize Dean can have that effect on people, but seriously that was really, really easy. I don't trust it. I think there's got to more to it and this won't be the last we hear of Cole.

[rue721]

Heh, I was commenting to someone the other day about how this storyline was way to neat and tidily wrapped up for this show. I felt like Cole decided to give up his life-long quest for vengeance simply because Dean Winchester looked deep into his eyes and told him it was a good idea. I realize Dean can have that effect on people, but seriously that was really, really easy. I don't trust it. I think there's got to more to it and this won't be the last we hear of Cole.

 

The dumb thing is that Cole is already a soldier, maybe even a mercenary. I mean as his job. So if he stops hunting, what's he going to do, go back to being a soldier and possibly a mercenary?

[Wynne88]

It was a small thing, but I really liked it when during the confrontation with Cole, Dean told Sam to put his gun down, and (after a short hesitation) Sam did.  I was expecting Sam to demand that Cole put his down first, and I think that the fact that he didn't conveyed a great deal of faith in his brother's judgement.

[La Tortuga]

I couldn't tell if Cole was brought back because the network is still angling for a spinoff, or if the producers combed through the message boards and decided nobody liked that storyline and it needed to be tied up and closed. (The fact that they seem to have cut off the Hannah/Cas story suggests an in-house cleanup, but I really have no idea how far in advance they filmed this episode.)

[Pete Martell]

I think they planned the stuff with Hannah and Cas all along, as there were spoilers about it early this season, and it's part of Cas' quest for identity. It just felt rushed. 

 

Cole - who knows. I can't imagine they wrapped it up because of fan negativity, because that episode was likely filmed around the time the episodes were first airing or about to air. I think they may have always intended the story to wrap up when it did, especially since I don't believe Cole is gone for good, and they'll have a lot of time to fill in the back half of the season. I kind of wonder if they may have originally planned to have Dean kill him, thus adding more angst and guilt and a feeling that you can't change who you are.

[SueB]

Reading various interviews and paying attention to timelines (like when Guy Norman Bee was directing 10.09), I feel fairly confident in saying that 1-9 were done independent of fan reaction.  The ONLY "spin" I heard was multiple assurances that the Mark of Cain story was not over.  I think that's fairly evident in the stories we've seen thus far but many have reacted negatively to "The Year of the Deamon" being more like 'The Three Weeks of the Deanmon'.  Which is 100% on the CW promo department (along with the atrocious mislead for THIS 'Girls, Girls, Girls' episode) vice the TPTB.

Edited December 3, 2014 by SueB

[millennium]

 I couldn't stand Rowena's accent and it took me a little while to get use to her speaking. 

 

 

She's a Scottish actress playing a Scottish witch, so ...

 

Personally, I found her accent enchanting.

 

Whether intentionally or not, this episode strongly suggested it's time for Castiel to cash in his chips and follow Hannah back to heaven, never to return.

 

I think the show would be better without him at this point.

 

I like this post-demonic, self-aware Dean.   He seems more solid than ever.

[Bruinsfan]

Also, how great were all the little nods to forced prostitution being dark/distasteful even for demons? Way to set a bar for evil on your show. These characters have all been to the literal Hell, right?

I remember back in Season 3 when we got a brief glimpse of Hell as a vast abyss where Dean was being torn apart by a spiderweb of chains and hooks. Now it's someone's poorly lit basement with decoration by Hot Topic and a bunch of corporate flunkies kissing ass. (Likewise, our first look at Purgatory was an otherworldy sunless forest of black thorns haunted by the bestial ghosts of slain monsters, scary enough that an angel was worried to be there. Later it became some hiking trail in a public park where people with plastic fangs would occasionally jump out from behind a tree.)

 

Only on Supernatural would Dean be expected to pay for sex, right?

Frankly I could see him making a comfortable living being paid for it. He has the looks, the charm, and the chameleon-esque con man skills to be a top-of-the-line gigolo.

 

I know there will be a lot of hate for the episode next week and people will say Jody and Donna should die and this show is about the brothers. 

Thankfully that hasn't been the case. But both the writing and the acting seems to improve dramatically when Sheriff Mills is around.

 

I mean, basically, he IS Jimmy Novak, so what does he hope to find by googling Jimmy? Is he trying to find Amelia and Claire after all the Hannah/vessel business? If so, he knows where Jimmy used to live, so why not just go there? If the wife and daughter have moved, Cas won't be able to find them using Jimmy's name anyway since Jimmy isn't in their lives, and hasn't been for, what, five years?

The last we heard, Amelia and Claire were in hiding after demons tried to use them to strike against Castiel. I'd assume they would be pretty hard to find without using supernatural methods.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Bruinsfan

[RulerofallIsurvey]

While not as fun as the last two episodes, this still wasn't as bad as some previous ones.  I wouldn't necessarily skip it on a rewatch, but I don't think it's one I would seek out to watch again - unless I couldn't remember something specifically.  

• There were lots of good Sam and Dean scenes in between the boring angel scenes and only slightly-less boring hell scenes.  And how sad is that really?  Philosophically speaking anyway; that hell is less boring than angels?  Only this show could make angels boring.  Honestly.  And after there have historically been so many interesting angels on film.  Sigh.  But I digress.  The good news is that Hannah is gone!  Whoot!  
  • But wait - that part bothers me.  If Caroline or Connie or Clown College Colette or who ever it was, wanted her life back, isn't all she had to do was tell the angel to get out?  I thought angels couldn't occupy without consent.  Kind of like having a valid lease, I guess.  (Whereas demons are squatters - crack-house squatters at that.)  But the rightful landlord still has the right to revoke the lease at any time, I thought.   
• Me thinks Sam was a wee bit jealous of Dean in the restaurant, eh?  Although, he did have a good point about the trucker named Bruce.  
  • Boy, they made me crave steak, too.
  • And don't ever do that weird voice again, Sam.
• Hahahaha!  Boy, did Shaylene pick the wrong guy to try to get to sell his soul, huh?  Or maybe the right guy, depending on how you look at it.  Will guys really sell theirs souls just for sex?  I think Richard Gere got off cheaper than that in Pretty Woman, and he got a whole weekend out of it.  
  • And was I the only one who expected her to say "a token" after " a trifle"?
  • She caved pretty quick when asked if she really enjoyed her job.  If she was forced into prostitution, I can't believe she'd come clean that quickly.
• Why is Roweena recruiting hookers for students?  Roweena, honey, go on out to Denver, find a hippy-trippy head shop (it ain't hard these days) and I'm sure you won't have any problem getting women to sign up.  
  • Wait.  She's been hiding out for 300 years and Just Now decides to start a new coven?  I know some people are slow to act, but that's just crazy.
  • Felt sorry for the blonde one who got the attack dog spell.  She was a ditz, but she seemed pretty nice.
• Oh, look, Cole showed up again.  yippee.  I was just thinking he was the only thing this episode was missing.  (not.)  That sure was quick.  Has he not been home this whole time he's been on his revenge mission?  Wow.  Feel sorry for his wife and kid.
  • Okay, and I know this is probably wrong of me, but I was kind of rooting for Cole during Dean vs. Cole II.  I mean, the first time, Dean was a demon, so yeah, he should have beat the crap out of Cole.  But this time?  Wasn't Cole supposed to be Special Ops or something?  I know Dean is a bad-ass hunter, but no way he should be able to best a Special Ops guy.  No way.  
  • But other than the Special Ops thing, I didn't want Cole to win.
• Ah, another BAM (brotherly angst moment) to end on.  Of course!  Where else would the show put them?  Couldn't possibly have it in the beginning or middle.  They might have time to work on it if they did that, and we sure don't want that, now do we?

And that's it?  Not as many Sam and Dean scenes as I thought.  Huh.  Maybe it's just the ones they were in were so good that it helped carry me through the boring stuff.  :)

[Dobian]

I was saying "Mother" before Crowley even mouthed the word.

[rue721]

This is an underrated episode imo. I enjoy it every time I watch it.

My favorite scenes: 

The teaser. Even though I have to cover my eyes before the demon snaps the woman's neck, I really liked how they had her do the stupid "trip right in front of a psycho killer" thing, but then it turned out she had tripped because her heel broke, and so she picked up the broken heel and shoved it right into the psycho killer's EYE! Wow. That is a big fat WOW. Very gory but very cool.

Sam making fun of Dean's online dating profile and his "steamy" texts. Then how silly it was that it turned out Dean had chosen to meet the girl there because that restaurant has the best rock-bottom-price steak around, that they were meeting there at lunchtime rather than dinner, and that Dean brought Sam along and then ATE LUNCH WITH HIM before meeting the girl right there at the restaurant. And somehow, that just cracks me up because while it's incredibly silly, I actually can buy that Dean would do that. And ordinarily, with those looks, he'd probably get away with it, too!

The scene of Dean figuring out that the girl was a prostitute, and getting pimped out by a demon. The actress did a really great job, and that's what made the scene work, imo. I also like that when they found out that's what was happening, that Dean called Sam and they were going to take care of it.

That poor girl turning into an attack dog, and Sam not really knowing how to handle it. I felt so terrible for that girl.

Rowena was a lot of fun. I don't remember whether I enjoyed her yet way back when this episode first aired (probably not, tbh), but I have since warmed up to her in any case -- so I enjoyed looking back and seeing her introduction again (now that my perspective on her has changed).

[nara]

On 11/25/2014 at 11:48 PM, Pete Martell said:

Berens said that wasn't the original title, that they changed it. I can't remember what the original was.

 

 

On 11/26/2014 at 0:32 AM, Slovenly Muse said:

Really? That's amazing. I wonder what title they had that "Girls, Girls, Girls" was considered an improvement!  I mean, could they find a more off-colour title for an episode that was (sort of?) about women being forced into prostitution?

Late to this party, but according to IMDB, the original title was Let Her Go , which would have worked with the prostitute story and the Hannah/Caroline story. It was changed due to the popularity of Let it Go from Frozen. Not sure if the original title was based on the song Let Her Go, but maybe they had trouble finding another song name to fit the episode...

On 9/1/2016 at 9:03 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

.  

• But wait - that part bothers me.  If Caroline or Connie or Clown College Colette or who ever it was, wanted her life back, isn't all she had to do was tell the angel to get out?  I thought angels couldn't occupy without consent.  Kind of like having a valid lease, I guess.  (Whereas demons are squatters - crack-house squatters at that.)  But the rightful landlord still has the right to revoke the lease at any time, I thought.   

I think that Caroline genuinely welcomed the angel into her body and wanted to support the angels getting back into heaven. She would never have kicked Hannah out. But that doesn't mean she didn't feel a sense of loss over her old life. That pain was exacerbated when they saw her husband and his continued grief at the loss of his wife. (I wonder if they had a spat before Caroline accepted Hannah, and she just assumed he wouldn't miss her. I can't remember if we heard how Hannah got her vessel.) I actually really liked the Castiel/Hannah storyline (yes, I know I am the only one) and I thought that relationship was headed somewhere. However, the abrupt ending made sense too and was a good reminder of the fact that vessels had made real sacrifices. It also showed how quickly Hannah gained her humanity.

On 9/12/2016 at 7:58 PM, Dobian said:

I was saying "Mother" before Crowley even mouthed the word.

I was thinking wife.

[Dobian]

On ‎11‎/‎28‎/‎2014 at 11:27 AM, dr pepper said:

 

I liked her too. She's the new Endora.

Agnes Morehead so would have rocked it on this show.  I would have looked forward to her nicknames for the Winchesters, and regularly turning them into things like goats and donkeys for entertainment.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Dobian

[DittyDotDot]

32 minutes ago, Dobian said:

Agnes Morehead so would have rocked it on this show.  I would have looked forward to her nicknames for the Winchesters, and regularly turning them into things like goats and donkeys for entertainment.

HA!! Now I want this to happen regularly... . ;)

[bettername2come]

Impala67 and Sam's teasing rant will always be funny to me. Soul for sex is either an insanely high price or you're dealing with crazy people and should probably get out of their as quickly as possible. I kind of love that Sam and Dean tried to save women forced into prostitution. Damn, go Shaylene. I kind of ship Castiel and Hannah. That can never go well. Wait, did Rowena just call the grand coven "utter fannies?" Way to get one by the censors. "They'll be fine. Workers' Comp and all that." Nice work from the Caroline/Hannah actress. She played the transition nicely. Poor blonde prostitutes. I like the confrontation between Cole and Dean, and I especially like Dean stopping Sam from hurting him. Dean saying he's beyond saving makes me sad. I like Rowena. I like Crowley's opinion about the sex trade being tacky. It certainly seems beneath him. 

[Hanahope]

It seemed like the Cole story got wrapped up a bit too quickly.  I'm not sure I get that he just accepted what Dean said without actual proof.

Glad to get rid of Hannah.  Her husband seemed pretty understanding accepting her back at the end after what she did to try and get rid of him.  I had thought Cas came to terms with Jimmy and vice versa some time ago.

I think I like Rowena and love that she's Crowley's mother.  The way he was looking at her, at first I thought wife, but then realized that she should have recognized him, then I couldn't remember if that was his real form or not.  Will Crowley introduce his mother to her grandchild?  the whole family can have fun, lol.

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, Hanahope said:

I think I like Rowena and love that she's Crowley's mother.  The way he was looking at her, at first I thought wife, but then realized that she should have recognized him, then I couldn't remember if that was his real form or not.  Will Crowley introduce his mother to her grandchild?  the whole family can have fun, lol.

No, Crowley is in the body of a mildly successful...I don't remember. Anyway, it's not his true form. So, yeah, she shouldn't have recognized him. 

Again, as to your last question...NO SPOILERS!! ;)

Just now, Hanahope said:

I had thought Cas came to terms with Jimmy and vice versa some time ago.

You and me both, sister! 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

No, Crowley is in the body of a mildly successful...I don't remember. Anyway, it's not his true form. So, yeah, she shouldn't have recognized him. 

Again, as to your last question...NO SPOILERS!! ;)

You and me both, sister! 

Tailor?

2 hours ago, Hanahope said:

It seemed like the Cole story got wrapped up a bit too quickly.  I'm not sure I get that he just accepted what Dean said without actual proof.

 

 

I think Cole probably accepted Dean's story because Dean basically put his life on the line to back it up by handing Cole his gun. And while Demon!Dean told Sam he let Cole live because it was more cruel than killing him, the fact remains that he *didn't* kill him, and that's all Cole knows. Plus, he's Dean F***ing Winchester, and he's a highly compelling guy. I'd buy a used car from him :)

Edited September 8, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

Crowley is in the body of a publisher or a publishing agent from New York IIRC