Jump to content
Forums forums
PRIMETIMER
Tara Ariano

S10.E07: Girls, Girls, Girls

Recommended Posts

Rowena returns and tries to recruit and train followers in the art of witchcraft, but Sam and Dean devise a plan to stop her. Meanwhile, Hannah runs into a blast from her vessel's past, which complicates things for her and Castiel.

Share this post


Link to post

This episode felt like they jammed a bunch of stuff in so they could tie up some loose ends and move on with other stuff. It was so disjointed.

I guess we were supposed to be surprised by the ending? But it seemed obvious to me. Crowley's Scottish and his mother was a witch, so when a super-old Scottish witch shows up, what am I supposed to think?

If there is ever a day when I don't laugh at Dean being splashed with holy water, take me to the hospital.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

I feel like a million things just happened.  Holy storylines.

 

That Cole resolution?  I am seriously underwhelmed.  I hope that's not it.  I feel like they left it open with his dad being a monster.  Maybe Cole is a monster too and they just don't know it?  Maybe Sam and Dean will hear word that he went home and killed his family?  There needs to be more!

 

I called that Rowena was Crowley's mother since her casting notice went out.  I even said "mother" out loud before Crowley did.  She's interesting.  I'm ready to see where they go with her.

 

I continue to be bored by Cas and Hannah.  Can't say I'm sad to see her go.  Maybe Cas can do something interesting now.  

 

Probs my least favorite episode of the season so far.  I didn't hate it.  But I'm just...eh.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Well.

- we may be done with both Cole and Hannah. Good.

- glad that Dean got to clean up the Cole mess. And he did a good job

- the CW promo monkeys could not have been more misleading. Not that his was bad, but someone ought to smash them

- I'm glad they are tackling Angel vessel consent. I like Hannah's choice.

- Rowena was interesting. 'Mother' was telegraphed. I like where that could head

And Dean, why do you bother lying to Sam? You were sincere. Just admit it.

Finally, so she was a pro. I'm glad Dean helped her out.

Edited by SueB

Share this post


Link to post

Did we really need to see yet another shot of a blonde girl running from the monster, twisting her ankle so that she gets killed?  Really show?  You are so out of ideas.

 

That shot is the reason why Joss Whedon wrote Buffy. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

The resolutions (if that's what they were) for both Hannah and Cole felt rushed and... blah. 

 

I can't imagine a universe where Dean has to drive that far to find a hot hookup.

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post

Did we really need to see yet another shot of a blonde girl running from the monster, twisting her ankle so that she gets killed?  Really show?  You are so out of ideas.

 

That shot is the reason why Joss Whedon wrote Buffy. 

 

And yet he has so many negative stereotypes of women on all of his shows and movies. I guess once the cute one-liners ran out he lost interest.

 

Berens is probably one of the more inventive writers on the show, more than Whedon has been in about 15 years. I do think it was a cliched scene. Probably trying to be a parody or whatever, I don't know. Didn't quite work.

The resolutions (if that's what they were) for both Hannah and Cole felt rushed and... blah. 

 

I can't imagine a universe where Dean has to drive that far to find a hot hookup.

 

I don't think it's that tough to imagine. Dean hasn't done all that well with women in several seasons. It's not about his looks, it's about his mental issues. The last woman he was with was that awkward encounter with Suzy, which felt less like something he enjoyed and more like something he checked off a list. I think he was doing all that, from going 8 hours to the app, to distract himself from his other problems. Not once did I feel like he was getting anything out of it. Even the whole part where he was talking about how he didn't pay "cash for ass."

Edited by Pete Martell
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

Wow, that promo was very misleading. Not a bad episode, I thought that most of the threads worked. I actually liked the Hannah resolution, it felt honest and earned, to me.

The Cole resolution was rushed to the point that I'm not really sure he's gone. I half expect him to pop back up in the back half talking about knowing/seeing to much to go back to normal. At the same time I never enjoyed the storyline or character so I'm kind of happy it's over

Rowena was a hoot, I'm really looking forward to seeing more of her. I didn't figure out the mother bit until Crowley walked into the cell. Early on I knew she'd be connected to Crowley but I figured ex/dead wife. I should have remembered that his mother was a witch.

This was a good episode that seemed to tie up a lot of loose ends (and starting 1 new one) and helped move things along. I'm actually happy that we don't have a mytharc hanging over our heads this season, these mini-arcs feel like a bit of relief from the past few years.

Edited by Morrigan2575
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post

I liked this episode but I'll agree they packed a bunch of stuff into it!

 

I'm happy with S10 so far.  I think the main reason is because they're finally letting me like Sam again.  I've spent the last 2 seasons hating the guts that kept Sam living and it's nice to not feel that hate anymore.  I couldn't be a bigger DeanGirl (my family knows Supernatural by what I call it, The Dean Show) but I always liked Sam too - until S8 and S9.  I'm just glad to be able to like him again.

 

I hope that was the end of Cole.  He's boring and makes me bored.  I'm also fine with having Hannah go away, the angel storyline is what?  I don't know what the hell Cas and Hannah's mission actually is so I'm not going to miss Hannah.  I wish the damn writers would sack up and let Cas hang with the boys.  The separate storylines don't work and Cas should not be boring!

 

I was nowhere near clever enough to associate Rowena with Crowley.  I didn't put it together at all so it was a fun twist when Crowley said "Mother?".  I thought Rowena was kinda fun too!

 

Sam saying Dean's dating site name was hilarious.  "Impala67" - I laughed at the preview clip and I laughed again during the show.  That was just funny!

 

And I don't think Dean needs to go 8 minutes out of his way to get lucky, let alone use a dating app and go 8 hours out of his way!  I mean, holy shit, he looks like that all the time!!

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post

 

I don't think it's that tough to imagine. Dean hasn't done all that well with women in several seasons. It's not about his looks, it's about his mental issues.

 

That still makes no sense at all to me. The first thing you notice about a person are their looks. So if he wants a hook-up - anywhere - he just has to sit somewhere and smile. Every town has bars or something. Women can´t look into his head and I`m sure he can manage sitting, smiling, buying a drink and then going off to have sex.

 

That said, the episode was better than I thought. The angel storyline is like valium though. Cole being wrapped up like that was predictable. Of course his father was a monster. Why else would flashback Dean kill him? I find it a bit silly though that in "monster " families, everyone wouldn`t know what species they are, though. Seriously?  

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post

Wow, that promo was very misleading. Not a bad episode, I thought that most of the threads worked. I actually liked the Hannah resolution, it felt honest and earned, to me.

 

I feel sorry for Robert Berens and the woman who played Hannah (Erica Carroll), as some idiots tweeted them about how they supported rape. As always this fandom embarrasses itself.

 

I enjoy most of the MOTW material (frankly I enjoy it more than the myth arc plots), but this episode showed why having so many MOTW episodes with so little plot takes a toll. They had to resolve so many stories and start new ones to the point where everything blurred. 

 

I think Berens is one of about 3 writers on the show who rises above competent, so they dumped a lot in his lap.

 

Overall I liked it, but I'm going to have to watch again.

 

I wish we'd had more leadup to Hannah's choice. The actual scene of her saying goodbye, and her vessel returning, her vessel knowing Cas - I thought this was moving and quiet and powerful in a way the show hasn't been in recent years. But there was no real buildup.

That still makes no sense at all to me. The first thing you notice about a person are their looks. So if he wants a hook-up - anywhere - he just has to sit somewhere and smile. Every town has bars or something. Women can´t look into his head and I`m sure he can manage sitting, smiling, buying a drink and then going off to have sex.

 

He's been so awkward around women in the last few seasons and has been struggling with so much about himself, I think that counteracts some of his natural charisma and good looks. I also haven't seen an indication that he's really been interested in taking this step. I think he did this with the app and driving so far to meet her because it got him out of his head for a while. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

 

He's been so awkward around women in the last few seasons and has been struggling with so much about himself, I think that counteracts some of his natural charisma and good looks.

I didn`t see him as so awkward with woman and I had no problem with the Suzy hookup, didn´t think he was pushy and/or desperate or anything. Both were into the sexytimes and I found it fun.

 

But my point remains that if someone is a certain level of good-looking, they would probably need to slaughter a puppy in front of a woman to put them off. In my experience, nearly nothing counteracts exceptionally good looks. When they want to get laid, they always have an easy time, no matter how awkward or weird they act. And Dean doesn`t even do the latter so much.  

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

I didn't have a problem with the dating site.  Of course Dean could hook up with someone without it, but I can totally see Dean finding a Tinder-like app and being all over it.  Like "wait a second, I put my picture out there and a few lines about myself and hot chicks from all over will flock to me? Where do I sign up?"

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post

I have a feeling we'll see Cole again (I hope we don't), but I can finally understand his storyline now that I know it's wasn't just an attempt at forced conflict. Cole was starting a life that was exactly like the life John had forced on Dean. Dean showed his maturity and strength by convincing Cole to abandon that life, a life that has killed Dean multiple times over and has caused him so much pain psychologically. Dean talking Dean off that path shows what a true hero he is, and gives closure that doesn't involve more death or emo tears. It was rushed and a little flat, but it's still something different for this show, to focus so much on the other side of Dean, and to suggest that even if he doesn't think he has a future, this could be a window into a positive life for him.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

So, Cole's father ate livers? They should talk to the X-files department of the FBI. I'm sure his father might have been a relative of Eugene Victor Tooms.

 

I'm just glad they could talk. Cole probably had learned enough about the Supernatural that it made sense that he would believe Dean. So, now please never show up again. You are a boring character.

 

I guess I must have forgotten that Crowley's mother was a witch. So, that was really funny.

 

I liked and could see how Hannah would get there. I guess it's too late for Jimmy Novak. What with being blown up and disolved in black goo.

 

Or does the vessel get resurrected including soul too?

 

Now, we can have corporeal people in hell again? I hate that. Crowley's hell looks like a "sex torture dungeon" (credit goes to Kevin Tran). Crowley talks about tacky, what about that stupid throne of his?

 

I guess this was really just to get a new plot going?

 

Not bad, but eh.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I was nowhere near clever enough to associate Rowena with Crowley.  I didn't put it together at all so it was a fun twist when Crowley said "Mother?".  I thought Rowena was kinda fun too!

 

And I don't think Dean needs to go 8 minutes out of his way to get lucky, let alone use a dating app and go 8 hours out of his way!  I mean, holy shit, he looks like that all the time!!

With Rowena, for some reason I was just so worried at the end of the episode that the demon had screwed up again and accidentally gotten the now-ex hooker/protege instead. I was mostly relieved that that was not the case... after that relief, I guessed mother after Crowley's long pause. I was thinking "I can't imagine why else he'd be not talking that long, so it's got t be his mom" since Crowley hardly ever stops with the repartee. The only other reason lately seems to be to let someone dig themselves deeper, and then he generally quickly offs them.

 

So, Cole's father ate livers? They should talk to the X-files department of the FBI. I'm sure his father might have been a relative of Eugene Victor Tooms.

 

Oh, those episodes were so damn creepy. Poor Scully. She probably had sporadic nightmares for years over that guy.

Edited by AwesomO4000

Share this post


Link to post

As always this fandom embarrasses itself.

And will there be apologies from these people? Improbable.

I rewatch end and really liked Rowena. And the alley scene was excellent.

Share this post


Link to post

That was meh.

 

My favorite part was Dean's speech to Cole.  Jensen can just skewer my soul with one line reading and man, he did it again with the  'I'm too far gone'.  He meant it.  He believes it's done for him. That just KILLED me. Ugh..

 

I could not stand the Hannah/Cas stuff .  I want Cas back with the boys. It's been long enough. 

 

So did Dean have extra strength to throw Cole through the window?  Or was that just coincidence.  I didn't care for the direction of this episode. The fight scene between Dean and Cole had too many cuts. But at least Dean was kicking ass again

Share this post


Link to post

Ugh, this ep was painful. I was dubious already from the title. "Girls, Girls, Girls," indicated that this episode would be about women. Or, rather, "girls." And on SPN, that's never going to go well. Sure enough, within the first few minutes, we got Dean's "date" showing up in a top that covered very little of her front, and Hannah being awkwardly naked for no reason, and it really started to feel like someone in the writers' room decided to do an episode about how chicks have boobs. They never quite won me back over after that, not that they tried particularly hard. The only other "girls" were a couple of prostitutes who did nothing and only existed to be threatened/abused by men, then rescued long enough that they could (after continuing to do nothing) be manipulated and killed by someone else at a more opportune time for the story. What a crap fest. At least one of them got to take action and do something to affect her own life, but since there was no actual care given to what happens to her now, and we'll never see her again, what does it matter?  I would rather SPN just avoid writing about women at all, if this is consistently all they have to offer on the subject.

 

Hannah's decision was bizarre. After murdering peaceful angels who tried to give up the cause in her unflinching desire to follow orders to the last, she's now going to give up and check out herself? I think it's great that they addressed the human vessel consent issue, but it seemed really out of character for Hannah to make a huge 180 like that. If she couldn't change her mind when angels asked her to, why do it when it was "only" a human's happiness at stake? Has she really been through enough in the past few episodes to warrant this sort of transformation?

 

Rowena was fun, I'll admit. Not fun enough to save the ep, but fun enough that I look forward to seeing her again in a better story.

 

Cole was pointless. Like a Chekov's gun that never went off. Is this really what he was introduced for? If this is the last we see of him, I'll be really disappointed. What a waste of potential.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Robert Singer is flat as a pancake as a director.

 

A few other throwaway observations...

 

Even with the usual female body count, I felt like most of the women in the episode almost seemed real. The prostitute who took the opportunity to stab the pimp to death and then ran out of the room to be sick. The prostitute who ran away from Rowena while she had the chance. The poor woman turned into a dog.

 

I was pleasantly surprised that the guy who was reporting to Crowley wasn't killed. I kept waiting for Crowley to kill him to punish him for his mistakes, and the show would see this as some badass moment. I can tolerate Crowley more when he isn't given this type of faux-edgy material. It makes him seem more like a leader, less like a brat.

 

Seriously though, I can't remember the last time someone used an angel blade/killed a demon and were shocked at the result, the last time this wasn't treated as some typical part of the universe, no big deal. 


Ugh, this ep was painful. I was dubious already from the title. "Girls, Girls, Girls," indicated that this episode would be about women. 

 

Berens said that wasn't the original title, that they changed it. I can't remember what the original was.

Share this post


Link to post

I think Hannah bolted from her vessel because Castiel was not open to a relationship. I mean Hannah hinted a lot at wanting that. 

 

So when she left did she just go back to Heaven as wavelength of celestial intent.

 

And really PLEASE SHOW....get Cas back in the action.

Share this post


Link to post

The angels storyline is so inane and pointless. I always end up fast forwarding through it. Does anyone care about Caroline's infidelity? I'm fine with Castiel and Hannah leaving the show.

Edited by Tony
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Too many plot lines, but I liked the episode anyway.

 

Rowena and Crowley -- what a pair those two are going to be!  Talk about a "mother and child reunion".  

 

Cole, good-bye (I hope) Or maybe he'll start eating livers like his dad?

 

Also good-bye to Hannah, who I actually have come to like.  But I have to agree that angel storyline really wasn't going anywhere.

 

Dean on a dating site?  Seems odd, but he probably figured, heck, why not?  I can see him doing that, just for kicks.

Share this post


Link to post

 

Berens said that wasn't the original title, that they changed it. I can't remember what the original was.

Really? That's amazing. I wonder what title they had that "Girls, Girls, Girls" was considered an improvement!  I mean, could they find a more off-colour title for an episode that was (sort of?) about women being forced into prostitution?

 

Also, how great were all the little nods to forced prostitution being dark/distasteful even for demons? Way to set a bar for evil on your show. These characters have all been to the literal Hell, right?

Share this post


Link to post

 

I continue to be bored by Cas and Hannah.  Can't say I'm sad to see her go.  Maybe Cas can do something interesting now.

 

God, they've been so boring for weeks now--I was pleasantly surprised when she left.  They had zero chemistry. The whole time when she was standing around naked or kissing him I was just thinking, "Why can't this be Meg?  Why do we have to settle for this pointless nonsense?"  Now it makes sense to me, because I think Cas is going to have a crisis and maybe try to find Jimmy's family (I don't really know where they could go with that, because there's no way Cas is leaving the show, but maybe he'll be Jimmy for a few episodes or something). 

 

I liked Rowena, though.  And it was interesting how Dean was sort of Cole's yellow-eyed demon which I'd never really thought about before.  And although I thought that Cole was going to be a Daniel Holtz-like figure this season, I'm okay with Dean getting through to him and basically repairing his psyche.  That was a nice and non-depressing turn of events.

Share this post


Link to post
Hannah's decision was bizarre. After murdering peaceful angels who tried to give up the cause in her unflinching desire to follow orders to the last, she's now going to give up and check out herself? I think it's great that they addressed the human vessel consent issue, but it seemed really out of character for Hannah to make a huge 180 like that. If she couldn't change her mind when angels asked her to, why do it when it was "only" a human's happiness at stake? Has she really been through enough in the past few episodes to warrant this sort of transformation?

 

One thing to consider though is that the "renegade" angels were in host bodies, so if they didn't return to heaven, then they'd be riding these host bodies. Since Hannah was almost finished rounding up all of the angels and returning them, and her run in with her host's past had her feeling guilty about her host, to me it made sense that she decided to leave her host and let her get back to her life. Hannah's whole deal was to return the angels to heaven, so to me, her going back to heaven - even if a little early - wasn't that far-fetched for her thinking.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

This whole episode has really driven home the point that the Angel storyline is beyond useless. The fact that Hannah would choose to go back home (heaven) rather than stay and help out Cas was the final nail in the coffin.

My god, what a pathetic, useless, sad, lonely creature! Why is he still on the show? They don't work on the same stuff anymore. There is no unifying purpose.

Don't want to cast aspersions but perhaps in their overzealous desire and need for Castiel to be at the center of the show with the boys and with Dean especially, the extreme, devoted Cas fans' cheerleading has been counterproductive and has only served to marginalize his character further.

Edited by Ferniesfreckles

Share this post


Link to post

Really? That's amazing. I wonder what title they had that "Girls, Girls, Girls" was considered an improvement!  I mean, could they find a more off-colour title for an episode that was (sort of?) about women being forced into prostitution?

 

Also, how great were all the little nods to forced prostitution being dark/distasteful even for demons? Way to set a bar for evil on your show. These characters have all been to the literal Hell, right?

 

I think it may have been "Let Him Go" or "Let Them Go" or something like that. 

 

I will say that for a show that doesn't scare me very much, some of the gore in this episode was surprisingly effective - mainly the waiter who boiled from the inside out. The last shot of him as they walked out of the restaurant gave me a chill. 

 

And it was nice of the show to give a bit part to that cute guy who made a big splash cosplaying Cas.

 

http://vanconcastiel.tumblr.com/post/103617258964/reallymadscientist-since-i-didnt-see-anyone

 

http://vanconcastiel.tumblr.com/tagged/archive

Share this post


Link to post

Dean looks awfully blank-faced now when he kills.

You know I find it very refreshing that Cole's father was some unknown kind of monster Dean had never run up against before or since. Of course maybe he was just a human who liked to snack on human livers. Which would make him Hannibal Lecter.

The storyline? Well I can buy that Dean tries the dating app if for no other reason than he might not be feeling up to flirting in a bar again after everything.

Share this post


Link to post

That Cole resolution?  I am seriously underwhelmed.  I hope that's not it.  I feel like they left it open with his dad being a monster.  Maybe Cole is a monster too and they just don't know it?  Maybe Sam and Dean will hear word that he went home and killed his family?  There needs to be more!

 

IIRC, Dean said remarks to the effect that wasn't your father, your father was already dead, and I kept him from attacking you or your mother, using Cole's dad's voice was a ploy, etc.

 

It sounded to me like Cole's dad was one of the victims, and was "replaced" in some variation of shapeshifter -style identity theft. Also, I don't think any of the monster's we've seen would attack their own progeny. 

 

So, I don't think Cole is a secret monster baby.

 

Personally, I would be fine with not seeing Cole again, or seeing him incidentally as a hunter on a case, but I suspect we will  see that mystery liver-eating monster before much longer. (Surprise, it's Eugene Tooms).

Edited by Latverian Diplomat

Share this post


Link to post

Holy buckets of plot, Batman!

 

The good: Hannah's gone; Cole's gone; and Dean got a steak.

The bad: the actress playing Rowena is trying way to hard, IMO.

The ugly: For all that "story", my God was it boring.

 

 

I didn't care for the direction of this episode.

 

That's probably because it was directed by Robert Singer, who I think lacks "style.". He does seem to get 'em in on time and under budget, though.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

 

He does seem to get 'em in on time and under budget, though.

Nicely "damning with faint praise"!

 

I don't get Singer.  I think he's got it in him to do well.  His list of episodes. I've highlighted ones that I thought showed exceptionally good direction from a dramatic perspective:

 

 

Supernatural (TV Series) (30 episodes)

- Girls, Girls, Girls (2014)

- Black (2014)

- Bloodlines (2014)

- Road Trip (2014)

- Slumber Party (2013)

- Pac-Man Fever (2013)

- Torn and Frayed (2013)

- We Need to Talk About Kevin (2012)

- Survival of the Fittest (2012)

- The Born-Again Identity (2012)

- Death's Door (2011)

- Defending Your Life (2011)

- The Man Who Knew Too Much (2011)

- Caged Heat (2010)

- The Third Man (2010)

- The Devil You Know (2010)

- Swap Meat (2010)

- The Curious Case of Dean Winchester (2009)

- Sympathy for the Devil (2009)

- When the Levee Breaks (2009)

- Wishful Thinking (2008)

- Monster Movie (2008)

- Long-Distance Call (2008)

- Malleus Maleficarum (2008)

- Bad Day at Black Rock (2007)

- All Hell Breaks Loose: Part 1 (2007)

- Croatoan (2006)

- Bloodlust (2006)

- Salvation (2006)

- Phantom Traveler (2005)

And there's others on this list that worked very well too.  But comparable to "Girls, Girls, Girls", I thought these were relevant. I remember "Road Trip" being particularly well done.  OTOH, having directed 30 out of 202 Supernatural episodes, keeping it from getting workman-like is a real challenge.  Robert Berens hinted at some editing done on this episode post filming.  Maybe the script was a little ambitious and the editing lost some of the glue the episode needed.  Don Koch was the editor (I personally LOVE Nicole Baer).  Certainly the Cas/Boys storyline was only united by theme (consent and choice) and nothing to do with plot.  That didn't help.

Edited by SueB

Share this post


Link to post

I don't get Singer.  I think he's got it in him to do well.  His list of episodes. I've highlighted ones that I thought showed exceptionally good direction from a dramatic perspective:

 

Personally, the only episode Singer has directed that I felt was visually interesting was Monster Movie. I think he pushes the dramatic buttons--oh, boy does he--but, in my mind, he over pushes them to the point they become melodrama. Road Trip and especially Croatoan are examples of this in my mind. However, I did think he did pretty good holding back the melodrama with At Death's Door, but I wouldn't say it was an especially creative looking episode either. He's a very by the numbers director, IMO. Never seems to take chances and rarely do I see a creative spark or anything outside of the box visually to his work. I think television used to love this kind of director--here's the playbook, run the plays, it's simple--so he's getting the job done, I just prefer to watch something visually interesting is all. And, I adore ingenuity, as well.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Other topics to discuss*:

 

- The empowerment of women: I thought it was actually VERY well done. First we have the classic damsel but then she pokes out the bad guy's eye with her heel!  That got an audible "you go, girl!".  Yes, he was a demon but she didn't know that. I think she went out fighting, not remotely weak.  "Shaylene" killed her tormentor. The poor blonde in the tiger print got screwed by Rowena but she was still talking "I can't!" (stop what she was doing) while attacking Sam. The brunette stood up for herself (to a witch who had already shown herself to be very powerful).  And Rowena? She's a rock star IMO.  Killing the pimp in a somewhat slimey fashion was just desserts. Having no f*cks to give about what others thinks about her (the waiter, the Coven, Dean, Crowley). I see where Crowley gets his with and backbone.  I think Berens used the juxtaposition of typically poorly treated women (scantily clad prostitutes) and showed they had real personality and real agency when given a chance.

 

- The brothel: I liked how Crowley put it: "I'm evil. That's just tacky."  So it's not that the most evil thing on the planet is a brothel.  It's that he has a code (he's been very consistent about it) regarding how deals are made.  This is beneath him -- these people know they are selling their soul but there's a deception going on because they are using forced prostitutes to conduct the sale.

 

- Hannah: I think Hannah left because Caroline's pain was so strong that she realized she no longer had her consent.  They made a point that recovering rogue angels was winding up. So she was returning to Heaven soon anyway.  But the decision to leave her host meant that she was totally committed to not returning (whereas before she popped back and forth).  If there are Angels still holding vessels, I hope she convinces them to let them go.

 

- Hannah & Cas: I think the nude scene was not gratuitous and TOTALLY intentional by Hannah.  She had feelings for Cas and she was seducing him (in her own way).  Her 'what, you are bothered by little old me?' bit was her kind of calling out Cas for him saying "no relationship".  I think she made it clear that part of her decision to return to a "multidimensional being of celestial intent" was her realizing that being around humans was causing her to act on human-like emotions.  And the Caroline's emotions came thru and it just made her nauseous.  The WRONGNESS of it all.  She was starting to pursue a personal agenda with Cas while her vessel's life was shattered.

 

- Cas: Oy, Cas.  It is so freakin' hard to see him like this.  Alone. There was a real moment of heat in that kiss with Hannah. He's his own person now. I'm 100% certain Jimmy is gone. But knowing how Jimmy was sacrificed for Cas, in view of Hannah's decision, really hit home for Cas this episode.  I think Hannah's example put his own choices under a microscope and it made for a very ugly picture.  He truly believes in protecting humans and his mission. But the sacrifice was an awful one. Note: Cas was dealing with the Apocalypse and not our enlightened Cas at the time he took on Jimmy permanently.  That priority is much easier to understand than clean-up of rogue angels.

 

Overall, I thought the entire episode had the themes of "consent and choice".

Consent shown to matter (and that violation of it is wrong):

- The women were forced into prostitution

- Rowena using the blonde as a diversion

- Caroline no longer wanted to be Hannah's vessel

Choice - big ones were made:

- Hannah to give up her mission

- Cole to give up his revenge (that's HUGE BTW, given the premise of the show).

- First the bad choice of the two prostitutes to become witches (seeking power) and then the positive choice of the brunette 'student' running away from Rowena

- Dean putting his life in Cole's hands to get him to actually LISTEN. That was freakin' brave. And although Dean is typically suicidal on a good day, I don't think that was the case here.  I didn't see Dean looking to die right then. He really wanted to clean up the mess he made.  I was so happy the show gave him that opportunity to do a heroic thing and correct ONE thing.  This is the kind of healing Dean needs and to have it be based on a choice he made was all kinds of awesome IMO.

 

*Pardon for the back to back-ish large posting.  I'm getting ready to travel and wanted to post now in case I don't get time later.  The second rewatch was really valuable for me. It helped me overlook the choppiness and see some of the gems.

Edited by SueB
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post

Nicely "damning with faint praise"!

 

I don't get Singer.  I think he's got it in him to do well.  His list of episodes. I've highlighted ones that I thought showed exceptionally good direction from a dramatic perspective:

 

And there's others on this list that worked very well too.  But comparable to "Girls, Girls, Girls", I thought these were relevant. I remember "Road Trip" being particularly well done.  OTOH, having directed 30 out of 202 Supernatural episodes, keeping it from getting workman-like is a real challenge.  Robert Berens hinted at some editing done on this episode post filming.  Maybe the script was a little ambitious and the editing lost some of the glue the episode needed.  Don Koch was the editor (I personally LOVE Nicole Baer).  Certainly the Cas/Boys storyline was only united by theme (consent and choice) and nothing to do with plot.  That didn't help.

 

I don't think it was a big problem that Cas had a story totally separate from Sam and Dean (most of my favorite Cas episodes last season had this, including one Berens wrote), but they just packed way too much into this one episode. The Hannah stuff should have been two episodes, at least. 

 

I think Berens episodes, as much as I enjoy them (as I think they're very unique for the show, and are sometimes very contemplative and suggest an inner life for the characters), often have sluggish pacing. That + so many story threads produces some wear. I do hope we get to find out what the edits were.

 

Singer directs for the cheap seats. His work in "Torn & Frayed" (endless shots of torture porn, and loltastic closeups of Mark Sheppard) was an all time low. I remember a beautiful shot in "Road Trip" (Dean standing at the window as Crowley was working on Sam) and being flabbergasted to realize Singer had directed the episode.

Share this post


Link to post

I generally don't care for Singer directed episodes.  I think he is not visually interesting but I think he does good work with the actors and I usually find the acting in his episodes are what I like more than the general look and feel. I think he has benefitted from directing some of the better written episodes   I like bits and pieces of his episodes but more often than not I'm usually MEH about them overall.

 

Road Trip really bothered me because I thought the opening scene with Dean freaking out and tossing the library in the lair way overdone. Jensen is such a strong actor that IMO the pan around camera and the Bob Seger music cue was just overkill. I would have preferred no music or some lovely tones from Christopher Lennertz. 

 

The previous fight scene in Riechenbach was great so I was rather disappointed with the choppiness of this one.  And I really am tired of the use of the go pro camera angles.  I don't need that to get that someone is in peril. 

Share this post


Link to post

As to the agency of the women in this episode, I feel like it was an adolescent boys view of strong women. 

 

Sure the hookers got their licks in, so to speak. But they ended up dead anyway, so what is the message here? It's pointless to fight back? If you fight back but die anyway it's noble? 
 

I was hoping that Rowena had been the madame of the brothel and the witches were there of their own accord as hookers. That would have been way more interesting than a witch saving these poor girls from the Big Bad Wolves. 

 

My biggest problem was the abusive demon pimp was Latino. Ooff. Really show? Hell I guess I should be glad it wasn't the black guy that was the pimp. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Other topics to discuss*:

 

- The empowerment of women: I thought it was actually VERY well done. First we have the classic damsel but then she pokes out the bad guy's eye with her heel!  That got an audible "you go, girl!".  Yes, he was a demon but she didn't know that. I think she went out fighting, not remotely weak.  "Shaylene" killed her tormentor. The poor blonde in the tiger print got screwed by Rowena but she was still talking "I can't!" (stop what she was doing) while attacking Sam. The brunette stood up for herself (to a witch who had already shown herself to be very powerful).  And Rowena? She's a rock star IMO.  Killing the pimp in a somewhat slimey fashion was just desserts. Having no f*cks to give about what others thinks about her (the waiter, the Coven, Dean, Crowley). I see where Crowley gets his with and backbone.  I think Berens used the juxtaposition of typically poorly treated women (scantily clad prostitutes) and showed they had real personality and real agency when given a chance.

 

- Cas: Oy, Cas.  It is so freakin' hard to see him like this.  Alone. There was a real moment of heat in that kiss with Hannah. He's his own person now. I'm 100% certain Jimmy is gone. But knowing how Jimmy was sacrificed for Cas, in view of Hannah's decision, really hit home for Cas this episode.  I think Hannah's example put his own choices under a microscope and it made for a very ugly picture.  He truly believes in protecting humans and his mission. But the sacrifice was an awful one. Note: Cas was dealing with the Apocalypse and not our enlightened Cas at the time he took on Jimmy permanently.  That priority is much easier to understand than clean-up of rogue angels.

 

I can see why people were put off by the depiction of sex workers, and that women had to die, but I agree that I do think Berens was trying to put some different spins on the characters. Stuff like Shaylene stabbing the demon and then running out in horror was a real surprise to me.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about Rowena yet. At first I thought she was a little cringey and the camera angles kept making me wonder if she'd had a nose job, but as the episode passed I did start to enjoy her. She's an interesting character, and her mentality of, "I'm going to liberate you...if you do what I want," is very true to life. I just wish they'd waited longer to reunite her with Crowley.

 

I saw some fans saying that Cas' comments were OOC and he loves humanity, but I don't think he's ever taken the time to understand what he did to Jimmy, the lengthy process of manipulating Jimmy into saying yes. I don't exactly trust the show to handle it, but I'm glad it's going to be addressed. 

Sure the hookers got their licks in, so to speak. But they ended up dead anyway, so what is the message here? It's pointless to fight back? If you fight back but die anyway it's noble? 

 

Two of them survived.

Share this post


Link to post

Other topics to discuss*:

 

- The empowerment of women: I thought it was actually VERY well done. First we have the classic damsel but then she pokes out the bad guy's eye with her heel!  That got an audible "you go, girl!".  Yes, he was a demon but she didn't know that. I think she went out fighting, not remotely weak.  "Shaylene" killed her tormentor. The poor blonde in the tiger print got screwed by Rowena but she was still talking "I can't!" (stop what she was doing) while attacking Sam. The brunette stood up for herself (to a witch who had already shown herself to be very powerful).  And Rowena? She's a rock star IMO.  Killing the pimp in a somewhat slimey fashion was just desserts. Having no f*cks to give about what others thinks about her (the waiter, the Coven, Dean, Crowley). I see where Crowley gets his with and backbone.  I think Berens used the juxtaposition of typically poorly treated women (scantily clad prostitutes) and showed they had real personality and real agency when given a chance.

 

 I don't know, I felt like they were the molded candy coating of characters that needed some filling. While I didn't find it offensive or anything, I also didn't think there was much deep thought put into it either. If the show really had a desire to explore the empowerment of women they maybe should have stepped outside the range of the typical. Not all sex workers are victims, nor are all sex workers female. I think the show confuses kick-ass and physically strong with strength of character and actual empowerment. It just feels like the show has gotten so much backlash for being misogynistic (which was never my viewpoint) so they tried way to hard to show everyone that they aren't. What's sad is that makes it kinda misogynistic in my mind.

Share this post


Link to post

Sure the hookers got their licks in, so to speak. But they ended up dead anyway, so what is the message here? It's pointless to fight back? If you fight back but die anyway it's noble?

 

Two of them survived.

 

 

Two survived but not from their own agency really. 

 

The first blonde one fought back and was killed anyway.  If she hadn't fought back, maybe she would still be alive if beaten to a pulp as a message to the others. Hard to say but it's a pretty terrible outcome for her either way. 

 

Shaylene survived because Dean saved her. She might have killed the demon but her killing the demon isn't what saved her.  She couldn't have killed him if he wasn't in the Devil's Trap that Dean and Sam set for him. I would imagine she was going to be alive as long as she did what Raul the Demon Pimp wanted her to do. Not a ton of agency for her either.

 

Rowena rescued the other two but the blonde one was turned into an attack dog against her will and died because of that.  NO agency for that poor girl even from a person that she believed was going to help change her life.

 

The brunette that knocked out Rowena is the only one that really saved herself and even that was questionable since Rowena came to her aid in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post

I found it amusing that Raoul was the pimp.  He sure didn't look like a gay dragon.  ;-)

 

Otherwise, this was a filler episode of the worst kind.  It's like they had a checklist.  

 

  1. Wrap up Hannah's story.
  2. Wrap up Cole's.
  3. Set up Crowley's next with his mother.
  4. Set up Castiel's

    with Jimmy's daughter Claire

    .

 

It was all pretty anti-climactic.  Well, except for the end, when I admit I fist-pumped.  So nice to be right about this show for a change.  ;-)

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

 I don't know, I felt like they were the molded candy coating of characters that needed some filling. While I didn't find it offensive or anything, I also didn't think there was much deep thought put into it either. If the show really had a desire to explore the empowerment of women they maybe should have stepped outside the range of the typical. Not all sex workers are victims, nor are all sex workers female. I think the show confuses kick-ass and physically strong with strength of character and actual empowerment. It just feels like the show has gotten so much backlash for being misogynistic (which was never my viewpoint) so they tried way to hard to show everyone that they aren't. What's sad is that makes it kinda misogynistic in my mind.

 

I kind of agree here.  That's why it's adolescent.  I think they think more women = strong women which is not true.  And I agree that I don't think the show is misogynistic at heart. I don't think the main characters actually HATE women nor do I think the showrunners HATE women.

Share this post


Link to post

Otherwise, this was a filler episode of the worst kind.  It's like they had a checklist.  

 

Filler episodes tend to not have checklists. They mark time. If anything it was filler episodes that helped make this one so overstuffed.

Two survived but not from their own agency really. 

 

The first blonde one fought back and was killed anyway.  If she hadn't fought back, maybe she would still be alive if beaten to a pulp as a message to the others. Hard to say but it's a pretty terrible outcome for her either way. 

 

Shaylene survived because Dean saved her. She might have killed the demon but her killing the demon isn't what saved her.  She couldn't have killed him if he wasn't in the Devil's Trap that Dean and Sam set for him. I would imagine she was going to be alive as long as she did what Raul the Demon Pimp wanted her to do. Not a ton of agency for her either.

 

Rowena rescued the other two but the blonde one was turned into an attack dog against her will and died because of that.  NO agency for that poor girl even from a person that she believed was going to help change her life.

 

The brunette that knocked out Rowena is the only one that really saved herself and even that was questionable since Rowena came to her aid in the first place.

 

Ultimately few of the characters on the show have agency. Even Dean and Sam rarely do. I'm not saying the women were very strong, I just think that the show did have a little variety and some of the women got to live and hopefully have better lives. Comparing this to something like "Malleus Malificarum," where the show went out of its way to make sure every woman died, I think it's an improvement.

Edited by Pete Martell

Share this post


Link to post

So did Dean have extra strength to throw Cole through the window?  Or was that just coincidence.  I didn't care for the direction of this episode. The fight scene between Dean and Cole had too many cuts. But at least Dean was kicking ass again

 

This was the only time I was really hyper-aware of the direction/editing.  It was really hard to follow what was going on with the fight which is a shame because usually Dean's fights are done so well.  The first fight with Cole and the one where he's fighting in Cane's kitchen (while Cane shucks corn--heh) were two great examples of how well they can do a fight scene. Jensen's skill plus the stunt coordination is great on it's own--there's no need for camera tricks to make it more interesting.  (Am I the only one who'd like to see Dean fight Christian Kane's character from Leverage?  Just me?  Okay.)

 

I don't know if it's a Singer episode, but there's another one (I can't remember off hand which one) where the camera does extreme closeups on everyone.  I like looking at Dean's face as much as the next girl but I don't want the camera up his nose.  As much as it irked me, I guess I'll take a choppy fight scene over extreme closeups.

 

For the most part I was pleased with this episode.  I'm definitely liking this season more than the previous one.  Last season sometimes felt like a chore to watch and when this season started I didn't watch the first 5 shows because I was afraid it would suck and I didn't want to break up with it.  But I finally binged on them all and now I'm looking forward to each episode again.  Hopefully they keep on this track.

Share this post


Link to post

Filler episodes tend to not have checklists. They mark time. If anything it was filler episodes that helped make this one so overstuffed.

 

While not a filler episode in the usual sense of the word, for me, it was.  While they dealt with everyone's storylines (except perhaps Sam), it didn't feel like anything of consequence happened.  

 

Maybe it's that Cole and Hannah's storylines felt like filler.  It's really too early to say, but right now, neither seemed to have any impact on the season.  (Off to the speculation thread.)

Share this post


Link to post

I kind of agree here.  That's why it's adolescent.  I think they think more women = strong women which is not true.  And I agree that I don't think the show is misogynistic at heart. I don't think the main characters actually HATE women nor do I think the showrunners HATE women.

I don't think the showrunners hate women, but I think some of them have little respect or understanding for women. If they did they would allow for more diverse portrayals of women, wouldn't repeatedly bring back longtime popular female characters just for shock value deaths, and wouldn't continue to use slurs that made some of the actresses (like Alaina Huffman) uncomfortable. 

 

I don't know if they think more women = strong women (last week's episode had 4 women and they weren't written as being strong), but I do think they have responded to the criticism by trying to diversify a little. For instance, Kate and her sister got the sibling angst parallels men usually get. Rowena is a little different for the show. You have attempts to write a POV for some of the hookup characters, like Ann-Marie in the season premiere. 

 

One of the problems is these women are still written within a narrow perspective. Even if Ann-Marie stood up for herself, we still last saw her with Demon Dean calling her a skank. Hannah made so many brave choices, yet she will likely be remembered for throwing herself at Cas. Rowena still has to be someone's mother. 

 

I don't envy the show. I know a lot of Dean/Cas fans and Cas fans would have likely hated Hannah even if the show had kept it totally platonic. I know there will be a lot of hate for the episode next week and people will say Jody and Donna should die and this show is about the brothers. 

 

But there are some basic things they could do that would really improve the show's treatment of women, and it rarely happens. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I found it amusing that Raoul was the pimp.  He sure didn't look like a gay dragon.  ;-)

 

How is it possible I missed this? Good catch DD!

 

 

I don't know if they think more women = strong women (last week's episode had 4 women and they weren't written as being strong), but I do think they have responded to the criticism by trying to diversify a little. For instance, Kate and her sister got the sibling angst parallels men usually get. Rowena is a little different for the show. You have attempts to write a POV for some of the hookup characters, like Ann-Marie in the season premiere. 

 

I guess it's all perspective, I felt like Rowena was more of the same they've been trotting around since S1. She's another Meg or Ruby in my mind. Another one-note snarky woman who can kick ass at times, but mostly stands around quipping at everyone. Maybe she'll turn into a character of substance, but at this point she seems pretty basic to me. For me, it's not whether they live or die in the end, it's what they do while they're here.

 

I will agree with you that Anne Marie was something different for this show though.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

I think the show does listen to criticism. I'm not always a fan of that as I think Cas is separated from the boys because of Destiel shipping. No matter what they choose here they cannot win. If he's with the boys and there is no plan in canon for anything but friends (a fairly clear position the show has taken) then they are accused of queer baiting. If they have him separate, they are accused of marginalizing the character. I wish they could tell the story as they would like in this regard.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Customize font-size